You've heard of Florida man. This is Florida priest.
The Catholic Diocese of Orlando defended the priest in a statement posted online. “The woman forcefully placed her hand in the vessel and grabbed some sacred Communion hosts, crushing them,” part of the statement said. “Having only one hand free, Father Rodriguez struggled to restrain the woman as she refused to let go of the hosts.... When the woman pushed him and reacting to a perceived act of aggression, Father Rodriguez bit her hand so she would let go of the hosts she grabbed. The woman was immediately asked to leave.... Further, while the Diocese of Orlando does not condone physical altercations such as this, in good faith, Father Rodriguez was simply attempting to prevent an act of desecration of the Holy Communion, which, as a priest, Father Rodriguez is bound by duty to protect.”
Should the priest be charged with a crime? Should the woman?
There's an additional angle: "A witness claimed to police the woman was rejected because of her sexuality and what she had on."
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87 comments:
make woman priest and let her handle host duty
What would happen if this was tried at a mosque? Catholics need to start acting like Muslims. Muslims are respected because they don’t tolerate this. If someone tries this with them, they are made to pay a price.
Drop the hammer on the lady. Priest gets a reward. Charles Bronson in priest ranks would be a good thing.
"A witness claimed to police the woman was rejected because of her sexuality and what she had on."
Or maybe, just maybe, she's a nut.
Burn her at the stake.
An assault on the body of Christ in his own house. What level of force is appropriate?
The woman should be charged by the police, the priest should be admonished by the church.
It was a setup, and the witness is in on the plan. Dare the church to refuse you, then sue them.
Seems like we are in “the last days” these days when Jesus warned his guys … You will be hated by all men.
That’s here now. Standing our ground is the job. You know like that Bad Orange Man who is being hated by all men does.
"A witness claimed to police the woman was rejected because of her sexuality and what she had on."
Or maybe, just maybe, she's a nut.
I was raised Catholic but have been Episcopalian for most of my adult life, so please correct me if I'm wrong: I don't take communion when I go to Catholic Mass with my sister, for instance, because I'm not part of the Catholic communion any more. It would be a sin for me to do so knowingly, and a desecration of the Host. (I'm pretty much Anglo-Catholic - I still pretty much hew to the Transubstantiation.) Right or wrong, those are the rules as I understand them.
So I'm gathering from the post that this woman presented herself to receive the Eucharist and the priest denied it (that's implied by the added bit about her being denied because of how she looked), and so she tried to take it herself. Did the priest know whether she was Catholic?
Of course, once she reached onto the paten or whatever vessel they were using and grabbed a handful of the consecrated Host, the priest could make a strong inference that she was up to no good with it. And it would be his duty, if it comes right down to it, to die in the defense of the transformed Body of Christ.
But what made him deny her in the first place? Basically, what was his role, if any, in setting the conditions in which she tried to grab the Host?
I mean, I suspect she's just a nut. And whatever the priest did or said to deny her communion, she had no right to do what she did and I think he did have a duty (though perhaps not a legal right - he certainly wouldn't be the first person imprisoned for contravening the law in doing what he believed was his moral duty) to do what he did. But simply as a priest, I hope he's pondering whether he did play a role.
Treat it like a fight at the Church Softball league.
Back 20 years ago there was a trial when a guy burned a rainbow flag .at a rally/protest He was charged and found guilty. Burning the US flag is protected, but the wily Judge determined he took the flag from a protestor and then burned it. So the Crime was theft, not burning. Protecting your property with violence has to be within the power of the Priest.
The priest was defending himself, so no charges there. The woman was there to desecrate the host. That's clear when she called it "a cookie". It's not clear that she committed a crime, but she might be mentally unstable. Figure out what's up with her before she does something more dangerous.
Denying anyone communion is bullshit. It's the antithesis of the sacrament. The Catholic and Lutheran Churches insist on controlling its distribution. The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans more than anyone. They think they're the only one's going to heaven.
But that's how this started. He denied her communion at the 10am mass. She came back at noon. He said if she had not confessed after the first mass, he could not give her communion. She tried grabbing the body of Christ from his hand, and he bit the body of the woman.
