Said Independent MSP Ash Regan, quoted in "'I would love to be doing this in my 60s' - the debate over selling sex in Scotland" (BBC).
The quote in the headline is from someone called Porcelain Victoria, who "says she started selling sex when she was 18 and used it as a way to escape an abusive household": "I plan to do this until I can't, basically. I would love to be doing this in my 60s. My plan is to hopefully semi-retire and become a counsellor helping couples and solo people figure out their sexuality when it comes to kinks and fetishes."
I had to look up "punter." I looked it up in OED — not, say, in Urban Dictionary — because it was printed in the BBC. It means a whole lot of things, but in this context, it's the client of a prostitute.
The term "Nordic model" is explained in the article. It's the approach, used in Sweden, of making it a crime to pay for sex (and decriminalizing taking money for sex). Other countries following this approach: Norway, Iceland, Canada, Northern Ireland, Ireland, France, Israel, and Spain.
I think BBC is missing the point by forefronting Porcelain Victoria's positive outlook on a life of prostitution. The Nordic model seems designed to limit (or even end) prostitution. The prostitute is freed of the threat of criminal prosecution, and the client must not only fear prosecution but must fear that the prostitute will report him to the police. Or is the idea to promote mutually satisfying transactions?
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82 comments:
It's a logic that reminds me of Roe v. Wade. It's nice liberals, trying to get humanity to progress. And they throw out all of human history. "We have nothing to learn from the past!"
Prostitution has been illegal for almost all of human history, probably. Why? Well, because once a man rents your services, human sexuality is now a commercial transaction. (The government is probably thinking, "And we can tax it!")
Once you legalize it, of course, you are teaching young girls that it's fine, perfectly fine, to be a prostitute, to be a whore, to be a street-walking slut. No worries, dearie! It's your life, it's your choice. And what you are going to get, of course, is a remarkable rise in the number of prostitutes. And a remarkable rise in the number of criminal complaints involving prostitutes. And a remarkable rise in the number of abortions and infanticides. Yes, there is more sex. And we all love sex. But there is a dark side to human sexuality, Scotland. That is why the word "fuck" still has power.
“ Porcelain Victoria, who works in the Fife area, says sex work has given her an income that allows her to give her child the best life she can.”
Got to pay those high utility bills caused by Net Zero!
I think some of this was covered in It's a Wonderful Life.
The 'punter' on any NFL team carries a different sort of air about them when playing an NFL game in Europe.
If you were a regular reader,
you could have easily figured
out from context clues that a punter
is what Americans call a "john".
Your brain is getting so intellectually lazy from being read to, and having to continually consult grok and the OED to do your thinking for you.
What will you do when you get yourself into a spot (that's another word for "tight situation") and you are forced to think for yourself? Use it or lose it, proffy. Please stop relying on meade and your artificial helpers to think for you. You're a human animal, and will always need to think to survive in this increasingly predatory world...
Hth. Honestly. Just try to read a bit more, think independently and use your noggin -- think of it as daily exercise? -- as you age? All it will take is one deadly mistake, and you'll wish you had relied more on instinct, intuition and honed thinking skills...
It ought to lower the price of prostitution when the legal risk is moved to the john.
(Thanks for not getting off track, at least,
and educating us? on all the definitions of punter
and when it was first used in print, etc. You like trivia,
nttawwt, but it usually distracts you from your main point.
Again, hth. You don't want to come off looking like a dizzy chick outside the home, right? meade clearly encourage it to bring you down to his un(der)educated level, but it makes you look bad -- like you never belonged in the front of a classroom to begin with... Hth)
You know most of the people who turn to sex work to make needed cash, right ann? "Children" or young adults just out of childhood... They are tempted, naive, and cannot look ahead with the experience folks like you are supposed to have. Back when we had a more masculine-led society, there was an idea that children (and women too! nttawwt) needed to be protected from dirty, deadly old men. After Gaza, of course, all bets are off. The weaker they are, the faster they fall... Hey, I don't make the rules. And rules are being thrown out the window because elders like you are busy being childish, and don't think you have any responsibilities to your society. Sad really... At least meade isn't on here bragging about his "good deeds" for his community, ie/cleaning out clogged drains (just do it!) or taking pictures of dogs at the dogparks, whether people want their privacy invaded or not.
