"... to allow for more hostages to be released. Critics of how Israel is prosecuting its war in Gaza also seized on the event, in which Israeli soldiers fatally shot three shirtless men who were waving a white flag, as an example of its military’s failure to live up to its promises to protect civilians.... The Israeli government has vowed not to stop its operations in Gaza until the military has destroyed Hamas.... "
From "Friendly-fire killings of hostages may force Israel to reconsider Gaza strategy" (NYT).
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92 comments:
Friendly fire tragedies happen in war. The IDF must continue until there is zero chance that any more hostage taking — and any more rapes and murders such as happened on October 7th — can ever happen again.
Playing odds: risk to our men vs risk of killing hostage. It heavily favors protecting our men because hostages are rare and Hamas is not.
Tags: Grasping at straws; Rules for thee but not for me; Selective prosecution; Pot call kettle black
Pro-Palestine and anti-Israel people have been looking for any way to stop, block, or discourage Israel from taking military action from the start of this offensive. Hamas taking Israeli HOSTAGES was a key initial part of that effort.
The relevant facts: Three accidental casualties out of 250 hostages who were only in danger because of Hamas, and after numerous threats by Hamas to kill them all. Maybe this will instead give momentum to those calling for the release of all the hostages (i.e., What was the first ceasefire for? Did they want to trade prisoners/hostages or was it just an effort to delay, gather materiel, and put Israel at a military disadvantage????).
Netanyahu's claim that they are following their publicly stated rules of engagement is shown to be a lie.
Maybe I missed it. When did the Israelis promise to protect civilians? Hamas made that impossible when the sited combatants in hospitals and took hostages.
war is brutal.
death to Hamas.
If Hamas isn't rooted out... the evil will spread.
____________________________
who has Netflix?
I recommend "Leave the World Behind"
(don't lookup who directed it.) watch it anyway. It's... creepy and ... timely.
Hamas killed those Israeli hostages, by abducting them from their homes, and taking them against their will into a warzone. They acted with disregard for their rights and their safety. Israel, by contrast, acts with scrupulous regard for the safety of everyone in that warzone, with the sole exception of the Hamas terrorists, who it wants to kill. There will always be collateral damage.
Whether to seek a ceasefire depends on whether your war objectives have been met. Until Hamas is destroyed, Israel's war objectives have not been met. Be patient, and perhaps they will get there. In the meantime, expect bloodshed, both intentional and accidental. It's a war.
Hamas is celebrated by the anti-Israel left for their heinous torture and cruel brutality.
Netanyahu must thread the needle.
Netanyahu is on his way out... His only reason for command is to successfully take out Hamas (a daunting and probably impossible task) - and I hope he can do it.
The international Jew-hating cult want Hamas to stay in control of the Palestinians (UN a-holes - we are looking at you)
The anti-Israel left left are cheering on Hamas.
Israeli soldiers accidentally shoot three hostages, Israeli army and government express great regret.
Hamas soldiers burn women and children alive, shriek with glee while Gazans cheer.
So obviously we need to do more to support Hamas and Gazans, and ensure Hamas has time to re-arm.
Hamas film their torture, depravity and brutality for bragging rights.
The Jew-hating anti-Israel left shrug and approve.
Wishful thinking.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.
Fog of war. Friendly fire happens in every war. It doesn't excuse it. It is horrible. But it is one of the stories of war.
Bibi is wise to ignore President Roomba. Various US administrations have not led the US to many war-time victories lately. Just guessing, but I suspect when Israel concludes this war, they will not leaves arms, equipment, and ammunition on the battlefield.
Mark said...
"Netanyahu's claim that they are following their publicly stated rules of engagement is shown to be a lie."
This crowd thinks lying is a virtue now.
Carthage.
It’s the only real solution.
A new cease-fire would be a bigger mistake.
Slightly odd that these hostages find their way out of captivity and suddenly show up in front of IDF bullets. What a coincidence. I'll wait a bit before forming an opinion on how this happened.
Glenn Greenwald: "A lot of sentiments that have come from Israel supporters are very sociopathic, and savage and ugly."
I stand w Isreal. Leftists, Mullahs, Hamas-Palistinian terrorists can suck it said...
“who has Netflix?
I recommend ‘Leave the World Behind’”
I just watched it. Thanks for the recommendation.
I've been watching the IDF making steady, methodical progress on Hamas, and silently complimenting their steadfastness as they pay dutiful lip service to their many detractors. This is an Israel that I recognize. 'Sure, sure', they might say, 'We'll instruct our soldiers to take it easy and be very careful'. Meanwhile northern Gaza is emptied and the tunnels flooded right on their implacable schedule.
