I'm tired of reading things like "President Trump’s astonishing and reckless accusation that he was wiretapped on orders from President Barack Obama should finally be the tipping point in how the country views him and his presidency." (That's E.J. Dionne in The Washington Post.)
From what I've read, "ordered" is the weasel word that allows anti-Trumpsters to make flat statements portraying Trump as out of his mind. But the notorious Trump tweets do not say that Obama "ordered" a wiretapping. They ask if it is "legal for a sitting President to be 'wire tapping' a race for president prior to an election?" and refer to what a court had done. Though Trump didn't precisely say this, any "order" came from the court. He then said "President Obama was tapping my phones," which isn't to say that he "ordered" it. I think the story Trump is relying on is that the FISA court granted a warrant (after some funny business to get around a previous denial), not that Obama just "ordered" it. Then, Trump tweeted that Obama had gone "low... to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process." Trump portrays Obama as doing something, not "ordering" it.
Unless the anti-Trumpsters can speak clearly avoid the safety of that word, I will not trust what they say.
March 6, 2017
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They all secretly know he has the goods on Obama and the administration. It only remains to see who rats them out.
The next story will be about how that rogue AG Lynch did it without letting anyone know.
I hope she has kept her records in some safe place.
LOL - Trump is losing it
DJT claimed that BHO tapped his phones.
“How low has President Obama gone to tapp [sic] my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!”
So, Althouse obfuscation/diversion = fail
Quotes that do not quote is a symptom of post-normal journalism.
That said, the Press has done everything journolistically possible to deny that Obama was ever Chief Executive and Commander in Chief.
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson: "DJT claimed that BHO tapped his phones."
Precisely as Robert Redford did in "Three Days Of The Condor". Same van too.
Why on earth would you believe them anyway? Mendacity is their reflexive response to any situation.
No doubt Obama will trot out his "l only found out about it [wiretapping] when I read it in the newspapers" defense. Remarkably ill-informed for a President of the United States, one would think.
E.J.Dionne? Really?
Anything not according to leftist dogma gives the guy the vapors.
He and Eugene Robinson are the reason the WaPo is only good for outhouse reading.
As it has been pointed out, the Obama administration went twice to the court with an application to tap Trump's phones.
The first time it was denied. After narrowing the focus, the court approved it.
This is not a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" case. The court would not have approved a wiretap if Obama didn't ask for it.
Whether he "ordered" it or "sought" it is a semantical argument only.
Obama bugged Trump. Full stop.
I think what they are hoping for is "plausible deniability".
But after the Benghazi/Video scam, using the IRS as a weapon against his enemies, the tapping of the communications of members of Congress in the run-up to the Iran "deal", as well as monitoring the communications of Angela Merkel, these denials don't amount to jack s**t...
And not to forget that Comey did this "Comey Asks Justice Dept. to Reject Trump’s Wiretapping Claim" and given that Comey is a part of the Justice Dept. he could do that himself so he is begging for help, I think.
sunsong,
Do you have anything to say about the subject or content of Althouse's post?
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson: "So, Althouse obfuscation/diversion = fail"
Hmmm. So the obvious question becomes: Just why did all those NYT/Wash Post/CNN reporters report that multiple federal agencies were investigating Trump/Trump Surrogates and that there were transcripts/intercepts that kept the investigations on-going?
The left is arguing that Trump/Russia collusion is "clear" from all the surveillance that was never actually conducted!
And they don't even have the decency to blush when they do it!
Well Althouse if the pro-Trumpers are going to assert that Trump is a plain-talker who shoul be taken seriously but not literally, you ought to give the same benefit to Trump's opponents, if they are simply addressing the way(s) in which Trump was broadly and popularly understood.
It was Trump alone who personalized the allegation against Obama. There were a hundred other ways that Trump could have more carefully, concisely and accurately made his claim.
You really have no basis to complain about how Trump was interpreted this time. Just look at the Drudge headline from last Saturday! It is exactly what Matt Drudge was trying to communicate! That "Obama" was behind it all!
Hell, this just raises yet another amazing question for the White House: Please give us the specifics on what it was the President was Twittering about at that hour?
1. The FISA court granted an application to bug either phones or servers in Trump Tower.
2. The application was made by the FBI, and signed off by AG Loretta Lynch.
3. Likely, the broad overreach of the taps caught some phone traffic of DJT and/or his associates (like Flynn).
4. Obama loyalists in the DOJ or possibly FBI, illegally leaked some of these conversations to the NYTimes and WaPost.
I have fact-checked Trump and his inimitable twitter account and found his statement to be "Mostly True."
What do I win?
CWJ: "sunsong, Do you have anything to say about the subject or content of Althouse's post?"
Yes she does, and it usually boils down to "pass the mustard, pass the mustard!!" as she doodles in fingerpaints.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. Lots of lefties do it in their safe spaces.
But it does mean that the safe space puppies tend to get a little messy.
Obviously the FBi and others were worried about a possible Russian agent (Paul Manfort?) in the Trump campaign and FISA allowed a tap based on some evidence. Now who ordered it is a question, but given that foreign countries are now sharing transcripts of conversations between the Trump campaign and Russian officials, I wonder what will be made of all of this.
SOmewhere floating around the internet yesterday was an opinion piece called: "Trump not precisely right, but correct in substance; Dems: precisely right but misleading". Why isn't any journalist seeking out Loretta Lynch for a denial?
"lifelong republican" and "golden showers" devotee Chuck: "Chuck said...
Well Althouse if the pro-Trumpers are going to assert that Trump is a plain-talker who shoul be taken seriously but not literally, you ought to give the same benefit to Trump's opponents, if they are simply addressing the way(s) in which Trump was broadly and popularly understood."
Well, it looks like "Dossier"-boy is all about consistency and precision and accuracy and proof.
He's a little late to that game.
Probably, Lynch gave Obama a head's up on the FISA applications. Or, worse, Obama suggested, hinted, that it would be ok, for her to take the aggressive move.
Why doesn't this crack media simply ask Obama directly or ask Lynch directly?
That would be fun!
Peanut Butter,
Regarding Trump's tweet, Nixon didn't "order" the Watergate break-in either.
The Democratic machine's gotta be at DEFCON 2 right now. Folks, including the pundits & politicians, are starting to put the pieces together, & it don't look good for the Obama admin & its large coterie of followers (e.g. its friendly reporters).
Look at this way: Obama staying so close in DC will make it easier for him to be arrested. I'll just be an armored SUV drive over instead of a flight to Honolulu.
Ya wanna think about another corollary of the Dems spying on other politicians? They may have cleared the field for Hillary by taking out potential challengers years ago by a judiciously placed visit by an FBI agent mentioning to a Democratic senator that he needs to be more discreet with his mistress or something might just get out. After all, the FBI did just this under J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover would monitor congressmen & senators & have agents visit them to "warn" them that their indiscretions might just go public if they didn't behave (i.e. vote for whatever allocation the FBI requested). You know what politician laid all this out in an interview? Staid, anodyne, & upright ol' Walter Mondale.
Sunsong, at least you can't lose it because you never had it.
Leftists want to forget Obama's illegal wiretapping of reporters, secret access to reporters' phone records, siccing the IRS on conservatives and many other examples of malevolence perpetrated against Democracy. They also want to forget Obama getting ahold of private documents ordered sealed by a court and using them to drive his opponent from a political race.
You folks laughed a lot prior to 11-8-16. How's that working out for you?
Apparently, the reports about FISA warrants in the NYT, BBC, Guardian, Fox News and a dozen or so others in January are now deemed by the leftmedia in March to be fake news. It is getting to be difficult to keep up with their calumny.
In their haste to circle their wagons around the D.C. swamp, seditious Democrats and their leftmedia pimps are reasoning in circles and losing track of their lies. They are also tainting everything, most particularly themselves.
The latest is another widely circulated report of some new Comey silliness based on a single, anonymous "US Official's" say so. Unbelievable.
roesch/voltaire: "Obviously the FBi and others were worried about a possible Russian agent (Paul Manfort?) in the Trump campaign..."
Oh yes, this "secret" is "obviously" known!
"lifelong republican" Chuckie, who is now Mr. Precision, is probably going to demand you show your work on that one!
