Write Meg Kelly and Elyse Samuels at the Washington Post "Fact Checker," addressing the many statements by Trump that the Black Lives Matter protests involve antifa.
This, by the way, was also the problem the NYT had with the Tom Cotton op-ed. As I said when the NYT first expressed regret for publishing the piece:
A particular problem with Cotton's piece was that it said "left-wing radicals like antifa infiltrating protest marches to exploit Floyd’s death for their own anarchic purposes," but the NYT has not yet reported that the violent element was antifa. Its news story on June 1 had said "conservative commentators are asserting with little evidence that antifa, the far-left anti-fascism activist movement coordinates the riots and looting."I added: "Why isn't there more reporting in the NYT about who's responsible for the violence and disorder accompanying the protests?"
Whether Cotton was right or wrong about the facts, there is a problem with factual assertions in op-eds. I've written op-eds for the NYT, and it was with a very short deadline and I was trusted to get the facts in order. I don't know how much the Times intends to change its process, but I assume it wants and needs to have some distance between itself and the writers it brings in from the outside to give a hot take on a breaking controversial story.
I'm mildly glad to see the WaPo Fact Checker addressing this topic, but it's pathetic that this basic level of journalistic inquiry is coming so late. It is, however, horrible that Trump (and Cotton) have spread this meme. Maybe they are right and the Fact Checker is wrong, but it's not enough to luck out in the end and have said something that turns out to be the truth. We should care about the truth for the sake of truth and care about it all along. There's so little of that these days.
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328 comments:
1 – 200 of 328 Newer› Newest»Why would there be Ann, when these protests have been overwhelmingly peaceful and the best expression of participatory democracy going back to the Boston Tea Party-at least that what I have been assured
It seems like Alice has finally decided to step through the Looking-Glass. Please whatever you do don't let this overdose of realpolitik affect your ability to make art. I will be very disappointed if you are sunrise photos suffer from it
It would be interesting to know who it was that was dropping off hods of bricks at protest sites if not Antifa. Barr says Antifa is one of them. The press has been covering for Antifa because it’s all part of the billionaire’s agenda that has taken over our media, so you won’t find press reports of it in any dominant news outlet. The New York Times used to cover stuff like this, but those days are. long past.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/04/william-barr-claims-he-has-evidence-antifa-is-hijacking-george-floyd-protests/
I guess we can wait for the trials before we call people liars. HA HA HA JKLOL!
"Four Pinocchios" for something they haven't even tentatively proven as untrue, only that they claim evidence hasn't been presented for it?
I remember just a few days ago some leftist ranting "The claim that there are anarchists involved in these riots is false!", accompanied by a picture in which a guy in the background was clearly spray painting the anarchist A-In-a-Circle logo.
The standard seems to be, 100% benefit of the doubt is given to Antifa, and absolutely zero benefit of the doubt is given to a Republican President or Senator. If they don't share the same position, and Antifa fans in the press don't accept the evidence that has been given (and who will make them accept it?), Trump is 100% lying. Four Pinocchios. Period.
Someone has resorted to violence including shooting and arson.
If it's not Antifa, then who? BLM? The police?
Truth about systemic racism would be nice. That it doesn't exist.
Perhaps I am confused, but I’ve seen videos of people with an ANTIFA logo on their shirts hitting cops with skateboards.
I’ve also seen videos of people self narrating how they got ANTIFA training to learn how to start riots and how they participated in city X.
Finally, I’m a dog owner and when my shoe smells like dog sh*t I know what I stepped in, without a large scientific inquiry.
-XC
I identify the rioters as extremely stupid people, not particularly Antifa. Though Antifa has a video history of extreme stupidity.
I call BULLSHIT. All you have to do is watch video of them in action. Maybe they should take the Progressive blinders off, so they can actually see what is happening in America, but they would probably need to go to a safe place and cry.
Wapoo fact checker to person arrested for rioting: Do you have an official antifa ID badge
antifa: No
Wapoo: See, no antifa here!
I'll take the word of Liberal Jonathan Turley, before I would even think about reading anything from WAPO or NYT. https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/500605-antifa-and-anarchists-have-hijacked-floyd-protests-but-left-wont-admit-it
Here’s the truth:
Flynn was set up.
There was no Russian collusion.
The impeachment was a sham.
Biden’s still peddling the “fine people” hoax.
Roberts has abandoned any pretext of reading the law as written.
The as-yet-unreleased information about who’s leading the riots is not in the same universe.
Even Newsweek knows it....https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-far-left-violence-extremism-deadly-year-opnion-1477065
I haven't read the WaPo article because it is behind a paywall, but I'm skeptical of other similar analyses that have been performed by other media, because most of them just look at court records, e.g. indictments, and say "doesn't mention Antifa, therefore no connection to Antifa!" But being affiliated with Antifa (there's no formal membership process, as far as I know) isn't actually a crime yet, so if you're indicting someone for burning police cars or looting, I don't know why you'd include that in the indictment -- it'll just make the indictment look more political.
It's quite possible that the President et al. are making stuff up the same way Democratic local officials initially tried to blame riots on outside right-wing agitators (also with no evidence whatsoever). But Antifa have enough of a record of "protest" thuggery -- e.g. goons like Yvette Felarca, Eric Clanton, etc., who beat people up in broad daylight and get off with minimal or no charges thanks to sympathetic prosecutors -- that it would be surprising if they had suddenly turned over a new leaf.
All that said, I suspect the President prefers to emphasize Antifa because he wants to deracialise the problem of violence. If most of the looting is Blacks using BLM as an excuse with Antifa just along for the ride, pointing to Antifa is a way of criticising the people egging on the violence without highlighting that it's BLM that's leading the violence.
It is, however, horrible that Trump (and Cotton) have spread this meme.
Are you kidding me? They haven't spread this meme. It's not a meme. It's a reality. In Portland every weekend for a year. See who gets beat up and who is running the streets of that city. Or Seattle. Have you not seen Anitfa's actions over our campuses over the past few years? And, whoa...did you happen to miss the riots/protests for BLM?
This is parody, right? This is not serious. Cannot be. Or its just willful blindness- which usually is how social breakdown occurs. Those who hold the reins to the bureaucracy, the media, and many political offices pretend that what is happening, is not happening. It's their tacit approval. Their saying, "Hey...we're on your side." And then, one day, there's a knock at their door. Or there's a neighbor turning them in. Or large group of youths surrounding them and screaming at them while pointing their fingers.
The Left is so fucking literal. OK...let's give them that they could not find an actual leader of these protests who was Antifa. But do you think the riots were not spurred on by Antifa? Or that Antifa was not among the CNN approved 'peaceful' protestors in large numbers? Or that Antifa (and their sponsors) were not running social media and coordinating these attacks? If you do believe that, then you are again, blind by preference.
I care not a whit about 'fact checkers' from a paper who's entire raison d'etre is to destroy Trump and remove conservatism. This game is done. I'm surprised at your shallow view on this.
So, if they don't self-identify, then they don't exist and the criminal act never occurred????
Cool, a new legal loophole courtesy of the WaPo. Maybe all criminals should use it.
I'm sorry Ms. Althouse. Considering the number of people involved in the ri0ting, looting, and burning across the country I find it difficult to believe that there has not been a single incidence of a person "self identifying" as anti-fa in the "protest". Now if the NYT or WaPO told me that there was not a single instance of a person "self identifying" as a unicorn, I might be able to accept that.
little evidence that antifa ... coordinates the riots and looting
Coordinate versus participate.
Obviously, it's all run from Moscow and Beijing.
"Why isn't there more reporting in the NYT about who's responsible for the violence and disorder accompanying the protests?"
The answers are apparently unfit to print.
So the violence is all Black Lives Matter driven, and not antifa?
Still cruelly neutral I see. Are those right-wing occupiers in CHOP? Are they Buddhist sympathizers? It's so hard to tell!
We already went through this word game charade when Trump labelled the group a terrorist unit, they are designed and structured entirely to provide plausible deniability to liberal commentators who want to provide cover for it just like they just did.
I don't even know why they bother, it's not like the fact BLM has direct linkage to Democrat party stops said commentators from pretending it's a benign apolitical hashtag rather than a blatant partisan movement. They also pull the same word game charade with BLM, only instead of out right denying it exists they pretend it's not a partisan movement which they then use to try and act as if the protests the group ferments are significantly different to Trump rally.
The phrase 'I'm tired' is in vogue these days and I sure as hell am tired of their word games.
