The phrase "Tear it Down" was hastily sprayed in black paint across the base of the golden Joan of Arc statue on Decatur Street in the French Quarter sometime earlier this week. It has since been removed, with only the vaguest traces of the paint remaining.Now, wait a minute! This article is from last May, and the PJ Media article went up yesterday and doesn't mention that the defacing of the Joan of Arc monument predated the current uproar over the removal of Civil War monuments. But there was a "Take Em Down NOLA" movement at the time that — as the Times-Picayune tells us — aimed at the local Confederate monuments (and this group denies targeting the Joan).
The "Tear it Down" tag would seem to relate to the debate surrounding the city's ongoing removal of four Confederate monuments. But the statue of Joan of Arc, a 15th-century military leader, martyr and Catholic saint, hasn't been mentioned in the controversy to this point.
Anyway, who would spray paint "Tear It Down" on a Joan of Arc monument? Do you leap to assume that some idiot believes that Joan of Arc has to do with the Confederacy? Maybe that's how you have fun. At PJ Media, the author (Tom Knighton) does not assume it was ignorance about Joan of Arc. At the end of his piece he says:
It's also possible that this was the result of someone being intentionally ridiculous. After all, while removing statues of Confederate leaders is the big thing, there are also movements to remove a Thomas Jefferson monument from outside of Columbia University and a Teddy Roosevelt from outside of the American Museum of Natural History in New York. So maybe someone is just trolling these lunatics.Yes, that theory fits the facts better than the theory that some idiot thought it was a pro-Confederacy statue.
But it could also be anti-Catholic. Speaking of ignorance of American history, it's ignorant not to know that the KKK and other nationalists have been virulently anti-Catholic. Here's a Wikipedia article, "Anti-Catholicism in the United States."
Here's some KKK artwork from 1925:
You see the tear-it-down enthusiasm.
There are people who would want to take down a statue of a Catholic saint. Quite aside from the KKK, what about people who want the strict separation of religion and government? Why is there a religious monument in the public square?
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162 comments:
Who would spray paint "Tear It Down" on a statue of Joan of Arc in New Orleans?
Why, Protestantifa, of course.
it's ignorant not to know that the KKK and other nationalists have been virulently anti-Catholic.
Don't forget President Ladies' Tee trying to drive Little Sisters of the Poor out of the public square.
There is no alt-left. There is only the idiot left.
Or maybe the person who sprayed "take it down" on the Joan of Arc statue really was that ignorant. The ignorance of millennials when it comes to historical subjects is awe-inspiring to behold.
Burgundian nationalists.
You're digging too deep for answers, Ann. These people just want to destroy stuff.
I'll bet some antifa moron was just tagging every statue in sight.
The tear it down mentality of the Left is just as wrong as the burn it down mentality of the Alt Right / Bannon side.
What makes a monument a "religious monument"?
MLK was a reverend. Can we have a statue of him? Would the answer change if a Baptist splinter sect were to canonize him?
"What makes a monument a "religious monument"?"
That is a subject much discussed on this blog, especially in the context of the Supreme Court cases about removing 10 Commandments monuments.
They're protesting the affirmative action sainthood, with only three miracles instead of four.
"Calls for Removing Native American's Name from School"
"He commanded the Confederate Indian cavalry of the Army of the Trans-Mississippi, made up mostly of Cherokee, Muskogee and Seminole, and was the final Confederate general in the field to cease hostilities at war’s end."
"Why is there a religious monument in the public square?"
Are you joking ? The name of the city is "New Orleans." Joan of Arc is "the Maid of Orleans !"
Yeah, this was not likely some ideologue spraying an anti-Rome thing. Some tiny minority of Americans knows who Joan of Arc was, and they know of her mostly not as a saint, but as a war heroine.
In New Orleans, the statue is a landmark, mostly beloved.
mockturtle is correct: it's just destruction for the joy of it.
Althouse has not spent time among the underclass of NO. It is most likely that Joan was thought to be a Civil War icon of some sort.
Joan of Arc is "the Maid of Orleans!"
The butler did it.
someone being intentionally ridiculous.
My college friends and I marched against the autumnal equinox.
We also reenacted the attack on Pearl Harbor on its 40th anniversary. The death of Caesar scene was an annual event on March 15.
It is just another statue of a white person.
I thought at first the Joan of Arc statue (which someone amusingly informed us is referred to as "Joanie on a pony" by the natives) dated from the time the French controlled the city, but it is much more recent. It is a gift from the French, given to the city in 1958. The city accepted the gift graciously. You can see it as a religious statue (the Freedom from Religion busybodies certainly will and will probably sue to have it removed from public land) - or as simply a reminder of the city's French heritage.
Like mockturtle, I think Ann is overthinking this. I don't give the barbarian who defaced the base credit for knowing anything at all about Joan of Arc. She's a white woman on a horse.
"She's a white woman on a horse."
That's probably it.
Walking around with a can of spray paint is not the hallmark of Deep Thought.
> it's ignorant not to know that the KKK and other nationalists
Not just nationalists, the English Civil War carried on in this country for many years. It was still Paliamentarians vs. Royalists, or Protestant vs. Catholic if you will, and persisted well into the last century.
Burn the Witch ! ...oh, wait.
