December 3, 2023

The NYT headline about Trump's Cedar Rapids speech is so close to WaPo's headline that I was afraid for a moment that I'd mistakenly attributed the NYT headline to WaPo...

... when I put up this post an hour ago.

The WaPo headline you see at that post is: "Trump attempts to spin anti-democracy, authoritarian criticism against Biden."

The NYT headline is "Trump’s Defense to Charge That He’s Anti-Democratic? Accuse Biden of It"

Subheadlines:
WaPo: "The former president declared his 2024 campaign as a ‘righteous crusade’ against ‘tyrants and villains.'" 
NYT: "Indicted over a plot to overturn an election and campaigning on promises to shatter democratic norms in a second term, Donald Trump wants voters to see Joe Biden as the bigger threat."

I don't think this was a new theme for Trump. He's been saying things like this since the election results were first reported. You could just as well say that his opponents have been responding to him. Who made the first claim that the other side's position is anti-democratic and who first responded by saying — I'm paraphrasing — I'm rubber you're glue?

Who is the real champion of democracy here? What a dull question! You have 2 candidates trying to win an election. Where is the substance that matters to real people? No one thinks that democracy works perfectly or that the candidates are choosing arguments about democracy based on idealistic principles about democracy.

137 comments:

Sebastian said...

"The NYT headline about Trump's Cedar Rapids speech is so close to WaPo's headline"

Prog groupthink on display.

"Where is the substance that matters to real people?"

Where is the evidence that "substance" matters to real people? For example, does substance mattering require that people know anything about it?

"No one thinks the democracy works perfectly or the candidates are choosing arguments about democracy based on idealistic principles about democracy."

But the issue is not the issue. "Our democracy" is just another tool. And lots of nice women like to think they vote based on idealistic principles.

Money Manger said...

The Kagan piece (which seems to be ungated at the RealClearPolitics link) is a masterful polemic. He starts with a reasonable assumption, Trump has the nomination locked up, and then step by step, degree by degree, subtly redefining terms, quietly introducing the dead German guy, arrives at the conclusion that a dictatorship is all but inevitable. He hints that a radical move must be made to stop it or the US is doomed.
A good Sunday morning intellectual exercise—dissecting the false arguments, spotting the rhetorical tricks.

wendybar said...

So the Progressive talking points are out, and as usual, they are liars. They always accuse others of what they are guilty of doing themselves, and the media is joke....the mouthpiece of the Progressive idiots who hate America and is Cloward and Pivening us to death.

rhhardin said...

The real argument is about structural stability. Which side will kick away the constraints that keep the system from collapsing into something entirely different.

Generally the conservatives are pro-constraint and the woke are pro-feelings instead.

tim in vermont said...

Trump is pushing back on our dishonest spin! No fair!

Of course it was in insurrection, and just because we then changed the law to make what Trump was trying to do retroactively illegal, don't try and spin that either! It's authoritarian to question ex post facto laws that the Democrats are using against Trump, authoritarian and anti Democratic... oops, I didn't mean to use that capital 'D' there, but don't go pouncing and claiming that this was some kind of Freudian slip!

And another thing1 We are certain that the Electoral Count Act is constitutional, even if it goes against the plain text of the Constitution!

Dave Begley said...

The Left thinks alike. Heretics and dissidents are not allowed.

Dave Begley said...

Althouse, “Where is the substance that matters to real people? ”

This is one of the reasons why I support Vivek. The most detailed and specific plans on issues that matter to real people.

Gunner said...

If Trump was really half as authoritarian as they say, he would have executed his lowlife niece years ago.

wendybar said...

"NYT: "Indicted over a plot to overturn an election and campaigning on promises to shatter democratic norms in a second term,"


Hillary Clinton did that when she lied and paid for Russian Collusion hoax. THAT was the real coup. That and J6 which Pelosi had a part in the planning.

MadTownGuy said...

Doesn't this look like a talking points memo to the news outlets?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Trump has a fantastic ability to get under the Left’s skin and expose their scams. The NYT really believes if they wave their hands vigorously enough, like a blow-up man outside a muffler shop, the reader will overlook Biden’s tyrannical banana republic behavior. It’s fascinating in a sick way.

Gusty Winds said...

Since Joe Biden took the oath of office knowing full well he was installed via voter fraud, seems pretty clear he is and enemy of democracy. So are the NYTs and WaPo.

Trump is their enemy. He's not an enemy of Democracy. When he took the oath of office, he actually won the election.

Dogma and Pony Show said...

I don't understand what Trump has done that fits the traditional understanding of "authoritarian." Biden's approach to governance is obviously more authoritarian and anti-democratic. Issuing executive orders and regulations that not only aren't supported by, but in some cases are in defiance of, existing laws is pretty un-democratic, IMO. Biden's serial, unconstitutional attempts to forgive student loans and his refusal to enforce immigration laws are just two examples. Prosecuting rival political opponents is pretty authoritarian, pretty anti-democratic. Working with big tech to censor information that's contrary to administration narratives is also both authoritarian and anti-democratic. Refusing to prosecute people who engaged in ILLEGAL harassment of Supreme Court justices and their families is another example.

Do the NYT and WaPo really want to have this debate??

Iman said...

The Death of “Journolism”.

Munchkins of Manhattan and Wastrels of Washington DC…

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

12/3/23, 8:46 AM
Blogger Gusty Winds said...
Since Joe Biden took the oath of office knowing full well he was installed via voter fraud, seems pretty clear he is and enemy of democracy. So are the NYTs and WaPo.

Trump is their enemy. He's not an enemy of Democracy. When he took the oath of office, he actually won the election.


12/3/23, 8:47 AM

Joe bragged about the Democrat's voter fraud organization just before the 2020 election. He also implicates the Light Bringer in the voter fraud operation for 2008 and 2012 elections.

rastajenk said...

The Journ-O-List from two decades ago is strong as ever.

Rich said...

I support Trump’s willingness to go to prison to save America.

Dude1394 said...

Let's see,

Biden's DOJ - Has imprisoned THOUSANDS with not bail hearing and in solitary confinement for years. On basically a trespassing charge. While the DOJ refuses to provide the video evidence that might clear them.
Biden's DOJ -- Has used esoteric legal cases to try and incarcerate his leading political opponents. NOT just Donald Trump either.

The other is being persecuted by lawfare and a corrupt justice system.

BUT NYTimes Pravda and Washington Post People's Daily warn that Trump is the tyrant.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

NYT and WaPoo - Democrat Party toilet paper.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Trump’s very fearlessness scares the bejeebus out of the Media. They are not able to bully him with their editorials so they label him a bully. They are not successful in driving down his support so they label his supporters extremist. His insouciance inflames their hatred.

Original Mike said...

I don't think I'll ever get over the rabid partisanship of organs like the NYT and WaPo. In the headlines! I'm old school, I guess.

narciso said...

Charles Mccarry had a vision of trump, as franklyn mallory, back in the late 70s, the Better angels, a pragmatic businessman, who angered the progs most heinously,

boatbuilder said...

"Who is the real champion of democracy here?"

Who (which "side") is actively seeking to criminalize and jail its political opponents?

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Rich supports Maddow, NBC, lies, fake charges, political intimidation, and Soviet gulags.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

I support Trump’s willingness to go to prison to save America.

If irony was not already dead you’d realize how true this statement is.

Bob Boyd said...

It didn't take long for "Hope and Change" to become "Lower your expectations and defend the status quo at all costs."

Michael K said...

The party that imprisons their opposing party members accuses them of "threatening democracy." My irony meter just broke.

Rich said...

Mike (MJB Wolf) wrote: “Trump has a fantastic ability to get under the Left’s skin and expose their scams.”

Yes, and as we've seen, Trump in power brings his own rotten system with him, except this time it will be 10x before, given the preparation. His key objectives; avoidconviction, line his and his cronies pockets, and of course the opportunity to once again strut and peacock the world stage, leaving disaster in his wake.

JAORE said...

We had four years of Trump and, now 3+ years of Biden.

Any real look at what the two did would conclude Biden is the authoritarian, danger to democracy. Just some of these are outlined above.

But as far as, "No one thinks that ... the candidates are choosing arguments about democracy based on idealistic principles about democracy", you are blind to the huge number of LIVs that live and die on Tic Toc and similar sources..

There are massive numbers of people buying into the relentless, almost universal hammering about the threat of Trump.

Gunner said...

I finally read Kagans screed and it was even more ridiculous than I assumed. He is more optimistic of Trump's success than Trump. As if having the entire media except for Fox would deprive Democrats of their propaganda.

Ann Althouse said...

“ But the issue is not the issue. …”

Yeah, that was my point.

hombre said...

rhhardin (8:20) offers an opportunity for extrapolation: We are nearly down to "woke" and "conservatives."