Jesus would have given her the wafer.
First, was the "lady" a biological male activist mentally shorting out on chemical castration, church hatred, and some imagined offense? Did she get her fictional church news from Justin in Canada?
Second, was the "lady" a biological female taking testosterone and experiencing the now notorious side effects that come from mixing bio-female emotions with 'roid rage? Fake compassion + long manifestos + weapons = homicidal insanity.
Even bio men with flat emotions have documented issues with steroids. Steroids were largely banned in the 1980s (after Arnold's "Pumping Iron" film)...but then Obamacare came along in 2010 and saved mentally ill people from neglect and evil Republican policies (especially the ultra-right and horrid G.W. Bush).
He he.
Gusty, are you Catholic? I'm inferring no, that you're Lutheran - I didn't know any Lutheran sect had rules for who can receive the Eucharist besides maybe Christian baptism (which is the general Episcopal rule).
I ask because according to Catholic doctrine, it wasn't a "wafer" any longer, any more than it was a "cookie." Certainly I think Jesus would (and according to Christian dogma generally, did) give His body for this person. But the priest is ordained within a particular religious tradition with very specific rules and requirements, which - however poorly they're sometimes observed, and you can probably guess what I'm talking about there - he has a moral duty to uphold.
Should the priest be charged with a crime? Should the woman?
Of course the woman should be charged. The charge is blasphemy and the penalty is — as Gusty Winds points out at 7:09 — burning at the stake.
Okay, getting real here. IMAO there are likely to be many, many more details that will come out later and clarify what happened and why. I’m inclined to withhold judgement until more is known.
Gusty Winds said...Denying anyone communion is bullshit.
Communion is not a right.
Jesus would have given her the wafer.
Not without repentance, he wouldn't.
1. To Catholics it not just a “wafer”, it is the Body of Jesus. The Liturgy of the Eucharist is not a reenactment of the Last Supper.
2. The lady obviously was not Catholic, let alone a Catholic in good standing. She is not eligible to receive the Eucharist.
You dont grab the wafer like a nacho chip you are handed it that said the biting was a little extreme
Reading the article in The Pillar, it is clear that the priest refused giving her "the cookie" she wanted because she was clearly not prepared. This is his job, keeping people from damaging themselves spiritually. She returned at a second Mass after having been properly refused the first time and assaulted him and Jesus. Bravo to the priest for doing what he could do. I expect this will be a "hate crime" in the corporate press since she is intersectionally entitled to do whatever she wants without consequences.
During the meal Jesus blessed the bread, broke it and ,and said, take, eat, all of you...except those that haven't been to confession with a priest in the last year, or haven't memorized Luther's Small Catechism.
Such bullshit.
Blogger AMDG said...
2. The lady obviously was not Catholic, let alone a Catholic in good standing. She is not eligible to receive the Eucharist.
Hmmm...Priests have played with young boys and remained in good standing. Quite welcome to receive the eucharist. The Jesuits can be pro-abortion up until the moment of birth and they remain in "good standing".
But God forbid the unclean enter the Temple... wait...Jesus insisted the unclean be allowed in his Father's temple...
The allure and beauty of religion is it gives license to the faithful to think that they speak for God and then use that authority to justify their messed up ill treatment of other people and their transgressions.
Jesus took the wafer and passed it around hd he didnt throw in a bowl
iowan2 said...
Treat it like a fight at the Church Softball league.
Apropos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgI2Uv4pFbk
"A witness claimed to police the woman was rejected because of her sexuality and what she had on."
Was she a woman, or a 'woman?' The article doesn't state, but at the very least it's clear that the malefactors wasn't familiar with Catholic doctrine ("the cookie?") or her responsibilities in that house of worship. Looks like it was political theater; crushing the host was an act of desecration.
I'm not Catholic, but I do try to keep up with other faith communities and their major points of doctrine. This is a major one.
Trans women are women. Hot dogs are dogs.
'malefactor,' not the plural. I blame autoincorrect.
Blogger tim maguire said...
Gusty Winds said...Denying anyone communion is bullshit.
Communion is not a right.