I suspect King Henry VI. He had motive anyway.
"You're digging too deep for answers, Ann. These people just want to destroy stuff."
Why does the Alt Right speak about "burning it all down"? Do they want to destroy the government? Is destroying the government less destructive than destroying statues, especially statues that venerate Confederates?
What about all the American cities named after saints, Ann? St. Paul, St. Louis, San Francisco, San Diego, San Antonio? Should the names of those cities be changed?
The Soviets changed St. Petersburg to Leningrad. Won't our own home-grown Communists want to do the same?
Not to mention all the towns named after slaveholders - like Madison for instance.
Unknown,
Do you understand the difference between hyperbole and action?
Ann said: "Yes, that theory fits the facts better than the theory that some idiot thought it was a pro-Confederacy statue."
Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".
"Do you understand the difference between hyperbole and action?"
The talk of "burning it all down" wasn't hyperbole. Bannon and the Alt Right truly wanted to "deconstruct" ( destroy) the "administrative state". Bannon used these exact words.
New Orleans has one of the most interesting and exotic histories of any American city. It's French heritage is only one of many components in the New Orleans gumbo. Spanish, English, Creole, Irish, Confederate, Italian, Cajun - it was a diverse place long before diversity was a leftist catch-phrase.
But now we must erase parts of that heritage. The ones we don't like anymore.
I can answer this. We who live in what we perceive as normal American culture have no idea. We are clueless.
At work, I sit next to a militantly race-focused black woman.
She's the reason I removed my "Dont Tread on Me" Virginia license plates. She said the license plates were racist, and that racist people get their "heads cracked open," so I should be careful.
I replaced them with a "Dont Tread on Me" Navy Jack bumper sticker. I figured it might not get me killed as fast.
She's specifically referenced New Orleans over the past few months. This is about Katrina, the racist hurricane. She says that the French Quarter was given money instead of the poor blacks.
She also thinks that that entire area should be renamed for black people, and that the French don't have any rights to the name. That they were white and privileged, took the land while enslaving blacks, and that black people didn't have the chance to name it.
I am not making any of this up. I have to sit next to her for eight hours a day. She hates that New Orleans is so French.
The panty twisting responses to the defacement of various statues is actually comical. You people celebrated "burning down" the government yet overreact to the defacement of various statuary around the country.
@Fernandinande, interesting that they'd include Joseph Wheeler, since he was the overall cavalry commander for the USA during the invasion of Cuba. Gary Busey's scenery-chewing depiction of the man is way off the mark -- Joe Wheeler was small to the point of tiny, though OTOH at the Battle of Las Guasimas he apparently really did refer to the Spanish troops as "damn Yankees."
Well, yes, Joe Wheeler was a successful cavalry commander for the Confederacy, though eclipsed by Nathan Bedford Forrest and JEB Stuart. He and his troops were pretty much all that Georgia had to oppose Sherman during the March to the Sea, but he and his troops were every bit as hated by the civilians he defended as Sherman's marauders.
Interesting factoid. There's a wide spot in the Tennessee River southwest of Huntsville named Lake Wheeler (after him) and three F5 tornadoes have begun at or crossed Lake Wheeler at nearly the same point on Lake Wheeler. Can I interest any of you weather buffs in some lake front properly?
Joan was one of the most famous cross dressers in all of history. This is a blow against transvestites everywhere. If we highlight this part of Joan's legacy instead of her unfortunate habit of praying, I think we can enlist the help of the left in giving proper respect and honor to this monument.
Firing career bureaucrats and eliminating wasteful departments - that's Unknown's idea of violence. The bonehead actually seems to believe that Bannon and Trump were going to literally torch the EPA building.
Unknown Asshole just loves her some Big Government.
@furious_a - "Protestantifa" cracked me up. Good one!
Then the answer to my question is that you don't understand the difference. This is my surprised face.
William said...
Joan was one of the most famous cross dressers in all of history."
You are correct! And she was a militant woman who fought white men!
The talk of "burning it all down" wasn't hyperbole. Bannon and the Alt Right truly wanted to "deconstruct" ( destroy) the "administrative state". Bannon used these exact words.
And I mean to assure you that after living in the suburbs of Washington, DC, from 1969 until 2016, that much of the "administrative state" needs deconstruction. Did it not bother you when Obama's EPA released three million gallons of water polluted by heavy metals into the Animas River, then covering it up and failing to warn the people living downstream?
Or are you in favor of the final extermination of the Navajo Nation?
Yancey Ward said...
Then the answer to my question is that you don't understand the difference."
Unknown takes her spraypaint can to the Althouse comments section and sprays stupidity all over the place, just like the leftist vandals she adores.
" Did it not bother you when Obama's EPA released three million gallons of water polluted by heavy metals into the Animas River, then covering it up and failing to warn the people living downstream?"
I doubt Intelligence Unknown even knows that happened. They didn't talk about it much on MSNBC.
"Burn it all down!" That is destructive, violent imagery and verbiage. The goal of "burning it all down", especially regarding our very own government, is every bit as destructiveand toxic, if not more so, than any Leftist attacking a Confederate statue. The Right isn't innocent here either.
Alt Right Althouse commenters:
Confederate statues= good. Leave them alone.