"Woke" are the nutters and those who enable the nuttiness, regardless of motive. "Conservatives" are those who stand for sanity.

Bruce J. Russell, Sr. said...

LBJ killed JFK

Drago said...

LLR-democratical Ric/C****: "Yes, and as we've seen, Trump in power brings his own rotten system with him, except this time it will be 10x before, given the preparation. His key objectives; avoidconviction, line his and his cronies pockets, and of course the opportunity to once again strut and peacock the world stage, leaving disaster in his wake."

LOL

As if the last 8 years never happened at all!

Trump exposed the corrupt and rotten dem/GOPe uniparty system.

The combined dem/GOPe corrupt, authoritarian, republic destroying Lawfare schemes need to be defeated.

Trump is the ONLY president in modern times to sacrifice income and personal gain during and after his presidency.

Trump's economic gains for all societal quintiles and demographic groups is undeniable and required a now clearly exposed purposeful global pandemic to be unleashed to defeat him.

Congratulations Rich! Your 100% pathetic gaslighting LLR-democratical lies are now truly pegged at gadfly-"quality" levels and put you dangerously close to LLR-democratical lonejustice status!

narciso said...

he learned nothing from his father, the esteemed classicist, kagan who made short work of thucydides

hombre said...

Trump and Elon Musk are the enemies of the enemies of the people.

The mediaswine must destroy them!

CapitalistRoader said...

WaPo, last September:

Biden called Trumpism ‘semi-fascism.’ The term makes sense, historically.
President Biden has taken a firm stance on the modern-day threat of fascism: “It’s not just Trump, it’s the entire philosophy that underpins the — I’m going to say something — it’s like semi-fascism.” Biden made this key remark in a speech in Rockville, Md., while launching a push toward the midterm elections. While he stressed the violent nature of Trumpism and its threat to democracy, he was vague about the specifics of what he identified as half-baked American fascism. In fact, when he was later asked to clarify what he meant by fascism, he answered, “You know what I mean.”

farmgirl said...

“… quietly introducing the dead German guy, arrives at the conclusion that a dictatorship is all but inevitable.”

Yeah. Disregard Trump’s little problem, though.

Other than that- total dictator material. That’s why Conservatives love him so much.

You know- Conservatives? The gun people?

n.n said...

A constitutional republican form of government that affirms individual rights and mitigates authoritarian progress... if you can keep it from evolving into a democratic/dictatorial duality.

n.n said...

JournoLism. Fascism is the marriage of authority and corporation in a parade marching against the People and our [unPlanned] Posterity.

The Crack Emcee said...

Unless you read those things, I don't read those things.

mezzrow said...

"No one thinks that democracy works perfectly or that the candidates are choosing arguments about democracy based on idealistic principles about democracy."

That's their story, and they're sticking to it. What are we going to do about it, after all?

The absurdity is the point. Realizing that feeling the absurdity is when you feel the trap, most people begin to think another way to feel better about life. This is a reasonable response.

Mason G said...

"Congratulations Rich! Your 100% pathetic gaslighting LLR-democratical lies are now truly pegged at gadfly-"quality" levels and put you dangerously close to LLR-democratical lonejustice status!"

He's an idiot. Did you expect otherwise?

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Bidenism = fascist mobsterism.

kwo said...

"Biden's approach to governance is obviously more authoritarian and anti-democratic. Issuing executive orders and regulations that not only aren't supported by, but in some cases are in defiance of, existing laws is pretty un-democratic, IMO."

I agree that Pres. Biden's executive orders and administrative rulings are undemocratic and wrong. But Pres. Trump employed the same tactics. Building "the wall", selectively banning immigrants from Muslim nations, imposing trade restrictions on China, etc. Perhaps you agree with Trump's goals (I agree with many of them), the fact is he employed the same methods as Biden and Obama.

Joe Smith said...

"If Trump is elected he'll throw all of his enemies in jail and execute traitors!"

You don't have to sell me...

: )

Zavier Onasses said...

Thinking back through recent history, there is NO DOUBT about which side has by actual performance better upheld the laws of the United States of America - as sworn in the Presidential Oath.

But several quotes come to mind:

"Never let a crisis go to waste."

"I've got a pen and a phone."

"When the President does it, that means it is not illegal." (OK, but at least that guy had the self respect to resign.)

"It's my soap and my dick, and I'll wash it as long and as hard as I want." (OK, maybe he did not say that, but swimming nude in front of female Secret Service protectors....)

There are several other genuine Biden quotes expressing outright disdain for Federal Law and declaring intent to violate, but too depressing to remember. And, "At this point, what difference does it make?" Liars gonna lie, crooks gonna crook.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

I don't know what movie these so-called newspapers have been watching for the last 3 years.

The extra-authoritative restrictions imposed by Fauci's CDC and the unequivocal falling in line by the overwhelming majority of Americans, should tell anybody (anybody not parceling their work to AI) that the American people would very likely welcome an authoritative, indeed a Napoleonic president, in the face of an impotent Biden at home and a chaotic world stage.

Could it be that these headlines/stories are getting influenced/suffused by algorithms more interested in selling a box office bomb, than providing the White Nursing Home with the help they so desperately need?

Ken Mitchell said...

For corrupt Joe Biden and the Democraps to accuse Trump of being a fascist is 100% pure projection; accuse somebody else of ones own sins. Biden, Pelosi, and Schemer are the fascists, demanding unbridled power, in their desperate attempt to destroy America before Trump can save it.

The completely open border, importing MILLIONS of non-American "refugees" who are mostly young, military-aged men, with few women or children, and allowing the most violent and vicious people to run riot in our cities, CANNOT be the acts of people who love their country. If they somehow manage to steal the 2024 election, the result can only be civil war.

Trump isn't perfect, and never pretended to be. But Trump at least loves America, and Joe Briben only loves money.

Steve from Wyo said...

New York Times : "Trump, Trump, Trump, . . ." Washington Post : "Trump, Trump, Trump, . . ." CNN : "Trump, Trump, Trump, . . ." MSNBC : "Trump, Trump, Trump, . . .". etc.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

If ousting an elected representative and indicting the president's main opponent, with crimes they have to gag said main opponent, is not as Napoleonic as you can get, some people might as well be waiting for the unveiling of the guillotine where Trump, and other Biden traitors will be guests of honor. OMG.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

Via XTwitter: Here's what these anti-Trump headlines are really about.

Talk about a real journalist.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

More receipts via XTwitter

Mind you, Greenwald is all the way in fucking Brazil, that's how bad the stench is over here.

(If I'm using the F bomb a lot is because I've been gorging on Norm videos. Whenever Norm would do subscription radio interviews, or podcasts, Norm would sprinkle F bombs in quick succession, probably impersonating someone I fail to recognize.)

rcocean said...

Biden is trying to put Trump, his political opponent - and ex-POTUS - in jail over bogus charges over "documents" and J6 "incitement". He locked down DC for 3 months in 2021 and had the capital and white House surrounded by 15,000 NG Troops. Biden has has applauded the captial police who deliberately killed 4 Trump protestors, and giving a medal to Lt. byrd who murdered Ashli babbitt in cold blood.

And Biden's DOJ is STILL putting J6 protesters in Jail for merely walking through an open door or being on "restricted grounds".

But Trump is the authoritarian! The Liberal Establishment screams "WE support Democracy" while they imprison their opposition and censor opposing voices. And supporting efforts to debar Attornies who worked for Trump.

gadfly said...

Althouse asks: "Who is the real champion of democracy here?"

The obvious answer is "Not the guy who did business frequently with Mafioso “Fat Tony” Salerno of the Genovese crime family."

Temujin said...

Why it's almost as if they have someone telling them what to write.

rehajm said...

You thought you attributed the NYT headline to WaPo…but no curiosity re: why they are so similar? So much new material to hate Trump about yet…coincidentally, they wrote a near identical headline…but let’s move on to what they want us to think about…0

gilbar said...

how could ANY ONE suggest ?
that vowing to run the largest voter fraud organization in history was anti-democratic?
that Imprisoning Thousands of people without bail (and even without charge) for protesting was anti-democratic?
that spying on opponents was anti-democratic?
that "trumping up" false charges against opponents was anti-democratic?
that cancelling primaries in states was anti-democratic?

Rusty said...

Drago.
Rich makes his wild assertions. But when called on them he sudenly dissappears or deflects or both. He is incapable of debate.
"Yes, and as we've seen, Trump in power brings his own rotten system with him, except this time it will be 10x before, given the preparation.
Describe Trumps "rotten system". What is it?
"His key objectives; avoidconviction, line his and his cronies pockets,"
Show your work. Support this assertion. What cronies. Name names.
" and of course the opportunity to once again strut and peacock the world stage, leaving disaster in his wake."
The world was a lot more peaceful under his watch than either before or after.

