And here's something McBride said, elsewhere in the long discussion: "I think just candidly, I think we lost the art of persuasion. We lost the art of change-making over the last couple of years.... I think a lot of it can be traced to a false sense of security that the L.G.B.T.Q. movement and the progressive movement writ large began to feel in the postmarriage world. There was a sense of cultural momentum that was this unending, cresting wave. There is this sense of a cultural victory that lulled us into a false sense of security and in many ways shut down needed conversations.... I think people said: Well, the T. is part of the acronym. I support gay people, so I’ll support trans people — it’s all the same movement.... I think that resulted in a lot of us — a lot of our movement — stopping the conversation and ceasing doing the hard work of opening hearts and changing minds and telling stories that over 20 years had shifted and deepened understanding on gay identities that allowed for marriage equality to be built on solid ground.... And the support for trans rights was a house built on sand."
ADDED: Speaking of losing the ability to speak persuasively, the memorable metaphor — the "unending, cresting wave" — contains the seeds of its own destruction. The moment you think you're on an "unending, cresting wave," you should know you're perception is wrong. A cresting wave is about to crash. But that may support McBride's point: People were delusional.
AND: Speaking of metaphor, I deplore the violence of "How to Beat Back Trump."
Posts
96 comments:
Shorter version: LGBTQ+ and trans folk were total assholes for so long that normies finally got tired of them and their power plays.
The "unending and cresting wave" is a revealing description. "Progressives" are never done. They never rest. It's in the name. They must "progress."
"I think just candidly, I think we lost the art of persuasion. We lost the art of change-making over the last couple of years.... I think a lot of it can be traced to a false sense of security that the L.G.B.T.Q. movement and the progressive movement writ large began to feel in the postmarriage world. There was a sense of cultural momentum that was this unending, cresting wave."
Here is where they let the mask slip. It never was about diversity and/or inclusivity. It was about discouraging reproduction (also of a piece with enshrining abortion), and in line with the Long March through institutions, disrupting traditional norms.
They shouldn't be surprised that a lot of people weren't buying what they were selling.
Nah, rubbing your political opponents primitive snout in your beliefs, through the use of raw political power, is much more satisfying to people.
"It's not my job to educate you" is just a concession that many of your views are largely indefensible to any rational person with rational emotions.
There was a sense of cultural momentum that was this unending, cresting wave.
And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. Our energy would simply prevail. There was no point in fighting—on our side or theirs. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .
So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.. -- Hunter S Thompson
Israel was literally built on a house of sand...
Good luck trying to distract with your trans issues in these days of wartime, ann.
You'll need to find a bigger scapeboat.
"Hey? We're gonna get you too...
Another one bites the dust!"
The following exchange made me laugh because I was standing next to Boy George back in the 90s when he called a working class guy a "brute" after he didn't hear the Culture Club star ask for a cigarette, thinking he was ignoring him intentionally. To this day I call that guy "brute."
Boy George Calls JK Rowling A Bully, And It Backfires Immediately
The exchange began with Rowling, who asked a simple question: “Which rights have been taken away from trans people?”
Someone responded to her, referring to her as a Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist (TERF) and saying, “The freedom to live without constant persecution, which you and your TERFarmy have taken from them.”
Rowling was not buying that, and replied, “When ‘persecution’ is redefined to mean ‘not being allowed to reorganise society based on unfalsifiable feelings, to compel everyone else’s speech and belief and to take rights away from other protected groups’ you’ll be absolutely right.”
That was when Boy George weighed in, scolding Rowling: “The right to be left alone by a rich bored bully!”
The “Harry Potter” author availed herself then of the opportunity to explain her point further, telling the musician, “There are many differences between us, George, but some are particularly relevant to this debate. 1. You’re a man and I’m a woman. 2. You’ve been wealthy and famous since your early 20s. I didn’t become well known until I was well over 30. 3. I’ve never been given 15 months for handcuffing a man to a wall and beating him with a chain. 4. I believe in freedom of speech and belief.”
#1 The "politics of grace" doesn't involve forcing people to lie for you.
#2 Screaming is not persuasion.
