ADDED: Is it really suicide? NYT:
Jeffrey Epstein Commits Suicide at Manhattan JailAND: This happens as new information hits: "Jeffrey Epstein Accuser Names Powerful Men in Alleged Sex Ring/In newly unsealed documents, Virginia Giuffre claims that Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell trafficked her to politicians, princes, and a high-flying financier, among others" (Daily Beast):
Mr. Epstein, the financier indicted on sex trafficking charges last month, hung himself and his body was found this morning.
Virginia Giuffre, who says that Epstein and Maxwell trafficked her to powerful people for erotic massages and sex, claimed in depositions in 2016 that Maxwell directed her to have sex with former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, Britain’s Prince Andrew (whom she has accused before), wealthy financier Glenn Dubin, former senator George Mitchell, now-deceased MIT scientist Marvin Minsky, and modeling agent Jean-Luc Brunel, as well as “another prince,” a "foreign president," a well-known prime minsiter" and the owner of a “large hotel chain” in France.ALSO: Back on July 24th, there was news of a suicide attempt by Epstein. I was dubious at the time. With a recent suicide attempt — by hanging, too — how was he kept in a way that would allow him to kill himself by hanging? He was so important as a person with knowledge of possible crimes by many other people — such important people — the government had an especially strong obligation to keep him alive.
PLUS: Who will believe this was truly suicide? The conspiracy theories will go on forever. This is like Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald. Even if Epstein directly sought and achieved his own death, the authorities apparently KNEW that he wanted to kill himself and therefore they caused the death by not stopping it. They were on notice and they let him do it. I infer they wanted him dead and got what they wanted, whether he killed himself or not.
MORE:
I agree @AOC.— Rep. Matt Gaetz (@RepMattGaetz) August 10, 2019
Chairman @RepJerryNadler should prioritize a Judiciary investigation into how Jeffrey Epstein died in federal custody (in Nadler’s own neighborhood!) over the Kavanaugh confirmation (which already happened), and the Russia hoax (which never happened).
AND: I'm checking out the hashtags on Twitter, and what I'm seeing is the political weaponization of the Epstein death. Some people are jumping to blame the Clintons, and anything that seems like conspiracy thinking is already triggering observations that you're a nutcase.
Posts
315 comments:
1 – 200 of 315 Newer› Newest»I’m not a big believer in Clintoning, but yeah.
Not surprised.
Biggest winners?
I wonder why he offed himself before trial. Sure, he was probably going to be convicted eventually but why not roll the dice? He could always kill himself after that.
Another one bites the dust.
Jill Filipovic hardest hit.
How very...........convenient.
It's suicide like Seth Rich was a armed robbery.
There isn't a chance in hell this is suicide. Everyone knows it. And nothing will be done about it. He had the goods on too many powerful people. I'm surprised he lasted this long.
Nice country we have here. Obama, Comey, Brennan, et al plot to remove an elected president, Epstein gets Arkansawed, can't walk into a Walmart these days without your head on a swivel, tent cities around SF, LA, and Seattle, murders in Baltimore that you cannot call murders. And all because Trump!
Wasn’t he on suicide watch? How did he do it? No camera in his cell?
Vince Fostered.
Died while under suicide watch...
Now...I'm not one to chalk up basic incompetence to be some sort of proof of a vast conspiracy, but this is awfully convenient.
I think that I speak for many here, in finding his death extraordinarily suspicious. He supposedly tried several weeks ago, failed, and they didn’t have him on suicide watch. Besides, too many inconvenient people die around the Clintons, and the trail was awfully close to Bill this last week.
He was on suicide watch HOW did this happen.
Unbelievable. Both that it happened and that it was suicide.
The article says he has been on suicide watch since his last attempt. I guess that doesn't mean 24-hour surveillance, but I wonder what it does consist of.
On a somber note; this sucks. The result will be continued innuendo that Trump was an Epstein client and likely made his suicide happen (as many here are saying about Clinton). And the truly guilty are less likely to face exposure. There are question about whether he had the estate he claimed, which could then help his victims. Over all, as much as I have generally no interest in his continued existence; I'd rather he was alive to testify than dead.
At least he didn't have two self inflicted gunshot wounds in the back of his head.
I wonder if he had anything on Mueller, like Whitey Bulgar did ?
I wonder how the Brits (citizens and law enforcement) are dealing with Prince Andrew's purported involvement in the sex trafficking? I assume they can arrest a Prince, but would they?
There are lots of suspects here, including the decedent.
The Epstein industry is gonna roll now!
On the previous 'suicide' attempt it was stated that he had marks around his neck that were self-made. How does one choke themselves out with their own hands? It can't be done.
So they put him back in his cell and gave him his belt and some nylon rope and told him to have a nice weekend?
I'm so tired of all the bullshit that they keep asking us to swallow. And by 'they' I mean everyone in politics and the media. The whole lot of them.
Lincolnf,
As to your question, why now. Could this be like a Roman "suicide" where his estate will remain intact? Whereas, if he kills himself after conviction, his victims could make claims against it. Just a thought.
“Suicide.”
Dead men tell no tales.
Gangster government at its finest. Good job, New York!
He was probably murdered, he had too much bad info on too many rich and powerful people.
That's a possibility, CWJ, I imagine we'll get updates and additional info. throughout the day, maybe his estate will be mentioned. I'll look for it.
He was so important as a person with knowledge of possible crimes by many other people — such important people — the government had an especially strong obligation to keep him alive.
Or make sure he died.
Micheal K — I guess it isn’t libel if you phrase it as a question? Any evidence or pure fantasy created by your neurons? Cute.
This takes the Friday night News Dump to a whole new level.
Even Stevie Wonder saw this coming.
THEOLDMAN
So is the investigation over? Silly question, I know.
