From "As Cardinals Prepare to Elect a Pope, One Motto Is ‘Unity.’ That’s Divisive. Some see the byword as a rallying call in a conservative campaign to reverse Francis’ push for a more inclusive church" (NYT).
ADDED: For the annals of Things I Asked Grok: The "unity" the cardinals are considering is unity within the Catholic Church (at the cost of alienating some who are outside of the Catholic Church), right? But if the Church leans instead toward "diversity" of opinion (on social issues, etc), is that a better or a worse strategy for attracting newcomers? What's the point of the Church if it's an amalgam of what various people believe instead of a strong and required set of beliefs?
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52 comments:
The twentysomethings at NYT are trying to pressure cardinals to elect another Hawaiian judge pope. Quelle suprise…
Rome started its long slide into oblivion when it started believing its own doctrines.
In the old days, the popes could care less what anyone believed, as long as the money kept coming in. So the French kings could basically act like mini-popes, all sorts of rules could be bent for powerful local nobles and notables, and the church would cut all kinds of deals with governments just to stay in business. I am mostly talking about the renaissance and counter-reformation periods, but it continues today. The RC's have anything left at all in the US because they've become de facto Lutheran: you can get divorced, oops, annulled, at the drop of a hat, five people show up for confession but fifty for communion, obvious same-sex couples are some of the most dedicated mass attendees, and all kinds of dispensations are given for married priests. Or in Red China, the church has a de-facto concordat about the appointment of bishops. Even in the Global South (tm), where supposedly the church is strong, lots of compromises get made on de-facto polygamy and other local cultural practices. Even liberation theology can be seen as yet another effort to go with the flow and stay relevant - although in that case it turned out the church was backing the wrong horse.
You may think these compromises undercut the RCC's power, but they're the only things that let it keep any power at all. When the church holds the line on doctrines and discipline is when people leave it in droves. Wojtyla brought down the Iron Curtain, but he put up a huge wall against ecumenism. Ratzinger never really came down from his rarefied world of theology. Bergoglio wanted to reach out, but was still making the mistake of thinking doctrines matter - just from the other side.
These guys could learn from Elizabeth I's via media, but they won't.
JSM
Satan seems to have been hired as the editor in chief of the NYT.
Here’s why the Church survives. It’s God’s Divine Will. True believers are lead by God’s Holy Spirit. John Mosby’s comment is historically accurate. Why did that happen? It was God’s Permissive Will that leads us through dark times. Remember, it’s written that God will do what He will do for His Glory. Diversity is fine in it’s proper context, but it cannot be held up as a god replacing God’s Truth. He is sovereign and His Will, His plan, is what is Best for all humankind. Our good intentions will never trump the Best God wants, and will give, to all His children. Keep the faith. Amen? Amen!
Getting the inside scoop on the Roman Catholic Church via the NYT quoting a Canadian Cardinal? What a waste of time, ink, paper and bytes.
It’s clear that the lefties seek to wreck the Catholic Church the way they have wrecked the mainline Protestant denominations which are, for the most part, in blue-haired death rattle. The pews are dusty and smell of old white lady and Depends.
- Krumhorn
“Unity is divisive” said the Archbishop of Newspeak at the Holy See.
Inclusion always seems to drive people out of an organization.
People calling for unity, always seem to mean, "shut up, and just do it my way."
I encountered a bit of poetry in a Religious Studies course at university:
"He drew a circle that shut me out-
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and I had the wit to win:
We drew a circle and took him In!" (Edwin Markham)
Sounds nice in theory, but in practice, the ecumenists have surrendered to the radicals. That, in turn, brought about cancel culture and the use of ridicule to steamroll anyone who dares to oppose the mouvement du jour.
Making unity a prime objective ignores the danger of uniting around the wrong thing.