#3 Trans already have rights...the same rights as everyone else.
#4 Your chromosomes will determine your sex, then, now, and forever. IOW, you will never be a woman. Ever.
There's a few other minor points of order, but without an agreement on the 4 above, there can't be a conversation about "trans rights".
"..I think we lost the art of persuasion. We lost the art of change-making ..."
She's right about that, kind of. They've lost the desire to try persuading people with ideas, and instead they now claim the authority to demand your obedience, including on private thoughts. Because their ideas are of poor value, even offensive to some. And just to cap it off, they're still shocked at the last election results, so they're failing to comprehend just how far down in a hole they are.
McBride does not understand two things
1. The LGB “community” is starting to realize that the T “community” is their enemy. How many gay teenagers are being groomed into life destroying regimens because groomers have convinced them that they are the wrong gender instead of just gay?
2. Science. Most people understand that you cannot change sexes. 500 years from now when archeologists excavate McBride’s grave the only thing for sure they will know about him is that he was a man.
Hot dogs are dogs too.
Don’t mess with JK
The support for trans rights was a house of horrors built on sand.
"It's not my job to educate you" was always an obnoxious intellectually lazy thing to say because it was always in the context of "you need to agree with me, but it's not my job to tell you why."
If you want me to agree with you, of course it's your job to say why.
"And here's something McBride said, elsewhere in the long discussion: 'I think just candidly, I think we lost the art of persuasion.'"
Sorry, but you'll never be able to persuade people that grooming children to join a sexuality cult of the mentally ill is about civil rights and inclusion.
Their idea of education involves camps and prisons. Which they might have gotten away with until they shut down the schools and gave away the game.
…self flattery begat from arrogance. Alternative theory: what you believed was momentum was plain vanilla tolerance then the pedophiles were invited and the women began to realize you were destroying sport and momentum became justified revulsion…
"Hot dogs are dogs too."
Lol. Buffalo wings are buffalos too.
"..people said: Well, the T. is part of the acronym. I support gay people, so I’ll support trans people — it’s all the same movement.."
my 93 year old mom (a card carrying democrat) FULLY Supports the LBGT movement..
Because NPR told her too.
my mom ALSO thinks that Gays and Trans are THE SAME PEOPLE..
That's right; my mom thinks that ALL gays are Trans
(i'm pretty sure, that she's Never given any thought to the other letters).
*it's all about loving someone in the privacy of your own home
*it's all about being able to marry the one you love
*BAKE THE DAMN CAKE!!
*hey kids! let me show you how to excite old men by twerking!
Go etymology. What are perverts turned away from?
"How to Beat Back Trump on Trans Rights" The framing itself is dishonest: Trump is just riding his own wave--cresting at the moment, though not endless. Some issues can't be settled by "persuasion," particularly if you try to persuade me to unfollow the science. And some of us, call us conservative, don't want the "postmarriage" world progs have been promoting.
Show that normal heterosexual attraction makes no sense.
And here's something McBride said, elsewhere in the long discussion: "I think just candidly, I think we lost the art of persuasion.
Coercion is more of a kick.
Lautreamont describes a funeral
The priest of religions heads the procession, holding in one hand a white flag, the sign of peace, and in the other a golden device depicting the male and female privy parts, as if to indicate that these carnal members are most of the time, all metaphor apart, very dangerous tools in the hands of those employing them, when manipulated blindly to different and conflicting ends, instead of engendering a timely reaction against that well-known passion which causes nearly all our ills. To the small of his back is attached (artificially, of course) a horse's tail, thick and flowing, which sweeps dust off the ground. It means, beware of debasing ourselves by our behaviour to the level of animals. The coffin knows the way and moves behind the billowing vestment of the comforter. The relatives and friends of the deceased, demonstrating their position, have decided to bring up the rear of the procession. The latter advances majestically like a vessel that cleaves the open sea, and does not fear the phenomenon of sinking; for at this moment tempests and reefs are conspicuous only by their understandable absence.
Should have left the kids alone.
The trans hype/tragedy was a perfect storm of social media, greedy doctors, and Gay Inc. needing to stay in business.
