hey old people? i have a Serious Question; do y'all remember having terrible forest fire smoke, back in the old days? i mean, back in the later half of the 20th century? or even back at the turn of the century? now it seems like Canada is burning.. Every year. was it like this back then?
I wonder what changed? (of course it MUST BE global warming!) or.. maybe it was that back in the olden days, Canada had a government?
I wonder how much furniture, how many homes, could have been built but for the desire to “protect the forests” and leave them pristine. Now homes, furniture, energy are all more expensive and we still have awful emissions ruining our air. Take a bow progressives. I’m sure the marxists are thrilled and laughing.
I remember everyone in the neighborhood burning their leaves in the backyard each fall in big trash cans with lots of holes in the sides to let air in.
I wonder how much furniture, how many homes, could have been built but for the desire to “protect the forests” and leave them pristine.
Go look up some photos of Wisconsin or Michigan in the late 1800's and see how wonderful clearcutting of the entire northeast and midwest forests were. For people who complain about windmills and solar panels spoiling the view, you don't seem to like trees much either.
I grew up in So Cal, and from the window in my parents house in Rancho Park we could watch the Santa Monica Mountains burn off, as they did regularly, in addition to the regular old 1950-60s smog.
Much of the forest in the West (and much of Canada I suspect) is fire climax community, which means it grows up to a certain point to which the fuel density becomes so high that a burn is inevitable, it's just waiting for a source of ignition. And it regrows quite handily from the ashes. In the good old days, the Indians, excuse me, Native Americans, would provide the spark either accidentally or deliberately (freshly burned land is better for farming and grazing). Now the first peoples are on the dole, and they don't bother anymore, and government would really rather hand out money to buy votes than to manage forests to prevent huge fires.
gilbar, I would have to say that I don't remember it being in the news back in the day. I haven't lived in areas close enough to the Canadian border to be directly affected so those folks might have a different perspective. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Without the AGW scam as a hook, and the impact to the media centers on the East Coast, this might have been a regional story. There may also need to be a specific set of antecedents such as a high fuel load from poor management in eastern Canadian forests, coupled with a weather pattern that caused drought and pushes the smoke south to the US. If the fires were occuring in western Canada there would be much less impact.
Of course not you idiot. Can’t you take a joke ? And by the way, how do you know the AQI was 200? And you failed to define whether the exposure was 2 minutes or twenty years. So your whole argument is what’s call a false equivalence.
I wonder what changed? (of course it MUST BE global warming!)
Because of the government of the olden days and global warming is why we are having the extreme fires we are having today. The U.S. is having as a bad a fire season as Canada. And Trump has slashed the forest service and other agencies responsible for maintaining our wild lands.
"2026 Fire in Europe at record lows Halfway through 2026, Europe has burned less than in any year 2012-25 Every continent is below average, and Africa and the Americas are at record lows Media only showing stuff burning leaves us badly informed"
Just for fun I asked Grok to give me the mean temperature of the contiguous 48 states in 1955, when I recalled people burning their leaves in the backyard each year, with 2025.
+2.0°F (about +1.1°C) warmer today than in 1955.
This is just about equal to the annual temperature difference between Baltimore and Philadelphia. And we all know how deadly it is to live in Baltimore.
The blue states of Washington, Oregon, and Colorado also have forest fires, but Quebec alone has more forest fires then more in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and NW territory. A lot more.
I grew up in Cleveland where my father walked to work for his job in the steel mills. The direction the wind was blowing determined whether or not laundry could be hung to dry outside. Too much red dust in the air. We didn’t have burning forests but the river did catch fire. I think this was before the AQI was implemented. Didn’t have to walk uphill both ways to school because the ground was pretty level. Our school did not provide masks nor was our door recess ever cancelled.
The best way to fight forest fires is not to have them by maintaining the forest. Loggers have a valued interest in not having their product destroyed by fires.
I saw a report last week that said there were more than 800 fires burning throughout Canada. There is no way that lighting could have caused that many fires across multiple provinces at approximately the same timeframe. Nor is it likely that careless campers were responsible for all the rest. The rapid spread and wide distribution suggests that there are arsonists involved, and possibly coordinated.