Our own government=bad. Burn it all down!
The concept broken down as simplistically as possible.
I tell you what, when the right burns down D.C., I will acknowledge you were on to something.
Shorter Unknown: let the EPA kill them effing Navajos!
Don't deface any statues. Take them down and put them in museums. Don't be dumbasses and attack statues that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Confederacy. Don't attack or deface property that isn't yours.
"Joan of Arc is "the Maid of Orleans!""
That's an argument for changing the name of the city.
Also change: Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc.
And the VHA them veterans. Unknown don't need them no more now that they can't fight Barack' Obama's feckless wars.
Intelligence Unknown was asleep in English class when the teacher explained "metaphors."
Slow Joe Biden, who is also as dumb as a cabbage, also has difficulty with the concepts of literally vs. figuratively.
Or else Unknown Bonehead is projecting her own violent urges onto others. She sees the words as violence because when the Left burns something down, they literally burn it. Like the statue of Confederate general Abe Lincoln in Chicago.
A special animus and malice has been reserved for the Catholic Church since the beginning, from before even the time when Christians were blamed for the fire Nero arranged to have set and used as human torches in Rome to illuminate the games at night.
For the modern left -- modern in the sense of the last two centuries or so -- they have long considered the Church to be their number one enemy.
Ann Althouse said...
"Joan of Arc is "the Maid of Orleans!""
That's an argument for changing the name of the city.
Also change: Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc.
8/19/17, 11:08 AM
Sure. Let's erase their history and name them gee, Harmony, Peace, Diversity, Fluffy Bunnyville...
What did angels do to you, Althouse?
Unknown,
Who is this "You people" you are talking about?
Sounds kind of like a "dog whistle" to me.
Also change: Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc."
The Hispanics might have a problem with that...
I am not making any of this up. I have to sit next to her for eight hours a day. She hates that New Orleans is so French.
Jane, I think I'd be looking for another job.
Also change: Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc.
Many of those cities started out as Catholic missions established by Father (Saint) Junipero Serra, who has for years been maliciously smeared by the left.
Joan of Arc is interesting as she was Mark Twain's more serious obsession. While he was dismissive about a lot, and cynical of much more, he had a spot of idealism left, and his efforts to highlight Joan of Arc brought that out as much as anything else.
"Who is this "You people" you are talking about?"
Alt Right. Plenty of Althouse commenters use the very same verbiage as the Alt Right. If you don't want to be associated with the Alt Right, say so.
I think since Lincoln statues, peace memorials and memorials for children forced to fight in war have been targeted it isn't too far fetched to believe it was a mistake. But I won't be surprised if it was a deliberate prank.
Unknown, check the NYT. Even they have walked back the all conservatives are alt right Nazi hysteria.
If there is to be a name change in Los Angeles, it ought to be changing the name of their second baseball team. The Los Angeles Angels, translated as The Angels Angels, is silly.
"Unknown, check the NYT. Even they have walked back the all conservatives are alt right Nazi hysteria."
I didn't say you were, but there are a good number of commenters here who sound an awfully like Alt Right White Nationalists. I understand that there are some here that don't want to be associated with these groups. Distinguish yourselves.
We're now at the demanding loyalty oaths stage of the resistance.
As you think about renaming things, take a lesson from the French:
"From 1789 to 1799, the holiday [Christmans] went underground. Religious services were banned and carols were altered 'by substituting names of political leaders for royal characters in the lyrics, such as the Three Kings.' The anti-clerical laws even affected pastries. In the aftermath of the French Revolution, the 'Galette des Rois' (King Cake) was briefly replaced with the 'Gâteau de l’Égalité' (Equality Cake).... The Christian associations of the old Gregorian calendar were deemed unacceptable... Each of the 360 days was renamed after a seed, tree, flower, fruit, animal, or tool. Christmas was rechristened 'Le Jour Du Chien' (Dog Day) and All Saints’ Day was dedicated to the Goat’s Beard Herb."
The Take Em Down Nola group is marching or parading again today, ending at Jackson Square. Jackson's statue may be safe because it is in Jackson Square, which is part of a national park. But there is a list of demands and streets to be renamed, and more statues that Take Em Down Nola wants removed in addition to the four removed earlier this year (at a cost of over $2 million).
"As Lee turned Traveller’s head away from the house, General Grant came down the steps and started across the yard toward his horse. Grant, too, was in an abstracted state. When he realized that this was Lee leaving, he stopped and took off his hat. So did every other Union soldier in the yard. Lee raised his hat silently, and turned through the gate into the road." From the book "Lee:the last years"
A lot of this strife is on the heads of the Republican Establishment.
When you feed the sharks in your zeal to bash Trump, you enable this evil. And don't think that the left will appreciate it. They can -- and have -- slapped that label of racist, sexist, homophobe Nazi on you too.
Mitt, McCain, McConnell, et al. -- these are the "useful idiots" we were all warned about.
"We're now at the demanding loyalty oaths stage of the resistance."
No, not at all. Those of you who are outraged at the Left for counter protesting and encouraging the removal of Confederate statues because of what they stand for, need to check yourselves when you are all in for the "Burn it all down!" ideology, which comes from the Alt Right. You lump in the entire Left with Antifa or Anarchists, yet you don't like anyone lumping you in with the Alt Right White Nationalists? I understand. A good starting place would be for you folks to stop calling for the destruction of our own government. If you did that little simple thing, you might distinguish yourselves from the AltRight White Nationalists.