Don't stand in line for any civic awards, you two. Now go play?
Think of it like counterfeit money, or hot merchandise (no pun): The person who takes in stolen goods, or found to have marked bills, is the one who faces the greatest punishment. The creator (actual counterfeiter) of the marked bills is not considered as culpable. If you walk out of the Bank with marked money, the Bank is not liable, you are. The Pawn Broker who sold you a stolen TV, won't be prosecuted, nor will the Thief (stolen auto parts) face as severe penalty. It's the Receiver that always gets prosecuted. I never understood why it doesn't work the same way with Prostitution. Why don't the Johns face the same sentence ?
The Republicans had Jesse Helms ("Senator No") and Nancy Reagan ("Just say no.")
We're not afraid to be negative!
The Democrats have a tendency to try to be nice. "Say yes to everything!"
"Our 13-year-old is having sex, dear."
"Is she using birth control?"
"Yes. And sodomy."
"No problems then. As long as we don't have another mouth to feed."
We are living in the end times.
I have read of the word "punter" in many, many contexts. Usually as a pejorative.
Jesse just say no to commies (both here and abroad) consuming hard drugs is a hard lesson from the copybook we had to relearn
When scotland goes sharia
"My daughter is a sex worker and nobody better call her anything else or I will be furious."
Was it the analysis comparing it to Roe v. Wade? Unintended consequences? A dramatic rise in what is now legal?
The client and the prostitute aren't responsible for sex trafficking, so why are either of them being punished?
How about the Uber model where the organization provides some guidelines and regulatory compliance, with clients and prostitutes rating each other to encourage good behavior.
Conflating sex trafficking with sex work obscures the fact that some people choose sex work as a convenient way to make money.
Who's against prostitution? First assumption is wives. It diminishes the power of withholding sex. Then fathers whose daughters see money in it. Maybe displaced by online porn production now.
Feminism is all about removing the application of shame to women.
They’re already sleeping around like prostitutes, they just need to remove the stigma of expecting money up front.
When they said a woman could become anything, this was already something she could become.
I first ran across the term as used by a Yorkshireman (ex RAF helicopter mechanic) in Singapore, being a pub manager at the time, in reference to his customers. It wasnt a pejorative.
The Nordic model seems designed to limit (or even end) prostitution. The prostitute is freed of the threat of criminal prosecution, and the client must not only fear prosecution but must fear that the prostitute will report him to the police. Or is the idea to promote mutually satisfying transactions?
The Nordic model is an admission that the issue exists and an attempt to discourage it without being too heavy handed. It's a model that works because most of the Nordic countries are high trust societies and have homogenous populations. I seriously doubt it would work in Britain.
If they wanted to promote good trade practices they would adopt the Dutch model where it's totally legal as long as the proper licenses are obtained and the regulations are followed.
Loury and McWhorter on preventing people from saying what they think, in reference to Nick Fuentes but applying to Althouse forbidding the n-word. Loury translates what is said as saying that we're tired of your jim crow shit, clean up your act and stop shooting people at christmas tree lightings. (after minute log 20)
Also used as a reference to gamblers, or stock market investors, by my Irish uncle (working for Jardines in Hong Kong at the time).
Raping and pillaging was the Nordic model for quite a while.
Both the ex-RAF Yorkshireman and my Irish uncle died of cirrhosis in Manila. To no-ones surprise.
Will people still be talking about the new Nordic model in 1400 years? Will there be a sports team called the Sex Workers?
The Fighting Prostitutes?
punt(n.1)
in football, "a kick of the ball as it is dropped from the hands and before it strikes the ground," 1845; from punt (v.).
- etymonline.com
Friendship with "benefits" and taxable capital returns. A probable "burden", a liability, an unplanned shared responsibility is why reproductive rites are imperative to the progress of social liberal club under Obamacares. Also for the viability of pedo as the third leg and why transgender is trendy.
Ann is titillating her punters A punter is a mark, fool, someone in over his head. The opposite of a player.
