"The delicate tissue sheaths that insulate each biological circuit lay in 'disorganized clumps,' and throughout Mr. Card’s brain there was scarring and inflammation suggesting repeated trauma. This was not C.T.E., the report said. It was a characteristic pattern of damage that has been found before in military veterans who were repeatedly exposed to weapons blasts during their service."
From "Profound Damage Found in Maine Gunman’s Brain, Possibly From Blasts/A laboratory found a pattern of cell damage that has been seen in veterans exposed to weapons blasts, and said it probably played a role in symptoms the gunman displayed before the shooting" (NYT).
Mr. Card = Robert Card, who had been a grenade instructor in the Army Reserve and, after 8 years of exposure to blasts, "began hearing voices" and experiencing "paranoid delusions." He killed 18.
March 7, 2024
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42 comments:
In WW1 they used the semi-scientific concept of "Shell Shock" following combat.
After Vietnam there was revisionism and Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD; mental illness).
After boxing research over the last few decades "Punch Drunk" turned into medical CTE.
Now...Shell Shock returns?
FWIW regarding politics, the science is never settled.
The VA has more important things to do than care for veterans. They have history to erase.
Careful not to make assumptions.
Correlation is not causation.
Very interesting. I kind of miss the time when I took scientific results reported by the media seriously. Now I live in a fog of cynicism and humility. I know, or believe, very little.
Can we study him and then kill him.
In WWI, neurologists thought that "shell shock" was brain damage from being near explosions. That was quickly ignored for other explanations but after the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, doctors are starting to think along those same lines again.
@Enigma said: "FWIW regarding politics, the science is never settled."
Well..... if it's being done properly, isn't saying the 'science is never settled' actually the correct way to approach science? The problems arise when people declare 'the science is settled' to achieve political ends, often with cooked results.
Which has left many of us feeling like @Old and slow....
White Matter Matters?
I thought the media said he killed 18 because he like Donald Trump.
For all of the many thousands of veterans, and other people who have been exposed to multiple explosions, gunfire, artillery, etc., very few go completely nuts like this. Is the exposure the proximate cause? Perhaps there's more to the story.
anecdotal. Speaking with a man yesterday who's young grand daughter was born with a severe heart defect and a mass attached.
The docs said it was probably due the Covid vaccine.
The mom is a school teacher and she was forced to get the jab.. over and over.
While understanding the specific cause might point to some potential diagnostics, I think the more important question is exploring what was and wasn't done when he "began hearing voices" and experiencing "paranoid delusions."
The response to this will be to call for taking away all veterans' rights.
It sounds doubtful, since noise isn't destructive to anything but hearing.
so? If you've had a traumatic brain injury, murder is allowed? Asking for a friend
Statistically insignificant correlation. Hmm, social industrial complex. You are the rat.
@rhhardin "It sounds doubtful, since noise isn't destructive to anything but hearing."
Nope. The side blast and concussion can be severe.
Video of 50 BMG rifle muzzle blast and destructive testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWS0fW1yyOw
"It literally feels as if you are being punched in the face. If you shoot this enough you can go home concussed."
Here's a 75mm artillery piece knocking a guy over: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR9vqJZkmJY
Here's a Navy 16" gun broadside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFWh6xlsTm0
rhhardin said...It sounds doubtful, since noise isn't destructive to anything but hearing.
They're blowing up dogs to figure it out. That's probably where Commander went, not to live on a farm.
"The mechanism of blast-induced TBI has been controversial for a long time. Direct cranial transmission of blast waves was considered by most investigators as the mechanical mechanism by which the blast wave causes mild TBI. Only few investigators hypothesized that thoraco-abdominal vascular/hydrodynamic transmission of blast waves could be the major cause of blast-induced TBI. To separate direct cranial transmission of blast waves from thoraco-abdominal vascular/hydrodynamic mechanism to blast-induced TBI, two “iron lung”-like protective devices are designed for protection of desired parts of the animal body against blast waves. One “Iron lung”-like protective device allows only the animal head to expose to blast waves, and another makes the animal thorax and abdomen only expose to blast waves.
