"No women are nominated for Artist of the Year at next month's ceremony, which has sparked fury among music fans. The BRITs changed their format last year to remove the gendered awards, which Adele issued a jibe at as she picked up its first ever non-gendered gong. While Sam welcomed the axing of the gendered awards - which came some years after they came out as non-binary - the Gloria hitmaker has branded the lack of female talent celebrated in the category 'frustrating.'"
If Adele won last year, what's the problem? Why should music be divided into male and female?
Here's Sam Smith singing "Gloria" on "Saturday Night Live" 2 days ago:
Somehow, somebody decided they needed a woman's body sprawled out in the foreground while Smith sang, and somehow that body ended up being Sharon Stone.
The hell? What's progressive? It's totally retrograde.
She's all lit up and the singers are in the shadows and black cloaked. For a while, you wonder, where's Sam Smith? Finally, maybe 2 minutes in, Smith emerges and is lit up, but Stone is still in the foreground, she's more lit up, and she rises and emotes for the camera.
How did this happen, and how do they explain the gender politics of this mess? And by "they," I mean everyone involved, not just "they," Sam Smith.
(Speaking of last Saturday's "SNL," I recommend the sketch "The Black Lotus" to anyone who's seen the new season of "The White Lotus." The impersonations are especially good.)
ADDED: My question "Why should music be divided into male and female?" needs to be a poll. Check multiple options if you want (and put any additional ideas in the comments).
PLUS: I realize I left out the most important reason for having separate categories: Because our response to music is itself gendered, so the nomination process is inherently biased. You need 2 categories to eliminate the effect of known and accepted bias. This bias is not a problem. It's nothing we need to rise above. Our own emotions — our sexual feelings — are a necessary part ofthe appreciation of music.
All my life, I have preferred to listen to male singers. Spotify's list of my "Top Songs 2022" is 100% male. That's not a problem. That's my nervous system doing its thing. I'm glad I'm alive. I'm glad I have feelings like this. There's nothing to overcome. It the way sex works and the way music works.
I'm not saying all heterosexual women prefer to listen to male singers. I remember having a discussion about this with my sister long ago, some time in the 60s when her favorite singers were female and mine were, as I've said, male. She said it was because she liked boys and they were singing about boys. I said but I want the boy singing to me, not these rival girls going on about their boy.
Either way, it's highly gendered. Whether it's a love song or not, music has a sexual dimension. Those who make decisions about nominees and winners are themselves sexual beings — male, female, nonbinary, gay, straight, etc. etc. It doesn't matter what they are: They are necessarily biased. So keep the 2 categories so this positive aspect of music is channeled properly.
They don't need to change everything to accommodate the more complexly gendered participants like Sam Smith. Let Smith designate which of the 2 categories Smith wants to compete in. That's enough respectful deference.
Why do we need separate men’s and women’s collegiate and professional athletics? Competition is point of athletics so let everyone compete with the best excelling whether they are men, women or transgender.
My vote - To recognize that the singing voices of male and female singers are different and have different ranges and qualities.
I do think that gender-specific acting categories should be eliminated. Awards are about the only time I see "actress" when referring to females. Now, they're also usually called "actors." Acting awards should instead be separated into genre or type of material being performed - comedy, drama, action, etc.
Of course, probably won't ever do that because women would never win for a comedy performance.
Sharon Stone is sixty three years old. You can celebrate the sexuality of sixty three year old women. It's sexist and wrong, possibly even criminally wrong, to notice the good looks of a woman under twenty......Depending on the song, both the age and the sex of the singer matters. Somewhere Over the Rainbow is not a song meant for Mick Jagger. Sixteen Tons is not a song for Judy Garland.
Years ago I scanned the music shelf of a male friend. I noted that a solid 90% to 95% of his stuff was from male artists or vocalists. Men gravitate to the voices in their head, but also to watching female jiggle shows. Women gravitate to the voices in their head and to Barbie Doll dress up (e.g., Madonna, Lady Gaga).
Sort these bands into their core fanbases by biological sex and self-identified gender:
The idea should be to give as many awards as possible. If gender isn't appropriate, they could hreak it down like opera singing, natural singing pitch. There aren't that many Axl Roses or Mariah Careys with gigantic singing ranges that have great songs at all ranges.
"Years ago I scanned the music shelf of a male friend. I noted that a solid 90% to 95% of his stuff was from male artists or vocalists. Men gravitate to the voices in their head, but also to watching female jiggle shows. Women gravitate to the voices in their head and to Barbie Doll dress up (e.g., Madonna, Lady Gaga)."
I've always listened to male voices more than female. In the 60s (my most active decade for listening to new things), I listened to the 4 Seasons, The Beatles, The Byrds, The Kinks, The Who, Bob Dylan, Donovan, The Rolling Stones, etc. etc. Far more male than female. I certainly wasn't looking for someone singing in a voice that felt like me talking to myself. I wanted someone else "talking" to me. A relationship!
While male and female have the ability to play on an even playing field (in this context), I would contend that they have independent bell-curves of ability. Both men and women, when taken as an average, are the same. When trying to pick ‘the best’ who dominates at the upper end of the bell-curve?
“While Sam welcomed the axing of the gendered awards - which came some years after they came out as non-binary -“ When I first read this I thought the “they” was referring to the awards. I always found diagramming sentences a challenge. Now even more difficult.
Enigma said... Voices in the head. Keep the sexes in obvious traditional roles or they'll naturally and instinctively find their own type. 1/23/23, 6:33 AM
I don’t think the voices in the head are natural. These designations have been defined by advertisers to sell products and it works. But actually you can listen to any music you like.
Has anyone significant in music ever considered the winning of a Grammy a major achievement? I have yet to read a David Crosby obituary that referenced his Grammy success. If he never won one (I have no idea), is that an Outrageous Slight or an Indictment Against the Grammies?
The whole "they" thing when you are talking about one person always confuses me and I refuse to participate. It is simply not grammatically correct and I can't wrap my brain around it. YMMV.
Given the wide range of musical tastes, why have just male and female? For that matter, why have these award shows at all? It’s just narcissism on display, and it seems like they’ve run their course.
@Althouse: "I don't identify with your theory at all."
My 5 minute analysis didn't go into women's attraction to boy bands. Every pubescent female generation has had 'relationship' male artists: Elvis, The Beatles, The Monkeys, New Kids On The Block, K-Pop, etc. Yep, absolutely true.
Still, let's have a free concert for...Slayer or Morbid Angel...and see how many women show up. In contrast, there'd be plenty of women at pretty-boy Hair Metal concerts. Bon Jovi, absolutely. Van Halen, yep. Male bands sometimes expressly target a female audience with dark bad-boy or gothic imagery too, such as Type O Negative.
Some bands have virtually total attraction by a single sex, while others cross over. None of affects my theory, as my theory is that you need distinct groups to cover the distinct range of human experience. Male versus Female are absolutely rock solid natural categories. Some humans are more androgynous than others and cross over too, but firm stereotypes are also present. "Diversity. Colors of the rainbow. Snowflakes."
"I've always listened to male voices more than female"
Me too. Most the records I had were male artists with Janis and Aretha thrown in...there weren't all that many women artists back then. Not until the 70s anyway.
my reason: because women's voices sound much more better. The majority of music that gilbar buys are female vocalists As far as He's concerned, Any music award should go to a girl BUT! There are weird, confused people out there; that like male vocalists; so i guess they could get awards too.
What i'm saying is; there is NO comparison between a female voice and a male voice. guitar players? sure, what ever banjo player? i don't care but vocalists? male and female voices are two entirely different instruments
It's amazing that the press tells me daily there are events in the world that spark "fury" and "outrage" that I don't give a shit about... like self-fellating award shows.
Is this really how people feel about this stuff or is the press now supposed to tell us what is supposed to make us furious so we ignore the shit that should really make us furious?
We celebrate young women because they're the ones giving birth to babies and repopulating the human race.
Celebrating the sexuality of a 63-old-woman isn't what I would call retrograde. Sam Smith is 30, so he's basically saying that his mother's generation is sexy.
As a matter of fact, since Anne Bancroft was only 35 when she played Mrs. Robinson, The Graduate wasn't half as revolutionary as it pretended to be. There was supposed to be a 25-year age difference, more or less. And Bancroft was only 5 years older than Hoffman.
To give out more awards and to insure gender balance. They are going to think about gender a lot anyway, so why pretend they aren't? This article proves it.
I don't identify with the voices-in-head/dress-up theory either. For years my favorite bands were Rush (God help the poor soul for whom Geddy Lee's voice is the voice in his head), Big Country, Marillion (Fish lineup, not the new guy), and Queensryche - all with male lead singers (I am female) whose voices don't resemble one another in the least. The female voices that I gravitate to are the really big ones, like Ann Wilson and Pat Benatar, because they are the most fun ones for me to belt along with at top volume in the car, though I did harbor affection for Kate Bush for a while despite her conscious adoption of the magical fairy girl persona - mostly because who writes a song about Wuthering Heights?