Porcelain Victoria is a perfectly cromulent name for a hooker. Or a punk band…
Punter doesn't necessarily have a negative connotation in Ireland.
As a former punter of the American football type, I am shocked at the levels of negativity and punterphobia being exposed in this post.
A power balance was struck with planned parenthood that performs Capitol punishment as legalized abortion of the "burden" of evidence and the punter's shared responsibility and financial liability. You've come along way, baby (pun intended).
The Nordic model is inferior to the American model, where instead of paying them cash you can take just them to dinner and have all the sex you want. The only casualty here isn't the punter but what we Yanks call the "field goal kicker" who can't get it between the uprights.
A punter is a player of prostitutes in fact. This is the probable motivation for our foremothers to establish the institution of marriage in order to sustain the power balance of the sexes. #HateLovesAbortion
Unless you read the article or are familiar with British sex-work law, you might not notice that selling sex in and of itself is legal in Scotland. Only certain time/place/manner restrictions hold right now: you can't streetwalk, keep a brothel, etc. Swapping money for sex is seen as equivalent to swapping dinner and a movie for sex, or a wedding ring for (less) sex.
The proposed statute would make the transaction itself illegal for the first time, but only for the buyer.
You can tell which side of the debate the BBC are on by their juxtaposition of the bill sponsor's unflattering picture with Porcelain Victoria's. Ash Regan MSP is made to look like the only woman in Scotland who would pass the "now we're just haggling over the price" test. CC, JSM
I think "legalized" prostitution is, unfortunately, the norm in most parts of the world (especially Muslim countries) and through most of human history. There is something of paradox of tolerance and condemnation with regards to prostitution. I think prostitution is tolerated as a "lesser evil" because we believe that young men will seek out sexual relations no matter what. Accordingly, prostitutes serve to protect respectable women (especially pretty, young college educated girls!) from seduction and rape.
I believe that prostitutes are horrifically abused and exploited and don't really care that middle class White women insist on it as an outlet for their violent, deranged sons. I mean seriously, what's next? A detailed look at the girl bosses behind Japan's "comfort women" system?
So Pornhub and Onlyfans are legal, billion dollar businesses. And in pursuit of content I can legally contract Amy and Bob to have sex, while I film. And I suppose I can substitute myself for Bob, and also film and post the same. But if I contract solely with Amy, and don’t film, it becomes prostitution, and is illegal. Please help me with the legal reasoning here.
Manger: Amy and Bob are not paying each other for sex. You the porn impresario are paying to watch them have sex, not to have sex with them. I admit it's pretty thin gruel (that's what the director said after a disappointing money shot!), but that has been the reasoning for many years.
It does become a bit more complicated if you are a director/performer. I would imagine the smarter people in that category insulate themselves with an LLC or something so their natural person self is not paying anyone. CC, JSM
So this is why Bears fans are upset about the team drafting a punter in the fourth round.
A real lot of the world loves debasement of people.. hence prostitution and pedophilia reign large.... they see no harm in harming themselves or others.
Sexuality is connected to some dark corners of the id. I'm sure that a monogamous marriage based on mutual respect is most predictive of a long, happy life. I'm also sure that a diet of leafy greens, olive oil, and broiled cod is predictive of a healthy life. But we must traverse a world filled with brisket and porn.....Is there any possibility that some women also have their kinks and fetishes? Is is possible that the degradation and danger of prostitution are features and not bugs.
And here I thought the entire purpose of prostitution was to have easy, meaningless sex, and the purpose of the payment involved was to have the other participant, both hooker and john, required to go away afterwards.
Money Manager: There are taxes to be paid somewhere in both the filmed and non-filmed versions, perhaps that is the difficult part of legalizing prostitution, generally a cash business, versus pornography, which is often run at least a bit more according to GAAP. A counterargument to my thought would be that cash apps make the main participants in both subject to audits for taxation purposes, so perhaps outlawing cash entierly is a first step to legalizing prostitution.