"led violent acts"? So, if they aren't the leader, Antifa involvement is a lie? Portland violent protests and Andy Ngo's Twitter feed might show different results. Libs live in a vacuum where 1984 is their manifesto.
THEOLDMAN
Also - violent members of a fascistic organization are now allowed to SELF identify as part of that group. Like, you know, we could have a ton of evidence that a guy belongs to AL Qaeda, but if he doesn't ADMIT he's AL Qaeda, then he can't possibly be confirmed as AL Qaeda.
That is WaPos standard here. Literally.
I feel worst for Drago.
Something tells me that if and when Meg and Elyse get raped their rapists won't self-identify as rapists. But maybe I'm just being cynical.
Anyway, Andy Ngo has been documenting Antifa violence for some time now, at the cost in the past of a minor brain hemorrhage:
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1274976994493468673
These are the days of miracle and wonder, where nothing is true anymore and it's right-wing extremists shooting people in CHAZ/CHOP.
Sort of the inverse of Peter Pan in Neverland: if you disbelieve hard enough, Wendy, if you, truly, truly disbelieve, you, too, can fly!
Also, you don't just have to admit to being Antifa after being caught, you have to have LED the violence.
Only then could Cotton or Trump not be considered less than horrible for claiming Antifa is involved.
Meanwhile, everyone knows "Bugaloos" are everywhere and inciting everything.
This is all so fucking absurd. We have jumped the shark as a nation.
Andy Ngo was inside CHAZ and wrote a page one story for the New York Post about it. These riots have lots of antifa people in them.
“The Facts
Antifa is a moniker, not a single group with a clear organizational structure or leader. It is a decentralized network of activists who don’t coordinate. Their common ground is opposing anything that they think is racist or fascist. In recent years, antifa activists appeared whenever there was a large gathering of white nationalists. “
The wapo’s point is that you can’t refer to people by a moniker. Trump gets 4 Pinocchio’s for doing this.
The authors argue that there is no antifa, but if even if their were they were peaceful, all the violence was done by white supremacists. With this incisive evidence based reporting I now wonder who did the looting and car burning? And who cares what their real “secret” name is if not antifa.
I thought white supremacists were dumb hicks with 80 iqs. They must actually be criminal geniuses, because blue cities would love to arrest them in mass to shed blame from their supporters. This is an unserious piece bereft of any intellectual content.
From what I can tell about the burning of buildings in Minneapolis, is that it was caused solely by spontaneous combustion. Also, is was not bricks breaking the windows in those stores, but large hail falling from the sky.
One of the questions is if Antifa is seen as needing to be a group that someone is an 'official member' of, or if it is the umbrella term for those who walk, talk and quack like Antifa ducks.
The media seems to need the former; I've seen the protesters in Seattle, some up-close, and believe the latter is sufficient.
Of the few I have spoken with, I think they consider themselves as part of a movement in which 'Antifa' -- the websites, the videos -- is a leader; on whether they consider themselves a member, it depends on who is asking them the question (and what the ramifications are of the answer).
There are also a lot of wannabes -- like the kids who dress and talk gangsta, but aren't officially part of a set; there is overlap.
Do you have to be a card-carrying member of the Party to be considered a Socialist or a Communist? Because then I bet a lot of the violent protestors aren't Antifa OR Communist OR Socialist. Quack.
(the Capital letters thing: they're antifa, not Antifa. Obviously. Also: small 'c', small 's'.)
I am Laslo.
Why isn't there more reporting in the NYT about who's responsible for the violence and disorder accompanying the protests?
Since we are prodded by the media to recognize the protests as immensely important in world history the identity of the perpetrators, their motives and the origins of their funding would all seem newsworthy. The lack of intellectual curiosity by investigative reporters at WaPo and NYT tells us what they're not telling us...
Andy Ngo was inside CHAZ and wrote a page one story for the New York Post about it. These riots have lots of antifa people in them.
Ngo and Lara Logan have been diligent in trying to expose what WaPo wants to label with Pinocchios.
Just as a reminder: WaPo Fact Checker is Op-Ed. They have granted themselves permission not to involve themselves with either facts or checking.
I think, despite President Trump having had a fairer hearing here than in most media outlets, espcially those run by profesors, that our hostess is trying to prepare her readers for the moment that she comes out for Joe Biden.
Wasn't there some undercover reporting recently of Antifa training its supporters in gouging out eyes? There's none so blind as those who will not see.
Most white demonstrators are probably not Antifa and most black demonstrators are probably not BLM, riots have their own gravitational force and pick up planetary debris from everywhere. OTOH, I don't expect that a tiny town local paper like WaPo will help us figure things out.
I am confused. What is the other choice - black people like to loot and burn things? I thought a lot of the pictures of looters showed white people. Who are they anyhow?
Democracy Dies in Darknesss!
Same crowds as occupy wall street, the anti-trump rally in Chicago. Too coordinated.
But thanks for playing and you win the play at home version.
Leftist, with the heavy burden of carrying around sooo many standards! No wonder they are all so tired.
The "Fact Checkers" have done extensive research and determined all the violence is coming from the peaceful protesters centered around the Floyd death. Not some opportunistic Antifa group, that actually does not exist, as they have failed to file paper work in a timely fashion.
Weve gone full python, its like the attack in orlando 4 years ago,
"Still cruelly neutral I see. Are those right-wing occupiers in CHOP? Are they Buddhist sympathizers? It's so hard to tell!"
ROFL BRUH,
anyone who's primary source material for political discussion is the nyt, or the potomac compost is not neutral
....but is certainly cruel.
Infact I delivered the swamp shitrag as a lad in the 80s, both it's readership and printed material has been in a steep decline.(language languishes with bad alliteration)
One of the way sin which the bias shows itself:
The Tea Party was a loosely organized group of like-minded individuals with no clear leader. Therefore, every person who identified themselves as a member of the Tea Party represents and speaks for the Tea Party and it shall be judged by its worst elements.
Antifa is a loosely organized group of like-minded individuals with no clear leader. Therefore, nobody in antifa represents or speaks for antifa and it shall not be judged by the actions of its individual members.
Fine. If it was NOT antifa, then the blame for the violence, arson, and destruction lies completely with the black lives matters people.
Happy now?
I’m pretty sure the violence at recent protests was sparked by an obscure YouTube video no one had ever seen.
I think the people Cotton and Trump refer to as antifa are the people shown on video with black costumes hitting people with objects and throwing dangerous things to cause injury to people. If you have a better name for them, please let us know. This line of “fact checking” is a complete crock.
I don’t like Trump’s personality and have completely ignored his background in tv etc. but I dislike the alternative the Democrats have offered more. All this stupid adolescent press argumentation cements my support of Trump.I don’t want these journalistic morons to be closer to having power.
""Four Pinocchios" for something they haven't even tentatively proven as untrue, only that they claim evidence hasn't been presented for it?"
To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie.
The wapo’s point is that you can’t refer to people by a moniker.
People need something to refer to these disruptors who wish to remain both infamous and anonymous. If you won't provide one a moniker will be provided for you. If you don't like ours then help us out...
WaPo isn't all that interested in helping us out.
A particular problem with Cotton's piece was that it said "left-wing radicals like antifa infiltrating protest marches to exploit Floyd’s death for their own anarchic purposes,"
Really? I thought it was because their employees were literally on the floor in tears claiming they thought the call for military force made them unsafe.
Others who are interested are putting together the crazy walls with photos and financial disclosure statements and pushpins and skeins of yarn. Soros, OpenSecrets and other Soros funded political organizing organizations, convicted felons and people with public and less public social media pages identifying connections to left leaning activist groups, elected prosecutors in the hardest hit leftie cites all have pushpins and yarn connections.
Call that whatever you want.
""Four Pinocchios" for something they haven't even tentatively proven as untrue, only that they claim evidence hasn't been presented for it?"/"To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie."
How would you like to be accused of rape and when you say that's a lie, you're told that it's not even tentatively proven as untrue?
Al Qaeda is more aspirational than organizational. Every so often some lunatic will start murdering random strangers while calling on Allah. AQ will claim to be the inspiration of these events. In the protest marches, there are always a few dressed up in black ninja outfits. I don't know if they are actually antifa members or are simply posing as such. At any rate, it's more than just a fashion statement. Someone is throwing bricks and incendiary devices. I don't know if they were organized or just inspired by antifa, but they exist. They may be part of the platypus genus, but they walk like a duck.
"with little evidence that antifa, the far-left anti-fascism activist movement coordinates the riots and looting"
Yeah sure, more likely members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Blogger Balfegor said...