Jesus would have given her the wafer.
Not without repentance, he wouldn't.
At the Last Supper, even Judas received the body and blood of Christ. And Jesus knew he would betray him. He also knew Peter would deny him later that same night.
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
Are we for the restriction of Holy Baptism as well?
Perhaps this woman hadn't "earned" the privilege yet. Maybe she was a novice. A sinner. Or someone that resisted the Church her whole life. And when she shows up to give it a shot, she is turned away and then bitten.
The Pharisees and the Sadducees turned a lot of people away from the Temple, so they could control the Temple. Jesus called bullshit on their restrictions...so they killed him.
As an atheist, I say good for the padre.
The creature had a lot of nerve, but perhaps has learned a lesson about respecting other people's faith.
The last time I was invited to take communion was about 1982 or so, when I was a groomsman for a school chum who was getting his div degree at Duke, and was marrying another div student in a big old-fashioned Methodist church wedding. (They both have had long careers in the Methodist and/or UCC branches.)
When my wife and I sat it out, my friend's mother speculated that it was because we were Catholic, which we were and are not. My wife was raised RC and we were hitched by their parish priest in the rectory--largely to please the old folks-- but neither of us has more faith than an old dog.
It has helped keep us together, I think.
Don't Bogart that wafer my friend, pass it over to me...
he Pope intervened for Joe Biden when U.S. Bishops wanted to deny him the Eucharist.
Joe will be thrilled to learn that at the Church of Gusty Winds, he can have as many cookies as he wants.
Dropping hosts that have been blessed is a huge issue. It is why he couldn't leave them go.
Communion is a sacrament. The first sacrament is baptism, the second reconcilliation (confession to non-catholics), then communion. The others are marriage, taking orders and last rites.
If you don't have baptism and reconcilliation, you cannot have communion. If you have not repented your sins in reconcilliation or are flaunting your sins, the priest can deny you communion. This is church teaching.
This person sounds like an activist or someone unstable or perhaps both. The priest was just following the rules, the woman was not.
Blogger Jamie said...
Gusty, are you Catholic? I'm inferring no, that you're Lutheran - I didn't know any Lutheran sect had rules for who can receive the Eucharist besides maybe Christian baptism (which is the general Episcopal rule).
I'm was baptized Catholic, confirmed and first communion Lutheran, married Catholic, and when I returned to Sussex, WI in 2014 I went through the ten months of Adult Catholic Confirmation so I could rejoin the St. James where my grandparents are buried. It was a great experience.
Haven't stepped foot in a Catholic Church since they capitulated to the gov't during COVID restrictions. The liberal bishops bowed to Cesar.
ANYONE Christian is allowed to baptize, or distribute communion. Restriction is the antitheses of both... especially if you are supposed to baptize all nations, and spread the good news.
These Church "leaders" create more atheists than Christians.
Blogger Lilly, a dog said...
The Pope intervened for Joe Biden when U.S. Bishops wanted to deny him the Eucharist.
Joe will be thrilled to learn that at the Church of Gusty Winds
I won't vote for Joe Biden and I think he's a crook, but I would be happy to receive communion with him. Or even give it to him if he showed up at my house looking for it. If someone is walking toward Christ, why turn them away?
Jesus came to break and reset all the rules. Since then Christians have wasted time arguing on the fringes of dogma and doctrine.
Was the “woman” even an actual woman at all? It speaks to the decay of our society that it’s even necessary to ask.
Gusty Winds' little tirade at 8:29 seems to omit anything the woman did wrong. Imagine.
I'm with Narr. Though atheist, I've attended friends' church services on occasion, even RC. On not one occasion have I observed anyone grabbing a handful of host. Not one even made a move to, passively allowing the wafer to be placed on their tongue.
She knew what she was doing and I'll give you an analogy from me I've referenced here before.
When I ran my group, we visited children's hospitals to entertain at Christmas. I was Kringle and the others, Mother Goose characters.
I would obtain quantities of cheap little toys to pass out. At everywhere but North Kansas City Children's Diabetes Clinic all the children behaved very well. Not those spoiled little brats.