Man on suicide watch poised to finger powerful people of sexual crimes dies by suicide.
Riiiiight.
The Lolita Express just took its last trip outta here. Somehow Bill Clinton wasn’t on board.
I never believed any of those Clinton murder conspiracies until now.
it's certainly Funny, how MANY people that Fuck with the Clintons end up committing suicide
I set an over/under at 39 days of life for this guy back on July 25 in that original post.
Not that close really as it turns out (and while I was typing it I wondered if shorter was a smarter bet) - but nobody else took my line. So I win I guess. Yay.
It is this sort of thing that makes me doubtful if we will ever see any repercussions of the coupe attempt. Does Barr have the courage? Will witnesses have the courage?
Trump and Clinton and the Eyes Wide Shut contingent celebrating today.
I see that it was mere minutes before “Clintoning,” “Vince Foster” and “Seth Rich” we’re invoked.
Just yesterday, Michael Isikoff did a must-hear interview with substitute host Dave Davies on the NPR program, “Fresh Air.” Isikoff has a new podcast, “Conspiracyland,” about the laughable insanity of the alt-right (and significantly the Russians) in generating the grand myth that Seth Rich was murdered for his involvement in DNC/Clinton communications. Just like Vince Foster.
Here is the Fresh Air link, with embedded links to Isikoff:
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/08/749392506/conspiracyland-debunks-theories-about-murder-of-dnc-staffer-seth-rich
It’s a wonderful exercise in easy-listening myth-debunking.
{#46}
The world is a better place.
AA: “... the government had an especially strong obligation to keep him alive.“
“Obligation,” yes. Now reality — follow the money. And incentives. Lots of wealthy and powerful men wanted Epstein dead. That’s who runs the U.S. Government.
Suicide, my eye.
Me cynical? You betcha. The sun is always shining here in Realville.
And Epstein’s trial likely would’ve been in 2020. Democrats can’t have that.
I think we need Mueller, Weissman, Strzok, et al to get to the bottom of this. Trump could be behind this, or even the RUSSIANS!
So a "24/7 Suicide Watch" means that you watch them closely until the suicide job is complete.
“With a recent suicide attempt — by hanging, too — how was he kept in a way that would allow him to kill himself by hanging?”
Uppercase, bold, italic.
interesting.
a guy commits suicide, while on suicide watch
EVERY comment here questions it; except!
a steve uhr takes the opportunity to try to smear Dr K
a Life Long Liberal takes the opportunity to say: Move Along, Folks; nothing to see here
Epstein was an extraordinarily resourceful fellow. I wonder whether the huge web he created wasn't just to entrap underage girls for himself but rather to entrap the rich and influential men who patronized those girls. Webs within webs. Who's the spider, who's the fly....If he were blackmailing Top Men, I'm surprised he didn't have a Plan B, where he let it be known that certain information would become available if he met an untimely demise. On the other hand, if he were blackmailing Top Men, there are easier ways to arrange his death than within a prison cell.....I wonder if we'll ever know the full story. Probably not. Ms. Maxwell probably has trouble sleeping, or maybe she sleeps easier.
Here's hoping a Dead Man switch has kept scumbag alive for years and that it's now depressed and wild DVD collections (CDs/VHS tapes?) start appearing in numerous reporters' inboxes/mailboxes. Or imagine a digital one of these is; several anonymous outlook or other email accounts, a massive number of emails to reporters each of which links to a number of online dropbox or other folders, the emails sent with the link and key to the reporters two years ago with a delay send of 30 days (meaning that if the sender doesn't logon and reset the delay by end of each 30 day period, they all go). And Jeffrey smiling as he steps off the bed frame as he sets off the biggest scandal powder keg in modern history. Tick, tick tick.
Vince Foster is a verb.
I’ll read the stories later but how difficult would it really be - if a prisoner is on a real suicide watch - for law enforcement to prevent death by hanging?
Hanging is a bit of a process (would attract attention) and makes some odd noises, no?
Guy sitting outside cell watching him to prevent it could easily do that, eh?
Anyway I’ll read details later but we cannot trust much reporting on this issue, with all the risks to the elites.
Blogger steve uhr said...
Micheal K — I guess it isn’t libel if you phrase it as a question? Any evidence or pure fantasy created by your neurons? Cute.
Steve, do you know anything about Whitey Bulgar and Mueller ?
Or is this just one of your braun farts ? That was a question, too. Reading would be good for you but might not be good for you illusions.
Another cynic here. Gotta hand it to ‘em to be so comically predictable at this point. Maybe someday there will be enough skeptics to matter...
Can we at least use it another example of why you shouldn’t put government in charge of things. You can’t keep a perp alive but you want to take over healthcare?
The NYT says "hung" instead of "hanged"?
The Clintons issued the same press release of regret when Buddy the dog escaped and was run over by a car as when Vince Foster died. Not saying there's any connection.
Next up, flight logs destroyed because they only contained information about yoga and wedding plans.
I agree -- Epic Failure on the part of the Prison. The Govt got what it wanted.
Cue up the Conspiracy Theories.
Gilber. Michael brought up mueller. Is that on topic??
I agree that the suicide looks very suspicious. Happy.
If you have sheets, you can hang yourself.
That he was on suicide watch may in this case mean only that they were going to watch him and make sure they taped the suicide as it happened.
"the government had an especially strong obligation to keep him alive"
Government has an obligation -- ah, yes. After several years in which officials of the U.S. government first mobilized to prevent the election of a politician they despised and then, mobilized to remove him and undermine his administration, Althouse keeps the faith -- government has an obligation! an obligation to do the right thing! just as the NYT has an obligation to avoid misleading headlines!
Look, I'd prefer to live in Althouseworld. But out here in the real world, obligations are for suckers.
As the Church Lady would say..how convenient.
