From "These Couples Survived a Lot. Then Came Retirement. For many relationships, life after work brings an unexpected set of challenges" (NYT)(free access link).
Can you imagine talking about your spouse like that to a NYT writer?! Joe ought to mansplain to Barbara about why she shouldn't talking-to-the-NYT-splaining about his mansplaining.
Now, I think there's a secret plan to brainwash the American population into believing that retirement is bad. You'll be bored! You'll be annoyed by seeing that your spouse is bored! You'll have to confront how boring you are — you, with no worthy interests — and how boring your spouse is — right there in front of you all the time. Better keep working, lest you find yourself permanently stuck in this horror show.
I love retirement. I love having all my time to myself. I think I use my time quite well, and I love having Meade around whether he does things with me or not. Like this morning, we had a lovely conversation about whether to go to a particular concert, and we made a breakthrough when we realized we both thought the same thing: I'll go to accompany you if you want to go.
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65 comments:
"Better to keep worrying". Should be "working." Last sentence, para 4.
Retirement. Some people love it. (I'm one.)
With a picture of unhappy wife standing behind hubby, who's frowning at his laptop. Today's sexist comment: Guess the sex of the journalist that wrote the article.
Maybe, though, it's because you haven't been with Meade for 40 years. Maybe that's the answer, all these unhappy retirees dissatisfied with long-time partners should dump the current one and find someone new. I'm kidding but I wonder what the stats are for divorce among married people 62 and older.
This is the baby boomer generation we're talking about so being self-centered and bitching about everything is par for the course. They (we) have never been very good at just sucking it up and making the best of things. I also think, though, that retirement can depend on how healthy and financially well-off you are.
Most Americans won't be retiring, they'll be struggling along financially until death, which will come all the sooner from the struggle.
Not for nothing, Ann, but you and Meade sound like my wife and I. We both love being retired. We fill our time together and apart. We both have our own interests and things we love to do together. And often...we just like hanging around with each other.
One wonders what some of these people had to begin with if retirement is baring the long hidden torture of their relationships.
Today we are both sick. We spent a week with our grandkids in a house up on the Florida panhandle. Had a ball, but we came away carrying the coughs the littles ones brought. But it was worth it to us. So...it's a warm day in Florida, we're out on our lanai. Clouds are starting to move in giving some relief (we need the rain). And we're out here together reading and talking.
Retirement is great with the right person.
One should not seek retirement, but rather to seek a financial position where you are the master of your own time and effort. It's been long conditioning. From the freedom of toddlerhood, at least for those born before 1990, to being broken to the classroom for schooling. Then to work in office or cube.
The last thing they want is people choosing what to spend their time and effort on without so much as a by your leave to a teacher, professor, boss or government functionary.
Learning to find your own work rather than that of another done for pay is a power. Retirement is "bad" because for the first time in 50-60 years, a person no longer has a "boss" to define their daily work.
"Can you imagine talking about your spouse like that to a NYT writer?"
Then I guess I better not share what Meade told me about you : )
My first thought: "How can you be married to someone for, what? Thirty years? And not know they don't enjoy traveling?
My second thought: "I wonder what my partner and I don't know about each other, that will surprise us in retirement?"
My third and final thought: "Actually I think Covid lockdown and both of us working from home for two years has given us a pretty good preview of each other, that wasn't really available to previous generations."
Thread music.
Those couples featured in the NYT should all get divorced.
Seriously, who complains about their spouse to the NYT? Puke!
"Can you imagine talking about your spouse like that to a NYT writer?!"
Yes, if I were a woman--or at least, I can imagine a NYT writer, writing for an audience of nice Upper West Side liberal ladies who have suffered under the patriarchy for decades, trying to elicit a woman's complaint, to reinforce the sisterhood if nothing else.
Joe ought to put that shrew in the rearview mirror.
Sounds like you and M have a great marriage.
I'm also enjoying retirement (soon to be 8 years), and I believe my wife is too. Still, I enjoy a joke. Somebody had one of those "click through many times" features, signs that went up in front of a restaurant during the pandemic lockdowns. One was something like: how are the married folks doing? I don't hear "I'm So Blessed" much any more.