I like lyrics, and I like powerful voices.
What I do agree with is the commenter who pointed out that not every song can be delivered effectively by every singer. Could Katy Perry sing Thunder Road? Could Springsteen sing Teenage Dream? Would they mean the same things if those singers tried? Sometimes a singer can radically change the style of a song from the original and make it work - Lorde's version of Everybody Wants To Rule the World comes to mind. But not every song, not every singer.
"My 5 minute analysis didn't go into women's attraction to boy bands. Every pubescent female generation has had 'relationship' male artists: Elvis, The Beatles, The Monkeys, New Kids On The Block, K-Pop, etc. Yep, absolutely true."
You're diminishing the young. Human emotion is part of our love of singers. That's true at every age. You also spelled "Monkees" wrong.
I looked at the list Spotify made of my most listened to music of 2022. It is not only predominately male. It is *100%* male.
Your theory is just wrong. Maybe some people are looking to identify with the singer, but some, maybe, most of us prefer to feel that we are being sung *to*. Disparaging teenagers is something you might want to rise above.
Will people be furious and outraged when the first transgender woman wins female vocalist of the year??
Pat Benatar was such a bad ass that I wouldn't have cared if she won male vocalist of the year in her prime. She certainly had more bravado that the Harry Styles of today.
"And the winner of best female vocal performance is...HARRY STYLES for "I'm Proud to Be a Woman with a Penis".
WK @ 6:58: “… When I first read this I thought the ‘they’ was referring to the awards.” Me too. I guess I’ll just never be Woke enough.
…As for the whole male-man-female-woman category business (for awards and so on) I think we ought to honor the fundamental principle of Wokeness, which is genderfluidity and the dissolution of all boundaries. So no more boy/girl boxes, no XX/XY stuff, just a big playful soup where words can mean whatever you want and anybody can compete against anybody. With prizes for everybody.
And no pronouns at all, because someone’s feelings might be hurt.
Holy Fuck. This is what SNL has come to? Hah! Hilarious. It's so far gone it doesn't even realize it needs to die. It's beyond death. It's become zombified.
"The hell? What's progressive? It's totally retrograde." For many of us the very term 'progressive' means something regressive is about to be served up to us. There's nothing progressive about the far left movement. It is entirely a regression of humanity's forward movement.
And any article that misuses pronouns to represent a single individual with the pronoun 'they' loses me immediately. I will toss it aside like a ref tossing out Bobby Knight. (if you don't know who Bobby Knight is, google it). It's like celebrating schizophrenia and everybody has multiple personalities so let's just skip the singular and make everyone a plural. Nah. Not playing. It'll pass. And it'll look doubly ridiculous that major media and Big Education played along.
Enigma, I don't think that theory works either. I try to recall my Albums in college. Pat Benatar, Billy Joel, Supertramp, Steely Dan, Charlie, Blondie, Paul Simon, Donna Summer, Pablo Cruise. I'm sure I'm missing plenty.
The common denominator is that I could sing along with each and every one of them (I had a great falsetto back in the day).
That was fully weird. I thought it was a bunch of monks on a cathedral. Is this what passes for popular music these days? With the head priest in gold vestments? To your question, my preference is for female performers, was my music collection reflects. Indeed, your point of there being a sexual element is, go me, obvious, but I suppose we are not allowed go address that anymore.
I've always listened to male voices more than female. In the 60s (my most active decade for listening to new things), I listened to the 4 Seasons, The Beatles, The Byrds, The Kinks, The Who, Bob Dylan, Donovan, The Rolling Stones, etc. etc. Far more male than female. I certainly wasn't looking for someone singing in a voice that felt like me talking to myself. I wanted someone else "talking" to me. A relationship!
It might be just the type of music you like. In the 1960's rock music was overwhelmingly male. Girl bands tended to be pop music.
Here she is, doing some horrible ballad about getting shot down by her boyfriend. I hate the ballad format, and the whiny lyrics don't help much. I can barely listen to that fucking thing.
Anyway, if the girls are rocking, I like the girls. Here's Blondie pretending she's a stalker. I like Go-Gos and The Bangles, too.
Even if you're listening to rock music from the 1960's, there was still a notable minority of women rockers. (Usually they were fronting a male band). Janis Joplin, for instance, or Grace Slick.
Speaking of gender and music, there has been a small trend in recent years to popularize male sopranos or countertenors. While I can respect good technique, I find even the best male sopranos and countertenors to be unlistenable, at least when singing the classical repertoire. They sing the same fundamental notes that female singers can sing, but the distinctive timbre of the male singers makes me cringe and want to run away every time, even when I'm not told the singer is a male. I guess that makes me an awful person.
It seems like all of the really successful female singers have relied heavily on the fact of being women to define their styles and images. Usually, the vibe is that of a sassy, self-assured, determined woman who has been kicked around by love and isn't in the mood to take much more of some man's shit. Male pop singers don't lean into the "male" part of it nearly as much. For example, women will sing about being a woman about a hundred times more often than a man will sing about being a man.
With that in mind, I think it's kind of artistically threatening of female singers to say, in effect, that there's no meaningful difference between male and female singers and it's all exactly the same art form. It may be hard to define in words, but there's something different going on with women performers that the audience recognizes and responds to.
In horse racing, mares compete with the males. And win, sometimes.
If you ever spend a lot of time with dogs, you might find yourself having to look for genitalia to determine the sex of a dog. Because male dogs and female dogs often seem very, very similar. Females don't hump, but they can and do play rough.
In people we segregate men and women for athletics. But -- since athletics don't have a lot to do with sexuality -- maybe we shouldn't segregate these sports. Maybe we should let anybody compete who wants to compete, and celebrate the finest athletes.
Here's one of the Jackass crew getting his ass kicked by a girl. She beats the shit out of him. It's really funny.
Obviously the awards need a category for female artists AND a gender neutral category ... which will have a quota to assure that female artists get their share.
I observe that Ann's connection to a relationship with the male singer seems to be a general one for females. I just have to think back to watching the almost 100% female audience at the Ed Sullivan show when the Beatles appeared. Besides the screaming and fainting, almost all of the girls/women were mouthing the name of their favorite individual Beatle: "Paul!!" "John!!" "Riiingo!!". Each one of them was dreaming that a particular Beatle was singing directly to them, when in fact, there was no chance of that whatsoever. Did that deter them from the romantic notion? Not one bit.
On the other hand, when I listened to a song by a female artist that I liked, singing to some imaginary love interest, I never substituted myself into the song. She's singing to that handsome, chiseled, rich stud playing his guitar for her over there by his Lamborghini, not to me!
"Usage quibble: Shouldn't it be "Ensure gender balance" rather than "insure"?"
People should probably follow the rule you refer to — that "insure" is only about insurance — because so many people feel that's the rule, but I have been influenced by reading The New Yorker, which has a thing about preferring the "in-" variant on a lot of words where there is also an "en-" spelling.
Just looking at recent articles with the word "insure," I found many examples that were not about insurance:
"Hired in 2016 after a lifetime in military medicine, Gilman says that his job is to insure that the facility works as well for its research subjects as it does for researchers." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/nobody-has-my-condition-but-me
"You are confirmed for four people at 7:30 p.m. on Friday, January 20th. Before we welcome you to our restaurant, a few housekeeping items, to insure that your visit with us is exceptional—and to avoid misunderstandings." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/thank-you-for-your-reservation
"Big polluters—power plants, say—would have to buy allowances, and the money would be spent on both rebates to consumers, to insure that their energy costs do not rise..." https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/what-to-do-when-it-rains-on-the-winter-games
"People around Frost suggested that he find out who his biological mother was, not only for his own sake, but to insure that none of his detractors did so first." https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/maxwell-frosts-vision-meets-washington
"The first policy priority, then, is to insure that the additional resources for the I.R.S. remain in place, and that they get used wisely." https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/how-to-make-trump-and-the-wealthy-pay-their-taxes
"She even organized a brunch with her editor and the novelist and critic Mary McCarthy to insure that his next book would be brought out by her publisher." https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/a-philosophy-professors-final-class
"When you’re creating your initial tool kit as a young artist, you have to insure you’re not creating tools just for your present moment—for the “new” art you feel you are making." https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/jorie-graham-takes-the-long-view
"Pointing to my beer, he said that the American school believed, out of superstition, that keeping a pregnancy secret in the early stages would insure the well-being of the baby, whereas the Greek school favored telling as many people as possible, to call on the protection of the community." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/02/notions-of-the-sacred
That's all just in the last month. They're consistent.