More recent studies have supported the theory that the major mechanism of blast TBI involves damage to the blood–brain barrier (BBB) and tiny cerebral blood vessels, which is caused by blood surging quickly through large blood vessels from the torso to the brain"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26269892/#:~:text=More%20recent%20studies%20%28Assari%20et%20al.%2C%202013%3B%20Chen,torso%20to%20the%20brain%20%28Chen%20and%20Huang%2C%202011%29.
IANAD but wouldn't the putative damage be attributable to repeated concussion rather than just 'loud noise'?
The response to this will be to call for taking away all veterans' rights.
...gun rights.
Unless Army basic has changed since I went through many years ago, they use either dummy grenades or training grenades with less pop in grenade training.
But let’s blame the military anyway.
Imagine if he had been a rifle trainer. They use live rounds there. Lots of them.
This is the classic "Shell Shock", a phrase I can't remember hearing as a diagnosis in a long, long time.
He had some brain cell damage...that lots of veterans have. So? Lots of veterans don't murder 18 people.
Yes, I remember all the Life magazine articles in the 1950s about WWII vets going on shooting sprees. Shell shock is about combatants being shelled, not the ones firing. Not buying it.
This story does not make a lot of sense. He shot himself in the head, so I imagine that there would be significant trauma to the brain tissues from that, which would have to be distinguished. And a "grenade instructor" is not exposed to noise and over-pressure that is any different from walking by a construction site, as they have hearing protection and are usually behind barriers yards away from any actual detonation. The causation issue is huge, given that people who work in construction and demolitions do not shoot dozens of people. I agree with the other commenters who think that this is just another effort to stigmatize veterans and to create a case to exculpate the shooter in this horrible situation. Sometimes folks just go crazy, or are evil.
I will just point out that any "noise" you hear is a physical wave of motion in the liquid air around you- the explosion of a gun is the cause of that wave- your brain is just another liquid surrounded by your skull, and a gun blast can induce a wave in your brain, too- the skull protects it, but not completely. In bombings, people are often killed by the liquefaction of their organs caused by the compression waves if they are close enough to the blast, not the shrapnel.
CTE can be caused by a large number of non concussion blows.
"For all of the many thousands of veterans, and other people who have been exposed to multiple explosions, gunfire, artillery, etc., very few go completely nuts like this. Is the exposure the proximate cause? Perhaps there's more to the story."
There are significant numbers of veterans who do become damaged emotionally to varying degrees, falling into alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, PTSD, and suicidal ideation, sometimes carried out. I'd bet the participation in and witnessing of the terrible violence war wreaks on human bodies and the violent loss of one's comrades has some degree of traumatizing impact on survivors, but the constant exposure to the concussive impact of loud explosions and constant firearms also seems plausible as a cause of physical trauma to soldiers, leading to cognitive and emotional trauma, as well.
"so? If you've had a traumatic brain injury, murder is allowed? Asking for a friend"
Utterly puerile, as you surely knew as you typed your comment. Traumatic brain injury, however received, does not make "murder...allowed," but it may explain why some people carry out inexplicably violent acts such as gunning down masses of people. Knowing this, if confirmed, may lead to effective preventive measures and for more thorough post-traumatic treatment practices.
"IANAD but wouldn't the putative damage be attributable to repeated concussion rather than just 'loud noise'?"
Repeated loud noise, if loud enough, may inflict repeated (or cumulative) concussive damage, which is why the questions are being raised.
Glad to see Cookie is on top of this issue. If it’s “plausible” to him, who could doubt it?
Bob Boyd: fascinating stuff about TBI. Thanks for that.
My British grandfather fought in WWI in France. Lots of shell shock cases. Soldiers in the trenches were repeatedly exposed to the concussion waves from high explosive shells landing nearby. If you weren't killed by the explosion, or maimed by the shrapnel (as my grandfather was), your soft tissues were constantly smacked around by the concussion.
