From "Gun rights groups challenge shooting of legally armed Minneapolis man" (Axios).
And here's Jonathan Chait, in "What MAGA Really Thinks of the Second Amendment/Now Americans know" (The Atlantic)(gift link).
Until very recently, conservative rhetoric has valorized gun ownership as a bulwark against tyrannical government, to the point of fetishization. Conservatives defended Kyle Rittenhouse as a hero for bringing a rifle to a chaotic protest in Wisconsin during the summer of 2020, as well as armed bands of protesters who marched into state capitol buildings during the COVID lockdowns....
The administration’s immediate use of the terrorist label should be understood not just as a hyperbolic accusation of intent, but as an umbrella term it applies to political opposition generally.... The administration’s allies, not all of whom wish to directly endorse summary executions, have played along with his logic, treating protesters’ reaction to the crackdown as though it were its cause....
Democratic Party leaders in the state have urged residents to record activity in order to produce a record of these acts. That is why Pretti was holding his phone, not his gun, when he intervened to protect a woman being tear-gassed by CBP agents, who then killed him.
The phone, not the gun, is the weapon the administration fears....
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414 comments:
1 – 200 of 414 Newer› Newest»I'll wait to see body cam and hear what was said during the scuffle. What does bother me is the guy in the jacket that appears in plain clothes that first kicks something away and later is seen with the gun.
This has to be the stupidest "controversy" I've seen in a long time. Most everyone with a license to carry will do their best to avoid situations where conflict with law enforcement is likely, especially if they actually are carrying. In cases where they would not avoid such situations, it almost certainly means they anticipate violence, and they anticipate participating in it. Can we call it an insurrection yet?
Yeah, the NRA (and anyone else who believes the Constitution means what it says) holds that you can combine your Amd I and II rights. Ie, you can protest with a gun on you.
But the deceased offender transitioned from protest to active interference. You don't get to do that at all, let alone with a gun on you.
And even (especially!) the NRA advises you to follow all laws regarding your gun possession - especially notifying the police early in the interaction that you're armed, and following their instructions. CC, JSM
Hmm. So many official positions to defend, not enough hours in the day. But I was told that he didn't have his photo ID, and didn't have his carry permit, both of which are required when 'concealed-carrying' a firearm in this state. And thereby breaking multiple laws, and breaking even more of them when confronting armed Federal agents, obstructing traffic, assault, etc. etc. But now, we're told this isn't so? But wait, this was a 'peaceful protest'. Right? Right?
Interfering and resisting the authorities while armed falls into the 'treason doth never prosper' category: if you win, you're a hero; if the authorities are still in charge after the interaction, you're a felon. Or dead. CC, JSM
"Life is full of ironies for the stupid." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Obvious difference between carrying and brandishing. Too early to know yet which Pretti was doing.
Some other Amd II considerations:
- nearly all gun-rights supporters want both the police and the ordinary armed citizen to be given broad latitude for defensive use of force, not video-playback needle-dicking.
- Minneapolis has castrated its police for the last five years, making self-defense very important, because the police will do everything they can not to get to a crime in progress. They would much rather take ex-post reports than have to justify using force on the offender. If you don't want armed citizens or federal agents using defensive force, put your police on the street and back them up in court. CC, JSM
I wondered whether Pretti having a gun at the moment he was shot was as dispositive as everybody is assuming, so I asked Grok: “In the case of the recent ICE shooting in Minneapolis, everybody is focusing on whether or not the deceased protester had a gun at the moment he was shot. There’s no doubt he had a gun before he was disarmed. I’m curious about whether this is as crucial as people are saying. What is absolutely clear is that the protester became involved in a physical fight with the ICE agents. He was resisting arrest quite violently. What are ICE agent’s self-defense rights solely based on that?”
The answer was quite interesting. Maybe. Maybe not. You can ask Grok if you like. Maybe I’ll post its reply.
My Attorney General (AZ) believes that it is OK to shoot ICE agents by her interpretation of “stand your ground” laws.
If that is not an encouragement of insurrection, I don’t know what is.
From "Gun rights groups challenge shooting of legally armed Minneapolis man" (Axios).
Aggie explains the lie behind the headline "legally armed", which under MN law, he wasn't. As I did in a previous thread.
The proof that he was engaged in a vast conspiracy to break the law is going to be a much bigger factor in the end.
This has to be the stupidest "controversy" I've seen in a long time. Most everyone with a license to carry will do their best to avoid situations where conflict with law enforcement is likely, especially if they actually are carrying.
Exactly. And should they come into contact with law enforcement, they become the most docile, compliant, and courteous people, making clear they are armed and assisting the officer in safely disarming them. They do not conceal their weapon from the police, nor do they engage in conflict with them while concealing their weapon.
This is basic stuff for carrying a weapon responsibly.
Minneapolis has overtaken Portland in the number of stupid white people
Minneapolis has overtaken Portland in the number of stupid white people
I’m one of them, alas.
When you write, "And here's Johnathon Chait ...", the image that forms in my mind, is of a little mannekin, waving its arms and legs, presented for inspection.
So many are removing the context to make their points.
context is everything.
The leftist rage-fueled nurse was part of a leftwing ICE agent harassment group.
The proof that he was engaged in a vast conspiracy to break the law is going to be a much bigger factor in the end.
Maybe it should be, but for many especially here ICE Watch are the good guys.
More info on MN law requirements from Shipwrecked crew: Supposed to have ID and the permit on your person, and required by statute to immediately inform LE upon contact that you are armed and surrender it upon request.
Pretty darn obvious he didn't inform law enforcement he was armed. Of course the MN defense there is simple- Governor Tim Walz has declared ICE isn't law enforcement. Oops again! It was Border Patrol! Tampon Tim didn't include them as non-law enforcement agents.
Most True 2nd amendment folks understand the law and proper protocol for responsible gun use.
From "Gun rights groups challenge shooting of legally armed Minneapolis man"
Again, the media takes statements out of context to push their preferred agenda. There is no contradiction. The statement, "there is a 'high likelihood' law enforcement will be 'legally justified' in shooting someone who approaches them with a gun," is both true and false, depending on the circumstances.
If, as Bill Essayli asserts, one were to go up to law enforcement in a highly-charged situation with an undeclared and menacing manner with a firearm, then yes, it is likely you may be justifiably shot.
If, as the NRA and others asset, you are simply carrying and run into a police officer you should not fear being shot simply because you are armed.
The NRA and others are right to push back on Essayli's statements -- as reported -- so as not to give people the unfounded fear that carrying on its own makes one subject to police violence. They do not want law abiding citizens to fear exercising their Constitutional rights, which (like all Constitutional rights) should not be a problem if done responsibly.
The gun owner in Minneapolis far from acting responsibly.