Canada isn't the only country experiencing such widespread wildfires. In recent years, the US western states, southern Europe, and Australia have also seen spikes in such cases. I'm not asserting they are all being caused by arsonists, whether domestic or otherwise, but I'm certain that there has been a greater increase in the number and distribution of nutty, hostile human groups than an increase in lightning storms.
My husband grew up here in NE WI and I have friends who’ve lived here a long time or who have summered here for decades. To a person, they don’t remember this persistent summer smoke being an issue - like it’s been the past few years.
"The best way to fight forest fires is not to have them by maintaining the forest."
Look at a map of Canada that shows where the forest is and how big it is. It's absurd to expect them to "maintain" it. Are we "maintaining" the Yellowstone caldera?
"The rapid spread and wide distribution suggests that there are arsonists involved, and possibly coordinated."
Do you have any idea how big and remote Canada is once you get a couple hundred miles north of the border? It would take dedicated, and extremely fit, arsonists to trek across Northern Canada setting fires.
I wonder how much impact the falloff of timbering over the past decades plays into this. Hasn't the area harvested dropped something like 40 percent since the mid-ish aughts? This is completely out of my area of expertise, so I'm just throwing this out, because I'm curious. I'm happy to be educated.
I mean, I'm assuming that the logging industry helped maintain the forests as part of their harvest management. Perhaps this is a poor assumption. But if it's true, perhaps this has an impact as well as other factors?
'Look at a map of Canada that shows where the forest is and how big it is. It's absurd to expect them to "maintain" it.'
The continuity of the forested area is the problem, especially where logging is disallowed. And it is possible to manage forestland in ways that limit the risk to fires spreading and becoming problematic. Forest lands that are actively managed by timber and paper companies have clear cut areas, and part of that planning is specifically to limit the spread of fires, which are sure to happen - as many of them are ignited naturally, by lightning. And within managed areas, firebreaks are often constructed and maintained to contain fires that do start.
It's similar to the story of wildlife management, whereby the areas that allow hunting end up having good game management practices that result in the healthiest herds and better biospheres.
The paper industry had massive forests that they managed beautifully. These are largely gone now due to recycling, and replaced by overgrowth, aka fire food.
'...I don't think the tribes were clearcutting to break up the continuity. ....'
You're welcome to your opinions, but there are clear historical records that show that Native Americans used fire to manage both grassland prairie and woodland areas across the west, to clear them of clutter, underbrush, and dead fuel loading, usually in the fall or early spring, all to help prevent devastating wildfires.
If you've ever seen a grassland or prairie rebound after a controlled burn, it's easy to see why these practices are used.
And by "fire-fighting protocols" I mean what is done once a fire has started. I've read (don't know if it's true) that Canada used to fight to put fires out once they started but now the strategy is to let it burn. Again, I don't know if that's true.
Much better in Southwest Florida this morning. The nasty smoke that could be seen and smelled in the air yesterday got washed away by the rain, and it was nice this morning for my walk, although the AQI was the same as yesterday. Hopefully it doesn't come back.
"Look at a map of Canada that shows where the forest is and how big it is."
Sorry to repeat myself but there are 272,000 square miles of forest in Ontario alone.
For comparison the entire state of Wisconsin covers 65,000 square miles.
You can do "forest management" around populated areas to good effect but preventing the widespread fires that have always occurred is not possible.
The fires aren't unusually large this year but the location of the fires and the current wind conditions are bringing the smoke to the the Northern US.
AI overview says 92-95% of Maine's forest land is privately owned. 91-91% of Georgia's. Only two states I was aware of before I searched with vast tracts of privately owned and managed forests. Far fewer fires in privately owned and managed forests because "environmentalist" have no say in how they're managed. AFAIK- both are largely pine and used for 2X4s and paper pulp. And they're still being managed.
Mixed hardwood forests exist in the US because early settlers clearcut vast forests of pine. Mixed hardwood forests require forest management to stay mixed hardwood. As NY is discovering with the forever wild status of the Adirondack Forest Preserve written into NY's constitution. When it was put into the state's constitution people thought the mixed hardwoods was the natural state of the forest and it would remain that way. Nope. Haven't seen any stories for a while, but at one point it was forbidden to clear a tree from a centuries old footpath- originally a deer path- because that interfered with the "forever wild" status.
