SO IF IT’S A SCANDAL WHEN PENN STATE OR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH cover up sex abuse, then why isn’t it just as big a scandal when the Occupy groups urge people not to report sexual assaults on-site so that they can “deal with them internally?”The Penn State and Catholic Church scandals involved child victims. Adults have an obligation to protect children and to stop predators from moving on to other children. When the victim is an adult, she (or he) is capable of consenting to sexual touchings, and depending on the circumstances, there can be room for interpretation and confusion. That may, under some circumstances, justify talking to someone who feels victimized about whether to perceive what happened as a crime and to try to find a resolution that does not bring the police into the situation. So there is a difference between Occupy [Your City] and the Penn State and Catholic Church scandals.
What may be the same, however, in all those cases, is the motivation to protect the organization, to preserve the organization's reputation and power and to put its interests above those of the individual.
And isn't it ironic that the Occupy [Your City] protesters are supposedly outraged over the depredations of corporations — that is, people acting in organization form, pursuing the interests of the entity? They undermine the foundation of their protest if they subordinate the individual to the group.
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OWS: entropy
It is the sacred duty of all adults to protect children from predators. I concur w/ your analysis. Hopefully ShoutingThomas has the flu or a power outage.
I don't think your contention that the Occupiers Without Occupation are not children will stand much scrutiny, but an excellent analysis otherwise.
The Occupy movement believes that it is the new government that has occupied the territory of the old government....like Impersonating a Government as the way to complete the shoving of the other government out.
In scripture this action is referred to as the work of the spirit of the antichrist. It is everywhere today.
#OWS is just the usual gang of communists, socialists and utopian dipshits.
They're not against corporations or individuals screwing you in the shower against your will, they just want to be running the State when it mandates that you comply.
Fen's Law: The Left doesn't really believe in the things they lecture the rest of us about.
What part of "by any means necessary" don't you understand?
It is the sacred duty of all adults to protect children from predators. I concur w/ your analysis. Hopefully ShoutingThomas has the flu or a power outage.
Sacred duty, no less!
If you're going to carry on like a fool about sacred duties, do you at least bother to believe in God?
Jesus, this shit is getting old, Althouse. Give it a break.
The feminist sex abuse hysteria drones on and one.
Are all of you so thick headed that you cannot see how this hysteria is the perfect pretext for unlimited government intrusion into every aspect of your lives?
Cool out and consider this bit of wisdom from the most brilliant person I've ever met, herself a victim of the most vicious sexual abuse you can imagine:
What makes you think that a sexual injury is so fucking different than any other kind of injury?
White knights... mount your horses!
I dont think it's the same because the people at OWS are presumably adults who are capable of going to the police themselves. If they let peer pressure make them stay silent, that tells you a lot about the group dynamics but little else.
"What makes you think that a sexual injury is so fucking different than any other kind of injury?"
Because unlike a broken arm or a slapped cheek, it is perceived by most victims as a violation of the self. Little else can cause that so efficiently.
That some do not so perceive it is not proof otherwise, but merely grace unbestowed.
And isn't it ironic that the Occupy [Your City] protesters are supposedly outraged over the depredations of corporations — that is, people acting in organization form, pursuing the interests of the entity?
No, what's ironic is that some of the best legal minds our country has produced are treating the "protests" of morons as though they have merit worthy of discussion. How much destruction has occured? How much time and money have been wasted? How many people have told them, directly and indirectly, cruelly and with kindness, they are misguided? And what has it gotten anybody? Rapes over a dogged discussion of non-issues.
That's what's ironically going on in reality.
It's time for the family judge with the belt.
Because unlike a broken arm or a slapped cheek, it is perceived by most victims as a violation of the self. Little else can cause that so efficiently.
How in the fuck do you know that?
You don't.
You're just gassing.
The truth is if you carry on about sex abuse that way, and keep telling people that that is how they should react, they will react precisely that way.
It's a self fulfilling prophesy.
ShoutingThomas, Climb down off your Mount. Say a perfect Act of Contrition and 5 Hail Marys and go visit your opus dei buddy Robert Hansen @ the Supermax. He's a sexual pervert like yourself. The Catholic Church devolved into the worlds biggest pedophile club and sycophants like yourself are why. And, since you fail to reveal your personal story it leads this investigator to think you're a pedophile who found his home..The Catholic Church!! What say you Saint ShoutingThomas?
ndspinelli,
You're a fake.
Quit gassing about your stupid credentials. You're unemployed and you're sitting at home with nothing to do but argue on the internet.