Again - obey the orders of law enforcement - and at worst you will be arrested - and probably back on the street the same day.
These anti-ICE agitators and their well organized groups are are not there to respect the law.
’Until very recently, conservative rhetoric has valorized gun ownership as a bulwark against tyrannical government, to the point of fetishization.’
The second amendment was ratified by our Founders as a bulwark against tyrannical government. It’s not about conservative rhetoric or alleged fetishization.
The gun owner in Minneapolis (was) far from acting responsibly.
The hack-D Soviet Democratic Media - lie, obscure, remove context, ignore facts... and stretch statements of fact into contortions of leftwing narrative.
Noem's, Vance's, and Bovino's enthusiastic falsehoods about this shooting should astonish us, but their repetition is too predictable now. Everyone is a "domestic terrorist" or "paid agitator"--slanders uttered without facts by people who should respect the great responsibility of their positions more. If four agents can't control and detain a man already on the ground without escalating to deadly force based on a weapon already secured, then the problems are your training and your officers.
’Until very recently, conservative rhetoric has valorized gun ownership as a bulwark against tyrannical government, to the point of fetishization.’
More true: Until very recently, progressive rhetoric has valorized the "right to protest" as a bulwark against tyrannical government, to the point of fetishization.
Kak: “If four agents can't control and detain a man already on the ground without escalating to deadly force based on a weapon already secured, then the problems are your training and your officers.”
You know this how? Personal experience?
So future Democratic administrations can just adopt the exact same interpretation of the Second Amendment that MAGA Republicans have been pushing over the last 24 hours? Can we quote you on that? Cite you in legal briefs?
In both the Renée Good and Alex Pretti cases, federal agents would be absolutely torn apart under oath—if they ever had to testify before a jury and face real cross-examination by skilled lawyers. They're only avoiding that scrutiny because the government refuses to let it happen.
"He was resisting arrest quite violently. What are ICE agent’s self-defense rights solely based on that?”"
He was just pepper sprayed in the face from a close distance by an ICE officer for recording.
The ICE officer aggressively went at him to start this whole thing.
Its like John Mosby's self defense claims, laughable.
Everyone is a "domestic terrorist" or "paid agitator"
Not everyone. Some people are protesting peacefully. You will find them not blocking the streets, obstructing justice, or getting shot.
The proof that he was engaged in a vast conspiracy to break the law
He wasn't there by accident. That he chose to challenge ICE while armed was just stupid. The blame for this crap lies squarely with Walz and Frey. We need to resurrect Hubert Humphrey to clean up the DFL. Again.
"What MAGA thinks"
hmmm - searching for thoughts... my middle finger is scratching the side of my nose.
James O'Keefe
@JamesOKeefeIII
🚨 BREAKING: MINNEAPOLIS MOB THREATENS TO KILL O’KEEFE — ICE BOTTLES THROWN, FOLLOWED, AND OMG TEAM UNDER ATTACK.
My team and I are in downtown Minneapolis right now. We still have undercover reporters inside the mob. I was at the scene of the shooting this morning and barely made it out alive.
Hundreds surrounded us. They were throwing ice bottles, ripping off my bulletproof vest. They even followed us all the way back to our hotel.
As all of this was happening, we received death threats via text.
Pray for our team out in the field. We are reaching a boiling point in this country.
Another confident assertion by Kak based on what? “In both the Renée Good and Alex Pretti cases, federal agents would be absolutely torn apart under oath—if they ever had to testify before a jury and face real cross-examination by skilled lawyers. They're only avoiding that scrutiny because the government refuses to let it happen.”
How do you know two days after the event that “scrutiny” is being denied? There was time for judicial review?
’He was just pepper sprayed in the face from a close distance by an ICE officer for recording.’
Did you hear the officer say stop recording or I’ll pepper spray you in the face from a close distance? Just wondering how you know the officer’s motivation…
Sunny Lohmann
@sunnylohmann
This is alarming.
The Revolutionaries have an organized and VAST network of people out snitching and spotting and harassing people that covers the entire city and suburbs.
Are regular Americans in Minnesota comfortable with that? That’s chilling in the extreme. At any moment they can drop the net, and their boot is up your ass, and you are totally without rights. Don’t try to resist or they can and will mobilize a HUGE mob to attack you.
I’m shocked by what I’m hearing. It’s later than I thought.
In what other cities can they do this, I wonder…
Chris Rock explains it all: How not to get your ass kicked by the police!
Mark - Why was he peppered sprayed ?
A good guess was his very purposeful attendance as a member the Kingfield Signal ICE watch group.
He was harassing ICE and resisting arrest.
Why do leftists assume they are above the law?
Still waiting for that answer.
Kevin at 11:50--Well said.
The Revolutionaries have an organized and VAST network of people out snitching and spotting and harassing people that covers the entire city and suburbs.
Are regular Americans in Minnesota comfortable with that?
I say yes, they are.
Are leftists allowed to harass law enforcement?
Walz says yes.
Kakistocracy said...
So future Democratic administrations can just adopt the exact same interpretation of the Second Amendment that MAGA Republicans have been pushing over the last 24 hours?
Previous demoncRAT administrations have already done that. Well, not really. Ashli Babbitt wasn't armed and wasn't a threat.
Agreed - Kevin @ 11:50 - spot on.
Media(D) hacks - will not inform that measured reality.
’The Revolutionaries have an organized and VAST network of people out snitching and spotting and harassing people…’
I’m not trying to warn the cosplay freedom fighters, but I assume they’re unaware of our country’s signals intelligence capabilities. lol
I thought I'd seen every weird take on Rittenhouse, but the suggestion that he brought the rifle to Kenosha to use against the police is a new one on me.
Yawn. Don't really care who did what, or who acted legally and who didn't. These communist agitators are my enemies and yours, and I couldn't care less whether they live or die. Put them down, hard, and do it now, or regret not doing it later.
On X, there's been a lot of focus on whether a gun was removed and safely away before the man was shot. If I had removed a gun from someone and they made a move towards a pocket or waistband (or really anywhere, lots of places you can carry one), I would assume there's a second gun or some other weapon. Lots of people who carry think one is not enough.
The whole point of the article is to steer the conversation away from the facts on the ground, and make it appear as if the dead protester was just exercising his Amendments. Because if the conversation stays with the facts - no ID, no carry permit, armed with spare ammo - then the justification for his activities cannot be supported.