Males who "transition" aren't exempt from getting prostate cancer. Awkward...
I think that resulted in a lot of us — a lot of our movement — stopping the conversation and ceasing doing the hard work of opening hearts and changing mind
We need our own Joe Rogan…
JK is not j/k
"Post-marriage" world huh? Is that what Oberfell and the other "gay marriage" decisions meant? It wasn't additive to the Left, as they dishonestly sold it. It was destruction of an institution and they knew it. So did we. And we were told, "It doesn't hurt YOU that those dudes can marry, you haters!"
But they were angling to end "marriage" as we know it by degrading it further, pushing polyamory, talking about marrying animals as the next frontier. Like all institutions, they wanted in so they could gut it and wear it's carcass as a skin suit while mocking normal Americans.
It's hard to persuade people when you've lost touch with reality.
Our new "post-marriage world" is a "cultural victory?" The increase in Fatherless households has correlated with increased violence, crime, school dropouts, incarceration, mental illness and suicide. And a continuation of Fatherless households into the next generation. Yay new culture!
Another instance of Dems underestimating young people. They voted Trump, which the Dems couldn't imagine happening. And the Gen Z women don't want men in their athletics.
When the podcast describes Klein interviewing Sarah McBride, you think it's a man talking to a woman. But it's two men talking with no women.
Like all institutions, they wanted in so they could gut it and wear it's carcass as a skin suit while mocking normal Americans.
----------
Hit the tipjar, mate.
Meade is gonna have to pay to have that camper truck properly maintained. He's not handy with the tools, that one.
@Disparity Of Cult, you reminded me of the joke:
Doctor: Sir, we have your diagnosis and the prognosis doesn’t look go...
"Excuse me Doctor?…I’M A LADY!"
Doctor: Sorry lady, you have prostate cancer.
baghdadbob said...
Our new "post-marriage world" is a "cultural victory?" The increase in Fatherless households has correlated with increased violence, crime, school dropouts, incarceration, mental illness and suicide. And a continuation of Fatherless households into the next generation. Yay new culture!
-----------
All the single ladies
(all the fatherless babies...)
All the single ladies
(all the fatherless babies...)
All the single ladies
(all the fatherless babies...)
Those poor boys raised without fathers in the home seek a Daddy in the bedroom. Those boys ain't making babies with women the old fashioned way... there was no Daddy at home to teach them. Single moms deferred. Stepdads came in the picture too late it seems. But... step grandbabies! That's gotta be fun at Christmastime at least?
STOP forcing kids to think Trans is normal. Nepo babies in Hollywood only get attention these days if they are "brave" and come out trans!! It's the "it" thing to do!!
This fits nicely with the previous post about the lack of children in thriving societies. That is really what they're arguing for, right?
Just a couple dudes sittin' around shootin' the breeze.
I think a lot of it can be traced to a false sense of security that the L.G.B.T.Q. movement and the progressive movement writ large began to feel in the postmarriage world. There was a sense of cultural momentum that was this unending, cresting wave.
They were just stupid tools.
I don't expect stupid tools to understand the nature of history and that it swings like a pendulum.
I hope the decent Gay and Lesbian people do not get swept up in the backlash that is coming for the degenerate left.
T & Q never belonged in the LBG movement. The latter defines a sexual preference—the former defies biology. LGB doesn’t want the TQ coat tails. Neither does the general public. That is why the Ts are losing ground. That, and the obvious injustice of men competing in women’s sports.
It takes time for consensus to form.
One thing that is now inevitable is that marriage between a man and a woman will be heavily incentivized and so will child raising.
Society is going to reform around the nuclear family as the core building block of society. There is too much data showing how important it is and the town square is now open to all to share that information.
Ah, there it is again: "There was a sense that..." My philosophy professor would b3 appalled.
Sex and gender (i.e. sex-correlated attributes). A transgender spectrum, and transsocials, too. It's over? Perhaps not.
"I hope the decent Gay and Lesbian people do not get swept up in the backlash that is coming for the degenerate left."
Decent gay and lesbian people got swept up in this craziness from the get-go. It became about stonewall-solidarity instead of realizing their new fraternals were completely insane.