R/V: "...and FISA allowed a tap based on some evidence."
More secret "stuff" that R/V "knows". Good sleuthing R/V! Can you share with us your inside info?
R/V: "Now who ordered it is a question,..."
If it happened the FISA court ordered it and the question becomes "based on what, precisely?".
R/V: "..but given that foreign countries are now sharing transcripts of conversations between the Trump campaign and Russian officials, I wonder what will be made of all of this."
Where did these "transcripts" come from? Us? Them? Third party?
Wait a minute, I thought no one was bugged!
And is there some reason I can see that this article is not supportive of the Trump claim (note dateline Nov 7,2016): https://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/
Exactly. We know Obama was probably approved the wiretapping because otherwise his spokesman would not have used the word "ordered".
As everyone knows, President's rarely "order" people to do anything. They usually make sure everyone knows what they want, and then they are informed and "approve" if need be.
And when they do "order" something done, they do usually do it verbally. Did Nixon "order" the Watergate break-in? Did he "order" the cover-up? I don't think so.
It all depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
CWJ,
While that's unclear. It is clear that Nixon was involved in the coverup. So tweeting that "Nixon covered up the break in" would be the equiv.
And, talk about throwing a pal under the bus:
https://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/08/donald-trump-praised-by-former-president-nixon/
The is the denouement for Obama's pro-Hillary coup d'etat that was started on Halloween night with reports from Hillary's team accusing Trump of maintaining inside the Trump Tower a server connected to a Russian Bank.
This was the sole excuse for Obama ORDERING his NSA to hand over all tapped info on Trump's Tower communications that were routinely taken and held in the NSA Bldg on Thomas Street in Manhattan.This lead to the 1-4-2017 NSA security team's shoot out with a CIA infiltration team breaking into that facility seeking that info. Admiral Michael S. Rodgers had been fired by Obama as head of NSA for telling Trump about this wire tapping order.
Mika is right to be in fear of Trump now. Many of her friends will face going to jail.
Did Obama "order" Lerner to go after Conservative groups? There's no evidence of that. He certainly knew of it, and obviously approved of it.
Obama's AG's denial is rather weak also. Just a "see Obama's statement".
given that foreign countries are now sharing transcripts of conversations between the Trump campaign and Russian officials,
So, the "transcripts" are from other governments?
Obama didn't do it? That other guy did. Do you spend a lot of time in criminal courts listening to felons' defense stories ?
Why use some lawerley "narrowly-scoped" language unless Obama was involved in wiretapping Trump?
If it was so C-r-a-z-y, why not a clear, firm, "not under any circumstances" denial?
@tradguy,
The is the denouement for Obama's pro-Hillary coup d'etat that was started on Halloween night with reports from Hillary's team accusing Trump of maintaining inside the Trump Tower a server connected to a Russian Bank.
Do you have a link for this? If you do, it proves collusion between the admin security agencies & the HRC campaign. This is a big deal, if true.
A court would have had to order the wiretapping so the liberals and Obama people are just playing games with words.
Nixon didn't order the Watergate break-in either. What did he know and when did he know it?
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said... "So, Althouse obfuscation/diversion = fail"
Althouse is pointing out the difference between a qualified denial and an actual denial for folks who might not have the distinction. She is not obfuscating or diverting. If I get your meaning.
3rd grade,
Be honest for a minute (I know - just humor me.)
Considering Obama's history with this type of occurrence (everything from unsealing the Ryan divorce records, to secretly reading Rosen's emails, to the secret investigations of AP reporters, to the IRS actions against conservative groups, to his "jokes" about using the IRS against his opponents), and the FISA requests, what do you think is the most likely scenario?
That Trump is wrong about this, or that the Obama admin was eavesdropping on Trump and staff?
Drago I was always about clear language. Which is why I have never respected Trump.
And why I have always been mystified by Althouse's strange tolerance of Trump's countless abuses of plain English, in addition to his abuses of plain facts.
It's odd that actions done by his administration so rarely seem to be the fault or responsibility of Obama. He learned of all poor behavior in the media --- including Hillary's server that he sent emails to under an alias.
Armitage discusses Plame as a CIA agent and it's Bush's fault.
Guess more of that soft bigotry of low expectations.
And not to forget that Comey did this "Comey Asks Justice Dept. to Reject Trump’s Wiretapping Claim" and given that Comey is a part of the Justice Dept. he could do that himself so he is begging for help, I think.
Keeping a single Obama person is a mistake. Trump should fire all of them and claim that the Congress has zero right to control how the Executive handles staffing decisions, ignoring civil service laws in the first place.
Congress should have the power to handle how the Congress treats it employees, but not the other two branches.
It was Trump alone who personalized the allegation against Obama. There were a hundred other ways that Trump could have more carefully, concisely and accurately made his claim.
If Trump had a FISA request to monitor a Democrat --- would anybody name the actual person who made the request?
No...because, in the end, EVERYTHING done is at the President's request. The earlier FISA requests could've been killed off had Obama made that request, which indicates he, BARE MINIMUM, approved of them.
Obviously the FBi and others were worried about a possible Russian agent (Paul Manfort?) in the Trump campaign and FISA allowed a tap based on some evidence. Now who ordered it is a question
Their Executive Branch agencies. Obama is responsible for all of their decisions.
Was anybody FIRED for issuing them?
Punished?
Did Obama demand they be stopped?
No?
Then it's Obama's responsibility.
That's what happens when you become President.
Yes, the guy who tapped communications of reporters cannot POSSIBLY have done the same to political rivals...
Consider if Trump had written that Obama tapped his phones and someone responded with a minute by minute timeline proving Obama couldn't have been in Trump Towers planting the bug himself. People who find this sort of thing compelling are demonstrating their bias, nothing more.
"lifelong republican" and "golden showers" guy Chuck: "Drago I was always about clear language. Which is why I have never respected Trump."
If you had ever shown the slightest reluctance, at all, to buying in to each and every democrat meme/false narrative regarding Trump and anyone who voted for Trump you would have more credibility above your current credibility rating of "zero".
But as a Moby, why would we expect that you would?
hombre,
The denial is based on the claim by DJT. DJT claims that BHO wire tapped his phones. The way that BHO would do this is from his position as POTUS where he has people do things for him. These directions where ordered by the POTUS, according to DJT's claim.
A litteral interpretation of DJT's claim would be that BHO, himself, installed the tap.
So, maybe y'all want a denial where BHO, in addition to denying that he had others instal the tap, he denies that he himself also didn't do it, personally, as DJT's claim literally states.
Still trying to translate Trump's statements, I see.
Drago everyone is bugged what do you thing the role of NSA is? The only question becomes when is more information needed and when can the information be used in a legal sense, hence the need for FISA.
Drago everyone is bugged what do you thing the role of NSA is? The only question becomes when is more information needed and when can the information be used in a legal sense, hence the need for FISA.
And who's admin made the request?
As has been said, Hitler never PERSONALLY called for a Holocaust, either.
Obviously the FBi and others were worried about a possible Russian agent (Paul Manfort?) in the Trump campaign and FISA allowed a tap based on some evidence. Now who ordered it is a question
Isn't that convenient! Postulate that the opposition may have contact with a foreign power & then the security agencies get to monitor away! Wheeeeeeeeee! What fun!
And when the security agencies leak or pass info to the other party, what then?
I'll agree to this if & only if everyone in the chain of command & execution agrees that if they find no proof of foreign intervention, that we can take them out to Lafayette Square & publicly break them on the wheel one by one. "Oooops, Sorry!" doesn't cut it here.
Trump is going to kick some liberal butts and I'm going to enjoy.
"Trump needs to fight back. The Democrats and their support staff in the media (and their cheerleaders in academia) have declared war on Donald Trump. He needs to respond in kind. I know he is busy about the nation's business. But he cannot allow himself or people in his administration to be treated like a dartboard by his opponents. The darts must be fired back, and hard."
https://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2017/03/04/peace-through-strength/
Diagraming the sentence identifying the weasel word. All that President Hillary preparation we did is paying off!
I've read numerous claims that FISA received this request in October and denied it, then received a second request (in January?) and approved it.
I'm really curious:
1. Where this is coming from
2. If FISA actually denied a request, as my understanding is the FISA court rejection rate is pretty much nil - one of the reasons FISA is considered problemtatic.