But being affiliated with Antifa (there's no formal membership process, as far as I know) isn't actually a crime yet, so if you're indicting someone for burning police cars or looting, I don't know why you'd include that in the indictment -- it'll just make the indictment look more political.
Being a member of Antifa doesn't need to be a crime, though I seem to recall it has been declared a terrorist organization. Is so, that would make membership or even support a crime.
Joining together with others, whether as a named organized group like Antifa or the Lions Club, to commit an illegal act is a conspiracy and conspiracy to commit a crime is illegal.
In Elia Kazan's bio "A Life" which I have still not reached an end to, Kazan talks about his membership in the Communist Party in the 30s. One of the things he mentions is a special "elite" status in which members would have no official membership card and they would not appear in party records. This was to protect them from govt. (Page 125 of the book)
Antifa probably has no official "membership" for similar reasons.
John Henry
Theres plenty of evidence as linehan ngo and company have shown as shideler turchin and co have given the big picture they chose to ignore it.
We will not know if Antifa was involved because as long as it not known, it will always be a false claim. So, who instigated violence and destruction? It will be random individuals acting alone. Of course, it's always OK to throw in Russian or right-wing involvement.
The press will never have any evidence of Biden's diminished mental state because they will not seek it, ergo they will never publish anything that even hints of it.
If you think the evidence is out there, don't just assert it. Link to something.
At WaPo, they say:
"Officials have arrested more than 14,000 people across 49 cities nationwide since May 27, according to a Washington Post tally of data provided by police departments and included in media reports. Thousands were arrested for low-level offenses, including curfew violations and failure to disperse. Roughly 80 federal charges, including murder and throwing molotov cocktails at police vehicles, reveal no evidence of an antifa plot. Four people who identify with the far-right extremist “boogaloo” movement are among those facing the most serious federal charges. Asked whether anyone who identifies as antifa had been charged, Department of Justice spokesman Matt Lloyd said via email, “We do not collect statistics based on potential inspiration but on unlawful acts according to statute.” An intelligence bulletin issued by the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the National Counterterrorism Center that was obtained by ABC News warned that “anarchist extremists continue to pose the most significant threat of targeted assaults against police.” The bulletin, which was distributed to police departments nationwide, mentions antifa only in a footnote differentiating those who self-identify with the group from anarchists."
“Antifa is a moniker, not a single group with a clear organizational structure or leader. It is a decentralized network of activists who don’t coordinate. Their common ground is opposing anything that they think is racist or fascist. In recent years, antifa activists appeared whenever there was a large gathering of white nationalists. “
Of course they coordinate. That is why Seattle AntiFA show up in Portland one weekend, and Portland AntiFA shows up in Seattle the next. It is that coordination that allows them to field small armies of armed protesters to specific cities, often via bus. And why pallets of bricks were dropped off across the country at strategic locations, right before the current rioting started.
But my prediction is that that cooperation across state lines is key to destroying, or at least countering, AntiFA by the DOJ. IF Portland AntiFA stayed in Portland, and Seattle AntiFA stayed in Seattle, the DOJ would be hard pressed to find anything that they could use to go after them. That is because the federal government doesn’t have a general police power, like the states do. Rather, federal crimes, for the most part have to affect interstate commerce. And the easiest way to find that is if the perps cross a state boundary. The feds probably can’t arrest you for burning down your neighbor’s house, but can if you live in Portland, and traveled to Seattle and burned the house down there.
The Mafia didn’t exist for a long time either.
As always, the burden of proof rests with the speaker
Mirthless laugh. Head shake. Sigh.
To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie.
The trick is to make up a word salad such that the very definition is itself obscures what data could be presented.
Trump should have referred to it as “structural Antifaism”.
Just a quick reminder: NYT and WashPost are propaganda outlets, not news organizations.
Truth is ever elusive, but if you want accurate facts, those two papers should be actively avoided.
The ATF task force arrested 50 people for arson in connection with the riots around the country the other day. Three were identified by the feds as members of a far fright fringe group. We haven't heard anything yet about the identity of the other 47. Maybe The Washington Post or The NY Times could sic one of their ace reporters on that story.
If correct then this is not good for the marchers and BLM.
It benefits left and right to claim “outside agitators” were at fault .
“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, ”
Of course, Andy Ngo is ignored by everyone with an agenda to ardently prove. I've seen the videos and dispatched that landed Ngo in the hospital. Antifa does exist, and they do commit violent acts. Just watch the Ngo videos.
I really believe we live in true revolutionary times, because the media is lying and gaslighting full-time, now.
I read the Jonathan Turley piece from 20 days ago that somebody linked to, and it does not provide evidence that WaPo missed. It says things like:
"The problem is that the most obvious culprits are all too familiar. A movement of anarchist, antifascist, and extreme left wing groups has been building for years, with violence from Washington to Berkeley. The most prominent is antifa, but there are also groups like By All Means Necessary with similar histories."
He's just guessing! And he's not specifying antifa (which WaPo says isn't even organized in any way that makes it possible to speak of people as being members). Turley says the same thing:
"This is a broad movement, not one group, which makes the suggested designation by President Trump of antifa as a terrorist organization both constitutionally and practically dubious."
Turley objects to Trump's characterization.
"Antifa, By All Means Necessary, and other militant or anarchist groups have disrupted universities across the country, including my own, for years. They have found many political and academic allies... Yet despite its violent history, some Democratic leaders have been enablers or outright supporters of the antifa movement, insisting that such groups cannot be compared to extreme right wing groups..."
Turley's piece is about the failure to look into what the violent left groups are doing. He's not identifying this particular group -- antifa -- as behind the violence accompanying the BLM protests.
"The rioting began due to deep seated and legitimate anger over police brutality and the tragic death of Floyd. Young people and others did not rush to the streets because they read a posting from some skinhead on the Stormfront website. Yet the references to white supremacists or Russians continued even as reports filtered in of antifa and anarchists being arrested in various cities."
Reports filtered in? Where? WaPo says "Roughly 80 federal charges, including murder and throwing molotov cocktails at police vehicles, reveal no evidence of an antifa plot." Now... that COULD mean there were a lot of people vaguely connected to antifa things, but nothing was actually planned to the point of deserving to be called a "plot." But Turley links to nothing when he mentions those "filtered" reports.
If you have better material than Turley's June 2d musings, you'd better link to them now. I will interpret vague denouncements of WaPo and me as a failure to come up with anything substantive.
"but it's not enough to luck out in the end and have said something that turns out to be the truth" - You have to be kidding me. The fact-checkers at the Post know they are pushing propaganda. THEY KNOW IT.
Trump and Cotton didn't get lucky. We all watched it with our own eyes.
So, the trick is to not self-identify when politically incongruent or to self-identify when there is a motive to hold a trial by press and get out of jail free by virtue of sympathetic judges, prosecutors, etc. WaPo is still hunting Soviets.
BLM
Some, select, Black Lives Matter. Diversity progresses in many forms.
"Why isn't there more reporting in the NYT about who's responsible for the violence and disorder accompanying the protests?"
One of the people arrested for looting in Milwaukee was a blonde; maybe that's why.
"There has not yet been a single confirmed case in which someone who self-identifies as antifa led violent acts at any of the protests across the country."
self-identifies...
But the misinformation created by his continued insistence of antifa’s involvement has led to more chaos and violence in an already turbulent moment.
Paywall. Did they say how Trump's "insistence" led to more chaos and violence?
Was it because non-Antifa rioters were enraged that Antifa was getting all the credit even though the lazy buggers were actually sitting on their hands letting everyone else do the heavy lifting?
If correct then this is not good for the marchers and BLM.
Exactly. All pronouncements (e.g. Charlottesville where Antifa setup an abortion zone for a lone driver) by the press (e.g. WaPo) have been fraudulent with ulterior motives. Then there are the so-called right-wing occupations (e.g. empty ranger station) that have been resolved through deadly force. The bigotry is profound and progressive #OccupySeattle
"What if the Mafia were not an organization but a widespread Sicilian attitude of hostility towards the law?"
How many ways can you say "bullshit"?
But like everything else the Left claims, and 99% of what's printed in the WaPo, it's pure crap.
I don't get too worked up about things like this because time tends to prove them wrong. Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election from Hillary, right?
a far fright fringe group
The left-right, totalitarian-anarchist nexus is leftist.
Like the 96,000 studies that surgisphete conjured up
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1274987176460083200
"This is a broad movement, not one group, which makes the suggested designation by President Trump of antifa as a terrorist organization both constitutionally and practically dubious."