I grew up in Chicago and went to Scout camp in Michigan in the 70s. Went to college in Mass in the 80s. Never heard anything about Canadian forest fires (or for that matter New England or Wisconsin or Michigan forest fires). My mom would have kept me indoors and six inches from the air conditioner if anything like these smoke events happened. The Scouting and college leadership would have been less frantic but would at least have said something.
Forest fires were something that happened out West in my childhood and young adulthood. And the smoke didn't even reach Fort Riley, Kansas, where I spent much of my Army time in the late 80s.
As a point of comparison, there have been news stories about old French people dying of heatstroke as long as I can remember. And of course shark-attack stories. But no Canadian smoke stories. CC, JSM
"Freder Frederson said... Breathing in air when the AQI is 200 is the equivalent of smoking 8-15 cigarettes. Are you claiming that have been no fatalities from smoking?"
First, is it 8 or 15? Second, you can get cancer even if you never smoked, and you can't tell if cancer was caused by smoking or not, just that smokers get cancer more. So your post only conveys one thing. You are a retard.
Freder Frederson said... I wonder how much furniture, how many homes, could have been built but for the desire to “protect the forests” and leave them pristine.
Go look up some photos of Wisconsin or Michigan in the late 1800's and see how wonderful clearcutting of the entire northeast and midwest forests were. For people who complain about windmills and solar panels spoiling the view, you don't seem to like trees much either.
Jesus. Read some history. The same meteor shower that burned down Chicago burned down tens of thousands of acres of virgin woodlands in Peshtigo Wisconsin. The old growth forest in Wisconsin and the UP went to rebuild Chicago. The passenger pigeon nested in those old growth pines. That's why there are no more. They weren't hunted to extinction. They were logged to extinction.
Aggie You're welcome to your opinions, but there are clear historical records that show that Native Americans used fire to manage both grassland prairie and woodland areas across the west, to clear them of clutter, underbrush, and dead fuel loading, usually in the fall or early spring, all to help prevent devastating wildfires.
Nothing so noble. They would build blinds at choke points and then set hundreds of thousands of acre of grassland and scrub on fire to drive game. The corollary benefit was it helped build up the dense black soil of the prairie. Buffaloe shit didn't hurt either.
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45 comments:
AQI = Aquatic Quacker Index?
hey old people? i have a Serious Question;
do y'all remember having terrible forest fire smoke, back in the old days?
i mean, back in the later half of the 20th century?
or even back at the turn of the century?
now it seems like Canada is burning.. Every year.
was it like this back then?
I wonder what changed? (of course it MUST BE global warming!)
or..
maybe it was that back in the olden days, Canada had a government?
I wonder how much furniture, how many homes, could have been built but for the desire to “protect the forests” and leave them pristine. Now homes, furniture, energy are all more expensive and we still have awful emissions ruining our air. Take a bow progressives. I’m sure the marxists are thrilled and laughing.
I remember everyone in the neighborhood burning their leaves in the backyard each fall in big trash cans with lots of holes in the sides to let air in.
As I recall, there were no fatalities.
As I recall, there were no fatalities.
Breathing in air when the AQI is 200 is the equivalent of smoking 8-15 cigarettes. Are you claiming that have been no fatalities from smoking?
I wonder how much furniture, how many homes, could have been built but for the desire to “protect the forests” and leave them pristine.
Go look up some photos of Wisconsin or Michigan in the late 1800's and see how wonderful clearcutting of the entire northeast and midwest forests were. For people who complain about windmills and solar panels spoiling the view, you don't seem to like trees much either.
I grew up in So Cal, and from the window in my parents house in Rancho Park we could watch the Santa Monica Mountains burn off, as they did regularly, in addition to the regular old 1950-60s smog.