Michael. You accused mueller of being part of Epstein’s sex ring. Evidence?
Indeed tho - if anything about the Bill Clinton was nearing the surface, this is why Epstein in dead.
Scott Adams "the world's most suspicious suicide"
Welcome to Jeopardy!
And for $100, in the category: Obvious Answers...
Michael Isikoff, NPR's Fresh Air
What would a Life Long Liberal be listening to, that he would consider:Must Hear?
If you have sheets, you can hang yourself.
When Chelsea Manning was on suicide watch, she had a blanket that was designed not to be shredded. Wikipedia describes her detention and the measures they (the Marines) took to prevent her harming herself.
This was a mercy killing. Thousands of wealthy men all over the world were close to peak stressed out until this last minute reprieve was announced for them. It was the fastest spread good News ever seen.
Why wasn't that fucker in a strait jacket??
The dead pool is now open. What's the O/U on McCabe? Strozk?
He suicides on a Friday night!! This will be washed out of the narrative by Monday morning. Jeffrey Who?
We'll probably never know for sure whether or not he truly committed suicide, but here's one undeniable fact: his suicide will cause others with intimate knowledge of his schemes to pause before coming forward. Except those with knowledge of Trump or Dershowitz's involvement. They can proceed, and book deals await
The NYT says "hung" instead of "hanged"?
That might be correct; some dictionaries say to use "hanged" when someone is "put to death" by hanging, which excludes suicide.
Webster's, in this horrible little article, uses two different prescriptions of when to use "hanged":
"Only use hanged when referring to someone being sentenced to death via hanging." = not Epstein.
Then they change their minds:
"Use hanged when referring to a person being suspended by a rope around the neck until dead."
The guards are supposed to be continuously watching.
Who is going to be the scapegoat?
Just sending a message to anyone out there thinking about exposing the rich and powerful. Nice life you have there.
It's nice to see the term #clintonbodycount trending on Twitter again (even if maybe only for next 5 minutes until Twitter stops it). Makes one nostalgic.
From Chinatown, “
GITTES
I'll tell you the unwritten law, you
dumb son of a bitch, you gotta be
rich to kill somebody, anybody and
get away with it. You think you got
that kind of dough, you think you
got that kind of class?
I hear campaign corks popping like fireworks. More people celebrating this guy's death than Osama Bin Laden.
The Man Who Knew Too Many.
A LOT of people are breathing easier today.
AOCs feed thinks Trump killed him so Trump wouldn’t get in trouble.
Evidently, BJ and Crooked Hillary baked Epstein a cake, and inside of the cake was a rope!
How many more needless, preventable deaths will our nation just stand by and accept? We need to pass common sense Clinton control laws NOW!
Isikoff has a new podcast, “Conspiracyland,” about the laughable insanity of the alt-right (and significantly the Russians) in generating the grand myth that Seth Rich was murdered for his involvement in DNC/Clinton communications. Just like Vince Foster.
He is the co-author with David Corn of the book entitled Russian Roulette: The Inside Story of Putin's War on America and the Election of Donald Trump.
The guards are supposed to be continuously watching.
That is the problem.
I believe it was a Frankie Pentangeli-type deal, but the guards simply let him do it.
Check all their bank accounts, especially the overseas ones.
Some people are jumping to blame the Clintons,
You didn't need to go on Twitter to see this. Just read the comments on your very own post.
Marcus wins the web! The trolls here? Well they're just... trolls.
This fubar may mean it's lights out too for Mayor DeBlasio's prez candidacy. So it's a twofer in the Win column for the Dems!
Government can't keep this high value perp alive in jail, can't secure the border, can't balance its books, lets both the state and the feds devote scarce time and money and manpower to prosecute the ElPaso killer for the same crimes, etc yet we seem to think govt can manage new Red Flag laws?
Blogger steve uhr said...
Michael. You accused mueller of being part of Epstein’s sex ring. Evidence?
Steve, I understand that Prevagen, or whatever it is called, is good for brain deficiencies. I know nothing about Mueller's sexual proclivities, if any, but he definitely had an interest in Whitey Bulgar who had a sudden stoppage of breath while in custody. Whitey probably had a good bit to say about the FBI, under Mueller's supervision, when they convicted four innocent men of murder to protect informant Whitey.
In fact, the case of Whitey Bulger, a fugitive eluding capture for 16 years, had been one of the biggest scandals in the history of the FBI, and the Bureau’s official story of its resolution is so preposterous that it either casts a withering light on the competence of Mueller and his G men or reeks of something smellier in Mueller’s domain.
From 1979 to 1995, Whitey Bulger engaged in a criminal reign of terror that eventually established him as the most powerful underworld boss in New England. As so often in the annals of organized crime, the outlaw and the law were partners in a dread dance, and in late 1994, tipped off by his FBI handler, one John Connolly, that indictments were imminent, Bulger went on the lam and disappeared.
You're welcome.
Hey, ah, Freder, have you ever laughed in your entire miserable life?
Great picture today in THE WEEK IN PICTURES: TRITE SUPREMACY EDITION that has a picture of Crooked Hillary that says: “CDC: People With Dirt On The Clintons Have 843% Greater Risk Of Suicide”
Except, no doubt, NPR’s Fresh Air will definitively prove that they Clintons had nothing to do with Epstein’s “suicide” as well as that of Vince Foster and Seth Rich. Oh, wait, Rich apparently was the victim of a robbery gone bad, in a safe part of DC, and his valuables not taken.
Cui bono?
Joe Biden told his followers that Epstein was part of the coded prophecy of an apocalyptic war in which Jewish and non-Jewish whites would be maneuvered into virtually exterminating each other over the treatment of Epstein. Upon the war's conclusion, after Jewish billionaires had killed off the few non-Jews that had survived, Biden and his followers would emerge from an underground city on Little St. James Island in which they would have escaped the conflict.