We all see the word games being done around this. The word by word parsing. To me that's just proof of how accurate the overall conclusion is accurate.
Ann, you're being selective in what you choose to challenge. There's no evidence presented for the WaPo's assertion that "Antifa is a moniker, not a single group with a clear organizational structure or leader. It is a decentralized network of activists who don’t coordinate."
You implicitly accept this as true, though, without questioning it. Why?
This is rich coming from a Media Bigfoot like WaPo, which like the NYT has accommodated an antifa news black out, obeys antifa orders not to publish photos of antifa, and won’t even do their favorite lazy technique of identifying Twitter activity that would support the overwhelming prima facie evidence in front of you of staged projectiles (bricks, frozen water bottles) and organized anarchy. So after accommodating this news blackout, and exhibiting such a lack of curiosity about sudden similar violence exploding in particular places that Althouse even noticed the absence of reporting since 2016, the Media now play the “we can’t find no reporting” card. Funny how a lone journalist Andy Ngo has documented antifa better than the whole Mainstream Media! After they nearly killed him as punishment for writing about them he found enough of their organization to name names and sue them.
But no other person in “journalism” can find antifa for all their hard searching? The Devil you say!
Al-queda tired this sleight of hand too. 'al-queda' doesn't mean anything, doesn't refer to anyone. If you can't label us you can't catch us!!
Prince tried this shit, too...
BTW Andy Ngo is to Antifa as John Solomon was to Russia Collusion.
Follow him and you'll see exactly where this is going to go.
For many years, J. Edgar Hoover said there was no Mafia.
The Washington Post is satisfied with the proof that Russian Intelligence hacked Democrats' computers in order to help Donald Trump win the 2016 election.
It is, however, horrible that Trump (and Cotton) have spread this meme.
No, what's horrible is to deny what's going on under your very nose. Your problem here, if I understand you correctly in the kindest way, is that the labels don't properly match the referents, so words cannot encompass the situation. So let it continue, because we are to be forever the prisoner of words.
What words would you apply, if you weren't being so cruelly neutral, or trying to stay down with the in-crowd? What tests would you set? What evidence would you seek to gather?
Bonus points if you can offer a more effective solution than the Soviet method, which would (e.g.) be: to surround the CHAZ with about 300,000 troops from the other side of the country or from allies; move in and clean it out, with free use of artillery as needed; capture everybody left alive; scrub them to separate sheep from goats, with presumption of goathood; torture the goats to death or until they sing/compose; save the talking goats for show trials; 3am raids on everyone they identify as comrades, paymasters, water-bearers; lather, rinse, repeat.
Is that what you need to happen for your "evidence?" What would you settle for? If a group has composed itself to be unassailable by conventional legal, investigative means, what then, surrender? One would think that you had never heard of cell theory.
How do we stop the crocodile, according to your standards, before the crocodile eats you?
"I will interpret vague denouncements of WaPo and me as a failure to come up with anything substantive." -- Althouse
You don't need to be a weatherman, or provide a quote from a weatherman, to know which way the wind is blowing.
Antifa, BLM, OccupyWhatever: shadowy far-leftist street groups whose leadership, organization, and funding we know precious little about, and they specialize in rioting. So they are separate, autonomous groups that do not cooperate ?
But someone lit the fuse in Minneapolis- early. Cars with firebombs, strategically placed pallets of bricks. hooded guys with backpacks systematically knocking out windows with a jack-hammer, mob leaders communicating with confederates about the location of police in real time, etc. Somebody hijacked the protest early and potentiated the riot, and they vanished once the riot started. Of course, hardly anyone was arrested in the first few days, anyway.
Does anyone trust Keith Ellison to arrest and prosecute Antifa after he tweeted a picture of himself holding (& touting) a copy of the Antifa handbook ?
Maybe Antifa sat this one out, but it doesn't seem possible to me.
“...Asked whether anyone who identifies as antifa had been charged, Department of Justice spokesman Matt Lloyd said via email, “We do not collect statistics based on potential inspiration but on unlawful acts according to statute.” An intelligence bulletin issued by the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the National Counterterrorism Center that was obtained by ABC News warned that “anarchist extremists continue to pose the most significant threat of targeted assaults against police.” The bulletin, which was distributed to police departments nationwide, mentions antifa only in a footnote differentiating those who self-identify with the group from anarchists."”
Essentially what they are saying is that the feds are arresting people for committing acts that constitute federal crimes, and not for being members of AntiFA, which, thanks to our 1st Amdt cannot, itself, be a crime. They very likely are tracking AntiFA members. But at this level, that can just bring them to the attention of the feds. It is getting into their cars and driving across state lines to riot or commit arson that has to be proven. Motivation is, at this point, irrelevant, at least in court.
Except that it isn’t irrelevant. Someone is providing the busses to bus in AntiFA terrorists across state lines. Someone is funding much of this. Someone is coordinating much of this. Someone provided training over the last year. And the way to get to them is to flip the people on the bottom. And this is likely to be easier than with the Mafia, or even KKK because they probably aren’t at the point yet of being able to credibly threaten their families. Facing the choice of being the butt boy of some big black buck for a couple years, or a reduced sentence at a country club prison, eventually there are going to be people flipping.
Anyway, Andy Ngo has been documenting Antifa violence for some time now, at the cost in the past of a minor brain hemorrhage:
I understand that the DOJ has been observing the riots with drones and may be using facial recognition on videos of the rioters. The individuals in black with face masks have been seen organizing and inciting, like the video of the individual in Minneapolis who carried an umbrella, like tour guides do in Europe as he walked along store fronts breaking windows with a rod. The looting followed. I have seen a few complaints coming from Democrats about using the drones. There was also video during the Kavanaugh hearings of a guy paying demonstrators to go into the hearing room, raise a ruckus and get thrown out. Never heard any followup on that either.
“How would you like to be accused of rape and when you say that's a lie, you're told that it's not even tentatively proven as untrue?“
I would like that just as much as many male college students do.
It’s Antifa, that I can tell you.
Why isn't there more reporting in the NYT about who's responsible for the violence and disorder accompanying the protests?
Because they'd find the evidence contrary to there narrative that it is some white nationalist organization causing the violence, despite lack of a name or identified organizational structure. In the meantime, we can just blame lawyers for the violence. Defund law schools!
I will interpret vague denouncements of WaPo and me as a failure to come up with anything substantive.
That's ok, we feel the same about the Trump/Russia collusion claim.
Antifa-affiliated activists have been engaging in political violence for years. The only question is whether Antifa have been involved in egging on violence in the recent "peaceful" protests. There is some evidence that they are, at least in places like Portland with a longstanding Antifa presence.
Andy Ngo is faithfully recording who gets arrested for rioting, but he generally doesn't trace their social media or other sources that could reveal their affiliations. But that's where the evidence is likely to show up first.
If you recall the Felarca and Clanton cases, it was a huge struggle to get the authorities to charge them in the first place -- in the Clanton case, my recollection is that random people on the internet basically had to piece together footage to figure out who he was in order to put pressure on the authorities to move. Because Antifa thrives in far-left enclaves where the authorities are already sympathetic to them. The evidence that comes out now is likely to be similar -- people looking at tattoos and other identifying information of protesters caught on videotape engaging in criminal activity, tracing their identity (sometimes incorrectly), and looking up their social media to see whether they're Antifa sympathisers or not. Prosecutions will probably come much later, if at all. There were a lot of other masked people caught on video engaging in violence in that round of protests, years ago, who never seem to have been identified or punished at all.
That said, I'd be surprised if the rioting in Minneapolis had much to do with Antifa. I'm sure they exist there too, but the Minneapolis riots looked more like the St. Louis/Ferguson BLM riots in response to the false "hands up don't shoot" narrative (worth remembering that Russia allegedly supported BLM protests through their sockpuppets back then too -- they're opportunistic and will support anything that enhances civil discord in the US).
It's the violent protests on the West Coast, maybe Chicago, maybe NYC/DC, where I would expect to see Antifa at work.
Ann Althouse at 7:19 AM
To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie.
That statement is rather odd.
In your law classes, did you teach that kind of reasoning?
Link it to something or I will discount it as.....
How do we link to hundreds of cell phone videos captured on social media everywhere, but censored by all the MSM? Is it ok to link to Greta Thunberg’s thoughts on the subject? I’m sure somebody wrote an essay for her. Or, maybe we can see what Bill Gates and Dr. Fauci think.