Go fuck yourself.
My academic credentials make yours look silly. I'm retired, which is why I've got time to joust with a moron like you.
So, the dignity of the individual is being subordinated to the needs, real or perceived, of the group to keep silent?
Not sure how surprising this should be in the case of the Occupiers, but it does illustrate how easy it is to become exactly what they thought they were railing against. Man, meet the Man.
I say you are monumentally stupid, ndspinelli,
You just exposed yourself to a defamation lawsuit, and your IP is traceable.
You are demonstrably an idiot.
Hope you've got a big house and a big bank account, ndspnelli.
Of course, you don't... which is why you're gassing like some fucking idiot on a weblog.
The OWS in Madison looked pretty pathetic when I drove by yesterday. Wonder how they're doing in the cold rain today.
OW undoubtedly has serious trust issues with the police ,considering the many instances of police brutality. The police have actually been sending homeless vagrants into the OW camps, nice, huh?
If the grown OW women choose not to report to an entity that they don't trust with good reason, well then it's their choice.
"They undermine the foundation of their protest if they subordinate the individual to the group."
No, subordination to the group is the foundation of their protest.
Althouse, it's time for you to deal with the negative repercussion of the feminist sex abuse hysteria you keep jazzing up.
With Allred on the Cain case, I say with some certainty that this strategy of using false accusation is a coordinated Democratic Party campaign, probably originating in the White House.
As you can see with this fool, ndspnelli, accusations of sex abuse are now thrown about every time some asshole gets backed into a corner. Thanks to that idiot for demonstrating precisely that.
The sexual harassment and sex abuse hysterias have become little more than weapons to use against people and public figures you want to destroy.
As I said before, the sex abuse hysteria launched by feminists, and now going on its 4th decade, is the perfect pretext for government intrusion into every part of our lives.
"How in the fuck do you know that?"
It's effects are part of what I do for a living. Been dealing with the aftermath of abuse for most of my career.
I have seen people deteriorate after seeming to have escaped their abusive childhoods without scars.
There are people who can experience few long-term effects from sexual abuse. but they are not the majority, and their abilities do not mean others are somehow weak or insane or moneygrubbing or faking.
I agree there has been a witch hunt against men for 50 years in this country.
But that fact does not negate the reality of sexual abuse, or alter its meaning. I have no doubt I shan't convince you of this, however.
I believe I struck a nerve, ShoutingThomas. It's a pretty basic investigative technique. And, your knowledge of the law is very weak. Get some help dude. like you, I'm retired..taking a case now and then. We spend winters in San Diego, I'm not wealthy but we did alright. I have my original wife and I know who I am. You're a bully, and I eat losers like you for lunch. We're all still waiting for your personal story..please edify us all. You can't bully or bullshit me Saint ShoutingThomas, people MUCH better than you have tried and failed.
Ndspinelli, not that I think Shouting can't defend himself adequately, but accusing someone sight unseen of something like sexual abuse is over the top. Go visit his blog, get to " know" him a bit, I think you'll find you owe him an apology.
You dumb fuck, spinelli, what you've done is expose yourself as an absolute fool.
First, you accuse me of being a pedophile, then you crow that you've "struck a nerve."
You're a complete fool and a complete imposter.
You've never held a job with any degree of responsibility in your life.
You are a complete fake.
In Dallas an OWS protester was arrested for sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl involved in the protest. How do we know if their aren't more child victims if sexual assaults are handled "internally" and not reported to the police? You seem to ignore the possibility of child victims at OWS encampments.
@ndspinelli,
I agree with much of what you've posted, but the numbers I've seen suggest the Catholic church had no more or less pederasts than, say, the public school system.
What it did have was a significant number of actively gay clergy which, as you know, is not the same as pederasty or pedophilia.
"In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources.
The conclusion: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[xxi]
Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent."
Blogger lost this the first time.
The answer is so simple as to be obvious, Althouse.
You can sue Penn State. You can sue the Church.
You can't sue OWS. Or government schools.
And if ndspinelli thinks the Church is more of a pedophile club than any government school district in the country, I have a nice bridge in Manhattan for sale.
I've got to thank this fucking spenilli fool for demonstrative just how frequently and mindlessly people are flinging around charges of sexual abuse and harassment for no other reason than to advance their political agenda.
You're a complete fucking idiot, spenilli, but a useful one.
The OWS in Madison looked pretty pathetic when I drove by yesterday.