I can't recall ever being this disgusted with our government.
This not only happened at the hands of our government, but in plain view of the entire country.
Maybe all those rich folk went to the Hamptons with Trump for an alibi as to their whereabouts or maybe take a collection for Epstein's "funeral".
Just kidding, this is just an example of the total incompetence of government. I could find a random group of high teenagers to do a better job for pizzas and pop.
AllenS: FTW at 9:16 and 9:26
Bruce at 9:26...I bet even Freder may have cracked a smile at that [but like AllenS said he never laughs]
Kevin's point applies on the local level as well. The people in this thread who are positioning themselves as denouncing conspiratorial thinking are the same people who argued for two years without evidence that the Russians were controlling Donald Trump. And that Brett Kavanaugh led a roving adolescent rape gang through suburbia unnoticed. Remember that in evaluating their judgment.
I guess I'll wait to see what was meant by "suicide watch". We supply sheets suitable for rope nooses for suicide and we don't watch?
This fubar may mean it's lights out too for Mayor DeBlasio's prez candidacy.
While I agree that DeBlasio's candidacy is dead, saying it will die because of something that happened in federal prison (over which he has no jurisdiction) is extremely silly.
Just as big stuff was starting to be reveled... how convent.
Another Clinton threat nullified.
Video coming? Be prepared. Friday, (just yesterday) at DEF CON DNC chair Tom Perez demonstrated how video tape can be "deepfaked"
From CNN Wire
"The Democratic National Committee wanted to demonstrate the potential threat to the 2020 election posed by deepfake videos — clips created with artificial intelligence that can make people appear to do or say things they never did. So the committee came up with a novel solution: It had experts make one, with its chair as the victim.
The deepfake video was shown Friday in Las Vegas at the A.I. Village at Def Con, one of the world’s biggest conventions for hackers. "
https://wtvr.com/2019/08/09/the-democratic-party-deepfaked-its-own-chairman-to-highlight-2020-concerns/
One of the reasons I think Epstein did a Frankie Pentangeli is that this opens up a huge can of investigative worms. In that sense, killing him was a blunder.
If an in-depth investigation is thwarted, we will know that he was probably involved with various intelligence communities who have the pull to cover things up.
Hey, ah, Freder, have you ever laughed in your entire miserable life?
So you are all just kidding about the Clinton's being responsible? If so, that is an oddly unfunny joke.
Michael — I guess you have no evidence that Epstein had dirt on mueller. Just as I thought.
THE WEEK IN PICTURES: TRITE SUPREMACY EDITION
I don't believe the one about Hitler playing video games.
Fernandistein- more libel from a regular commentator. Source?
The walls were closing in so he did the needful, probably with the encouragement of his high powered friends. At least that is the simplest explanation.
I had an offender commit suicide in the Chicago MCC, he had killed his sister and her family, her children, her husband. Then with the assistance of attorneys sold her home and fled. Bodies never recovered. He was in his first night in the MCC on bank fraud charges related to the house sale. Lee Washington....
Fire everyone who came within 100 feet of Epstein since he entered the jail. Guards, their supervisors, warden. Keep going. Psychiatrists, their assistants, cleaning staff, cooks, guy who mows the lawn.
Gone and no pension.
Sure it is more likely to be incompetence. But if so set an example. Don't be incompetent in government service and don't look the other way when you see others being incompetent. If it is something darker then only a wholesale avalanche of consequences "might" deter future participants in same to look the other way.
TW
8/10/19, 9:26 AM
Blogger Bruce Hayden said...
Great picture today in THE WEEK IN PICTURES: TRITE SUPREMACY EDITION that has a picture of Crooked Hillary that says: “CDC: People With Dirt On The Clintons Have 843% Greater Risk Of Suicide”
Except, no doubt, NPR’s Fresh Air will definitively prove that they Clintons had nothing to do with Epstein’s “suicide” as well as that of Vince Foster and Seth Rich. Oh, wait, Rich apparently was the victim of a robbery gone bad, in a safe part of DC, and his valuables not taken.
Rich was left alive after being shot. The most incompetently-executed assassination in the history of conspiracy theories. And while it was not a terrible neighborhood, it was one where residents had been ramping up complaints about assaults and gunplay.
And NPR didn’t claim to investigate the case, although the news division had covered it previously. An NPR-affiliated interview program did an interview with a nationally-known investigative reporter who has devoted extensive time and resources to the story.
{#47}
It’s like Rome.....
This reminds me of the plastic surgeon that hung himself.
As I keep saying, the only realistic world-view is the conspiratorial one.
We live in a fog of secrets and lies, and all that is other than purely personal, and not all of that, is seen only dimly and in parts.
PRESS RELEASE !!
"Now, I have to go back to work on my Give the Clinton Foundation More Money speech. And I worked on it until pretty late last night. But I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again: I did not have suicidal relations with that man, Mr Epstein. I never told anybody to lie, not a single time; never. These allegations are false. And I need to go back to work for the American people. Thank you." -- BJ Clinton
Men are hanged, pictures are hung, no matter what NYTimes and PornHub say.
THEOLDMAN
That might be correct; some dictionaries say to use "hanged" when someone is "put to death" by hanging, which excludes suicide.
The most common form of prison suicide is not a form of hanging, i.e suspension by the neck. It is instead a form of the garrote a strangulation method popular in Mediterranean regions since the Roman empire. Modern jail cells do not have fixtures above the floor that would permit an inmate to strangle himself by suspension. However, inmates have attempted and succeeded at garroting themselves by securing a ligature to something firmly affixed to the wall or floor such as a bed support or a plumbing fixture and then twisting it tight enough to constrict the windpipe. Accused Nazi war criminal Robert Ley garroted himself in this manner with a towel knotted around a toilet before he could be convicted by the Nuremberg Tribunal.