The victim did NOT have a weapon when he was shot ,he was disarmed. He never reached for his gun ,he had a phone, I counted at least 8-10 shots and reports were in his back. All the MAGAS so vehemently claiming 2nd amendment rights are now saying well he shouldn't have a gun in an open carry or concealed carry state. Hypocrite much.? This was flat out murder and the trump stories gaslighting are sickening. People when lied to their face just say "oh well that's what they said don't believe your own eyes. And even if convicted trump just pardons them anyway so that's where you are MERIKA/ 1939 IN FULL BLOOM.. The minute will revive again if King George(trump) keeps pushing and flat out lying. Don't be fools use your eyes this was MURDER, victim was unarmed 6 thugs beating him. BCA blocked from scene just like the previous victim shot in face where administration flat out lied about that. MERIKA IS f%$&ed bring you kids in front of the TV and show what MAGA has turned America into, GEORGE ORWELL called long ago,, history always repeats itself They want the murderers to investigate themselves..f'ing brilliant Lord its always in Your hands, may Your will be done. :(
C'mon Mark--he wasn't pepper sprayed for "recording." He was pepper sprayed because he tried to intervene in the confrontation between the Border Patrol officer and the woman who was interfering with that officer, when that woman got pepper-sprayed.
You're entitled to your opinion, not to your own "facts."
My current belief is that Pretti had his gun in his belt and ICE had some idea that he was carrying. They seem to be trying to pull him out of a crouch which was protecting access to his gun. The guy in the gray jacket kicks a can of pepper spray out of the way. Then he leans over Pretti and seems to be pulling on his right arm. He wrenches the gun loose and turns away with it. At almost the same moment you hear a gunshot.
In relation to public carry, I assume there's instruction on relations with armed officers of the law. Unarmed citizens and armed citizens alike are supposed to obey the commands of officers of the law and litigate them later. The leftys fighting ICE think no laws apply to them, not even "laws" of common sense.
In relation to Minnesota. A criminal sanctuary, the home of massive fraud on taxpayers, naturally wishes to exclude Federal law enforcement but that just cannot stand. Minnesota is ludicrous as Somalia North, an established pirate sanctuary like the real Somalia. It can't be.
And the deaths in Minnesota are futile, tragic and inevitable. The "jounalists" and media who will not acknowledge that ICE is at present rounding up the worst of the worst are responsible for the futile deaths of citizens who intervene against armed officers because the citizens think they are protecting the innocent.
And what if they were successful? The people of a whole US state would be in the hands of thieves and a government unable to stand up those thieves. Why, the head of HHS, Dr. Oz, had the door to a clinic which his Federal department finances, slammed in his face. He was followed as he drove away. Can anyone believe a normal clinic behaved like that? And these clinics are defended by the state government. "We inspect them." says Gov. Tiimmy. "We seen nothing."
Crooked state governments have existed before. It did not stand then and it won't now. But how sad to see decent people dying for lords of crime, (including dying for descendants of the masters of the Saudi-North African slave trade. That trade is how Somalis used to make money. I expect Minnesota is more profitable.) all because because journalists are lying about a Federal agency.
There are people filming the leftist filmers.
Note the leftwing media assume the federal agents are illegal, doing illegal things. Like arresting - illegal aliens.
We do not hate the Democrat hack media, enough.
dinky said -
"The victim did NOT have a weapon when he was shot ,he was disarmed."
Again - you are removing context. He might have had one gun. or even two. or the agents thought he was reaching for a gun... among real possibilities.
Why did the agents yell "GUN GUN!" ?
wildswan said:
"My current belief is that Pretti had his gun in his belt and ICE had some idea that he was carrying. They seem to be trying to pull him out of a crouch which was protecting access to his gun. The guy in the gray jacket kicks a can of pepper spray out of the way. Then he leans over Pretti and seems to be pulling on his right arm. He wrenches the gun loose and turns away with it. At almost the same moment you hear a gunshot."
Possible. yes.
Many good comments above and I will add this. This event happened in a few seconds with adrenaline pumping in freezing cold and whistles blowing. It was a fight and CBP reacted as they were trained. A CBP guy yells “gun” and a shot rang out. Not clear if Alex pulled the trigger or if the Sig just went off. CBP then shot in self-defense.
Creighton played Xavier last week.Sophomore Austin Schwartz is on the line to shoot two. Creighton is down two. He makes the first but misses the second. He chases the ball down and steals it from a much bigger guy. He starts to drive in but is cutoff. He takes an off-balance shot and banks it high off of the glass to score with 0.06 seconds left. Amazing. And his life wasn’t on the line. It was just a game.
Agree 100% with the needle dicking comment above.
"But the deceased offender transitioned from protest to active interference."
The left considers "active interference" to be "protest". Some of the more retarded ones consider it to be "mostly peaceful protest".
FWIW...
Some thoughts from undercover non-leftists
the anger rising with the normals - is that the GOP are asleep at the wheel on this.
Has the protester who bit off the finger of an ICE agent been arrested? Identified, even? And why haven't we heard more about that? Biting off a finger is obviously a lot less damaging than shooting someone dead, but it's more sick, perverted, and downright insane. The aspiring cannibal needs to be off the streets and in jail for a very long time. Is he (or she?)? Has anyone asked Walz to tell his citizens to keep their damned teeth off the ICE agents? If so, what did he say?
"That is why Pretti was holding his phone, not his gun, when he intervened to protect a woman being tear-gassed by CBP agents,"
"Protecting" someone whom law enforcement is actively attempting to restrain is, whether with tear gas or anything else, is interference. The dems are conspiring with all manner of anarchists and psychopaths to interfere with LE operations. That this is both insurrectionist and highly dangerous goes without saying.
I don’t care an out the democrat agitator that was shot. I do however care that the nra sounds just a Ortis it’s with their “give no inch” political rhetoric. Cannot stand that extremism.
Of course the democrat media ONLY cares about political power, period.’ They don’t care how many child rapists they are protecting.
"He was pepper sprayed because he tried to intervene in the confrontation between the Border Patrol officer and the woman who was interfering with that officer,"
Interfering is doing a lot of work in your argument here and has not been shown in any clear fashion.
The whole basis for ICE's tactics to start this confrontation is based on unsubstantiated claims during a press conference that included multiple falsehoods.
Explain exactly how these people were not exercising 1st Amendment rights and that aggressive confrontation was warranted.
Until then its just government thugs jumping someone because they don't like constitutional rights.
Quote " law enforcement will be 'legally justified' in shooting someone who approaches them with a gun." WRONG
Here I fixed it for the dimwits. "law enforcement will be 'legally justified' in shooting someone who approaches them openly brandishing a gun (other weapon) in a threatening manner.
These are really all side issues that miss the real issue.
Serious 1st question, that I hope someone can answer honestly:
Why do anti-ICE people not want the criminals picked up and removed from their community?
Kak: Which thing is more irresponsible if done by an elected official?: (a) Encouraging and/or conspiring with people to confront and interfere with LEOs attempting to apprehend people, or (b) in public statements, mischaracterizing a person's attempt at interfering with a LE operation as "domestic terrorism"? Which is worse? [Jeopardy! "Think" music plays]
"The phone, not the gun, is the weapon the administration fears...."