I actually saw some tents in Little Rock this weekend! At first I wondered if there was a festival or something going on that I hadn’t heard about and then I saw a dumb sign and realized who they were. I think there were 5 or 6 tents (which looked pretty nice and were probably made in china and sold by corporations!)
The police have actually been sending homeless vagrants into the OW camps, nice, huh?
I fail to see the difference between real homeless people and the fake Occupy Wherever people. Is it because the latter actually have homes to go home to?
OW undoubtedly has serious trust issues with the police ,considering the many instances of police brutality.
Until I hear about bands of rapist cops, I think they would be better off with the police. If they are too dumb to see that, that’s their decision.
But that fact does not negate the reality of sexual abuse, or alter its meaning.
Indeed.
How do we know that priests aren't still an using little boys,or maybe coaches, who have organizations that continue to deal with it internally?
It shouldn't happen, it's wrong, but unlike the Church and kids sports, kids don't usually attend OW protests and if some idiot pRent brings them along, the organizers should tell them to go home. It's not child's play.
"If the grown OW women choose not to report to an entity that they don't trust with good reason, well then it's their choice."
That point is not being argued. What is being argued is if other people who have knowledge of the incident ignoring it in order to protect the "movement." OWS and its perception to others would actually benefit if they cooperated with police to rid the place of some of the dregs that hang out there. Such cooperation would also stop the police from turning a blind eye themselves and they would probably stop "encouraging" certain things.....but OWS is an US vs. THEM group of folks who like feeling victimized (as a group identity, not as actual horrible actions to an individual), no matter how "inclusive" they claim to be.
"With Allred on the Cain case, I say with some certainty that this strategy of using false accusation is a coordinated Democratic Party campaign, probably originating in the White House."
Yup; I think this is true.
ShoutingThomas, When people make general assertions about a personal history that gives them a moral superiority on a topic, and then fail to back it up..well dude, that's a red flag. Then, when that same person defends a religion blindly that manifestly defiled children and families, it raises another even bigger red flag. Then that person goes ballistic when pushed..the biggest red flag of all.
When I simply said I was spiritual but didn't believe in organized religion a week or so ago I was called a stupid asshole by my fellow Christian, ShoutingThomas. That put you on my radar. I didn't shoot back. I did the Christian thing and asked for an explanation. I'm still waiting. I said then, and I say now, I'm sorry for your pain and I pray for you. I REALLY MEAN THAT!
I spent my entire career digging out truth. I confront lies, bullshit, bullying w/o fail. I do it to people who aren't used to that. I'm really an easygoing guy by nature. Virtually all my posts corroborate that. The exception is when I smell lies, bullshit, etc. Then, my fellow Christian..I DON'T GIVE ONE FUCKING INCH. As stated previously, you picked the wrong motherfucker for your horseshit..the wrong motherfucker. My history is easily researched. I don't use an alias or hide behind anonymity. You're spinning out of control..get on that bike my fellow Christian..ride 35 miles today.
Have to agree with Insta.
If it were Conservatives ravishing women in tents, it would be a scandal.
The Establishment Media doesn't want to make their kids look bad.
Ann Althouse said...
Adults have an obligation to protect children and to stop predators from moving on to other children. When the victim is an adult, she (or he) is capable of consenting to sexual touchings, and depending on the circumstances, there can be room for interpretation and confusion. That may, under some circumstances, justify talking to someone who feels victimized about whether to perceive what happened as a crime and to try to find a resolution that does not bring the police into the situation. So there is a difference between Occupy [Your City] and the Penn State and Catholic Church scandals.
Disagree. (emphasis mine, BTW)
There was a time in this country, long after women got the vote, when men felt an obligation to protect women and to stop predators from moving on to other women.
That it doesn't happen anymore is the work of the Occupation and their ideological forebears, like Commie apparatchik, Betty Friedan.
Pogo, Although I don't accept your Protestant/Catholic statistics as gospel, for the sake of argument here let's say they're accurate. Your case is then akin to what we hear every election from both parties, "Yeah..we may suck, but not as much as those other guys." A damning w/ very faint praise, as it were.
The great minds of Oafhouse at work.
Miss AA is correct that it's a completely different situation. Sandusky should be like, executed, ASAP and Pedturno should be charged.
Re the OWS, any women brave or stupid enough to attend a street riot, and unfortunately get assaulted-- they can report the crime, and take it from there (and there are street people/perps hanging with the protesters--ie, they've been warned)
That only took you three tries, Jolly. You're improving.