I just read a history of Sally Rand and Faith Bacon. They were two fan dancers who vied for dominance of the midway during the Chicago World Fair. Sally Rand achieved lasting fame as the most famous fan dancer of her era, but Faith Bacon was the originator of the dance......Sally's father abandoned her at an early age, and the attention she received while dancing nude was as gratifying as the money. Faith had a stage mother who was herself a failed performer. The mother was the one who first obliged Faith to appear nude and who expropriated the money she made.....Sally's own needs exploited her, which is, perhaps, better than being exploited by your own mother. At any event, it wasn't men who first exploited them.
Is the money given a prostitute a tip and thus nontaxable or is it part of their income and subject to taxes?
Keep women affordable, available, reusable, and taxable, and the "burden" of evidence aborted, sequestered in sanctuary states. #NoJudgment #NoLabels #Whatever
Is is possible that the degradation and danger of prostitution are features and not bugs.
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Sounds like somebody is indulging his own fantasies (nttawwt) and of course, there is plenty of that type of porn to meet your needs too...
buwaya said...
I first ran across the term as used by a Yorkshireman (ex RAF helicopter mechanic) in Singapore, being a pub manager at the time, in reference to his customers. It wasnt a pejorative.
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Lol. I think it was, you just assumed from his friendly demeanor, and willingness to take your cash, that he approved of the vice he was selling you, old man. lol
One must also be very careful using the word "brass" on English football forums. (It's not about the trombones and trumpets, lad.) Porcelain Victoria embodies a lot of it, from multiple perspectives.
Howard said...
Ann is titillating her punters A punter is a mark, fool, someone in over his head. The opposite of a player.
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I'm proud of her not begging from them anymore.
They will still "tip" and send their commissions her way, I bet. It just looked unseemly always with the hand out. Like, let her old man get a part time job bringing in shopping carts at Menards if the pension and Soc. Security aren't meeting the household needs already...
Sometimes you really don't see things the way other people do until it's pointed out. She's grown. I am proud of her. Nothing wrong with listening to other opinions and considering how you're coming across, after all. Sometimes the teachers who tell you to stop pulling your skirt so high and exposing your luscious young body to others really do have your best interests at heart, though you would never admit it at the time, and take that as a cue to double down and "be free" to stick it more in everyone's faces, so they can't not see your budding young sexuality...
We're a community. We should look out for one another, and help each other to see.
Prostitution was legal.in Rhode Island between 1980 and 2009, because there was no specific statute against it. I don't recall society falling apart in those 2.9 decades.
It does become a bit more complicated if you are a director/performer. I would imagine the smarter people in that category insulate themselves with an LLC or something so their natural person self is not paying anyone. CC, JSM
--------------
You'd be amazed at the dollar amouns some of these companies/directors/performers collected during the pandemic under the PPP program. Fair enough, I guess. They are legitimate businesses who had to isolate/couldn't work. Lots of them used the time/money to fully transition, it seems... Nikki Hearts/Amanda Zerby and Lance Hart/now Mama Hart (formerly married to Goth Charlotte/Charlotte Satre) come to mind...
Ask me how I know? Some people follow WWW for the characters, sex work online performance is so similar, really... I just pop in to check on them every so often.
Nikki is an EMT now, gone straight (lol) after transitioning. Trans Masc. Good for him! Contributing to society
Lucy Hart rather... Lance became Lucy. "Mama" is just a nickname, I guess... (not into them. But I liked the former wife....)
Saint Croix,
"You wear too much eye makeup."
"Hmmph!"
"My sister wears too much; people think she's a wh*re."
--Charlie Sheen, playing himself in Ferris Bueler's Day Off
@MoneyManger, just put yourself in the credits as a Stunt Double.
The spam filter was harsh on comments here. Presumably, it's trying to catch prostitutes who try to advertise. Please don't talk about it other than to simply alert me that there's something I need to get out of spam because then I have to delete those comments after I get the things out of spam. Thanks. And don't apologize. Just get back onto the subject.
Gropers are the second leg in the liberal triad.
Money Manger said...
"So Pornhub and Onlyfans are legal, billion dollar businesses. And in pursuit of content I can legally contract Amy and Bob to have sex, while I film. And I suppose I can substitute myself for Bob, and also film and post the same. But if I contract solely with Amy, and don’t film, it becomes prostitution, and is illegal. Please help me with the legal reasoning here."
The Law is simply a tool of Big Camera.
