Here's something I wrote in October 2013, "Scott Walker gives up fighting for the permit requirement for protests in the Capitol":
Under pressure from an ACLU lawsuit.As for this week's protest — the organizers of the protest seem mostly concerned about getting access to the Capitol so they can use the bathrooms or at getting an outdoor permit so that
Under the new rules, groups must notify the DOA of a gathering of 12 or more people two business days before the event takes place. The notification may be sent by phone, email, in person or by a state form, according to the statement. There is no limit on the number of notifications groups and individuals can submit.That's a good resolution of the problem. There's a long tradition of spontaneous protests in the Wisconsin Capitol building, and the permit requirement interfered with it. Yeah, sometimes the protests get way out of hand, and the building does require security that varies when a lot of people show up at once, but focus on those real issues. Don't have a policy that's designed — or seems to be designed — to suppress spontaneity.
portable bathroom companies will work with them. But the Capitol building is closed and won't be opened and, as for the outdoors, the Department of Administration (DOA) says the planned protest "poses a hazard to the safety of the public." So the permit was denied.
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365 comments:
1 – 200 of 365 Newer› Newest»The original goal, as I recollect, was to "flatten the curve", so we did not overwhelm the medical system. Here in Oregon, Coos Bay hospital just furloughed 71 people. I'd say the curve is flat enough.
organizers say it’ll happen anyway
This underscores a larger point about the current state of affairs: It's not Trump or the Govenors or the Hobbit of Health or the Empress of Scarves who will ultimately decide when this lockdown ends.
Yep. That was the original goal. Now the goal appears to be destroy whatever is left.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Why did they stick that "peaceably in there? It's like the crap about a "well-regulated militia" in the Second. It just gets in the way.
First Amendment rights are not "really pretty cool". They're rights. What a repulsive, un-American thing to say. Lives are not more important than rights. Many Americans have died to protect those rights. He is clearly unfit for his job as an American governor if that's his view of our rights.
I agree. The First Amendment is "pretty cool."
This is the man that was in charge of our public education system for a decade. This is a very important reminder that if you want your children to learn about the Constitution, you must teach them yourself.
“First Amendment rights are really pretty cool”
What is Evers' IQ?
"the organizers of the protest seem mostly concerned about getting access to the Capitol so they can use the bathrooms ..> But the Capitol building is closed ..."
The solution seems obvious.
Well, that’s better than the view of my governor, Governor Murphy of NJ, who told Tucker Carlson that the First Amendment was above his pay grade! If that’s what Governor Murphy believes, he should resign!
"Sure, the first amendment's cool and all (and who doesn't like what's cool, amirite?), but sometimes it's not about being cool. People need to remember that."
What is Evers' IQ?
I find it hard to figger out whether any given politician is stupid, crazy or sleazy. Not an XOR.
Stop waving the bloody shirt, Evers. It’s lazy arguing and dishonest. No one is going to die as a result of the protests and it’s contemptible to use that obvious lie to silence opposition.
You can't take away my rights, you can just violate them.
Until you hit critical mass.
-XC
If the problem porta-potties then perhaps the protestors should perhaps consider digging field latrines right on Tony's front lawn?
Does the First Amendment include the right to piss in public?
With the building closed and restaurants closed, there aren't a lot of bathrooms in the area. I doubt the banks [some of the other places still open] will love seeing people open carrying into their bathrooms.
Maybe Walgreens will let people in? The whole `lets protest at the closed Capitol and gather everyone in a crowd to hear the speakers' probably should have thought about bathrooms before booking the speakers and arranging for professional sound equipment.
Wisconsin's best and brightest ... not. Actually, a bunch of organizers are from out of state - something that drove people on this blog apoplectic during the Act 10 protests. Guess it's ok this time, due to the shoe being on the other foot.
The plebes don't seem to know their proper places.
This is all a test run for seeing how seriously people take the Constitution and how willing they are to forfeit their rights. AND how quickly they will agree to forfeiting other people's rights for them.
The idea of many Governors / politicians / etc is to drag this out long enough for panic to somewhat subside, while gently introducing various aspects of 'New Green deal-esque' items to be added into re-opening terms while we're still malleable by fear.
Reichstag Virus.
I am Laslo.
"The solution seems obvious."
It's a shame that Walker put so many powers into the DoA, but he did. After what happened those years with arrests of singers and endless permit/access rule changes, this is just reaping the crop that Walker sowed.
"Does the First Amendment include the right to piss in public?"
Check with San Francisco.
I thought the capitol building couldn't be closed when the legislature is in session. Isn't that what started the whole occupation of the building during the Act 10 protests, that the Joint Finance Committee was taking public comments into the night so the building couldn't be closed? So why doesn't the legislature go into session so the building has to be open?
"There's a lot of sacrifice we're asking ... in order to save lives."
Remember when Evers told us holding an in-person election was going to lead to a surge of COVID-19 deaths? Even the reliably left Politifact says, "Have confirmed coronavirus cases really surged after the in-person election? No, they haven’t."
The current situation is good news for the Democrats. Voting for Biden because the Party says so takes a certain amount of mindless servility. Polls apparently show that a majority are demonstrating mindless servility by not only submitting to authoritarian rules, but criticizing those who dare to dissent. (However, I maintain that standing at least six feet away from someone pissing outside the state Capitol is sound policy.)
No portapotties? No access to restrooms? Protesters should then do what the homeless of San Francisco do, and make the Wisconsin sidewalks part of their protests by covering them with feces and urine.
Wrangling over whether a specific protest at a specific place and time is acceptable is a long standing tradition in America and something I have no problem with. But the cavalier dismissal of the most fundamental of American rights as something "really cool", a nice luxury that we permit when it's convenient is appalling.
I wonder if they will rethink the protest?
About 28 percent who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11 percent of those getting routine care alone. About 22 percent of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.
https://www.foxnews.com/science/covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-showed-no-benefit-more-deaths-va-virus-study
"I thought the capitol building couldn't be closed when the legislature is in session. "
They limited the number allowed in the building, forced everyone through a single entrance, and required extensive search including metal detector for a period later in the protests [including having a long list of prohibited items].
I am unsure if the Legislature can schedule sessions on short notice unless it is a special session called by the Governor, it would not surprise me if the Gov office or DoA have to sign off on such sessions.
Either way, DoA has the power to make building access a problem if they want it to be.
It seems like a very expensive solution just to have a Trump rally on the Capitol grounds. The Legislature would much rather spend that money on lawyers trying to sue the Governor some more.
Jeff Spicoli : What Jefferson was saying was, Hey! You know, we left this England place 'cause it was bogus; so if we don't get some cool rules ourselves - pronto - we'll just be bogus too! Get it?
Tony Evers: (takes a long bong hit) Uh, what?
The third amendment is really keen, but the sixth amendment is the grooviest.
Got permission to go gun shopping and buy as many bullets as I wanted a few days ago.
Even my wife thinks the government has gone too far this time.
And you know what happened in Hong Kong over the last couple weeks?