Blogger Chuck said... "Well Althouse if the pro-Trumpers are going to assert that Trump is a plain-talker who shoul be taken seriously but not literally, you ought to give the same benefit to Trump's opponents, if they are simply addressing the way(s) in which Trump was broadly and popularly understood."
Oops. Lefty logic, lifelong. That doesn't follow at all. Besides, most people are smart enough to understand the "on Obama's watch" implication. I don't know if there were FISA warrants for Trump, et al, but I remember enough from my law enforcement days to surmise that Loretta would not have gone for them without the boss's knowledge. Even Loretta is not that stupid.
The whole thing got started because some employee of a web company was trawling through the logs searching on Trump, misinterpreted what he found, and created a whole story about secret comms with a Russian bank, using Trump in the domain, of course, and a credulous and biased press lapped it up, and somehow opportunists parlayed it into a FISA order.
It's kind of telling that Democrats are now denying that they ever made claims based on "transcripts" that they made on record.
roesch/voltaire: "Drago everyone is bugged what do you thing the role of NSA is?"
So now we are back to Trump being correct again!
The lefties just can't make up their minds.
Lets summarize the lefts position and incorporate R/V's latest genius-level submission: Trump obviously colluded with the Russians to throw the election based on surveillance and intercepts (for which we have transcripts!!) that never actually happened but oh yes they did cuz "everyone" & NSA.
Thanks R/V.
Maybe it's time to simply put all the dem/MSM (but I repeat myself) claims about having transcripts and intercepts which indicate Trump collusion with Russia right next to those same dems claiming none of those transcripts/intercepts/evidence exists.
We could start with Sen Coons.
I categorically deny THAT I GAVE A WRITTEN ORDER TO THE DOJ TO GET A FISA WARRANT TO TAP PHONES/SERVERS AT TRUMP TOWER THAT, REASONABLY, WERE EXPECTED TO CAPTURE COMMUNICATIONS BY THEN-CANDIDATE TRUMP, AND THAT, SUBSEQUENTLY, WERE TACTICALLY LEAKED TO THE PRESS.
I deny all that.
-- Ex-President Obama through a spokesman.
Sufferin' succotash!
EJ Dionne is using weasel words!
@ Young Hegelian...Google it. The shoot out happened. Admiral Rogers was fired for talking to Trump the week after the election.
The thing Sessions did wrong was not string this out longer as DJT played his hand. He could always Recuse his worthless ass later. Now DJT has had to go all in and call before he bluffed the Dems into putting raises to their bets down.
http://i.magaimg.net/img/65d.jpg
No evidence of wiretapping?
I'm sure that Obama knew from history that Nixon was forced to resign after the smoking-gun tape was exposed, i.e., http://watergate.info/1972/06/23/the-smoking-gun-tape.html
So, it is plausible that once the Russian/Trump campaign meddling in the election came to President Obama's attention, he decided for the sake of the country to eavesdrop on Trump and his people to obtain the smoking gun of collusion with the KGB in the off chance that Hillary lost. If Obama authorized the wiretap, was it a criminal or a patriotic act to spare the country a corrupt Trump presidency? I would suggest that it was the latter. After Trump is ousted, one can imagine that Obama's face will be carved into Mount Rushmore.
TreeJoe: "I've read numerous claims that FISA received this request in October and denied it, then received a second request (in January?) and approved it."
Your timeline (based on reports) is incorrect.
Initial FISA court request supposedly last June and denied.
Initial FISA court request supposedly "reworked"/"narrowed" (assuming Trumps name was deleted) and second request to FISA court in October approved.
Reports that the October request is still active and ongoing.
Now dems are saying: What FISA court requests? Just because we based 9 months of "hit job" reports against Trump using the reported products of that surveillance that we now claim doesn't exist doesn't mean we aren't totes full of journalistic integrity!
"So, it is plausible that once the Russian/Trump campaign meddling in the election came to President Obama's attention, he decided for the sake of the country to eavesdrop on Trump and his people to obtain the smoking gun of collusion with the KGB in the off chance that Hillary lost. If Obama authorized the wiretap, was it a criminal or a patriotic act to spare the country a corrupt Trump presidency?"
-- Both. It could be both. Unfortunately, it is NOT plausible, as if Obama had proof of Trump doing something illegal, he'd have used that weapon during the election. He made up crimes to accuse Romney and McCain of, and you think if he had completely perfect evidence of wrong doing by Trump, he'd sit on it?
Now, I know that this poster is most likely a troll/novelty account, but it is a serious question for people who think Obama has evidence of illegal activity done by Trump.
Why did he wait to use it? There's no logical reason for this action save some variant on the following: Obama TRIED and FAILED to get this data, either because it does not exist, Trump is innocent or hid it better than could be searched for OR Obama never tried to get it.
n.n said, "Quotes that do not quote is a symptom of post-normal journalism."
True. There's an awful lot of passive voice going around. When I was in school, our teachers said to avoid it. Now everyone's doing "It is said" all over the place. It is said that Trump once fucked a dolphin on a bet. So 'twas said.
The argument is sort of like denying that Hitler ordered the invasion of the Soviet Union because the actual operational orders came from the German Army HQ(OKH).
Its an absurd attempt to deceive.
Trumpit: " If Obama authorized the wiretap, was it a criminal or a patriotic act to spare the country a corrupt Trump presidency? I would suggest that it was the latter. After Trump is ousted, one can imagine that Obama's face will be carved into Mount Rushmore."
(backing away slowly while whistling softly)........
@Tradguy,
Google it. The shoot out happened. Admiral Rogers was fired for talking to Trump the week after the election.
That's not what I asked you to link to. I asked if you had a link to the Halloween message from the Clinton campaign. What happened after the election I know about & I know sources.
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said... "hombre, ... A litteral interpretation of DJT's claim would be that BHO, himself, installed the tap."
Even if that were so, that would be a ridiculous interpretation, wouldn't it? The more appropriate interpretation is that Obama's Administration wiretapped him with Obama's knowledge.
Obama doesn't have any hands on for most of the good things that occur on his watch, but the media and the Dems give him credit anyway. They also isolate him from the bad things. Trump is not required to do that, hence, "Obama wiretapped me."
Bob Ellison"n.n said, "Quotes that do not quote is a symptom of post-normal journalism."
True. There's an awful lot of passive voice going around."
In one of my more interesting client engagements (in NYC) the entire organization mode of discussion was never to put anything in the active voice.
Every topic had to be approached in the manner of "it has been suggested by some that....."
hombre: "Even if that were so, that would be a ridiculous interpretation, wouldn't it? The more appropriate interpretation is that Obama's Administration wiretapped him with Obama's knowledge."
Hey, remember when Obama claimed to be "really good at killing people"?
Remember how the left and "lifelong republican" Chuck criticized obama for his lack of precision and accuracy?
LOL
Let's be honest, the first time Obama heard of so many of the bad things in his administration came from the television, that I'm surprised if he ever ordered anything until it was determined a popular success.
Defenses to a fall-in-a-hole case: (1) there was no hole, (2) it wasn't my hole, (3) you didn't fall in the hole, (4) the hole was open and obvious, and (5) the hole wasn't very deep so you couldn't have been hurt bad.
Defenses to Trump's accusations: (1) there was no tap, (2) Obama had nothing to do with the tap, (3) the tap was really no big deal, (4) a FISA court ordered the tap (and we all know what paragons of due processs they are), and (5) shut up, you racist, and check your privilege.
"Drago I was always about clear language. Which is why I have never respected Trump."
That's funny, because Trump's statements are clearer than the great majority of politicians' statements, because he doesn't try to put everything in Lawyer talk. (aka weasel words.)
Who the fuck is "we", Drago?
Has the Althouse blog turned into a kind of fan-site message board for the Trump crowd? Maybe so; I don't know. But to can't find a single anti-Republican or anti-conservative policy statement from me anywhere in any of the thousands of comments pages of this blog.
I criticize Trump because he is so rude, and ignorant, and dishonest, and even sociopathic. I distrust Trump because he has no real history as a principled conservative, and because he's never been a good spokesman for any interest apart from his own self- interest.