Unknown should be Unread.
If the accusations in that rant had any bearing on me, I might give it further response.
"The concept broken down as simplistically as possible."
LOL! Unknown actually got this one right. Apparently, the difference between simplistically and simply is also a bridge too far.
"Unknown should be Unread."
Mockturtle should be mocked.
What's wrong with fundamentally transforming the government, which is what they mean by saying elect different people?
"LOL! Unknown actually got this one right. Apparently, the difference between simplistically and simply is also a bridge too far."
I used the word simplistically because I see some of you as simplistic. Get it? Or are you too simple?
Also, notice how quick unknown went from, I didn't say you were to a full throttle attack in trying to join me to Nazis. All because of insufficiently denouncing of them.
Unknown Dolt, just admit it - you don't know English too well.
It's not going to stop with statues of Confederates who have been dead for over a hundred years. It's not going to stop with wiping off the face of the earth that relative handful of laughable, cartoonish, impotent losers who talk about white supremacy or who have pictures of Hitler on their walls.
And after the impeachment/coup against Trump, do you think it will stop then??
You give one tiny thing to them, it only emboldens them. It only feeds their lust.
"The Los Angeles Angels, translated as The Angels Angels, is silly."
Formally, their name is The Angels Angels of Anaheim.
Silliness abounds.
Mark said...
If there is to be a name change in Los Angeles, it ought to be changing the name of their second baseball team. The Los Angeles Angels, translated as The Angels Angels, is silly."
Their full name is even more silly: The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.
Come to think of it, calling LA 2017 the City of Angels is indeed false advertising. Angels are pretty thin on the ground (or in the sky) there.
Meh. Your explanation does not jibe with the subject of the original sentence, But you're still correct. You did break down the concept simplistically.
I scribbled a sentence at my blog in response to the part of the PJM article I read, yes, presuming that the idiot vandal was in fact an ignorant idiot vandal who wasn't clear about who was and who was not a Confederate (nor did I read the Times-Pic article). 'Fake news', indeed.
Do you leap to assume that some idiot believes that Joan of Arc has to do with the Confederacy? Maybe that's how you have fun.
I don't know that my writing that sentence yesterday was 'having fun' (more 'pained disgust' than 'fun') but I certainly was confirmed in a couple of my ordinary preconceptions by the 'fake news', yes.
Yesterday the Left was simultaneously criticizing people for "What About-ism".
Today, UnknownInga82 is typing "The Right isn't innocent here either. "
Can I borrow a shocked face.
The Hispanics might have a problem with that...
8/19/17, 11:14 AM
Incidentally, I noticed that according to the Marist poll, the Hispanics were even more opposed to the removal of Confederate statues than the population as a whole. I wonder about that. Few fought in the Civil War. Most live in states that were not part of the Confederacy. From an ethnic standpoint, they don't have a dog in this fight.
Maybe they just think taking statues down is stupid.
The Los Angeles Angels, translated as The Angels Angels, is silly.
My mistake. And a BIG one. "The Los Angeles Angels" is actually translated as:
"The The Angels Angels" (of Anaheim)
Mark, they're commonly called "the Halos." It would have made more sense - and would have been more clever - to actually name the team that.
" take a lesson from the French:"
Place de la Concord was Place Louis XV.
During the Terror, it was Place de la Revolution and the Guillotine was there and was used to behead the King and Queen.
We have not reached the stage of the Terror but we may.
The Red Guards are here already and they seem just as ignorant as those of the Cultural Revolution.
UnknownInga82: "I didn't say you were, but there are a good number of commenters here who sound an awfully like Alt Right White Nationalists."
Have you talked to La Raza about this particular problem?
Or the Army of God, Hez b'Allah?
Althouse asks Why is there a religious monument in the public square?
Because nothing in our law says that religious figures -- let alone their images -- cannot stand in public space.*
Stare into the decisis.
_____________
* I deplore the double negative there, but in other words the law tacitly says that religious figures may stand in public spaces.
Unknown not woke. Statues been there for a hundred years. Unknown silent. Not told yet to be affronted, triggered. You have to woke yourself not be woke by others. That is not woke at all. This is just the stupidity of sheep, the laziness of sheep.
Jane wrote: She's specifically referenced New Orleans over the past few months. This is about Katrina, the racist hurricane. She says that the French Quarter was given money instead of the poor blacks.
I speculated on this a few days ago here -- the root cause of all this resentment is reparation anxiety.
Saint Joan is on the side of all that is good and right in the world.
The stunning stupidity of the profs was also on display in Atlanta where they disfigured a peace statue representing a Confederate laying down his weapon. Like most progs I expect they are the poorly educated products of the public school system or grew up in homes without books or were troublemakers from the get go. Dumb asses now plotting against the man pretending to do something meaningful when the meaning of what is in front of their eyes cannot be seen.
UnknownInga82: "I didn't say you were, but there are a good number of commenters here who sound an awfully like Alt Right White Nationalists."
Only in your addled, senile brain, which was full of RUSSIANS! a few week ago and now is full of WHITE NATIONALISTS!