Much of the forest in the West (and much of Canada I suspect) is fire climax community, which means it grows up to a certain point to which the fuel density becomes so high that a burn is inevitable, it's just waiting for a source of ignition. And it regrows quite handily from the ashes. In the good old days, the Indians, excuse me, Native Americans, would provide the spark either accidentally or deliberately (freshly burned land is better for farming and grazing). Now the first peoples are on the dole, and they don't bother anymore, and government would really rather hand out money to buy votes than to manage forests to prevent huge fires.
gilbar, I would have to say that I don't remember it being in the news back in the day. I haven't lived in areas close enough to the Canadian border to be directly affected so those folks might have a different perspective. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Without the AGW scam as a hook, and the impact to the media centers on the East Coast, this might have been a regional story. There may also need to be a specific set of antecedents such as a high fuel load from poor management in eastern Canadian forests, coupled with a weather pattern that caused drought and pushes the smoke south to the US. If the fires were occuring in western Canada there would be much less impact.
Of course not you idiot. Can’t you take a joke ? And by the way, how do you know the AQI was 200? And you failed to define whether the exposure was 2 minutes or twenty years. So your whole argument is what’s call a false equivalence.
I wonder what changed? (of course it MUST BE global warming!)
Because of the government of the olden days and global warming is why we are having the extreme fires we are having today. The U.S. is having as a bad a fire season as Canada. And Trump has slashed the forest service and other agencies responsible for maintaining our wild lands.
"2026 Fire in Europe at record lows
Halfway through 2026, Europe has burned less than in any year 2012-25
Every continent is below average, and Africa and the Americas are at record lows
Media only showing stuff burning leaves us badly informed"
https://x.com/BjornLomborg/status/2078437176233054226
Of course that could change as the hottest, driest part of the year in North America and Europe is ahead.
Fredo knows the Democrat Underground talking points. Don't confuse him with actual facts.
Just for fun I asked Grok to give me the mean temperature of the contiguous 48 states in 1955, when I recalled people burning their leaves in the backyard each year, with 2025.
+2.0°F (about +1.1°C) warmer today than in 1955.
This is just about equal to the annual temperature difference between Baltimore and Philadelphia. And we all know how deadly it is to live in Baltimore.
Dang. That is bad smoke.
The blue states of Washington, Oregon, and Colorado also have forest fires, but Quebec alone has more forest fires then more in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and NW territory. A lot more.
I grew up in Cleveland where my father walked to work for his job in the steel mills. The direction the wind was blowing determined whether or not laundry could be hung to dry outside. Too much red dust in the air. We didn’t have burning forests but the river did catch fire. I think this was before the AQI was implemented. Didn’t have to walk uphill both ways to school because the ground was pretty level. Our school did not provide masks nor was our door recess ever cancelled.
Nessie!
The best way to fight forest fires is not to have them by maintaining the forest. Loggers have a valued interest in not having their product destroyed by fires.
Tough going in the Great Lakes region these days. Sorry to see that eating up your summer time.
I saw a report last week that said there were more than 800 fires burning throughout Canada. There is no way that lighting could have caused that many fires across multiple provinces at approximately the same timeframe. Nor is it likely that careless campers were responsible for all the rest. The rapid spread and wide distribution suggests that there are arsonists involved, and possibly coordinated.
Canada isn't the only country experiencing such widespread wildfires. In recent years, the US western states, southern Europe, and Australia have also seen spikes in such cases. I'm not asserting they are all being caused by arsonists, whether domestic or otherwise, but I'm certain that there has been a greater increase in the number and distribution of nutty, hostile human groups than an increase in lightning storms.
“the forest service and other agencies responsible for maintaining our wild lands.”
They’re not really “wild” if they’re being “maintained” are they?
I hate fire season - but we must remember that the forest burning process is actually part of the renewal show.
My husband grew up here in NE WI and I have friends who’ve lived here a long time or who have summered here for decades. To a person, they don’t remember this persistent summer smoke being an issue - like it’s been the past few years.
"The best way to fight forest fires is not to have them by maintaining the forest."
Look at a map of Canada that shows where the forest is and how big it is. It's absurd to expect them to "maintain" it. Are we "maintaining" the Yellowstone caldera?
"The rapid spread and wide distribution suggests that there are arsonists involved, and possibly coordinated."