Hospitals in Wisconsin are going bankrupt because people aren't scheduling normal procedures. But Evers is only looking at covid health issues. How many people will die because Evers drove the hospitals in Wisconsin into bankruptcy? How many are dying now because operations are being postponed. How many vets is the Wisconsin VA turning away?
And say, Tony, how many times did you see a doctor and visit a hospital in your time of trial, when you had cancer? Come on, Tony, how many times have you been to a doctor or had a doctor visit you, or a nurse; or how many times have you been to the hospital since covid began? Would they turn you, the Governor away, as they are turning vets away? But that's your privileged existence, that's not for the proles, right?
Just shit and piss on the steps.
Can any interpret this for me, though: if Walker couldn't get permits required, and gave up, where did the permit requirement of today come from?
Governor Evers, the First Amendment is pretty cool, you patronizing POS? Then how about doing your best to facilitate peaceful protests rather than doing your damnedest to shut them down?
Screw them. Show up anyway and pee in the bushes if you have to.
They need to be reminded who they are working for.
"The original goal, as I recollect, was to "flatten the curve"..."
Done in 95% of the country, and most places never had their healthcare systems close to challenged, but that fact has no effect on the call for shutdowns, so clearly that was just an excuse. Even us skeptics went along with it, but now that Covid has proven less than the flu most places, we follow the facts, and they say that was a mistake. In Nevada they are forecasting total deaths from Covid to be less than half of from the last bad flu season with everything open.
Governor Evers is a traitor to the founding of the country.
It seems the enemies of freedom are going to keep pushing.
Jupiter @ 10:55: "'the organizers of the protest seem mostly concerned about getting access to the Capitol so they can use the bathrooms ..> But the Capitol building is closed ...'
The solution seems obvious."
You beat me to it. Well done.
The First Amendment is "pretty cool."
It's pretty cool that the First Amendment is there when progressives need it and not there when it inconveniences them.
Hospitals in Wisconsin are going bankrupt because people aren't scheduling normal procedures.
They aren't getting any of the $175 billion in hospital bailout money? That's surprising.
"So the permit was denied."
But the aborted unborn are still being issued their Certificates of Non-Existence.
"About 28 percent who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11 percent of those getting routine care alone. About 22 percent of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival."
Since I believe in science I will wait until the paper is published and I can look at their cohort matching, censoring method, and treatment assignment. The fact that this is gleefully reported and used politically damages my trust in "press release science."
The solution seems obvious.
CNN: "Breaking News! A group of Republican Sex Offenders were arrested today in Wisconsin for peeing on the capitol grounds. We'll ask the President why his supporters are perverts. Stay tuned for the Situation Room!"
"Can any interpret this for me, though: if Walker couldn't get permits required, and gave up, where did the permit requirement of today come from?"
Where did you hear he couldn't enforce any permit requirements? He arrested singers for a while due to permit requirements for groups over 10 or 12.
What the DoA powers were at the beginning of the protests were not where Walker left things.
First Amendment rights are really pretty cool.
Oh boy. Evers certainly didn't do himself any favors using that goofy construction. Framing it as sacrificing one for the other was a pretty stupid argument.
I hesitate to say what I think about the issue given Ann's particular expertise in this area. And I've always found the incorporation of the Bill of Right to the states through the 14th amendment pretty confusing. After all, the first five words of the First Amendment as "Congress shall make no law..." Because the amendments applied to the federal governments and not the states, the states had wide latitude through their police power.
It seems almost a given to me that consider we are under a national emergency declaration and that the states can demonstrate a compelling interest, the stay-at-home rules would likely be supported in a broad sense. However, I imagine that some of the more stringent rules enacted by local officials wouldn't.
If I recall, Act 10 protesters were able to overcome this obstacle by having sympathetic politicians open the Capitol doors for them. Perhaps these folks need to do the same.
Yancey Ward @ 11:33: "Just shit and piss on the steps..."
No, no! That's only in California! And only if you're homeless and deranged.
...Which, frankly, more and more of us will soon be.
"The solution seems obvious."
Bring a tent, sleeping bag and a few needles. That will entitle you to urinate and defecate wherever you please. It has the additional benefit of qualifying you for homeless benefits like food and housing vouchers and free healthcare.
Evers is a weasel.
'No, no! That's only in California!"
Check out the City/County building in Madison. Berkeley on Mendota.
The fact that this is gleefully reported
Gleefully reported by Fox News? Why would they do that?
J. Farmer said...
It seems almost a given to me that consider we are under a national emergency declaration and that the states can demonstrate a compelling interest, the stay-at-home rules would likely be supported in a broad sense. However, I imagine that some of the more stringent rules enacted by local officials wouldn't.
The problem is there is no there there.
The numbers just are not there.
Total deaths didn't break 5 digits until they started counting assumed and presumed cases.
Would they shut down New York City if 10000 people died in Texas?
Arbitrary and capricious; vague.
Every "protest" poses a potential hazard to public safety.
This is unconstitutional; and they know it's unconstitutional. They're going to do it anyway because the courts are effectively closed. Opening courts "poses a hazard to the safety of the public" due to jury boxes being built to a certain width (can't put jurors 6 feet from one another.)
It's far better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission. This protest will proceed. It's not like they can arrest these people and throw them into crowded jails. That would pose a hazard to jail guards.
So, I'm predicting the protest will happen. One can only hope that the protestors use the opportunity of being denied bathrooms to piss all over the Statehouse.
My Body My Choice ONLY Valid to kill babies. Question: Why aren't abortions listed as preventable deaths? They are
21st Century Schizoid Man?
Shutting down Cancer Treatment will kill magnitudes of order more than ChiCom Virus. But ignore the Horowitz report.
Early Detection CLOSED!
"The fact that this is gleefully reported
Gleefully reported by Fox News? Why would they do that?"
The world must be filtered through your political blinders eh?
So, according to this study Lupus patients must stop taking hydroxychloroquine because they face an increased relative risk of over 100% for death!? I wonder why the FDA approved it, I wonder why Doctors prescribe it because obviously they must see their patients die from it, according to this study. The implication is that Trump suggested everyone take poison. This kind of foolish political stuff is so damaging.
The governor reminds me of a quote from John Lehman:
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat.
Aren't First Amendment rights ... essential?
So, according to this study Lupus patients must stop taking hydroxychloroquine because they face an increased relative risk of over 100% for death!?
Um...no. What makes you think that?
The first COVID-19 death found so far died on February 6th in Santa Clara County.
That means this person contracted the disease 14-25 days earlier.
This was widespread in January.
Millions have already been infected.
This has been obvious from the start. The total death rates confirm this.
And she died on February 6th but what day do you think her death was added to? Guaranteed to be some day this week.
At this point people hanging on to this farce are doing damage. Public officials are willfully using fraudulent information.
[Abortion] rights are really pretty cool. There’s a lot of sacrifice we’re asking… in order to save lives. Some people may not get the message and focus on what’s being taken away.
Since every abortion kills a baby, I guess this means it's perfectly reasonable to ditch all "abortion rights", right?
