"The interior ministry has proposed a 13-point plan that would, among other things, enable security forces to investigate the finances of anyone viewed as having 'threat potential,' as opposed to only those people being investigated for incitement or violence.
Another would allow civil servants to be dismissed based on suspected ties to extremists, placing the burden of proof on employees rather than the state...."
"How far should a democracy go in restricting a party that many believe is bent on undermining it?... Today, German lawmakers are rewriting bylaws and pushing for constitutional amendments to ensure courts and state parliaments can provide checks against a future, more powerful AfD. Some have even launched a campaign to ban the AfD altogether...."
From the comments over there: "I'm alarmed by these proto-fascist movements but it's neither correct nor a winning strategy to reflexively label them 'threats to democracy.' Unfortunately they are products of democracy. They're reflections of society, and this is what democracy can and very often does look like."
Posts
77 comments:
Since the fascist have already taken over here please let us know what we can do about it….
what the left fail to see is their reaction to any dissent against them (to crush, ban, imprison, destroy... etc)
That is as totalitarian, as authoritarian, and as fascist as a group of elite leftist authoritarians can get.
It would be funny if it weren’t so scary the number of countries where supposedly democratic institutions are willing to undermine democracy in order to protect their own influence against a public that is souring on them.
Used to be, if a political party was losing popularity, they’d try to increase their popularity. Now, for far too many, they’ve decided it’s easier to decrease the importance of popularity.
And in typically cynical fashion, they call it “protecting democracy.”
When I first started reading this post, I thought it was about the Dems in America.
I’ve said it repeatedly, for the Left, an extremist is anyone who doesn’t agree with their crazy ideas.
The village must be destroyed in order to save the village.
The chi com virus was manufactured in a lab and released on purpose.
these a-hole mob-like elite power obsessed leftist Soros types have their groove back. Nothing but confidence.
If they want to take us all down - they can.
I suppose we’re in a better position to offer advice-
You need to be careful with any new measures to ‘save’ your democracy. They are usually more totalitarian than anything from the people you’re trying to stop. You can’t worry about the guy with better policies because he’s not your cup of tea. You’re not picking someone you want a beer with or to blow. Don’t be a one trick pony- you might love free and legal and frequent abortion but it probably isn’t worth wrecking everything over.
It is never time to ‘just move on’…it only incentivizes them to take bolder measures.
If you find yourself rewriting laws in ways to stop your opponent that you would never want to apply to you, or would destroy your economy or rule of law if you enforced them equally, well, the thing you’re doing is probably not a good idea.
If your side has to get super creative with immigration and or the law to ensure you get enough votes in the next election you probably don’t have enough support to govern anyways. No, it doesn’t matter the next election is ‘the most important in your lifetimes’. Hint- they’re all important…
If you look around and see you’re the one doing the censoring and confiscating and imprisoning and threatening of the people you’re governing- you’re the asshole.
Everything I know about German politics, I learned skimming this NYT column.
At first blush, it seems they suffer from too much federal power. Not enough State power.
A cautionary tale?
The article doesn't even give an overview of the AfD position. Just the name-calling. And about half of the commenters feel a hammer is justified and proper.
Germany is not the USA. They watch Hollywood WWII movies like a penitential hair shirt. Turkish immigrants, long before Merkel's folly, were an underclass with no path for integration. The Catholic Church charges taxes on the faithful before they can receive the sacraments. Free speech is not protected there.
It's wrong of the NYT to lump all Western countries together as if we're examples and lessons for each other.
I'd not say this is new, just an admission of what they've been doing for a very long time. The post-WW2 German government firmly suppressed all non-center dissent into the 1990s. Post-WW2 Germany has been led by a party named the "Christian Democrats." Egad! If the USA had a party named the "Christian Republicans" they'd be branded the new KKK in seconds.
The current political framing is empty words used to defend tradition and the continuation of power. There's little difference in how a given country governs once a new group is in power. Some cultures are quite happy being governed by coercive cultural monoliths.
Brings to mind the Vietnam war logic, "it became necessary to destroy the [democracy] to save it."
As another of the law-prof blog royalty would say, Orwell's "1984" was supposed to be a warning, not a plan.
