Althouse: "[T]hen a big group of people showed up just as the kids were treating the memorial more like a jungle gym and the parents were laughing."

March 25, 2015

"[T]hen a big group of people showed up just as the kids were treating the memorial more like a jungle gym and the parents were laughing."

"Then the veterans showed up, and they looked hurt more than angry. They were quiet."

NOTE: Meade and I have had encounters here in Madison over veterans monuments — here, here, here, and here.

65 comments:

rhhardin said...: I'm with Andy Rooney.

The veterans already got what they deserve, namely a free country.; 3/25/15, 8:44 AM
Big Mike said...: I agree that the children's activities were disrespectful and that parents are responsible. If I was a judge and the parents were brought before me I'd sentence them and their kids to work weekends in a veteran's rehab center for a year.; 3/25/15, 8:50 AM
traditionalguy said...: War on women who were really at war. You never see that sillyness at Colleville sur mer Cemetary overlooking Omaha Beach.; 3/25/15, 8:51 AM
Mark said...: Shame! Shame!

The world doesn't need more scolds.

It apparently does need playground somewhere on the mall.; 3/25/15, 8:59 AM
Bob Ellison said...: It's nice to see a reminder of what badasses you and Meade can be.; 3/25/15, 9:00 AM
tim maguire said...: I'm with Munson--it is not per se disrespectful for children play on a memorial, but a statue of a dying soldier? Yeah, that's wrong.; 3/25/15, 9:03 AM
MisterBuddwing said...: The times I've visited the Vietnam Memorial, people were properly respectful. The one time I visited the World War II Memorial on the National Mall was a different story - I found myself thinking that people were treating it like some kind of a theme park.

I remember noticing two men, one younger, the other older, talking to each other. They were speaking Spanish, but apparently the younger man wanted to toss a coin into a part of the memorial filled with water, and the older man was telling him not to. There were signs telling people not to throw coins in the water, just as there were signs telling people not to wade in a shallow rectangular pool - but people were doing it anyway.; 3/25/15, 9:05 AM
MadisonMan said...: The obvious question is why build a Memorial that can be used in a way you don't want it to be used?

My "favorite" example of this is on the Capitol Square, northeast corner, that open round monument/planter -- is it to fallen Police officers? (I'm not up there very often). Anyway, it's mid-thigh height, and a nice flat surface -- perfect to sit on. Then all around it you see signs that say "Don't sit here".

Why would someone design a memorial that looks like a sitting surface if they don't want people to sit on it? What were they thinking?

Good design means you won't run into problems -- if you can call this a problem -- like this one.; 3/25/15, 9:08 AM
MadisonMan said...: Why design a monument with still shallow water in a hot/humid climate if you don't want people wading in it?

I'm shaming the designers. I'm sure they won awards for the design.; 3/25/15, 9:10 AM
Shanna said...: Matthew Munson was visiting the memorial when some parents encouraged their children to climb on the memorial for a picture.

That was rude of the parents.

The one time I visited the World War II Memorial on the National Mall was a different story - I found myself thinking that people were treating it like some kind of a theme park.

Well, the WWII people insisted on being in that spot. It's a different type of memorial and made to be walked in and around. They built it right in the middle of the walkway. And you can't throw coins in a fountain? That is what people do with fountains. I'm not surprised they were doing it anyway and I don't consider it disrespectful.; 3/25/15, 9:12 AM
Curious George said...: Wouldn't happen here.; 3/25/15, 9:13 AM
Expat(ish) said...: I've seen plenty of people necking on the steps at the Lincoln Memorial at night, thought the park police try to keep that to a minimum. But it's still hushed inside.

I never minded that, nor students mugging with Silent Sam - the confederate memorial at college.

I can't imagine a kid playing tag at, say, the Korean war memorial.

So there are differences,I tink @MrBuddWing got that right. Perhaps it's just how you're brought up.