In the same time period, the only use of "ensure" was in quoting something that was in writing: "“Access to nature and our public lands is essential to connecting with the outdoors,” she tweeted. “The El Paso community is advancing locally led conservation to ensure everyone has a relationship to this special place.”" https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-southwest/the-fight-for-a-new-national-monument-in-texas
Going back further, I only found "ensure" where they were quoting the written word and the spelling was in the original.
I think the most important thing is to pick a rule and be consistent, and I'm guessing the New Yorker is. I don't know if I've been thinking about it enough to have been consistent, but "insure" seems right to me and looks better. Maybe I'm influenced by "Ensure" being a brand name for a very specific product.
Have you ever had the misforturne to be at a dinner where someone came up and sang to you? I have. They were always male singers, and I always hated it. And the women I was with always loved it. IRL, very few men want another man singing to them. Unless its a marching song.
I listen to songs from male singers, but very few of them are love songs. And those are mostly Sinatra singing about how some Dame made him feel blue
My mother always loved listening to baritone singers like Mario Lanza, Johnny Cash, hank snow, etc. She also liked Babs Striesand. Figure that one out. .
Wow that was weird, but I kind of liked it. I think he was trying to make a classical portrait. Someone just posted a group recreating Rembrandts live on Twitter a couple of weeks back. Same feeling.
Not so sure it was sexist, though it was intentionally sexy. Maybe there's more to it than that. Isn't Sam Smith non-binary?
I don't think sprawled is an accurate description of the way she was posed. She seemed more to be on an alter and in her own bed at the same time, waiting for, dreaming of, an anticipated ceremony in which she would play the starring role and be properly worshipped and lifted up...accepted?...acknowledged?
The song is a hymn to Gloria. Who's Gloria? Perhaps sex symbol Sharon Stone is aspirational for him, she represents Sam Smith's ideal dream self or how he would like to feel or how he wishes he could be perceived or a part of himself only he can see, but wishes others could.
Check out the song lyrics here: https://genius.com/Sam-smith-gloria-extended-version-lyrics
According to my sources, "Sam explained the meaning of the album title. “Gloria” wasn’t the name of a person, but what they described as their “fighting spirit within me. I am letting it loose. The album is about spiritual, emotional and sexual liberation.”"
Full disclosure, I never heard of this guy before nor of the song. I found the song intolerably boring and couldn't listen to it. I jumped ahead to see what Sharon stone did at the end.
Not to pick a fight with my hostess (too late!), but your comment at 8:36 sounds kind of retro to me. It sounds like old-fashioned feminism from the 1970's.
If Sam Smith was a lesbian woman, would you say this is "sexist crap"?
If a man was playing the sexual object, would you say this is "sexist crap"?
The era I'm in, people don't know what a woman is. Remember?! This is 2023, not 1976.
I don't know about sexist, but I'd agree on the crap comment. I got bored and bailed. The brief bit that I watched was not sexy at all. I don't know if it was her age or the choreography, or both. I don't even know if he's going for sexy. Just seemed kind of stupid to me. But I wouldn't haul him off to the feminist gulag for brainwashing.
I've skewed towards male vocalists my whole life as well, and did used to wonder about that. I mean, Heart really rocked and I liked some of their stuff, but not enough to buy one of their albums. Same with Benatar, Blondie. . .love love LOVE Amy Lee's voice (Evanexcence) but don't listen very much. Maybe it's just the genre. I love the Pink Martini vocalists.
Same with guitarists, I can't think of a single female guitarist that I really like although I don't know anything that would make them not as good as men.
BTW, I find everything about Sam Smith utterly boring.
Thanks. I was trying not to do that and was being careful. It's too hard to get right. I fixed it but not they way you suggested.
A big part of the appeal is to make it difficult to say the right thing so as to create many opportunities for others to raise their social status by correcting you.
'I've always listened to male voices more than female. In the 60s (my most active decade for listening to new things), I listened to the 4 Seasons, The Beatles, The Byrds, The Kinks, The Who, Bob Dylan, Donovan, The Rolling Stones, etc. etc. Far more male than female.'
Quick, name the great female groups that can compete in the same realm as those above.
All I've got is the Bangles, and only because they are all gorgeous, not necessarily musical geniuses.
Female solo acts usually have actual talent, not just there as eye candy.
Professora said _ I looked at the list Spotify made of my most listened to music of 2022. It is not only predominately male. It is *100%* male. ========== is it even a word? predominately
my peeves are tenet v tenant, principle v principal adding predominately now
Sometimes women can take a song written originally for a male singer and make it special Cf: Peggy Lee's version of "Bye Bye Blackbird" or Rhondstat's "Blue Bayou"
"Blue Eye's crying in the rain: is much better when sung by Eve Cassidy or other female singers. Much better than Willie Nelson version.
Parton and Krauss do the best version of "Sweet music man".
I wondered if it was Kate McKinnon on the slab and if she'd turn the song into a comedy routine.
Men and boys -- white men and boys, at least -- could strike poses and pretend to be things in the Sixties and Seventies that they don't dare attempt today. The age of the rock band and of rock itself are over, whatever gender or color the rockers are. In the mainstream culture, as opposed to rap, you can't get away with saying or singing or doing or pretending to do the things that the male rockers of 50 years ago got away with -- even Sinatra would be cancelled if he were still around -- so it's not surprising that popular music isn't as male-dominated as it was then.
Somewhere Over the Rainbow is not a song meant for Mick Jagger. Sixteen Tons is not a song for Judy Garland.
I think men's and women's voices in song are so distinctly different that separate categories are appropriate. I was thinking particularly of gospel music where a really powerful woman's voice can send chills up your spine.
Oh, I can’t believe after all that about pronouns, I did an update where I wrote “ Let him designate which of the 2 categories he wants for himself.” Will fix.
“ Quick, name the great female groups that can compete in the same realm as those above”
Based on my experience at the time in the 60s, I would say The Chrystals, The Chiffons, and The Shirells. But that was all in the early 60s. In the late 60s, maybe the mixed groups: The Jefferson Airplane and The Mamas and Papas. And then some soloists: Judy and Joni and Laura.
"Why should music be divided into male and female?"
Well, "music" shouldn't be. Or perhaps it should since there have been so many more great male creators of new music. But performance of popular music could be. Talents differ. Division celebrates diversity. More progressive.
"What's progressive? It's totally retrograde."
And yet, Stone was the best part of the piece. Might the "it's totally retrograde" old-feminist indignation be what the SNLers were trying to provoke?
I prefer listening to male singers. I don't think it's a matter of feeling like I am being sung to, it's more that I can comfortably sing along. (Anyone listening to me would probably argue about whether I am "singing along" or just making accompanying noise. I will never be mistaken for a singer.)
“I observe that Ann's connection to a relationship with the male singer seems to be a general one for females. I just have to think back to watching the almost 100% female audience at the Ed Sullivan show when the Beatles appeared. Besides the screaming and fainting, almost all of the girls/women were mouthing the name of their favorite individual Beatle: "Paul!!" "John!!" "Riiingo!!". Each one of them was dreaming that a particular Beatle was singing directly to them, when in fact, there was no chance of that whatsoever. Did that deter them from the romantic notion? Not one bit.”
Reminds me of a comment I made recently at the passing of Lisa Marie Presley. In the early 1970s, my partner was running the floral shop at the Hilton in Las Vegas, where Lisa Marie’s father was playing. She would talk to him on the phone, on occasion about his flowers. He gave a lot of them away. One time, he asked if she knew who he was (got a lot of that in her job). She told him that when he was on Ed Sullivan, she and her two sisters would put on lipstick, sitting in front of the TV, watching him, and each one screaming, knowing that he was looking at her. Then, she told him, she grew up. He responded that he wasn’t sure if he should feel insulted or complimented. She responded that it was his choice. She got a pair of front row seats and back stage passes for her effrontery. If he had given her three tickets, she might have taken her father and his brother, who were the really avid Elvis fans - her uncle going so far as naming his youngest daughter, born 6 months after Elvis’ daughter, after her.
This was about the time that I discovered his music. Before that, I had always chalked him up to being one of those singers who catered to girls (I felt the same about the Beatles) - like Ann (3 months younger than I). I much preferred the music of singers and bands singing to males, than trying to woo females, like The Beach Boys. Now, a half century, and more, later, the one singer that we both agree on is Elvis.
Male sex and masculine gender. Female sex and feminine gender.
Men, women, and "our Posterity" are from Earth. Feminists are from Venus. Masculinists are from Mars. Social progressives are from Uranus. War of the world. #HateLovesAbortion
“In horse racing, mares compete with the males. And win, sometimes.”