Only a hyperpussy would call the US a fascist state. Are you living in your own personal Holocaust? That's not to say that the government isn't too intrusive and irritating. But c'mon, girlfriend. Fascist? Obviously a lack of testosterone is affecting your judgement and makes you prone to hysteria.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Does Germany forget what happened the last time the party in power assumed sweeping authority to unleash law enforcement and domestic intelligence agencies on disfavored and unpopular "threats to democracy?"
Fools? Evildoers? Both?
From the comments over there...
"I'm alarmed by these proto-fascist movements..."
Me too!
"...but it's neither correct nor a winning strategy to reflexively label them 'threats to democracy.'"
Oh. So it's not the authoritarians proposing Stazi-esque 13-point plans for control that you're actually worried about.
When the left talks about "[Our] Democracy", they don't really mean "democracy"(*), they mean "Central Committee".
(*) A republic is superior to a democracy anyway.
"we had to destroy democracy.. In order to 'save' it"
you CAN'T just let 'the people' rule.. THAT isn't what democracy is all about!!
democracy is about letting 'the people' THINK they rule.. THAT is what it's all about!!
They're reflections of society, and this is what democracy can and very often does look like
"Democracy" (and "freedom") can be a real b!tch kitty, as the Eastern Europeans found out after the Wall came down.
Maybe they could devise a hand gesture to be mutually deployed when meeting people who also want to eliminate the political opposition.
It's a threat to the democracy of the turkey farm if the turkeys are allowed to vote for a party that opposes Thanksgiving.
“They're reflections of society, and this is what democracy can and very often does look like”
Democracy. I know it when I see it.
“They're reflections of society, and this is what democracy can and very often does look like”
Democracy. I know it when I see it.
If Biden loses in November, I will not be at all surprised if Sotomayor "suddenly retires for health reasons" and be quickly replaced in December. The GOP did a whirlwind replacement when RBG passed, sauce for the goose... and I would think the Democrats would have learned their lesson when RBG stayed on after the Democrats lost the Senate in 2014, let alone the 2016 election.
The problem is that the far left has controlled the worldwide media for some time now. And anyone, or any movement that is right of center has been labeled 'far-right', 'fascist','Nazi', or 'a danger to democracy' so many times, for so long, that it's hard to see this move in Germany as anything other than what it is: An attempt by the Left to hold onto some power, even as they are thrown out of power. Interesting that their instinct is to just ban that party that they fear, not letting actual democracy take place. Similarly, in the US the left has been on a 7 year attempt to jail Trump, rather than allow him to be voted in by the nation.
It turns out democracy is this thing that is only considered 'good' when it selects people on the left, but is in danger when it selects people on the right. It is a constant here in the US, and it's pretty much a feature throughout Europe. And Israel.
" Are you living in your own personal Holocaust?"
Were you during Trump's first term?
It’s too early for your mincing, Howard.
Das deepen staten
Hitler was only elected with a plurality. If the Communists had formed a popular front with the Social Democrats, they could have kept him out of office. The Communists, however, felt that Hitler would install such a repressive regime that he would trigger the long awaited and historically inevitable proletarian uprising and they would then be able to take power. There were some glitches, like, for example WWII, in this plan but in East Germany they were, in fact, able to assume power. The Communist regime in East Germany was for more durable and totalitarian than the Nazi one. Good things happen to those who wait.....The study of German history teaches one that there are no useful lessons to bed learned from the study of German history. Still, they're not as fucked up as the Russians.
"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"
Gee, wasn't the guy who wrote that German?
This is why we speak of “Constitutional democracy” (whether the constitution is written down or not). Franklin said “A republic, Madam” - not a democracy. The people must be allowed freely to choose their representatives, who then operate under a pre-established set of rules, which can only be changed through a deliberative, hyper-majoritative process and not by the Deep State itself. Those whose rice bowls depend on continually deluding the public, of course, may not see it that way.
"All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."
Benito Mussolini
Benito knew his business. The left corrupts everything including the meaning of fascism.
My faith in the American people won't let me be intimidated by President Trump. I'm actually looking forward to Trump's second term. The DNC needs a proper Rogering and Donald is just the fucker for the job.
