Quoted in "Strike at Eiffel Tower after female staff ‘told to be out of sight’/Women workers at the Paris landmark were allegedly told to make themselves scarce for a visit by representatives of a Hindu religious organisation" (London Times).
The Hindu group is BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha, which, we are told, "is close to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ruling conservative Hindu nationalist party."
Who owns and operates the Eiffel Tower? You might wonder: Isn't it the French government? It is the government of the City of Paris, operating through a public company called the Société d’Exploitation de la Tour Eiffel. The Hindu group asked the Society of Exploitation to limit its interaction with women, and the Society told its female employees to make themselves invisible.
ADDED: Here's a gift link to the NYT article on this story. Excerpt:
Laïcité, the French concept of secularism that separates church and state, is an enduring if oft-debated aspect of life in the country....
Emmanuel Grégoire, the mayor of Paris, said there would be an investigation into the incident.
The BAPS temple in Paris apologized in a statement posted on Monday night without commenting on the exclusion of female employees. “To the best of our knowledge, at no point was anyone prevented access to the Eiffel Tower,” it said. “Nevertheless, we sincerely apologize for any pain or inconvenience caused.”...
The group was founded in the 18th century in Gujarat, Mr. Modi’s home state.
“Today, when such a grand temple has been built in France, it will enrich France’s diversity, and it will also energize the cultural relations between India and France,” Mr. Modi said in a video message during the temple’s inauguration on Sunday.
Posts
76 comments:
You're considered "far right"
If you care about women's rights.
In Switzerland - they banned the burqa
Such an “ULTRA ULTRA FAR FAR RIGHT” party.
'...No dogma, no religion is above the laws of the Republic."...'
Really? How about the treasured views on unfettered illegal immigration of unsuitable foreign riff raff, as advocated by the progressive members of the Republic's leadership team? Is illegal immigration by the millions a dogma that is also included in that solemn pronouncement? I'd be offering that back up in their faces at every opportunity, if I were French.
BAPs? Like with Halle Berry.
I expected this to be about Muslims demanding, but instead it's Hindus asking. Still, it's easy to forget that Muslims aren't the only ones who struggle to fit in in western societies.
Calm down, Mildred.
The Hindu group is BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha have it all wrong. Seeing women isnt the problem. Its hearing them. Budda-ding.
And take my wife - please. I'm here all weekend.
Middle eastern cultures/religions often subjugate women and consider women as lesser. Not just Islam. Although - Islam is the most violent of the subjugators.
Bergé‘s position is because the request was from Hindus. Had it been a Muslim organization he’d be saying something about respecting religious differences.
Hmmm...could we make the same request here? You know, like for murder trials of postpartum mommies? Maybe for elections too?
This is the very definition of a media made event. Some crazy hindu group that no one cares about says "Please no women - we're Hindu" and suddenly the French Government and le Pen are racing to the microphones to jabber about how Strong, Noble, women cant be "erased" (and please vote for us next election ladies).
Its a fun topic, it got me to comment. But France has a lot of problems. And it doesn't need Hindu immigrants. But lets get some cheap shots in about strong french women.
The French should say to these Hindus: Visit our country and follow our rules. No special deals for you!
Funny how the ones in charge always seem to want to compel the people over whom they rule to submit to the exotic foreigners, be they moslems, hindus or black africans. It's almost as if they want to engage in some kind of ritual humiliation of the native citizens of their countries to make up for the "sins of colonization" (previously known as "civilizing the savages" and a good thing) in decades past. America, of course has its own brand of citizen humiliation in the form of "affirmative action."
If some crazy jewish group of Orthodox jews had requested something similar, it would be approved without comment and anyone objecting would be a hater.
If some Christian group had made a similar crazy request, the Effial tower would've laughed in their face and told them to take a hike.
Muslims asking for the same thing? Probably would've gotten the Hindu treatment.
The West must come to the realization that these other non-Western cultures are failures and add nothing to Western life. And, no, the food isn't that great.
If Africa and India were so great, then why do they want to come to the West?
They want to come to the West because we have a better standard of living. Our better standard of living was created by Western values. These people come to the West and bring their shitty culture and drag us down.