“Now I'm wondering how that works, and how the racetracks arrange things so the horses aren't just copulating instead of running races.”
Pretty much only humans have hidden estrus. You pretty much know when most other species are in heat. And when the mares are, you just don’t run them. If you did, it wouldn’t be horses mating, but all of the stallions fighting for the right to mate that mare. And the rare gelding would run away with the prize. They are rare, because the real money is in the stud fees, after the stallions are retired.
'Based on my experience at the time in the 60s, I would say The Chrystals, The Chiffons, and The Shirells. But that was all in the early 60s. In the late 60s, maybe the mixed groups: The Jefferson Airplane and The Mamas and Papas. And then some soloists: Judy and Joni and Laura.'
Compared to the Beatles, Who, Stones, etc., the ones you mentioned are of their era...they are not relevant in the modern world.
Great in the '60s but that's it.
Airplane/Starship is a hippie novelty act. Mamas and Papas were folk/hippie. Very dated...
I never liked women's voices until Linda Ronstadt. Today I attribute that to early sound engineering that focused on enhancing male voices and somehow made women's shrill. I just found women's voices unpleasant.
I never hear lyrics, just the instrument that is the voice, so the Althouse response doesn't work for me. I do remember not understanding girls who chose to go gaga over the Beatles. I infinitely preferred boys I knew and had the possibility of actually kissing. I had a boyfriend once who sang to me when we were out walking.
“Oh, I can’t believe after all that about pronouns, I did an update where I wrote “ Let him designate which of the 2 categories he wants for himself.” Will fix.”
my peeves are tenet v tenant, principle v principal adding predominately now
I do have sympathy for people with word confusion. I've been struggling with "affect v. effect" my entire life. Basically, i've gotten tired of looking up these damn words everytime, and nowjust write "effect" and if the "effects" you the wrong way. Too effecing bad.
Latest "female" music fury this afternoon is on Daily Mail.
The Trans Cultural Mindfulness Alliance (TCMA) wants Aretha Franklin's "Natural Woman" banned and pulled off Spotify and Apple Music. Guess it's ok to leave it on Amazon Music. Seriously. They've lost their minds, and we are losing ours submitting to their demands.
But I don't understand why they are offended. If you can talk some heterosexual dude in to having sex with you post vagina creation surgery, doesn't the chorus of that song in particular fit what you were seeking?
Make it make sense!!! Is there a public school teacher in the hiz-ouse that can explain this to me??? Perhaps with an illustrated book or something??
Blogger Ann Althouse said... The idea that it's not sexist crap to have a woman sprawled out like that and writhing because the woman is OLD is such bullshit.
OK. But isn't it up to Sharon Stone to decide how she wants to perform and how she want's to be objectified?
What if Sharon Stone just considers it art?
Are we really talking about sexism here or the psychological profile of Sharon Stone and Norma Desmond?
I agree with those who say their should be different categories because male and female voices are so different. I don't think I've ever mistaken one for the other. Been thinking a lot about whether I prefer male of female voices and have come to the conclusion that I'm gender neutral. I love the best of both.
When Sharon Stone rose up and turned, what stood out to this male gaze were the wrinkles at the place where here left breast attached to her chest. Very prominent. I noticed the camera cut away fast
When Sharon Stone rose up and turned, what stood out to this male gaze were the wrinkles at the place where here left breast attached to her chest. Very prominent. I noticed the camera cut away fast
When Sharon Stone rose up and turned, what stood out to this male gaze were the wrinkles at the place where here left breast attached to her chest. Very prominent. I noticed the camera cut away fast
Progress is an [unqualified] monotonic process. Progressive is an ideological and religious philosophy. One step forward, two steps backward. #PrinciplesMatter
The idea that it's not sexist crap to have a woman sprawled out like that and writhing because the woman is OLD is such bullshit.
Feminists, social progressives, and the "industry" would disagree. There is a compelling cause to liberate women and girls for the labor market, State revenue, couches with "benefits", and "burden" indemnity.
@Althouse wrote: "Your theory is just wrong. Maybe some people are looking to identify with the singer, but some, maybe, most of us prefer to feel that we are being sung *to*. Disparaging teenagers is something you might want to rise above."
Late reply after a stale post, but I'm getting to it now.
"Most of us" -- well there's the rub. This a statistics and data-driven topic with plenty of real data out there. Most musical genres have commercial value and are indeed tracked by demographics and business value. Awards shows often aim to span the entire market (e.g., Grammy, BBC, Brit Awards) or focus on new generation music (e.g., NME) or specific niches. I'm not disparaging teenagers, teenage girls are dumped into marketing-driven category and boy bands have been manufactured by industry capitalists for many many many years. They are the cynical ones, and they are the ones who sell the same formula over and over and over. I actually find it sad that it's so easy to fool the young and that businesses make so much money from the predictable choices of the young.
Overall, you are repeating the Grammy Awards / mainstream music error. Recall that Jethro Tull was awarded Heavy Metal Album of the Year in 1989 over Metallica, Jane's Addiction, Iggy Pop, and AC/DC! This reflected gross ignorance of the heavy metal and a defective voting system. Jethro Tull was the obvious orange among apples for heavy metal fans, which reinforced sarcastic views award show as the "Grannies". Still, they had this reputation long before 1989 and appealed to a stodgy middle of the road market.
Mainstream commercial pop is a completely different world than hardcore genre music. Yes there is a large blurry poppy middle ground and yes people listen to others speaking and replicate romantic conversations through male/female duets. However, there are many gendered genres that aren't in the middle and that provide no evidence of broad appeal across sexes or even personality types. If you've attended a concert by a genre group then it's plain that their commercial success is often intensely bio-gender driven. Boy bands attract young girls and their mothers. Taylor Swift's use of acoustic guitars sparked a huge boom of teenage female guitar players. True non-pop heavy metal attracts males age 16+ a la Beavis and Butthead. Etc.
Your poll even included an item "To reinforce the distinction between the sexes." That is sometimes absolutely true. Music has always attracted gay and androgynous performers (e.g., Little Richard, David Bowie, Mick Jagger), but attraction often still splits into clear sex differences. It's not a simple topic and it doesn't have a simple answer.
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110 comments:
Sharon Stone was the star of that performance.
Last week I watched Basic Instinct 1 and 2 in order to figure out why the sequel bombed. No body doubles were used in the sex scenes.
G-L-O-R-I-A!
Why do we need separate men’s and women’s collegiate and professional athletics? Competition is point of athletics so let everyone compete with the best excelling whether they are men, women or transgender.
My vote - To recognize that the singing voices of male and female singers are different and have different ranges and qualities.
I do think that gender-specific acting categories should be eliminated. Awards are about the only time I see "actress" when referring to females. Now, they're also usually called "actors." Acting awards should instead be separated into genre or type of material being performed - comedy, drama, action, etc.
Of course, probably won't ever do that because women would never win for a comedy performance.
Sharon Stone is sixty three years old. You can celebrate the sexuality of sixty three year old women. It's sexist and wrong, possibly even criminally wrong, to notice the good looks of a woman under twenty......Depending on the song, both the age and the sex of the singer matters. Somewhere Over the Rainbow is not a song meant for Mick Jagger. Sixteen Tons is not a song for Judy Garland.
Years ago I scanned the music shelf of a male friend. I noted that a solid 90% to 95% of his stuff was from male artists or vocalists. Men gravitate to the voices in their head, but also to watching female jiggle shows. Women gravitate to the voices in their head and to Barbie Doll dress up (e.g., Madonna, Lady Gaga).
Sort these bands into their core fanbases by biological sex and self-identified gender:
* Metallica
* Madonna
* Black Sabbath
* Beyoncé
* Cannibal Corpse
* Ariana Grande
Etc.
Now do these:
* Sam Smith
* Morrissey
* Bruno Mars
* Coldplay
* Depeche Mode
Male gay or transgendered or Elevator Muzak?
Now do these:
* Any artist who ever performed at the Lilith Festival
* Alanis Morrissette
Female lesbian?
Voices in the head. Keep the sexes in obvious traditional roles or they'll naturally and instinctively find their own type.
SNL? That is so 70s.
"They"?
Lol.
The idea should be to give as many awards as possible. If gender isn't appropriate, they could hreak it down like opera singing, natural singing pitch. There aren't that many Axl Roses or Mariah Careys with gigantic singing ranges that have great songs at all ranges.
"Sharon Stone is sixty three years old."
A decade older than Norma Desmond.
Did Sharon Stone make Sam Smith feel like a “natural woman”?
See Aretha Franklin classic song.
I’m trying to figure out what they (they as in SNL’s production) were going for.
"Years ago I scanned the music shelf of a male friend. I noted that a solid 90% to 95% of his stuff was from male artists or vocalists. Men gravitate to the voices in their head, but also to watching female jiggle shows. Women gravitate to the voices in their head and to Barbie Doll dress up (e.g., Madonna, Lady Gaga)."