I’ve never seen evidence of Proud Boys or Boogaloo. I’ve been to riots. I’ve seen antifa thugs break shit and beat people. The self ID on Twitter. Unlike these elusive “white supremacists” we hear about but only weird old David Duke “self identifies” as one. Black supremacists get to sit at the Democratic Power Tables, like Farrakhan and Sharpton. Or get MSM gigs despite their incitement to riot and murder. Ever see a self-ID white supremacist get a CNN or MSNBC gig? Ya me neither.
The professor and the “fact-checkers” pretend ANTIFA has to be and out of control fully structured entity like the University of Wisconsin Administration. There’s no initiation ceremony, but there is a uniform. There are leaders, and the message is go out and attack. Cause chaos. It’s not much different than how ISIS got “lone wolves” around the world to act out on their ideology. Now ANTIFA / BLM / CHAZ / and the Democrats are becoming indistinguishable. Of course propaganda efforts have to be made to deny any connection. CHAZ or CHOP will descend into chaos. Democrats will be associated with all of it. But it really doesn’t matter. The woke will make any justification to believe their opposition to DJT is still the high ground.
Dear Ms. Althouse,
Are you familiar with the term "Philadelphia Lawyer"?
I expect Andrew Barr will release some data to show that you have again been lied to and fooled by the democrat propaganda outlets. Much like you have for the last 4 years. Andrew Barr is starting to understand that the democrat propaganda outlets are a huge part of the problem.
here's an example where looters were specifically identified as having Antifa affiliations, but the whole article is an exercise in semantics, pointing out that Antifa is loosely organised, there's no formal membership so how can you really say they're Antifa, a lawyer crying how dare you smear my client as Antifa? That sort of thing.
So if WAPO or NYT says it, it must be true. Got it. What a joke.
Re: Unknown:
Andrew Barr? Or Bill Barr?
The Bezos WaPo provides a handy guide to the meanings of the various designations they use, including “Four Pinnochios.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/07/about-fact-checker/ “Four Pinnochios” doesn’t say anything about statements for which the speaker has not provided public proof. It is defined simply as “A Whopper.” A better fit for “no published proof” would be “Verdict Pending”: “There are occasions when it is impossible to render a snap judgment because the issue is very complex or there are good arguments on both sides. In this case, we will withhold our judgment until we can gather more facts. We will use this website to shed as much light as possible on factual controversies that are not easily resolved.”
People like Presidents and Senators who get security briefings know all sorts of things that the rest of us don’t know. They can be correct about such things without being “lucky.” It’s a problem in a democratic society that the People sometimes have less information than their leaders, but the solution is not (for either side) to simply proclaim that the leaders are lying unless they publish their proof right now. “Not proven” does not equal “false.”
I may have missed a few things due to a brief hospital stay, but the only Boogaloo Boy I've heard of being arrested was a bodybuilder arrested for selling steroids. His connection to the Boys consisted of a few sympathetic Facebook posts. His arrest was not connected in any way to the riots or terrorism. He wasn't even seen wearing a Hawaiian shirt.
I don't know about the other three.
Alien from Outer Space: “Take us to your leader”
ANTIFA Guy about to get probed: “We don’t have a leader, we’re anarchists”
Yvonne Felarca, the Berkeley school teacher arrested for violence is a self identified antifa leader, yet the wapo claims no example of one committing violence. Perhaps she no longer self identifies as antifa. She was widely reported in many papers as being antifa where are their pinoccios?
An antifa by any other name would be so violent.
Maybe you should look into some REAL Journalists.....that actually investigate, rather than spout Progressive talking points.....https://saraacarter.com/project-veritas-infiltrates-antifa-says-outside-funding-could-be-involved/
NJ Dept of Homeland Security declared Antifa a terrorist organization in 2017.
Setting aside what WaPo, NYT, and Althouse are saying; the message by the latest actions is that the violence isn't working. Polls show 80% want the violence to stop. Yet, who was it that was offering to post bail for those arrested during the protests before any violence or arrests occurred?
Rolling Stones
Axios
HuffPo
Why offer to cover legal fees of protestors if the protests are peaceful? Seems like they were anticipating something without evidence of it occurring.
Did anyone offer to cover the legal fees for those that protested in Virginia to protect the 2nd Amendment? We were told it would be violent, yet no legal fees and only 1 arrest.
the misinformation created by his continued insistence of antifa’s involvement has led to more chaos and violence
There has not been a single confirmed case of an act of violence resulting from a statement by Trump about antifa's involvement. By their own standards, the Wapo is lying.
Why isn't there more reporting in the NYT about who's responsible for the violence and disorder accompanying the protests?
Some readers draw inferences from noticeable omissions in a news publication’s coverage of newsworthy events.
How many nonexistent organizations get a shout out from Keith X Ellison, who selfied with the antifa handbook? Not many! Who gets $ from publishing the antifa handbook Keith is pimping?
For many years, J. Edgar Hoover said there was no Mafia.
Mike, would you believe there are still people who claim - without proof! - that Alphonse Capone was involved in organized crime, despite the undeniable fact that his business card said "used furniture dealer"?
Speaking of lots of commentary about something for which there is no evidence:
“Newly released documents reveal the FBI never had even preliminary evidence of a Trump campaign conspiracy with Russia, and instead used a rarely enforced statutory relic – the Foreign Agents Registration Act – as the legal rationale for opening investigations in 2016-2017 and surveilling Trump campaign aides.“*
Is there more evidence antifa exists and foments street violence or that Trump colluded with Russia?
* https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/381931/
Take a listen....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD3GjkikUyw&feature=youtu.be
There is NO evidence, I tell you. And as long as I am in charge, there never will be any evidence!
Great Caesar’s ghost! Get back to work, Lois, and give me a thousand words on the latest neurosis of that friend of yours in Brooklyn.
Ann Althouse at 7:16 AM
To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie.
Can a person be convicted for perjury if he does not provide evidence for an assertion?
aljazeera (yes, them) has a pretty good round-up of them.
I am Laslo.
these elusive “white supremacists”
The diversitists self-identify, are replaced by leftists, then are reassigned to a less controversial role until the press manages to smooth their disruptive reputations or share/shift responsibility. The 1%ers are funding their activity in the mainstream (e.g. diversity racket) and on the streets (e.g. prosecutorial discretion, judicial temperance).
Ann said:
"To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie."
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If I were to say "there is no intelligent life beyond earth, we are alone in the universe," I would be making a statement that I couldn't prove, but that statement wouldn't necessarily be false. It might be false if the universe were actually teeming with intelligent life but we just haven't seen it yet. Or it might be true that the universe is indeed devoid of intelligent life, but no amount of radio static from the great beyond could ever "prove" my theory, even though it is more consistent the available evidence than any competing theory.
Having said that, I do think there evidence that Antifa exists and that it has participated in the recent disturbances, at least to some extent. Arguing to the contrary sounds like those people who insisted that Al Qaida didn't exist because its members didn't carry IDs.
If you were not recently in Wuhan, or in close contact with someone who was recently in Wuhan, then you cannot be infected with SARS-CoV-2. Similarly, if the arrest record does not mention antifa, then the arrestee cannot be associated with the antifa movement. Case closed.
The press is well known for their selective curiosity and intentional ignorance, particularly regarding matters that might damage the progressive narrative.
My question is the same as elkh 1. If it isn't Antifa coming the violence, it's BLM. It happened in Ferguson, in Baltimore, and burned down a police precinct in Minneapolis. They looted and burned Chicago.
So it's BLM? By the way, has anyone arrested "self Identified" as being with BLM?
Sometimes it seems like Althouse gets hip to the fact that most media, including her go-tos and standbys, are engaged in information warfare. And then sometimes it seems like she's not. Cruel neutrality nose on, cruel neutrality nose off.
For anyone doubting the connection between Black Lives Matter and the Democrat party,go to the official blm website. Then try to donate.
All donations go through Actblue. This is the organization that gets the money when you donate to a den politician. It doesn't go to the politician, it goes to the party.
I've not been able to find out where contributions to blm go but I'll bet it's very little to blm.
John Henry
I think about the groups on the left like Acorn, that was run out of the same shop as so many other left groups. They were all part of the same octopus. Occupy, BLM, Antifa, anti globalism groups....they all seem about the same to me. Has anyone delved into who does all this world wide organizing?
Were any BLM people arrested during the recent riots?
OH! Last spring we had the Extinction Rebellion blocking traffic and gluing their hands to mass transit. Are those people all home now, or are they out with the BLM protests?
Who are these people of the left who have so much time to protest and disrupt and are always available for the latest causes?
