Althouse: Listening to the oral argument in the Supreme Court's affirmative action case.

October 31, 2022

Listening to the oral argument in the Supreme Court's affirmative action case.

31 comments:

Joe Smith said...: The way to stop discriminating based on race is to stop discriminating based on race.

Somebody said that once.

Seems self-evident...; 10/31/22, 9:14 AM
Dave Begley said...: SCOTUS to destroy our democracy. Our something.; 10/31/22, 9:15 AM
Big Mike said...: Hey! Hey!
Ho! Ho!
Affirmative Action has to go!

Along with Title IX. And “believe all women” no matter how egregious their lies.; 10/31/22, 9:46 AM
Temujin said...: Seems to me the issue is being missed completely. That there may be fewer Black Americans at the university level is not a reflection necessarily on the university acceptance process, but is more likely a reflection of the less quality education of the high schools, middle schools, and grade schools that preceded that application to college. We're using the universities to be the remedial schooling for kids who had bad or lesser K-12 educations.

How is it possible that the action to remedy a bad or slighted education in K-12, is to allow that person who had the lesser education to enter a university with very specific standards and requirements, knowing they do not meet those requirements or are not among the top of those who do? If this is done, and continued to be done, the result will be to have to lower the standards and requirements of those universities, changing the education level for all- in order to 'save' one, or a few. And by 'save', I mean, to hand them a diploma. In fact, we've seen that in curricula changed and created to match up with the abilities and requests of incoming students. The kids are directing what is taught.

There is no reason whatsoever to have the race, religion, gender, age, or any other box to check on a college application other than to use racism to benefit one group, to the detriment of another. If its not right one way, how can it be right in any way?

All of our focus, as a nation, should be on freeing up the education system, K-12, in this country. So many of our ills could be corrected and changed if our kids- all of our kids- had a better opportunity to get a better education. The government system has been shown to be limited. To work in some places, but to mostly not work at all. One merely needs to compare grades of 4th and 8th graders around the world to see where we currently stand. That we allow the Randi Weingartens of the world direct our kids lives is unconscionable.; 10/31/22, 10:13 AM
Mark said...: Kavanaugh holding O'Connor to her 25 year time limit.; 10/31/22, 10:18 AM
gahrie said...: One merely needs to compare grades of 4th and 8th graders around the world to see where we currently stand.

Actually, when you account for certain demographics, we aren't so bad.; 10/31/22, 10:27 AM
gahrie said...: That there may be fewer Black Americans at the university level is not a reflection necessarily on the university acceptance process, but is more likely a reflection of the less quality education of the high schools, middle schools, and grade schools that preceded that application to college.

Those schools were run by Black school boards, and had Black administrations and teaching staffs.; 10/31/22, 10:28 AM
BarrySanders20 said...: "Family lore" says I have an ancestor who is an American Indian . . . Great question!; 10/31/22, 10:32 AM
WisRich said...: KBJ lecturing from the Bench again.; 10/31/22, 10:47 AM
Richard Aubrey said...: GAHRIE
You can get the per-pupil expenditure of every school system in the country off the net.
That's how I found my kids' great K-12 education cost about two dollars more than half of Flint's appalling performance. We lived in Flushing, next to Flint.; 10/31/22, 11:07 AM
mccullough said...: These schools do a poor job of diversity. They lump Irish, Germans, Jews, Italians, English, Scots-Irish, Greeks, French, Lithuanians, Russians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Czechs, Swiss, Austrians, and Armenians as White. Where’s the diversity?

Then we get Spaniards, Portuguese, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Cubans as Latino?

Don’t get me started on Asians. It suffices to note that Indians and Han Chinese are quite distinct.

And Blacks include progeny of slaves in the US as well as those like Obama whose ancestry doesn’t include American slaves. 10% of Blacks in the US are immigrants.

Does North Carolina have a Critical Mass of Armenians?