The complete secularization of the Catholic Church continues apace with traditionalists of today convinced Francis was the apogee. Vatican II gave umph to the crowd crowing "you can't tell them that's a sin and definitely can't include the 'don't do it anymore' bit". Anyway, Francis is pope number 266 so all this durm and strang is moot anyway. Things are going to get reeeally interesting now. ;)
Well wielded quotes of Bishop Fulton Sheen in this -
https://catholicstand.com/fulton-j-sheen-america-suffering-tolerance/
Times like these ache for the return of Bernard McGuirk. He’d tear the Vatican a new one.
Is unity bullshit like civility bullshit?
@Fandor
Amen.
Progs gotta prog.
It’s not a slippery slope; it’s a cliff.
Those like Cardinal Czerny put priority on another word: Diversity...."
Isn’t a likely conservative choice a black cardinal from Guinea?
I agree that “unity” is not a positive value, especially at the beginning of the discussion. But I suspect there is little else we would agree on. For instance, “diversity” is also not a positive value.
The Catholic Church should focus on Catholic teachings and leave the hippie bullshit for the fringe sects that won’t last very long.
Yeah. Who wants to unite?? Progressives sure don't.
Wince: “ Those like Cardinal Czerny put priority on another word: Diversity...." / Isn’t a likely conservative choice a black cardinal from Guinea?”
Ironically, Czerny means black.
JSM
Whether or not "unity" is divisive, the election of a new pope is a democratic endeavor which requires a majority. However, I appreciate the NYT's effort to make democratic norms seem conservative.
Christ prayed to the Father that his followers “may be one”. John 17:21. Diversity is the starting reality, but unity of motive and purpose is surely the aspiration.
Yesterday, before our Saturday service, I asked my pastor if he submitted his name for Pope. He said, “Bob, we’re Lutherans.” I responded, “They went with a non-Catholic last time.”
"put priority on another word: Diversity...." Cuz that's the real meaning of "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church." Once progs are inside the walls, forget it.
Over simplification by a former Catholic here.
The Pope AIN'T the mayor of Vatican City.
He is, supposedly, Gods emissary/spokesperson. All this push and pull of internal politics give lie to that foundational claim by the RCs.
The push to be more inclusive has done wonders for the mainline Protestant churches.
“A Church that adapts herself to the world in order to please it is not a Church that converts the world, but a Church that is converted by the world”
Ratzinger
A survey indicates that 80% of the seminarians are conservative. This is a flip from the 60’s and 70’s where 70% of seminarians were moderates and liberals.
Our parish typically has newly ordained Priests cycle through for a two, to three year assignment. For at least the last decade they have all focused on philosophy, tradition, and personal salvation. Not a Father Pfleger in the bunch.
There's the Faith, and then there's the Church. The Church is a human institution, so by definition is flawed.
I have notice the increase in Islam in Western countries and why so many are attracted to that faith that are not Muslims. I think it is the strict laws and black and white doctrines. Those people want certainty, not everything goes. Catholicism was very doctrinaire and strict yet over the last few decades it has changed to a more liberal doctrine. Gay sex is Ok so is woman in the church. Not saying this is wrong. but Protestants went down that road and lost adherents. As Bob B said the Roman Catholics went for non Catholic last time.
@randomizer 6:48 am I completely agree with you re 'unity' as a cover for 'we will all do it my way'.
Make 'Is the Pope Catholic?" a sarcastic joke again.
Sebastian (hope the arrow wounds are healing): ""put priority on another word: Diversity...." Cuz that's the real meaning of "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.""
Small-c catholic actually does mean diverse. The non-RC churches still recite that part of the Nicene Creed because they believe they are part of one small-c catholic Church.
JSM
In Conclave the cardinals get more "diversity" than they bargained for, but the surprise ending was less of a surprise than finding out that John Lithgow was still alive.
This is a religion, goddamit. We can’t have any of this unity crap. We need division and hate, that’s more fun.
“What's the point of the Church if it's an amalgam of what various people believe instead of a strong and required set of beliefs?”
There is none. That’s why the Methodist church (to single out just one) has gone pfft.
By “inclusive church” the NYT means one that supports an agenda preferred by progressive atheists.