Sauce for the goose. All visiting delegations to India should demand they clean the place up.
Backwards. If the Hindu choose to visit France, then they should expect and adhere to French norms. There’s too much weight being given to foreigners. They’re foreign for a reason.
The French are even more crazy about "Diversity" than Americans. Unlike the English before WWII, you could become a French citizen if you an African or an arab member of the French Empire. And then move to France.
Go look at their national soccer team - it has one white Frenchman. IRC, Le Pen wants to limit immigration, but the other parties are "Hey, everyone move here".
Here are the BAPS beliefs for women:
-Historical Reforms: The founder, Bhagwan Swaminarayan, fought against 18th-century practices like widow burning (sati), female infanticide, and forced dowries.
-Promoting Education: He encouraged education and literacy for women and allowed them to manage family businesses and properties.Active Participation: Women make up a majority of BAPS followers and participate through dedicated women's and youth wings.
-Gender Separation and Monastic RulesTemple Segregation: BAPS temples and assembly halls maintain strict physical separation between men and women, including separate entrances and seating areas.
-Monk Vows: Male monks (sadhus) take strict vows of celibacy that forbid them from touching, speaking to, or looking directly at women
“The Hindu group asked the Society of Exploitation to limit its interaction with women, and the Society told its female employees to make themselves invisible.”
Ridiculous. How can you exploit them if you can’t see them? I don’t think anyone really wants women to be invisible. Inaudible, though….
I like it. A worthy opportunity to offend savages.
Feminine gender... fication of the female sex under a Pro-Choice edifice. Abort.
This sounds exceedingly weird. I'm not a religious expert but have never heard of Hindus practicing this kind of separation of sexes as a general practice. A quick search of mine agrees with RCOs post, and the almost gratuitous reference to Modi makes me suspicious that we're getting a curated overreaction to a more benign request
Gender equality? Is a sexually-oriented dogmatic assembly of parts and behaviors that are visible and hidden, large and small, round and pointed.
"Bergé‘s position is because the request was from Hindus. Had it been a Muslim organization he’d be saying something about respecting religious differences."
What I came here to write.
"We don't ask women to erase themselves" we do it for them.
Good for the staff for striking over this.
If you've taken a vow not to directly look at women, it's up to you to avert your eyes, not try to control women.
Don't gaze. Don't stare. That's the virtuous approach to that vow. Requiring women to get out of your view is a perversion of the idea.
According to my sources, these guys aren't supposed to look directly at women, but side eye is okay for side boob at Christmas time.
I anybody else having trouble posting comments? I'm getting an error message.
The more I think about it, the more ridiculous this "strike" seems. If the positions were reversed and some group of religious hindu women had showed up and asked the men be "kept out of sight" would any man give a damn? I doubt it.
But then, I'd bet most of the women at the Effial Tower are bored with their jobs and don't really care about it. While most of the men do care about their jobs and take what they do seriously. So this is just an opportunity for the women to have some excitement and feel gurl power.
As for the Hindu group asking for no wimmen. Well they can ask. I don't blame them for asking. They aren't forcing the Effial tower to do anything.
My husband and I were talking about this (more or less) yesterday, with regard to Gov. Hochul's decision to wear a head covering to the Islamic Center she visited recently.
I've been low-key supportive of Western women's wearing head coverings when visiting countries where it's a legal requirement (or even a strongly held custom) for women to cover their hair. It has always seemed a little precious when it's journalists doing it - you're there to throw wide the curtains and expose uncomfortable truths to the light of day, but you don't want to risk a fine (I mean, maybe I'm wrong in practice, but a foreign woman's failure to cover her hair doesn't seem like a stoning offense). But it's been ok with me.
But an American governor's covering her hair to protect the delicate sensibilities of observant Muslims, while on American soil... Where is the line, for me? Covering your hair isn't a big thing. Men's wearing a kippeh into a synagogue, whether or not they're Jewish, is analogous. So is wearing "appropriate" clothing when visiting a Catholic Church or shrine. For that matter, so is wearing "appropriate" clothing in a restaurant with a dress code. You don't want to change your manner of dress, don't go there.