Little Johnathon has a point there. In the videos, you can here the ICE agents warning each other, "Phone! Phone! He's got a Phone!". Just before they start dialing.
Mark said..
Interfering is doing a lot of work in your argument here and has not been shown in any clear fashion.
Yep, it's completely normal to be standing in the middle of the street. You see it every day. Why driving to the supermarket I dodge 20-30 people just wandering about in the middle of the street. Completely normal non-disruptive behavior.
"Bill Essayli, Los Angeles' top federal prosecutor and a Trump ally, received fierce blowback from gun-rights groups over his Saturday claim that there is a 'high likelihood' law enforcement will be 'legally justified' in shooting someone who approaches them with a gun.
There appears to be some disingenuous sleight of hand going on here. Did Essayli say that it was OK for cops to shoot anyone who "approaches them" with a gun?
Because that is absolutely not what happened here.
Mark drools
"Explain exactly how these people were not exercising 1st Amendment rights and that aggressive confrontation was warranted."
What?
You are saying that It's OK for ICE Watch agitators and harassment of ICE officers is all A-OK? -why? Because Walz asked them to?
& You are saying that law enforcement are in the wrong no matter what. Got it.
"Why do anti-ICE people not want the criminals picked up and removed from their community?"
They want very badly to avoid anyone even talking about that question, let alone answering it.
Interfering is doing a lot of work in your argument here and has not been shown in any clear fashion.
I don’t know what the legal meaning of interference is, so I can’t tell you if he was. Certainly in the popular meaning of the word that was his intent. You do realize that people here wear brightly colored whistles around their necks now? The point is they aren’t hiding this. Doesn’t mean the agents weren’t wrong to shoot. But the idea that Pretti and Good weren’t part of Ice Watch (which anyone can join, it’s very very easy and decentralized) is plain dishonest.
If a leftist wants to take over a public street - they get to.
Because leftist neo-Nazi.
What the hell, Mark.
Answer honestly: Was he pepper-sprayed because he was recording, or because he knowingly got himself in the middle of an altercation between a protester and an officer?
It's a simple factual question. If you insist on pretending that it's something that it isn't then you are just deflecting.
Until then its just government thugs jumping someone because they don't like constitutional rights.
The mind boggles at how you chastise your rhetorical opponents about making claims without evidence while, at the same time, doing the exact same thing!
No one knows no one knows sufficient detail to be able to come to any reasonable conclusion on the justification of lethal force, much less have knowledge of intent or internal thought processes.
Hard to say if people don't understand the difference between facts, opinions, and assumptions or they are just being intentionally obtuse. I assume the latter...
The Right has fundamentally failed, yet again, how to communicate around this and is rallying around questionable - at best - use of force by federal government against it's citizens. Because.....a Republican is in the White House and backs it?
Renee Good shouldn't have been doing what she was doing. And neither should Pretti, though his case remains less clear to be from what I've seen so far. Our country was flooded for years with tens of millions of illegal immigrants with basically no effective law enforcement against that flood - nor against the tens of thousands of serious criminals within any such flood of individuals. ICE is "ENFORCEMENT" and is conducting targeted operations accordingly. This is really basic stuff. But they are trained to work with local law enforcement in coordination within the country - they are not trained to work against hostile local and state government and in the midst of an actively resistant local populace.
Renee Good's death was potentially justified - she was surrounded by agents, in a vehicle, ignoring their lawful commands, and she sped up to escape - but it's also clear the agent was able to side step the vehicle and chose to fire when he was off to the side.
Pretti's death seems completely off the rails, but there's a big difference between SEEMS and IS - and both sides (state government/democrats, and federal/republicans) are in the mode where they rush to declare what happened rather than fact gather. Not good.
If the moral degenerate cult radical left want to follow loser Mobster Walz down into his hell hole - go right ahead.
The Second Amendment doesn't say anything about getting into wrestling matches with cops while packing.
Do people in here attacking ICE think these killings are because agents want to kill these people? The result for the agents is all bad, so why do you think they do it?
but it's also clear the agent was able to side step
Asserts invented "facts".
You people with your disgusting ghoulish thrill-seeking Joy over the murder of American citizens are being more and more isolated. The Democrats are going to stomp the Republicans in the midterms and none of Trump's agenda is going to get through after that.
Yes, it's true: you are the baddies. Everybody sees it. Everybody knows it. This is the trap that the DNC has set for the Trump administration and drunk with power. They fell for it.
Lefties should definitely be armed and announce that they're ready to shoot armed federal agents.
That should kick the war off and we can finally be rid of these people.
Merely having a gun on your person (if you have a carry permit!!) is not illegal. Many people, even myself, will have open carry protection on their person...I do...especially when in the woods (the wolves and mountain lions don't care if you are carrying even illegally). Just carrying/having a weapon is not considered dangerous in most circumstances. However in a volatile situation where many people are violating the law, attacking and interfering with the officers' legal duties and you have been warned repeatedly to "back the F off"........reaching for your weapon is justification for the officers to protect themselves in a split second situation.
Pro tip...when dealing with agitated law enforcement officers....keep your hands in clear sight at all times. Don't reach in your pockets, jacket, or purse. Use some common sense dumbf#cks.
This is real life; not a made up movie in your head where you think YOU are the hero.
If someone approached me, just swinging and threatening me with a baseball bat, not even a gun...and I was carrying..as a last resort I would protect myself any way that I could. If that means shooting...well.....whatever it takes.
Hands off, don't drive.
Full disclosure in insurrection.
Here is the entire TRAINING MANUAL for domestic terrorist patrols chasing ICE agents in Minneapolis.
Both were justified' minneapolis operates in a state of nature' where crimimals and lootere have the right of aay
That's a very simple question, Bago water, these are completely incompetent power hungry Little men who have been teased and picked on their whole life. This is their revenge against people with college degrees. They have been given free license to kill anybody they want because they know they will always get 100% support from the administration in 100% support for the 10% of the knuckle dragging morons who love Trump more than anything else.
Batons save lives. Seriously. Without batons, LE has to use OC spray, with varying effectiveness, Tasers, with varying effectiveness, or grappling, whose effectiveness we saw in the tape. A baton blow stops resistance a lot more dependably. Then you can search a writhing guy on the ground more or less at your leisure. And after pictures of the first few recipients get around, there will be a lot fewer resisters taking to the streets.
Batons. If they save one life, aren't they worth it? CC, JSM
Howard - just who is doing the thrill seeking?
Howard: "You people with your disgusting ghoulish thrill-seeking Joy over the murder of American citizens"
There is no joy in any of this. It's a shame that it has come to this and someone lost their life. BUT....it is as if he purposely put himself on a train track and tried to force the train to stop. I don't feel sorry for stupid people.