Richard McBrien in his Lives of the Popes argued that very, if not most, often, the next pope would be opposite the previous one.
Christianity has to do only and entirely with Jesus' message, much of it summed up in his Sermon on the Mount. Jesus' message, by the view of many today, falls under "leftist" thinking, in that it calls for serving the poor, weak, and ill, and, well, everyone. Anyone claiming Christianity is a means of gaining "prosperity" (as the current flock of grifter preachers call it) is a lie.
Jesus' message, by the view of many today, falls under "leftist" thinking, in that it calls for serving the poor, weak, and ill, and, well, everyone.
Cook is, as usual, smugly confident of his virtue. He fails to grasp that most non-lefties embrace the message of Jesus as a matter of character and compass heading; whereas lefties embrace it as a matter of secular politics and power. The difference, as Trump would say, is HUUUUUGE. Massive. Real big.
- Krumhorn
Slight correction: YUUUUUGE.
A survey indicates that 80% of the seminarians are conservative. This is a flip from the 60’s and 70’s where 70% of seminarians were moderates and liberals.
The laity wants it too. The Latin Mass used to pack people in to the rafters before the "Red Pope" Bergoglio practically abolished it.
The NYT's and MSM in general have always disliked Christianity and the Catholic Church. If you're a Catholic Archbishop or Priest and they're praising you, its not a good sign.
I was blown away NPR's coverage of the Pope's death and funeral. They really loved him - he was their kinda Pope! Of course, the NPR news anchors kept asking the news commenters /analysts "For non-Catholics, could you please explain...."
My brother, a lapsed Catholic so far from the faith that he now enjoys conspiracy theories about the Church, tells me that a 15th Century saint prophesied every future Pope up to the end of times. And that Francis was the penultimate Pope before the Apocalypse, with the next and final being foretold as "the Dark Pope." I am also aware that there is a push to have an African Cardinal elevated to Pope, as the Church in Africa is both fairly traditional but also more evangelical than most of the rest of the world. So we have that going for us, which is nice.
Mosby, catholic with a small "c" does not mean diverse, it means universal. There's quite a difference.
By the way, Mosby, I enjoy your thoughtful posts. I am reading "The Bad Popes (The Mad, Bad and Ugly of Italian History)" by E.R. Chamberlin. Should be required reading in every theology class in Catholic high schools (per this Jesuit-educated RC).
Thanks, Marty! What do you feel like doin’ tonight?
(Sorry if I’m the 36th person to say that….)
JSM
‘Anyone claiming Christianity is a means of gaining "prosperity" (as the current flock of grifter preachers call it) is a lie.“
Sure, being kind, taking some effort to educate your kids on some moral path. Avoiding drugs, having stable relationships with family. Supporting yourself by doing both the humble and exciting parts of life. That has nothing to do with prosperity, to be prosperous you need to be like soros and corner the British Pound and cause economic misery.
Prosperity is found in peacefully tending your own garden.
Take a look back and see the "Catholics" up in here calling Francis a Commie and a liberal DEI candidte(you know doing Jesus work) AND calling the guy out because a lot of what Jesus did doesnt seem to get approval in this day and age with the same posters. Satan get behind me or in cases that work for me and my agenda , you go first..Sad..people... :(Forgive them Father (too bad they do know what they do)
Unity? Sounds like lefty groupthink, doesn’t it?
Annals of Unity in the Catholic Church
At one time the Arian heresy had practically taken over the Church but the Pope was holding out. So one of the Arian Cardinals had him murdered and then controlled the conclave and had himself elected Pope. But then he abandoned the Arian heresy and led the Church away from it to unity with the truth.
Wild swan: are you referring to Liberius?
JSM
Looking for insight into the life of God's Holy Church in the pages of the NYT is foolishness. (I have very little respect for the Michael Czernys of the Franciscan world, so his presence isn't good bait.)
Progressive Christianity (PC) is an oxymoron.
Teh Dinky-types we will always have with us.
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