But there IS a line. When the place you're visiting belongs to people whose beliefs don't allow for your holding the position you hold - for instance, if the teachings of this Islamic Center include not allowing women in leadership roles over men, something about which I have no specific information - then I think I'm in the camp of "American first, respectful second." A little defiance is in order, just to make the point.
It sounds as if Paris agrees with me, at least in this instance.
Certain Amerindian tribes have tried to exclude female anthropologists from examining skeletal remains, or at least menstruating ones. It didn't work (for now).
I just wrote that "[w]hen the place you're visiting belongs to people whose beliefs don't allow for your holding the position you hold... a little defiance is in order, just to make the point." An example: a female Episcopal priest wears her collar into a Catholic church. No Catholic priest would expect otherwise.
But we could expect certain leaders and adherents of other faiths to disallow her entry altogether, or at minimum to demand that she not wear the trappings of her religious leadership. We need to decide, first as Americans and then as the inheritors of Western civilization, what we're willing to do to demonstrate our commitment to tolerance.
Where the left struggles, I think, is in how they think of "tolerance": it seems always to mean "surrender," "capitulation," up to "self-flagellation" - never to mean "you do you, I'll do me."
Can transwomen come out in the open during the visit?
Gov. Hochul's decision to wear a head covering to the Islamic Center she visited recently..
this Actually makes Perfect Sense..
we fought a WAR with Islam (which they started)..
and WE LOST, big time. Europe is now Moslem, as is Michigan.
New York City is ruled by devout Moslems, as is MOST of the rest of the state. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Ann Althouse said...
If you've taken a vow not to directly look at women, it's up to you to avert your eyes, not try to control women..
now do Fasting at Ramadan.
Schools now PROHIBIT the sale of food during Ramadan,
because the smell of it is tempting to Moslems
"Laïcité, the French concept of secularism that separates church and state, is an enduring if oft-debated aspect of life in the country...."
It endured when the targets were Christians. They accepted their demise years ago. Not so for non-Western religions. They will not abide.
Eyes up here. Not there.
Seinfeld: Cleavage etiquette
I thought Althouse's most fervent commenter specifically looked for posts mentioning Jews, so he expound on his pathological hatred for them. But no, he'll just go to any topic -- even Hindus -- and make it all about his pathological hatred of Jews. Our host may not care, but it makes reading this blog particularly unpleasant for some of us (I'm not sure why it isn't all of us). It's why I seldom do it anymore.
I'll repeat, the reference to Modi's conservative government makes me think we're getting a curated overreaction, apparently shared by a bunch of people, to what was probably a request for male tour guides. I can't help noting that the report specifically says the Eiffel Tower administrative organization issued the "women should be invisible" order. That's not a quote from the Hindu group.
I used to do some work for Genesis, the Korean car company. I worked a setup on the 9th hole of the Genesis Open in Los Angeles. One day before the tournament started, one of the vice presidents wanted to come check out the booth. He asked that all the women be removed before he came. This was 2020. Blew my mind.
As usual, our resident Jew hater presents a false generalization about Orthodox Jews. And then if no one corrects his nonsense do people accept it’s true and he’s an expert on Judaism?
Or do people know by now what this is? It’s pathological.
“If you've taken a vow not to directly look at women, it's up to you to avert your eyes, not try to control women.”
Spanky and Alfalfa had this all sussed years ago, with their “He-Man Woman Haters Club”.
As usual, our resident Jew hater presents a false generalization about Orthodox Jews.
Why don't you explain why its false.
Basically, anytime the magic words "Jew" or "Israel" pop up, we get the IDF brigade showing up to police and censor.
Dude, seek help.
Funny how those "magic words" always seem to pop up in your comments. No matter what the subject.
This happened to me TWICE working at Disney. I was working at Expedition Everest at the time, and they visit yearly (or they did then). When they came to ride the roller coaster, they required all female staff to leave the loading platform, and only men could check their lapbars and send the train.
I don’t think averting one’s eyes would be a good solution. There would be Hindu bodies flying off the tower from trying not to bump into one another.
It’s fascinating to me how every single culture is based on men being terrified of women. That there is man’s original sin. I think women’s original sin is self hatred perhaps based on man’s terror.