"these a-hole mob-like elite power obsessed leftist Soros types have their groove back. Nothing but confidence.
If they want to take us all down - they can." 3/20/24, 6:21 AM
They have. Illegal immigration is the tool. The finishing touches will come after they steal the 2024 election.
William said...
Hitler was only elected with a plurality. If the Communists had formed a popular front with the Social Democrats,
===============
weren't the Communists taking instructions not to do so from Soviet Communists Stalin?/Lenin?
Althouse found a wise commenter over there.
Unfortunately, their problem is similar to one we have here: the very people who scream about "our democracy"* are the same ones undermining our system of a constitutional republic and the rule of law because they are hell-bent on subjugating our -- the peoples' -- will to the will of the global elite as embodied by the WEF, gruesome Bond villains come to life.
*The possessive formulation of this stock phrase gives the game away too.
The party jails protesters invited into government buildings, calling them an insurrectionists. The party has government employees embedded within the protesters, encouraging them to foment actions of an angry mob. One or two cooperate and are shot and killed, then the invited protestors are lumped together to create a political farce the fascists use to leverage political advantage.
Were it not for the Supremes it would be all over by now. I'll stick with the label fascists.
How stupid do you have to be as a politician not to realize that the AfD, like Donald Trump here in the US, are a symptom of a very deep discontent with the people who have been running the country? Trying to use legal, quasi-legal, and extralegal means to quash the AfD (and Trump!) is like “curing” measles by covering up the rash with makeup.
The fun part is that changes are implemented to keep out the "bad" party or whatever, but when the "bad" leader overcomes the barriers, the powers are their to be wielded.
Well, the BfV also classifies some organizations as left wing extremist. So it would be a question of checking names of parliamentary staffers related to left wing factions (die Linke, basically) and seeing what comes up. The data is not public, of course, so someone would have to do some digging. BR said they were not able to get a comprehensive list of AfD members with security passes. They had a sample of 500.
In any case, while there is a large left wing extremist scene in Germany, it is not on the same scale as the right wing extremist scene, as has been repeatedly detailed by de-classified German intelligence reports.
Of course, if you are sympathetic to, or supportive of the AfD, the fashionably lunatic thing to say is that that's all because of some deep state conspiracy and really the evil globalist left is the true threat, not a few put-upon truth-talking patriots.
The democratic/dictatorial duality.
Kevin said...
Maybe they could devise a hand gesture to be mutually deployed when meeting people who also want to eliminate the political opposition.
3/20/24, 6:59 AM
….
I literally laughed out loud. I almost spit coffee.
Blogger William said...
Hitler was only elected with a plurality. If the Communists had formed a popular front with the Social Democrats, they could have kept him out of office. The Communists, however, felt that Hitler would install such a repressive regime that he would trigger the long awaited and historically inevitable proletarian uprising and they would then be able to take power. There were some glitches, like, for example WWII, in this plan but in East Germany they were, in fact, able to assume power. The Communist regime in East Germany was for more durable and totalitarian than the Nazi one. Good things happen to those who wait.....The study of German history teaches one that there are no useful lessons to bed learned from the study of German history. Still, they're not as fucked up as the Russians.
…
Although to be fair, Germany was fighting everyone of the allied powers, everyone of the most powerful armies in the world at that time. After the war ended with Germany, defeated, no one fought against the Russians. I mean, there were no tanks or planes, or external disruption of their economy.if that were the situation in Germany, Germany would have persisted forever as well. Or if the opposite or the case in Russia and all of the world’s power, came down to fight, Russia, making the same sacrifices they made fighting Germany. It would if that were the situation in Germany, Germany would have persisted forever as well. Or if the opposite or the case in Russia and all of the worlds power, came down to fight, Russia, making the same sacrifices they made fighting Germany. It would have been a different conclusion.
Blogger William said...