Why the fuck not?; 10/31/22, 11:32 AM
Mike Sylwester said...: This is a good opportunity to remind everyone that I do not feel sorry for any Oriental-Americans who suffer discrimination in college admissions but nevertheless vote Democrat.; 10/31/22, 11:36 AM
MikeR said...: No one of any color gets into Harvard who isn't from a rich family. This is part of the scam run by the elite to bar entry.; 10/31/22, 11:42 AM
n.n said...: Affirmative action is merely a positive step. The problem is affirmative discrimination under DIE (e.g. racism, sexism, transgenderism, ageism, classicism). #HateLovesAbortion; 10/31/22, 11:46 AM
n.n said...: Most expensive education product on the planet with progressive returns in a trickle-down (i.e. single/central/monopolistic, redistributive) system.; 10/31/22, 11:48 AM
Owen said...: Many good exchanges. "When do we know it's over?" is IMHO a very powerful line of questioning. It builds on CJ Roberts' observation that the way to stop racial discrimination is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.

I also think that those defending the AAA (Affirmative Action Admissions) policies are somewhat trapped by the "disparate impact" argument in the context of discipline and punishment. In that context we cannot exceed the ratio in the general population: left-handed Lithuanians are 3% and so those arrested and imprisoned cannot exceed 3%. But this kind of quota doesn't happen when it comes to admitting students to schools. No account is being taken of race. That's a result that just kind of happens magically. Gorsuch and Alito really took that apart: "If race isn't that important, why do you need that box on the application? And so you won't mind if we rule against using it at all, right?"; 10/31/22, 11:59 AM
Birches said...: Umm. I listened in at one point and assumed the speaker was ACB because she sounded young, but she was going on (very heatedly) about how volunteering race was optional on an application. Was that KBJ? She sounded really, really young.; 10/31/22, 12:36 PM
Achilles said...: Shouldn't the judges who got their jobs because of Affirmative Action recuse themselves from this case?; 10/31/22, 1:39 PM
Achilles said...: Birches said...

Umm. I listened in at one point and assumed the speaker was ACB because she sounded young, but she was going on (very heatedly) about how volunteering race was optional on an application. Was that KBJ? She sounded really, really young.

Just like getting a job or getting into college is... voluntary.

The justifications of racists for their racism are always entertaining.; 10/31/22, 1:42 PM
Gospace said...: Temujin said...
Seems to me the issue is being missed completely. That there may be fewer Black Americans at the university level is not a reflection necessarily on the university acceptance process, but is more likely a reflection of the less quality education of the high schools, middle schools, and grade schools that preceded that application to college.

maybe, maybe not. It also may have something to do with innate differences that education cannot solve.

Just like with sex differences- male IQ curves are wider then females. Males have more smarter smarter males, and more dumber males, then females have smater and dumber females. Shows up in statistics- more men in prison (or hospitalized) for doing, well, dumb things, and more men in the top of high IQ professions and dominating mind sports- like chess and go.

Innate differences between sexes is a liberal verboten subject, so verboten that we must allow males pretending to be females participate in women's sports, where they immediately dominate.

Innate differences between races? Is there a word stronger than verboten? If we admit people to colleges and professions that require advanced education and knowledge based soley on ability, males, Assians, and caucasians will be overrepresented by populstion count. And, no one will look with suspicon on a black who becomes a doctor or lawyer thinking he (or she) got there from affirmative action rather then actual skill.; 10/31/22, 1:43 PM
gilbar said...: As with Most Things, RA Heinlein predicted this issue, and SOLVED it.
In his book Friday, the California Confederacy became aware of the fact, that college graduates on average made more money than did non college graduates.
The California Confederacy SOLVED this problem, by issuing college diplomas to ALL residents of California.
Problem SOLVED!