Let me leap out here. 116 comments in. There will be no consequences for Epstein's death while in custody.
"So you are all just kidding about the Clinton's being responsible?"
I can't speak for "all," but I thought it was obvious I was. The tell was "Clinton control laws." Such things don't exist. Besides, it need not be the Clintons. There were any of a number of very powerful people who clearly needed him dead. And he certainly may have killed himself, but please excuse me if I refuse to swallow ALL of the bullshit our government shovels at us. I know from many of your past comments you don't swallow ALL of it.
Fernandistein- more libel from a regular commentator. Source?
Well, it WAS a horrible article. Read it!
Nichevo is almost certainly right.
I certainly don't trust any of your institutions.
Neither should any of you.
Funny how I sat down this morning to write a piece on how unsealed Epstein documents uncovered allegations against more powerful Democrats and instead have to write about Epstein's "suicide."
A lot of the "Clinton Body Count" stuff is stupid confirmation bias, but there are a few core cases that are very strange, and now this is another one.
Remember the Babylon Bee piece: "People With Dirt On Clintons Have 843% Greater Risk Of Suicide."
Funny how I sat down this morning to write a piece on how unsealed Epstein documents uncovered allegations against more powerful Democrats and instead have to write about Epstein's "suicide."
A lot of the "Clinton Body Count" stuff is stupid confirmation bias, but there are a few core cases that are very strange, and now this is another one.
Remember the Babylon Bee piece: "People With Dirt On Clintons Have 843% Greater Risk Of Suicide."
Options:
1. Incompetence with lights on all the time
2. Epstein bribed prison guard
3. Outside person bribed guard to happen
4. Murder
Whitey Bulgar I think was options 1 and 3.
Epstein, I would like to think option 1.
"Rich was left alive after being shot."
Trotsky was left alive after being attacked with an axe. Most people still believe that he was the victim of an assassination.
His name was Whitey Bulger, not Bulgar.
No, stevew, the simplest explanation is that his high powered friends paid someone to silence him, and paid others to look the other way. That is, hands down, the simplest interpretation of events.
The Babylon Bee posted this in November 2017: http://babylonbee.com/news/cdc-people-dirt-clintons-843-greater-risk-suicide
Fernandistein— I was referring to your post on Biden. Please tell me you were joking?
With respect to all the speculation about Epsteins activities and contacts, and their broader significance - all I can say is that absolutely anything is not just possible, but equally plausible.
I suspect that the truth, in the case of Epsteins career, and not just his death, is directly connected to every significant process and institution and system. I doubt there is anything disconnected or untainted.
Your country and culture are run by an amoral and inimical caste. They are capable of anything.
Freder: I was joking about Deblasio chances and you proved AllenS was correct about your lack of humor.
Rich was left alive after being shot. The most incompetently-executed assassination in the history of conspiracy theories. And while it was not a terrible neighborhood, it was one where residents had been ramping up complaints about assaults and gunplay.
Chuck weighs in to defend Hillary but neglects to mention the medical resident at GW who was ordered out of ICU as Rich was admitted alive. I wonder what he would have heard if he had not been excluded from his usual work place? Just wondering.
"He was so important as a person with knowledge of possible crimes by many other people — such important people — the government had an especially strong obligation to keep him alive."
This is, of course, completely true as a matter of good, honest governance, but to actually expect this any longer is kind naive.
The only surprising thing to me is that the first "attempt" failed.
Buyawa: So you would agree it's not far-fetched to suspect Epstein may have faked his suicide and is on his way out of the country to some safe place.
A lot of people know details of what he did, and how. The rich and powerful should still worry. I don’t think Epstein’s death gives them a pass.
Are his young victims relieved today that he’s gone, or upset that justice was not legally delivered? Thoughts and prayers to them today.
What happens next? The evidence collected in the recent searches will vanish mysteriously.
Absolutely anything, yes.
Do you trust official information?
Really?
How do we know he is dead?
Has there been an official statement?
All I've seen, and I am not completely up to date, is reporting tat "police sources say".
I can think of a couple of reasons for pretending he killed himself.
Usg protecting him moving him to a secret facility
Mossad
Clinton's et al
I need to see "the body in the box" to believe.
I expect it will be a private funeral with closed coffin
John Henry
In any case, it's a strong hint to Ghislaine Maxwell to keep her trap shut.
"I guess that doesn't mean 24-hour surveillance, but I wonder what it does consist of."
Good question, and I bet we get no answers.
rehajm: “AOCs feed thinks Trump killed him so Trump wouldn’t get in trouble.”
Of course.
AOC says a lot of things. Thinks? Not so much...
Buwaya, This sort of thing just confirms your theory.
It is just a conspiracy and a criminal one at that.
It has been 80 days since President Trump empowered AG Bill Barr to release the original authorizing scope of the Mueller investigation which began on May 17, 2017. A Mueller investigation that concluded five months ago, and yet we are not allowed to know what the authorizing scope was?…. Nor the 2nd DOJ scope memo of August 2nd, 2017?… Nor the 3rd DOJ scope memo of October 20th, 2017?….
Washington begins to resemble the Bastille.
The Washington Post story on Epstein's death does not have comments enabled. That is unusual. Perhaps they are concerned about providing a forum for libelous comments. In pre-internet days, if a paper published a letter to the editor which contained libelous statements, could the paper be sued for libel, or only the letter writer? Has the existence of internet and comments changed that rule?
I can see LLR Chuck is in a sour mood this morning given the moronic gaffes and lies committed by the 2 most likely dem nominees over this last weekend.
I would think that with so many dems/libs/establishment types caught up in Epsteins little operation the "sudden" and completely "unexpected" demise of Epstein would significantly brighten LLR Chuck's day.