I've always listened to male voices more than female. In the 60s (my most active decade for listening to new things), I listened to the 4 Seasons, The Beatles, The Byrds, The Kinks, The Who, Bob Dylan, Donovan, The Rolling Stones, etc. etc. Far more male than female. I certainly wasn't looking for someone singing in a voice that felt like me talking to myself. I wanted someone else "talking" to me. A relationship!
I don't identify with your theory at all.
While male and female have the ability to play on an even playing field (in this context), I would contend that they have independent bell-curves of ability. Both men and women, when taken as an average, are the same. When trying to pick ‘the best’ who dominates at the upper end of the bell-curve?
"Sharon Stone is sixty three years old."
Buzz Aldrin just married a 63-year-old woman. He and she both look 20 years younger than they are.
“While Sam welcomed the axing of the gendered awards - which came some years after they came out as non-binary -“
When I first read this I thought the “they” was referring to the awards. I always found diagramming sentences a challenge. Now even more difficult.
Enigma said... Voices in the head. Keep the sexes in obvious traditional roles or they'll naturally and instinctively find their own type.
1/23/23, 6:33 AM
I don’t think the voices in the head are natural. These designations have been defined by advertisers to sell products and it works. But actually you can listen to any music you like.
Has anyone significant in music ever considered the winning of a Grammy a major achievement? I have yet to read a David Crosby obituary that referenced his Grammy success. If he never won one (I have no idea), is that an Outrageous Slight or an Indictment Against the Grammies?
Why be disappointed in the “snub”? Why not be disappointed that the females weren’t good enough this year? Who’s to say?
The whole "they" thing when you are talking about one person always confuses me and I refuse to participate. It is simply not grammatically correct and I can't wrap my brain around it. YMMV.
Given the wide range of musical tastes, why have just male and female? For that matter, why have these award shows at all? It’s just narcissism on display, and it seems like they’ve run their course.
@Althouse: "I don't identify with your theory at all."
My 5 minute analysis didn't go into women's attraction to boy bands. Every pubescent female generation has had 'relationship' male artists: Elvis, The Beatles, The Monkeys, New Kids On The Block, K-Pop, etc. Yep, absolutely true.
Still, let's have a free concert for...Slayer or Morbid Angel...and see how many women show up. In contrast, there'd be plenty of women at pretty-boy Hair Metal concerts. Bon Jovi, absolutely. Van Halen, yep. Male bands sometimes expressly target a female audience with dark bad-boy or gothic imagery too, such as Type O Negative.
Some bands have virtually total attraction by a single sex, while others cross over. None of affects my theory, as my theory is that you need distinct groups to cover the distinct range of human experience. Male versus Female are absolutely rock solid natural categories. Some humans are more androgynous than others and cross over too, but firm stereotypes are also present. "Diversity. Colors of the rainbow. Snowflakes."
The hell? What's progressive? It's totally retrograde.
Transgenderism is just today’s version of “if it feels good, do it”.
"I've always listened to male voices more than female"
Me too. Most the records I had were male artists with Janis and Aretha thrown in...there weren't all that many women artists back then. Not until the 70s anyway.
Ever “progressing” but never being able to make headway.
my reason:
because women's voices sound much more better. The majority of music that gilbar buys are female vocalists
As far as He's concerned, Any music award should go to a girl
BUT!
There are weird, confused people out there; that like male vocalists; so i guess they could get awards too.
What i'm saying is; there is NO comparison between a female voice and a male voice.
guitar players? sure, what ever
banjo player? i don't care
but vocalists? male and female voices are two entirely different instruments
which has sparked fury among music fans
Fury - noun - wild or violent anger
It's amazing that the press tells me daily there are events in the world that spark "fury" and "outrage" that I don't give a shit about... like self-fellating award shows.
Is this really how people feel about this stuff or is the press now supposed to tell us what is supposed to make us furious so we ignore the shit that should really make us furious?
Sharon Stone is sixty three years old.
Yeah, that was my reaction.
I'm a Republican so I don't mind being retro.
We celebrate young women because they're the ones giving birth to babies and repopulating the human race.
Celebrating the sexuality of a 63-old-woman isn't what I would call retrograde. Sam Smith is 30, so he's basically saying that his mother's generation is sexy.
What he's doing is kind of like The Graduate!
As a matter of fact, since Anne Bancroft was only 35 when she played Mrs. Robinson, The Graduate wasn't half as revolutionary as it pretended to be. There was supposed to be a 25-year age difference, more or less. And Bancroft was only 5 years older than Hoffman.
Why should music be divided into male and female?
To give out more awards and to insure gender balance.
They are going to think about gender a lot anyway, so why pretend they aren't? This article proves it.
I don't identify with the voices-in-head/dress-up theory either. For years my favorite bands were Rush (God help the poor soul for whom Geddy Lee's voice is the voice in his head), Big Country, Marillion (Fish lineup, not the new guy), and Queensryche - all with male lead singers (I am female) whose voices don't resemble one another in the least. The female voices that I gravitate to are the really big ones, like Ann Wilson and Pat Benatar, because they are the most fun ones for me to belt along with at top volume in the car, though I did harbor affection for Kate Bush for a while despite her conscious adoption of the magical fairy girl persona - mostly because who writes a song about Wuthering Heights?
I like lyrics, and I like powerful voices.
What I do agree with is the commenter who pointed out that not every song can be delivered effectively by every singer. Could Katy Perry sing Thunder Road? Could Springsteen sing Teenage Dream? Would they mean the same things if those singers tried? Sometimes a singer can radically change the style of a song from the original and make it work - Lorde's version of Everybody Wants To Rule the World comes to mind. But not every song, not every singer.
"I've always listened to male voices more than female"
Which male voices do we enjoy more? A-B testing choices below:
1) Baby, I messed up, and now my heart is broken, and I can't live without you.
or
2) Bitch I own that fucking pussy and don't you forget it or I'll give you that back side of my hand before I tap that ass.
Hmmm....
"My 5 minute analysis didn't go into women's attraction to boy bands. Every pubescent female generation has had 'relationship' male artists: Elvis, The Beatles, The Monkeys, New Kids On The Block, K-Pop, etc. Yep, absolutely true."
You're diminishing the young. Human emotion is part of our love of singers. That's true at every age. You also spelled "Monkees" wrong.
I looked at the list Spotify made of my most listened to music of 2022. It is not only predominately male. It is *100%* male.
Your theory is just wrong. Maybe some people are looking to identify with the singer, but some, maybe, most of us prefer to feel that we are being sung *to*. Disparaging teenagers is something you might want to rise above.
Sharon Stone looked like a human sacrifice on an alter, surrounded by a priest and his acolytes, waiting for the knife.
Will people be furious and outraged when the first transgender woman wins female vocalist of the year??
Pat Benatar was such a bad ass that I wouldn't have cared if she won male vocalist of the year in her prime. She certainly had more bravado that the Harry Styles of today.
"And the winner of best female vocal performance is...HARRY STYLES for "I'm Proud to Be a Woman with a Penis".
WK @ 6:58: “… When I first read this I thought the ‘they’ was referring to the awards.” Me too. I guess I’ll just never be Woke enough.
…As for the whole male-man-female-woman category business (for awards and so on) I think we ought to honor the fundamental principle of Wokeness, which is genderfluidity and the dissolution of all boundaries. So no more boy/girl boxes, no XX/XY stuff, just a big playful soup where words can mean whatever you want and anybody can compete against anybody. With prizes for everybody.
And no pronouns at all, because someone’s feelings might be hurt.
William: Somewhere Over the Rainbow is not a song meant for Mick Jagger. Sixteen Tons is not a song for Judy Garland.
I once saw a woman singer performing "The Cat's in the Cradle". Didn't even change the lyrics.
Technically, she was quite good, but it just didn't work emotionally.
Long ago I coined the term proglodyte for this situation among many others.
Progress isn't a positive word. Nor does progress presuppose a worthwhile outcome.
Doubt me? Ask a cancer patient.
Usage quibble:
Shouldn't it be "Ensure gender balance" rather than "insure"?
Troubadours got laid more often than the knights they sang about.
And those Viennese Jungfrauen swooned over Mozart, too.
But for the right reason? Hmmmm...
Holy Fuck. This is what SNL has come to? Hah! Hilarious. It's so far gone it doesn't even realize it needs to die. It's beyond death. It's become zombified.
"The hell? What's progressive? It's totally retrograde." For many of us the very term 'progressive' means something regressive is about to be served up to us. There's nothing progressive about the far left movement. It is entirely a regression of humanity's forward movement.