“Basically, anytime the magic words "Jew" or "Israel" pop up, we get the IDF brigade showing up to police and censor.”
Two of the most reliably dark amusements are watching narcissists invariably divert any conversation on any subject back to a discussion of themselves, and watching Jew-haters invariably turn any conversation on any subject back to the Jews.
Medusa weeps
King a da Jews, mom!
"Hebrew National Hotdogs"!
Because the Rabbi's wouldn't let you eat anything bad.
Thanks Rabbis!
Oddly, Hindu temples are often covered with reliefs of naked buxom shaktis. CC, JSM
Mosby,
Yeah but they don't look at them.
'..."In France, we do not ask women to erase themselves. No dogma, no religion is above the laws of the Republic."...'
To their credit, France does have some rather particular laws against niqābs and other articles of clothing covering the face - unlike a few others in the region.
"we fought a WAR with Islam (which they started)..
and WE LOST, big time. Europe is now Moslem, as is Michigan."
I must have missed that. I don't think we ever declared war on a Religion. Certainly Bush 43 made a big point of saying we were against Sadaam and not Muslims in general. Probably because the most muslim country in the world - Saudi Arabia was our ally. And still is.
Some Hindu sects and Muslims share unpleasant cultural attitudes towards women. Of course, France prosecuted and convicted Bridgett Bardot for merely objecting to any of this behavior invading France.
Pick a side.
Christopher B: learn more about the religion. It's not exactly a secret.
Did not VP Pence do something similarities - also part of Trump administration!!//
Not sure why bad behavior by Hindus is turned into concern about Muslim immigration. Would France be better off if 20 million Africans - nominally Christian - migrated to France?
The French problem is their elite believe in open borders and that's not just a Muslim problem.
Not so long ago, there were men's clubs in cities like London that never allowed women to cross the threshold. There may still be a few men only clubs around.
Western tourists expect other civilization to welcome their own ways of dressing and behaving, so I'm not sure about the French getting on their high horse about this.
"Failed" societies and civilizations have a way of going on for centuries and millennial. Will the "successful" Western societies still be around centuries from now? Too soon to tell.
A thread like this about Hindus is going to attract people wanting to bring Muslims or Jews or Christians into the discussion. Buddhists? Shinto? Is anyone else left out?
I’m not sure why Hindu base cultures get a pass. There are temples today, where young women from the lower castes are placed for the pleasure of men from the higher castes. This has the perimeter of religion tied to it, and the girls that are stuffed into these harem houses start at very young ages.
The Hindu caste system is probably one of the most evil things any culture has ever come up with.
*Probably because the most muslim country in the world - Saudi Arabia ..."*
No. It isn't. Indonesia is. SA isn't even in the top 10 with regards to the largest number of Muslims.
No. It isn't. Indonesia is. SA isn't even in the top 10 with regards to the largest number of Muslims.
Thanks Guy. Dumbest interpetation possible. But it allows you to play Gotcha! Which I suppose was your pathetic goal.
There's a certain place in Saudi Arabia that makes it uber-Muslim. Guess what its called.
Well, if they don't want to look at Frenchwomen, I will.
IIRC, women who have audiences with the Pope are supposed to cover their hair.
Lazarus said...
A thread like this about Hindus is going to attract people wanting to bring Muslims or Jews or Christians into the discussion. Buddhists? Shinto? Is anyone else left out?
Zoroastrians..............................fuckers.
The thing I like about western culture is you can believe in whatever you want and I'm not forced to participate.
Anthony said...
“Certain Amerindian tribes have tried to exclude female anthropologists from examining skeletal remains, or at least menstruating ones.”
How do skeletons menstruate? Is this a feminist stigmata sort of thing? Shouldn’t a priest be called instead?
This was such a missed opportunity for feminist brigades of fat gray haired women going topless in protest, topped only by doing the same at a Muslim event. I would google to see if such had been done already, but I haven't read about any mass murders in France of fat gray haired topless women, so I'm pretty sure that faux-religious version of the heckler's veto is working just fine in France. I, for one, applaud the famously self-preservative nature of feminism among its most fervent supporters, who are willing to give anything for the cause, as long as nothing is taken from them for supporting it.
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