That is a good moment in decision-making with a spouse, which we only discovered when the five sons had all left the next. "I'm happy to go with you. I don't need to go for myself." It put things strongly into the How much do YOU care about this? sector. If you care that much, I am in. Similarly, as the Head of the Household who has always mostly deferred to whatever my wife wanted, I have learned that sometimes the best thing I can say to my wife is "Do you want me to make a decision about this? I don't have a strong opinion, but I can develop one quickly."
Facetiously ordering her to do what she clearly already wants to do is also fun now.
Ben Shapiro doesn't want you to retire. He wants you keep on working and not taking any social security dollars. Its "crazy" that you want to retire at 66. Why are you such a lazy bones. Not only that, but you'll be bored and die early. Because, according to Shapiro, people are so bored without work they die 18 months later.
So why do the NYT's and Ben Shapiro want you to keep working? Because if you retire and take that SS check, either taxes will have to be raised, or we'll have less money for Globalist wars in the Middle east and to "fight" Russia and Ukraine.
So, you working stiffs, keep on that Hamster wheel and NEVER take that social scurity check waiting for you. Remember its POISON!
Not a surprise.
The two biggest reasons for divorce in the Navy, verified by 21 years of observation:
#1- Sea duty, with long separations, sometimes 6 months or more.
#2- Shore duty, when couples discover they really can't live together.
Survive both of those, and well, we're in year 46 of marriage. Retirement, when it happens (or is it if?) won't be a problem. I'm 68, 2 retirement incomes, SS, and a completely non-stressful high paying job. Why should I retire?
Ann:
You left out the hot sex on demand part.
Again, wherever you go, there you are.
All those words, and it boils down to:
1. If you can't get along with your spouse while you're working and raising kids, you won't get along with them afterwards.
2. Find something to look forward to, so you'll get out of bed in the morning.
Joe the unmotivated guitarist should have been advised to work toward putting out an album. That'll give him direction and motivation, to learn a song, record it, and tinker with software to add instruments and tweak it.
And Barbara never really discussed with Joe her problems with him hanging around her? And never considering setting up an office with a door?
Althouse said: "Now, I think there's a secret plan to brainwash the American population into believing that retirement is bad." That sounds right to me. If you don't quit working, you'll still be paying income, social security, and Medicare taxes to the government. I'm sure the DC functionaries like that idea. That said, I'm almost 70, still working part-time and I just told my boss I'd probably keep working for at least three more years. That assumes my health holds up, but I think having a job that involves some physical activity helps with the health.
I've been retired for 2 years now, and I also love it. There are so many things I wanted to do, some as simple as reading classic literature and growing a large vegetable garden. But I never seemed to have the time to do it when working. Being a trial lawyer meant many long days at the office, often going into the evening or sometimes even the weekends. And the biggest thing I've noticed is the amount of stress that has gone away. My wife and I enjoy so many of the same things (maybe that's part of the reason we married) so that helps a lot. But I understand that for some people retirement can be a difficult adjustment. I know one elderly lawyer who worked into his eighties and died at his office desk, but that's what he wanted to do instead of retiring.
"Can you imagine talking about your spouse like that to a NYT writer?!"
I can’t. Perhaps it’s all made up by the author.
Ever since COVID, the missus and I have been around each other all day because we both (still!) work from home. There are some issues around having so little separateness—since we have so few independent experiences, conversation suffers. The only problem I foresee in retirement is that I want to live in Spain for a while. My wife knows and professes being on board, but I can’t escape to suspicion that she is just humouring me and is hoping that, when the time comes, I’ll drop it.
As usual Temujin has nailed it. We're the same as the Temujins just older I guess.
I think it’s more a concerted effort to convince people their lives are missing something or they’re unhappy or discontent. They may think it’s fine, but it’s not. But…never fear, the paper/magazine/column will help you know that and help you fix it.
My husband and I just commented the other day that we don’t really get tired of each other. We enjoy each other’s company. We do things on our own all the time, and we do many things together. Admittedly, there was that time we were both unemployed and living in a single-room loft apartment. My comment to him was one of us needed to go back to work because we needed some new stories to tell each other.