Hitler was only elected with a plurality. If the Communists had formed a popular front with the Social Democrats, they could have kept him out of office. The Communists, however, felt that Hitler would install such a repressive regime that he would trigger the long awaited and historically inevitable proletarian uprising and they would then be able to take power. There were some glitches, like, for example WWII, in this plan but in East Germany they were, in fact, able to assume power. The Communist regime in East Germany was for more durable and totalitarian than the Nazi one. Good things happen to those who wait.....The study of German history teaches one that there are no useful lessons to bed learned from the study of German history. Still, they're not as fucked up as the Russians.
…
Although to be fair, Germany was fighting everyone of the allied powers, everyone of the most powerful armies in the world at that time. After the war ended with Germany, defeated, no one fought against the Russians. I mean, there were no tanks or planes, or external disruption of their economy.if that were the situation in Germany, Germany would have persisted forever as well. Or if the opposite or the case in Russia and all of the world’s power, came down to fight, Russia, making the same sacrifices they made fighting Germany. It would if that were the situation in Germany, Germany would have persisted forever as well. Or if the opposite or the case in Russia and all of the worlds power, came down to fight, Russia, making the same sacrifices they made fighting Germany. It would have been a different conclusion.
Blogger rehajm said...
The party jails protesters invited into government buildings, calling them an insurrectionists. The party has government employees embedded within the protesters, encouraging them to foment actions of an angry mob. One or two cooperate and are shot and killed, then the invited protestors are lumped together to create a political farce the fascists use to leverage political advantage.
Were it not for the Supremes it would be all over by now. I'll stick with the label fascists.
…
Don’t forget. It is self executing, whatever that means. I think self executing means you do not have the right to a trial. Some guy decides insurrection means something and decides that you were guilty of it. No trial. No opportunity to defend yourself. Sounds a little fascist to me. I mean sure all the people who were convicted of insurrection should go to jail. As far as I know, that’s a very small group. Less than 10. Actually less than two. In fact, I think it might be less than one. The idea that someone in the United States of America is guilty of anything without being allowed , a defense is appalling.
So far everything I’ve read about AFD is that they sound like pretty normal conservatives. Whenever I read about them, they are universally described as just barely the site of Hitler. And then, when you actually read what they stand, for they seem like pretty normal people. They do not want open borders. They do not want millions of uneducated People who do not speak German and who do not speak English do not have a tradition of normal liberal western values, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion and women’s rights, and who have no marketable skills to come into the country and cause havoc and on taxpayer money . They do not want poverty. They do not want to give up reliable energy for unreliable more expensive energy. They do not want the government intruding in their wives. Every article I’ve ever read about them makes it sound like they want to execute all the gays and all the brown people. But then every time I’ve actually read what their supporters believe in it is normal things that pretty much everybody here on this blog believes in. The people who would be strong supporters of say Reagan or GWB.
IF you look in the wikipedia page and other sites you'll see the AFD is NOT fascist or nazi. its against immigration and climate change. And the war in the Ukraine.
IOW, the sacred cows of the liberal/left. So, the AFD must be destroyed. Even if the Germany people want it.
I'm beginning to realize "Democracy" is just a code word for "Globalst Liberal/left". Just substitute that for "Democracy" in the NYT's and other MSM articles and it all sense. That's why voting for the AFD is a "Threat to Democracy". LOL. Its why Trump is a "Threat to Democracy". And antifa which beats up people in NOT.
The liberal/left has the power in the USA and in Germany and they're going to use it to stay in office. Anyone who isn't the controlled fake opposition will be the subject to lawfare, spied upon, and have endless abuse thrown at them by every major media outlet. Germany's Left/globalist establishment has one big advantage over the USA, they can just ban the party outright. Or throw anyone who says "boo"in Jail. There is no 1st Admendment.
There's been a massive decline in the German workers standard of living, all tied to the insane decision to boycott cheap Russian natural gas, get rid of nuclear pwoer, and send Billions to the Ukraine.
The Ukraine is none of Germany's business. The war is a globalist, insulated elite hobby horse. Its not surprising that given the Elites callous disregard for the tens of thousands of Ukrainians dying in a no-win war, they wouldn't care if the AVERAGE German is suffering.
The AFD may be Germany's only hope to stop this madness.
Mutally Assured Facism?