James Fitzpatrick said...

So, Ann, are you going with Biden again?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Rich said, Trump would have the opportunity to once again strut and peacock the world stage, leaving disaster in his wake

If you believe that you should be able to provide at least one example of chaos Trump caused on the world stage that is as bad or worse than Biden’s Afghanistan withdrawal, Putin invading Ukraine (with Joe subsequently slow-walking any substantial assistance), the innumerable physical attacks on our warships and overseas troops by China and Iran, NoKo and China militarization of space etc.

Just one boondoggle that happened on the World Stage during Trump’s term? What “disasters” were in his wake?

Greg the Class Traitor said...

WaPo, last September:

Biden called Trumpism ‘semi-fascism.’ The term makes sense, historically.



"Fascism" was so named because of the latin word Fasces, which is a bundle of stick, made strong because they're bound together.

The "sticks" that fascism "bound together" were labor, corporations, and the government. The "binding" was done by the Fascist party.

The modern Democrats, with their "corporate public partnerships" and joining in the labor unions, all bound together by the Democrat Party, are the American Fascists.

Democrats calling Trump a fascist is just more left wing projection of their evils on others

Kai Akker said...

--- he learned nothing from his father, the esteemed classicist, kagan who made short work of thucydides [narciso]

One of the late Donald Kagan's Classics courses is a steady offering on Yale Open Courses, available free.

https://oyc.yale.edu/classics/clcv-205

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Dogma and Pony Show said...
I don't understand what Trump has done that fits the traditional understanding of "authoritarian."

That's because Trump is pretty much the least authoritarian President we've had in 40+ years.

Compare he Biden Admin mandates, orders, etc, to what Trump did on Covid. Trump addressed the US borders, and created Federal resources that the States could chose to use (Operation Warp Speed). Other than that he left it to the States to chose what to do.

Now, he was a total fuckup for keeping Fauci and firing Scott Atlas, and his support for lockdowns was stupid and pathetic, but compared to what any other Democrat or Republican President has done given far less opportunity, Trump pretty much set teh gold standard for "not authoritarian" in his response to Covid.

Would a re-elected president Trump try to use the DoJ against his enemies they way the Biden Admin has done? Sure. but he'd fail. Because Trump is utterly incompetent at hiring people who will carry out his agenda, and he can't just go over to the DoJ and run all the prosecutions himself.

So Trump might fire some people, but the ones he replaces them with will be either more Deep State scum bags, like Gen Miley or Fauci, or else total incompetents who's only actual talent is sucking up to Trump, all of who will have their Deep State "subordinates" running rings around him.

You know, just like what happened in his first term.

If you actually want the bad guys defeated, as opposed to wanting to wank to "Trump Tweets", you'll vote for someone competent, like DeSantis. (Oh, Drago, if you've actually done the research to "prove" that DeSantis's campaign is a bunch of GOPe scum, as opposed to read it somewhere and just accepted it as Gospell, do share your research with us. Otherwise? You're full of shit). DeSantis, you see, has an actual team of people from his time as Governor of FL, that he can bring with him to assault the Deep State.

Anyone want to name the people Trump has who he can install at DoJ, or really anywhere, to actually take teh fight to the Deep State and win?

I'm sure GOPe first love Nikki Haley will do a great job for Trump!
/sarc

John henry said...

Will nobody here ever defend Joe Biden and his team against the charge that they are objectively "fascist"?

In the full meaning of Mussolini's ideology?

I take silence as meaning that agreement.

John Henry

John henry said...

Or perhaps come at it from another direction:

Perhaps someone can explain how Biden and his team, and progressives generally are not "fascist" in the meaning of Mussolini's ideology

C'mon. Take a shot at it.

John Henry

Christopher B said...

kwo said...
Trump employed the same tactics. .... selectively banning immigrants from Muslim nations..


Just picking one of your unsupported assertions...

On January 27, 2017, President Trump signed an executive order that banned travel to the United States for 90 days from seven predominantly Muslim countries–Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, and Yemen–and suspended the resettlement of all Syrian refugees

Notice both the weasel adjective 'predominantly' and the fact that the country with the largest Muslim population in the world, Indonesia is absent from the list.

The list was also generated by the Obama administration in 2015

As opposed to being an anomaly induced by Trump’s presidency, the ban was set in motion by Barack Obama’s administration. In December 2015, Obama signed into law the Visa Waiver Improvement Program and Terrorist Travel Prevention Act, which designated Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia as areas of concern.

John henry said...

Quite right and why the faces appears on money of the us. Independent countries (called "states") because the group is stronger than the individual sovereign states.

And quite right about mussolini fascism

The "sticks" that fascism "bound together" were labor, corporations, and the government. The "binding" was done by the Fascist party.

And all controlled by the state or govt as you mention. Ostensibly for the benefit of society.

The classic definition of "socialism".

And why, despite the deniers here and elsewhere, "fascism" is a Socialist ideology. The deniers are basically pig ignorant of what mussolini's Fascist was about.

John Henry

wildswan said...

I read an Israeli blog which called the October 7 attack a "Shattering." Not a shattering blow but a "Shattering," a shattering of a social outlook. And I think that it must be the same for American Jewish politicians and think tank strategists like the Trump-hating Kagan family. Only they may not have grasped the dimensions of the change and so they try to go on as before like a concussed football player. She then pointed vaguely at the newly organized Congressional Jewish Caucus which intends to mobilize people of good will to confront the danger of anti-semitism in our politics - especially the newly discovered antisemitism on the left. Led by:

Jerry Nadler
Adam Schiff
Debbie Wasserman Schultz

WTF

Mike of Snoqualmie said...


Blogger kwo said...
...

I agree that Pres. Biden's executive orders and administrative rulings are undemocratic and wrong. But Pres. Trump employed the same tactics. Building "the wall", selectively banning immigrants from Muslim nations, imposing trade restrictions on China, etc. Perhaps you agree with Trump's goals (I agree with many of them), the fact is he employed the same methods as Biden and Obama.

12/3/23, 10:34 AM

Trump had the authority via different methods to build the wall. He had the army corps of engineering due its training by building the wall. The immigration laws give the President complete power on deciding who can immigrate and who cannot. When Democrats challenged his actions in Federal court and obtained an injunction, he complied with the injunction and appealed it. He mostly won the appeals.

Trump had the law behind his actions, Biden just ignored the law and did what his masters wanted done. Biden's actions (nat gas stove ban, water heater requirement, ceiling fan restrictions, etc.) make life worse for everyone except his masters.

tim in vermont said...

Which administration opened investigations on every twitter user who liked or retweeted tweets from the leader of the opposition party? I mean that sounds pretty authoritarian to me.

Which administration has created a "Cyber Threat Intelligence League" and has trained them in disinformation techniques, not to counter it, but to use these techniques, and in the government training of of these operatives, expressed admiration for how Turkey managed to shift the blame for a particular bombing to the other side through disinformation, and has trained law enforcement in the kinds of psy-ops that the CIA uses abroad, and is precluded from using in the US on its own citizens?

I will give you three guesses, but don't bother wasting one on Trump, because it wasn't him.

Here, read for yourself what authoritarianism and anti-democratic actions really look like:

1. #CTIFiles3
SOCKPUPPETS AND SPIES
In the #CTIFiles written about today by @shellenberger and @galexybrane, anti-disinformation warriors and officials offer instruction on COINTELPRO-style spy tactics, against a target they knew was forbidden – the American public

Michael K said...

"Rich"

Trump in power brings his own rotten system with him, except this time it will be 10x before, given the preparation. His key objectives; avoidconviction, line his and his cronies pockets, and of course the opportunity to once again strut and peacock the world stage, leaving disaster in his wake.

"Rich " has never gotten over Trump moving the official Israel embassy to Jerusalem.

Jim at said...

Again, if we only had a four-year sample size of all these awful things Trump is going to do if he wins the election.

If only ...

Skeptical Voter said...

Money Manger at 818 talks about an interesting Sunday morning intellectual exercise dissecting the false arguments and spotting the rhetorical tricks of the writer.

Now that can be dangerous. I did that our New Light Worker's "greatest speech evah on race relations"---lots of false arguments, rhetorical tricks, non sequiturs etc--and was accused by my oh so liberal sister of engaging in "cheap lawyer tricks".

Well not quite--I was an expensive lawyer back in the day, and had spent a lifetime analyzing documents. Spotting the hokum and bunkum in an Obama speech was child's play.

Ampersand said...