I'll leave it to the student to determine If the USA has followed this Same Course; 10/31/22, 1:45 PM
Readering said...: California outlawed affirmative action in higher ed decades ago. But UC devotes enormous resources to attract sufficient numbers of minorities to approach, not match, CA demographics. Which differ from demographics of other states. What demographics should administrators look at? Presumably Harvard and UNC look at different demographics. Harvard looks at US, not MA. No one wants quotas, but folks do want a student body that reflects society. But what does that mean? And where do foreign students fit in? Pre-pandemic, foreign, especially Asian, especially Chinese, students were a significant part of USC student body. Not sure now.; 10/31/22, 1:48 PM
n.n said...: Affirmative action is merely a positive step. The problem is affirmative discrimination under DIE (e.g. racism, sexism, transgenderism, ageism). #HateLovesAbortion; 10/31/22, 1:56 PM
Jefferson's Revenge said...: It seems that if 3 generations of Affirmative Action and EEO policies have not fixed the problem yet, it's either the wrong tool or there is something intrinsically wrong with black people that makes them unable to learn. Since I do not believe the latter is true, it is pretty clear this tool doesn't work.

Like I once said to someone , you won't convince me that you care about educational quality until you get rid of teachers' unions and/or allow vouchers for charter schools.; 10/31/22, 1:59 PM
Mike Sylwester said...: My own comment at 11:36 AM
This is a good opportunity to remind everyone that I do not feel sorry for any Oriental-Americans who suffer discrimination in college admissions but nevertheless vote Democrat. (emphasis added)

CORRECTION

I inadvertently wrote the wrong expression Oriental-Americans.

I meant to write Asian-Americans.

Please make the mental correction.; 10/31/22, 2:05 PM
Owen said...: Birches@ 12:36: “…Was that KBJ?” Pretty sure the answer is yes: the speaker was verbose but not terribly articulate and spent her energy trying to downplay the importance of the race box on the application form —which would undermine the point made by Alito and Kavanaugh that it must be there for a reason (just as there must be a reason for Harvard admission officers to “triage” applications, which leads to Asian applicants getting low personality scores, which Harvard assures the Court are not actually part of the admission decision (!!?!!! Then why do it?!?))

Harvard’s problem is, it has been doing what Grutter allowed decades ago grudgingly and on the condition that it have an end date; yet there is no end in sight. The end —magical self-executing “diversity”— isn’t even defined, nor is there a plan for getting there, nor metrics to gauge progress against the plan. Its eloquent counsel mostly kept saying, “We are Harvard, trust us.” Meh.; 10/31/22, 2:50 PM
Drago said...: readering: "No one wants quotas,...."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLxinfinity

Too funny.

Thanks readering. That was just the joke for an afternoon pick me up.; 10/31/22, 3:25 PM
Richard Aubrey said...: In the Sixties, Michigan State University had a group which went to Rust College, HBCU, for "premediation". They had raised enough money to put up maybe half the incoming freshmen for six weeks of intensive prep for college. This was to make up for the appalling K-12 ed available to black kids in MS at the time. It allowed them to get up to college work and for Rust to keep its accreditation. The instructors were MSU students mostly, upper classmen and grads.
It was a hell of a lot of work.

Affirmative action....don't even break a sweat and feel really good about yourself.; 10/31/22, 3:47 PM
Birches said...: I just reviewed this Twitter feed and yes, I think the very immature sounding voice was KBJ. Interesting.

Also Lol. Waxman corrects Sotomayor, who has been saying "stimulation" rather than "simulation" all day.

Chef's kiss. I was recruited by a couple of Ivy schools because of my minority status and good PSAT score. I never even looked into it because I didn't think I could afford it. I had no idea about financial aid for working class kids. Now I'm glad I didn't pursue. I would not have been able to do the work.; 10/31/22, 3:56 PM
Earnest Prole said...: California dumped affirmative action more than twenty-five years ago and reaffirmed that decision in the last election 57-43. Current demographics at UC Berkeley (3 percent Black, 40 percent Asian) foretell what Harvard will soon look like if the Supreme Court rules against it.; 10/31/22, 4:13 PM
Breezy said...: Ahem! Where is the viewpoint diversity quota? Isn’t that more helpful for building leaders in our community? Can we have affirmative action for that?; 10/31/22, 4:39 PM