Like a a tired old nag, you allow yourself to be yanked in any direction your masters see fit to lead you.
All this talk about slavery and you leftists have the most unfree minds on these threads.
The theory that seems to fit the facts best is that people thought with the election of President Obama the arc of history was set and the good Leftists were finally going to get their vision expressed through government. The 1000+ more Republicans across the nation in political office, the ineffectiveness of Obama as a leader and the election of Donald Trump were a repudiation of a deeply held belief system (nearly religiously held). Such an intense and undeniable rebuttal of the Leftist assertion has caused many of them to come unmoored.
An honest accounting of the facts that can be observed is a devastating blow to a deeper need. That is why the exercise in Power is so important right now, to some Leftists. If they can show Power it might mean the arc of history still bends their way. A Will to Power might demonstrate the inevitability of their positions.
And here we are.
The native Mexicans of the Southwest were no fans of slavery and quite adamant they did not want it reinstated in their homeland so quite a few of them joined the Union army to help drive the Confederates back.
Michael K warns: We have not reached the stage of the Terror but we may.
The Red Guards are here already and they seem just as ignorant as those of the Cultural Revolution.
The bullies [leftists] are currently winning and their blood lust, as someone else has hinted, grows stronger with every victory. It does not bode well.
Joan of Arc was the original Fearless Girl. Not like the safe-space-seeking snowflakes of today.
The options: 1. Troll 2. Idiot.
Or 3., more intellectually satisfying: a grand convergence of Prot anti-Catholic iconocasm and Prog anti-Catholic iconoclasm, against the popish impostor and Christianist fanatic. 1789 is the real birth year of prog secularist fanaticism, but the smashing of the icons was a Reform specialty, cleaning the slate to purify the faith. Except that the Reformed had fewer illusions about the virtues of the New Man they would create.
Some of the Republican "Hispanics" in New Mexico are descendants of Californios who came to New Mexico with the California Column for just that purpose.
mockturtle said...
"Unknown should be Unread."
I'm an adherent of the communicative principal of stupidity.
Just don't read her in the first place. That way your IQ stays intact.
As a relative newcomer to New Orleans and to the South, I barely noticed the brouhaha over the removal in the dead of night of the first three Confederate monuments or even the removal in May — during daylight and covered live on tv —of the statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee which had been a fixture at Lee Circle since 1884.
But now Take 'me Down NOLA is seeking the removal of 13 more statues in the city, including the equestrian monument to Andrew Jackson in Jackson Square. That is a statue too too far. The Andrew Jackson monument commemorates Jackson's victory at the Battle of New Orleans in the War of 1812 but it has been a particular target of the group because Jackson owned slaves and, as president, was responsible for violently forcing Native Americans off their land in what came to be known as the Trail of Tears. However, the Jackson monument is integral to the identity of Jackson Square (DUH!)—a National Historic Landmark. Without that Andrew Jackson monument we will have lost so much more more than a statue.
Unknown,
"If you don't want to be associated with the Alt-right say so."
The only person here demanding I declare that I am not associated with the Alt-right is you. You seem to think you are a mind reader or you believe that in order to be not Alt-right I must swear some oath.
So in other words if I refuse to say I'm not part of the Alt-right then I am part of the Alt-right?
Sounds sort of fascistic on your part. Then again fascists were borne of the left/socialist mindset.
So Unknown have you said you are against socialist health care on this site? If not then using your logic you would be a fascist.
Why are lefties such fascists?
This game is so fun and easy!
"it's ignorant not to know that the KKK and other nationalists have been virulently anti-Catholic."
First, who the hell are these "other nationalists"? There aren't any.
Second, the KKK, was only "anti-Catholic" in certain areas in the 1920s. The KKK of the 50s/60s and the during Reconstruction was just Pro-white and anti-black.
Third, its interesting the way some Catholics LOVE to think the KKK was "virulently anti-Catholic". Its like some Irish-Americans desperately wanting to think - they were despised and discriminated against (just like blacks). Maybe its projection.
What other immigrant group fantasies about "No XXXX need apply" signs that almost never existed? Do the Swedes or the Germans or the Poles or Italians, do that? Nope, only the Irish. An Irish catholic from Maryland signed the Declaration if Independence. The wealthiest slave owner in South Carolina in the 1830s was an Irish Catholic. Scarlet O'Hara was Catholic - as was Margaret Mitchell! But doesn't stop the "Orish" from claiming victim status.
Yeah, the KKK was after them. Yep.
That's an argument for changing the name of the city.
New Orleans, New York, same principle
Of course, New York was named for James, Duke of York, whose title was named after the English city.
James became James II, an RC who precipitated the Glorious Revolution and the exclusion of Catholics from power in England for 150 years. Own goal!
Joan at least was more successful for the cause of French independence from England, at a small cost to herself.
Maybe, just maybe a lot of people attracted to "tear it down", antifa, whatever have no real clue what they want to tear down, they just want to tear things down. They're just dancing along a shared erotic continuum.
A week later, as I still don't know at all what was actually said by speakers in Charlottesville at the rally that had a lawful permit and court order to assemble. I've seen lots of labels slapped on them by an agenda-pushing left, media and weak politicians -- and condemnations based on those labels. But what was actually said there?