Lets hope that realization of another Clinton threat suddenly meeting their ends up improving LLR Chuck's mood, lest he begins to go after the children of republicans again.
Yancey Ward: "What happens next? The evidence collected in the recent searches will vanish mysteriously."
Has it already been placed on the dresser in Hillary Clinton's bedroom?
After Robert Ley's suicide the commandant of the Nürnberger Justizpalast, an American colonel in command of over three hundred military police, instituted an around-the-clock suicide watch on the remaining defendants. None of them were allowed out of direct observation by at least one MP at all times, even during meals, ablutions, meetings with attorneys, and especially at night. Prisoners were required to sleep on their backs with their arms and hands plainly visible and with cell lights on. Each prisoner was assigned a group of MP guards who watched them sleep through an observation window in the cell door, each guard being relieved every two hours. (Imagine standing to attention for two hours watching somebody sleep!) Nevertheless, Hermann Göring managed to kill himself with a cyanide capsule. It is generally believed but not proven that an MP officer who had conversations with Göring provided the ex-Reichsmarschall, who had been body searched several times, with the fatal poison.
The point of this history is to illustrate that even the most stringently organized "suicide watch" can be deceived, especially if the integrity of the guard force is compromised. The death of Jeffery Epstein calls for the most thorough and openly conducted investigation that has ever been conducted by the Federal government. The fact that Epstein was closely associated with Bill Clinton demands it.
Steve Uhr, a very very big backer of the now fully debunked and exposed Trump Russian Collusion hoax, is very very concerned others will not provide sufficient evidence and grounds for their accusations.
Discuss.
Some great prosecution- procedural-related thoughts on Twitter:
https://mobile.twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/status/1160188170698469376
Hat tip to George Conway’s fabulous, fascinating, delightful, enlightening Twitter feed.
Shortened version; as the sole defendant in his indictment, the federal prosecution of Epstein now ends. But other defendants may be indicted as a result of ongoing investigation. And now Epstein is not present to object to federal search warrants of his homes, safes, computers, offices, financial history and tax documents. He was always going to be a suspect witness. He could actually be more useful to prosecutors as a dead man than if alive.
{#48}
Look, I'd prefer to live in Althouseworld. But out here in the real world, obligations are for suckers.
Indeed, and Althouse is pointing it out. It's not an issue of being Pollyannaish, as you absurdly imply, but a recognition that the inmate was a known suicide threat and was in government custody. The government should have the means and employed them to protect the inmate and did not. As people bandy the idea that this wasn't a suicide; the investigation should begin with those directly responsible for the jail. I think that is Althouse point, and it has nothing to do with the notion that such people would do their job with care.
You can safely bet the discussion over the next few days is who had the most influence over the guards.
Never blame on malice what can equally be blamed on incompetence. There should be a thorough investigation, but I bet we'll find out that they're just as incompetent as dealing with suicide watch as all their other more mundane tasks.
Quaestor: "The death of Jeffery Epstein calls for the most thorough and openly conducted investigation that has ever been conducted by the Federal government. The fact that Epstein was closely associated with Bill Clinton demands it."
Which absolutely guarantees it will never occur.
It's like saying we need a commission on 9-11 and appointing the author of the Gorelick Wall, Jamie Gorelick, to the investigation committee.
It's like saying we need to look into Russian meddling and then making sure only democrats are on the team and specifically excluding any Hillary/DNC/Foreign services activities from the scope of the investigation.
You know, the abused girls are the least of it.
That we know of, anyway. There may well be much worse crimes literally buried in all this.
It may sound callous, but so it is, individuals are abused all the time.
There are probably more young people in dire straits, held by evil people, in any given American city right now than Epstein and Maxwell ever recruited in their depraved careers.
The condition of these girls was just a circumstance for information to leak out into public knowledge.
The important parts have to do with power and its corruption, and the state of your institutions. Do you know who your masters are? The simple rule here is to determine who has impunity.
And here we go, Joe Scarborough already blaming Russians. These guys are so predictable, predictably bad.
"The guards are supposed to be continuously watching.
Who is going to be the scapegoat?"
They are searching right now for the guard who donated money to Donald Trump's campaign, or is on social media wearing a MAGA hat. You know I'm right, don't you?
So Republicans are white nationalists and white supremacists.
Methinks the Democrats are totalitarians. As of today, they are totalitarians and murderers. Which means they are simply totalitarians. Occam’s Razor.
That’s what I’ve been using on my parroting Democrat friends this week when they mention the white nationalism and white supremacy nonsense. I call them totalitarians. They don’t seem to like that, but the shoe fits.
LLR Chuck: "Hat tip to George Conway’s fabulous, fascinating, delightful, enlightening Twitter feed."
George Conway is completely aligned with all the other fake republicans who are clamoring for the entire nation to vote democrat all levels.
All of whom are funded by leftist activist billionaires who know full well what they have purchased.
The good news all around is LLR Chuck's constant pimping of these leftists and their minions persuades exactly zero people, which is a compliment in a way. That means LLR Chuck has as much influence as the hacks at The Bulwark (including deadbeat dad Charlie Sykes)
Interesting observation: leftists like Steve Uhr and LLR Chuck and Freder are not demanding to see any evidence that "Putin did it for Trump!!!!"....they are content to let the accusation sit out there.....
"Micheal K — I guess it isn’t libel if you phrase it as a question?"
-- Actually, given the decision in the Covington Kid case, your sarcasm is technically correct. If you're asking for someone to clarify a position: "Are you a racist? When did you stop beating your wife?" that's fine. Remember, repeating an opinion that the kids threatened him wasn't stating the kids threatened Phillips, so there was no claim to action. So, no. It isn't libel/slander/defamation if it is phrased as a question, per the current standing law of the land.