That's all. You can continue with your baseless, enraged personal attacks on me. I don't care. I am not interested in selling myself to you or anyone of like mind. I am just going to stick with what seems right to me and see what happens.
"EJ Dionne is using weasel words! "
EJ Dionne is a Quisling Catholic.
"The more appropriate interpretation is that Obama's Administration wiretapped him with Obama's knowledge."
No, because the tweet doesn't put BHO in a passive roll. DJT directly accuses him, not his administration.
And, btw there's still another problem, the anti-BHO folks are claiming that the FBI tried but failed to tap DJT's phone (although there's some question re DJT being "named"). So, literally nobody is saying anybody successfully tapped DJT's phone, except DJT.
BTW, is it just me, or does it seem like DJT should make public the facts that resulted in him tweeting that BHO tapped his phone?
Is that asking too much? Or, is not expecting that asking shamefully too little?
Are there any DJT supporters here who agree it's a little odd that he (and/or his spokes people) haven't done this?
Are y'all thinking that he's holding back to protect our national security and intelligence assets? Or, is he going to release the proof that BHO tapped his phone after his adversaries deny that BHO tapped his phone? Like a deal art thingy.
Second line of inquiry, are folks here becoming more and more convinced that there may be something to the theory that DJT tweets crazy on Saturday because Ivanka and Jerrod aren't around to stop him?
As for weasel wording about Obama, the truth is Obama never ordered Trump's wires tapped. He just demanded to read all of their recorded Trump Tower communications that the NSA always captures, as they always do from everyone in the USA. Then he salted the intelligence agencies with the communications with a new Low Classification status.
The trick has been selective release to the Obama's Media discussions with all context withheld.
DJT had better be careful for the next 6 months. Assassination is all the Obama Owned CIA has left to cover up their years of crimes.
>>>He then said "President Obama was tapping my phones," which isn't to say that he "ordered" it.
At this point, Althouse, I think you need to ask whether you're really being "cruelly neutral" here. If Trump doesn't mean "ordered" here, what does he mean? That Obama literally snuck into his campaign offices, wearing the most famous face in the world, and inserted a bug into his phones personally?
Why is Trump in hiding today? Well, can't say I blame him.
"Drago said:
The left is arguing that Trump/Russia collusion is "clear" from all the surveillance that was never actually conducted!"
Well said.
And the mainslimemedia is melting down and the meltdown is hitting more sensitive people like Mika of Morning Joe who is ominous and fearful on the show, indicating that she is hearing ominous and fearful rumors such as that people don't believe what the media says. But what she hears is rumor ricocheting in a small circle.
Here's what would be a very fearful rumor: That there was going to be no improvement in the job situation, no improvement for coal miners, no pipeline jobs, no fracking jobs, no improvement in business regulation, no improvement in Obamacare and no improvement in schools. Because for some reason Trump is going and because for some reason Hillary is coming or Obama is coming back. If that rumor starts, be afraid.
But I don't expect that rumor. I expect a lot of Obama people suddenly out like the airline controllers or something like that.
As the saying goes, "what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
The amount of attention his ridiculous tweets gets doesn't surprise anyone--hey, it sells copy and is clickbait.
But calls to respond to his Twitter assertions as though they are serious and it's on us to "fairly" disprove them?
Sad!
"At this point, Althouse, I think you need to ask whether you're really being "cruelly neutral" here. If Trump doesn't mean "ordered" here, what does he mean? That Obama literally snuck into his campaign offices, wearing the most famous face in the world, and inserted a bug into his phones personally?"
Exactly! Maybe she thinks Obama dressed in all black snuck into Trump Towers some dark night.
Again, I remind the rational commenters here that Obama started his national career by leaking divorce documents of his opponent Jack Ryan (married to a Hollywood actress Jeri Ryan). The sealed court documents were somehow "provided" to Obama who used them to smear Mr. Ryan using wild claims made by his estranged wife during their messy divorce.
Who got them unsealed? We don't know. The press is never very curious how Dem Deus ex machina happen -- they just write what helps their side. It is funny to see Press corp running in circles to protect Obama now.
Last month: We know Trump is the Russian's puppet! We have the wiretaps.
This month: What wiretaps? Trump is crazy!
@Unknown,
Why is Trump in hiding today? Well, can't say I blame him.
You're kinda unclear as to what's happening here, aren't you?
You know that scene in Star Wars 1 where Luke, Lea, Hans & Chewy are trapped in the garbage compactor room on the Death Star when the walls start closing in? That's what's happening to your team, except a lot more slowly.
Let's see, you may be a seditious Democrat or a duplicitous leftymediaswine if you claim to believe that:
Comey would seek permission from his masters at DOJ to deny that his agency went after wiretaps on Trump and/or that he and his masters at DOJ would seek to wiretap a presidential candidate from the opposing party without advising the sitting President, that is, Obama.
That may seem convoluted, but this whole Trump/Russia/wiretap meme is convoluted.
traditionalguy said...
@ Young Hegelian...Google it. The shoot out happened. Admiral Rogers was fired for talking to Trump the week after the election.
About that shoot out. I would think that a running gun battle between two branches of the U.S. government on U.S. soil would be front page news. Above the fold. Large type. With demands for investigation and explanation. What do we have?
Crickets.
Yes NSA listens in on everyone whether it is ordered by the President or not a a matter of National security-- have you not paid attention to Wiki or Snowdon? Trump's claim is it happened to him and his organization under President Obama's watch but not order? So what is the big deal? Nothing to hide here. Right?
"There’s a special top secret Federal court that handles such sensitive warrant requests, which are issued under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, which allows for intelligence gathering against foreign spies and terrorists. They key words in FISA are the first two: foreign intelligence. Warrants are only issued against foreign targets which are deemed to be plausibly involved in espionage or terrorism against the United States.
However, Americans who call or email those suspicious foreigners may appear in signals intelligence collection, although under FISA their identities are concealed in SIGINT reports in a process the IC terms “minimization.” In other words, your civil liberties as an American do not include the right to communicate with foreign bad guys without possible monitoring. Keep in mind, though, that under FISA the people being targeted are foreign spies and terrorists, not Americans." wrote former NSA here:
http://observer.com/2017/03/kremlingate-donald-trump-russia-white-house-bugged/
Blogger sunsong said...
LOL - Trump is losing it
Because if it's true it would be really, really, bad, right?
This reminds me of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. The pundits on TV wouldn't even allow the subject of the blue dress to come up. It was just too much. Such terrible lies couldn't be discussed on their programs.
Then, as soon as it was a known truth it became no big deal.
Watch how quickly the pundits and sunsong go from, "Trump is nuts! This accusation is just so crazy!"
To, "So what if he tapped Trump? It's no big deal. Look over there! Squirrel!"
Unknown: "Why is Trump in hiding today? Well, can't say I blame him."
Which forest is Hillary aimlessly wandering thru today?
I'm on the fly../ anyone listening to Rush today?
He mentioned some NYT guy named Michael Schmidt (or smith?) who - back in January wrote an article about Trump being under surveillance for his suspected Russian ties.
Today? - same NYT dude says it's crazy to suggest that Trump was being spied on.
I'll leave it to others to dig it all up.
Peanut butter,
Wow, you really twisted yourself into knots to frame that reply to me.
"I'm surprised if he ever ordered anything." As we all know, O only ordered one thing during his whole presidency, and that was the Bin Laden hit. That, and pizza for dinner in Hawaii, but I'd have to check my sources on that one.
BTW, is it just me, or does it seem like DJT should make public the facts that resulted in him tweeting that BHO tapped his phone?
He may be waiting until all the fools, like you, have placed their bets. Remember, he ran casinos for years.
You don't turn over your hole card until all the bets are down.
eric: "To, "So what if he tapped Trump? It's no big deal."
R/V is already rolling that one out today and another lefty is basically saying that yeah, obama surveilled Trump and he was a patriot for doing so!!
Personally this is where I think most of the left will come down: Yes obama wiretapped Trump and he was right to do so but no evidence of collusion was found 'cuz Trump hid the evidence and besides, borscht!!!
The POTUS has all the power, and appoints all the people to do his or her bidding.
That's why the POTUS is guilty of all of the sins of his or her underlings.
Jeez, you'd think people didn't have to be reminded of this after Watergate and all.