One incident of several: I handed a boy a small toy car. He looked at it and "I don't want this." Literally dropped it on the floor then tried to do a dive into Santa's bag. I snared his wrist on the way down and told him no one reaches in besides Santa. The parents were no better, denying my people even a drink after the play because they were sugar free and "for the children". The following year they contacted me to have my troop perform the show for the parents only. I, of course, refused.
It's no wonder where this crap comes from.
When asked for a response what it was like to bite a human being, the priest said "she tasted just like chicken"
I'm actually kinda surprised reports like this aren't more common. I suspect priests are trained to avoid confrontations as people approach to receive communion.
Mark my words, they'll have to defrock this priest before it's over.
Once they get a taste of woman...
So Gusty Winds is a catholic like Joe Biden, one who denies one of the most basic tenets of catholic orthodoxy. Josh Braid sums it up nicely. Taking the eucharist "unworthily" is a sin and in the RC the priests can refuse to let you commit that sin. You are free to disagree with the the RC understanding of the sacrament, but you are not free to go into a catholic church and override the priest. If I had to guess (and I do) this will turn out to be some kind of alphabet person's protest, a deliberate set-up to generate what is hoped to be bad publicity for the church.
As a member of Gen-X, I am surprised no one has mentioned the retort “bite me” yet.
Blogger Oligonicella said...
Gusty Winds' little tirade at 8:29 seems to omit anything the woman did wrong. Imagine...Though atheist, I've attended friends' church services on occasion
I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV. We have an Atheist sympathizing with a biting Priest. Great morning at the Althouse blog.
Tirade? What the woman did "wrong"? Most people start looking for Christ because they need relief from the wrongs/sins in their lives.
The entire of basis of Christianity is built on people who do wrong (sinners). If Christ resented anything it was the hypocritical "holier than thou" Pharisees and Sadducees. He wasn't a big fan of throwing stones either.
To be bitten by a Priest "protecting" the eucharist is asinine. Ridiculous. The fact that he chose to bite her...rather than just serve her communion is a sin itself.
What did Jesus do when Peter cut the ear off the Roman soldier when he was arrested? Jesus healed the soldier's ear. He would have healed he teeth marks if Peter had chosen to bite the soldier.
I'm imagining someone trying this in my Eastern Orthodox parish full of Arabs. She'd have been carried bodily from the church by some burly ushers.
Why would you ever think you could grab and "take" a sacrament in any church/synagogue/mosque? I grew up Protestant, and many of the people in our church didn't even think Catholics were Christians (our "communion" was once a year and involved grape juice). Nevertheless they would never, ever do something like this - because they were respectful and decent people.
I have heard of priests worried about the host being taken after consecration to be used in non-Christian rituals (witchcraft, essentially). As I understand it the priest has an obligation to make sure the host is consumed immediately by all communicants to avoid that. I would guess this fear was part of this priest's reaction to someone who tried to take what could have been an entire handful of host.
FAFO Catholic Priest version?
There’s no decency in the world anymore. Why would anyone do this? It’s just a giant Fuck You right in the faces of the priest and all the parishioners.
This should be a hate crime (if I believed in such things).
Gusty, thanks for the background! What I was trying to find out was whether you understood what the Eucharist means in Catholicism - you do.
ANYONE Christian is allowed to baptize, or distribute communion.
Very true.
Restriction is the antitheses of both... especially if you are supposed to baptize all nations, and spread the good news.
I don't think it follows that "restriction is the antithesis of both." It's also the case in Catholicism that, although we're all redeemed through Christ anyway, only through the sacrament of reconciliation - which is mediated by a priest, not by just anybody you decide to confess your sins to - can you return to proper relationship with God (however temporarily).
(My church, the Episcopal church, offers private confession, but teaches that the communal act of contrition during the mass results in the same forgiveness of personal sins.)
It's a rules thing. In Catholicism, any Catholic can distribute the consecrated Eucharist, but not just any Catholic can consecrate it. And those who can, have specific duties related to that responsibility.
If you sincerely believe BOTH that the consecrated Eucharist is the Body of Christ AND that the mission of the Church is to "baptize all nations and spread the good news," you have a moral dilemma on your hands when someone abuses the Host, don't you?