"A damning w/ very faint praise, as it were."
It sheds light on more accurate data than the prevailing mythology permits.
That is, the Catholic church has had evildoers, like all religions and the public school system, but was not predominant among them.
So it damns them all, no praise, faint or otherwise, and rejects demonization based on false data.
There were some "Occupy Trick or Treat" folks walking around last week on Beggar's Night. "Some" = 3
The mayor here in St Louis is meeting with the "occupiers" today. He's gone public stating that they've had their time, they've had their leniency (they are breaking several laws) and it's time to wrap it up. The protestors have publicly stated that they will not fight with police, but will come back again and again as soon as the police have moved on.
The meeting today, apparently, is to get the thing to end peacefully and orderly. Tough to do when a faction of the occupiers has promised to set up shop directly under the Arch. Dat der is federal land. Not sure how that's going to shake out.
On a related note, the local TP reps are making noise, much as other around the country, that they were required to take out permits and spend thousands of dollars. Not so much hay to be made after the fact, but I foresee very heated scenes coming next spring/summer as the TP rallies and is forced to, again, pay fees and fill out forms.
Pogo, I agree w/ you..I'm just not prepared to make a judgement on one study.
From my personal experience as a good Catholic boy, and my professional experience[defending the Catholic Church in sex abuse cases as a PI..I surmise I was chosen because of my Catholic high school and college resume] I can tell you peophilia was, and is still rampant in the Church. This dates back to the late 1950's from my personal knowledge and the cases I've worked go back to the 1960's. I have worked one case involving a pedophile public school teacher..none involving Protestant faiths, so I can't speak to those.
What I find by far those most horrific part of the Catholic scandals are the incredible lengths and enormous amount of money spent covering it up. And, that continues unabated. Well..it is being abated somewhat because bishops are now finally being indicted.
At its core the Catholic Church has some of the most important values I've learned..I live those values. But, the church that helped frame me has lost its soul.
"by far those most horrific part of the Catholic scandals are the incredible lengths and enormous amount of money spent covering it up."
No disagreement there. A second evil done. Screwtape is smiling.
Screwtape is smiling.
Incredibly well-written book.
Shouting Thomas is quite right. I am an adult who recognizes the fact that I have no duty whatsoever to protect any child or anybody else, much less a "sacred" duty. Indeed, I feel it more my duty to point out the wanton breeding that is causing most of the problems we are suffering, like shortages of water, clean air, songbirds and other species.
Statistics have repeatedly shown that child abuse is overwhelmingly perpetrated by a child's parent or other relative or by a priest or teacher known to the child, not by a stranger. In view of the fact that cops are more likely than the general public to be abusers of family members, children should be taught to report any abuse to a stranger, not a cop, parent, teacher or priest, for chrissake.
Amerikans are sex-obsessed idiots: we rational folks tire of hearing of "brutal rapes" and of the suffering of "innocent children." I can't wait for the report of a non-brutal rape of some tragedy occurring to a guilty child!
If kids are innocent, they are also innocent of campaigning for goodness, justice and truth. I am guilty of that, which makes my life worth a whole hell of a lot more than that of an innocent child. By the way, who is it that is contaminating the grocery-cart handles of this country with fecal matter?
Shouting Thomas is quite right. I am an adult who recognizes the fact that I have no duty whatsoever to protect any child or anybody else, much less a "sacred" duty. Indeed, I feel it more my duty to point out the wanton breeding that is causing most of the problems we are suffering, like shortages of water, clean air, songbirds and other species.
Statistics have repeatedly shown that child abuse is overwhelmingly perpetrated by a child's parent or other relative or by a priest or teacher known to the child, not by a stranger. In view of the fact that cops are more likely than the general public to be abusers of family members, children should be taught to report any abuse to a stranger, not a cop, parent, teacher or priest, for chrissake.
Amerikans are sex-obsessed idiots: we rational folks tire of hearing of "brutal rapes" and of the suffering of "innocent children." I can't wait for the report of a non-brutal rape of some tragedy occurring to a guilty child!
If kids are innocent, they are also innocent of campaigning for goodness, justice and truth. I am guilty of that, which makes my life worth a whole hell of a lot more than that of an innocent child. By the way, who is it that is contaminating the grocery-cart handles of this country with fecal matter?
"They undermine the foundation of their protest if they subordinate the individual to the group"
Not if the group claims to act for common good, universal justice, and samesuch abstracts.