And any article that misuses pronouns to represent a single individual with the pronoun 'they' loses me immediately. I will toss it aside like a ref tossing out Bobby Knight. (if you don't know who Bobby Knight is, google it). It's like celebrating schizophrenia and everybody has multiple personalities so let's just skip the singular and make everyone a plural. Nah. Not playing. It'll pass. And it'll look doubly ridiculous that major media and Big Education played along.
Enigma, I don't think that theory works either. I try to recall my Albums in college.
Pat Benatar, Billy Joel, Supertramp, Steely Dan, Charlie, Blondie, Paul Simon, Donna Summer, Pablo Cruise. I'm sure I'm missing plenty.
The common denominator is that I could sing along with each and every one of them (I had a great falsetto back in the day).
You misgendered Sam Smith. "he sang" should be "they sang".
Whether I hear something in a male for female voice depends on the genre.
For rock/R&B/soul it is a male voice.
For jazz/standards/country/classical it is a female voice.
That was fully weird. I thought it was a bunch of monks on a cathedral. Is this what passes for popular music these days? With the head priest in gold vestments? To your question, my preference is for female performers, was my music collection reflects. Indeed, your point of there being a sexual element is, go me, obvious, but I suppose we are not allowed go address that anymore.
Didn’t Sam Smith claim to be “non-binary”? Doesn’t that mean the nominees are not all males if you are an adherent to the LGBTQWTF ideology?
You misgendered Sam Smith: "he sang" should be "they sang".
I've always listened to male voices more than female. In the 60s (my most active decade for listening to new things), I listened to the 4 Seasons, The Beatles, The Byrds, The Kinks, The Who, Bob Dylan, Donovan, The Rolling Stones, etc. etc. Far more male than female. I certainly wasn't looking for someone singing in a voice that felt like me talking to myself. I wanted someone else "talking" to me. A relationship!
It might be just the type of music you like. In the 1960's rock music was overwhelmingly male. Girl bands tended to be pop music.
Here's Nancy Sinatra, These Boots Are Made For Walking. Love that song!
Here she is, doing some horrible ballad about getting shot down by her boyfriend. I hate the ballad format, and the whiny lyrics don't help much. I can barely listen to that fucking thing.
Anyway, if the girls are rocking, I like the girls. Here's Blondie pretending she's a stalker. I like Go-Gos and The Bangles, too.
Even if you're listening to rock music from the 1960's, there was still a notable minority of women rockers. (Usually they were fronting a male band). Janis Joplin, for instance, or Grace Slick.
Speaking of gender and music, there has been a small trend in recent years to popularize male sopranos or countertenors. While I can respect good technique, I find even the best male sopranos and countertenors to be unlistenable, at least when singing the classical repertoire. They sing the same fundamental notes that female singers can sing, but the distinctive timbre of the male singers makes me cringe and want to run away every time, even when I'm not told the singer is a male. I guess that makes me an awful person.
"You misgendered Sam Smith. "he sang" should be "they sang"."
Thanks. I was trying not to do that and was being careful. It's too hard to get right. I fixed it but not they way you suggested.
You can't beat Chyi Yu Chinese woman
The idea that it's not sexist crap to have a woman sprawled out like that and writhing because the woman is OLD is such bullshit.
It seems like all of the really successful female singers have relied heavily on the fact of being women to define their styles and images. Usually, the vibe is that of a sassy, self-assured, determined woman who has been kicked around by love and isn't in the mood to take much more of some man's shit. Male pop singers don't lean into the "male" part of it nearly as much. For example, women will sing about being a woman about a hundred times more often than a man will sing about being a man.
With that in mind, I think it's kind of artistically threatening of female singers to say, in effect, that there's no meaningful difference between male and female singers and it's all exactly the same art form. It may be hard to define in words, but there's something different going on with women performers that the audience recognizes and responds to.
Why should music be divided into male and female?
We could say that about a lot of sports, too.
In horse racing, mares compete with the males. And win, sometimes.
If you ever spend a lot of time with dogs, you might find yourself having to look for genitalia to determine the sex of a dog. Because male dogs and female dogs often seem very, very similar. Females don't hump, but they can and do play rough.
In people we segregate men and women for athletics. But -- since athletics don't have a lot to do with sexuality -- maybe we shouldn't segregate these sports. Maybe we should let anybody compete who wants to compete, and celebrate the finest athletes.
Here's one of the Jackass crew getting his ass kicked by a girl. She beats the shit out of him. It's really funny.
Obviously the awards need a category for female artists AND a gender neutral category ... which will have a quota to assure that female artists get their share.
I observe that Ann's connection to a relationship with the male singer seems to be a general one for females. I just have to think back to watching the almost 100% female audience at the Ed Sullivan show when the Beatles appeared. Besides the screaming and fainting, almost all of the girls/women were mouthing the name of their favorite individual Beatle: "Paul!!" "John!!" "Riiingo!!". Each one of them was dreaming that a particular Beatle was singing directly to them, when in fact, there was no chance of that whatsoever. Did that deter them from the romantic notion? Not one bit.
On the other hand, when I listened to a song by a female artist that I liked, singing to some imaginary love interest, I never substituted myself into the song. She's singing to that handsome, chiseled, rich stud playing his guitar for her over there by his Lamborghini, not to me!
"We don't want to be thought of as women! Also, why is nobody thinking of us as women...?!"
What Temujin said @ 8:06am
"Usage quibble: Shouldn't it be "Ensure gender balance" rather than "insure"?"
People should probably follow the rule you refer to — that "insure" is only about insurance — because so many people feel that's the rule, but I have been influenced by reading The New Yorker, which has a thing about preferring the "in-" variant on a lot of words where there is also an "en-" spelling.
Just looking at recent articles with the word "insure," I found many examples that were not about insurance:
"Hired in 2016 after a lifetime in military medicine, Gilman says that his job is to insure that the facility works as well for its research subjects as it does for researchers." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/nobody-has-my-condition-but-me
"You are confirmed for four people at 7:30 p.m. on Friday, January 20th. Before we welcome you to our restaurant, a few housekeeping items, to insure that your visit with us is exceptional—and to avoid misunderstandings." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/thank-you-for-your-reservation
"Big polluters—power plants, say—would have to buy allowances, and the money would be spent on both rebates to consumers, to insure that their energy costs do not rise..." https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/what-to-do-when-it-rains-on-the-winter-games
"People around Frost suggested that he find out who his biological mother was, not only for his own sake, but to insure that none of his detractors did so first." https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/maxwell-frosts-vision-meets-washington
"The first policy priority, then, is to insure that the additional resources for the I.R.S. remain in place, and that they get used wisely." https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/how-to-make-trump-and-the-wealthy-pay-their-taxes
"She even organized a brunch with her editor and the novelist and critic Mary McCarthy to insure that his next book would be brought out by her publisher." https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/a-philosophy-professors-final-class
"When you’re creating your initial tool kit as a young artist, you have to insure you’re not creating tools just for your present moment—for the “new” art you feel you are making." https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/jorie-graham-takes-the-long-view
"Pointing to my beer, he said that the American school believed, out of superstition, that keeping a pregnancy secret in the early stages would insure the well-being of the baby, whereas the Greek school favored telling as many people as possible, to call on the protection of the community." https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/02/notions-of-the-sacred
That's all just in the last month. They're consistent.
In the same time period, the only use of "ensure" was in quoting something that was in writing: "“Access to nature and our public lands is essential to connecting with the outdoors,” she tweeted. “The El Paso community is advancing locally led conservation to ensure everyone has a relationship to this special place.”" https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-southwest/the-fight-for-a-new-national-monument-in-texas
Going back further, I only found "ensure" where they were quoting the written word and the spelling was in the original.
I think the most important thing is to pick a rule and be consistent, and I'm guessing the New Yorker is. I don't know if I've been thinking about it enough to have been consistent, but "insure" seems right to me and looks better. Maybe I'm influenced by "Ensure" being a brand name for a very specific product.
Have you ever had the misforturne to be at a dinner where someone came up and sang to you? I have. They were always male singers, and I always hated it. And the women I was with always loved it. IRL, very few men want another man singing to them. Unless its a marching song.
I listen to songs from male singers, but very few of them are love songs. And those are mostly Sinatra singing about how some Dame made him feel blue
My mother always loved listening to baritone singers like Mario Lanza, Johnny Cash, hank snow, etc. She also liked Babs Striesand. Figure that one out.
.
Wow that was weird, but I kind of liked it. I think he was trying to make a classical portrait. Someone just posted a group recreating Rembrandts live on Twitter a couple of weeks back. Same feeling.
Not so sure it was sexist, though it was intentionally sexy. Maybe there's more to it than that. Isn't Sam Smith non-binary?