Why is it that all Democrat politicians are such total scum?
How many people will die because Evers drove the hospitals in Wisconsin into bankruptcy? How many are dying now because operations are being postponed. How many vets is the Wisconsin VA turning away?
And say, Tony, how many times did you see a doctor and visit a hospital in your time of trial, when you had cancer? Come on, South Korea says Kim Jong Un in grave danger after heart surgery???
Evers is an embarrassment.
The first amendment is so cool it wears shades....Any chance that there's some porta-potty operator who wants to be the Rosa Parks of portapotty operators and provide this service to the demonstrators.
Here's WI Chinese Coronavirus data from the month of April (take from here: https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/data.htm):
Date Number of New Cases Deaths
4/1 199 8
4/2 180 7
4/3 186 6
4/4 196 19
4/5 155 12
4/6 173 9
4/7 138 15
4/8 178 7
4/9 129 12
4/10 183 17
4/11 145 9
4/12 128 7
4/13 87 10
4/14 127 16
4/15 166 12
4/16 154 15
4/17 170 8
4/18 154 6
4/19 147 9
4/20 153 10
4/21 121 12
At the time the numbers should have been climbing (if the in person voting caused a significant number of infections), they dropped.
Evers is, a best, a liar and a hack
Between the Governors of Wisconsin and New Jersey, you'd think the very discussion of the Constitution makes them uncomfortable. The same kind of uncomfortable one gets when discussing a topic they don't understand. Throw in the Governor of Michigan who seems to view it as an obstacle she can just dismiss, and I'd say that the Republicans need to up their game. A lot.
That they cannot put forth candidates to compete with these people is pathetic.
Also cool are red lights, manhole covers and the Ten Commandments, esp the 5th.
If the study is valid the patients who received the drug were at equal risk to those who did not. "About 28 percent who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11 percent of those getting routine care alone." So the only reported variable was taking the drug. So this study says taking the drug increases the death rate. Umm...yes.
"First Amendment rights are pretty cool. . . ." A George Mason for the Dumbest Generation.
The third amendment is really keen, but the sixth amendment is the grooviest.
The 21st amendment has the best lyrics.
https://www.foxnews.com/science/covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-showed-no-benefit-more-deaths-va-virus-study
This is a truly amazing study, but not in a good way. There were two reasonable ways to approach this:
1: Just give hydroxychloroquine / azithromycin / zinc to everyone, assume we already know the baseline (this is what I would have done)
2: Do an RCT with placebos
Instead they did
3: Give the drugs to some patients, but not others, depending possibly on who sick you think the patients are, with the "more sick" patients getting the hydroxychloroquine.
Main question left after looking at this "study" is "malice, or incompetence?"
If you accept in principle the use of permits then you seem to be locked into accepting they can be denied for cause. Evers will win a court challenge.
Did anyone on this blog stand up for antifa's right to demand the building stay open so they could shit on the floors or write on the walls?
Planned Protests (PP) pose a progressive health risk? Yes. Some modes of PP have a 101% fatality rate. While others are generational and insidious.
Achilles, if it was so widespread much earlier than known, how is it that no one brought it to New York city earlier?
There is a logic problem with your argument.
I also thought you were among those decrying the taking of numbers by attributing causes of death well afterward..
Yet here you hypocritically embrace it.
Josephbleau
It looks like a motivated result doesn’t it, from what little we know. The sickest patients were given the drug.
More Tony! More cool!
"Today legislative Republicans told the 4,600+ people in the state of Wisconsin who have contracted COVID-19 and the families of the 242 people who have died, we don’t care about you -- we care about our political power.
Their lawsuit doesn’t mention saving lives. It doesn’t mention protecting our nurses, doctors, first responders, and critical workers. Instead it's 80 pages of a lawsuit focused entirely on how to get legislative Republicans more power.
Apparently, instead of having us act quickly and decisively to respond to a crisis, Republicans would rather have us jump through hoop after hoop and ask for their permission to save lives. Folks, we don’t have time. COVID-19 will not wait."
Evers responds to legal action against Safer-At-Home order extensione
Trigger warning: picture of a fatty -
"To my eye, it is striking that 74% of Covid-19 patients in intensive care are over-weight, compared with 60% for viral pneumonia patients."
This is very bad, but here is the context: in the UK in 2017/18, 62.0% of adults aged 18 and over were overweight or obese, up from 61.3% the previous year....
(There is a case for saying that setting normal body weight index at 25 is too high. Hong Kong and Singapore use 23 as the cut-off for healthy weight, and when some researchers suggested that for the UK some time ago, it was rejected as being, although medically desirable, too demanding for public acceptance. Realpolitik.)"
++
I wish the table had the BMI distribution for the general population, but it almost seems that skinny people are immune to the WuFlu, though that might be because they're not old enough to be fat. Yet.
We have at least two Marks. This is the good Mark.
Blogger Jupiter said..."The original goal, as I recollect, was to "flatten the curve", so we did not overwhelm the medical system. Here in Oregon, Coos Bay hospital just furloughed 71 people. I'd say the curve is flat enough."
UW Hospital surgeries down 60%. Salaried employees are having their pay cut and hourly workers are having their hours reduced.
Flattening the curve was to prevent hospitals from being inundated. We accomplished that. In spades.
John said...
The fact that this is gleefully reported
Gleefully reported by Fox News? Why would they do that?
Because Fox New management has fallen victim to the Long March?
How much coverage did Fox News give to the rape allegations against Biden, before the NYT decided to cover it? (Hint: none)
Fox is sometimes slightly less dishonest than the rest to the "news" organizations. I guess that's hard to see, when "complete and total dishonesty" is your normal level
Quit whining.
You could be ruled by a governor, a great governor, that has issued edicts such as:
-Statewide burn ban. She needs "first responders to be on the front lines fighting the virus", not putting out grass fires.
-Ordered all flags to half-staff. In memory of those that fell in battle with the virus.
-Impaneled a 22 member coronavirus racism task force.
I ascribe all 'Mark' comments to a single commenter, because I'm tired of having to check his profile.
"If the study is valid."
No study is "valid" if its design hasn't been published and peer-reviewed. And this study has done neither of those two things. Instead, "results" were leaked to the press by confidential informants.
In this particular study, patients were not proscribed the medication until AFTER patients were so far along, they required "oxygen." No definition in the study of what that actually meant, i.e., were these patients intubated and on respirators - study doesn't say.
The study was not, in fact, designed. It was an after-the-fact analysis of normal patient care done in 4 French hospitals. No analysis of co-morbidity was performed (in other words, did these patients reflect normal co-morbidities or were they all suffering from other co-morbidities.)
It's a horrible study, wasn't designed, hasn't been peer reviewed and its analysis being leaked to the press instead of through normal medical channels is indicative of media manipulation.
Study link:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.10.20060699v1.full.pdf
Blogger Ken B said...
If you accept in principle the use of permits then you seem to be locked into accepting they can be denied for cause. Evers will win a court challenge.
Did anyone on this blog stand up for antifa's right to demand the building stay open so they could shit on the floors or write on the walls?