Remember when they suppressed the choke hold in lieu of fire atms
Ageism, really? And color? Diversity!
Demos-cracy is Planned... aborted with Democrats in sanctuary states.
How they outright omitted that the knee maneuver was standard issue police procedure in minneapolis
Off topic but related: The Scott Adams celebration of life service, MC'd by Greg Gutfeld, is livestreaming now:
https://x.com/i/broadcasts/1zqJVdPLYypKB
CC, JSM
The really sad thing is that the new economic program that Trump has led the West to in Davos is going to die on the vine because of crap like this. This is what the evil of absolute power looks like.
Ciso: "How they outright omitted that the knee maneuver was standard issue police procedure in minneapolis"
Yes, that could be the core of a civil-rights prosecution like I suggested last night. Lock up Ellison, MPD senior management, the expert witnesses, and the prosecutors for violating Chauvin's rights under color of law. CC, JSM
All government employees should be monitored? Anyone with authority, including officers of the court.
"RESIST "
The democrat party's anti-democracy rallying cry.
Top down.
We arent 'ferrets on double expresso' we can hold more than one concept at a time
That was featured in the fall of minneapolis documentary
"Do people in here attacking ICE think..."
They're not thinking. They're more concerned with their feelz.
Sorry to disappoint you people. All of the murderous behavior of these federal thugs is not going to instigate a civil war. It will just be the coup de gras of MAGA as a philosophy. Enjoy your little victory over the lib tards of Minnesota.
DBQ - 1:03 excellent.
leftists do not get any of that.
They assume, like little children who sit screaming in their high chairs - or angry monkeys at the zoo - that they get to fling as much spaghetti and poo as they wish.
because "RESIST"
This is their revenge against people with college degrees.
Be careful folks. If Howard gets any smarter he might have a thought.
To go by the michael byrd standard : blam when youre in doubt'
The Capitol gave him a medal for that
Exactly, Mason. Armed government thugs certainly gets my Irish up. That's more healthy and normal than you people getting chubbies like you have never seen before.
Robert E Lee thought the North were the bad guys. Still true today.
Again - the left skip past the non-stop threats against ICE agents - from Walz and Ellison on down.
RESIST - again - is the communist dog whistle and the call of the broken and rage-fueled.
Keep hugging your cats
I know the 'usual suspects' arent serious
When cinderblocks were raining on the la freeways
RESIST is all based on immature feelz.
John Hinderaker at Power Line asks what is different about Minnesota? (with a multi-colored map as a bonus!)
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2026/01/whos-to-blame.php
Howard - keep licking that poisonous toad.
All of these Democrat politicians and our news media spreading the lies about ICE removing a 5 year old child from school in a kidnapping. These evil corksoakers - each and every one of these pieces of excrement - know they are lying.
That’s where we’re at.
The guy was armed while confronting legislative enforcement officers in a climate of fear and hate spurred by officials and activists to cover-up massive schemes to defraud Americans in the redistributive change schemes and civil rights violations.
Hey tough guy Howard, with your finger in the wind--What's your solution?--let the illegal alien rapists and pedophiles run free?
Because if you'd taken that position two weeks ago you would have been challenged on it. You didn't. Now that it looks bad you're in "You people" mode.
Howard, I asked an honest question, and if your answer was honest, you should be out there fighting ICE yourself, so a second honest question is why are you not? You sound motivated and righteous.
toad licking howard
an unrepentant coward
waxes nostalgic
Clearly its the hypno toad
Bagoh - I see still no takers on your questions.
Waiting...
Three Freeze to Death as Hochul Focuses on ICE https://share.google/c3TSwx3CYRL9avnTh
I wonder how someone like Walz could appeal to anyone, but he is effective at fraud and distracting from it when discovered. Really good work. It cost a few lives, but well worth it to him. And as Howard points out, getting some of your own killed is good strategy for Democrats. They love victims, dead or alive.
With respect. the Second Amendment has zero to do with this, except insofar as it poses questions of hypocrisy on BOTH sides. This post is an obvious Althouse deflection from the central question, which is whether killing this guy was legal.
We can all agree that he did nothing illegal by taking a gun to the demonstration. So no government right to shoot there.
I've reviewed the video evidence on line, and I agree with many third parties who have found no evidence that he ever drew or brandished a weapon. The video of him standing clearly shows him holding a phone. No right to shoot there, either.
Then the video shows he was knocked down and pinned to the ground. At that point the video evidence shows him being disarmed--the video shows the officer reached into Pretti's waistband.
After he was disarmed, the shots were fired--10 of them. It will be interesting to see whether a jury would agree that the officer had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury for anyone. And cross examination would matter.
We don't know everything yet, and we can seriously doubt whether we ever will. Let's hope that this time there will be an investigation, rather than a cover up. Note that a Trump appointed judge has already issued an order preventing the feds from destroying evidence.
SHOCKING TIES: Just GUESS Who's Strategist Leads Anti-ICE Signal MN Mob Hunting ICE Agents (Gets WORSE) – Twitchy https://share.google/2dYycFMoynKHDDHgq
They are conflating self-defense with human rites a la planned parenthood and other wicked solutions that defy rational reconciliation. Carrying, driving, etc. while confronting legislative enforcement officers amidst an insurrection in progress is probable cause.
I'm sorry he was killed. That should not have happened. BUT...he should never have been there. And you don't bring a gun into a situation to confront Federal officers on a mission. You may not like that mission, but if you walk into the middle of it carrying a gun, you're literally asking for trouble.
The left is on full rage production. And they are turning the very precarious minds they've nurtured and developed into screamingly rage-filled minds looking for trouble. He went there with a gun. He was actively in the middle of things, with a gun.
He may have been a nice guy. He probably was. He may have not deserved to die that day. But he put himself in that spot, at that moment. And I lay it on the people encouraging, breeding, enflaming this insurrection. From the ridiculous Governor of that state, to the incredibly childish and feckless Mayor of that city. Both are in well over their heads and are playing a very dangerous game with people's lives, and with our nation.
ICE is removing people from other states including my home state of Florida. We have no such goings on here. What is going on in Minneapolis is well focused, planned, financed, and supplied. Alex Pretti got caught up in the middle of it.
He should not have been there at all. He should be alive today.
RESIST leftists create a creepy faux police force that exists outside of actual law and outside of democracy.
yeah - that's a bit troublesome. But not to the hack D media.
Another leftie LARPer gets the Darwin award. I've been involved in some contious situations w/ LEOs, and I made sure to leave even my farmer's jackknife. The right to carry is not an OBLIGATION to carry, even when carrying would be truly stupid.