It was Trump alone who personalized the allegation against Obama.
Funny how everything that happened between 2001 and 2008 was Bush's fault, down to the bad evacuation process feebly attempted by Democrat New Orleans bureaucrats. EVERYTHING was Bush's fault. On the other hand, Obama was never responsible for anything bad in his two terms. The Media-DNC spent all their energy trying to paint him as a bystander to crisis, and yet he magically made the "gutsy call" to kill Osama bin Laden.
Like the reappearance of homelessness and the national debt, we now have the reappearance of personal responsibility being vested in Trump. Goose/gander, Chuck. Your real complaint is that Trump can go around the DNC-Media complex and get his talking points out there and into the national discussion, despite, not because of, the media weenies.
"Today? - same NYT dude says it's crazy to suggest that Trump was being spied on."
Instapundit has a link.
Wrong.
"Last month: We know Trump is the Russian's puppet! We have the wiretaps.
This month: What wiretaps? Trump is crazy!"
False narrative, most rational people still believe Trump and associates have been caught on intercepts doing illegal dealings. That Obama ordered it personally is what rational people are pushing back against.
roesch/voltaire: "Yes NSA listens in on everyone whether it is ordered by the President or not a a matter of National security-- have you not paid attention to Wiki or Snowdon? Trump's claim is it happened to him and his organization under President Obama's watch but not order? So what is the big deal? Nothing to hide here. Right?"
LOL
So, lets all try to keep up with our lefty and "lifelong republican" pals, shall we?
Lefties and "lifelong republicans": Yes Trump was surveilled because he is a dirty rat colluder with Putin except no surveillance was actually conducted but yes it was cuz "everybody" so no big deal but Obama is a patriotic hero for surveilling Trump and should be on Mt Rushmore!!!
This is going to be like how Obama didn't order the IRS to silence Tea Party groups, isn't it?
There's no doubt candidate Trump was bugged by the US Government.
The questions are:
1. Was it done legally pursuant to a warrant? (Probably Yes, a FISA warrant).
2. Who ordered it? (AG Loretta Lynch certainly had to sign off on it).
3. What was the purpose? (Twofold: (1) Proper: To look into some mischief by a few Russian banks, and (2) Improper: to hopefully "stumble upon" some political intrigue by Trump and/or his campaign team to leak and thwart the election.
Guess what? It didn't work.
For those keeping score, here's the scoreboard to date:
Presidency
House
Senate
Supreme Court (soon)
Governorships
State Legislatures
Mika Brzeskinski crying on MSNBC
v
Michael Flynn's scalp
Jeff Sessions recusal
Oh boy oh boy! It is time for an over-under on how many NSA/FBI bureaucrats take the 5th in front of congress. I am going to say 100 before the American People start getting bored and people start going to jail.
Then the reporters who printed leaked SIGINT material will be discussing sources. Printing transcripts of phone calls between the president and heads of state?
Remember there is no more "Executive Privilege" anymore. Holder was held in contempt. Maybe it is time to drag his ass back in front of the investigative committees since he doesn't have Obama stonewalling the investigation for him. It is time the cover was thrown off the DC slime pit and the people of the country saw who was lording over them.
Apparently, the way you want us to read it, Trump is contending Obama personally installed the wire tap.
And the source of this whole kerfuffle is one story based on two anonymous sources that appeared back in November claiming that there were two FISA warrant requests, one denied and another approved. Comey and Clapper (one or both of whom would have known about any such FISA warrant) have said there weren't any such warrants, casting the original story into serious doubt.
Wasn't it just last week that Trump was criticizing the press for using anonymous sources.
"Then the reporters who printed leaked SIGINT material will be discussing sources. Printing transcripts of phone calls between the president and heads of state?"
-- If the reporters don't have clearances, you can't really beat them up for publishing things leaked to them. The people DOING the leaking though...
Furthermore, if Trump and associates did act as "agents of a foreign government" to meddle with an election, it is illegal, a crime. No President is above the law, even your precious Trump. Whoever ordered the wiretap, they are the heros in this story.
Unknown: "False narrative, most rational people still believe Trump and associates have been caught on intercepts doing illegal dealings."
LOL
What intercepts? What are you talking about? There are no intercepts, no transcripts showing anything!
Man, Unknown is always at least 36 hours behind the other lefties in talking point distribution.
It's getting a bit embarrassing because I would think Althouse blog would rate a better quality of voice-actuated lefty troll.
I'm afraid I am unable to hide my bitterness at Soros over this Althouse directed slight by the lefty astroturf brigade.
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson (that's difficult to copy/paste), I agree that Trump should put up or shut up. There cannot be any national security risk in doing so; that's a false defense. He's probably got something and should show it, or nothing, and should admit it.
Liar's poker here.
@Unknown,
most rational people still believe Trump and associates have been caught on intercepts doing illegal dealings
If "rational people" means clueless lefty buttfuckers who can't follow facts or logic, then, yes.
In case you haven't yet heard, a Republican & a Democratic Senator went on the news programs on Sunday & said they've found no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion by the Trump campaign with the Russians.
Unknown: "Furthermore, if Trump and associates did act as "agents of a foreign government" to meddle with an election, it is illegal, a crime."
If you murdered someone last night, it is illegal, a crime.
I hope you are aware of that because I can assure you that Angela Lansbury is.
There's no doubt candidate Trump was bugged by the US Government.
And you base this assertion on what exactly?
Ya wanna think about another corollary of the Dems spying on other politicians? They may have cleared the field for Hillary by taking out potential challengers years ago by a judiciously placed visit by an FBI agent mentioning to a Democratic senator that he needs to be more discreet with his mistress or something might just get out. After all, the FBI did just this under J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover would monitor congressmen & senators & have agents visit them to "warn" them that their indiscretions might just go public if they didn't behave (i.e. vote for whatever allocation the FBI requested). You know what politician laid all this out in an interview? Staid, anodyne, & upright ol' Walter Mondale.
Might make one wonder what they have on Justice Roberts to get such convenient hail mary's ...
YH: "In case you haven't yet heard, a Republican & a Democratic Senator went on the news programs on Sunday & said they've found no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion by the Trump campaign with the Russians."
Dude, give Unknown another 12 hours to catch up. It's only been 24 hours since that lefty narrative exploded.
Remember, he ran casinos for years.
Also remember he ran a good number of them so poorly they ended up bankrupt.
Blogger OGWiseman said... "At this point, Althouse, I think you need to ask whether you're really being "cruelly neutral" here. If Trump doesn't mean "ordered" here, what does he mean? That Obama literally snuck into his campaign offices, wearing the most famous face in the world, and inserted a bug into his phones personally?"
I doubt you will be so charitable when assessing the actions of Trump's Administration. Try this, if people under Obama's auspices did something with his knowledge, it is attributable to him. It is unthinkable that his DOJ would seek an eavesdropping FISA warrant and eavesdrop on the presidential candidate of the opposing party without his knowledge. Therefore, if they got the warrant and did the eavesdropping, it is attributable to Obama.
If you don't get that, you should join the nitwits posting comments at Kos, WaPo and the NYT.
Trump is accusing his predecessor of an impeachment-worthy crime. Trump could show his evidence and win the day. If Trump has no evidence, we'll all just shrug and say, well, Trump is a known liar, just like they say in the newspapers and on MSNBC.
Bay Guy,
How do you not have Manafort on that list?
Mike don't pull that weasel shit on me. I voted for Bush and supported almost all of his tenure.
I am not defending the New York Times or NBC or Democrats or anybody else comprising your "they."
You know a whole lot of us were onto left wing media bias way back then. Bernie Goldberg wrote the book. Brent Bozell has been leading the fight. And they have both been openly questioning Trump as I have.
Freder: "And you base this assertion on what exactly?"
Well, on this very thread we have been informed by our lefty "betters" that of course Trump was bugged because "everyone" is bugged because "NSA" and what do you think they are doing.
So what's the big deal man? What's the problem? In fact, of course obama the Patriot bugged Trump and he was right to do so and he'll soon be on Mt Rushmore!!!
And since that is the lefty position and we have been told the left is "reality based" and to always listen to our betters, we have to accept that Trump was bugged, don't we?
Look, could you huddle up with your lunatic team and get them on the same talking points for maybe at least half an hour?