I'm less worried about the univocal MSM (old news!, sad to say) than I am about the prospect of a nation led by either Biden or Trump until 2029.
Sure, Trump is less bad than Biden, but he has obvious flaws of personality and judgment, and he unites the Dems as nobody ever has, or ever will. And the Dems, if united, have the power to destroy the nation, even when they don't have the White House.
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism, when it is the Democrats who dissent.

Bring back Calvin Coolidge.

John henry said...

Greg,

You said unions and I agree. But it goes beyond that, it is control of all labor, unionized or not.

A recent example is Biden admins attack on gig workers. Formally independent contractors.

Forcing them to become legally "employees" allows the state (federal and local) a lot of control over workers and employers

All for the benefit of the social order, don'chaknow.

John Henry

Rocco said...

Money Manger said...
"The Kagan piece (which seems to be ungated at the RealClearPolitics link) is a masterful polemic. He starts with a reasonable assumption, Trump has the nomination locked up, and then step by step, degree by degree, subtly redefining terms, quietly introducing the dead German guy, arrives at the conclusion that a dictatorship is all but inevitable. He hints that a radical move must be made to stop it or the US is doomed.
A good Sunday morning intellectual exercise—dissecting the false arguments, spotting the rhetorical tricks.
"

Well, much like today's Democrats and Progressive Leftists, Bismark did believe in a strong technocratic elite that served the interests of the elite clas-- oh, not that dead German guy.

pacwest said...

DeSantis, you see, has an actual team of people from his time as Governor of FL, that he can bring with him to assault the Deep State.

That is a good argument. My assumption in supporting Trump is that he is capable of learning from his mistakes. And I acknowledge I may be mistaken on that front. However to shift my allegiance I need to be sure he is willing to take on the same foriegn policies in the same manner as Trump. Are he and his team willing to take on China trade imbalances full throttle? Is he capable of the type of brilliance Trump showed by bombing Syrian/Russian airfields while having dinner with Xi? Remain in Mexico? Is he capable of not presignaling his moves like the previous morons in the WH for four decades? I would probably prefer DeSantis domestically but what his foreign policy is still a cipher to me.

How hard is he willing to fight the Globalists??

Drago said...

Greg: "If you actually want the bad guys defeated, as opposed to wanting to wank to "Trump Tweets", you'll vote for someone competent, like DeSantis. (Oh, Drago, if you've actually done the research to "prove" that DeSantis's campaign is a bunch of GOPe scum, as opposed to read it somewhere and just accepted it as Gospell, do share your research with us. Otherwise? You're full of shit)."

I have named them all a hundred times and why not? They happily and publicly supported Team Ron. There are no hidden people. For DeSantis funders and staff they and their GOPe policy preferences have been well established for 7+ years.

That you still pretend this is sone dark mystery at this late date shows you are the one full of shite.

Never Back Down has collapsed. Team Rove has headed for hills. Paul Ryan is scurrying over to Haley's crew now that its become clear Ron isnt measuring up.

If you are trying to get us all to believe that you have no idea any of this is going on, or went on, or began so, then that would indeed explain the political "analysis" "quality" of many of your campaign related posts.

Haley has caught Ron for second in Iowa, Ron has dropped to 4th in New Hampshire and a distant 3rd in South Carolina. Ron trails Trump by what in Florida? 30?

Do you even have any understanding at all what the delegate thresholds are for each primary state where its winner take all or winner take most?

Sorry if the "facts on the ground" are simply too much for you.

But again, not to worry. I still believe your dem/GOPe lawfare team will eventually be successful in removing Trump, so be of good cheer!

Good news for you could be just around the corner!

Tofu King said...

I'm not sure if these pundits are completely unhinged or are just ramping up the crazed rhetoric because all they, and the crooked prosecutors,have done does not seem to be working.
I get that progressives really, really hate Trump (even though he is not that conservative), but do they really believe this absurd rhetoric? I mean he was president for 4 years and did not ship people to concentration camps and left office when his legal challenges fell short. They need to get a grip.

tim in vermont said...

Populism is the political affiliation of the breeders of cannon fodder, which is why it must be suppressed at al costs in the view of people like Kagan. It's hard to mobilize armies when the people getting mobilized have a political voice.

RMc said...

I don't understand what Trump has done that fits the traditional understanding of "authoritarian."

When you hate someone, they automatically become everything you hate.

Moondawggie said...

Lem the artificially intelligent said (11:53 AM): "Norm would sprinkle F bombs in quick succession, probably impersonating someone I fail to recognize."

Obviously you didn't spend much time aboard USN ships. That linguistic technique perfectly describes about 500 Navy Chiefs and Marine Gunnies I ran into way back when...

BUMBLE BEE said...

Dov Fischer says Trump is a Philosemite...

https://spectator.org/on-trump-kanye-biscuit-jews-and-dinners/

NOT a Nazi.

rcocean said...

Appling the word "Authoritarian" for American politicians is moronic. It was never used much before in Domestic USA politics, and only became popular as an insult label for Trump.

It makes no more sense than blathering about how you're "supporting Democracy" by attacking Trump or the Republicans.

Of course, the Right always falls into the trap, and uses the liberal/left vocabulary.

rcocean said...

WHen Obama issued an executive order for DACA om 2013, Mittens said nothing. When Trump wanted to use DOD money to build a border wall, Mittens said it was "an authoritarian measure that upsets the balance of power between the branches" and joined the D's in voting against it.

Mittens = always a fake and full of bullshit.

Mason G said...

"They need to get a grip."

If they were able to get a grip, they wouldn't be progressives.

rcocean said...

Last comment: The most "authoritarian" president we had since 1865 was FDR. This guy violated so many laws and civil liberties its hard to list them. If 1/2 of the shit he pulled had been known to the Congress and USA public he would've been impeached. Like letting british Intelligence go after Isolationists before December 41, or bypassing the FBI and contacting the Soviet NKVD and telling them about our counter-intelligence plans.

FDR also got together with Henry Morgenthau and approved a plan to destroy all German Industry and German coal mines in September 44. He kept this secret from everyone, but it eventually leaked and after the outrage, FDR was forced (since it was an election year) to pull back and publically disavow.

FDR was mad as hell that someone had leaked it, and told the US public and Congress what he was doing. Later, he and Morgethau came up with another way to punish Germany that wasn't so blatent and obvious.

Now, that's "Authoritarian" although I've never read a book that calls FDR that.

Drago said...

pacwest: "How hard is he (DeSantis) willing to fight the Globalists??"

First, consider that in Congress DeSantis strongly supported TPP and giving obambi fast track authority to execute the plan
..just like Paul Ryan wanted DeSantis to do.

Then, when pondering the DeSantis primary campaign, ask Ken Griffin or Rupert Murdoch or Jeff Roe or Ken Cuccinelli what the DeSantis globalist policy support plan would be.......

You'll get your answer.

Aggie said...

"The obvious answer is "Not the guy who did business frequently with Mafioso “Fat Tony” Salerno of the Genovese crime family." Sez Gadfly

I don't know anything about that - was there a criminal charge or indictment? On the other hand, I know a couple of guys that got some really fat, fat business deals in real estate. One got some steep discounts from the duPont family for a mansion, and the other did some questionable deals in Chicago with some gangster named Resko, something about loans forgiven, deep discounts, and so on. It's funny how friends can sell things like real estate dirt cheap from time to time - if you're a friend. Can you tell us about that? And by all means fill us in on the crime family stuff too, I'm fascinated.

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

The NY Slimes and the WaPoo got the same smoke signal today to authoratarian Trump, so that's what they did. It was probably the Light Bringer who sent out the smoke signal. When the Light Bringer commands "Jump!", the Mushroom Media Conspiracy don't ask "How high?", they just cravenly comply and rush a story into publication. That's why those two stories feel the same.

Chris said...

Mike(MJB Wolf)

Just one boondoggle that happened on the World Stage during Trump’s term? What “disasters” were in his wake?

Easy peasy…. Hillary didn’t get to move into the White House and make millionaires of all of her cronies

Greg the Class Traitor said...

pacwest said...
Me: DeSantis, you see, has an actual team of people from his time as Governor of FL, that he can bring with him to assault the Deep State.

That is a good argument. My assumption in supporting Trump is that he is capable of learning from his mistakes.


What is the team of people Trump has collected around himself during the last 3 years, in preparation for his next term? Anyone?

Hell, has Trump ever public said, "I made a bunch of mistakes, here they are", and then provided a list?

I thought Ric Grendel did a good job when working for Trump. I can't think of a single other Trump appointee for which that is true.

Who does he now have surrounding him that you think is good?

However to shift my allegiance I need to be sure he is willing to take on the same foriegn policies in the same manner as Trump. Are he and his team willing to take on China trade imbalances full throttle?