I hope you're right. Lesbians especially have been particularly aggrieved by trans abuse so much you'd think they would've long ago parted company until you realize that so many lesbians have helped create these monsters.
In all too many cases, trans-kids are the sons of lesbian couples. You've all seen them.
Simply a rerun of this observation from a century ago. Now that there is pushback that is having effect, they are going back to "democratic until further notice".
"The Social Democrats were democratic only so long as they were not the ruling party; that is, so long as they still felt themselves not strong enough to suppress their opponents by force. The moment they thought themselves the strongest, they declared themselves— as their writers had always asserted was advisable at this point— for dictatorship. Only when the armed bands of the Rightist parties had inflicted bloody defeats on them did they again become democratic “until further notice.” Their party writers express this by saying: “In the councils of the social democratic parties, the wing which declared for democracy triumphed over the one which championed dictatorship.” "
--Mises, Ludwig von (1927). Liberalism
Trans/homosexuals are a binary simulation. Trans/bisexuals are a pure model, equivocal and inclusive.
New parents used to worry, what if the kid needs braces? How will we pay for them? Now it's puberty blockers and Frankenstein surgeries. What a world, what a world as the Wicked Witch of the West liked to say.
Most people do not exercise liberal license to entertain Diversity (i.e. color judgment, class bigotry) a.k.a. bloc ideologies, so tolerance of individuals in the transgender spectrum (e.g. homosexuals) will be unaffected by a few rotting apples. #HateLovesAbortion
There is no pride in the spectrum that has no redeeming value to society or humanity, but individuals can feel confident in their conceived dignity and earned merit, and couplets can, if not celebrated, be tolerated in a functional society. That said, civil unions for all consenting adults. Why stop at couples and couplets? #NoJudgment #NoLabels #DEI? Lose your Pro-Choice [ethical] religion.
"No Kings" is okay. "No Queens" would be problematic.
You can't persuade if you don't even understand your own ideology. "Progressives" have no sense of history, they don't know where their own ideas come from. Of course they can't persuade anyone.
Kudos to the “No Kings” demonstrators. I’ve been searching for two days and can’t find a single American king.
“There was a sense of cultural momentum that was this unending, cresting wave. There is this sense of a cultural victory that lulled us into a false sense of security and in many ways shut down needed conversations....”
Sexually mutilating children while permanently sterilizing them was the wrong hill to die on for the LGBxyz Community. Thinking of the “cresting” led me to think that they had tried to take A Bridge Too Far (Montgomery’s Operation Market Garden).
One thing that is now inevitable is that marriage between a man and a woman will be heavily incentivized and so will child raising.
Society is going to reform around the nuclear family as the core building block of society. There is too much data showing how important it is and the town square is now open to all to share that information.
------------
Nope.
When the black men start showing up with their hands out asking for taxpayer support for their black children and help growing their black families, you'll see it...
You can't make a legal program offering young whites tax dollars to reproduce. Even the white grandparents haven't been successful in bribing the kids of late. Nobody wants their kids being raised as cannon fodder for Israel, or to shore up your Ponzi schemes. Do in your own life the goals you have shifted to your children. Learn to play guitar instead of bearing a baby named after john lennon who will follow in your law footsteps and deny his artistic dreams to make money. You're just reproducing your own life mistakes and foisting them on to innocent others. "MOMMY, I made a list of old rock songs I think you'd like, mommy." Sad, but for some sons of "single" women, mommy was kind of the only role model they had... "Can you drive us to the rock concert, mommy? We want to meet some chicks!" lolol.
"...they don't know where their own ideas come from."
More transpersyns do than you'd think, it's just that when so many of your ideas originate from Dr. John Money, you'd probably prefer people DIDN'T know where they came from.
Bruce... whatever happened to that daughter/son/they them of yours? Did you pay her to get knocked up and give you a grand already?? lol.
It’s not my job to educate you.
The act of persuasion requires listening to the arguments being made. The act of education requires two-way conversation.
This is what the Left has abandoned. "It's not my job to educate you," means the speaker does not wish to have their arguments challenged. It is the speaker who does not wish to engage and risk being further "educated".