-XC; 3/25/15, 9:13 AM
Monkeyboy said...: I see this as a "time and place" issue. Kids jumping in the pool at the DC WWII memorial is fun, kids in the pool in the D-Day memorial in Bedford is not. The Vietnam memorials were deliberately made to be somber reflecting the "poor victims of a bad war" mentality of the country. You don't play on the statue of a woman trying desperately to save a dying soldier.
Having said that I think that the modern internet lynch mobs that try to punish people for offending them are infinitely worse.; 3/25/15, 9:14 AM
Shanna said...: I can't imagine a kid playing tag at, say, the Korean war memorial.

I went to school in DC. When I first saw the Korean memorial at night? That was truly affecting in the way a war memorial should be. I think that one is brilliant.

But we used to go to the lincoln at night all the time and sit on the steps. And we used to sprawl all over the grass and walk and run on the paths by the reflecting pool. The WWII memorial was built later and I really was not excited about it because I was afraid it would ruin the lines from the lincoln to the washington monument. Its better than I thought it would be but I still don't love it.; 3/25/15, 9:17 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Around here they name playgrounds after dead kids so I'm not sure what to think.; 3/25/15, 9:18 AM
Known Unknown said...: I'm tired of outrage.

It was a fleeting moment in time.

Let it go.

There's more triviality to be pissed off about 'round the next corner.; 3/25/15, 9:23 AM
rhhardin said...: The solution is virtual memorials with comments disabled.; 3/25/15, 9:32 AM
Anonymous said...: The Irony is that most of the American Women who died in the Vietnam war died on the same day, Apr 4, 1975, in the same accident, when a C-5 full of Ami-Viet Orphans crashed.

Beyond that, I think only 1 nurse died of wounds. 3-4 were killed in aircraft crashes. 3-4 in jeep accidents. The female missionaries were a different story. Most of them died at the hands of the VC in very unpleasant ways.

67 in total. 9 Military and 58 US Civilians; 3/25/15, 9:33 AM
rhhardin said...: Bizarro comic recently, guy sitting on statue, approximately :

"The rumor is that he was abandoned as a baby in the park and raised by pigeons."; 3/25/15, 9:34 AM
lgv said...: Welcome to the new age.

I think I would have politely told the parents that it was inappropriate for the children to be playing on the memorial. Then they probably would have screamed at me.; 3/25/15, 9:34 AM
Michael said...: I am not outraged in the least at what I have come to expect of most parents, most people, here in the 2st century. The children have no concept of respect, nor any idea that they could not do exactly what the fuck they wanted to do and when the fuck they wanted to do it. Because who are you to judge them?

This is what we asked for and what we now have.

Get used to it.; 3/25/15, 9:34 AM
Jason said...: Free peoples' problems.; 3/25/15, 9:35 AM
Heartless Aztec said...: My great great grandfather and namesake served in the 2nd Gov Guards, Co A of Kershaw's Brigade of McLaw's Div of Longstreet's Corp of the Army of Northern Virginia in the late great War for Constitutional Liberty and Southern Independence. Rumbled with that Wisconsin Eagle in your State house on one occasion if failing memory serves me well. Try on the disrespect and vandalism to Confederate memorials and jungle gyming by children is positively quaint.; 3/25/15, 9:37 AM
Shanna said...: The Irony is that most of the American Women who died in the Vietnam war died on the same day, Apr 4, 1975, in the same accident, when a C-5 full of Ami-Viet Orphans crashed.

I did not know that. Awful.

Of course, now I'm questioning why we have a womens vietnam veterans memorial at all. It seems a women veterans memorial generally would be more fitting. Or nurses of american wars memorial. Or some such thing.

Because the vietnam memorial is a simple place with only names. Wouldn't the women who died be listed as well?

Now I have to look this thing up...; 3/25/15, 9:37 AM
rhhardin said...: It ought be spelled mnemorial anyway, if there were any respect for etymology.; 3/25/15, 9:39 AM
rhhardin said...: We need memorials for words.; 3/25/15, 9:40 AM
rhhardin said...: "With all due respect for words, given the habits they have acquired in so many foul mouths, it actually takes courage not only to write but even to speak...There is only one way out: to speak against words."