DeSantis signs bills banning Chinese citizens from buying land in Florida: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/09/ron-desantis-bills-ban-chinese-citizens-buying-land-florida

DeSantis has shown a great deal of willingness to go after our enemies, be they big corporations (Disney) or foreign countries like China. As I keep on pointing out to Drago, you need to look at what people do, not what they say.

How hard is he willing to fight the Globalists??

He's gone hammer and tongs against Disney, a huge corporation with a lot of influence in Florida. He's sued cruise lines that tried to force "vaccine passports" on people while operating out of Florida.

He's not an establishment tool, he sees China as a US enemy. I expect globalist will hate his administration FAR more than a Trump Admin, because DeSantis will actually follow through

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Blogger Drago said...
Greg: "If you actually want the bad guys defeated, as opposed to wanting to wank to "Trump Tweets", you'll vote for someone competent, like DeSantis. (Oh, Drago, if you've actually done the research to "prove" that DeSantis's campaign is a bunch of GOPe scum, as opposed to read it somewhere and just accepted it as Gospell, do share your research with us. Otherwise? You're full of shit)."

I have named them all a hundred times and why not? They happily and publicly supported Team Ron. There are no hidden people. For DeSantis funders and staff they and their GOPe policy preferences have been well established for 7+ years.

That you still pretend this is sone dark mystery at this late date shows you are the one full of shite.


Yet you don't name them here. Interesting, that.

Never Back Down has collapsed. Team Rove has headed for hills. Paul Ryan is scurrying over to Haley's crew now that its become clear Ron isnt measuring up.

No, Paul Ryan is heading for Nikki because he figured out that DeSantis will never be a GOPe tool, and Nikki will.

Haley has caught Ron for second in Iowa, Ron has dropped to 4th in New Hampshire and a distant 3rd in South Carolina. Ron trails Trump by what in Florida? 30?

I remember feeling really awesome heading into the 2022 elections, looking at all the polls.

I remember how that turned out, do you?

You are a fool and an ass if you rely on them.

In six weeks we have the IA caucuses. What's your prediction for them?
Here's mine: If Trump wins, it will be by less than 5% over DeSantis, but I think it's more likely that DeSantis will win.

Now: what is the Trump - DeSantis result after which you'll agree "the polls are shit, Trump really doesn't have those leads"?

Here's the RCP site:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/ia/2024_iowa_republican_presidential_caucus-8164.html

They say Trump is beating DeSantis by 30 (but with only 47% of the vote), and DeSantis is beating Nikki by 3 (so much for "tied")

As for New Hampshire? Ted Cruz, the best conservative in the race, got 11.6% in NH, after winning Iowa. I don't expect DeSantis to do well in NH, and I don't care.

No one in any other State is actually paying attention to the candidates right now. Which means the polls there are utterly worthless.


Now, if Trump wins IA and NH by 30%, the race is over. Heck, if he wins IA by 30%, I'll agree I was completely wrong. So step up, Drago, and tell us what results will blow your claims out of the water

Greg the Class Traitor said...

But Drago, I will just point out that when I list Trumps failures, you alternate between blaming them on the Democrats & GOPe, and just running away.

In fact, the only case I've ever seen you make for Trump here is that "Trump is ahead in the polls".

That's quite a big tell that even you understand that Trump sucks, is a failure, and will be one again, even if re-elected.


Which is why I switched to DeSantis: because I want victory, I want to defeat the Deep State and the GOPe, and Trump has displayed that he's not capable of doing it.

See: never removing Cristopher Wrap as head of the FBI

deepelemblues said...

I don't know how you can read Kagan's piece and think he is doing anything but calling for Trump's assassination with a clumsy stab at plausible deniability.

He first argues that Trump is Caesar and Hitler. He then meticulously details his belief that all methods of stopping him have failed, are failing, and will fail.

The list is near-exhaustive. The voters won't do it. Prosecution won't do it. Congress won't do it. The courts won't do it. The press won't do it. The Republican Party won't do it. The Democratic Party won't do it. State governors won't do it. The military won't do it. Riots won't do it.

Near-exhaustive. One method is not mentioned. It is very conspicuous by its absence. Equally conspicuous are the final lines, rueing the lack of fortitude to rid us of this troublesome orange man.

pacwest said...

@Greg

As I keep on pointing out to Drago, you need to look at what people do, not what they say.

If that were the only criteria I am more than happy to vote for Trump. I find your dismissal of Trump's accomplishments a knee jerk reaction similar to the never Trumpers.

Immigration: Results seemed pretty good to me. Even without the backing of his party, and irrational headwinds he faced from the "Tub of Goo" crowd he managed to get a permanent wall started. I thought his forcing Mexico to agree to the remain policy (which forced Mexico to start enforcing their own southern border) a clever strategy.

Energy: Hard to deny the domestic results he had there, but pulling us out of the idiotic Paris Accords was an easy plus. His energy policy had wider results than just making for cheap gas. There a lot foreign ramifications that people overlook.

Foreign policy: China was eating our (free) lunch before Trump. The interuppted tarriff war was long overdue imo. His pushback on Chinese intrusion in our institutions were many and varied. 30+ years of turmoil on the Palistine problem. Simple enough solution, just cut them out of the picture. Very Trumpian. Pull out of the JCPOA. I can't even begin to tell you how stupid that idea was. How he handled the Kurd/Turkey conflict. Even the Little Rocket Man kerfuffle had benifits. NATO. In short, getting us out of an outdated foreign policy mode rooted in a long past reality.

Financial policy: I've stated my misgivings about his lip service to fiscal conservatism many times here, but I did make a buttload of money in the equity market due to his policies (even though I was a year late to join the party). I'd give him a mixed bag rating on the results here, but there's no denying the economy he had.

Blog comments aren't the best place to discuss all the ins and outs of this. It generally devolves into a series of short jabs.

I don't hold the same disdain for DeSantis that Drago does, nor do I agree with your misplaced Trump hatred. My support for a candidate is based on what I view their policies and actions will do in the short and long term for myself, my family, and my country, and at present I remain committed to the person who was able to get us this far. I don't believe DeSantis would even be possible (meaning he wouldn't have been able to enter the national arena with his policies) without Trump paving the way.


Drago said...

Greg: "Which is why I switched to DeSantis: because I want victory, I want to defeat the Deep State and the GOPe, and Trump has displayed that he's not capable of doing it."

LOL

The DeSantis campaign IS the establishment and GOPe and deep state.

Every single DeSantis major funder (and thats all the funders DeSantis has since he lacks a broad grassroots base of regular low dollar givers) and insider backer/staffer opposes anyone and everyone who would take on the globalists/establshment/GOPe.

DeSantis was a Paul Ryan acolyte while in Congress and there's a reason that crew supports him...though they are now switching to Haley because Ron couldnt close the deal with the voters despite the Jeb! level support Ron started with.

Pro-tip: the candidates being backed by the establishment GOPe-ers and globalists will never seriously fight against those interests beyond more Failure Theater posturing.

And we already have plenty of that in DC with about half of our elected republicans.

pacwest said...

I want to add that I think that Drago's concerns about the uniparty are well founded.

Drago said...

pacwest: "I don't hold the same disdain for DeSantis that Drago does..."

I dont hold DeSantis in disdain.

I simply recognize what is...and that "is" is DeSantis has never and would never have the means to stand up to those that provided the means for his run.

As Ive asked for over 2 years but never getting an answer...for obvious reasons: How could DeSantis take in $2B plus from all the usual suapects and then tell them forget about it! I am going my own way!

Only a naive child could believe such a thing.

There is also no getting around the fact that the DeSantis run was conceived by those who fully expected the lawfare tactics to have long ago already sunk Trump and DeSantis would have stepped in as the savior of the party.

It just didnt work out that way...and no surprise given the DC insider "braintrust" running things over there.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg: "Which is why I switched to DeSantis: because I want victory, I want to defeat the Deep State and the GOPe, and Trump has displayed that he's not capable of doing it."

LOL

The DeSantis campaign IS the establishment and GOPe and deep state.


You keep on saying that, but keep on providing no proof, or even evidence, for it.

Since you're the chump who believed Hochol when she claimed she was going to appoint a new Representative, I'm not going to take your word for that, and neither will anyone else sane.

So, what's your proof for that claim, with links we can evaluate ourselves?

Every single DeSantis major funder (and thats all the funders DeSantis has since he lacks a broad grassroots base of regular low dollar givers) and insider backer/staffer opposes anyone and everyone who would take on the globalists/establshment/GOPe.

You pathetic moron. DeSantis signed a law banning Chinese nationals from buying land in Florida. Which makes him someone who "takes on the globalists/establshment/GOPe".

And, unlike the wimp Trump, DeSantis went to war against Disney, while Trump pimped FOR Disney. Which is a pretty "establishment" move on Trump's part.