These Church "leaders" create more atheists than Christians.
I can't argue with that! But ordinary people don't generally take the time necessary to do exegesis and apologetics.
Blogger who-knew said...
So Gusty Winds is a catholic like Joe Biden, one who denies one of the most basic tenets of catholic orthodoxy. Josh Braid sums it up nicely. Taking the eucharist "unworthily" is a sin and in the RC the priests can refuse to let you commit that sin.
According to Catholic doctrine people who are divorced aren't supposed to take communion. You cool with that doctrine? That's half of all people who have ever been married in America. No wonder their attendance numbers are shrinking.
The Catholic Church also says/said masturbation and birth control are sin. Should a woman be denied communion if she is on the pill having pre-marital sex?? That's ridiculous.
Eating a hot dog on a Friday is a sin. My mom said when she was a girl in 1956, the nuns would tell the kids watching Elvis Presley was a "mortal" sin...the type that sent you to hell.
Anyone is allowed to refuse any service to anyone. Gay wedding cakes for example. So fine.
This Priest is in the wrong. His job is to bring people to Christ. Not push them away and bite them.
Gusty Winds:
1 Corinthians 11:27. ‘Nuff said.
One last thing to Gusty - I think it's clear, but in case it's not I want to make it clear, that I'm making a rules argument and I think you're making a faith argument.
I don't necessarily disagree with you about who ought to be able to receive the Eucharist - I'm just saying that within that particular milieu, the priest correctly perceived a serious infraction of the rules - the religious laws - to which he has pledged himself and which he believes to be properly deferential to the Person of Christ. I don't think it's obvious that he's got his moral obligations wrong, on that basis.
If he had said to this person that he wouldn't give her the Eucharist under any circumstances because of who or what she is, then he would have been violating the laws to which he's pledged, as well as your preferred interpretation of the universality of access to the Eucharist. But Catholics don't believe that the Eucharist is or should be universally accessible to the baptized; that's one reason I switched horses, though I respect the Catholic Church's authority over its own.
From news reports it appears the woman attended her neice's Sunday 1st Holy Communion. When she went up to receive she did not seem to know how to take in either her hand or mouth, so priest questioned her on when last been to communion, then when last confessed (the big mistake, in my view), then turned her away. She returned for a later Sunday mass and tried again. He again interracted with her, but then tried to place the host in her mouth. She recoiled and went to help herself from the chalice (I forget the technical term) and that's when all hell loose.
Gusty Winds asks me "According to Catholic doctrine people who are divorced aren't supposed to take communion. You cool with that doctrine?" As a matter of fact, yes. I'm not a catholic or divorced so it doesn't affect me one way or another. But I do believe that the RC church can set and enforce it own rules without any reference to what I think. That answer also applies to the rest of the questions. It seems that Gusty Winds disagrees with a lot of RC orthodoxy (as I understand it) but it also seems to me that that is an argument for him to join a different church that is more in line with his understanding of these matters. I once toyed with the idea of becoming a catholic but there were a couple of tenets of the church that I just couldn't sign on to. I didn't join up and then argue that the RC I just entered was wrong. I decided that they were wrong and didn't join.
Blogger AlbertAnonymous said...
1 Corinthians 27:"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28: Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup."
So this unworthiness St. Paul is talking about is defined by the rules of each separate Christian denomination? If I take communion at a Presbyterian Church (they give it out to anyone who shows up) I'm worthy, but at a restrictive Mass, or Lutheran service I'm unworthy?
So I have to go through AA's 4th step to satisfy verse 28?
Matthew Chapter 23 is Jesus' warning against hypocrisy and then the seven woes on teachers of the law (Starting Verse 13)
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
Sounds to me like Jesus preferred an open door policy. This Priest should have given this woman communion on the first attempt. Biting her was beyond the pale.
If there were an altar boy/girl/adult they could've acted instead of the priest.
A lot to ask, but either way, God forgives assholes. I know.
That church needs to hire a bouncer.