Can you imagine talking about your spouse like that to a NYT writer?!
Barbara was virtue signaling and I'm sure she got a nice pat on the head from the interviewer for so nicely regurgitating the narrative. I bet the interviewer led her to criticize her husband.
Dump her, Joe, without explanation.
Thirty five years ago I was tempting at a factory. There was an older man working there that management kept letting slide on the mandatory retirement pushes, because they knew he and his wife would not do well being home all day with each other.
I'm pretty sure neither of them would have talked about it to the New York Times, though.
Now, I think there's a secret plan to brainwash the American population into believing that retirement is bad.
I have been seeing more talk from pundits and politicians about raising the retirement age.
It's always from somebody who makes on their ass, not their feet.
In 2021, my wife was away for half the year and up to a month at a time showing one of our dogs. It actually took a day or two on her return to adjust to having her home.
RCOCEAN II said...
Ben Shapiro doesn't want you to retire
************
"That Ben Shapiro....just another greedy Jew who wants the goyim to support him."
Right?
All those preferences go out the window when you're suddenly single and someone new and energetic comes along.
I admit I'm a slug.
I could have written much of this article. My GF and I retired to Naples four years ago. It became apparent almost immediately that she was unhappy, despite the paradise all around us, and it only got worse. Six months ago, she told me she was leaving me and moving to Boston, where all three of her adult children live. Of course I’m going to stay here. I don’t think she will be as happy as she imagines in Boston, but she’ll have to find that out for herself.
EAB:
I think it’s more a concerted effort to convince people their lives are missing something or they’re unhappy or discontent. They may think it’s fine, but it’s not. But…never fear, the paper/magazine/column will help you know that and help you fix it.
Projection tends to end up becoming coercion.
I'll go to accompany you if you want to go
(laugh) Once you know this, you know the answer!
I am greatly anticipating retirement. It's not for a bit yet, but I cannot wait.
The art of fairh and reconciliation. It works for children, too.
The art of faith and reconciliation. It works for children, too.
"Mansplaining" indeed. I have never met a woman who was not at all times ready, willing, and able to explain to you in granular detail and with as much repetition as needed to convince you why she should have her way.
Spend a lot of time with anyone, you'll find something about him or her that annoys you -- the real question is, what are some of the things YOU do that are intensely annoying to your partner? And how could it not have occurred to Barbara that she has her own little clutch of vexatious behaviors that Joe could talk about for hours if he were as petty as she appears to be?
Best marriage advice I ever got was that your spouse (and you) will have behaviors that annoy --if you seriously believe that the behaviors are deliberate, and meant to annoy or hurt you with full awareness of the provocation, you should extract yourself from that situation immediately and never look back. But if it isn't deliberate and knowing, if it's just a personal trait he's had for years, just Joe Being Joe, so to speak, (and he most certainly has his own list of YOUR little quirks and whimsies, never doubt that) then are you going to risk losing everything for a few minutes of spiteful venting? Better to stay silent if you value what you have. A divorce lawyer friend once commented that the most destructive part of that process was both parties finding out they weren't nearly as wonderful and loveable as they thought themselves to be.
There was a study many years back - associated with Bell Labs - that indicated that, on average, it didn’t matter if a person retired at age of 60 or 66… the length of time from retirement to death was 5 years.
I’ve been retired for 5 years as of this past March. I’m living on borrowed time, I guess. Please let me just say thanks to Prof. Althouse for this amazing and entertaining blog site. And to all my fellow commenters, it has been a gas. I’m resigned to my fate. It won’t be long n
Strangely, when you're single and you retire, you have many of those same problems, especially the ones about "always been that way but now I have to deal with so much more of it." Only there's no one to get rid of, no one to send off to Boston with a sigh of relief. Still I love being retired. There's time to wonder. For instance, I wonder where the NYT gets the people it interviews; I wonder if there's casting call. "NYT is looking again for people with new, weird First World problems. Go to Room 78, NYT Building, 10am, May17th. If going out among people, or remembering dates or arriving on time are too hard, you may be one of the people we are looking for. Come to the door of our building and cry, any time."