DeSantis was a Paul Ryan acolyte while in Congress and there's a reason that crew supports him...though they are now switching to Haley because Ron couldnt close the deal with the voters despite the Jeb! level support Ron started with.

What's that, Drago? All the people you claim show that DeSantis is just a globalist tool are moving to Nikki, the actual globalist / GOPe tool, because DeSantis refuses to play their game, and Nikki will?

So is the problem that you're a moron who can't follow reality? Or are you just another sad sack liar?

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Nice, Chris. Some do consider that disastrous.

Rusty said...

Mike @ 1:29
That's the problem we have here. You. Me. Others here are ready to debate. Support your side. Make a cogent argument and we can agree to disagree, but the progressives want to be taken at thier word and when you come back at them with concrete examples they're like, "Gotta go."

Greg the Class Traitor said...

pacwest said...
@Greg

As I keep on pointing out to Drago, you need to look at what people do, not what they say.

If that were the only criteria I am more than happy to vote for Trump. I find your dismissal of Trump's accomplishments a knee jerk reaction similar to the never Trumpers.


Immigration: Trump got repeatedly sabotaged by his appointees, or by Obama appointees that held over. See the SCOTUS 5-4 ruling blocking his EO repealing DACA, using as their excuse the crappy document "supporting" the EO that was written by an Obama holdover.
Trump's major success in immigration was that he scared a bunch of illegals to self-deport, or more to not bother to come.
But since he didn't follow through on 90% of what he threatened, they're not going to be scared next time


Energy: Yep, Drill baby Drill was a clear winner. Any reason why DeSantis wouldn't do the same?

Foreign policy: Yes, Trump did well there, any place where he could do it himself. OTOH, Miley completely sabotaged Trump's desire to pull out of Afghanistan, and Trump responded by giving Miley a "Presidential Commendation" shortly before leaving office.

Financial policy: Yep, he did his part to build a great economy. Then let Fauci nuke it, because he absolutely sucks at personnel

My point is this: I voted for Trump in 2020 because of the good and great things he did. I now despise him because over the last couple years it's come out just how much the Deep State was running free to sabotage everything

Like the FBI people who spent all of 2020 suppressing Hunter Biden's laptop, while working with social media companies to censor conservatives, and laying the groundwork for the suppression of the laptop's information when it did come out.

Pretty much ALL the social media suppression of conservative voices came from the Trump Admin. Because Trump sucks at personnel

Drago said...

Greg: "What's that, Drago? All the people you claim show that DeSantis is just a globalist tool are moving to Nikki, the actual globalist / GOPe tool, because DeSantis refuses to play their game, and Nikki will?"

No, you flipping moron.

Haley has overtaken DeSantis and and is seen as more electable than Ron. Just look at DeSantis' poll numbers in New Hampshire and South Carolina.

Its that simple.

Are you even paying attention? Have you been watching the complete collapse of Never Back Down?

Are you simply pretending to be this uninformed?

Drago said...

Greg: "You pathetic moron. DeSantis signed a law banning Chinese nationals from buying land in Florida. Which makes him someone who "takes on the globalists/establshment/GOPe"."

The only moron here is you.

As Ken Griffin himself said in the politico article from last year, the DeSantis funders were okay with DeSantis tinkering around the edges on some policies (wokies etc) but they expected DeSantis to go full bore back to 2015/16 on everything else.

You almost have to work at it to remain this oblivious.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
As Ive asked for over 2 years but never getting an answer...for obvious reasons: How could DeSantis take in $2B plus from all the usual suapects and then tell them forget about it! I am going my own way!

Of course you've gotten an answer, I've said so before, you've just refused to listen:


DeSantis will do that because:
1: He's already President at that point. he needs the voters in 4 years. He doesn't need those funders. An incumbent President doesn't have a problem raising money
2: He's now been governor of FL for 5 years. In that entire time he's governed as someone who's not a tool of the GOPe. Before the election, after the election, it doesn't matter.


So your claim that "of course he'd change that as President" is so delusional and contrary to reality that it's just plain stupid.

3: The people you claim he's going to be beholden to, are the same people you're now crowing about leaving him for Nikki, who actually IS a GOPe tool.

They backed DeSantis because they hate Trump, and DeSantis was the only person who could possibly beat him.

They left DeSantis because he refuses to be their tool, and Nikki is happy to be one

Drago said...

Greg: "You keep on saying that, but keep on providing no proof, or even evidence, for it."

This has been gone over time and time again for over 2 years, and you STILL dont know the DeSantis congressional record, the DeSantis Sea Island funder crew, and just who Jeff Roe and Ken Cuccinelli are.

Do you even remember the late season "tryout" in Dallas just 2 months ago between the DeSantis and Haley campaigns to convince the globalist donors which of them was best positioned to consolidate the anti-Trump voters?

They were literally competing head to head behind closed doors for the backing of the establishment globalist funders.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna119513

Next you'll be telling me the DeSantis congressional support for TPP and fasttrack authority was just a misunderstanding.

Drago said...

Greg: "DeSantis will do that because:
1: He's already President at that point. he needs the voters in 4 years. He doesn't need those funders."

LOL

No, he wont do that...because yes, he will still need those funders.

Your "assurances", GOPe backed, carry zero persuasiveness...which is why DeSantis cant even pull in a majority or even plurality of the non-Trump voters in the republican primary.

Drago said...

Greg: "They left DeSantis because he refuses to be their tool, and Nikki is happy to be one"

LOL

They backed away from DeSantis because, in the words of early DeSantis backer and Trump policy hater Rupert Murdoch, they smell a loser:

"The Murdochs are starting to lose faith in Ron DeSantis' chances of crushing Trump: 'They are transactional and can smell a loser a mile away'"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/the-murdochs-are-starting-to-lose-faith-in-ron-desantis-2023-7%3famp

Drago said...

Greg: "3: The people you claim he's going to be beholden to, are the same people you're now crowing about leaving him for Nikki, who actually IS a GOPe tool."

Moronic language.

I am not "crowing". However, unlike you, I AM noticing....

Drago said...

Greg: "My point is this: I voted for Trump in 2020 because of the good and great things he did. I now despise him because over the last couple years it's come out just how much the Deep State was running free to sabotage everything"

Yes, your dem/GOPe alliance was quite strong from 2015 on.

Congratulations.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg: "What's that, Drago? All the people you claim show that DeSantis is just a globalist tool are moving to Nikki, the actual globalist / GOPe tool, because DeSantis refuses to play their game, and Nikki will?"

No, you flipping moron.

Haley has overtaken DeSantis and and is seen as more electable than Ron. Just look at DeSantis' poll numbers in New Hampshire and South Carolina.


1: Isn't it amusing how Drago is no longer trying to push the "Haley is tied in IA" line. But not willing to admit he was wrong there?
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/ia/2024_iowa_republican_presidential_caucus-8164.html

2: DeSantis was never going to win NH, or even come close. Actual conservatives never do win NH. That's why Cruz got 11% of the vote there in 2016.

538 on Florida (RCP isn't bothering to track it, because it's too far away):
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-r/2024/florida/
Trump 55.6, DeSantis 20.2, Haley 6.6

RCP on South Carolina (Nikki was Governor of SC):
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/sc/2024_south_carolina_republican_presidential_primary-8124.html
Trump 49.3, Haley 18.8, DeSantis 10.5

Boy howdy, that Nikki Haley sure is kicking butt!
Not

RCP National:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2024/president/us/2024_republican_presidential_nomination-7548.html
Trump 61.1, DeSantis 13.3, Haley 10.2

So, even if you're stupid enough to believe the polls, they're not telling you that "Nikki's the best chance to beat Trump". Especially since if you look at who voters "second choice" is, for most DeSantis voters it's Trump, whereas for Haley voters more switch to DeSantis than Trump

The best link I found in the few seconds I have to look is this:
https://fairvote.org/new-ranked-choice-poll-examines-the-republican-presidential-field-after-second-debate/
In the early state sample, Trump leads with 43% of voters’ first choices. But in an RCV (Ranked Choice Vote, as in, if your candidate drops out, who would you support, keep on going until one candidate has > 50%) tabulation, Ron DeSantis earns a majority faster than Trump and comes out on top, 51-49% (within the poll’s margin of error).

I found this:
https://pro.morningconsult.com/trackers/2024-gop-primary-election-tracker (I had to save teh page source, then open that to get the data without paying)
Survey conducted Nov. 24-26, 2023, among 3,944 potential Republican primary voters, with an unweighted margin of error of +/-2 to 3 percentage points for responses shown.