. . . I've said too mu-
"Punter" in the UK can also mean a fellow who places a bet with the local bookie.
One important person left out of this power dynamic is the procurer, or the p*mp.
Some how I started thinking about the story of Tamar from the Bible who frustrated by her brother-in-law's failure to assume her deceased husband's responsibilities set herself up as a roadside prostitute to get herself impregnated by him. She had twins. The narrators didn't seem to think she did anything wrong.
Real story, involving Trump, kinda. It seems that women of a certain profession are not allowed to work the (DJT) bar and common areas in his Las Vegas hotel. Not that they don’t, but are evicted as soon as they are identified. After being notified that they will be prosecuted for trespass if they return.
But what if they are paying guests there? Perfectly legal, as long as they come down to the lobby to pick up their customers. But then comes the scam. Sometimes t.hey ask their guests to shower first. Then, they go through their customer’s wallet, taking what they find interesting (e.g. cash). Then, they call security, and ask that their guests be removed from their rooms. All very proper. When their customers complain about their lightened wallets, they are told that they can call the police, and get them involved. Unfortunately, that means that it may take a couple days to clear up (possibly resulting in missed return flights) and in cases like this, names often come out in the paper. It’s a pretty one sided scam. The only thing that the hotel can do is put the ladies involved on a Do Not Rent list, and tell them that they aren’t ever welcome there again, in case they somehow sneak in again. And, yes, they do keep photos of the women for just this reason. And there is possibly some evidence that they share personal information about these women with other luxury hotels in the area. (There are always plenty of lower priced rooms for rent for those in their business).
I stereotyped above about the sexes of the two parties. That is not to say that other types of relationships don’t exist. After all, this is Vegas, where you can buy pretty much anything for enough money. We knew (died last summer) one guy who lived there who was gay. He owned his unit, so couldn’t actually be prevented from staying there. He did have questionable people up to his room. And was forbidden from lingering in the common areas (bar, store, pool - but for his tight swim suit showing off his junk to children). He likely was a purchaser early in the month, when he got his trust fund check, but maybe a seller later in the month, when he was broke.
A punter is somebody who places a bet or takes a chance. Visiting prostitutes is certainly taking a chance.
I wonder about this "Do what I say, or I'll turn you in to the cops." Is that really what goes on? It doesn't seem like a very secure basis for a relationship.
Punters are from Puntland.
Read about Puntland here: The Puntland Model
We have troops there as of like yesterday.
"BREAKING
U.S. special operations troops and Puntland Counter-Terrorism Forces carried out a pre-dawn assault on ISIS-Somalia hideouts in the Baalade Valley. More than 100 American operators arrived by MH-60 helicopters with MQ-9 Reapers overhead, striking cave positions held by about 10 to 15 ISIS fighters in the Bakuuje and Mareero areas of the Cal Miskaad range. PCTF pushed in with roughly 200 troops after several days of U.S. airstrikes that had already killed multiple militants.
Early results indicate a senior ISIS-Somalia commander and several aides were killed, along with a total of 5 to 10 terrorists. Forces also destroyed weapons caches and equipment used for gold-mining operations that funded the group.
Puntland’s leadership says its Operation Hilaac now controls almost all of the Cal Miskaad mountains and aims to eliminate ISIS-Somalia by December 2025."
https://x.com/Osint613/status/1993306288625729930
Punting ain't easy.
Would the people of the Victorian Era smile or be horrified at how erotic later Britons find their era to be? Queen Victoria's secret probably wasn't anything sexual at all.
And what is the secret behind the store Victoria's Secret? The long-time owner was Epstein's associate and major benefactor, so there's much to ponder there.
Lost wisdom from the spam file: A punter is a someone who places a bet or takes a chance. Visiting prðstitutes is always taking a chance.
"Prostitution was legal.in Rhode Island between 1980 and 2009"
Come for the clams, stay for the crabs?
Who the heck is buying sex from sexagenarian hookers?
Blair at 2:01, nice one
Who the heck is buying sex from sexagenarian hookers?
Octogenarians.
In the USA, we call them Johns, because of a recognition that they need to be anonymous ("John Smith"). Because buying your sex is an admission that you cannot get the love that you want.