Do you have any idea how big and remote Canada is once you get a couple hundred miles north of the border? It would take dedicated, and extremely fit, arsonists to trek across Northern Canada setting fires.
I wonder how much impact the falloff of timbering over the past decades plays into this. Hasn't the area harvested dropped something like 40 percent since the mid-ish aughts? This is completely out of my area of expertise, so I'm just throwing this out, because I'm curious. I'm happy to be educated.
I mean, I'm assuming that the logging industry helped maintain the forests as part of their harvest management. Perhaps this is a poor assumption. But if it's true, perhaps this has an impact as well as other factors?
'Look at a map of Canada that shows where the forest is and how big it is. It's absurd to expect them to "maintain" it.'
The continuity of the forested area is the problem, especially where logging is disallowed. And it is possible to manage forestland in ways that limit the risk to fires spreading and becoming problematic. Forest lands that are actively managed by timber and paper companies have clear cut areas, and part of that planning is specifically to limit the spread of fires, which are sure to happen - as many of them are ignited naturally, by lightning. And within managed areas, firebreaks are often constructed and maintained to contain fires that do start.
It's similar to the story of wildlife management, whereby the areas that allow hunting end up having good game management practices that result in the healthiest herds and better biospheres.
Aggie seems a lot more conversant with this topic than I. So I'd like to refer you to question above to him.
Who was maintaining these forests two or more centuries ago, if management is such a crucial thing to their health and survival?
I don't think the tribes were clearcutting to break up the continuity.
The paper industry had massive forests that they managed beautifully. These are largely gone now due to recycling, and replaced by overgrowth, aka fire food.
There’s no such thing as a free lunch.
Well, this is interesting
A potential difference between now and the past is if there has been a change in fire-fighting protocols.
'...I don't think the tribes were clearcutting to break up the continuity. ....'
You're welcome to your opinions, but there are clear historical records that show that Native Americans used fire to manage both grassland prairie and woodland areas across the west, to clear them of clutter, underbrush, and dead fuel loading, usually in the fall or early spring, all to help prevent devastating wildfires.
If you've ever seen a grassland or prairie rebound after a controlled burn, it's easy to see why these practices are used.
And by "fire-fighting protocols" I mean what is done once a fire has started. I've read (don't know if it's true) that Canada used to fight to put fires out once they started but now the strategy is to let it burn. Again, I don't know if that's true.
Much better in Southwest Florida this morning. The nasty smoke that could be seen and smelled in the air yesterday got washed away by the rain, and it was nice this morning for my walk, although the AQI was the same as yesterday. Hopefully it doesn't come back.
My astronomy observing app predicts smoke won't be too bad for World Cup final.
"Look at a map of Canada that shows where the forest is and how big it is."
Sorry to repeat myself but there are 272,000 square miles of forest in Ontario alone.
For comparison the entire state of Wisconsin covers 65,000 square miles.
You can do "forest management" around populated areas to good effect but preventing the widespread fires that have always occurred is not possible.
The fires aren't unusually large this year but the location of the fires and the current wind conditions are bringing the smoke to the the Northern US.
𝘑𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘦𝘺 𝘍𝘭𝘦𝘥 𝘴𝘢𝘪𝘥...
𝘛𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘢𝘱𝘦𝘳 𝘪𝘯𝘥𝘶𝘴𝘵𝘳𝘺 𝘩𝘢𝘥 𝘮𝘢𝘴𝘴𝘪𝘷𝘦 𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘦𝘴𝘵𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘺 𝘮𝘢𝘯𝘢𝘨𝘦𝘥 𝘣𝘦𝘢𝘶𝘵𝘪𝘧𝘶𝘭𝘭𝘺. 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘴𝘦 𝘢𝘳𝘦 𝘭𝘢𝘳𝘨𝘦𝘭𝘺 𝘨𝘰𝘯𝘦 𝘯𝘰𝘸 𝘥𝘶𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘳𝘦𝘤𝘺𝘤𝘭𝘪𝘯𝘨, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘳𝘦𝘱𝘭𝘢𝘤𝘦𝘥 𝘣𝘺 𝘰𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘨𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘵𝘩, 𝘢𝘬𝘢 𝘧𝘪𝘳𝘦 𝘧𝘰𝘰𝘥.