""That Ben Shapiro....just another greedy Jew who wants the goyim to support him."
It took me half a beat to realize that it was RCOCEAN2 posting that... I thought, "why on earth does anyone care what this Ben Shapiro guy thinks? Oh, of course!"
Survive both of those, and well, we're in year 46 of marriage. Retirement, when it happens (or is it if?) won't be a problem. I'm 68, 2 retirement incomes, SS, and a completely non-stressful high paying job. Why should I retire?
Yeah, you sure are great. So smart. So clever. So rich. And humble. too.
Good lord, why do people go on the internet to brag about themselves? Nobody knows who the fuck you are guy, and we don't care about you. Except to wonder if you're cracked.
Wow, Anna K sure hates the Jews. And Ben Shapiro.
I don't like the guy, but I wouldn't go where you went.
Those studies that show you die 2 years or five years or the same number of years after you retire? Stop and think. When people's health is worse, they retire earlier.
I know, math is hard.
Some people can distill misery out of any circumstances, no matter how utopian.
(My wife and I both retired in 2019. We enjoyed it, enjoyed being together. Was the only thing that made dealing with her declining health possible. She died on 24 January. I miss her terribly.)
Four years ago I was forced in retirement on turning 65.
Next week my wife and Ieave to ride our bicycles from Astoria, OR to Portsmouth, NH. Planned to take 56 days, but we have time and money, so the trip will take what it will take. (My original route was going to take us through Madison, but I decided on the SS Badger across Lake Michigan, rather than the high speed ferry further south.)
So, yeah. We like each other's company. I don't have anything bad to say about my wife, but if I did, I sure as hell wouldn't be saying it in public.
I usually file articles like this in the 'desperate for victimhood' category. There seems to be a trend here - we all need to be the victim of something no matter much of a stretch. Did it occur to anyone a retired couple so focused on how their partner annoys them is pretty damn privileged? No health or physical concerns, no worries about finances. Just...whine...whine...whine about the person YOU chose to marry?
Smoking pot helps.
Iman quoted a study that regardless of retirement age, you die in years. I think our host would disagree. I know I have been retired 8 years. But, I'm the first male on my paternal side to live past age 55. Ive already beat the odds.
While was at my last move for 8 years, it was virtually zero stress. At least I thought so until I retired and moved into 2 part time contract jobs. My peers put way too much pressure on them selves. But my stress went to almost zero.
I get the best of retirement, I can drop my project for a week and travel/watch grand kids. I'm watching for $99 tickets to Vegas, and we will go see my nephew, an the spur of moment.
Wife still working, but the stress is down, because the company has no power over her. She has made clear she is working for her own pleasure. When there is no pleasure, shes gone. She likes that alot.
Hey Skipper:
Keep us informed about the trip.
At Wasta, SD, head south to the Cowboy Trail in NE. Well worth it. Better than the full grind across SD.
It is alarming (well, small-scale alarming) that the idea never arises that some portion of all that extra time should be spent with one's friends of the same sex, rather than one's spouse. We seem to live in a post-friendship society, so what is left of our social world often seems annoying. The idea of filling one's time with solo projects, like woodworking or baking, also seems to be left out of consideration, so your life as a creator of anything ends with your job. Even reading or meditation or prayer can provide transcendence not found in activities adopted as some sort of compromise with the old ball and chain.
I hope I die before I get old.
I semi retired in my early fifties and completely retired at fifty nine. Sometimes I would get a little bored, but not so much anymore.. I think boredom is less a part of life nowadays--what with the internet, streaming services, and video games. I have memories of Sunday afternoon doldrums especially on rainy days like today. I think that's why people bought the Sunday Times--to fight off the Sundays blahs. I didn't finish the article. Too boring. There are more interesting ways to waste my time. That Jerry Seinfeld movie sounds like it might be fun. I think I'll go watch it.
More important than thinking about what you are retiring from is what you are retiring to. What will you do with all that time ?