And, a week later, do we know yet what their numbers were? How many were actually there? And how many counter-protesters were there? And how many bystanders?
Is what was actually advocated by one side, and what was also said by those out in force against them, at all relevant? Does what matter anymore? Or is it all about who? And not even a genuine who, but an assigned who.
Are we beyond facts? Do they matter?
The way it was reported, the media would have you think it was Kristalnacht and Nuremburg in Charlottesville. Was that so?
Is it too much to ask to know what really happened?
What do you say Unknown1182 and Unknown8214, you going to call out rcocean for his being an apologist for the Klan? Or is it acceptable since it is against the Catholic Church?
@ Inga
Do you ever get tired of talking to yourself?
Before there was the Klan, there was the Know Nothing Party. Before then, during the colonial period, there was widespread oppression and persecution of "the Papists," including anti-popery laws which prohibited Catholics from worshiping, gathering, voting, etc. Even in the colony of Maryland, which was established by Catholics as a haven for religious liberty, the anti-Catholics took over and tried to suppress them.
"So Unknown have you said you are against socialist health care on this site?"
Oh, she's completely for it.
The stupid bint voted for Jill Stein, of all people.
Unknown said...
"Maybe, just maybe a lot of people attracted to "tear it down", antifa, whatever have no real clue what they want to tear down, they just want to tear things down."
Unknown, "Let It Burn" was a slogan of the Obama years, and implied that the the Establishment, including the federal government, many state governments, and the Academic complex, were hopelessly infested with Left Fascist vermin, and not worth expending any effort to save. Especially since we are fairly certain that our taxes are being wasted feeding useless parasitic trolls like yourself.
Mark said...
"The The Angels Angels"
You can purchase "The The Angels Angels" paraphernalia from the quality retailers in Table Mesa.
Unknown is confusing words with actions.
Are we beyond facts? Do they matter?
Judging from the Times, the Post, and television news I have some very bad news for you.
I can definitely see someone doing this as a way to point out the absurdity of tearing down monuments, because it is something I would do. I wouldn't use spray paint though.
Itchy runs afoul of an Irishman
I'm looking forward to returning to Alaska next summer. I wish I were going tomorrow. Give me moose and grizzly bears any day to this fanatical, leftist hysteria. The purge will only intensify and who among us is safe from its wrath? They have the Deep State and the Media on their side. Is there any hope for our beleaguered nation?
I may take issue with some Catholic doctrines but if ever there was a time for Christians and believing Jews to unite it is now. In the French Revolution those clergy who refused to reject their faith were guillotined. Are our religious leaders of sterner stuff? Every time they bow to the whims of the PC dictatorship they weaken their moral authority. And it's probably as weak right now as I've ever seen it.
Someone was probably being funny... Ignatius J Reilly strikes again!
"Even in the colony of Maryland, which was established by Catholics as a haven for religious liberty, the anti-Catholics took over and tried to suppress them."
Yeah, the poor Catholics- especially the Irish (naturally) - were always being "oppressed" in the USA.
That's why Catholic immigration was forbidden. Oh wait, that never happened. Well, that's why Catholics were denied the vote. Oh wait, that never happened. Well, that's why Catholics were forbidden to hold professional jobs, own land, or be elected to office. Oh wait, that never happened. Well, that's why Catholics were barred from the Ivy League Colleges. Oh wait, that never happened.
20 years after massive influx of Irish due to the potato famine, Irish Tammany Hall was running NYC - but all the poor Irish who came afterwards were "oppressed".
Again, it never the German catholic, Polish Catholics, Italian Catholics, or all the non-Catholic furriners who had a hard time in 'murica. No, it was only the Irish - who were "Oppressed" because they were allowed to come here and flourish. And it looks like some "Orish" have never forgiven the USA for letting them come here.
what was actually said by speakers in Charlottesville
The rally was shut down by the police half an hour before the speakers were to begin.
There was a flyer published with a list of speakers.
Hey hey, hey ho, Hans Christian Heg has got to go!
The only way Catholics may have been 'oppressed' in New England was socially but they wielded enough political power to compensate for it.
I can't believe that the House of Lancaster is getting away with this scot-free.
Democrats...they are right now shutting down a free speech rally.
If you value freedom of speech in this country, NEVER, EVER support a democrat.
Tearing down statues in public places because their symbolism is nonsense when you consider that that our country is polluted shore-to-shore with Ten Commandments monuments.
There's are differences:
(1) statues are arguably works of art bearing no explicit partisan message, while Ten Commandments monuments have the appearance of tombstones that bear explicit and offensive religious messages.
(2) While the statues might well offend our Black-american citizens who make up 12 % of our population, but Ten Commandments monuments offend the 20% of our population composed of non-believers, atheists, agnostics, humanists, animists, Satanists, libertarians and so on.
(3) While the statues at least represent historical figures that are part of our common culture, the Ten Commandments represent unverified communications by an imaginary and fictional figure not part of our common cultural heritage composed of Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and other non-Christians.
(4) The various statues were not mostly sponsored and financed by partisan groups, while the Ten Commandments monuments were almost universally supported by Roman Catholic Knights of Columbus and similar sectarian Protestant groups.