This creature deliberately chose to cause a scene by desecrating a religious sacrament. It chose to do this in a Christian, specifically Catholic church. The priest protected the representation of Christ from the desecration by this creature. That is not hard to understand, nor is his behavior. The same vermin as usual are upset, imagine that. Tough shit. You deliberately plan to destroy something of great value, something of great religious value and were met with resistance. You got what you deserved, at the very least. Should one be of the ilk to defend these behaviors, you should receive the same kind response as this creature did. Further these assholes never have the courage to display the same behavior in a mosque. It is time for Christians to refuse the other cheek and defend against these scum and their ilk. This violence would end.
Don’t feed the hand that bites you.
Readering, thank you for posting additional context around the incident.
Clearly a lot of the commenters here don't understand Catholic teaching on receiving Jesus in the Eucharist. The priest did what he should do in not giving Jesus to this woman as she was very clearly not prepared; he did his job. You may not agree with his job or him doing it--that's fine. Just realize he did what he has sworn to do.
As to the perjorative accusations of denial of the Eucharist to people beaause they are sinners--really? Please get educated about Catholic teachings on receiving Jesus during Communion--there are lots of good sources out there, even the USCCB site. Again, you don't have to like what the Catholic Church teaches, it does behoove you to find out instead of misrepresenting what is taught.
A dealing shoe or dealer's shoe is a gaming device, mainly used in casinos, to hold multiple decks of playing cards. The shoe allows for more games to be played by reducing the time between shuffles and less chance of dealer cheating
==============
I suggest a Jesus Shoe or Priest Shoe or Host Shoe
The priest deserves a medal and I'm not Catholic. He was defending something sacred with all he had. Bravo.
Blogger EdwdLny said...
This creature deliberately chose to cause a scene by desecrating a religious sacrament. It chose to do this in a Christian, specifically Catholic church. The priest protected the representation of Christ from the desecration by this creature.
5/24/24, 11:03 AM
—————
It is not a representation, it is the body of Christ.
Catholics are taught that we are to receive the Eucharist, (the true body of Christ) reverently. At a minimum, if received in the hand, to form a "throne" with your two hands, and wait for the priest or lay minister to place the host in your hands. Someone who won't do that, even a baptized Catholic, perhaps isn't properly disposed to receive the Sacrament. Yes, this (not grabbing it yourself), is a small act of humility. If that's too humiliating for you, you might be in the wrong religion.
Priests and lay eucharistic ministers ordinarily give someone the benefit of the doubt, and not try to determine what is in someone's heart. But attempting to help herself to the sacrament like this woman apparently did is a red flag that she is either non-catholic or is nominally catholic but not properly disposed. (I learned this while in training to be a lay eucharistic minister. We were taught to offer a blessing instead.) The fact that this woman apparently later referred to the sacrament as a "cookie" IMO also indicates after the fact that this woman wasn't properly disposed.
If you were invited to a reception at the WH with your favorite president, would you walk over and cut yourself a piece of the decorated cake ("I really want a piece, now!") or would you wait to be served by appropriate staff? My belief is that the true body of Christ deserves at least a much respect.
When you go to the Bar Mitzvah of the son of an orthodox Jewish friend, do you (male) refuse to wear a Kippah inside the synagogue? Do you go up to the front and handle all the scrolls and other objects that the rabbi does? Do you bring your ham sandwich into a mosque and eat it around those there for worship? Do you as a woman insist on joining the men in the mosque for prayers, instead of staying with the women? Because all those rules seem stupid to you. Or, do you show respect for religions you don't agree with, at least when you are in their house?
Gusty Winds:
Two things. Truly intending to be delivered with respect and love.
First, “no”, the St. Paul unworthiness is NOT determined by each “denomination”. It’s determined by the Catholic Church, the one instituted by JC himself, through the apostolic succession, and the church that still teaches the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. All the other “denominations” have split off for one disagreement or another, and most (i think all) see the Eucharist as some sort of symbol of Christ. You can receive a symbol anytime you want, in whatever state of worthiness or unworthiness.