Leland...got to love the comment on Scarboroughs Twitter feed that asked if his intern got killed by Russians too!!
The most incompetently-executed assassination in the history of conspiracy theories.
And yet Chuck is quite willing to attribute Epstein's suicide to incompetence. If professional prison guards can be incompetent so too can the occasional professional assassin. For example, mob boss Frank Costello was shot in the head at close range by Vincent "the Chin" Gigante and survived. Gigante fucked up that one, but mob experts believe he personally killed at least seven Mafia figures in his career.
Jeffrey Epstein was on Suicide Watch.
Apparently, It's a game show for prison guards.
Quaestor: "And yet Chuck is quite willing to attribute Epstein's suicide to incompetence."
LLR Chuck always constructs the most convenient and favorable to dems/far lefties frameworks for analyzing any event that occurs.
But only always...as in every single time.
He's also happy to simply lie to support the dems as well, as he did with Sen Blumenthal's Stolen Valor lies that were exposed.
"Wikipedia describes her detention and the measures they (the Marines) took to prevent her harming herself."
-- To be fair, the Marines are, generally, significantly more competent than the average prison apparently. A lot of people ought to be losing their jobs for this. It should start with the resignation of the people at the top of the New York prison system all the way down to the guy who was supposed to be watching Epstein and his back up and his shift supervisor. This is a failure which reflects so poorly on their leadership, whoever appoints or hires them needs to demand their head or have it served up. If it really was incompetence.
"And yet Chuck is quite willing to attribute Epstein's suicide to incompetence."
-- In Chuck's defense, I am too -- purely because I know how bloody incompetent government organizations ARE. I still want a thorough investigation, and if it IS incompetence, I expect lots of people to get fired. Remember: We're pretty certain Epstein is a dirtbag. But, he was still awaiting trial. Imagine if he WASN'T a dirtbag. Imagine if their incompetence caused someone who was completely innocent, but in despair, to have hung themselves (this imaginary person is not Epstein).
These people could literally let an innocent person hang themselves. They need to be relieved of duty and command, immediately. The people who hired and appointed them should be held to account for their poor judgment.
But, until there's more hard proof, I'm not going to claim it is a conspiracy. I'm open to that possibility, but incompetence should be ruled out first.
"New York prison system"
Maybe this is covered above: I think it's a federal facility, that ultimately answers to DOJ.
Leland, it's not just Scarborough blaming the Russians....it's a lot of Liberalland!! https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/08/wow-joe-scarborough-and-liberal-cranks-and-conspiracy-nuts-blame-russia-after-epstein-is-found-dead-in-prison-cell/
There was no news yesterday. But today?
"Rich was left alive after being shot. The most incompetently-executed assassination in the history of conspiracy theories. And while it was not a terrible neighborhood, it was one where residents had been ramping up complaints about assaults and gunplay"
Sorry but even professional killers can err. Ken Eto outfit gambler shot twice in the head , lived to testify , Chicago..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Eto
I think that your theory is very plausible. A lot of the richest and most powerful people on the planet would be very, very grateful to someone who could have arraigned for him to be able to take his own life. Remember what the Secretary of Defense said in the movie, Independence Day, "...plausible deniability."
It is this sort of thing that makes me doubtful if we will ever see any repercussions of the coupe attempt. Does Barr have the courage? Will witnesses have the courage?
So far we have nothing from Barr but talk. I’m hopeful but very cautious. Has Barr done anything more than Sessions did? Do appointments (e.g., Durham) equal action?
And there is for me the nagging thought that aside from suspicious deviations from usual agency procedures and some unauthorized leaking to drum up fake news, what actual, provable crimes have been committed by Comey, McCabe, Brennan, Clapper, etc.? In the end charges have to be proven to the satisfaction of a jury.
We all know the Steele “dossier” was a pile of shit but was it illegal? Ditto Mueller’s stupid, laughable “report.”
There will be no consequences for Epstein's death while in custody.
I think the authorities might trot out a scapegoat or two but no one higher than the immediate unfortunates who were assigned responsibility for Epstein’s suicide watch. Deep State is a past master of such things.
What happens next? The evidence collected in the recent searches will vanish mysteriously.
Perhaps they’ll claim they never found any “evidence” of pedophilia by prominent people in their searches of Epstein’s haunts. That way the significant evidence doesn’t have to disappear. Cuomo or DeBlasio will appoint a commission “to look into” Epstein’s death. Maybe even Congress will do something. And that “something” will take years and in the end tell us nothing that isn’t already public knowledge or readily apparent.
Epstein had to be eliminated for obvious reasons. There’s only one other real major thorn in their side; I’m more fearful than ever of a Trump assassination.
Epstein was arraigned on federal charges but was he incarcerated in a federal jail or a jail operated by a more local authority?
Some weeks ago Epstein's attorney called for his client to be transferred to a federal "super-max" prison.
Law enforcement has it narrowed down to ten thousand suspects.
Rich was left alive after being shot. The most incompetently-executed assassination in the history of conspiracy theories. And while it was not a terrible neighborhood, it was one where residents had been ramping up complaints about assaults and gunplay.
Regular readres know I am not a fan of the titty twister. However, the idea of a professional assassin making an execution look like a robbery by leaving the valuables behind, and the target alive is kind of a stretch.
More likely Rich resisted and was shot by a loser who panicked and then ran as fast as he could.
There are some law enforcement commenters here who can verify that street criminals are not among the brightest and are not all cool, calm and collected.
Imagine you just shot a guy, waking up the whole neighborhood who is now looking out their windows. Whatcha gonna do? roll him over and search his pockets while your picture being taken by every cellphone at the window, or get your skanky ass out of there as fast as your feets can carry you?
BTW, Seth Rich def gave the info to wikileaks, duh .