Before one attack on British trenches in 1916, the Germans shelled the British for 18 hours. About 40,000 shells were dropped on a stretch of trenches that ran for 5 miles. Imagine getting concussed thousands of times in a single day. Not long after that, some men would stop eating, they would not respond to orders, some would roll into a ball after every blast. Some would abruptly get up, drop their weapon and try to "walk home" (i.e., walk to Bristol from Amiens). Those men would be arrested and charged with desertion. Some of the more lucid ones were executed after a court martial.
After the war, special hospitals were set up to treat all the brain-damaged veterans. One of those hospitals is about a block from my office; it's used now as a rehab clinic for people who've suffered brain injuries and strokes.
Fun fact: the "shrapnel" you got hit with frequently included razor-sharp pieces of freshly-shattered bone from the poor buggers who just got vaporized by a direct hit. If such shrapnel went deep enough, it could causes sepsis, which would kill you eventually. No antibiotics.
The only good news is the armed forces are becoming more and more automated, and the use of drones becoming more prevalent, which might alleviate some of this in the future...
CTE can be caused by a large number of non concussion blows.
So don't bang your head against the wall trying to make Howard see the light. ;)
When he developed paranoid symptoms, was he ever put on a 302 hold? Did he get psychiatric treatment? THAT is so common in many of the mass shootings (which are not the gang type). Mental problems should have caused the individual to have been hospitalized for treatment. I am a very strong civil libertarian when it comes to adult medical choices, but there is a point at which someone does not have the free will to make those choices. Hearing voices, is one of those instances.
"I agree with the other commenters who think that this is just another effort to stigmatize veterans...."
How is it "stigmatizing" veterans by studying if exposure to concussive bomb blasts and other loud noises on the battlefield causes brain-damage to soldiers? It is an attempt to discover if veterans are suffering brain-damage from battlefield conditions such that their thinking becomes disordered, to the point of some may develop violent ideation. That is DEstigmatizing them to the degree it can be shown they are victims of physical injury to the brain, leading to behavior they would never have exhibited absent the brain injury.
Kinky Friedman's song "The Ballad of Charles Joseph Whitman" is probably as scientifically sound as this medical report. Whitman of course was the Texas Tower shooter. Kinky sings of Whitman "they tore his poor brain down, not a stitch of illness could be found".
Kinky then goes on to point out that Whitman had been an Eagle Scout--offering it as possible alternate explanation for Whitman going up into the Texas Tower with a deer rifle and blazing away at the students and people on campus.
"For all of the many thousands of veterans, and other people who have been exposed to multiple explosions, gunfire, artillery, etc., very few go completely nuts like this. Is the exposure the proximate cause? Perhaps there's more to the story."
There are significant numbers of veterans who do become damaged emotionally to varying degrees, falling into alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, PTSD, and suicidal ideation, sometimes carried out. I'd bet the participation in and witnessing of the terrible violence war wreaks on human bodies and the violent loss of one's comrades has some degree of traumatizing impact on survivors, but the constant exposure to the concussive impact of loud explosions and constant firearms also seems plausible as a cause of physical trauma to soldiers, leading to cognitive and emotional trauma, as well.
To Cook's point, is anyone aware of any studies on the incidence of PTSD (or symptoms thereof) on combat veterans versus people who spent significant time in the military but did not see combat?
Charles Whitman, did have a brain tumor. His autopsy found a tumor in the region of the amygdala which regulates emotion and the fight-or-flight response. It's not conclusively the direct cause of his actions, but we'll never know for sure. It probably didn't help.
Robert Cook said...
Utterly puerile, as you surely knew as you typed your comment
you have to give Cook credit! he saw RIGHT THROUGH my "asking for a friend" comment, and remembered that gilbar himself has a traumatic brain injury!
You are one smart cookie Mister Cook!
But Again.. Speaking as a person With a history of Traumatic Brain Injuries..
CAN *i* use That as a carte blanche? It'd be nice to know that all those lesions in gilbar's brain are of Some Use
Ok, let’s take two similar cohorts. The first is made up of young Black men from (pick your typical big city). The second is made up of young Black men from that same city who served in the military. Which group do you think has the most likelihood of committing a violent crime?
One more reason not to join up.
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