Just substitute "antifacism" for "anticommunist" in the below
What these self-styled “anticommunist liberals” are fighting against is not communism as such, but a communist system in which they themselves are not at the helm. What they are aiming at is a socialist, i.e., communist, system in which they themselves or their most intimate friends hold the reins of government. It would perhaps be too much to say that they are burning with a desire to liquidate other people. They simply do not wish to be liquidated. In a socialist commonwealth, only the supreme autocrat and his abettors have this assurance.
Mises, Ludwig von (1956). The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality
Maybe, just maybe, the mainstream parties could reverse their open contempt for normal people and the rule of law. It's so crazy, it just might work!
Don’t forget your patented do-si-do and curtsy, Howard!
Howard said...
Only a hyperpussy would call the US a fascist state
Have you ever read mussolini, Howard?
He invented "Fascism" as a political ideolpgy/movement (to the extent that any one person really invents anything)
He, not you, not me, gets to define what it is.
So tell us Howard, how is the us today, under Brandon & Co, NOT a fascist country? What parts of fascist ideology have we NOT adopted or are working toward adopting?
John Henry
Howard said...
Only a hyperpussy would call the US a fascist state
Have you ever read mussolini, Howard?
He invented "Fascism" as a political ideolpgy/movement (to the extent that any one person really invents anything)
He, not you, not me, gets to define what it is.
So tell us Howard, how is the us today, under Brandon & Co, NOT a fascist country? What parts of fascist ideology have we NOT adopted or are working toward adopting?
John Henry
The battle was lost the moment they created a government entity called the "Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution". Talk about foxes guarding the hen house - - Of all the people and entities the constitutional polity needs protection against, surely appointed office holders come at the very top of the list.
And what did fascism have to do with the Holocaust (12mm Jews and non-jews), Howard?
That was socialism. German national socialism (or National Socialism if tou prefer.
Not the Italian brand of national socialism (called fascism)
Definition of socialism, per Marx (have you read him?) control of the economy by the state (a/k/a "the people" (; )
John Henry
Keith,
"They do not want the government intruding in their wives"
Most especially not *that*!
LOL
The is a generally held view that democracy is a good thing.
Nobody ever seems to stop and ask why.
American Democracy can be defined as "Majority rule" we add a lot of argle-bargle to that usually but that's all just frosting.
Majority rule is just another name for "mob rule"
We could, 100% "democratically", legally and constitutionally, have an American Holocaust.
Not easily, perhaps, but we could go through process of a Constitutional amendment permitting all people suspected of wrong think to be executed and turned into fertilizer.
Then our democratically elected Congress could pass the appropriate laws and our democratically elected president could have the army, paid with democratically approved taxes, round up the wrong thinkers and murder them.
Though "murder" implies illegality and this would be legal. Perhaps call the death machines "recycling centers" "ashes to ashes" and all that.
I'm sure it will be a great comfort to be able to tell the wife and kids as you are led off to be recycled "this is what democracy looks like. Thank God we didn't let that bad orange man destroy it"
Yeah, tell me again how great democracy is. Be sure to start with "now this ain't no shit..."
Some might prefer "once upon a time..."same thing
John Henry
Howard, just because some guy's balls slap against your chin every day doesn't make you an expert on testosterone.
Rich would make an excellent member of the Gestapo.
Maybe they are taking a page from Dolton IL's "Super Mayor". She had the city ordinance rewritten so she would keep her salary if she was re-elected, but if someone beat her, they would get $25k.
Unfortunately, their problem is similar to one we have here: the very people who scream about "our democracy"* are the same ones undermining our system of a constitutional republic
The older I get, and with my kids now in middle/high school, the more the overuse of the word democracy chafes and the clear lack of emphasis on a constintutional republic becomes apparent as a huge part of our current problem. If their civics education concentrated on this as a starting point, which is hardly a controversial thing, our young citizens would be better equipped to deal with a lot of the BS that comes from our elected officials.
Granted, "constitutional republic" isn't currently a controversial topci, but I imagine that would change rapidly if states/schools actually took my advice; ie, "republic" would become a dogwhistle for white supremacy.
"Democracy must be respected, it is the will of the majority!"
"Yes, and so is gang-rape."
Every country on earth would be better off if the 'far right' took power.