This is a psychological operation, the denial that the shock troops of antiracism who are on our TVs burning stuff, looting stores and even taking over a chunk of Seattle. The shock troops of antiracism go by many names, and the professional or semi-pro protestors may go by antifa when convenient for them, and not antifa if that works better. Not antifa is useful now, so not antifa it is, says a chorus of respectable media, inventing a standard of evidence for such a claim that means we have to wait until card-carrying members of an organization that doesn't have membership cards to turn up.
Antifa is a well funded, well organized international terrorist organization, using violence and agitation to destroy capitalism and usher in communism in the west.
This is a fact.
How would you like to be accused of rape and when you say that's a lie, you're told that it's not even tentatively proven as untrue?
Brett Kavanaugh would like a word.
How could antifa be behind the violence? There are no antifa membership cards, no membership lists, no incorporation documentation. They are not a for profit company or a 501(c)3, they don't have a mailing address; therefore, obviously, there is no such thing as antifa. Six hundred Pinocchios to anyone who says otherwise!
Don't be fooled by the thousands of YouTube videos showing people proudly proclaiming to be antifa members creating chaos on our streets. They're not antifa, they're the boogaloo boys, which definitely exists and is responsible for mayhem, and the right is to blame. Because reasons.
Except that it isn’t irrelevant. Someone is providing the busses to bus in AntiFA terrorists across state lines. Someone is funding much of this. Someone is coordinating much of this. Someone provided training over the last year.
@Bruce Hayden, right you are! The problem at this junction is that no one really trusts the FBI to investigate this nor would anyone trust the DOJ to prosecute.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."
Isn't it cute, that NPR accuses people that get their cars surrounded by angry rioters, are RAMMING ATTACKS with the FAR RIGHT??? No proof of that, where are the fact checkers??? But they put it out there as gospel.. WHY are we funding these liars??? https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2020/06/22/journalism-is-dead-part-9999-receipt-filled-thread-details-what-really-happened-in-louisville-with-driver-who-allegedly-struck-protester/
I have read that these antifa people have gotten much more sophisticated in their training and are far more secretive about their operations. The media - true to form - will not see what they don’t want to see.
If you think the evidence is out there, don't just assert it. Link to something.
I will interpret vague denouncements of WaPo and me as a failure to come up with anything substantive.
Is anyone else here disturbed by the intellectual goofiness of Ann trying to pull off the tired old link or it didn't happen meme?
I am wondering if the WaPo is willing to state that there is not evidence that Trump colluded with Russia to win the 2016 election.
Advocacy journalism is interesting in what it chooses to cover.
@Althouse,
I am left to wonder if you believe that CBF was lying because you stated that "To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie."
To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie.
Or it is simply an assertion, a supposition, or a theory. A lie is to assert something is true when you know it isn't true.
Late to the party, as usual. Living ion the west coast means I don't get to join the conversation until the die has been cast.
Still...
There is a difference between asserting as fact something you know is not true, and asserting as fact something you think is true. Isn't Kessler doing the same thing? He is asserting as fact only something he thinks is true. He cannot know that antifa is not involved. He does not know what Trump and Cotton might. He can only say that there is no known evidence, but he cannot say that there is no evidence. It is possible that the feds have details that are not shared due to the ongoing invesitgation. So his 4 Pinocchios is misplaced (and quite inconsistent, as has been demonstrated in the past.) This rates at best 1 or 2, though most likely he should say the jury is out since it is too early to know.
To take a different tack on this matter, how trustworthy are the "fact check" services provided by newspapers? From past experience, they are, at best, hit and miss, and, at worst, typical partisan op-eds with a fake veneer of objectivity. We have seen statements that are literally 100% true with no ifs, ands, or buts, but the fact checkers go out of their way to find some barely related or unrelated tangent to declare the statement misleading, or, in more egregious examples, they "fact check" a statement that no one actually said. We have also seen them declare false statements as true, the defenses of some which have veered into the fringes of insane troll logic. These have been called out by a myriad of honest commentators on multiple occasions for years.
Why are you declaring the Washington Post's "Fact Checkers" to be a reliable source? Why should I trust them? Are they somehow different?
OK, Althouse. Who do you think is rioting and looting? Do you think it is different people at each different kind of event? Do you think there is just some huge number of individuals who will each get motivated to riot and loot, each for a different cause?
Or do you think there is some pool of people who will go to the Trump rally in Chicago in 2016 and also the Ferguson protests and then also the Baltimore riots and then also Minneapolis?
Do you think different people closed the streets in California for Occupy, and then for the anti-tuition raising protests, and now for this? Or do you think they are about the same people?
Personally, I see the way the media treats all of them- Antifa (just this D-Day Mara Liasson was still comparing them to D-day soldiers), Extinction Revolution (and Greta!), Occupy, BLM...they aren't going to dig into the dark side of them. They love them! How can I trust what they say about them when they won't even start with Antifa not being heroic?
What's your theory? You don't have to have a link. I won't call you a liar if you don't have evidence for your idea. We all see what is going on, and we are just trying to explain it.
rehajm, yes, I am disturbed by this. Link or it didn't happen. Okay, you mean by all of us who despite living our lives and performing our regular jobs should do the work of real reporters and get the background on who is Antifa?
She can't be serious. Who then, is doing all of the destroying? This has been asked further up the thread, but as usual, when confronted by a hard question, she refuses to answer and either hides behind some law school word gymnastics, or makes a snide comment about "prove it" or we'll all know you're lying.
Great blog, but this stuff is annoying.
“ I will interpret vague denouncements of WaPo and me as a failure to come up with anything substantive.”
How are we to interpret your failure to provide a definition of antifa? You ask for evidence, I ask for a standard for what counts. I do not think demanding self identification will do the trick. What counts?
"WaPo a failure to come up with anything substantive."-Ann
My imitation of pressitute reporting, am I doing it right?
".....WaPo and me as a failure to come up with anything substantive."
BTW is this a challenge?
You believed WAPO and NYT when they lied to you for 4 years about the Russian hoax without any real proof. Just a disproved Dossier, and illegal FISAs. And you probably STILL believe them...which tells me, that it doesn't matter what we link to, you will find fault with it because WAPO and NYT haven't said it.
"We should care about the truth for the sake of truth and care about it all along. There's so little of that these days."
It's so sad!
Anyway, evidence, like anything else, is a tool.
Progs haven't quite overcome the dilemma: if the riots are a righteous extension of the protests, sticking it to The Man, then they should have no problem with giving Antifa credit; but if the riots, at least for the time being, discredit the protests and hurt the cause, then any Antifa role should be denied. It seems they are trying to have it both ways: the riots are righteous, so any non-racist person will applaud, but no one in particular is responsible for violence, so who are you to blame anyone for mad destruction "without evidence"?
There has not been a single confirmed case in which someone who self-identifies as antifa led violent acts at any of the protests across the country.
This is one of the more meaningless assertions recently published by the Nooyawk Times, and the fact that Althouse can't see through the obvious bullshit makes me wonder if creeping dementia is at work.
A well-advised person would never volunteer such information to the authorities after being arrested or detained. NEVER TALK TO THE COPS is sound legal advice, ergo the dearth of self-indentifiers is to be expected. As for admitting to leading acts of violence, that's evidence for a conspiracy charge over and above the violent act itself. If you throw a brick through a window, that's injury to real or personal property, a misdemeanor in most jurisdictions. If I incite you to throw a brick through a window, that could be a felony.
"To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie."
Well, that would turn many great scientists into liars.
Discover the Networks.
Instead of blaming Antifa, let's blame moderate Democrats.
Good info found here: https://www.discoverthenetworks.org/organizations/antifa/
Can anyone find a link proving a member of BLM was arrested during the recent riots?
"The standard seems to be, 100% benefit of the doubt is given to Antifa, and absolutely zero benefit of the doubt is given to a Republican President or Senator."
Or to supporters of Trump. The WaPo gave zero benefit of the doubt to a pro-life high school kid with a Trump hat on.
Who are these people of the left who have so much time to protest and disrupt and are always available for the latest causes?
My cousin N is one of them. She was a Madison WI social worker, but retired on psychiatric disability about 35 years ago. Her younger (life long Democrat) brother supported her until recently in purchasing a condo for her. She is involved in every Madison protest and used to hector extended family members about every leftwing cause. My favorite was that fracking was causing Madison to sink.
N is part of a vast leftwing cult that has an increasing influence over our lives. It is becoming blatantly obvious in eduction and journalism.
Maybe they use dark Tik Tok
Oh, and IMAO this post needs an “Althouse is pedantic” tag.