I don't think sprawled is an accurate description of the way she was posed. She seemed more to be on an alter and in her own bed at the same time, waiting for, dreaming of, an anticipated ceremony in which she would play the starring role and be properly worshipped and lifted up...accepted?...acknowledged?
The song is a hymn to Gloria. Who's Gloria? Perhaps sex symbol Sharon Stone is aspirational for him, she represents Sam Smith's ideal dream self or how he would like to feel or how he wishes he could be perceived or a part of himself only he can see, but wishes others could.
Check out the song lyrics here: https://genius.com/Sam-smith-gloria-extended-version-lyrics
According to my sources, "Sam explained the meaning of the album title. “Gloria” wasn’t the name of a person, but what they described as their “fighting spirit within me. I am letting it loose. The album is about spiritual, emotional and sexual liberation.”"
Full disclosure, I never heard of this guy before nor of the song. I found the song intolerably boring and couldn't listen to it. I jumped ahead to see what Sharon stone did at the end.
The idea that it's not sexist crap to have a woman sprawled out like that and writhing because the woman is OLD is such bullshit.
You missed my point, in that it's not retrograde.
The "traditional" mating union involves a man and woman of similar ages, or an older man and a younger woman.
That's why Harold and Maude is a cult classic, it blew apart the sexual norms.
You're looking at this through an old-fashioned feminist lens. But he might be trying to make a commentary on age or sexual attraction.
Not to pick a fight with my hostess (too late!), but your comment at 8:36 sounds kind of retro to me. It sounds like old-fashioned feminism from the 1970's.
If Sam Smith was a lesbian woman, would you say this is "sexist crap"?
If a man was playing the sexual object, would you say this is "sexist crap"?
The era I'm in, people don't know what a woman is. Remember?! This is 2023, not 1976.
I don't know about sexist, but I'd agree on the crap comment. I got bored and bailed. The brief bit that I watched was not sexy at all. I don't know if it was her age or the choreography, or both. I don't even know if he's going for sexy. Just seemed kind of stupid to me. But I wouldn't haul him off to the feminist gulag for brainwashing.
Women were allowed to surf with the men this at The Eddie. Why they would want to is beyond me. Death defying stuff. Brass balls and steel ovaries.
https://youtu.be/LJycBaw4bYU
For those wondering who has the sharpest and meanest mouth, a man or a woman, Chris Pratt and Jennifer Lawrence Face Off.
I watched the whole thing and was very disappointed that Sharon Stone didn't flash her who-haw.
"Thanks. I was trying not to do that and was being careful. It's too hard to get right."
Trying hard to get it "right", being careful and still screwing it up.
Ahh, progress.
I've skewed towards male vocalists my whole life as well, and did used to wonder about that. I mean, Heart really rocked and I liked some of their stuff, but not enough to buy one of their albums. Same with Benatar, Blondie. . .love love LOVE Amy Lee's voice (Evanexcence) but don't listen very much. Maybe it's just the genre. I love the Pink Martini vocalists.
Same with guitarists, I can't think of a single female guitarist that I really like although I don't know anything that would make them not as good as men.
BTW, I find everything about Sam Smith utterly boring.
Thanks. I was trying not to do that and was being careful. It's too hard to get right. I fixed it but not they way you suggested.
A big part of the appeal is to make it difficult to say the right thing so as to create many opportunities for others to raise their social status by correcting you.
It's a feature, not a bug.
Stone is still hot. Even better is she had fewer clothes on but that's just me...
Haven't watched that shit-show SNL in 20 years.
'I've always listened to male voices more than female. In the 60s (my most active decade for listening to new things), I listened to the 4 Seasons, The Beatles, The Byrds, The Kinks, The Who, Bob Dylan, Donovan, The Rolling Stones, etc. etc. Far more male than female.'
Quick, name the great female groups that can compete in the same realm as those above.
All I've got is the Bangles, and only because they are all gorgeous, not necessarily musical geniuses.
Female solo acts usually have actual talent, not just there as eye candy.
I prefer Ensure. is the new yorker writing "Please take steps to insure your work is done on time"? if so, that's weird. Even if its correct.
I had similar confusion with the video. Also, I couldn't make out what they were singing, and wondered if they were Welsh. Maybe the reason for having an older woman on the slab was that they thought that celebrating an older woman would be seen as less sexist than treating a younger woman that way. "They" actually works pretty well in the last sentence, since we don't know who came up with that décor, and maybe nobody wants to take responsibility for it. But Sharon Stone may have been really that eager to get back in front of the cameras.
OK Joe Smith, how about...
Diana Ross & Supremes
Martha & Vandellas
Ronettes
Shirelles
Destiny's Child
Chiffons
Andrews Sisters (old school)
The Roches
Indigo Girls
Heart
Mamas (w/out Papas)
LaBelle
Pointer Sisters
TLC
Bananarama
GoGo's
Bangles
Professora said _ I looked at the list Spotify made of my most listened to music of 2022. It is not only predominately male. It is *100%* male.
==========
is it even a word? predominately
my peeves are tenet v tenant, principle v principal
adding predominately now
Sometimes women can take a song written originally for a male singer and make it special
Cf: Peggy Lee's version of "Bye Bye Blackbird" or Rhondstat's "Blue Bayou"
"Blue Eye's crying in the rain: is much better when sung by Eve Cassidy or other female singers. Much better than Willie Nelson version.
Parton and Krauss do the best version of "Sweet music man".
"It was sad for a Three Stooges what with the dead baby and the Stooges being executed and all."
I wondered if it was Kate McKinnon on the slab and if she'd turn the song into a comedy routine.
Men and boys -- white men and boys, at least -- could strike poses and pretend to be things in the Sixties and Seventies that they don't dare attempt today. The age of the rock band and of rock itself are over, whatever gender or color the rockers are. In the mainstream culture, as opposed to rap, you can't get away with saying or singing or doing or pretending to do the things that the male rockers of 50 years ago got away with -- even Sinatra would be cancelled if he were still around -- so it's not surprising that popular music isn't as male-dominated as it was then.
Somewhere Over the Rainbow is not a song meant for Mick Jagger. Sixteen Tons is not a song for Judy Garland.
Yes, but wouldn't it be fun if they did sing those songs? Youtube does have a sixteen year old Judy Garland performing "Sweet Sixteen" on "Good News of 1938," though.
In horse racing, mares compete with the males. And win, sometimes.
Now I'm wondering how that works, and how the racetracks arrange things so the horses aren't just copulating instead of running races.
I think men's and women's voices in song are so distinctly different that separate categories are appropriate. I was thinking particularly of gospel music where a really powerful woman's voice can send chills up your spine.
Oh, I can’t believe after all that about pronouns, I did an update where I wrote “ Let him designate which of the 2 categories he wants for himself.” Will fix.
“ Quick, name the great female groups that can compete in the same realm as those above”
Based on my experience at the time in the 60s, I would say The Chrystals, The Chiffons, and The Shirells. But that was all in the early 60s. In the late 60s, maybe the mixed groups: The Jefferson Airplane and The Mamas and Papas. And then some soloists: Judy and Joni and Laura.
"Why should music be divided into male and female?"
Well, "music" shouldn't be. Or perhaps it should since there have been so many more great male creators of new music. But performance of popular music could be. Talents differ. Division celebrates diversity. More progressive.
"What's progressive? It's totally retrograde."
And yet, Stone was the best part of the piece. Might the "it's totally retrograde" old-feminist indignation be what the SNLers were trying to provoke?
I prefer listening to male singers. I don't think it's a matter of feeling like I am being sung to, it's more that I can comfortably sing along. (Anyone listening to me would probably argue about whether I am "singing along" or just making accompanying noise. I will never be mistaken for a singer.)
“I observe that Ann's connection to a relationship with the male singer seems to be a general one for females. I just have to think back to watching the almost 100% female audience at the Ed Sullivan show when the Beatles appeared. Besides the screaming and fainting, almost all of the girls/women were mouthing the name of their favorite individual Beatle: "Paul!!" "John!!" "Riiingo!!". Each one of them was dreaming that a particular Beatle was singing directly to them, when in fact, there was no chance of that whatsoever. Did that deter them from the romantic notion? Not one bit.”
Reminds me of a comment I made recently at the passing of Lisa Marie Presley. In the early 1970s, my partner was running the floral shop at the Hilton in Las Vegas, where Lisa Marie’s father was playing. She would talk to him on the phone, on occasion about his flowers. He gave a lot of them away. One time, he asked if she knew who he was (got a lot of that in her job). She told him that when he was on Ed Sullivan, she and her two sisters would put on lipstick, sitting in front of the TV, watching him, and each one screaming, knowing that he was looking at her. Then, she told him, she grew up. He responded that he wasn’t sure if he should feel insulted or complimented. She responded that it was his choice. She got a pair of front row seats and back stage passes for her effrontery. If he had given her three tickets, she might have taken her father and his brother, who were the really avid Elvis fans - her uncle going so far as naming his youngest daughter, born 6 months after Elvis’ daughter, after her.