"Unless the anti-Trumpsters can speak clearly avoid the safety of that word, I will not trust what they say. "
You will never trust what they say, so anti-Trumpsters should stop modifying their language to appeal to you.
Chuck: "Mike don't pull that weasel shit on me. I voted for Bush and supported almost all of his tenure."
Asserting facts not in evidence.
The investigations are not completed. None of us are privy to the results yet, not even the Senators.
Maybe you weren't sure if that goes in the pro or con category.
I can see that.
Nyamujal: "You will never trust what they say, so anti-Trumpsters should stop modifying their language to appeal to you"
I think you meant to say the anti-Trumpsters should not even begin to modify their language to appeal to Althouse since there is no evidence they ever tried.
Just to be precise here lest "lifelong republican" Chuck gets upset.
"Unless the anti-Trumpsters can speak clearly avoid the safety of that word, I will not trust what they say. "
"You will never trust what they say, so anti-Trumpsters should stop modifying their language to appeal to you."
She won't believe anything that would shine a negative light on Trump. It's mindboggling how entrenched she is, as an intelligent person.
Unknown: "The investigations are not completed."
LOL
Keep hope alive!!
Carry on!
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson: "Maybe you weren't sure if that goes in the pro or con category. I can see that."
Don't you get coy with me Mister!
Freder Frederson said...
"'There's no doubt candidate Trump was bugged by the US Government.' And you base this assertion on what exactly?"
Oh look, Freder's forgotten all the January leftmedia reports about FISA applications, warrants and investigations into Trump and Russia.
That's easier than asking if they were lying then or lying now. It also avoids cognitive dissonance.
"Remember, he ran casinos for years.
Also remember he ran a good number of them so poorly they ended up bankrupt."
Plus, DJT used them as a way for daddy to bail him out by buying $3,400,000 in chips to hide money that Mr. Art of the Deal needed to keep from going broke.
The investigations that will end with Karl Rove being frogmarched or whatever the phrase was are also still not complete, I'm sure.
Lord, we should all just can it with the tweet analysis. Tweets are not an official white house statement. Tweets are not a deposition. Tweets are not statements from the senate floor (I'm looking at you Harry Romney didn't pay taxes Reid). Absent the importance of the author a tweet is nothing more substantive than any of our comments.
How many of us have written Obama as shorthand for the Obama Administration? Likewise, for Bush or any other president. To subject a medium restricted to 140 characters to the equivalent of Talmudic scholarship is patently absurd. But I have no illusions, the farce will continue as long as it serves the supposedly adult parties political aims.
"Nothing to hide here. Right?"
Of course not. Nothing at all. Except that the entire government apparatus is not fit for purpose, corrupt beyond what most here can imagine, and chaotic besides. Intelligence agency people shooting each other, random spying on everyone, the FBI making quiet threats to people not with the program, utter incompetence in national security (the constant stream of massive security breaches, that we know about; imagine what we don't know about).
At this point I suspect that all of the three-letter security/intelligence/criminal justice agencies should simply be closed down, doing no good and much bad. There is so much deadwood and so many compromised people in them that it would be impossible to sort out the useful from the useless, the corrupt from the honest. A new FBI should be chartered de novo with entirely new personnel.
I wonder if another bit of weaseling might relate to the fact that NSA can change compel the telecom companies to turn over records, so no actual wiretapping needs to be involved. James Rosen, I think, was pointing that out when he said that neither he nor his parents were wiretapped.
All of this is making me more curious about the origins of the "Trump is in cahoots with Putin" whisper campaign and I've started digging up old stories. Very interesting stuff (google "Tea Leaves Trump server")
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/11/the_trump_server_evaluating_new_evidence_and_countertheories.html
https://theintercept.com/2016/11/01/heres-the-problem-with-the-story-connecting-russia-to-donald-trumps-email-server/
http://emptylighthouse.com/who-tea-leaves-what-trump-emailcom-who-cedyn-528639029
I really didn't pay enough attention when the story broke in October. So apparently we are to believe that a bunch of computer nerds got curious, in their spare time, y'know, and stumbled upon this secret server. And then again, just a bunch of guys with a hobby, but they got concerned enough that they compiled a dossier and farmed it out to the media. And just for good measure, the contact guy adopted the pseudonym "Tea Leaves."
Most of the journalists, to their credit, were skeptical. What needs to happen now is for the FISA requests to be made public. If they were based on this weak tea, then that points to this being a scandal that will eclipse Watergate. If the DOJ/FBI had some other probable cause, then let's hear it.
@Unknown,
The investigations are not completed. None of us are privy to the results yet, not even the Senators.
So, the investigation isn't complete, & we don't yet know the verdict. However, folks who have seen the evidence are claiming publicly & bi-partisanly that there's no there there.
But, "rational people" know what the verdict's going to be?
You're insane. You really are.
hombre: "Oh look, Freder's forgotten all the January leftmedia reports about FISA applications, warrants and investigations into Trump and Russia.
That's easier than asking if they were lying then or lying now. It also avoids cognitive dissonance"
And remember, for Field Marshall Freder and the left, they were right Right RIGHT!! back then and they are even more right Right RIGHT!!! now!!
It's all very amusing.
"She won't believe anything that would shine a negative light on Trump. It's mindboggling how entrenched she is, as an intelligent person."
Hmm. Let me weigh an honest, reasonable, accomplished, Law Professor, who faithfully records her informed observations in writing, daily, to be challenged by one and all versus an unknown commentator.
Yeah, that's a hard one:)
Release the FISA applications!!!
Interfered. Ordered.
Keep watching the language and the dance. It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
Not the first time we've been thru this.
Unknown said... "The investigations are not completed. None of us are privy to the results yet, not even the Senators."
What investigations? The one's giving rise to the wiretaps?
The surveillance was leaked to left-wing journalists at Slate and Mother Jones in October.
"How many of us have written Obama as shorthand for the Obama Administration? Likewise, for Bush or any other president."
Good point, but the man is the Leader of the Free World. I'd think he could be more precise when making allegations of this nature. Too much to ask?
Freder's forgotten all the January leftmedia reports about FISA applications, warrants and investigations into Trump and Russia.
Investigations I remember. Please provide links to "leftmedia" reports of FISA warrants.
Flynn got caught because he was talking to the Russian ambassador, who could (and Flynn should have known, almost certainly was) have been tapped without a FISA warrant.
"Good point, but the man is the Leader of the Free World. I'd think he could be more precise when making allegations of this nature. Too much to ask?"
-- If you don't understand how metonyms work, maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't comment on politics until you do.
"Lord, we should all just can it with the tweet analysis. Tweets are not an official white house statement. Tweets are not a deposition."
That's rational thinking. But, DJT won't let his spokespeople go out and clean them up by walking them back. That's weakness.
So, the tweets wag the dog. The tweets become policy because, as DJT sees it, backing away from them would show that DJT was weak/wrong. Plus, he may actually believe/feel some of his tweet stuff. There may be a screw loose.
"Flynn got caught because he was talking to the Russian ambassador, who could (and Flynn should have known, almost certainly was) have been tapped without a FISA warrant."
-- Given that we've learned that plenty of Democrats ALSO met with the Russian ambassador while denying it, I wonder if Flynn needed to be punished for lying about talking with a Russian ambassador. Until the left throws all the senators/congress people out who turned out to lie about it, I'm going to just assume the answer is: "Of course not, we never cared about the principle, just whether we could harm our political opponents, which we did."
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
hombre,
The denial is based on the claim by DJT. DJT claims that BHO wire tapped his phones. The way that BHO would do this is from his position as POTUS where he has people do things for him. These directions where ordered by the POTUS, according to DJT's claim.
A litteral interpretation of DJT's claim would be that BHO, himself, installed the tap.
So, maybe y'all want a denial where BHO, in addition to denying that he had others instal the tap, he denies that he himself also didn't do it, personally, as DJT's claim literally states.
Pure bad faith. We are watching lefties defend a sitting president using tools meant to fight foreign terrorism on his political opponents. The left has turned the IRS, EPA, FBI, and CIA and others on their political opponents. They have on numerous occasions used violence and intimidation on their political opponents.
You will be really sad when we start treating you like you have been treating us.