Sure, there’s plenty that you could be doing but give it some thought (no, a lot of thought) before you retire. And factor-in that while your mind may wish to be doing some things, your aging body may have other ideas. So, tick off all of the physical activities from your Bucket List, including travel, before the less physical ones.
And when in your 40’s, calculate what that Bucket List of items is likely to cost you and strategize your savings & investment plans accordingly so that you don’t disappoint your future self & spouse.
Re the 4% rule, a few years ago Morningstar produced a set of tables having calculated the Safe Withdrawal Rate (SWR) for different combinations of equity:bond content verses age / life-expectancy.
But again, should only be used as a very rough indication. You will have your own SWR unique to your own unique circumstances. Sophisticated software exists that can help financial planners with the calculations behind this and life’s foreseen changing needs.
In reality, an individual’s levels of expenditure will fluctuate during their retirement: typically the earlier years will be more active and thus more expensive; by about 70 the pace of life will start to slow and so will the expenditure begin to slow; and in the final decade home-help or nursing may be needed hence expenditure will increase (possibly dramatically).
But if retiring early then that earlier active period will be longer and hence more expensive. So, while you are working/earning you’d better save a lot and be smart and informed about it. Otherwise you’ll find the money running out before you run out of breath.
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...
“Those studies that show you die 2 years or five years or the same number of years after you retire? Stop and think. When people's health is worse, they retire earlier.””
I know, math is hard.”
Math can be difficult for some. Comedy can be, as well. And sometimes people don’t retire due to poor health. Sometimes people’s retirement isn’t by choice… could be a layoff or the employer closing shop due to rapid technological change, for example.
Enjoy your Sunday evening, Village Idiot!
Now that’s a plan, Hey Skipper! To be able to do something like that at the age of 69 is remarkable. My hat’s off to you and your Mrs.!
Dave Begley: At Wasta, SD, head south to the Cowboy Trail in NE. Well worth it. Better than the full grind across SD.
Interesting suggestion.
We drove US 20 across Nebraska a few years ago — outstanding. It was a motivation to make this trip.
I don't like camping, as it is an exercise in sleep deprivation. And that is just staring on the reasons to not like camping. For me, wilderness camping is a hotel without a mini-bar.
For those who haven't ventured left of the Missouri River, the western US is empty. For this trip, that meant hours of scanning and searching to find, and book, places to stay. For those plans which eventually make contact with reality, the further out one goes, the exponentially more unrealistic they become.
Wasta is our last but one booked stay. I could happily do the Cowboy Trail. However that entails going through Chicago/Milwaukee, or four or so days added to the trip getting back up to Muskeegon. But we have money and time, right?
Traveling by bicycle is a reality check. What takes an hour in a car is a day on a bike. Hills matter. So does the wind. Whether in the middle of SD or NE, and an afternoon airmass thunderstorm pops up? Taking cover is so not an option.
I retired from high school teaching at 55. I wrote a novel my first year out (never tried to publish, just wrote it. Coulda been a contender.). Next year my wife and I went to Lithuania to teach at a fairly newly-formed Christian university. Great experience. Came home and bought and renovated top to bottom a house on my block. Now my daughter and her fam live in it. Wrote a piece of song-displaying software the next year (church). Got a diabetes diagnosis. Lost 50 pounds mainly by walking, my wife at my side every step of the way. Bought another house and renovated it top to bottom. Took two years. Actually made money on this one. Went back to Lithuania for another stint. I’m 71 now and beginning my final update of my own 110-year-old house. Painting, roof repair, landscaping, plumbing fixes, etc. I don’t want to bequeath my kids a tired old grandpa’s house.
Sorry to brag but I love retirement. I’ve been doing things, mostly without pay, that I always wanted to do. It’s great having the time and my wife and I do not get tired of each other. Guy de Maupassant once said, “A man needs a woman in his youth as a lover. He needs one in his middle age as a companion. And he needs one in his twilight as a nurse.” I got all three in one package and for that I am eternally grateful to God.
My comment to him was one of us needed to go back to work because we needed some new stories to tell each other.