Heh. There's value in Ann exposing the trickery of the WaPo 'Fact Checker' but it would be more constructive if she were less obtuse. Nuance is dangerous on the internet.
Baloney. You could see them on Twitter during the riots, talking about what they were doing. If a journalist wanted to actually pay attention, that is. Which they don't.
Why isn't there more reporting in the NYT about who's responsible for the violence and disorder accompanying the protests?
You've answered your own question just by asking it. If it was right-wingers causing the violence we'd know because it would've been widely reported. It's not being reported therefore.... Do you see yet?
You really do still expect to get honest reporting from our DNC media, don't you?
How would you like to be accused of rape and when you say that's a lie, you're told that it's not even tentatively proven as untrue?
OK, I'll take that bait.
Yes, that would indeed be horrible. I just don't understand how any thinking person could vote for a political party that, at the highest levels, would promote such a distortion of justice.
Key words. Self identify
Clever
What a lie. What a staggering lie.
Josephbleau said...
The authors argue that there is no antifa, but if even if their were they were peaceful, all the violence was done by white supremacists. With this incisive evidence based reporting I now wonder who did the looting and car burning? And who cares what their real “secret” name is if not antifa.
I thought white supremacists were dumb hicks with 80 iqs. They must actually be criminal geniuses, because blue cities would love to arrest them in mass to shed blame from their supporters. This is an unserious piece bereft of any intellectual content.
Having been born, grown up, and live a big chunk of my adult life south of the Mason-Dixon line, I have over the years encountered a few authentic Klan types. They are so convinced of the righteousness of their beliefs that there is no way they would try to perform a 'false flag' operation as has been suggested. They would be out and about in full Klan/Neo Nazi gear, waving their flags and making speeches. The whole 'white supremacist' canard is nothing but a self-comfort fantasy for urban leftists to keep the less than committed in line.
Is anyone else here disturbed by the intellectual goofiness of Ann trying to pull off the tired old link or it didn't happen meme?
Especially since we have a media that pretends Antifa doesn't exist and search engines that hide the proof.
I could post 20 links, but it's not worth my time for such a bane exercise.
-Antifa sends members to Middle-East to train with YPG
-Most of the BLM tags you see on buildings and monuments right now in U.S. are done by Antifa.
Don't be a horrible person and speculate based on experience or rely on eyewitness reporting to decide who was causing the violence. If the NY Fucking Times won't report it, then folks we just will never know. Maybe it never happed at all!
@Althouse, did Meg or Elyse check with Andy Ngo? If you’re going to be pedantic then the title of this post should properly be along the lines of “The Post has not made itself aware of any evidence that anyone who self-identifies as antifa ...” The possibility that Trump and Cotton have access to information sources that the Post — not to mention retired law professors — are unaware of does not seem to have registered with Post editors and writers, and people who foolishly and mistakenly rely on Post editors and writers.
And IMAO this post deserves an “Althouse is pedantic” tag.
The first lie they tried to pass off was that it was not happening at all, but we could see it, so now they had to switch to the lie about who is doing it, except we can see that too. People who are inclined to lie due to TDS or other afflictions will now run with this (Inga) for a while until that too gets swatted down by the obvious truth. I'm still waiting for what it is these people have ever been right about, or honest about, for the last 4 years.
And the horrible predicted disaster of opening up the country just gave us a new record low number of deaths again yesterday - 267 for the entire nation. Yep, they nailed that one too. They are so dishonest they have never stopped with the daily doomsday bullshit even as the numbers continued to drop. If we did have a huge disaster from opening up, they wouldn't need to change a word of their coverage.
Iman said...
I have read that these antifa people have gotten much more sophisticated in their training and are far more secretive about their operations. The media - true to form - will not see what they don’t want to see.
Really? I think their tactics suck and are geared towards rumbling with the cops. They don't appear to have taken into account that there may come a day when the ROE for the police may change.
Ann believes that Nazis come with labels. She thinks that as long as someone doesn't they say that they are a Nazi, as long as they don't have "Nazi" stamped on their forehead, then you can't claim that they are.
I believe you can identify a Nazi by the ideas that express. And often by what they do.
The left are everywhere. They are constantly expressing ideas that identify them as left-wing. And when they act out their violent, left-wing fantasies, well that is the left being the left. That is the left doing what it has been saying all along.
It's always conceivable that some of them might be fake. But all of them?
Thousands and thousands of Antifa doing ugly left-wing things? You think they are all fake?
And without evidence by the way. Is there evidence of a single person posing as Antifa with the purpose of defaming Antifa? I haven't heard of it.
Now of course violence attracts violent people. That is to be expected.
Anyway, beyond the violent acts, look at who approves of the violent acts. It is the left-wing. It is the media. It is academia. If they were opposed to these acts, they would be denouncing them. They would be trying to expose and prosecute the people involved. But they, by and large, and at many levels, are doing the opposite.
Look around you. How can you be so blind?
So it’s Trump’s fault that the New York Times and Washington Post have failed to perform their most basic job: To be curious about the world and what’s happening in it.
Trump ruins everything, especially his enemies.
"So if WAPO or NYT says it, it must be true. Got it. What a joke.”
It’s even worse, it’s if WaPo or NYT don’t see fit to print it, it’s got to be false.
I'm shocked that nobody arrested is self-identifying as part of a criminal organization. That's usually the first thing they tell you.
"Yea, I'm with Mafia. Maybe youse heard of us."
Oh! How can I forget all the organized protesters that have to be rounded up before the political conventions. The buckets of urine and feces?
Are these all separate people or the same people doing things over and over for various causes? Is the WaPo vaguely interested? If no, I think we have an answer why, right?
The group under discussion here, should at all times be referred to as so-called antifa.
Individuals should be held account for their own actions (including conspiracy to commit crimes).
Is there any chance of a Rico action against the so-called antifa?
Are the media reporting on who is being arrested? Or are they just saying that Trump and Cotton are lying? Is it at all possible that the president could have intelligence that the media either does not have or does not wish to share?
The marxists in the videos must just be dressing like that, acting like that, talking like that as a LARP.
Walter Duranty smiles.......
If Antifa existed, that would make willing dupes like Althouse feel bad, so therefor Antifa must not exist.
WaPoop makes a practice of avoiding reporting facts that don’t fit WaPoop’s preferred narrative. So, why hasn’t anyone penetrated Antifa? Come on reporters. Get off your butts and gather some facts. Who is leading the rioting? Is there a difference between self-identified antifa and violent leftists? Is there a plan? I can see why far left elements want to portray this as spontaneous. So why don’t WaPoop and NYT do some actual investigations? I think it is because they won’t like the answers.
Read about the revolutionaries in the French Revolution and the long process of the Bolsheviks ending up on top in Russia. Revolutionaries went underground, they assumed names, they practiced agitation and propaganda, they were very selective about where they left their fingerprints. And the people most to blame for the ultimate takeover by the reds were the liberals, whose fecklessness allowed the agitprop to do its work.
Read Althouse. Come for the questions. Stay for the fecklessness.
We are playing with fire here.
To assert that something is true when there is no evidence of it is to lie.
That's a bit extreme. Is faith ok, or are religious people a horrible bunch of liars?
“We should care about the truth for the sake of truth and care about it all along. There's so little of that these days.”
And with truth comes the realization that all of societies ill’s can’t be blamed on the Left. The almost complete denial that there are any right wing entities that are calling for the destruction of the government and the country isn’t reality.
How would you like to be accused of rape and when you say that's a lie, you're told that it's not even tentatively proven as untrue?
How sad is it that Althouse has more respect for the feelings and reputation of violent street thugs than she does for a Judge (now Justice) with a record of mentoring women?
Nice. You people have moved on from Tulsa Turnoutgate
Well, my third reaction is to laugh. This is the human condition. If you don't want to see something, no evidence can persuade you!
It's just that simple.
Oh, and of course we can thank Google for erasing the evidence. They have been such busy airbrushing little beavers.
I formed my impression of Antifa years ago from Tim Pool's videos of the various protests that he filmed. I believe in individuals much more than I do institutions and I was impressed by Tim Pool's honesty. Especially as compared to the media. Sometimes Pool would film the media covering these protests and the contrast between what actually happened and what appeared later on the news, and especially what the media chose not to report on, was often staggering.
Typically he would have a very long stream, sometimes many hours, which would include encounters with all sorts of different people. And through this vicarious experience, after a while you get kind of good at identifying who is who. Many people, after just 30 seconds of them talking, you pretty much know whether they are left-wing.