AI overview says 92-95% of Maine's forest land is privately owned. 91-91% of Georgia's. Only two states I was aware of before I searched with vast tracts of privately owned and managed forests. Far fewer fires in privately owned and managed forests because "environmentalist" have no say in how they're managed. AFAIK- both are largely pine and used for 2X4s and paper pulp. And they're still being managed.
Mixed hardwood forests exist in the US because early settlers clearcut vast forests of pine. Mixed hardwood forests require forest management to stay mixed hardwood. As NY is discovering with the forever wild status of the Adirondack Forest Preserve written into NY's constitution. When it was put into the state's constitution people thought the mixed hardwoods was the natural state of the forest and it would remain that way. Nope. Haven't seen any stories for a while, but at one point it was forbidden to clear a tree from a centuries old footpath- originally a deer path- because that interfered with the "forever wild" status.
Clear cutting <> maintaining. Also, can’t find Washington, Oregon, or Colorado on map of Canada.
*and global warming is why we are having the extreme fires we are having today. *
Global warming! Squawk.
Global warming! Squawk.
Global warming! Squawk.
Global warming! Squawk.
The very definition of lazy thinking.
I grew up in Chicago and went to Scout camp in Michigan in the 70s. Went to college in Mass in the 80s. Never heard anything about Canadian forest fires (or for that matter New England or Wisconsin or Michigan forest fires). My mom would have kept me indoors and six inches from the air conditioner if anything like these smoke events happened. The Scouting and college leadership would have been less frantic but would at least have said something.
Forest fires were something that happened out West in my childhood and young adulthood. And the smoke didn't even reach Fort Riley, Kansas, where I spent much of my Army time in the late 80s.
As a point of comparison, there have been news stories about old French people dying of heatstroke as long as I can remember. And of course shark-attack stories. But no Canadian smoke stories. CC, JSM
Canada is like the social science depts at a US state U. They have become so smart that they are stupid.
"Freder Frederson said...
Breathing in air when the AQI is 200 is the equivalent of smoking 8-15 cigarettes. Are you claiming that have been no fatalities from smoking?"
First, is it 8 or 15? Second, you can get cancer even if you never smoked, and you can't tell if cancer was caused by smoking or not, just that smokers get cancer more. So your post only conveys one thing. You are a retard.
Freder Frederson said...
I wonder how much furniture, how many homes, could have been built but for the desire to “protect the forests” and leave them pristine.
Go look up some photos of Wisconsin or Michigan in the late 1800's and see how wonderful clearcutting of the entire northeast and midwest forests were. For people who complain about windmills and solar panels spoiling the view, you don't seem to like trees much either.
Jesus. Read some history.
The same meteor shower that burned down Chicago burned down tens of thousands of acres of virgin woodlands in Peshtigo Wisconsin. The old growth forest in Wisconsin and the UP went to rebuild Chicago. The passenger pigeon nested in those old growth pines. That's why there are no more. They weren't hunted to extinction. They were logged to extinction.
Aggie
You're welcome to your opinions, but there are clear historical records that show that Native Americans used fire to manage both grassland prairie and woodland areas across the west, to clear them of clutter, underbrush, and dead fuel loading, usually in the fall or early spring, all to help prevent devastating wildfires.
Nothing so noble. They would build blinds at choke points and then set hundreds of thousands of acre of grassland and scrub on fire to drive game. The corollary benefit was it helped build up the dense black soil of the prairie. Buffaloe shit didn't hurt either.
Post a Comment
Please use the comments forum to respond to the post. Don't fight with each other. Be substantive... or interesting... or funny. Comments should go up immediately... unless you're commenting on a post older than 4 days. Then you have to wait for us to moderate you through. It's also possible to get shunted into spam by the machine. We try to keep an eye on that and release the miscaught good stuff. We do delete some comments, but not for viewpoint... for bad faith. Also: No italics, even briefly. Use asterisks for emphasis. And don't play with the format by changing fonts or using boldface or all caps. Never include more than one extra line break between paragraphs.