Second, your comment: “According to Catholic doctrine people who are divorced aren't supposed to take communion. You cool with that doctrine?" Misunderstands the teaching (or maybe you misstated it). Divorce does not prevent a Catholic from receiving communion. It’s those who divorce and marry another (and therefore are committing adultery) who are not in the proper state of Grace to receive. Although even those, once they make a good valid confession and resolve to avoid such a sin (such as “living as brother and sister” as we say) can be absolved and then receive again.
Peace.
who-knew said...
It seems that Gusty Winds disagrees with a lot of RC orthodoxy (as I understand it) but it also seems to me that that is an argument for him to join a different church that is more in line with his understanding of these matters.
Both the Catholic and Protestant Churches base 95% of their faith on the Nicene Creed. I'm 100% in on the Nicene Creed. I'm just not in on bullshit, hypocritical restrictions on sacraments instituted by Christ. (Communion and Baptism). I agree with much of Catholicism. One universal church which includes those in Heaven and on Earth extending from the cross. I agree with the divinity of Mary. Life after death etc..
The problem is the Catholic Church claims to be the ONE church and St. Peter as it's first Pope after Jesus handed him the keys. "Upon this rock I will build my church"... If they are going to claim to be the one Church started by Jesus Christ himself...then their doctrines are open to debate.
The Liberal Jesuits are pro-abortion...they're not joining another church. The Priesthood has attracted a lot of homosexuals...they're not joining another church. Marquette still claims to be a Catholic University, who are they kidding???
You're seriously telling me I should not be a Catholic because I think this Priest shouldn't have bit this woman and just shared the eucharist with her???
“I won't vote for Joe Biden and I think he's a crook, but I would be happy to receive communion with him.”
Heh… another old man getting fucked
The Catholic Church reveres Mary (as do I) but does NOT see her as divine. She was fully human, though immaculately conceived without sin and remained that way. It is the purest form of humanity. As we were intended to be when created.
This story has maximum bloggability. Enough details to create a framework for comment, and enough ambiguity to allow everyone's Rorschach machine to impose a meaning consistent with their worldview.
My Rorschach tells me that I need instant replay. I'm leaning towards the view that the lady deserved what she got.
Gusty,
Again, respectfully, I think you should come back into the fold of the Catholic Church. The angst you are describing is related to humans within the church, including some priests (who are still human), failing to follow the teachings. Grievous failures many, to be sure, but not the failings of the church and its doctrines. Instead, it’s the humans failing to live up to the doctrines.
I hope you come home.
Gusty Winds: Far be it from me to tell you you aren't or shouldn't be a catholic and that wasn't my intent. Neither was I saying that the priest should have bitten anyone. I am saying since RC doctrine says she shouldn't have been given the eucharist, the priest wasn't wrong to deny it to her. I guess if you see the rules of the RC around the eucharist to be so minor that they won't keep you out of the church, I can understand that. On the other hand, if you consider this a major flaw in RC theology (and you are certainly left me with that impression), then maybe a church that operates without that flaw is more up your alley. Only you can make that call and I can respect you either way.
Too all here. I appreciate the graciousness.
The Catholic Church pisses me off (yes related to humans, you are correct) is because I do love it and there are so many great things it has done, and can still do. I like the pageantry. The holy water you can touch and feel. The incense you can smell. They have a way of connecting heaven and earth and making it real.
Some of the Saints are fascinating and inspiring. Latest being John Paul II. Hoping Bishop Fulton Sheen becomes St. Sheen. You can catch his 1950's television show on YouTube. A great inspirational speaker, and he was actually quite funny.
God Bless everyone, and especially all the soldiers in heaven this Memorial Day weekend.
The word we're looking for to describe Gusty's position is "antinomian". Gusty is probably also a universalist. Neither of those beliefs is Roman Catholic doctrine.
Gusty may be a Catholic but not in good standing. Probably should head for the sacrament of reconciliation this weekend and confess to being smarter than his king, the Pope. (That's the sin of pride.)
Gusty prefers the wide gate.
Wouldn’t the priest’s duty be to die defending the host without biting anybody?
From the comments here, it appears the new Butker Catholicism endorses biting,
mindnumbrobot said...
"A witness claimed to police the woman was rejected because of her sexuality and what she had on."
Or maybe, just maybe, she's a nut.