"It's not our job to educate you, that's why we all took the few marbles we had left to BlueSky where we throw shade at you endlessly and anyone else whose job it is not ours to educate."
Thank you ELON MUSK. It all started with him and X. And if you want some really good advice entertainment, follow jk Rowling for a while. Her recent evisceration of Boy George should be outlawed for beating a helpless puppy.
“No Kings" is okay. "No Queens" would be problematic.
My partner’s name means “Queen-like”. She was well named. Then I discovered that “Bruce” was the royal Scottish surname. So, when she calls me on the phone, I sometimes respond as The Bruce, asking his queen what boon she was beseeching me for. It doesn’t always go well for me, though I don’t understand why she expects me to call her Queen-like, and I can’t be HRM, The Bruce.
“Postmarriage world?” Good God! At least McBride and his cohorts are having difficulty persuading normies that men are women, etc. Democrats, apparently, remain susceptible. Anybody who believes national reconciliation is possible has not been paying attention to the lunacy of Democrats and the behavior of their leaders. “No kings?” Really?
"It’s not my job to educate you."
I aways liked "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you." (Popular physics coffee mug)
"🎼🎶 Surf's Up mmm, mmm, all aboard the tidal wave...🎶" Brian Wilson
As a high school Social Studies teacher I would always tell the students that I could lead them to water, I could explain why water was important, that it was healthy, and life giving. I could do all of that and more. The one thing I could not do was make them drink the water.
"It's not my job..."
It just gets tiresome to refute leftist lies that they continue to screech ("fine people", FEMA did a great job in NC, Trump is a rapist, racist, king...). Even if I provide cites to my liberal acquaintances, they either ignore or don't believe them because they have been indoctrinated by the Legacy Media.
No Kings. No Queens. No Judges, too. Super Democratics!
There was a sense of cultural momentum that was this unending, cresting wave.
What McBride is trying to dance around is that the neverending culture wars were fun. Althouse herself alluded to this some time ago when she wrote about writing a letter to her parents describing her participation in a campus demonstration as an important part of the overall college education experience.
But the neverending culture wars always had to end, because sooner or later (as in right the eff now) they were going to go too far. And biological female prisoners forced to share a jail cell with biological male rape-murderers is too far. Biological women forced to change clothes in front of naked biological males is too far. Conning and coercing young tomboys into puberty blockers and getting their breasts removed is too far.
Trans-Siberians are real Siberians.
Transactions are reactions too.
As a 19 year old in college student '61's San Francisco, I worked under a gay mgr. & the firms owner was also gay. They'd both be appalled at what the LBG community has become.
"We lost the art of change-making over the last couple of years." Still delusional. They have temporarily lost the ability to bully people or socially shame them. I worked in mental health since the 70s, which were and are heavily gay and lesbian environments. Persuasion was rare, bullying common.
To be fair, bullying from the other side was common early on as well.
The one thing I could not do was make them drink the water.
As the old saying goes:
You can lead a horticulture,
But you Can't make her think
"... that allowed for marriage equality to be built on solid ground ...".
The "solid ground" of one corrupt judge in California throwing out the results of a popular referendum. While people who supported the referendum were hounded from their jobs. We can thank the homos for pioneering judicial tyranny and cancel culture. We owe them so much!
Pride goeth before destruction
This is akin to the standard response if someone questioned the basic premises of critical race theory such as asking for proof of systemic racism: "It's not my job to educate you. You have to do the work yourself. I'm exhausted."
- Krumhorn
I see Ezra, fresh off his month of playing expert on how Democrats can win over more male voters and more voters in general, is onto a topic that will have the nation riveted.
"To educate" sounds too elitist, too high and mighty, trop de haut en bas, too hectoring and lecturing. Say "persuade" instead. If you're a politician or an activist, your job -- should you choose to accept it -- is to persuade people.
WTF is wrong with Delaware? Can we just trade it for Greenland or Labrador?
Great gaffe by McBride (I don't know how to do boldface
"There was a very clear, well-coordinated, well-funded effort to demonize trans people, to stake out positions on *fertile* ground for anti-trans politics ..."