Let's tear down all Ten Commandments monuments and kill off offensive prayers, moments of silence, god-ridden anthems and oaths in our public venues.
mockturtle
For the most part our "religious" leaders believe in nothing but what the mob has compelled them to believe. They have gone along on the false hope that by being woke they will attract more congregants . Only the harder line evangelicals have gained by adhering to traditional beliefs.
"Pope as a malevolent octopus"
Also malevolent octopuses:
Oklamhoma Sate govt
Ho Chi Minh
John Bull/England
Romanism (@wiki)
Chinese president
Aldrich Plan (Federal Reserve?)
Railroads
Trusts
Modernism
"Rockerfeller"
Communism
City of Washington
Russia
Economy
Octopus(?)
Saloons
Iran
Jews
Trump(!Took long enough!)
Socialism
Chinese guy
Capitalism
Regulatory Red Tape
Standard Oil
When The Constitution is over 100 years old, yes, the kids don't know history. Look at the derogatory comments made about Dunkirk.
After Maryland was founded by Catholic settlers in 1634 as a place of religious freedom, including an Act of Toleration in 1649, anti-Catholics seized power and sought to oppress Catholics. Catholic churches were locked up or torn down. Penal laws, such as the 1704 Act "to prevent the growth of Popery in this Province," were enacted forbidding Catholics from publicly practicing their faith, holding public office and voting. Catholic schools were banned and, as with the persecuted early Church in Rome, Mass had to be celebrated in secret in people’s homes.
Throughout the colonies, it was the same. For example, in 1642, the Colony of Virginia enacted a law prohibiting Catholic settlers and five years later, a similar statute was enacted by the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Rhode Island imposed civil restrictions on Catholics.
One of the outrages just prior to the Revolution was the act of Parliament that guaranteed the free practice of the Catholic faith in Quebec, and during the Revolution, efforts to seek an alliance with Canada were quashed because of a lack of trust in those Roman Papists.
Hostilities against Catholics continued in the 1800s, with the growth of the Know Nothings, the social harassment of Catholics, hate speech and scurrilous tracts written against Catholics and the Church by Jack Chick, Thomas Nast and others, physical violence and destruction of property, the enactment of "Blaine Amendment" laws and other measures seeking to eliminate Catholic schools, and more. In an act that sounds like what's happening today, a mob even took a stone that was sent as a gift by the Pope for the Washington Monument and the mob threw it in the river.
And it continued well into the 1900s.
Oh, and by the way -- FUCK THE IRISH, this has NOTHING to do with them. It was and is anti-Catholic hate, pure and simple.
Show us on the doll, jimbino, where Moses touched you.
A true classic liberal would have no problem with god in our public places.
But then you are not a classic liberal.
jimbino. You are offended by a monument? By monuments? How, exactly does it make you feel? Scared? Triggered? Sad? Afraid? Are you over fifteen? Are you male? What the fuck is your problem?
jimbino, show us on the electoral map where the bad orange man touched you.
"Hostilities against Catholics continued in the 1800s, with the growth of the Know Nothings, the social harassment of Catholics, hate speech and scurrilous tracts written against Catholics and the Church by Jack Chick, Thomas Nast and others, physical violence and destruction of property, the enactment of "Blaine Amendment" laws and other measures seeking to eliminate Catholic schools, and more. In an act that sounds like what's happening today, a mob even took a stone that was sent as a gift by the Pope for the Washington Monument and the mob threw it in the river.
And it continued well into the 1900s."
Historians know that the Ku Klux Klan, founded in Tennessee in 1866 by ex-Confederate officers, was created to intimidate black Southerners, especially those who wanted to vote, as well as the region’s ethnic and religious minorities. Since the 1860s, the Klan has spread all over the United States, with chapters in every region, and its targets have expanded to include immigrants, gays, and women who work outside the home. In the 1920s, the Klan grew dramatically in the cities of the North, often in response to the arrival of Catholics from Eastern and Central Europe. Accordingly, the Klansmen in Queens protested their presence in 1927 in New York City.
Donald Trump's father Fred was arrested at a KKK demonstration in which Catholics were being demonstrated against.
Yet the factual evidence seems strong. Trump’s father Fred was arrested in New York City in 1927, when a group of Klansmen got into a brawl with police officers during a Memorial Day parade in Queens. There is a document trail, and the names, dates, and addresses match up. The New York Times published a story about the riot and the seven men who were arrested; Fred Trump is mentioned by name. His address is given at 175-24 Devonshire Road, Jamaica, New York City, and the federal census of 1930 shows that Fred Trump resided at that address. The newspaper does not identify him as a Klan member, or clarify whether he was wearing a Klan robe—as were many of the demonstrators―but he did get arrested, and all seven men were represented by the same attorneys. Two days after the brawl, Fred Trump was discharged from custody, with no explanation that can be discovered from public records. The Times further reported that a police commissioner planned to investigate the Klan riot.
UnknownInga9119
How many generations will the sins of the father be visited on his offspring?
(Assuming, arguendo that all you cut and paste above is correct.)
A Catholic priest in my original hometown in SD was killed by the KKK in 1921. So there was definitely anti Catholic militancy then.