The right to peacefully assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances does not imply the right to assemble to do violence and / or vandalize and destroy.
So, nice try, but no sale
@Achilles:
The numbers just are not there.
I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. We are under a national emergency declaration. And you don't necessarily need huge numbers to justify the state's decision. You could say that the purpose is to prevent the numbers from getting big. Police power has been interpreted quite broadly, and protecting the general welfare from a potential public health crisis would probably be justified.
The first COVID-19 death found so far died on February 6th in Santa Clara County. https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Santa-Clara-county-coronavirus-February-deaths-15217371.php
What sad, crap, reporting
Did any of those individuals visit China? Were they friends with someone who had recently visited China?
How did they get the Chinese Coronavirus / Wuhan Flu / Kung Flu?
Why is the news media in the US such utter crap?
"Instead they did
3: Give the drugs to some patients, but not others, depending possibly on who sick you think the patients are, with the "more sick" patients getting the hydroxychloroquine.
Main question left after looking at this "study" is "malice, or incompetence?""
This is common, so probably incompetence. Give an experimental drug to only the sickest because "how could it make things worse?". That's fine, as far as it goes, but then to conclude that the drug doesn't work is stupid.
Thank you Buckwheathikes for the link to the garbage
"but then to conclude that the drug doesn't work is stupid."
And in fact, the study did not make such a conclusion:
"Our study has several limitations. First, although our aim was to emulate a target trial and we used robust statistical techniques for adjustment, treatment was not randomly assigned and potential unmeasured confounders may bias our results.
"Second, four potentially important prognostic variables could not be balanced in the PS model because none or only one patient in the HCQ group presented with these variables. Accordingly, caution is required in the interpretation of results, especially for overall mortality where only a limited number of events were observed.
"Third, we did not take a centre effect into account in the PS model because the number of patients treated with HCQ in centres was unbalanced (some centres treated all patients with HCQ, while others did not).
"In conclusion, we found that HCQ did not significantly reduce admission to ICU or death at day 7 after hospital admission, or ARDS in hospitalised patients with hypoxemic pneumonia due to COVID-19."
In other words, the study only looked at people who already had hypoxemic pneumonia from the disease and concluded only that the proposed treatment at that late stage didn't reduce ICU admissions or death after 7 days of hospital.
Original Mike:"I ascribe all 'Mark' comments to a single commenter, because I'm tired of having to check his profile."
The "Mark" Ken B is praising is the lefty Mark.
Unexpectedly.
The "Mark" Ken B terms "the bad Mark" is the reasonable conservative law guy from VA.
Based on what I’ve read, people are dying of cancer and heart issues because needed hospital treatments and surgeries are classified as “elective” when in retrospect they were necessary to preserve life. The way I view it, imputing lives saved from COVID-19 have to be weighed against lives lost that could have been — should have been! — saved.
You do not lose your right to assemble and petition especially when the assembly and petition is about the government's violation of the right to assemble.
"And I've always found the incorporation of the Bill of Right to the states through the 14th amendment pretty confusing. After all, the first five words of the First Amendment as "Congress shall make no law..."
The 14th Amendment says: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
States cannot makes laws that violate federal constitutional rights, at least for most of the first 8 amendments.* SCOTUS has done this through the due process clause and selective incorporation of their then-favorite rights. Regarding the Right of Assembly and Petition, they did it in DeJonge v. Oregon 299 U.S. 353 (1937).
*The Third Amendment (quartering soldiers) is not yet incorporated, and neither is the Seventh (civil jury trials).
Mark said...
Achilles, if it was so widespread much earlier than known, how is it that no one brought it to New York city earlier?
There is a logic problem with your argument.
I also thought you were among those decrying the taking of numbers by attributing causes of death well afterward..
Yet here you hypocritically embrace it.
Read your post. Go through the points I have made.
If you are not a total idiot you will see what is wrong with this "logic problem" you have constructed.
Yes I am aware they are counting people who died in January and February as COVID-19 deaths. The point they started counting "presumed" and "assumed" deaths from past weeks was a clear inflection point in reported deaths.
It is clear what has been going on for a while now.
In conclusion:
The press is jumping on these reports, banking on the fact that most normal people won't even bother to read the study, or won't be able to understand the terminology in them.
They're doing that so they can present the results as confirming their pre-conceived bias: ORANGE MAN BAD.
J. Farmer said...
@Achilles:
The numbers just are not there.
I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. We are under a national emergency declaration. And you don't necessarily need huge numbers to justify the state's decision. You could say that the purpose is to prevent the numbers from getting big. Police power has been interpreted quite broadly, and protecting the general welfare from a potential public health crisis would probably be justified.
You can justify anything you want. Governments are good at justification.
My justification is that I am interested in protecting freedom.
In the end there will be a balance between individual freedom and collectivism.
And that balance will probably be decided by violence. Right or wrong will not factor into any of it.
Everyone at the protest should wear globes and masks, and maintain social distancing. It is a enormous completely unforced error to do anything else. That issue should not be part of the discussion, and it is the fault of those organizing protests that they are not insisting on this.
"The "Mark" Ken B is praising is the lefty Mark."
Holy crap, it is!
Well, IMO, the conservative Mark deserves the confusion.
Veterans Affairs’ Robert Wilkie on yesterday’s hydroxychloroquine study: "That’s an observational study. It’s not a clinical study ... We know the drug has been working on middle-age and younger veterans. And the gov of NY was just in the Oval Office yesterday asking for more" MSNBC
Jupiter said...
"The original goal, as I recollect, was to "flatten the curve", so we did not overwhelm the medical system. Here in Oregon, Coos Bay hospital just furloughed 71 people. I'd say the curve is flat enough."
Seems to me the original goal was "Get Trump." Flattening the curve was the stated goal.
"Seems to me the original goal was "Get Trump." Flattening the curve was the stated goal."
I accept the good intentions of those at the beginning of this. But given where we are now, yeah. Now it's about a wrecked economy come the November election.
so axios; politico 1.0 which put the hurt on the shake shack, got 5 million dollars, who says crime doesn't pay,
@Achilles:
In the end there will be a balance between individual freedom and collectivism.
And that balance will probably be decided by violence. Right or wrong will not factor into any of it.
Yes, yes, I know. You've alluded to this tree of liberty/blood of patriots event before. The reason these stat-at-home orders work in the first place is because large majorities of the population agree with them. If people come to reject their usefulness, they can simply ignore them. No state has anywhere near the ability to enforce these orders.
I agree with you about the individualism vs collectivism. It's a tension in all human social groups, from bands to tribes to chiefdoms to civilizations. We have mechanisms at various levels of our society to resolve this tension.
There are 3 Marks.
Lefty Mark A has a blogger ID ending in 59.
Lefty Mark B has a Blogger ID ending in 73.
Righty Mark Has a blogger ID ending in 91.
The Marks should take it upon themselves to sort this out.
The best way for protesters to protest would be to show up to exercise their First and Second Amendments at the same time.
Fuck off, Evers.