DeSantis is the second choice of 40% of potential GOP primary voters who are supporting Trump, followed by 22% who would back Ramaswamy and 10% who would back Haley.
Roughly 3 in 10 potential Republican primary voters (29%) who do not support Trump as their first choice said he is their second choice, followed by 20% who said DeSantis, 16% who said Haley and 12% who said Ramaswamy.
One in 5 Trump supporters said they do not know where their loyalties would fall if Trump weren’t in the race, compared with 9% of those backing someone other than him.

So no, no one actually sane thinks that Nikki has a better chance of beating Trump than DeSantis does. If that was their criteria, they'd be staying with DeSantis

They're leaving because Nikki is a tool, and deSantis isn't

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg: "My point is this: I voted for Trump in 2020 because of the good and great things he did. I now despise him because over the last couple years it's come out just how much the Deep State was running free to sabotage everything"

Yes, your dem/GOPe alliance was quite strong from 2015 on.


So, Drago, what I see you writing is "sure, my guy is a loser who will get beat like a drum, but I'm supporting him anyway"!

WTF?

News flash, the "dem/GOPe alliance" is STILL beating Trump. Or else why did he back Ronna Romney McDonald for head of the RNC?

If Trump got re-elected, they'd still be strong, and still opposed to Trump. So, you're going to back the guaranteed loser, why? because you really like his tweets?

pacwest said...

Because Trump sucks at personnel

Nothing to do with the fact that he was a complete outsider to the DC machinery and had to rely on the insiders? And you're not going to get rid of the deepstate by firing a few top level officials. You do remember his attempt at an EO to allow firing of some echelons of civil servants right? Again, I'm taking this on faith, but given what have seen from the Trump team he is going to be a lot more prepared for that this time. And it's true that he will need to provide coattails. Something he didnt achieve enough of in '20 '22. And admittedly I'm completely perplexed by his support of Ronna McDaniels.

To the ongoing fight between you and Drago: You're not denying that a large majority of his donors are from the big money camp are you? Nor can you deny that Trump's money is coming from small donors I hope. That seems to be an indicator of how many votes each gets in the general.

You're statement that DeSantis is not going to be beholden to his donors after election seems a bit nonsensical to me.

Either way, Trump's nomination seems a forgone conclusion to me, character flaws and all. Hopefully you can find your way to vote for him in the general. Thanks for the discussion.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg: "DeSantis will do that because:
1: He's already President at that point. he needs the voters in 4 years. He doesn't need those funders."
LOL
No, he wont do that...because yes, he will still need those funders.


Really?

Then of course you can show lots of cases where DeSantis has sucked up to those people in FL, right?

After all, he "needed" them last year to win re-election, right?

So you should have no problem telling us about all the things DeSantis has done for the GOPe in Florida, right? I'll wait, patiently, for your items, with links to back them up

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg: "You keep on saying that, but keep on providing no proof, or even evidence, for it."

This has been gone over time and time again for over 2 years, and you STILL dont know the DeSantis congressional record, the DeSantis Sea Island funder crew, and just who Jeff Roe and Ken Cuccinelli are.


And you still haven't provided a single link. Yes, I know who Ken Cuccinelli is. Now, tell my why I thing the strong conservative is a bad guy and I should care that he's backing DeSantis.

Roe was the senior strategist and campaign manager for Cruz's 2016 presidential bid. Which makes him 1005 NOT GOPe, since the GOPe backed Trump over Cruz in 2016

So you're completely failing at proving "DeSantis is backed by globalist GOPe". You might want to try again on that one

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
They were literally competing head to head behind closed doors for the backing of the establishment globalist funders.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna119513


Woo hoo! An actual link! See, you can do it!

Of course, it's to NBC.

And all it says is "DeSantis went to big donors and asked them for money." Wow, I'm shocked! Even "shocked, shocked! There's fundraising going on in a political campaign!"


Now, here's your challenge, the thing you have to do in order to prove you're not some completely delusional nut:

Tell us what DeSantis promised them that is bad.

Oh, and did that group decide they were going to go with GOPe tool Haley, not with DeSantis? Gosh, wouldn't that indicate that she told them what they wanted to hear, and Ron didn't?

Since she really is a no hope candidate

Greg the Class Traitor said...

pacwest said...
Me: Because Trump sucks at personnel

Nothing to do with the fact that he was a complete outsider to the DC machinery and had to rely on the insiders?



No, it has everything to do with that.

But what it more has to do with is the fact that when they screwed him, he didn't fire them.

And we've seen lots of cases where DeSantis DOES fire people who won't get on board.

Again, I'm taking this on faith, but given what have seen from the Trump team he is going to be a lot more prepared for that this time.
Really? Please name three competent people he has around him that he can bring to DC and put in charge of something, and expect that they will push his vision successfully.

And it's true that he will need to provide coattails. Something he didnt achieve enough of in '20 '22. And admittedly I'm completely perplexed by his support of Ronna McDaniels.

Apparently she sucked up to him.

I had faith in Trump, too. I was happy to support his candidates in 2022.

But then they failed, horribly. And at least partly because Trump sat on his a$$ and didn't get out and campaign for them.

So I'm all out of "faith" where Trump is concerned

To the ongoing fight between you and Drago: You're not denying that a large majority of his donors are from the big money camp are you? Nor can you deny that Trump's money is coming from small donors I hope. That seems to be an indicator of how many votes each gets in the general.

I don't care where a candidate's money comes from, when I have a track record I can look at. I'm not a mind reader, and neither is Drago. So I don't believe that any of us can look into the hearts and minds of the donors, and determine why they're giving.

What I can look at is DeSantis's record. We've got 5 years of him as Governor of Florida. And what we've seen him do there is tell the Dems and the GOPe to take a flying leap.

You're statement that DeSantis is not going to be beholden to his donors after election seems a bit nonsensical to me.
Why? What's he done for them as Governor of Floria?

Either way, Trump's nomination seems a forgone conclusion to me, character flaws and all. Hopefully you can find your way to vote for him in the general. Thanks for the discussion.

It is my firm believe that the majority of people saying they'll vote for Trump in the Primary, and saying it because they're pissed off at the kangaroo courts, and want to show their displeasure.

In roughly 6 weeks we'll see hope people actually vote. Until then, there are no reasonable "forgone conclusions".

If Trump's the GOP nominee I'll vote for him next November. But I'll do it knowing that even if he wins, we're still screwed.
If DeSantis is the GOP nominee, I'll vote for him, and have some hope he might actually make things better

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg: "You keep on saying that, but keep on providing no proof, or even evidence, for it."

This has been gone over time and time again for over 2 years, and you STILL dont know the DeSantis congressional record, the DeSantis Sea Island funder crew, and just who Jeff Roe and Ken Cuccinelli are.


So, let's just review this, shall we?

Jeff Roe, as I posted above, was the 2016 campaign chair for Ted Cruz. When the fight came down to Cruz v Trump, the GOPe was saying "I'd rather lose [the 2016 General Election] with Trump than win with Cruz."

Then there's Ken Cuccinelli
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Cuccinelli
A self-described opponent of homosexuality, Cuccinelli in his position as Virginia Attorney General defended anti-sodomy laws and prohibitions on same-sex marriage. Cuccinelli rejects the scientific consensus on climate change, and in his position as Attorney General investigated climate scientists whom he accused of fraud. Characterized as an immigration hard-liner, Cuccinelli sought to prohibit undocumented immigrants from attending universities, repeal birthright citizenship, and force employees to speak English in the workplace.


Yes, Drago, please go on telling us about all these "horrible" DeSantis advisors. Because neither of these is even remotely GOPe

Drago said...

Greg: "So, Drago, what I see you writing is "sure, my guy is a loser who will get beat like a drum, but I'm supporting him anyway"!"

Yes, I'm sure you "see" lots of things that aren't there while ignoring things that are.

Maybe its a superpower of yours.

Drago said...

Greg: "News flash, the "dem/GOPe alliance" is STILL beating Trump. Or else why did he back Ronna Romney McDonald for head of the RNC?"

Because Ronna had a hard floor of at least 100 votes (out of 168 total in play) locked up that were never going to budge off her which was made clear by public commitments. I am not in Trump's brain but given his history he does not usually move publicly against a sure losing deal if there is zero upside or even rhetorical win.

It was a quite interesting that Harmeet got as many votes as she did and does signal there could be additional significant changes during the next election. We are in a multicycle change environment that doesnt flip overnight.

Your questions continue to betray a level of ignorance as to the reality of who the key players are, their history and what they want which is only matched by your absolute confidence in that gap-filled "knowledge" base.

Impressive.

Drago said...

Greg: "They're leaving because Nikki is a tool, and deSantis isn't"

Make sure to click your heels 3 times as you repeat your self-comforting mantra.

Drago said...