My husband and I, especially in our early years, sometimes had the same job - sometimes for the same company. We felt the above sentiment acutely!
So we keep making new friends to tell our old stories to. We're not exactly doing "Who's on first" yet, but for some stories we're not far off.
Also, I echo whoever it was who said they and their spouse (dang, I hate that construction, but in this case I can't think of a better one) never actually get tired of one another's company. I'm fortunate that my husband and I feel the same way - still one another's closest friend, confidant, and companion, and comfortable with sitting together in silence too. I hope, and plan, to continue this way.
RNB, I'm so sorry for your loss.
@Hey Skipper, what a terrific idea. Keep us posted with your notes as you go! Notes from the peddler. I hope you both have an awesome adventure.
That is a rough situation, RNB @4:22PM. I hope if I found myself in that situation, I could deal with it with a spirit and attitude like yours. Best wishes to you.
Bill Peschel - agree that a door on the office can work WONDERS. My husband is both more sociable and unable to maintain boundaries. I found that having an office with a door ups my productivity immensely. I need that clear separation to handle intense concentration.
Before, I was constantly being pulled out of deep thoughts by, "Honey? Can I just interrupt you for a moment?" When I pulled myself away, I imagine with an irritated frown on my face, he would hastily add, "Never mind, I can come back later." He never seemed to get that I had already been dragged away from my thoughts in a way that meant I would NEVER get them back. Being apologetic didn't change that.
On my part, I have learned to fuss more about him: when asked for something, I've learned to use the phrases, "It would be my pleasure" or "Happy to help out!". I learned that from Chik-Fil-A people, who are instructed never to reply to a request with "no problem".
I make a big deal about making sure his dishes are cleared away, that instead of grumbling about his detritus - empty beer cans, receipts left scattered, barbeque sauce on tables, counters, cupboards - I just quietly clear things up. I've also learned to make a point of clearing up areas that I would normally ignore until it bothered me - like dresser tops, shower shelves - because it is important to HIM.
Really, I think the way to manage all that time together is to:
- Deliberately carve out some time when BOTH of you have other things to do - harder for men, many of them retire only to find that nearly all of their friendships are work-related.
- Act with courtesy towards each other; put your spouse before self; make a point of doing at least ONE thing together each day; end the day with each other.
- Be in the same room for those tasks that don't require intense concentration - filing paperwork, cleaning the kitchen, laundry, folding clothes. Proximity promotes warm fuzzy feelings.
They are one person
They are two alone
They are three together
They are four each other
Helplessly Hoping
Crosby, Stills & Nash
NYT, if you’re listening, I find each of her too-few-to-mention “annoying habits” to be sweet, charming and adorable. Okay, I’ll mention one: She has this annoying habit of whispering in my ear, “I like everything about you.” Drives me nuts and I don’t mean to mansplain but it’s like elegantly manicured cherry-red dainty fingernails down the chalkboard of my spine.
My wife loves to travel. I don't. She's a part time travel writer and gets all kinds of comped trips all over the world. If I didn't have to fly to visit my daughters I'd never get in a plane. I'll travel by car anywhere in North America as long as there's trout at the end.
My retirement consists of, "Can you come over and fix this?" "Can you make this part?". Somehow I manage to keep busy.
Hey Skipper, I looked at your route and you'll be passing 1.1 miles from my house. Lot's of cyclists travel Rt. 31 in CNY.
I strongly suggest you look more closely at the Rochester NY portion. Unless there's some reason you want to travel across Rochester on city streets - don't. I didn't clock the distances, but continuing down the Erie Canalway Trail to the Genesee River, crossing the canal on the Empire State Trail then the river on the Waldo J. Nielsen Bridge would, even if a little bit longer, be much safer and ultimately faster. And keep you off bicycle unfriendly Rochester streets. Much less time on streets vs. paths to get to the Hilton Garden Inn in Rochester. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1214753,-77.6416877,419m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu is a clear view of the area for crossing.
A view of Emerson St to Lyle Ave should be enough to reconsider the route. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1704796,-77.6580417,1916m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu
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