"The Marks should take it upon themselves to sort this out."
That's why I'm 'Original' Mike. I started out as just Mike, but when another one came along I did the obvious.
you cant spell 'protest' without P
"The Marks should take it upon themselves to sort this out."
It doesn't take cooperation. Just initiative. And perhaps swallowing your pride.
this is why 'splitting families' apart,' leaves me cold
"No state has anywhere near the ability to enforce these orders. "
Supposedly WI business violators could face $10,000 fine, licensing issues.
I say let them protest to their hearts content. Do an extra thorough job of disinfecting the Capitol building afterwards.
Maybe the protest can have porta-potties on trucks parked nearby.
The Mercy Flights need to add a million Depends Extra Absorbent for Madison’s Long Marchers. Trump will do that for the Deplorables.
EMERGENCY PETITION FOR ORIGINAL ACTION AND
EMERGENCY MOTION FOR TEMPORARY INJUNCTION
"Did anyone on this blog stand up for antifa's right to demand the building stay open so they could shit on the floors or write on the walls?"
I would support a permit for an Antifa protest. If they shit on the floors and write on the walls, they can expect to be fined/arrested for the municipal codes those actions would fall under. Those laws all already on the books.
"The 21st amendment has the best lyrics. "
But you can't dance to it.
Known Unknown
That's not what I asked. I asked if anyone here objecting to the need for a permit objected in the past (in linkable comments preferably) to similar constraints on antifa. Because I see people insisting that their bottle of goose sauce should never, ever be used as gander sauce.
I can easily go two hours without pissing, and I have BPH. I think you can protest without needing a pot to piss in, if you plan ahead.
Wasn't Farmer here yesterday telling us how the Democrats were not out to ruin the economy and any statement implying such was "blatant falsehoods?"
Fact: China is responsible for Covid-19; the Democrat party is almost certainly not (though given the close friendship between Biden and Feinstein and others with high level communist party members, you cannot rule anything out).
But the Democrat party is fully engaged in trying to keep America's economy down. They adamantly oppose letting anyone go back to work "until it is safe!" By which they mean, apparently, that Covid-19 is eradicated.
Democrats may not have created coronavirus, but they are surely using it to wreak havoc on the economy.... because when people are helpless, they now turn to government, not church, to help them. And once dependent on government, Democrats, the part of government, gains political power ("Vote for me or your benefits end! You'll starve!!!!!").
Democrats would rather have complete rule over a suffering, unhappy population than not be in power and have a prosperous, peaceful America. Just look at any other hellhole where leftists reign... they prefer misery over prosperity. Why wouldn't they here?
Ken B: "Known Unknown
That's not what I asked. I asked if anyone here objecting to the need for a permit objected in the past (in linkable comments preferably) to similar constraints on antifa. Because I see people insisting that their bottle of goose sauce should never, ever be used as gander sauce."
Is this the part where we pretend antifa's violence, shutting down roads, attacking passersby on foot and vehicles and torching businesses is not a consideration?
Oh, wait. Its Ken B.
Got it.
Inga: "I say let them protest to their hearts content. Do an extra thorough job of disinfecting the Capitol building afterwards."
Why? Are they taking the New York City subways to the protest?
Oh, I’d like to see them be allowed to protest. And share bathrooms. Eat together; drink together. Do it all together and as close to each other as they’d like.
And then go home to their loving, TrumpLoving families.
I’d ask only one thing; that everyone registers with a name and drivers license number. Or a birthdate and last-four SS #’s.
So that they can be identified by neighbors, coworkers, health insurers and others who will be impacted by the behavior.
This is like giving smallpox-infested blankets to the Indians, except now the Indians have been given full warnings about the blankets and still traveled half way across the state to line up for them.
Has Anti-1A ever had, or applied for, a permit to protest? They usually just violently shut down rallies/protests/demonstrations of people they deem to have no rights, in violation of TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 241§ Conspiracy against rights.
BTW, Drago, thanks for pointing out Ken B's use of "good Mark"; I sloppily assumed he was using the phrase as is the custom here. I just skim Ken's posts, dating back to when he arrived (pre-Covid?). He's been off-putting from the beginning, but I didn't realize he was a lefty.
The blanket story is a myth Chuck. But your point is a fair one anyway. The protesters will crowd together, if any are infected they will spread the virus, and this does present a danger to others. Whether that outweighs the right to protest isn’t clear, but the recklessness is.
Original Mike
Ken B isn’t a lefty. He's a mainstream free trading libertarian leaning Reagan Republican who wishes Romney were in his second term.
Isn't it futile to respond to Chuck (big C Chuck, since little c chuck is quite rational) since Chuck is now being actively deleted?
And you can see why he's moderated: he's dropped all pretense of civility with his open dreaming of genocide for Americans merely wanting to work.
"... a mainstream free trading libertarian leaning Reagan Republican who wishes Romney were in his second term."
That makes two of them.
@Vance:
Democrats may not have created coronavirus, but they are surely using it to wreak havoc on the economy.... because when people are helpless, they now turn to government, not church, to help them. And once dependent on government, Democrats, the part of government, gains political power ("Vote for me or your benefits end! You'll starve!!!!!").
With all due respect, this is completely incoherent. You're making a claim about people's motives with zero evidence that immediately precludes any alternative explanation. How exactly do you determine if a governor's actions are a result of legitimate concern for public health or your unhinged conspiracy theory? Or how do you even differentiate either of those from simple incompetence?
So their plan is to destroy their economy to make the people dependent on them? How can the state help them if the economy is destroyed? The economy is how the state is able to fund its activities.
Democrats would rather have complete rule over a suffering, unhappy population than not be in power and have a prosperous, peaceful America.
If the citizens were suffering and unhappy, how would the state stay in power? If the citizens simply ignored a ban that they thought was cruel and unhelpful, how would the state enforce it? Use a few thousand cops to put millions of people county jails?
I hope for your own sake you don't actually believe what you wrote.
Calling the asshole Mark "good" is not a good sign. Though I will say I didn't realize until Jon 's post that there are two lefty Mark's, so maybe you're calling one 'good' and I'm thinking of the other one. As I said above, I'm not going to waste my time sorting them out.
Binks
Okay, that was funny.
Yes, we are a sadly diminished band. That might help explain why American governance is so fucked up.
Ken B is a liar and a Concern Troll.
@Ken B:
Ken B isn’t a lefty. He's a mainstream free trading libertarian leaning Reagan Republican who wishes Romney were in his second term.
Oh god. No offense, but that's the exact kind of thinking we need to jettison from the GOP. You just outlined a way to obliterate the middle-class in the interest of employers and consumers. That is not a recipe for a healthy society.
"How can the state help them if the economy is destroyed? The economy is how the state is able to fund its activities."
I think it's called Modern Monetary Theory.
Chuck in favor of police state tactics.
Conserving Conservatism.
Ken B said...
Known Unknown
That's not what I asked. I asked if anyone here objecting to the need for a permit objected in the past (in linkable comments preferably) to similar constraints on antifa. Because I see people insisting that their bottle of goose sauce should never, ever be used as gander sauce.