Men want sex and women want money. The opposite is also true, of course. But part of the reason that men want money is to get sex. And part of the reason that women want sex is to get money. That's because we are biologically different. And women get pregnant and men do not get pregnant.
To reduce the act of love to a commercial transaction is Satanic, in that it is momentarily fun. But without passion and love, it also feels empty. Satan promises you money or sex to keep you unhappy.
Feminism skews human sexuality. With its sole focus on girls and women, feminism seeks to control the divorce courts, and to get money from men all the time. Feminism seeks to give women and girls the power to kill any offspring that might cost them money. Feminism also seeks to say that women are always right, and all their choices are right.
I say to anyone who will hear me, be a humanist, not a feminist. (Quoting Meryl Streep, before the mob went after her).
Kirk at 9:34. You nailed it. He's still playing himself.
I recently saw Ferris in another movie, No Hard Feelings. The movie is very on point, by the way. Ferris is the wealthy father of a young teen who is terrified of girls, terrified of men, terrified of college, terrified of life. And so his father (Ferris) pays a girl (Jennifer Lawrence) to seduce him. And she needs the money, so she accepts the gig.
Solid B+. I did not recognize Ferris at first.
No Hard Feelings (2023) So this is a fun movie. It’s awkward in places, and fake in other places. And it’s amateurish, too, you can spot some filmmaking mistakes. But there’s a lot of real emotions in this film. It’s a sex comedy, not a romantic comedy. Jennifer Lawrence is the star of this movie, and she produced it. And she’s starring with a nobody, Andrew Barth Feldman. It’s the perfect casting, because his character is a nobody, and the movie is all about how she finally sees him, and herself. It’s an amateurish and brilliant movie. Good show.
When I was 17, a buddy of mine, who was 16, wanted to do something. "Let's do something," he said, aggravated with me sitting on the couch. I just wanted to watch TV, or whatever the hell I was doing.
"What do you want to do?" I asked.
"I don't know," he said.
"You want to go to a strip club?"
So we went to a strip club. I think we were both virgins. I discovered, when we were at the strip club, that my buddy had no cash. Which was annoying as shit. So I had to pay for him and me. As a consequence, neither of us had any money in the strip club. I had another $5 maybe, and I bought a beer and tipped the bartender, and I was down to one dime.
So we're watching the girls. This was not a high class strip club. Our strippers were not pretty. And they weren't naked all the way, either. There was some butt-wiggling, right in my friend's face. And then she asked him to "contribute to my dance." And he said he didn't have money. (He didn't). So then the stripper, kinda upset about this incompetence in the strip club, asked me how much money I had. And I told the truth.
"I got a dime."
And they refused to dance anymore. And my buddy said, "We better get out of here."
And I said, "Okay."
And one of the old guys at the bar, said to another old guy at the bar, "Boys will be boys."
They used to call it "white slavery" when girls were imported for sex. You weren't a slave, technically, but you were renting your body to men to do what they want, for a price. Strange that our country is obsessed with Jeffrey Epstein right now. And Scotland is all, "Let there be 10,000 Jeffrey Epsteins."
Ever sex-worker advocate is a paid shill for someone other than the poor women selling their bodies at the street-corner in some crappy neighborhood everynight. It's not all Netflix sugar-daddy bougie of fine cars, big houses, and designer handbags. Wish it would not be continually portrayed as a reasonable career option for pretty girls in movies and internet media.
Where are the libertarian free market advocates in this comment thread? Where are the feminists who encourage the use of female sexual "power" ?
IMHO, prostitution should be decriminalized. In a world beset by porn, Onlyfans, internet sex-for-sale sites ala the defunct Backpage, we are letting it happen ... and there seems to be quite the audience -- and NO shortage of young women willing to bare everything for any whim whatsoever. Not that I object. They weren't around when I was younger but I am enjoying what I can now.
Since prostitutes and their clients create so many social costs and lower the housing value of law-abiding citizens, what they should be investigated and arrested for is tax fraud.
Spiros, your mother may think that way, but it's a minority opinion, and I would imagine even moreso among your pathetic rage fantasy "middle class white women."
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