Francis Ponge; 3/25/15, 9:42 AM
tim maguire said...: lgv said...I would have politely told the parents that it was inappropriate for the children to be playing on the memorial. Then they probably would have screamed at me.

Sounds about right.; 3/25/15, 9:44 AM
rhhardin said...: The point of a memorial is to get an interest group to shut up.; 3/25/15, 9:50 AM
Anonymous said...: Shanna, here is the link.

http://www.virtualwall.org/women.htm

as for the C5?

Operation Babylift.

It had two purposes, to get the orphans out and also to allow an excuse to evac a lot of American Fed civilian women as Vietnam collapsed without it looking like a rout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Babylift; 3/25/15, 9:57 AM
Bob Boyd said...: Way to go Meade!
I loved watching you take that shirt down. That took nerve. It was a little suspenseful. I was afraid the statue might break or something. After you were trying with the stick for a bit I was thinking 'Take out your pocket knife, Meade.' Then you did just that.
I also enjoyed watching you multitask, educating and cleaning up after your fellow citizens at the same time.
Keep up these exploits and pretty soon there'll be a Meade action figure available. It'll probably be made in China, but what the hell.; 3/25/15, 10:00 AM
Anonymous said...: Of course, now I'm questioning why we have a womens vietnam veterans memorial at all. It seems a women veterans memorial generally would be more fitting. Or nurses of american wars memorial. Or some such thing.

as rhhardin says, because the wall has 57,000 men and 9 women on it, it doesn't properly recognize the contribution of women to the war.

PS: I have nothing against women in the military. I met my wife there and she retired as a Colonel in the NG. But I agree, the statue of the women is gender politics.; 3/25/15, 10:03 AM
bleh said...: Well, those kids look like they can use the exercise.; 3/25/15, 10:05 AM
Michael K said...: "You never see that sillyness at Colleville sur mer Cemetary overlooking Omaha Beach."

Yup. The nurses memorial is an interest group token.

When in France, I made it a point that my girls visit the cemetery at Omaha.; 3/25/15, 10:10 AM
LYNNDH said...: Two years ago I visited the Mall as a aid for a group of Veterans. I have visited the Vietnam Memorial before, but for the first time saw the WWII, Korean War and the one pictured for the Nurses. Did not like the WWII. Moved greatly by the Korean War and Nurses. I served during this time in Navy on the other part of the world. Did not see combat. I know names on the Wall. Would not like to see anyone climbing over any of them.
Shana, the Nurses suffered great emotional pain in the war (as in any war). A good memorial, showing the anguish of the times.
Surfed, liked your depiction of the War Between the States. I have relatives that served and died wearing the Butternut Brown. Would not like to see anyone playing on any memorial to either side. (And would not fly the Stars and Bars either).; 3/25/15, 10:17 AM
Big Mike said...: @Shanna, there is a video on YouTube under "Air Crash Investigations." The C5 cargo door latches failed shortly after takeoff and the pilots had not control of the tail surfaces, including rudder or elevators.; 3/25/15, 10:19 AM
bleh said...: I respect veterans and all they have done for the country, but I get a bit tired by all the "thank you for your service" stuff. It's an obligatory sop and in my opinion rings hollow.

Same goes for the memorial proliferation. Soon we will have a memorial commemorating the efforts of stateside military dentists during the invasion of Grenada.

Nowadays, military men and women join voluntarily. The relationships is very transactional in nature. Sure, maybe they love their country. But many want career training opportunities, structure/discipline, debt forgiveness, etc. It's hard to get misty-eyed about that.; 3/25/15, 10:26 AM
Tari said...: My 12 year old was in DC with his class last week, and he was upset when his classmates were chatting and laughing at Arlington on the way to the wreath-laying ceremony. He's a censorious little cuss, but I agree with him in that I don't know how you can look out over that sea of graves and decide you need to talk about Taylor Swift with you BFF, right at that moment.; 3/25/15, 10:31 AM
Shanna said...: Shanna, the Nurses suffered great emotional pain in the war (as in any war). A good memorial, showing the anguish of the times.

I actually think a 'nurses of american wars' memorial would be a very fitting thing.