Greg: "So, even if you're stupid enough to believe the polls, they're not telling you that "Nikki's the best chance to beat Trump". "

I never said that was my belief.

Thats the belief of many of the globalist insiders that had DeSantis tap dancing in front of them in Oct in Dallas.

Maybe you should contact the DeSantis campaign team. You seem like you would be a perfect addition to that team. But you'd better hurry given how many Never Back Down-ers have already exited.

Drago said...

pacwest: "To the ongoing fight between you and Drago:..."

There is no fight between Greg and I.

There is a desperate fight between Haley and DeSantis for continued/expanded funding/support as the recognized most-electable anti-Trump.

There also appears to be a fight between Greg and understanding of just what the hell has been happening between the major players on the republican side for the last several primary campaign years...a fight Greg appears to be losing by default.

Drago said...

Greg, why dont you give us a rundown on Ken Cuccinelli's activities during the 2016 Republican Convention.

You know, long after Trump nailed down the nomination.

Then get back with us.

And kudos for waiting until December of 2023 before even bothering trying to research who is who.

You seem like an impressive self-starter.

Drago said...

FYI for Greggie: Never Back Down Pac swooped and was the mechanism for transferring the $82M in donations from the DeSantis Gov reelect campaign to the DeSsntis presidential campaign angering many of the grassroot donors who would not have donated at all if those donors knew the cash was going to be used to attack Trump.

Which is why the smaller donors dried up for DeSantis and he became more dependent on the globalist billionaires.

"Pro-DeSantis super PAC buoyed by billionaires, new records show
But some well-known donors who fueled DeSantis’ victories for governor are notably absent."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2023/08/01/ron-desantis-never-back-down-super-pac-money-donors-donald-trump/%3foutputType=amp

"PAC transfer draws ire of watchdogs
Jun 16, 2023 — Ron DeSantis' gubernatorial election campaign to Never Back Down Inc"

https://www.tallahassee.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tallahassee.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F2023%2F06%2F16%2Fdesantis-massive-82-5-million-pac-transfer-draws-ire-of-watchdogs%2F70317599007%2F

Apologies for the unwieldy links. I am on the move.

pacwest said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Nice try Pacwest but it’s hard to break that cycle of analysis. In this case Drago has the facts on his side. You can tell Ron D is trying to garner the same support as Nikki H because he’s adopted his own version of “chaos follows Trump around” instead of sticking to First Principles and criticizing Biden and the other Democrats for going Berea-Banana Republic on Trump. The only candidates still in the mix defending the rule of law are Vivek R and the Big Orange himself. Where the fuck is Ronna?

pacwest said...

I think you might be confusing me with Greg on this? Try reading the latter comments again.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
Nice try Pacwest but it’s hard to break that cycle of analysis. In this case Drago has the facts on his side. You can tell Ron D is trying to garner the same support as Nikki H because he’s adopted his own version of “chaos follows Trump around”

News flash: Chaos DOES follow Trump around

Other apparent news flash: It's a freaking primary. His opponent right now is Trump, not Biden. He has to beat Trump to be able to go after Biden.

So whining that "he's attacking Trump" is major league stupid.

Especially since Trump is regularly attacking him.

Are you really trying to attack DeSantis for doing teh exact same thing Trump is doing?

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg: "News flash, the "dem/GOPe alliance" is STILL beating Trump. Or else why did he back Ronna Romney McDonald for head of the RNC?"

Because Ronna had a hard floor of at least 100 votes (out of 168 total in play) locked up that were never going to budge off her which was made clear by public commitments. I am not in Trump's brain but given his history he does not usually move publicly against a sure losing deal if there is zero upside or even rhetorical win.


Trump didn't sit on the sidelines, he sent people to actively campaign FOR Ronna Romney McDaniels, GOPe loser. So your "explanation" fails

"Hey, Mitch McConnell has 30 GOP Senators strongly supporting him for Senate Majority leader, that's why I support him too!"

Seriously, that's your "defense"?

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
Greg, why don't you give us a rundown on Ken Cuccinelli's activities during the 2016 Republican Convention.

Why don't you, Drago, since you seem to think it's important, and I didn't follow that convention.

Note: "Opposing Trump" does NOT make someone either a globalist, or a GOPe member.

Apparently you are so childish that anyone who disagrees with "your guy" must be every bad thing you hate. Which makes you a lot like the Democrats calling Trump an "authoritarian", because they dislike him, therefore he must be everything they dislike.

And Drago, the person I research is the candidate, and his record as an executive, since that is most likely to tell me what kind of executive (President) he would be.

But then again, I do that because I'm a sane person who doesn't form man crushes on politicians

Greg the Class Traitor said...

I find it amazingly impressive, Drago, how you are desperately eager to focus on anything else, so you can avoid talking about the one thing that actually matters:

How has this candidate performed in executive positions, and how is he therefore likely to perform as President?

Hell, we have 4 years of Trump being President. What do we see? The Deep Sate beating him like a piƱata. Total failure any place he couldn't directly be. Massive shitshow when it comes to hiring people, and repeated failures on teh firing front (as in, did't fire people he desperately should have).

What's your answer to that? "Yes, your dem/GOPe alliance was quite strong from 2015 on."

No shit, Sherlock. And they're still strong now, esp since Trump sat on his a$$ while a large number of "his" candidates lost in 2022 and 2023.

Making both the Dems and the GOPe stronger.

"How is Trump going to do better in 2025"? No answer. Just wanking about the polls.

WTF is wrong with you? Why are you so desperate to lose again?

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Drago said...
There is a desperate fight between Haley and DeSantis for continued/expanded funding/support as the recognized most-electable anti-Trump.

It's funny, even when you notice a truth, you still fail to understand it.

DeSantis is competing against Trump, because he's trying to win the nomination.

Haley, OTOH, is competing against DeSantis.

Kind of like the way GOPe tools Rubio and Kasich stayed in to compete against Cruz in 2016.

Did you ever stop to wonder why the GOPe hated Cruz so much more than Trump? It's because the GOPe feared the Cruz would show up with a team of people, turf them out of their phones baloney jobs, and move the GOP structure to the right.

As opposed to Trump, who they thought they could roll. And they were right. You've said it yourself. See Christopher Wray never being fired from the FBI.

See Trump going all in to support GOPe loser Ronna Romney McDaniels as head of the RNC.

Now we have GOPe tool Nikki Haley, who is busy campaigning against not Trump, but DeSantis.

Despite the fact that most DeSantis supporters have Trump as their 2nd choice

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

So whining that "he's attacking Trump" is major league stupid. Especially since Trump is regularly attacking him. Are you really trying to attack DeSantis for doing teh exact same thing Trump is doing?

1. I was not "whining that he's attacking Trump" I was pointing out that the chaos around Trump is 100% the result of dirty democrat lawfare on made-up thoughtcrimes, which is what every Republican should be criticizing. Mimicking Crispy Kreme and Haley is not a good look for Desantis.
2. As you already severely misread everything I've written this is probably not going to penetrate your thick skull, but if you were correct that "DeSantis [is] doing teh exact same thing Trump is doing" then he would be attacking Biden and the Deep State and the rogue prosecutors for the 91 phony indictments.
3. Every Republican primary candidate that tries to play the tit-for-tat game ends up amplifying Trump's name-calling and living it out, just as Jeb! did in 2016. Unless they bring the wit and relentlessness to it that Bog Orange does it cannot be effective. You want Desantis to be effective, don't you, Class Traitor?

Go work on your reading comprehension.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
Me: So whining that "he's attacking Trump" is major league stupid. Especially since Trump is regularly attacking him. Are you really trying to attack DeSantis for doing the exact same thing Trump is doing?

1. I was not "whining that he's attacking Trump" I was pointing out that the chaos around Trump is 100% the result of dirty democrat lawfare on made-up thoughtcrimes, which is what every Republican should be criticizing


No, the vast majority of the chaos around Trump is the result of Trump's utter incompetence. Such as they way he spent 4 years getting utterly beat by the deep State while he was President


2. As you already severely misread everything I've written this is probably not going to penetrate your thick skull, but if you were correct that "DeSantis [is] doing teh exact same thing Trump is doing" then he would be attacking Biden and the Deep State and the rogue prosecutors for the 91 phony indictments.
He IS attacking Biden and the Deep State and the rogue prosecutors. He's ALSO attacking Trump
Just like Trump is also attacking DeSantis

3. Every Republican primary candidate that tries to play the tit-for-tat game ends up amplifying Trump's name-calling and living it out, just as Jeb! did in 2016. Unless they bring the wit and relentlessness to it that Bog Orange does it cannot be effective. You want Desantis to be effective, don't you, Class Traitor?
He has been effective in his attacks on Trump. Which is why the Trump people are whining about them