Approached by an LEO I stopped, held my arms in a Y and turned a slow 360°. "Not carrying. Pat me down if you wish." It's a tough job and I try to make it easier for thrm.
I wonder how someone like Walz could appeal to anyone
Billions of dollars in redistributive change schemes and warm collectivism are a first-order forcing of catastrophic anthropogenic climate change and cover-ups.
Walz and the MN Mayor - yeah. They have blood on their hands.
Stephen "We can all agree that he did nothing illegal by taking a gun to the demonstration.
True. However he took a gun to a violent and getting worse demonstration where another person had been killed and law enforcement personnel have been threatened with death and injured.
It wasn't illegal...it was stupid and asking for trouble. Stupidity should be illegal /s ...(I wish). I don't feel bad for stupid people. Especially those whose actions are likely going to drag other stupids into into their zone of stupidity.
Kakistocracy said...
So future Democratic administrations can just adopt the exact same interpretation of the Second Amendment that MAGA Republicans have been pushing over the last 24 hours? Can we quote you on that? Cite you in legal briefs?
In both the Renée Good and Alex Pretti cases, federal agents would be absolutely torn apart under oath—if they ever had to testify before a jury and face real cross-examination by skilled lawyers. They're only avoiding that scrutiny because the government refuses to let it happen.
So what are you doing on this message board you cowardly piece of shit?
Bart at 1:43 gets it.
The Twitchy piece linked by narciso notes that it appears that the ICE Watch group is using state DMV information to identify enemies of the state of Minnesota. Direct state coordination.
Stephen said...
With respect. the Second Amendment has zero to do with this, except insofar as it poses questions of hypocrisy on BOTH sides. This post is an obvious Althouse deflection from the central question, which is whether killing this guy was legal.
Althouse isn't deflecting.
She is posting media dishonesty for people to reflect on.
You are posting in bad faith.
Stephen "We can all agree that he did nothing illegal by taking a gun to the demonstration.
True. However he took a gun to a violent and getting worse demonstration where another person had been killed and law enforcement personnel have been threatened with death and injured
There was no demonstration at the time. It was 9 AM on a Saturday. It was ten below zero. The demonstration was hours later.
Peachy, I expected dishonest answers. But I got the truth from Howard. All this talk of a good or bad shoot, and gun rights misses the whole point. If you have people resisting federal authorities, there are going to be accidents, injuries, and violence, all of which benefits the Democrats by making Trump look authoritarian, by distracting from widespread Democrat fraud, and by keeping illegals in country as dependents and illegal voters. The violence is all good for Democrats and that's why it's happening, and why it never did when a Democrat President did the exact same federal action. They see it as the only tool they have to beat Trump, and that's why people must die.
Stephen: "Let's hope that this time there will be an investigation, rather than a cover up."
It's not a cover-up if you don't give a damn what anyone thinks, and you just refuse to dig up dirt on your own people.
Trump is just sick and tired of having himself and his followers hung out to dry by "neutral," "professional" career investigators and prosecutors. He is nowhere near cleaning the stables of these people. So he's just not going to play.
It's not a cover-up, it's a fuck-y'all-muthafuckas.
Like the Democrats do.
Bondi is the President's wingwoman! CC, JSM
Stephen said...
After he was disarmed, the shots were fired--10 of them. It will be interesting to see whether a jury would agree that the officer had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury for anyone. And cross examination would matter.
He was resisting arrest with a gun. He was in a place where he shouldn't have been trying to assault and harass law enforcement while they were doing the job we pay them to do.
If I was fighting with officers and they saw a gun and extra mags on me I would 100% expect to get shot.
Democrats have hired an army of thugs to harass and assault ICE officers while they are doing the job the majority of Americans want done.
It is hypocritical for a bad faith shithead like you to try to apply the law to an officer when you are supporting sedition and conspiracy to commit treason.
>And you don't bring a gun into a situation to confront Federal officers on a mission.
tbh, nobody should be confronting federal officers on a mission, armed or not. "Confronting" is definitionally not "peaceful protest."
You can make your voice heard by marching through some park, or holding a vigil outside the state capital, or praying outside the federal courthouse, etc.
Dear stupid people,
If the January 6tb protestors thought it was a good idea to carry guns to a protest, the Capitol would have been littered with corpses- and Michael Byrd would have gotten his due right then and there.
"Activists" are used to a soft touch, and are increasingly surprised that white privilege apparently doesn't exist. Whoopsie!
Howard projecting. He joins his people in celebrating the death because it can be used against his enemies. Maybe Howard will get lucky today and ICE will kill someone else.
"...We can all agree that he did nothing illegal by taking a gun to the demonstration...."
No. We can wait for the facts to be verified, but the facts on the ground say that he went armed with no official photo ID, and no carry permit, which means that he was carrying illegally with surplus ammunition under state law, when he confronted the ICE officers.
Stephen said...
We don't know everything yet, and we can seriously doubt whether we ever will. Let's hope that this time there will be an investigation, rather than a cover up. Note that a Trump appointed judge has already issued an order preventing the feds from destroying evidence.
You don't want an investigation or the truth. Your only goal here is to deflect from the truth.
The truth is a majority of Americans want illegal aliens deported and Democrats are dependent on illegal alien voters and census counts.
The Democrat party is a criminal organization and should be prosecuted under the RICO act and for conspiracy to commit treason.
Mary Beth said...
On X, there's been a lot of focus on whether a gun was removed and safely away before the man was shot. If I had removed a gun from someone and they made a move towards a pocket or waistband (or really anywhere, lots of places you can carry one), I would assume there's a second gun or some other weapon. Lots of people who carry think one is not enough.
I had to take a concealed carry class when I was given a taser. One of the instructors asked us how many guns we thought he had concealed. Two? Three? None of us guessed eight.
We can all agree that he did nothing illegal by taking a gun to the demonstration.
Wrong, under MN law. Because he wasn't carrying ID, as required, and didn't have his permit, as required, and was engaged in unlawful activities, as prohibited. Further, as pointed out by Shipwreckedcrew, didn't notify LE he was carrying- as required by MN law.
Dust Bunny Queen, Being stupid is not grounds for being shot 10 times after you've been disarmed, which is what the video record shows now. Would you favor a full investigation?
Gospace, So he wasn't carrying id and a permit. If true, how would that justify shooting him?
Howard said...
Exactly, Mason. Armed government thugs certainly gets my Irish up. That's more healthy and normal than you people getting chubbies like you have never seen before.
You are being a pathetic weasel.
If Democrats were following the law like 49 other states ICE picks up these criminals at the county jail. The only reason this is a problem is because Minnesota is releasing criminal illegal aliens from prison and refusing to cooperate with ICE.
If there is a choice between not enforcing immigration law and enforcing immigration law while some number of paid democrat thugs get shot we choose the latter every time.