I could see how a dishonest piece of shit would conflate people protesting excessive and unconstitutional seizures and actions by the government with antifa running around in masked mobs attacking political opponents.
By the way, assuming that the first case in California wasn't a shut-in, and was infected mid-January, and the doubling rate was 3-4 days, (slowing over time, maybe to 5 days) before the lock down, that means roughly 500,000-1,000,000 Bay Area residents had and recovered from it. Perhaps the person infected non-Bay Area people so let's say 1,000,000 Californians plus or minus an admittedly large number.
1,000,000 equals 2.5% of californians. Oddly, this is right within the range of the LA and Santa Clara County samples.
Also, with 1500 or so Fluhan deaths, that puts the Fluban-Caused death rate right ... between -0.1% and 0.2%
JUST LIKE I'VE SAID ALL ALONG (and some others).
Thanks for shooting the economy in the face, assholes.
Farmer
You raise an issue I was going to mention. You think me a wakadoodle mainstreamer. I think you a wackadoodle white separatist. We both think Inga a loony lefty, and she doubtless thinks us deranged right wingers. So we all mutually disagree on politics. By we all broadly agree on the response to the virus. I would add Tim in Vermont, a Trumpkin I believe, to the list if he were still here.
I think that is because we are able to look beyond partisan politics and the mundane issues we usually squabble about, and see the current situation as more important and more urgent.
Most of the rest are just sunken in their hyper partisan resentments.
But I was told no one is dying due to lack of care!
"The Marks should take it upon themselves to sort this out."
It shouldn't really matter who says it or does it. It should matter what is said.
The issue is that some people post in bad faith. People like Chuck and Ken B for example.
In the end the bad faith commenters will just switch IPs and switch names.
So it just doesn't matter.
*The Third Amendment (quartering soldiers) is not yet incorporated."
I guess this means that the individual States can let the National Guard live in your house. But I would guess that the Wisconsin NG could not go to Illinois and live in peoples houses because that would impact interstate commerce under Wickard v Filburn and be a federal issue. If the NG were federalized for national service they would have to leave and rent their own places.
Chuck said...
Oh, I’d like to see them be allowed to protest. And share bathrooms. Eat together; drink together. Do it all together and as close to each other as they’d like.
And then go home to their loving, TrumpLoving families.
I’d ask only one thing; that everyone registers with a name and drivers license number. Or a birthdate and last-four SS #’s.
So that they can be identified by neighbors, coworkers, health insurers and others who will be impacted by the behavior.
This is like giving smallpox-infested blankets to the Indians, except now the Indians have been given full warnings about the blankets and still traveled half way across the state to line up for them.
Good to see you back Chuck. And in excellent form.
The left is not made up of good people. They are pieces of shit like Chuck and they want anyone who does not conform to the demands of the state to die.
As I've said before, I don't argue with the original "flatten the curve" plan to keep from overwhelming the medical system. Maybe it was wise, and maybe not. I don't know. But we accomplished that.
Only stupid people assume or claim that all protestors are Trump supporters.
Stupid people who assume there are no Democrats who want to go back to work.
Stupid people who believe, or pretend to believe, that all Democrats are financially able to weather the storm.
Maybe some of the left protesting will see the media and others lumping them in with Trumpists and open their eyes and say, "What the fuck? "
Asking protesters to self-dox — good luck, Chuck!
Lately I've seen a lot of people who claim to be libertarian who constantly make arguments that sound as if they're really fans of authoritarianism.
Now more than ever, during the midst of an apparent crisis, it's important to be aware of our civil liberties, what the government is doing, and whether or not it's justified. It's easy to be a fan of and defend things like individual rights and personal freedom during normal, peaceful times. It's quite another to go against the herd and be risked of being pilloried as some kind of reckless fool during a crisis like this.
"If the citizens were suffering and unhappy, how would the state stay in power?"
Usually your posts are well-thought out - but I'm not sure that sentence is.
BTW, California is opening hospitals back up for elective surgeries.
About fucking time.
Peripheral working in hospital satellite location went from 30 doctors down to three a month or so ago. I ignorantly assumed they all went frontline to fight the virus. Nope, went home because of lack of work.
"Nope, went home because of lack of work."
That's happening in Madison, too.
When I lived in Eastern Europe shortly after the fall of communism, I noticed that the commies had planted grass in place of cobbles in the old town squares. My theory is that they did it to close off a natural gathering spot by putting up a sign that says to keep off the grass. The governor in this case is using the same kind of trick.
Original Mike said...
As I've said before, I don't argue with the original "flatten the curve" plan to keep from overwhelming the medical system. Maybe it was wise, and maybe not. I don't know. But we accomplished that.
The problem is the numbers were just never there. It was clear that the COVID-19 virus had spread across the entire country and had been in the population for months.
We had clear information from the Diamond Princess example who was at risk and the kinds of case numbers we would get from universal exposure.
We knew who the susceptible populations were.
Isolating seniors and nursing homes made sense.
Shutting schools and restaurants and most businesses never made sense. Locking people in their homes never made sense. Shutting down parks never made sense.
It was just tin pot tyrants letting their true colors show and a media effort to tank the economy.
Greg on WI: “At the time the numbers should have been climbing (if the in person voting caused a significant number of infections), they dropped.”
But, what if we hadn’t! We didn’t know! We don’t know! We must follow the experts! We followed the experts! We had real calculations!
Bagoh2: “In Nevada they are forecasting total deaths from Covid to be less than half of from the last bad flu season with everything open.”
But what if we hadn’t! We didn’t know! We –
Will any place outside of NYC live up to alarmist hopes?
Nonapod said...
Lately I've seen a lot of people who claim to be libertarian who constantly make arguments that sound as if they're really fans of authoritarianism.
Now more than ever, during the midst of an apparent crisis, it's important to be aware of our civil liberties, what the government is doing, and whether or not it's> justified. It's easy to be a fan of and defend things like individual rights and personal freedom during normal, peaceful times. It's quite another to go against the herd and be risked of being pilloried as some kind of reckless fool during a crisis like this.
This is exactly right.
The citizens of this country making decisions for themselves would have done infinitely better than these experts.
The foundation of a free society is confidence in the individual citizen.
But public education has turned many people into panicky stupid sheep.
Cobblestones are useful and traditional materials for popular revolts. They can be pried up and flung, or used to make barricades.
Ken B said...
Farmer
You raise an issue I was going to mention. You think me a wakadoodle mainstreamer. I think you a wackadoodle white separatist. We both think Inga a loony lefty, and she doubtless thinks us deranged right wingers. So we all mutually disagree on politics. By we all broadly agree on the response to the virus. I would add Tim in Vermont, a Trumpkin I believe, to the list if he were still here.
All you did was list people who are wrong. If you look at his posts Farmer no longer agrees with you by the way.
I think that is because we are able to look beyond partisan politics and the mundane issues we usually squabble about, and see the current situation as more important and more urgent.
Most of the rest are just sunken in their hyper partisan resentments.