This was about the time that I discovered his music. Before that, I had always chalked him up to being one of those singers who catered to girls (I felt the same about the Beatles) - like Ann (3 months younger than I). I much preferred the music of singers and bands singing to males, than trying to woo females, like The Beach Boys. Now, a half century, and more, later, the one singer that we both agree on is Elvis.
Maybe that song is titled Gloria, but that is not the real Gloria
Male sex and masculine gender. Female sex and feminine gender.
Men, women, and "our Posterity" are from Earth. Feminists are from Venus. Masculinists are from Mars. Social progressives are from Uranus. War of the world. #HateLovesAbortion
“In horse racing, mares compete with the males. And win, sometimes.”
“Now I'm wondering how that works, and how the racetracks arrange things so the horses aren't just copulating instead of running races.”
Pretty much only humans have hidden estrus. You pretty much know when most other species are in heat. And when the mares are, you just don’t run them. If you did, it wouldn’t be horses mating, but all of the stallions fighting for the right to mate that mare. And the rare gelding would run away with the prize. They are rare, because the real money is in the stud fees, after the stallions are retired.
'Based on my experience at the time in the 60s, I would say The Chrystals, The Chiffons, and The Shirells. But that was all in the early 60s. In the late 60s, maybe the mixed groups: The Jefferson Airplane and The Mamas and Papas. And then some soloists: Judy and Joni and Laura.'
Compared to the Beatles, Who, Stones, etc., the ones you mentioned are of their era...they are not relevant in the modern world.
Great in the '60s but that's it.
Airplane/Starship is a hippie novelty act. Mamas and Papas were folk/hippie. Very dated...
'OK Joe Smith, how about...
Diana Ross & Supremes
Martha & Vandellas
Ronettes
Shirelles
Destiny's Child
Chiffons
Andrews Sisters (old school)
The Roches
Indigo Girls
Heart
Mamas (w/out Papas)
LaBelle
Pointer Sisters
TLC
Bananarama
GoGo's
Bangles'
C-my answer to AA.
The above are not on the same planet as Beatles, Stones, Led Zeppelin, etc.
I never liked women's voices until Linda Ronstadt. Today I attribute that to early sound engineering that focused on enhancing male voices and somehow made women's shrill. I just found women's voices unpleasant.
I never hear lyrics, just the instrument that is the voice, so the Althouse response doesn't work for me. I do remember not understanding girls who chose to go gaga over the Beatles. I infinitely preferred boys I knew and had the possibility of actually kissing. I had a boyfriend once who sang to me when we were out walking.
"Somewhere Over the Rainbow is not a song meant for Mick Jagger."
I'd love to hear Jagger singing Over the Rainbow.
This will have to do for now.
"* Morrissey"
He's been cancelled.
How the Hell did they get her right armpit to look that smooth?
Probably a digital thing.
They, referring to one person, amounts to human appropriation.
Social slavery.
They shoulda had “Newman” overseeing the entire enterprise.
“Oh, I can’t believe after all that about pronouns, I did an update where I wrote “ Let him designate which of the 2 categories he wants for himself.” Will fix.”
Too late! You’ve been reported, professor!
my peeves are tenet v tenant, principle v principal
adding predominately now
I do have sympathy for people with word confusion. I've been struggling with "affect v. effect" my entire life. Basically, i've gotten tired of looking up these damn words everytime, and nowjust write "effect" and if the "effects" you the wrong way. Too effecing bad.
The Supremes
Andrew Sisters
Ronettes
McQUire Sisters
All pretty good "girl groups". If you want a good "girl" R/B besides that seems to been forgotten, listen to Ruth Brown.
Latest "female" music fury this afternoon is on Daily Mail.
The Trans Cultural Mindfulness Alliance (TCMA) wants Aretha Franklin's "Natural Woman" banned and pulled off Spotify and Apple Music. Guess it's ok to leave it on Amazon Music.
Seriously. They've lost their minds, and we are losing ours submitting to their demands.
But I don't understand why they are offended. If you can talk some heterosexual dude in to having sex with you post vagina creation surgery, doesn't the chorus of that song in particular fit what you were seeking?
Make it make sense!!! Is there a public school teacher in the hiz-ouse that can explain this to me??? Perhaps with an illustrated book or something??
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
The idea that it's not sexist crap to have a woman sprawled out like that and writhing because the woman is OLD is such bullshit.
OK. But isn't it up to Sharon Stone to decide how she wants to perform and how she want's to be objectified?
What if Sharon Stone just considers it art?
Are we really talking about sexism here or the psychological profile of Sharon Stone and Norma Desmond?
I agree with those who say their should be different categories because male and female voices are so different. I don't think I've ever mistaken one for the other. Been thinking a lot about whether I prefer male of female voices and have come to the conclusion that I'm gender neutral. I love the best of both.
When Sharon Stone rose up and turned, what stood out to this male gaze were the wrinkles at the place where here left breast attached to her chest. Very prominent. I noticed the camera cut away fast
Should we Take a Closer Look at That Chest?
When Sharon Stone rose up and turned, what stood out to this male gaze were the wrinkles at the place where here left breast attached to her chest. Very prominent. I noticed the camera cut away fast
Should we Take a Closer Look at That Chest?
When Sharon Stone rose up and turned, what stood out to this male gaze were the wrinkles at the place where here left breast attached to her chest. Very prominent. I noticed the camera cut away fast
Should we Take a Closer Look at That Chest?
Lizzo not available?
Progress is an [unqualified] monotonic process. Progressive is an ideological and religious philosophy. One step forward, two steps backward. #PrinciplesMatter
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
The idea that it's not sexist crap to have a woman sprawled out like that and writhing because the woman is OLD is such bullshit.
Feminists, social progressives, and the "industry" would disagree. There is a compelling cause to liberate women and girls for the labor market, State revenue, couches with "benefits", and "burden" indemnity.
How much of academic discourse is a recipe for Eunuch Nation?
Anyway, if you kind of like biology and men and women getting into it, here's a Beyonce song I love
Yeah! Put a fucking ring on it!
It's a shout-out for marriage. That's right!
@Althouse wrote: "Your theory is just wrong. Maybe some people are looking to identify with the singer, but some, maybe, most of us prefer to feel that we are being sung *to*. Disparaging teenagers is something you might want to rise above."
Late reply after a stale post, but I'm getting to it now.
"Most of us" -- well there's the rub. This a statistics and data-driven topic with plenty of real data out there. Most musical genres have commercial value and are indeed tracked by demographics and business value. Awards shows often aim to span the entire market (e.g., Grammy, BBC, Brit Awards) or focus on new generation music (e.g., NME) or specific niches. I'm not disparaging teenagers, teenage girls are dumped into marketing-driven category and boy bands have been manufactured by industry capitalists for many many many years. They are the cynical ones, and they are the ones who sell the same formula over and over and over. I actually find it sad that it's so easy to fool the young and that businesses make so much money from the predictable choices of the young.
Overall, you are repeating the Grammy Awards / mainstream music error. Recall that Jethro Tull was awarded Heavy Metal Album of the Year in 1989 over Metallica, Jane's Addiction, Iggy Pop, and AC/DC! This reflected gross ignorance of the heavy metal and a defective voting system. Jethro Tull was the obvious orange among apples for heavy metal fans, which reinforced sarcastic views award show as the "Grannies". Still, they had this reputation long before 1989 and appealed to a stodgy middle of the road market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Best_Hard_Rock/Metal_Performance_Vocal_or_Instrumental
Mainstream commercial pop is a completely different world than hardcore genre music. Yes there is a large blurry poppy middle ground and yes people listen to others speaking and replicate romantic conversations through male/female duets. However, there are many gendered genres that aren't in the middle and that provide no evidence of broad appeal across sexes or even personality types. If you've attended a concert by a genre group then it's plain that their commercial success is often intensely bio-gender driven. Boy bands attract young girls and their mothers. Taylor Swift's use of acoustic guitars sparked a huge boom of teenage female guitar players. True non-pop heavy metal attracts males age 16+ a la Beavis and Butthead. Etc.
https://inews.co.uk/news/taylor-swift-female-guitar-sale-phallic-157326
Your poll even included an item "To reinforce the distinction between the sexes." That is sometimes absolutely true. Music has always attracted gay and androgynous performers (e.g., Little Richard, David Bowie, Mick Jagger), but attraction often still splits into clear sex differences. It's not a simple topic and it doesn't have a simple answer.
"Put a fucking ring on it!"
If ya need that sort of help..
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