That's it exactly!
this conversation reminds me of (R)Senator Kennedy who has "persuasive" discussions during hearings. Is he charming in his soft southern drawl? YES. Does he make valid points that are logically hard to contradict? YES. But who is watching/listening that is persuadable away from their side? practically nobody.
. That is why the Ts are losing ground.
----------
Clearly somebody hasn't looked at the numbers lately...lol.
You can bitch and whine and moan, but trans people are more and more in public everyday. Maybe you see them, maybe you don't but oh... nobody is losing ground in the real world. lol
MikeD said...
As a 19 year old in college student '61's San Francisco, I worked under a gay mgr. & the firms owner was also gay
--------
Entry-level t-bagger for when the clubs/bathhouses were closed?
The delusion that "trans" are just ordinary people with a different way of looking at things is frankly insane.
Yet many, many people (apparently) buy it, and expect the rest of us to support the delusion.
No sale.
Heartless Aztec said...
As a high school Social Studies teacher I would always tell the students that I could lead them to water, I could explain why water was important, that it was healthy, and life giving. I could do all of that and more. The one thing I could not do was make them drink the water.
--------
Covid changed all that.
Turns out you can mandate the kids drink the water! Who knew??
Before gracefully persuading everyone else to accept mentally ill people who don't even accept themselves, they should start with persuading the trans women to wash their hair more often. Greasy hair is an indicator of poor hygiene, it's an unlikable trait. If you are a man with repulsive hygiene habits who turns into a woman, remember, greasy hair is grim.
There's an awful lot of money and political power to be lost if the LGBTQ movement is forced to declare victory. The trans activists are mucking up the reliable pipelines with their excesses.
Some of these people might even have to get real jobs.
“It’s not my job to educate you”
“You might not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you”
“(Fill in the blank) has always been political”
Recent examples: knitting, food,
These are lazy sayings that drive me crazy
It’s not my job to educate you."
"I always thought about that line because on one level, I understood it. It’s probably not your job to educate anyone.
It's not my job to give a shit about your issues. If you want me to care, if you want me to side with you, it damn well is your job to convince me.
But if you’re in politics, if what you’re trying to do is political change, I always found that line to be almost antipolitical.
Try: brainlessly stupid and hopelessly arrogant.
That if what you want to do is change a law, change a society, change a heart, and you’re the one who wants to do it — well then, whose job is it? And who are you expecting to do it?"
They were expecting we would be forced by "social media" and the Biden Admin to bow to them.
At least in large part because they know their positions are such total shit that they can't actually make a case for them
"It's not my job to educate you. You have to do the work yourself. I'm exhausted."
"Fair enough. On second thought, I don't really need an explanation from you. Your ideas are crap and you're full of shit. Glad we got that cleared up!"
I always liked "I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain that to you."
I always liked "I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain that to you."
I prefer the "I have neither the crayons nor fingerpuppets to explain that to you".
Or: "I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you"
Post Obamacare 2010 sexual identity politics has involved (1) predatory insurance firms and doctors exploiting the mentally ill for huge profits (i.e., Dr. Shayne Seybold-Taylor), and (2) weak, uncompetitive beta males and incels finding a superficial competitive advantage. The entry to bio males into female sports is literally the opposite of "sportsmanship" -- fair competition among peers.
Contemporary woke LBGTQ2^400+++++++++++++++++++ is always (1) passive aggression, (2) mental illness, or (3) the sarcastic exploitation of an insane system by Beavis and Butthead.
I think what everybody realizes is that the phrase has nothing to do with transmitting information or changing opinion but that the speaker simply does not (or can not) provide reasons for their opinion. To paraphrase another bumper sticker, you can't reason another person into a position that you weren't reasoned into.
Post a Comment
Please use the comments forum to respond to the post. Don't fight with each other. Be substantive... or interesting... or funny. Comments should go up immediately... unless you're commenting on a post older than 2 days. Then you have to wait for us to moderate you through. It's also possible to get shunted into spam by the machine. We try to keep an eye on that and release the miscaught good stuff. We do delete some comments, but not for viewpoint... for bad faith.