People who agree with Ken were able to look past partisan politics.
People who disagree with Ken are just sunken in hyper partisan resentment.
You are just a dishonest idiot. You post the most mundane and thoughtless crap. This would be fine except you are dishonest and you completely misrepresent what other people are saying.
You and Chuck are in the same category from here on out.
In Hawaii we had 4 new covid-19 cases on Monday, two yesterday, and zero today.
Sebastian said...
Will any place outside of NYC live up to alarmist hopes?
They are resorting to open fraud to live up to alarmist hopes as well.
@exhelodrvr1:
Usually your posts are well-thought out - but I'm not sure that sentence is.
It was in regard to a claim that a state governor would purpose immiserate his or her population in order to make them dependent on the government. Doesn't seem like a winning strategy given the nature of electoral politics. Never mind potential interventions from the legislature, the courts, or the federal government. The whole claim was an unhinged conspiracy theory.
"I’d ask only one thing; that everyone registers with a name and drivers license number. Or a birthdate and last-four SS #’s."
Great. Now, do voting.
"People who agree with Ken were able to look past partisan politics.
People who disagree with Ken are just sunken in hyper partisan resentment."
LOL
FullMoon said...
Only stupid people assume or claim that all protestors are Trump supporters.
Stupid people who assume there are no Democrats who want to go back to work."
My hair stylist is a Democrat. She doesn't like Trump. She is desperate to get back to work. Customers are going to her house to get their hair cut.
She is quite upset about the extended lockdown.
It's true that not all of those who want to return to work are Trump supporters. Some are Democrats, but if they are smart, they will not remain Democrats.
Farmer: Your contention appears to be that the Democrats are not trying to use the pandemic for political purposes at all, and they are as pure as the driven snow, if perhaps a bit imcompent.
So what did Democrat Majority Whip in the House mean when he said: "“This is a tremendous opportunity to restructure things to fit our vision" with respect to the coranvirus? Why is Pelosi holding up aid to businesses unless they put in union protections and guarantee "minority quotas" for board memberships?
NYC is the hardest hit place in the US and currently the world. Democrats demand that I in my rural county in central Utah shouldn't be allowed to go outside; to shop or visit parks or go on vacations, etc. NYC has not shut down Central Park or the Subways, and it's run by the left. Why do I have to live under restrictions that the hardest hit place in America does not?
Let us compare Utah Republican Governor Gary Herbert to Democrat Michigan's Whitman. In Utah, the Covid hotspot is Salt Lake County and a neighboring county, Park City. In Michigan, it appears to be Detroit.
Utah's governor actually canceled some mandatory stay at home orders issued by zealous health officials, and restricted the stay at home orders that were issued to the big cities. He explicitly stated that rural Utah is a lot different than Salt Lake and doesn't need the same kind of orders.
Michigan's governor has flat bans that apply to everyone, in a seizure of power. Just like New Jersey's Democrat governor and Kentucky's Democrat governor went out of their way to arrest Christians, most of the nations Democrats are exercising as much power as they think they can get away with. Contrast that with people like Governor Herbert, who is trying to strike a balance between protection and liberty.
As for your "if the citizens are unhappy how does the state stay in power?" Ask the Russians about the Soviet Union for 80 years. Or the Chinese.
""If the citizens were suffering and unhappy, how would the state stay in power?"
Ask your fellow Romanians, Venezuelans, Cambodians, Polacks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Ukrainians, Estonians, Latvians, East Germans ..
Nevermind. There's too many to list.
Tony Evers: "Folks, we don’t have time. COVID-19 will not wait."
Tony is clearly not on the same page as the Democrat Party that runs our House of Representatives. Apparently they think that Covid will wait. Time and again it'll wait until Nancy and her friends get approval to shell out more money for their favored companies, groups, and unions (read: donors). Apparently Covid has a unique property that makes it wait until Nancy has gone through 5-6 pints of Jeni's Gelato.
Talk to me about Republicans when your own team has cleaned up it's own mess.
Take away your job.
Take away your ability to protest having your job taken away.
The people who want to work to support their families? Get their identification; papers, please.
And Governor Cuomo Antionette now says “You want to go to work? Go take a job as an essential worker.”
The Eloi REALLY want to go there.
I am Laslo.
" libertarian"
Oh, shit, that's funny Ken. You make me miss Garage.
No portapotties at Selma? None at Washington D.C.? Antiwar Marches I was at... no portapotties.
Today's DNC exposed again by the T Man.
Rahm Emanuel - Never let a crisis go to waste.
"It was in regard to a claim that a state governor would purpose immiserate his or her population in order to make them dependent on the government. Doesn't seem like a winning strategy given the nature of electoral politics. Never mind potential interventions from the legislature, the courts, or the federal government. The whole claim was an unhinged conspiracy theory."
I do think that the crew in Sprigfield (IL) really hopes that they can use crono panic as hidden cover to make the Feds responsible for Illinois Pensions. I bet this is Durban the Dick's main talking point now.
Josephbleau said...
*The Third Amendment (quartering soldiers) is not yet incorporated."
I guess this means that the individual States can let the National Guard live in your house.
That's right, at least according to the selective incorporation fans. Since SCOTUS has not spoken through decree it is unsettled law.
Been biding my time, just waiting for those Third Amendment cases to explode, for my skills as a Third Amendment specialist, long honed in solitude, to suddenly be in demand -- to become the Micheal Avenatti of Third Amendment law. It's been a lonely 25 years, but someday maybe I will be on Rachel Maddow and those other MSNBC shows. And maybe interstate billboards and sides of city buses.
“ Great. Now, do voting.”
Not addressed to me, but let me answer.
I absolutely support voter ID. I absolutely think everyone who votes should prove who they are and have their name recorded so they cannot easily vote twice, or vote under the name of a dead person. The secret ballot is great, and a right, but secret voting is not.
And as far as I know the record of who actually voted is public. That was used to expose an Obama ad years ago, the woman in the ad actually did not vote.
You a Democrat by any chance?
J. Farmer said...
@exhelodrvr1:
Usually your posts are well-thought out - but I'm not sure that sentence is.
It was in regard to a claim that a state governor would purpose immiserate his or her population in order to make them dependent on the government. Doesn't seem like a winning strategy given the nature of electoral politics. Never mind potential interventions from the legislature, the courts, or the federal government. The whole claim was an unhinged conspiracy theory.
I agree with exhelodrvr1.
Everything the government has done over the 4 administrations before Trump was to core out the middle class and destroy the middle class.
This lockdown fits this mold perfectly. The technocrat class can work from home and government employees continue to get paid. Entrepreneurs and working class just get fucked.
You are usually smarter than this.
“ I do think that the crew in Sprigfield (IL) really hopes that they can use crono panic as hidden cover to make the Feds responsible for Illinois Pensions. I bet this is Durban the Dick's main talking point now.”
But that’s not responsive to Farmer's point. Will they try to exploit the crisis? Certainly. That’s different from showing they deliberately caused it.
“The left is not made up of good people. They are pieces of shit like Chuck and they want anyone who does not conform to the demands of the state to die.”