And I'm using the phrase Antifa loosely. The real organization deliberately hides itself. They have a cellular structure where members don't know anyone beyond their own small group. Their members are told to hide that they are Antifa and to pretend to be something else.
I assume that the actual majority of the left-wing protestors, including most of the violent ones, are not literally members of Antifa. But they are for Antifa. And they say rather similar things and have similar goals.
But I'm not going to go out and find all these examples, because it would take days to re-watch some of that stuff, not to mention all the time it would take to find it. That is assuming that YouTube hasn't deleted it, which given it is Google, I really wonder if they have.
Inga: "And with truth comes the realization that all of societies ill’s can’t be blamed on the Left."
Inga still passionately believes Trump colluded with russia, the hoax dossier is true, Carter Page is a russian spy, and kavanaugh is a gang rape leader.
Inga is the perfect representative for Althouse lefty/LLR-lefty "truth".
And with truth comes the realization that all of societies ill’s can’t be blamed on the Left. The almost complete denial that there are any right wing entities that are calling for the destruction of the government and the country isn’t reality.
Of course there are right wing entities calling for destruction of the government!
But here we are in the current moment and we must ask:
Are black people so stupid that they would follow white supremacists into protests and riots in their own cities?
I am reminded of Lazlo's long comment from yesterday.
mandrewa: "What a lie. What a staggering lie."
The left has been vomiting up staggering lies for over a hundred years.
"The almost complete denial that there are any right wing entities that are calling for the destruction of the government and the country isn’t reality."
Because rhetoric is exactly the same as wanton destruction of property and the mad Taliban-like frenzy of erasing history in mob actions against monuments and art as well as the frenetic effort to ruin the livelihoods of people by digging into their opinions from years ago and declaring them heretical.
You really are an insufferably stupid human being.
Here you go Ann. You can choose to not believe it because it isn't those all important Newspapers of lies an hate, but there are pictures to boot. No "D Day" Soldiers there....https://alphanewsmn.com/firsthand-account-antifa-attacks-minnesota-trump-supporters/
antifa has penetrated the washington post, and it would seem some level of the security services, as the brits would say.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AntifascistsofReddit/ <-- What I found in a quick Google.
I'm curious how real journalists say "there's no organized antifa" when a simple google of Antifa + Reddit finds this, which includes a stickied link to bail funds for rioters/protesters and coordinated protest monitoring and a front page post of assault (with eggs, but still): https://www.reddit.com/r/AntifascistsofReddit/comments/hcs1wq/egging_an_egghead_it_took_us_20_minutes_to_make/
So, yeah. Excuse me if I dismiss WaPo because they couldn't find this, which states: "Welcome to the sub! This is a direct action sub, meaning we actively seek to achieve our goals using Reddit. This is not a sound board to debate antifa, this is a place to disseminate information and help organize outliers. Trolls, concern trolls and those of similar intent will be swiftly banned. This is enforced solely to prevent undermining the intention of this sub. If you believe you have been banned unfairly, you can appeal.
Antifascism, shortened to Antifa, is opposition to fascist ideologies and similar entities and policies. Antifascism began in Italy in the 1920s in opposition to the rise of Benito Mussolini, and quickly spread across Europe and then the world. For those that have difficulty in identifying what fascism is, please refer to Mussolini's own book on The Doctrine of Fascism. There are also tenets of fascism, which are loosely outlined here if you dont want to read the book.
Lately, in reaction to the rise of nationalism around the globe, Antifa has made a resurgence. Anyone other than fascists and apologists are welcome here, but please read the rules"
Their sidebar includes: https://itsgoingdown.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/howtoantifa-revised.pdf
https://antifascistnetwork.org/2015/06/07/resources-for-anti-fascist-action/
And: https://www.reddit.com/r/AntifascistsofReddit/comments/7yhhhm/important_copypasta_for_protesters/ which includes such gems as: "If you are carrying a sign, make the handle out of stout wood or metal pipe that you can use to defend yourself if it becomes important to do so." and "Assume a protest will become violent."
WaPo didn't do the basic due dilligence.
I also know it is from a year ago, but it show Antifa in Minneapolis, and they look an awful lot like the ones who were there a few weeks ago...same people same tactics same hate and same violence. You can bury your head all you want, but they were there, even if the media refuses to report on it....
Amadeus 48 said...
WaPoop makes a practice of avoiding reporting facts that don’t fit WaPoop’s preferred narrative. So, why hasn’t anyone penetrated Antifa? Come on reporters.
Project Veritas has, and they reported on it (I posted above)...Of course the MSM try to call them out as Right Wing hate, like they do with anybody who doesn't tow the Progressive line.....https://www.projectveritas.com/
I'm not seeing any links to something substantive that I requested. Am I missing something?
Lots of writing here, but the core question I've asked is unanswered. Unless what I'm looking for is hidden in all of this somewhere. Point it out if so.
Good news!
The 102 people shot in the Lefty People's Paradise of Chicago over Fathers Day weekend, with 12 being minors and 14 dead overall, NEVER HAPPENED AT ALL!!
Because that would reflect badly on the lefties.
BTW, did you know that there were no "refusniks" in the Soviet Union because everyone was so happy to live there? I mean, sure there some "crazies" who were "admitted" to asylums because they had weird decadent ideas about "freedom" or something and the state needed to give them some "treatment", but they don't count......
“If you have better material than Turley's June 2d musings, you'd better link to them now. I will interpret vague denouncements of WaPo and me as a failure to come up with anything substantive.”
I’ve been commenting for weeks now on these right wing entities that have been getting arrested on charges of rioting, arson, murder etc. no one here wants to even admit these people exist, despite the evidence. Steven Carillo, The guy who ambushed and murdered deputies and murdered a federal security guard during the protests and the three who plotted to firebomb the power station in Nevada, the guy who set fire to the Nashville courthouse are three examples of these right wing extremists.
Intel report warns that far-right extremists may target Washington, D.C. The district is "likely an attractive target" for the boogaloo movement and other groups, the intelligence assessment warns.
“A senior DHS official forwarded the assessment to security stakeholders on Friday, noting that “while it identifies Washington D.C. as an attractive target, the boogaloo ideology is not restricted to a specific region and those who wish to cause division are routinely using peaceful protests as means of cover. Heading into a weekend of more planned protests, we believe this information to be useful to all of our membership.”
Separately on Friday, DHS published its own intelligence note assessing that “domestic terrorists advocating for the boogaloo very likely will take advantage of any regional or national situation involving heightened fear and tensions to promote their violent extremist ideology and call supporters to action.”
The note, dated June 19 and obtained by POLITICO, said it “provides information regarding some domestic terrorists’ exploitation of heightened tensions during recent First Amendment-protected activities in order to threaten or incite violence to start the ‘boogaloo’ — a colloquial term referring to a coming civil war or the fall of civilization.”“
So, I guess Keith Ellison & his son are both delusional? That they "support" something that doesn't exist?
And this is only the third time I've posted this link to RedNeck Revolt. And here's another, founded by the way in Minneapolis.
What's the point here? That these guys haven't committed violence or that they don't exist? Look at the second web site for the Torch Network. They boast of threatening a guy in Austin. The moderate Left has been delusional on this for long time. Robert Reich thought that the antifa rioters who shut down Milo Yiannopolis at U-Berkeley were right wing plants. Right wing plants? In Berkeley?!
I'm sorry, but I worked at the New Executive Office Building, right on Lafayette Square, in downtown DC from 1983 to 1991. ALL the Left-wing demos had factions that marched under some form of the hammer & sickle. Did that ever show up on the news? No. One Nazi at a right wing demo & he's on the news.
All the old hard lefty groups have not gone away, and the election of Trump infused new passion into their ranks. The history of the hard left has always been full of shadowy groups that fade in & fade out. These groups exist if for no other reason than the Left has an inherent tendency to schism at the drop of a hat, but they were also useful to hide the true nature of command & control (e.g. all the sister groups that were fronts for the CPUSA). That's what going on here with Antifa, which follows the same historical pattern as other left-wing groups.
As to the specific, "no one arrested said they were with antifa," that may be true. Lots of people in organized crime don't admit to it. I'm however not inclined to believe "there is no such thing as antifa," *when I can go to their Reddit and read how to prepare to participate in a violent riot and get away with it.*
The entire msm press corps gave themselves awards for 3 years worth of "indepth" "reporting" on the russian collusion that never happened.
https://www.newsweek.com/antifa-george-floyd-protests-minneapolis-1509219 <-- Newsweek acknowledges a few people are left leaning, but doesn't bother to tell us what that means.
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