Did you miss that these protesters assume for themselves the right to represent and speek for 99% of the population, although they hardly represent 20%. Reminds me the countries of communist/authoritarian/fascist paradise, where dear leaders claimed to represent all of population.
Shouting Thomas is quite right. I am an adult who recognizes the fact that I have no duty whatsoever to protect any child or anybody else, much less a "sacred" duty. Indeed, I feel it more my duty to point out the wanton breeding that is causing most of the problems we are suffering, like shortages of water, clean air, songbirds and other species.
Statistics have repeatedly shown that child abuse is overwhelmingly perpetrated by a child's parent or other relative or by a priest or teacher known to the child, not by a stranger. In view of the fact that cops are more likely than the general public to be abusers of family members, children should be taught to report any abuse to a stranger, not a cop, parent, teacher or priest, for chrissake.
Amerikans are sex-obsessed idiots: we rational folks tire of hearing of "brutal rapes" and of the suffering of "innocent children." I can't wait for the report of a non-brutal rape of some tragedy occurring to a guilty child!
If kids are innocent, they are also innocent of campaigning for goodness, justice and truth. I am guilty of that, which makes my life worth a whole hell of a lot more than that of an innocent child. By the way, who is it that is contaminating the grocery-cart handles of this country with fecal matter?
jimbino, are you an officer w/ NAMBLA, or just a member? And, let me take a wild guess, no friends and you still live w/ mom..although she's mummified and sitting in a rocking chair in your basement.
What is it about child abuse that brings out the assholes on Althouse?
Crack & Bagoh20 supported the belting judge vociferously and heaped abuse on his victim, and ST turns into a snarling jackass over the covering up of the buggering of 10 year olds. Weird shit.
Yesterday ST called me a liar for drawing a logical inference from his stated tirade against feminism wrt law enforcement and sex abuse of children. What's your beef? All we hear is hostility to social & legal norms. What should society do about sexual predators, esp. those that target minors?
I imagine everyone here agrees innocent lives were ruined by the hysteria in the 90's, such as the McMartin case, that WA county, the Amiraults in MA. No doubt there were many others that didn't make the news. False abuse accusations in custody cases are widespread enough to be discussed on L&O SVU.
Or..does jimbino really mean you're J, or are you Saintshoutinthomas, or are you really Carol Herman, or the tooth fairy, or Herman Munster??
Or are you really Elvis, or JFK..no no ...the J stands for Jerry..you're Jerry Sandusky!!
Jimbino, I'm not sure I want to hear your ideas about what is good and just.
The Catholic Church devolved into the worlds biggest pedophile club
Public education has had more of an issue with pedophilia than the Catholic Church has ever dreamed of.
Note: This isn't praising the Catholic Church.
The police have actually been sending homeless vagrants into the OW camps, nice, huh?
How could they tell the difference between two varieties of vagrants? OWS openly doesn't want the help of the police and the police --- well, it's not their job to make the OWS crowd more comfy.
I only care about the Occupy thing here because it is in my backyard. If NYC, or Oakland, or Madison want to allow these vagrants to camp there indefinitely, well, they earn what they get. It seems anybody with DIRECT interaction with the OWS for more than a day want them gone for good.
..which is why their supporters are never around for more than a day.
Public education has had more of an issue with pedophilia than the Catholic Church has ever dreamed of
All I hear about are high school aged kids. Is there much of a problem with 13 & under?
Whoa Jimbino,
What's the matter, did a eight year old turn down your offer to coach them privately? I have to agree with Spinelli here. You consider your life worth more than some innocent child's, yet you want to protect songbirds and the environment, so what are kids an alien species? We all all children of the earth so to speak.
11/8/11 6:37 PM
What role does political correctness and an exaggerated sensitivity to any possible slight of homosexuality have to do with the Penn State (or even Catholic Church) situation? Did Joe Paterno consider Sandusky to be a homosexual?
Critics will jump all over such a suggestion declaring that "these are crimes against children!" Which they indeed are, and which drive a great deal of the outrage. But that doesn't displace all possible room for discussion of the homosexual nature of the PA State crimes and the abuse in the Catholic Church, which was almost exclusively man on boy.
If you want to suggest that homosexuality has nothing to do with it, defend your position.
"What I find by far those most horrific part of the Catholic scandals are the incredible lengths and enormous amount of money spent covering it up."
Exactly. Obviously only a small minority of priests are abusers and there are always a few bad apples in any barrel. The larger problem was that not only was it covered up but the coverup reached well into the hierarchy. Very analogous to the Penn State situation.
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