"Maybe this is covered above: I think it's a federal facility, that ultimately answers to DOJ."
All MCCs are federal operations under the jurisdiction of the DoJ.
Gregg Jarrett has spelled out every statute that was violated by the Clintons by the Flbureau et al
Ran this by the wife, who is non-political, registered Democrat:
Fen: Guess who is on suicide watch?
Wife: Who?
Fen: Epstein, the Pedophile Island guy.
Wife: Oh yeah him.
Fen: Guess who just committed suicide while on suicide watch?
Wife: (gives me the look from hell)
But, until there's more hard proof, I'm not going to claim it is a conspiracy. I'm open to that possibility, but incompetence should be ruled out first.
8/10/19, 10:37 AM
The problem with "resisting" legitimate federal authority and trying to smear the President is that you have to take ownership of your fuckups. Even if this wasn't a suicide, the SDNY is going to be raked over the coals for their failure to secure Epstein. $450 an hour attorneys may be arrogant yet gullible enough to think absolutely anyone will buy this, but not even the Hispanic peasants sent to replace the American worker believe it.
Yes, this is a godsend for people seeking to wean Americans from their "rule of law" fantasies.
Yes, this is a godsend for people seeking to wean Americans from their "rule of law" fantasies.
Yep. The response to this should be Chelsea Clinton.
The Epstein case and the Deep State coup attempt are going to be great fodder for mystery novelists, except that the truth is often much stranger (and harder to believe) than fiction.
Who wants to bet that the first novel out will place all the blame at the feet of Trump?
Lets hope that realization of another Clinton threat suddenly meeting their ends up improving LLR Chuck's mood, lest he begins to go after the children of republicans again.
One might wonder if such a person who also repeatedly fantasized about attacking a petite newswoman to "show her how it feels" and who maniacally argued about the origins of a pecan pie should be allowed to own firearms.
How many more red flags are needed?
The NY definition of suicide watch? “We watch you while you commit suicide”
Things that make you go...Hmmmmm.
Rule #1 in the power game; never threaten the Crown.
Qui bono? White supremacists. It will keep them out of the news for a while. So obviously they did it, and by extension, Trump.
This reminds me of a case in my wife's home country. A man with two broken arms was found hanging from a tree in the forest. It was ruled a suicide.
Crimso wins the internet LOL today!
How many more needless, preventable deaths will our nation just stand by and accept? We need to pass common sense Clinton control laws NOW!
The depositions explicitly named Mitchell (who was subsequently middle east envoy) and Richardson, the AP and Times take pains to ignore that, the journal didn't even address the story
From Daily Beast..."He had been placed on suicide watch several weeks ago after he was found in his cell "in medical distress" with "apparent bruising on his neck," but sources told NBC News Saturday morning Epstein was no longer on suicide watch at the time of his death."
Hmmm, not on suicide watch?
"Hmmm, not on suicide watch?"
-- Whoever made that decision should probably be first on the "fire'em all" conveyor belt.
Yes, whoever took him off suicide "watch" should be fired.
Just another Friday night in Manhattan.
"And NPR didn’t claim to investigate the case, although the news division had covered it previously. An NPR-affiliated interview program...."
Am not one of those who have a knee-jerk reaction to the gin-winning commenter's posts-- sometimes they are clever, sometimes they're unintentionally amusing etc etc: but didn't we already have a long episode of 'conversations' about NPR and whether it was or was not responsible for some story? A strong sense of déjà vu here.
The only way out of this, in the end, is the retrenchment and decentralization of the state. All else being equal the best ways out of corruption are to reduce the stakes.
The US government is simply too big, and it controls, through various direct and indirect means, far too much of the economy.
It also almost requires, through various direct and indirect incentives, the centralization of economic power.
There are other states with less corruption and arguably more control, such as Denmark or Finland, but they are vastly smaller.
All I know is that if I wind up on the same flight as James Comey I'm getting off the plane.
Btw the attributions of the shooters motives come from the manifesto, and only excerpts not from interviews but federal authorities
Lol, the fellow duped by the Steele dossier, vouched for a Clinton staffer, knee deep in rissian business, Jonathan winer, while handling the Libyan account tells us about comspiracies
Giuffre's statements naming Richardson and Mitchell are rather obsolete in a direct political sense. Her testimony covers events from almost 20 years ago. These two politicians are old men and long out of power. That happens to politicians.
The more relevant points, I think, are in two parts.
- Those that concern old men who do not lose official power, being as they are not politicians. There are very strong hints about the nature of Epsteins relationships with extremely wealthy people, who are still alive and still wealthy.
- The cover-up, and the question of who knew. Many of these people are certainly still in power.
Someone probably linked this before, but JIC: CDC: People With Dirt On Clintons Have 843% Greater Risk Of Suicide (Actual Article)
ATLANTA, GA – According to a report from the Centers for Disease Control released on Thursday, people with inside, compromising knowledge of Bill and Hillary Clinton’s financial and political dealings are 843% more likely to commit suicide.
“We’ve never seen a single risk factor cause a spike of this magnitude,” a CDC spokesperson told reporters. “Interestingly, in spite of their increased suicide risk, people with dirt on the Clintons rarely show any warning signs of suicide, and they never leave a suicide note.”
Remarking about how abnormal it is, the spokesman again stressed the significance of the data.
“Therefore, we advise any American with detrimental information about Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, or the Clinton Foundation to forget about it as quickly as possible to avoid a greatly increased probability of taking your own life,” he cautioned.
“And—I swear—that’s all we know
High profile people are rarely successfully fired by the federal government, and when they are, they sue and settle based on procedural glitches by the bureaucracy. See the McCabe and Strzok kerfuffles. We’ll end up paying these gazebos to go away, unless criminal charges are brought and sustained.
Julian Assange has been at risk for a very long time.
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