Democrats are getting people shot on purpose. They are doing it so they can keep illegal aliens in the country.
You can cry about armed government thugs all you want. You know you are wrong about this.
Stephen, with all due respect, the central question is not "whether killing this guy was legal" The central question is: why did it happen? Why did MS Good have to die, and why will it continue, because it will. Fighting crime with police is dangerous. Some incidents may be justified or not in each case, but overall, none of them are, unless both the reason for ICE to be there and for the resistance to fight them are both justified.
BG, though it's a bet speculative, your argument would certainly relevant in any investigation. But do you think there should be an investigation?
Stephen said...
Gospace, So he wasn't carrying id and a permit. If true, how would that justify shooting him?
It doesn't.
What did justify shooting him was an armed person resisting arrest.
If an agent sees extra mags and a gun belt and a person fighting with other agents reaches for something at his belt that person gets shot every time.
One of the saddest things is that the dead guy does not seem like someone who would actually shoot anybody. His parents said he never carried that gun. His friends say he was a nice decent guy. So, here he is, showing off, or something, trying to impress, and he ends up dead, much to the delight of the left.
One curious thing is reportage of two clips. Photo shows one. Two would seem to indicate anticipation of using the gun. Kinda hard to believe.
My opinion, scuffle, guy in gray grabs the gun at same time as he or other says'GUN!!!". Agent reacts without actually seeing a weapon, but believing the protester does indeed have a gun in his hand and will fire .
bagoh20 said...
Stephen, with all due respect, the central question is not "whether killing this guy was legal" The central question is: why did it happen?
Pretti got shot because Stephen doesn't want immigration laws enforced and he is willing to get other people killed to keep his illegal voters in the country.
My opinion, scuffle, guy in gray grabs the gun at same time as he or other says'GUN!!!". Agent reacts without actually seeing a weapon, but believing the protester does indeed have a gun in his hand and will fire .
That’s what happened. Now what?
I think ICE picking up criminals is justified, legal, and beneficial to the community. Therefore resisting them is not. Unless of course politics is more important than the law or the safety of people in the community. More people will eventually be hurt and killed by letting these criminals go.
Bagoh 1:53
So so so very true.
and 2:08 - slam dunk.
Stephen said...
Dust Bunny Queen, Being stupid is not grounds for being shot 10 times after you've been disarmed, which is what the video record shows now. Would you favor a full investigation?
There will be a full investigation. It will show:
A man went to an insurrection to harass and assault ICE agents in order to impede their duties. He was assaulting other people in the street.
He illegally carried a gun with no ID and no permit.
He resisted arrest and reached for something at his belt as more than one officer positively ID'd a gun.
He got shot.
Only a bad faith piece of shit would be upset at the ICE officers in Minneapolis. They are under constant assault and harassment by a bunch of paid democrat thugs and they are doing what the vast majority of Americans want done which is deporting illegal democrat voters.
Mosby writes: "It's not a cover-up if you don't give a damn what anyone thinks, and you just refuse to dig up dirt on your own people."
No, I guess that's just stonewalling.
Effect is the same: if there is a crime, it will not be properly investigated, prosecuted and punished.
FullMoon - exactly. 2:06
The left are delighted that this poor guy put his body on the line - a sacrifice for the RESIST movement. Fuel for more rage.
Leftists get their hands on guns out of rage and feelings - not common sense.
’Unless of course politics is more important than the law or the safety of people in the community.’
Politics is far more important, for some reason. And, again, I notice that it isn’t so in every other city and state around the country where similar operations are being conducted. It’s almost like there’s a coordinated and deliberate attack on the rule of law by a confederate force…
If Democrats really want to have a big tent party that can win in 2028, they will have to make room for people who support having masked secret police indiscriminately murder American citizens.
The irreducible fact is that all of the chaos is invited by the city and state sanctuary policies. If they would simply follow the law and notify ICE before releasing one of their criminal illegals from jail or prison, so a peaceful and orderly transfer of custody could be effected, this would not happen. I really can't see how this situation is not a violent insurrection. What do Walz, Frey, et al. see as the end game here? Do they think the Trump administration will back off at this point? Are they asking for the destruction of their city and state, a federal takeover?
He resisted arrest and reached for something at his belt
Resisted arrest quite possibly. I don’t see him reaching for anything. The agents had punched him quite a few times by the time he was shot.
Alan from Whittier said...
My opinion, scuffle, guy in gray grabs the gun at same time as he or other says'GUN!!!". Agent reacts without actually seeing a weapon, but believing the protester does indeed have a gun in his hand and will fire .
That’s what happened. Now what?
We arrest every one of these paid democrat thugs and charge them with conspiracy to commit treason and sedition.
We arrest Walz, Frey, and every Minnesotan law enforcement official that is involved in telling courts and jails to not comply with federal law and charge them with conspiracy top commit treason and sedition.
We publicly hang the leadership that is getting people killed.
We find the people who are funding this and we publicly hang them after they are convicted of sedition and conspiracy.
We make a history lesson that is taught to every 6th grader for a generation.
Who here, other than Achilles, is prepared to defend the argument that there should be no investigation?
Ms. Althouse sometimes likes to feed red meat to her commentariat.
All 10 shots were fired after federal agents removed the gun from Alex Pretti’s waist. Every single one came once he had already been disarmed.
..the dead guy does not seem like someone who would actually shoot anybody. His parents said he never carried that gun..
Well! there you go! If his momma say's he's a nice guy.
Seriously,
IF he "never carried" a gun.. WHY did he pick yesterday to start?
Oh, that's right; because he was going to kill someone (a cop)
Stephen: "Effect is the same: if there is a crime, it will not be properly investigated, prosecuted and punished."
Better a hundred guilty ICE men go free, than one illegal remain in the country. CC, JSM
Alan from Whittier said...
He resisted arrest and reached for something at his belt
Resisted arrest quite possibly. I don’t see him reaching for anything. The agents had punched him quite a few times by the time he was shot.
Don't be dishonest. You are so far posting in good faith.
The democrats on this board say he was reaching for his phone and he obviously had it in his hand.
This is where any honest person gets off.
He reached for something at his belt after more than one officer PID'd a gun and called it out.
With all of the whistles and the spitting and rocks and snowballs it is shocking that only 2 shootings have happened so far.
In terms of whether he gets shot or not doesn't depend on him having a right to be armed, or if he even had a gun at all. Cops justifiably shoot people without actual guns pretty regularly. If a half-dozen cops are struggling to subdue him and one of them says "gun!", he's probably gonna get shot almost every time - gun or not. That's why all the cops jumped away as soon as they heard that. They didn't want to be wresting with gunfire. Correct or not, he got shot because the cops thought he was about to shoot one of them, period. The only way to prevent that is to not fight with a half-dozen cops, even with a cell phone or a fake gun. He'd be alive if he just complied, or never obstructed them.