But this "vietnam" women memorial seems awfully specific. A monument to a few women in one war for no particular reason other than politics. I would have been happy if it were for all wars instead. (According to the link, only 67 women died in the vietnam war, and 59 were civilians. Although several were listed as having burned to death in laos and that seems a rather awful way to go.); 3/25/15, 10:38 AM
Anonymous said...: Michael K said...
When in France, I made it a point that my girls visit the cemetery at Omaha.

- One of the most beautiful places in the world. perfectly aligned graves, grass like a putting green, overlooking the beach, flags flying.

- I suspect that your daughter and nieces could relate to the idea of being the fiance of one of the men there.

- The French in Normandy still remember. The last time I was there, we stayed in a B&B run by an old man who had been 14 on D-day.

- The 15 foot craters from the Battleship Texas are still up there on that bluff.

- I get chills every time I watch the first 5 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan and think of the "Boys from Bedford". A/1/116th Inf. Virginia National Guard. Beach Dog One; 3/25/15, 10:40 AM
Brando said...: I guess it sounds insensitive to say so, but we seem to be going through "memorial fatigue"--they're running out of space in DC alone for memorials to pretty much every president, every war, and almost everything else you can think of. Maybe there can be one catch-all memorial dedicated to all the people and event that need memorializing, leaving space on the edifice to memorialize future events and people?

I guess I'd feel different if it were my group wanting a memorial (whatever my group is). But it seems with so many at a certain point they lose their luster.

The Big Three (Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson) will always stand out though--for size, longevity, design, and the persons honored.; 3/25/15, 10:41 AM
Anonymous said...: PS Michael.

Officers are over represented there at Omaha.

After the war, families had a choice to bring remains home or leave them there.

Enlisted families tended to bring their loved ones home.

Officer families decided to leave their loved one among the men he led...; 3/25/15, 10:43 AM
Larry J said...: There are times and places where such play is inappropriate. I believe this is one of them. Would it be wrong if they were visiting a church and decided to climb on the cross or pipe organ? At what point do you say enough? Kids, by nature, don't understand boundaries. It's the parents' job to teach them.; 3/25/15, 10:44 AM
Shanna said...: The French in Normandy still remember.

When I was in France many years ago, we went to a little town in Normandy where americans had parachuted in.

hey're running out of space in DC alone for memorials

Because everybody wants huge memorials in prime real estate! Have you seen the FDR one? Ugh. They can't just put up a little pretty thing on the side of the reflecting pool. (I'm still irritated at the WW2 people for insisting on the spot they did, if that isn't obvious.)

Meanwhile the poor WWI memorial is so sad and nobody loves it.; 3/25/15, 10:45 AM
bleh said...: 57,000 American servicemen die, women and minorities hardest hit; 3/25/15, 10:45 AM
Anonymous said...: When I was in France many years ago, we went to a little town in Normandy where americans had parachuted in.

Sainte-Mère-Église; 3/25/15, 11:01 AM
Shanna said...: Sainte-Mère-Église

That looks right. It was a beautiful little town. We lost all our pictures from that trip.; 3/25/15, 11:07 AM
Michael K said...: "The French in Normandy still remember."

When you drive along those roads, there is a memorial plaque every mile or so. Almost all are to army engineers who must have been clearing mines and were killed there.

San Mere Eglise now has a growing memorial to the airborne divisions that is growing all the time as the veterans die off and leave their memorabilia to the museum. The museum has grown enormously since the first time I visitied.; 3/25/15, 11:15 AM
Birches said...: By the children's ages in the picture, I'm guessing their parents are not old enough to remember the Vietnam War. I'm sure they meant no disrespect, but with all the memorials around, they probably didn't immediately process the difference between a statue of a guy riding a horse on two legs and this statue. I'm having a hard time getting worked up over this.