Might make one wonder what they have on Justice Roberts to get such convenient hail mary's ...
His children's adoption. It was been hinted at for years.
"Remember, he ran casinos for years.
Also remember he ran a good number of them so poorly they ended up bankrupt."
Next Freder is going to tell us what a great place to do business Atlantic City was.
Steve Jobs was fired by Apple. Remember ?
"How many of us have written Obama as shorthand for the Obama Administration? Likewise, for Bush or any other president."
Er.....what about the "bad (or sick) guy!"?
“How low has President Obama gone to tapp [sic] my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!”
Does that refer to the Obama administration?
Not to mention the "President Obama" part.
Does that mean Obama administration?
The left has turned the IRS, EPA, FBI, and CIA and others on their political opponents. They have on numerous occasions used violence and intimidation on their political opponents.
An payback's a bitch as some lefty troll posted a couple of days ago.
The first time it was denied. After narrowing the focus, the court approved it.
What they did when they narrowed that focus was take Trump's name off of it so the FISA judge didn't realize whose phone would actually be tapped.
The Obama administration's DoJ was full of lawyers who should probably be disbarred.
Release the FISA applications!!!
It's not as sexy as "Remember the Alamo!" -- but you get the drift.
"Does that mean Obama administration?"
-- Yes, unless you believe that President Roosevelt literally marched in WWII when we say the president went to war.
Liberals should be scared, they've tried to destroy Trump but have only succeeded in making him mad. They'll regret it.
This is why I find it so tiring arguing with the left. Basic heuristics of language get ignored whenever it might be convenient, and then we'll be expected to parse what is means.
So, I just went to the Althouse Amazon portal and "ordered" a Drain "Weasel" Hair Clog Tool and then I saw the header on this post. It must be a sign.
Don't try to commit regicide with a rubber knife.
It would be surprisingly easy to get to the bottom of this if Congress wants to, and I suspect this is why Trump asked for the Congressional investigation in the first place. Congress can bring Lynch and all her deputies before the panel, put them under oath, and simply ask them direct questions about whether or not the FISAs were requested, were they granted, and who did they inform about the requests and any info granted. I would also expect they would subpoena testimony from Clapper, Brennan, and Comey, and I would expect them to make these hearing public.
Much has been made of Trump not using his power as president to support his own charge, but consider how anything he released would be portrayed in the press- it would surely be claimed that he was making stuff up. Doing this in a public hearing with sworn testimony is multiple times more effective and hard to ignore.
If the reporting about the FISA applications is true, this is a scandal that the Obamaites won't be able to elude in a Congressional investigation. It all hinges on whether or not these applications were made and whether they were approved. The Democrats are delusional is they believe the fact that a judge or judges approved the taps will give them cover- it won't, and you know it won't because if the taps had provided any evidence at all to the underlying allegations about Trump and the Russians, it would have already been leaked to the press with explicit and undeniable proof in the form of e-mails and recordings.
As I wrote, it all hinges on whether or not the FISA applications were made and approved in the first case. If not, then Trump will be in a pickle.
"This is why I find it so tiring arguing with the left. Basic heuristics of language get ignored whenever it might be convenient, and then we'll be expected to parse what is means."
"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." —Mark Twain
And "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." —Proverbs 26:4 (King James version)
PB: "The tweets become policy .."
Fascinating. Perhaps a list of tweet inspired policy is in order here.
I would also expect they would subpoena testimony from Clapper, Brennan, and Comey, and I would expect them to make these hearing public.
How many times can you hear someone taking the 5th before it starts to get a bit dull?
"Doing this in a public hearing with sworn testimony is multiple times more effective and hard to ignore."
Good point if Gowdy can get a few Congress critters to shut up.
Peanut Butter doubles down and proves my point.
Matthew Sablan said...
This is why I find it so tiring arguing with the left. Basic heuristics of language get ignored whenever it might be convenient, and then we'll be expected to parse what is means.
You get mad because you expect them to argue in good faith and be decent human beings. They are not. They wold happily march us all into reeducation camps and beat the people who fight back. They do it all the time. See how they NEVER condemn the leftist violence or the clear money trail that leads back to their leaders.
They are not good people. They are trying to set up a police state. They are just mad that Obama is going to be taken down by the vast majority of Americans that don't want a federal police state where enemies of the democrat party are raided by the ATF and audited by the IRS.
Matt,
And, if you say Roosevelt was a bad (or sick) guy!, does that mean that you're saying his administration was a bad (or sick) guy!?
"If the reporting about the FISA applications is true, this is a scandal that the Obamaites won't be able to elude in a Congressional investigation."
If collusion with Russia is proven, that (espionage?) will also be something Trump and Associates won't be able to skate away from in all the many investigations, including the congressional ones that are still ongoing.
The president goes on yet another reckless twitter rant and your takeaway is the use of the word "order"? Many people are saying that is sad.
The denials issued by the Obama people are weasily- I commented Saturday afternoon that it would interesting to see what form those denials would take- would be be outright denial that such activity occurred, or would they take the form of "I am not aware". They took the latter form, and that tells me that Trump and/or his surrogates were under electronic surveillance. Indeed, the the denials were more weasily than I expected since they have hidden behind the "not ordered" phraseology. It is also interesting that the talking point has apparently gone out that if the taps were approved, then it shows Trump was guilty of "probable cause".
As I wrote above- that doesn't matter since, if the taps provided any proof of the probable cause, it would have already been in WaPo and the NYTimes.
The one thing Clapper did yesterday that mostly went uncommented on was that there seems to be no evidence that the Trump campaign was in bed with the Russian government.
McCain the terrible says Russia is a gasolene station with a country attached to it. So He wants it to be another American conquest like Saudi Arabia. The war is happening in Syria.
OK. But why do we need to own Russian assets? Is it to protect Germany like it always has been? Or is it an easy target to make many warlords wealthy?
It was ordered by an official of the Trump administration that dolphins are shot daily off the coast of Florida. It's said that the policy is an attempt to ward off anti-reptilian...
Got lost in the details there.
"And, if you say Roosevelt was a bad (or sick) guy!, does that mean that you're saying his administration was a bad (or sick) guy!?"
Maybe Trump just was so enraged he forgot to use "guy" in it's plural form, which would include Obama's minions, think? LOL.
"The president goes on yet another reckless twitter rant and your takeaway is the use of the word "order"? Many people are saying that is sad."
I think it's bizzare.
The denials issued by the Obama people are weasily- I commented Saturday afternoon that it would interesting to see what form those denials would take- would be be outright denial that such activity occurred, or would they take the form of "I am not aware". They took the latter form, and that tells me that Trump and/or his surrogates were under electronic surveillance. Indeed, the the denials were more weasily than I expected since they have hidden behind the "not ordered" phraseology.
The denial I saw this morning said something like "Neither president Obama nor anyone in the white house ordered...".
That's very, very lawyerly "depends on what you mean by is" weaseling.
Many people say saying "many people" in force of an argument is sad.
Drago: "lifelong republican" and "golden showers" guy Chuck: "Drago I was always about clear language. Which is why I have never respected Trump."
Idle curiosity here: I must have missed the threads re "golden showers" - was Precision Chuck actually taking the hotel bed stories seriously? Touting, calling for a thorough investigation, furrowing his brow and stroking his chin about the golden showers?
Entirely unimportant, but to be fair to a man of Chuck's (self)vaunted probity I'll refrain from lmao uproariously at his expense if that's not what you're implying with the reference.
Why does everyone assume the wiretap had to be through government channels? The Democrats employ people like Creamer and are, in NYC where Trump tower exists pretty cozy with the mob. hell, the mob may have already had wiretaps in place for Trump's building deals. Nothing is built in NYC without mob approval, and they are hardly fans of Gullini, who appeared to be the next AG prior to the election. Why leave an official paper trail?
Yancey Ward: "The one thing Clapper did yesterday that mostly went uncommented on was that there seems to be no evidence that the Trump campaign was in bed with the Russian government."
But, but, that would mean Hillary and her campaign are responsible for the dems defeat!!
And we can't have that!!
So Trump must be guilty!! But that would mean he was surveilled!!
And We can't have that!!
So NO HE WASNT surveilled!!
But Trump is a traitor and obama was right for surveilling him!!