This is one of those embrace the power of "and" statements.
Gusty Winds said...
Jesus would have given her the wafer.
Since the first- and last- time Jesus did this at The Last Supper, explain exactly how that would work. And I suspect you're wrong.
I'm not Catholic. The priest did the right thing.
My answers to the questions posed.
Woman should be charged: Robbery (?) plus a possible hate crime (willful desecration), if one is on the books.
Priest: was his resistance non-deadly/not inflicting grievous bodily harm? Assuming that’s the case, he probably shouldn’t be charged.
One Fine Day said...
The word we're looking for to describe Gusty's position is "antinomian". Gusty is probably also a universalist. Neither of those beliefs is Roman Catholic doctrine...Probably should head for the sacrament of reconciliation this weekend and confess to being smarter than his king, the Pope. (That's the sin of pride.)
an·ti·no·mi·an - adj. "relating to the view that Christians are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law."
This is not my position at all. Also, Christ is King...not The Pope.
Although Protestants and Lutheran's believe "man is saved by faith alone" it is based on the idea that man is sinful and cannot find salvation through his own good works. He will fail, and drive himself nuts. That's why the sacrifice and resurrection were needed. It does not excuse obedience to moral law. The variation is what is moral.
If biting a parishioner or a visitor to protect the eucharist from being distributed to a heretic is obedience to the "moral law"...then I am guilty as charged. Ridiculous.
The Catholic Church adds "Plus good works", placing part of the burden for salvation on the individual. It also adds a nice level of control for the church. It was also a great way for the pre-Reformation Church to sell indulgences so you could by time out of purgatory. Kind of like today's carbon credit.
Also, I am smarter than Pope Francis, and it has nothing to do with the sin of pride. He is a secular globalist pushing the Global Warming lie on the masses. So soon after John Paul II brought freedom to so many. Francis also sounds like Ladka Gravis when he speaks.
Next time I see someone at mass that I know is not a Catholic in good standing, I'm going to hip check them before they get to the alter for the protection of moral doctrine. I'll save the Priest from having to bite them, and the body of Christ going down the throat of someone not worthy.
If I get arrested and make the news, I expect a full round of applause from the biting priest peanut gallery here at the Althouse blog.
I also expect a good amount of time off from my purgatory sentence. My drinking, smoking, and habitual masturbation are starting to add up.
Althouse asks: "Should the priest be charged with a crime? Should the woman?"
Advice from a non-practicing Daoist to those who would enter any house of worship with ill intent: FAFO.
As others have pointed out if someone came up during a service in a Mosque and dropped a piece of bacon in the middle of it the media would be talking about rising Islamophobia and the need for stronger Hate-Crime legislation. Despite that I don't think the woman should be charged in part because I am in against almost all Hate-crime laws and is one of the worst, most divisive things we've done in our society over the past thirty years or so.
If you don't have baptism and reconcilliation, you cannot have communion.
Haven't paid much attention to the church for some time, but we received communion in second grade and then confession in third. This was the early '70s.
Don't fuck with Catholics when it comes to communion.
I believe most people can sympathize with this priest and would fight tooth and nail if necessary to prevent inappropriate touching of one’s elderly parent or defensless baby.
It wasn't a cookie: It is the body of Christ. It is holy.
Maybe because I live in Asia, respect and reverence is still part of our culture. I wouldn't burn a Koran or desecrate Ganesh or throw red paint on Buddha, because people who revere these things are trying to show reverence to God.
Maybe because I live in Asia, I am aghast that your readers not only don't know much about the holiness of the Eucharist (it's not a symbol, it's the Body of Christ, literally, in Catholic and Orthodox belief).
I am also aghast that none of them seem to think desecrating something holy is okay, and that Jesus, who had infinite compassion to sinners, might not approve of an arrogant desecration of the holy by someone obviously not a practicing Catholic but only there to cause trouble.
https://open.spotify.com/track/14CsqOaDkOkrZ49UJLtuOJ?si=8w-Rp1ivSQa9qn2sdlOEBw&context=spotify%3Asearch%3Aso%2BLong%2C%2BMarianne
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