Frankly, I don't know anything about Donald Trump's father Fred. If what you say is true, then we should all march and shout and denounce and tear down any statues erected in his honor and chisel his name off of any structures.
I don't know anything about Fred Trump. What I do know is that John F. Kennedy's father Joe was friendly toward Adolf Hitler and he had his own daughter lobotomized.
Unknown Inga is an asshole. They were marching by his house. That Trump probably got in a fight with some asshole that was pissing/shitting on his front steps. Maybe he was just trying to get into his house and some cop wouldn't let him pass--and arrested him for not following an order to leave. Trump was released without charges. Most of the other men there were charged. There is no confirmation that this Fred Trump is President Trump's father.
Did John or Ted or Bobby ever speak out against their monster father's actions in having their sister's brain cut up? No. In fact, the family abandoned Rosemary to an institution where they did not visit her for twenty years.
You really want to play this game?
?A Catholic priest in my original hometown in SD was killed by the KKK in 1921. So there was definitely anti Catholic militancy then.
Really? So what town was that? Give us a name.
Surely we can't doxx you knowing the name of the S.D. town in 1921. That was almost 100 years ago.
"Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"."
Yes, Althouse is overthinking this. When your worldview comes from social media, a knowledge of history, is unlikely to be in your toolbox.
rcocean -- go burn your cross somewhere else.
When the Left starts calling groups racist Nazis for voting for a disprefered candidate, it is inevitable that individuals will be called racist Nazis on the thinnest of evidence.
Thanks, Mark. You're ahead of the curve.
Town of Lead. Father Arthur Belknap.
If I spent more than the three minutes I did googling this -- which to no surprise you are too stupid to do -- I might even find the names of the exact Klansmen who murdered him. But you and your pals like to wear hoods, cowards that you are, so perhaps not.
"rcocean -- go burn your cross somewhere else."
LOL. Yeah, part of the anti-Orish KKK.
Its been "oppressing" the Irish-Americans for 220 years. And failing miserably.
But they've borne up well. Poor babies. Amazing how they've gotten richer and richer in America. Unlike the Germans, poles, Italians and Swedes - who were immediately accepted by the Proddy-stants.
BTW, i"m reading a book about Joe Kennedy. Typical Irish-American. Rich guy, connected to the Mayor of Boston, class of Harvard '05. But in his mind, some "oppressed" Orishman because the banking elite of Boston didn't give him a job- IMMEDIATELY at age 22. He had to go to Wall street to make his millions of $$$$. Poor baby.
Later, in his millionaire compound on Miami Beach he'd write in his diary about how the Boston Proddy-stants had "oppressed" him.
The Ku Klux Klan hates Catholics.
Founded by disbanded Confederate soldiers on Christmas Eve, 1865, the secret fraternal society quickly transformed into a paramilitary group bent on fighting Reconstruction and the advancement of African-American, Jews and Catholics.
The KKK's decidedly anti-Catholic bent appealed broadly to Protestant America. Philip Jenkins, Baylor University professor of history, writes, "The Klan was above all a Protestant movement, whose events were accompanied by beloved hymns like 'Onward Christian Soldiers,' but its trademark anthem was 'The Old Rugged Cross.'"The KKK's anti-Catholic bigotry sprang from a broader antipathy toward the Church. Historian Arthur Schlesinger, Sr. describes U.S. anti-Catholicism as "the deepest bias in the history of the American people."
Again, Jenkins explains:
Partly, the Klan inherited the very powerful nineteenth century tradition of militant anti-Catholic bigotry, which presented the Church as a vehicle for tyranny, paganism, immorality, persecution and every anti-Christian force. The Klan rehearsed the ancient charges of American nativism about Catholic evils, including the Inquisition, the seditious secret oaths taken by the Knights of Columbus and the conspiratorial nature of the Jesuit order. So much was familiar — but from the 1890s the U.S. experienced a mass immigration largely derived from Eastern and Central Europe, and newer groups were heavily Catholic and Jewish in character.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/the-anti-catholic-history-of-the-kkk
I agree with UnknownInga9119 that all those long-since dead people are responsible for all the bad things those people did.
How many generations before the sins of the father disappear?
Jesus ! Is Inga still going on about the KKK ?
Time for my book. Got a new one today. A biography of John Hay. A very interesting guy.
Inga you should read more.
The masked demonstrators are ipso facto felons in Georgia. The anti-Klan Masks in public law has general application. The Klan had withered away here by the end of the 1950s.
"Like most progs I expect they are the poorly educated products of the public school system"
I know they look like idiots to a normal person, but, no, the are very well educated. Many have multiple college degrees. The current rage of tearing down statues is just a small part of what they have been taught. You spend millions (billions?) training SJWs and expect anything different?
Ann, do you honestly believe that a statue of Joan of Arc is religious?
The anti-Catholic aspect of the KKK was the point of the KKK's existence in some places.
Here in Rockland, Maine, the KKK was active a century ago, and anti-catholic sentiment was the point of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_in_Maine
Shawn Levasseur
You don't have to convince me Democrats were and are bad people.
I plan to go to Liberty Island and remove the Zeroth Amendment plaque. #ColossusMustFall
Thanks to John Kass for this reminder:
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
~ George Orwell. "1984."
In a perfectly green world, everything is recycled.
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