Wait, we can't have that!!
(Insert extra loud screaming and MSNBC anchors crying here)
It's pretty clear that the spying happened, and no amount of probable cause is going to get a FISA court to order spying on an American.
Under the very carefully parsed terms of the Obama "denial" one could quite rightly say that Richard Nixon too did not actually "order" the bugging of the DNC.
Angel-Dyne: "Idle curiosity here: I must have missed the threads re "golden showers" - was Precision Chuck actually taking the hotel bed stories seriously?"
Are you kidding me?
"lifelong republican" Chuck was reveling in them! He was gloriously reveling in them!! He was using them to taunt anyone who voted for Trump. Oh my gosh, it just might have been the very best day of his entire "lifelong republican" life.
Which is why his calls for precision, accuracy, proof etc now ring hollow.
At this point I would normally mention other internet rumors involving certain youths and their rumored ailments that "lifelong republican" Chuck loved to regale us with, but based on popular Althouse commentariat demands, I must refrain.
If collusion with Russia is proven, that (espionage?) will also be something Trump and Associates won't be able to skate away from in all the many investigations, including the congressional ones that are still ongoing.
Nobody with any credibility is even alleging that.
Here's the tell that Trump is trolling Twitter with his usual bullshit:
"I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!"
True enough - a good lawyer can make a great case out of bullshit.
It does make one suspicious that former DNI James Clapper has come out and denied there was any wiretap. Why should someone at his level bother to deny it, if it is false? The thing about bullshit is, it may be true.
3rd Grade intellect wrote:
"How many of us have written Obama as shorthand for the Obama Administration? Likewise, for Bush or any other president."
Er.....what about the "bad (or sick) guy!"?
“How low has President Obama gone to tapp [sic] my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!”
Does that refer to the Obama administration?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps President Trump assumed that Obama would know went on within his own administration...a real faux pas given how unengaged BHO was as president.
Kebas: "Under the very carefully parsed terms of the Obama "denial" one could quite rightly say that Richard Nixon too did not actually "order" the bugging of the DNC."
Nixon did not even know about the break-in until afterwards. It's what he did from the moment he learned of the break-in that eventually did him in.
Given what the dems have done from time immemorial, Nixon should have burned the tapes. But hindsight is always 20/20 except for the left who simply rewrites history so that their present-sight from way back when is always 20/20 but only after the re-write.
Either there are rogue departments/agencies or there aren't.
It is that simple.
Freder Frederson said...
Apparently, the way you want us to read it, Trump is contending Obama personally installed the wire tap.
Actually this is how Trump critics want us to read it. As usual Freder concludes wet roads cause rain.
"Under the very carefully parsed terms of the Obama "denial" one could quite rightly say that Richard Nixon too did not actually "order" the bugging of the DNC."
But, in this situation DJT does say that BHO ordered the tapping:
“Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower just before the victory,” Mr. Trump said. “Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!”
Angel-Dyne said...
Idle curiosity here: I must have missed the threads re "golden showers" - was Precision Chuck actually taking the hotel bed stories seriously? Touting, calling for a thorough investigation, furrowing his brow and stroking his chin about the golden showers?
As seriously as he takes the reports on Barron's "autism." So whether or not he believed them he used them as a weapon against Trump. Chuck will sink to any depths to destroy Trump including claims that he is a "lifelong" republican.
The left does not believe most of the crap is spews except a few really stupid people like unknown. Not even PBJ has any conviction on this thread. He knows how pathetic and tenuous the left's position is here. He is down to parsing the exact wording of tweets.
BTW,
Is Althosue saying that "Obama had my 'wires tapped' in Trump Tower" is different than saying that "Obama ordered my 'wires tapped' in Trump Tower?
Livermoron: "Perhaps President Trump assumed that Obama would know went on within his own administration...a real faux pas given how unengaged BHO was as president"
GWBush was personally responsible for directing a hurricane towards the chocolate city of New Orleans and he might as well have personally made some Iraqi prisoners lay on one another in Iraq according to the left.
Every republican is personally responsible for any action/statement/directive ever given/uttered by any other republican since the beginning of time but democrats are not even responsible for their own actions.
Why, Babs Streisand is being forced to gain weight because "Trump"! Suicides are up "because Trump"!!
And don't get me started on how global warming drives the global islamist jihad.
The Tweets are de-stabilizing the Left, the Media and the Democrats.
It's somewhat amusing to watch.
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
"Under the very carefully parsed terms of the Obama "denial" one could quite rightly say that Richard Nixon too did not actually "order" the bugging of the DNC."
But, in this situation DJT does say that BHO ordered the tapping:
“Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my ‘wires tapped’ in Trump Tower just before the victory,” Mr. Trump said. “Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!”
This is bad faith in it's purest form.
Have fun defending the surveillance of political opponents douchebag. Or should I say political enemies.
Anyone who sides with Obama and the people who carried this activity out is anathema to a free society.
"Either there are rogue departments/agencies or there aren't."
There is enough smoke AND fire to show that all of them, probably, are not simply useless but dangerously corrupt.
"BTW,
Is Althosue saying that "Obama had my 'wires tapped' in Trump Tower" is different than saying that "Obama ordered my 'wires tapped' in Trump Tower?"
Weasel much.
Did we ever resolve how many FBI agents were full time investigating HRC?
It seems like for a while cons liked saying there were 54, or so. Because a big number of FBI folks investigating you means the FBI is doing good work and you're crooked. I think real news reports put the number at half that, or so. Still that's quite impressive to have more than twenty FBI agents (and all sorts of Congressional committees) full-time investigating the political candidate of a major political party. The fun Comey cliff hanger at the end and all the other FBI leaks along the way were especially good examples of justice being done to Crooked Hillary.
You have become a Trump defender.
But your defense misses the point, so much so that it feels deliberate.
There are two part of the tweets: one, were Trump's phones ("my phones, as he says in one tweet) tapped and, two, did Obama do something to make that happen.
Both must be true for Trump's tweet to be true.
There is no evidence that Trump's phones were tapped. As best can be determined, the stories on which Trump relies concern a warrant about communications with a Russian bank from a campaign server that may have been located in Philly.
There is also no evidence that Obama did anything to effectuate or further whatever surveillance occurred. You seem to suggest that because Trump doesn't use the word order he isn't leveling an accusation at Obama. That's not persuasive. Of course you are right that the word order does not appear. So what? Every single tweet actually uses wire tap or wire tapping as an active verb and uses Obama or the President as the subject of the verb. Or as you put it, Obama is accused of doing something--wire tapping.
So if Obama did nothing? Suppose if the warrant was sought by lower level federal investigators operating independently of him and without his knowledge? And as you suggest, was ordered by the court. In what sense would Trump's claim then be true? Not in any ordinary language sense. And that is obviously what Comey is trying to get the DOJ to say.
Put another way, on its face this is an outrageous slander, by a person with a demonstrated lack of regard for the truth, which has been directly denied by President Obama, James Clapper, and James Comey. No one has come forward--or leaked--to suggest that the claim is true.
Professor Althouse, why invest so much energy in a twisted and unpersuasive defense of such doubtful conduct?
"But the notorious Trump tweets do not say that Obama "ordered" a wiretapping."
Ordered was in the response by the Obama team. "Ordered" is their weasel word.
The media is choosing to repeat Obama's weasel word ad nauseam because ... they are weasels.
And, lest we lose sight of the big picture:
All this wiretapping nonsense derives from Hillary's epic Presidential loss, and the Dems' effort to blame a Russian-Trump hacking conspiracy on said loss.
Sad!
Bay Area Guy said...
"The Tweets are de-stabilizing the Left, the Media and the Democrats.
It's somewhat amusing to watch."
The tweets drive them nuts because it is Trump going over their heads directly to the people. They don't get to filter it like they would a press release, for example. I have predicted that before the year is out, Twitter will try to ban Trump under pressure from the Left.
"Because a big number of FBI folks investigating you means the FBI is doing good work and you're crooked"
And the mountain strained, and gave birth to a mouse.
There was wishful thinking about some remnant of professionalism or morality in the FBI.
Apparently there are no such remnants.
This in itself is more smoke of corruption, in that the FBI for some reason could not make a case in a situation which was so plain, and most of the relevant information was already publicly known.
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