If they are at risk of dying by going to such rallies in the time of pandemic, they re taking the risk willingly and knowingly. No one should wish these people dead, they already have a death wish all on their own.
Ken B isn’t a lefty. He's a mainstream free trading libertarian leaning Reagan Republican who wishes Romney were in his second term.
No. You're a douche nozzle of a Canadian who should shut his assmouth about U.S. politics.
"Ken B said...
The blanket story is a myth Chuck. But your point is a fair one anyway. The protesters will crowd together, if any are infected they will spread the virus, and this does present a danger to others. Whether that outweighs the right to protest isn’t clear, but the recklessness is."
Same bullshit they said about in person voting. No surge. Cases have GONE down since the election. Ken, BPH? Figures. Once a bed wetter, always a bed wetter.
Gleefully reported by Fox News? Why would they do that?
Maybe your caricature that Fox News is the far right wing network is wrong?
More book cooking of the stats in Pennsylvania?Total deaths reported on keystonereport.com due to Coronavirus as of:
Thursday 584
Friday 649
Sat 707
Sunday 836
Monday 1,204
Tuesday 1,564
Comment from Franklin County in Pennsylvania:
"The PA Department of Health has reported that Franklin County COVID19 deaths have gone from zero to ten overnight. The only problem is that Franklin County still reports that there has still been no COVID19 deaths."
Cases have gone down, Curious George?
I see WI reported a high number of new cases today with 225.
Did anyone on this blog stand up for antifa's right to demand the building stay open so they could shit on the floors or write on the walls
Yup, because standing in front of a building for a couple hours and chanting is the SAME THING as shitting on floors and writing on the walls. Maybe in Canada it is. But not here.
How unserious do you have to be?
“Democrats demand that I in my rural county in central Utah shouldn't be allowed to go outside...”
People in Wisconsin go outside everyday. What is wrong with you people in Utah?
@Ken B:
You raise an issue I was going to mention. You think me a wakadoodle mainstreamer. I think you a wackadoodle white separatist.
I actually didn't know what your particular political orientation was. I certainly don't think there's anything "wakadoodle" about it; I just strongly disagree with it. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, since it would be irrelevant to how I judge anything else you say.
I think that is because we are able to look beyond partisan politics and the mundane issues we usually squabble about, and see the current situation as more important and more urgent. Most of the rest are just sunken in their hyper partisan resentments.
I think at least some can probably be described that way. But I also think there are plenty who see the virus has still a potential significant threat, would concede the need for a temporary isolation, but are concerned about the continued efficacy and the negative consequences a prolonged shutdown would have.
Unfortunately, the extreme divisions in the country have made it difficult to bridge ideological chasms. Instead of trying to understand each other and perhaps find some common ground based in shared interests, we impugn motives, we impugn character. we dismiss, we discount. Instead of being comfortable with a degree of the unknown and uncertainty, we declare a position and then hunker down and defend it at all costs. We extended little credence to evidence or ideas that challenge our position, and we hype amplify evidence or ideas that support our position. As usually happens, somewhere between these defensive positions is the truth.
Inga
Have you seen the film from the day in Little Rock, where the National Gaurd escorted the black children to school? Past a mob of howling, hate-addled adults? You must have seen that film.
Does that hate-addled mob remind you of anything?
walter: "Chuck in favor of police state tactics.
Conserving Conservatism."
Quite frankly I'm surprised LLR-lefty Chuck even has the time to post here what with his round the clock support of far left democrat governor Whitmer's leftist policies.
“Cases have gone down, Curious George?
I see WI reported a high number of new cases today with 225.”
Up from 121 yesterday. That’s a big spike.
Blogger I Callahan said..."How unserious do you have to be?"
I think he just answered you (3:54pm).
“Inga
Have you seen the film from the day in Little Rock, where the National Gaurd escorted the black children to school? Past a mob of howling, hate-addled adults? You must have seen that film.
Does that hate-addled mob remind you of anything?”
Yes it does.
Ken B: "Inga
Have you seen the film from the day in Little Rock, where the National Gaurd escorted the black children to school? Past a mob of howling, hate-addled adults? You must have seen that film.
Does that hate-addled mob remind you of anything?"
Ken B returns to labeling conservatives racists.
This is on top of labeling Trump supporters "isolationist trumpkins".
Which is on top of labeling Trump supporters anti-semites.
Which is on top of defining "free trade" as requiring the US to always be at a significant tariff disadvantage.
All on top of walking hand in hand with the wildest of the wild far left conspiracy kooks on Althouse blog.
I'll give you this: Ken B is at least, at least, every bit as "conservative" or "libertarian" or "middle of the road" as LLR-lefty Chuck.
Every bit.
And now Ken B is reduced to saying Althouse blog posters are the equivalent to racists blocking school house doorways in the south in the 50's......on the very same day Ken B came to antifa's defense.
Looks like all the masks are off now.
Which, in the end, is a very positive development I think.
So is Evers calling for a (head)cracking down on those publicity-stunt nurses who protested outside the White House?
I see WI reported a high number of new cases today with 225.
Out of 8 million people. That's not a high number.
Are ANY of these people serious?
@Achilles:
Everything the government has done over the 4 administrations before Trump was to core out the middle class and destroy the middle class.
I totally agree with this. I just don't think they took those actions believing that that would be the outcome. Absent some pretty clear evidence to the contrary, I usually prefer incompetence as an explanation over malfeasance. Business interests wanted the cheaper labor and production costs. Economic think tanks churned out papers explaining how we would get cheaper products for consumers and higher profits for business. Strategists said that making China a responsible stakeholder in the international system would exert a normalizing effect. Liberal internationalists believed that as China got richer, they'd follow the same path as Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong and Singapore, opening up and becoming more liberal. Realists like John Mearsheimer believed that China's rise wouuld inevitably make them a competitor. Neocons wanted a more aggressive, confrontational policy towards China, particularly over Taiwan. Labor unions opposed permanent most favored nation status for China. Pro-labor forces opposed it for the same reason.
I think that for the most part, all of these people agreed with the positions they were advocating, and all were taking efforts to influence the decision-making process to the best of their ability. But, power is not evenly distributed in our country, and those with more power (and thus more ability to exert influence), got their way.
Meanwhile, your nation's capital was saved the leftists' planned shutdown/blockade of the city streets for Earth Day.
Yes, there has been a change in Marks.
And now . . . 201. Again!
Mark: "So is Evers calling for a (head)cracking down on those publicity-stunt nurses who protested outside the White House?"
It's different when they do it. When the left protests that's simply "what Democracy looks like".
In the same way that mosques are unmolested by police but Christian churches on Easter have democrat-authorized fully armored up members waltzing right on in the Churches to shut down Christian services.
"Have you seen the film from the day in Little Rock, where the National Gaurd escorted the black children to school? Past a mob of howling, hate-addled adults? You must have seen that film. Does that hate-addled mob remind you of anything?"
Yeah - It reminds me that George Wallace didn't think much of the Constitution, either.
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