We hang out at my uncle's gravestone every Christmas Eve. We bring hot chocolate and cookies (and sometimes tamales) and sing and laugh and joke. I'm sure there are many who think we are not being terribly respectful. Different strokes for different folks.; 3/25/15, 11:19 AM
Fritz said...: Little kids ride on the statue of Balto in Central Park all the time.; 3/25/15, 11:36 AM
Anonymous said...: Birches

http://www.ecologicalhope.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/woman-at-grave-of-her-fiance-ny-times.jpg; 3/25/15, 11:41 AM
Alex said...: Is it ok to urinate on these things to make a political point?; 3/25/15, 11:48 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: "In Honor of Patriots of African Descent who Served, Suffered and Sacrificed During the Valley Forge Encampment 1777 -- 1778"

Link ONE

Link TWO

And it's all good because I never would have known otherwise!; 3/25/15, 12:01 PM
lemondog said...: Regardless of politics,
a closer view has quite an emotional impact. It is difficult to see how a parent could be immuned.; 3/25/15, 12:29 PM
William said...: Memorials don't have much of an effect on me. But those rows upon rows of little white crosses at veterans' cemeteries are overpowering.; 3/25/15, 12:32 PM
hombre said...: I'd say we have enough to worry about without worrying about where kids play. Maybe the vets could have explained to the kids and their parents the significance of the monument. Maybe not.; 3/25/15, 12:43 PM
Anonymous said...: William said...
Memorials don't have much of an effect on me. But those rows upon rows of little white crosses at veterans' cemeteries are overpowering.

I'm not a fan of the big ones and hate the Vietnam and the WWII ones. I like the simple European style.

Village square. Granite Obelisk. names of the men from the village inscribed at the base along with the local regimental crest.

One example that really impacted me was at the York cathedral. The Brits recruit for their Counties. Each Regiment has a home therefore. When a Regimental Color is retired, it doesn't go into a warehouse. The Regiments around York send their colors to the Cathedral and they hang in the rafters...

A Nave has the memorials from various regiments from the Great War. I remember the casualty book from one of the regiments. 2800 men in the regiment and 20,000 names in the book. Think about the throughput in that meatgrinder...

First Day of the Somme, 1916. The British Army had 60,000 dead/wounded. (1 day, more than all of Vietnam.

The total losses for the longer battle (e.g. 4 months)? more than 1,000,000.

You need to understand the WWI losses to understand the appeasement of the 1930's.; 3/25/15, 12:48 PM
Steve said...: This wouldn't fly at Arlington National Cemetery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdSNYQt7R2k; 3/25/15, 1:52 PM
Drago said...: Alex: "Is it ok to urinate on these things to make a political point?"

A less than thoughtful (and sober) American sailor in Antalya Turkey some years back found out how "tactically unwise" it was to urinate on a statue of Ataturk just because it was late, out of site of shore security, and going to be a 20 minute boat ride back to the carrier.; 3/25/15, 1:52 PM
Renee said...: The kids were bored. Maybe the place needs a jungle gym.

We have a veterans memorial in the adjacent town, right next door to the public playground / water park.

Guess what? Kids don't climb on the monuments.; 3/25/15, 2:46 PM
fede said...: I'm having a hard time getting worked up about this. What I DO have a problem with is I'm wondering about all the folks who are, if they're the same ones who were applauding the "baby in a flag" picture. I know, at least the flag has a code to follow.; 3/25/15, 3:45 PM
RecChief said...: I've seen kids playing around and climbing on the Vietnam Veterans memorial (the bronze statue of three soldiers) and no one had a hissy fit. Is this because it is a WOMEN'S veterans memorial?; 3/25/15, 5:15 PM
Trashhauler said...: Some people are oblivious to what is around them. Kids are especially so. They probably did not mean any disrespect.

Better signage might help.; 3/25/15, 5:19 PM
Big Mike said...: Worth reading: The Things They Leave Behind at the Vietnam Wall.; 3/25/15, 5:31 PM
jaed said...: I've seen kids playing around and climbing on the Vietnam Veterans memorial (the bronze statue of three soldiers) and no one had a hissy fit. Is this because it is a WOMEN'S veterans memorial?

It's because it's a piéta. The bronze statue of the three soldiers isn't, so kids playing around it doesn't involve stepping on a (sculpture of a) dying soldier.; 3/25/15, 11:34 PM