All 10 shots were fired after federal agents removed the gun from Alex Pretti’s waist. Every single one came once he had already been disarmed.
Looks like it. Someone yelled gun and it seems like a different agent grabbed the gun, but still another agent might have thought it was Pretti’s hand who had it.
Whose fault it was is the matter of opinion.
He reached for something at his belt after more than one officer PID'd a gun and called it out.
I haven’t seen that. But it’s perfectly possible I haven’t seen every angle.
By the way, Achilles, you are correct that I don't want the feds to exercise their enforcement discretion to deport undocumented people who are working members of the community and otherwise law abiding. In other words I am among the more than half of Americans who think that the current ICE campaign has gone too far. I believe the country would be better off to find such people a way to citizenship.
And guess what: the question whether Pretti's killing was a crime or not does not turn on any of that at all.
Recordings are not determinative, must be reconciled with testimony and tangible evidence. At present, we know there was probablw cause to justify the use of lethal... abortive force.
"Who here, other than Achilles, is prepared to defend the argument that there should be no investigation?"
Not me, but who here is willing to defend that ICE has no right to pick up the criminals they are after?
" I believe the country would be better off to find such people a way to citizenship."
That's fine, but that's not the law, and that's not who they are after, so of what relevance is it?
Stephen said...
Gospace, So he wasn't carrying id and a permit. If true, how would that justify shooting him?
Nothing. But it adds to the totality of circumstance- he was carrying unlawfully.
And another immaterial question- Did he deserve to die? Completely immaterial.
Who's 100% responsible for Pretti's death? Pretti. He's the one single individual who could have prevented it. Who else is responsible? Each and every 100% "totally innocent" protester there blowing whistles, blocking traffic, creating, chaos, and making it impossible in the ensuing chaos for law enforcement to clearly communicate with each other. The shout of "GUN!" immediately creates a deadly force decision, and it was shouted when a gun became visible. And until it's clarified that the danger is passed- and crystal clear in the eyes of all those in the vicinity authorized to use it- deadly force is authorized. And since not everything is visible to everyone, well, sometimes someone becomes dead. And the shooter is 1- the person who killed and 2- completely innocent of any criminal charges or intent. The dead person is the ultimate responsible person for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I've not been in any of these life or death scenarios. Some of my children have- they're still alive. I've been in life or death decisions- either I quickly perform the correct actions or the machines blow up or overspeed or whatever, and me or me and others die. They're stressful enough. I'm not planning to go observe any riots.
To be fair we should do an investigation. Use the Michael Byrd shooting Ashli Babbit 'investigation' as the model. Some ICE guy is going to get a promotion and will open up a 'dacare center'.
Still looking for an answer. I assume most commenters would not endorse John Mosby's hopefully tongue in cheek view: "Better a hundred guilty ICE men go free, than one illegal remain in the country. CC, JSM" But if that's wrong, let me know. Otherwise, should there be an investigation here or not?
Random people on the street, or even a Governor do not get to decide who is picked up by ICE.
I read that Pretti didn't have any ID or concealed carry permit on him, which is required for "lawful gun owners" in Minnesota.
You don’t confront LEOS armed. Period. And if it looks like it’s going to be confrontational, and you are armed, in a peaceful and non confrontational way, you inform them that you are armed, and ask them what they want you to do.
Now in MT, outside Missoula, and maybe Helena, and esp in rural MT, they just assume that you are armed. But still, don’t go armed if there is a possibility of a LEO confrontation. The one place I disarm in town is going into the court rooms. And this includes going to see the JP in chambers, despite my knowing what he carries under his robes (G19), and him knowing what my normal concealed carry is (because I have taken his handgun class 4-5 times).
This guy was a Darwin level idiot. There has been a lot of talk on the left recently about arming up for self defense against LEOs. Even back 4 years ago, there were several protesters that night in Milwaukee carrying concealed weapons, including, famously, “lefty”, who pointed his Glock at Rittenhouse, and earned his new nickname name as a result. Most of their concealed firearms were, of course, illegal, either because they were felons, and/or because they were mentally ill.
The answer to all this is that you don’t go armed to a violent protest, with any intent to participate, in any way, on the side of the protesters. Not as a protester, or a legal observer, a legal advisor, a medic, etc.
Stephen said...
Who here, other than Achilles, is prepared to defend the argument that there should be no investigation?
Go show where I said there should be no investigation you dishonest piece of shit.
Of course there should be an investigation, but it will do nothing to end the violence, and will likely make it worse. So we have that to fight for.
Stephen said...
By the way, Achilles, you are correct that I don't want the feds to exercise their enforcement discretion to deport undocumented people who are working members of the community and otherwise law abiding. In other words I am among the more than half of Americans who think that the current ICE campaign has gone too far. I believe the country would be better off to find such people a way to citizenship.
Since we know you are just a dishonest piece of shit we will skip the part where you just admitted that you are part of a conspiracy to commit sedition.
I see that Aggie covered that close to the beginning of the thread. I generally post first and then read the comments, especially if there are a lot of them. It would seem that if that is the case, The Atlantic is picking the wrong hill to die on, figuratively speaking.
Bagoh20, I believe that ICE agents have the legal right to seek to apprehend undocumented persons who have committed crimes, provided they do so lawfully. I also believe that to the extent they carry those actions out in public, the public can monitor how they do so to make sure that they behave lawfully. And I believe that ICE agents should, and should be trained, to carry out their duties without unjustified harm to observers. It's the last belief that's in issue here. I take it we agree on that. Am I wrong?
Actually sedition isn't the only crime Stephen is committing.
He is also supporting foreign invaders and part of a conspiracy to obstruct and assault ICE agents from removing those foreign invaders from the country.
Stephen has openly admitted he is part of a conspiracy to commit treason.
Was the shooting of Lavoy Finicum a good shot?
There's the law and there's your feelz. To be a Democrat is to be unaware there's a difference between the two.
“but who here is willing to defend that ICE has no right to pick up the criminals they are after?”
Well, Stephen is, obviously.
Rittenhouse was attacked by armed protesters when they took affirmative action to deprive others of life, liberty, and property
during a nationwide confederacy of Democratic terrorism. A poignant observation.
I also believe that to the extent they carry those actions out in public, the public can monitor how they do so to make sure that they behave lawfully
Do you think Ice Watch merely “observes” and “monitors”? You obviously haven’t been here.
So if an investigation determines it an unjustified killing, who goes down:
the cop that shot,
the one who said "gun!",
the one who disarmed him,
the guy who brought the gun,
the guy who fought with police,
the governor that incited the violence,
I know the answer: "TRUMP!"
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