No country can afford open borders and invasions from low-IQ, 7th-century hordes.
But it's probably already too late for France and England.
"Another would allow civil servants to be dismissed based on SUSPECTED ties to extremists, placing the burden of proof on employees rather than the state...."
Wow.
"Another would allow civil servants to be dismissed based on SUSPECTED ties to extremists, placing the burden of proof on employees rather than the state...."
How on earth is it even possible to prove such a negative? It's depressing how stupid and venal politicians are, in Germany as in every other country. Government is a magnet for the shit and dross and dregs of every society.
"suspected ties to extremists"
Does that include the environment left wing?
Gee only 20 mentions of Nazi, Holocaust, or Hitler.
Pretty good for an Althouse boomer thread. Usually any mention of "Germany" gets at least 50.
Howard said...
Only a hyperpussy would call the US a fascist state. Are you living in your own personal Holocaust? That's not to say that the government isn't too intrusive and irritating. But c'mon, girlfriend. Fascist? Obviously a lack of testosterone is affecting your judgement and makes you prone to hysteria.
**************
Howard tacitly admits he thinks all women (who normally have only 5 to 10% the testosterone men do) are VERY prone to hysteria.
Thanks for sharing.
Steve said...
If Biden loses in November, I will not be at all surprised if Sotomayor "suddenly retires for health reasons" and be quickly replaced in December. The GOP did a whirlwind replacement when RBG passed, sauce for the goose... and I would think the Democrats would have learned their lesson when RBG stayed on after the Democrats lost the Senate in 2014, let alone the 2016 election.
****************
If Biden loses, the Senate will very likely gain GOP members. Getting Senate consent to a Biden-nominee during the two-odd months he is a lame duck seems most unlikely.
Alice Weidel, the co-leader of the AfD, is a lesbian. I don't know much about the AfD but you don't usually think of extreme rightists as having female leaders, much less lesbians.
Interestingly she also worked for a year as an analyst for Goldman Sachs in Germany
From "Germany Looks to Stop the Far Right From Assuming Power/Mainstream parties are changing laws to protect government institutions. Critics say the changes risk undermining democracy" (NYT)(free access link).
"We're so worried about 'fascists' taking over our government that we're making it more powerful and more fascist!"
There's two possibilities here:
1: The people doing this are stupid, and think it will never be turned on them
2: The people doing this are horribly corrupt, and planning on stealing the upcoming elections to keep themselves in power
If I weren't already a big fan of AfD, this would make me one
Steve said...
If Biden loses in November, I will not be at all surprised if Sotomayor "suddenly retires for health reasons" and be quickly replaced in December.
If the Democrats try to pull that, I will not be at all surprised if enough Democrat Senators get killed so as to keep them from being able to ram through her lame-duck replacement.
The GOP did a whirlwind replacement when RBG passed
RBG died, so the GOP, which controlled both he Presidency and the Senate, replaced her. Before the election, not after it in a sleazy lame-duck move.
It's time for another round of "stupid ops dishonest?"
Which are you?
loudogblog said...
"Another would allow civil servants to be dismissed based on SUSPECTED ties to extremists, placing the burden of proof on employees rather than the state...."
Obviously, the people supporting this are extremists. Thus when AfD takes over, they can fire ALL the gov't bureaucrats who opposed the AfD, on the quite reasonable grounds that opposition to AfD is proof of "extremism".
Remember that the Senators elected in November 2024 are not seated until January 2025 so the current divisions would remain in play until then.
Funny how Our Democracy™ always means Only We Get To Run Things.
Darkisland said...
"Howard said...
Only a hyperpussy would call the US a fascist state
Have you ever read mussolini, Howard?"
This is Howards attempt to draw attention to himself and feel like an alpha.He needs to read more history. Howard Zinn doesn't count.
Speaking of Howard Zinn. How much of a believer in the communist cause do you have to be to rewrite American history along the lines of dialectical materialism?
Kieth @ 9:14
Then America happened. Except for the gun being slightly more powerful the T34 was the equal of the Sherman. Russian crews preferred the Sherman because it was more comfortable. If it wasn't for lend lease Russia would have lost.
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