I'm hoping they continue to placate the empty-headed media with platitudes and then carry on exactly as before. They know what has to be done than they're doing it - after giving all of the empty-headed, addle-pated, umbrage-sated imbeciles their due - which is nothing. Good for them. They are proof that it is possible to say 'No', and make it stick.
Dumb Lefty Mark: "Netanyahu's claim that they are following their publicly stated rules of engagement is shown to be a lie."
Tell me you are completely ignorant of how the most intense and problematic of all warfare scenarios is to conduct (Urban Warfare clearing operations against an entrenched non-Geneva convention foe WITH friendly hostages present while trying to minimize overall civilian casualties) without telling me that in those words.
It was easy to predict it would be Dumb Lefty Mark who would leap out and immediately expose his profound ignorance in ANOTHER subject matter area.
I suggest you read up on the Battle of Mosul for comparison purposes...but you wont...because..."Dumb".
It's not called "the fog of war" for nothing. Any time you make the decision to go to war, you better know that mistakes will be made and that innocents will be hurt. If you think a war can be clean, you are an idiot. Only do it if you think the alternative will be worse.
Iman said...
"A new cease-fire would be a bigger mistake."
You fucking dummy:
Why Israel Can't Win: War Expert Prof. Paul Roger's Devastating Interview
Carthage.
It’s the only real solution.
For those of you who criticized me not providing a link when I claimed Michael K suggested this option, here it is again from someone else.
When did the Israelis promise to protect civilians?
When the Knesset ratified the Geneva Conventions on August 12, 1949.
Again - hand over Israel to Hamas -
all of Israel would be Gaza. A backward dysfunctional terrorist state.
This is what the international UN-loving left want.
Not a decision I'd like to make. In that part of the world, every decision you make tends to be the wrong decision. Nothing ever goes right.....I could argue either way. Israel has visited enough devastation upon Gaza to give every reasonable person there reason to doubt the wisdom of the Hamas leadership. Or alternately, Israel has visited enough devastation upon Gaza to give every devout young man there reason to want to become a martyr and join Hamas in the struggle.....I don't see any joy or peace coming out of the continuance of this operation, and I don't see any joy or peace coming out of a ceasefire. Alternatives can both be bad, but they both can't be worse. The problem is only one alternative and its consequences can happen in the real world. Whatever decision Israel makes will be the wrong decision because that's the decision that has real world consequences.
War is Hell.
Make the rubble bounce
The IDF just screwed up hugely, and THEY THEN ADMITTED TO IT!
Statements against interest are one of my best ways of determining who are the honest people.
Hamas is caught in lies all of the time, yet the western MSM continues to publish the Hamas proclamations. Are all of the MSM stupid, or are they just on the same side as the Hamas Nazis?
Some perspective on how unserious we are compared to how serious the greatest generation was in pursuing victory can be gleaned from reviewing the list of Japanese Hell Ships that transported Allied POWs to Japan for slave labor. Many of them were sunk while doing so with the loss of thousands of Allied POWs. None of those slacked Allied efforts to achieve the goal set forth in FDR's Day of Infamy Speech:
I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.
Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory, and our interests are in grave danger.
With confidence in our armed forces with the unbounding determination of our people we will gain the inevitable triumph so help us God.
List of Japanese Hell Ships with those sunk and the number of POWs killed by Allies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_hell_ships#Select_list
Truly tragic, but reportedly against the rules of engagement. Certainly not a reason to give the Hamas monsters another ceasefire to breach on their way to annihilating Israelis.
It was immediately apparent the pro-Hamas activists would pounce on this unfortunate incident and seize on the ceasefire as the (false) solution.
This is all so silly.
War is war. Mistakes happen in war. Rape and dismemberment by Hamas was deliberate.
Any questions?
Israeli soldiers accidentally shoot three hostages, Israeli army and government express great regret.
Not trying to cover it up, not waiting for it to be discovered by third parties - they make it public themselves, and then Israeli society struggles civilly and openly with its own internal dissent, doubt, and heartbreak.
Hamas soldiers burn women and children alive, shriek with glee while Gazans cheer.
And the international Left - and rcocean and Crack, who don't normally come down on that side - think, loudly, that these are the downtrodden good guys, the Navi, the Fremen, John Brown... while Hamas holds its own people in a war zone at gunpoint so their utility as accidental casualties and human shields isn't compromised.
Gaza Gaslighting: US Spox Caught LYING LIVE
Over and over again. Why, I'm old enough to remember when conservatives didn't trust the government. But those days are gone,...
From "Friendly-fire killings of hostages may force Israel to reconsider Gaza strategy"
May
Could
Might
Is possible
The 24-hour media complex: 2% news, 98% opinion and desired policy dressed as news.
Yes, I'm being generous.
For those of you who criticized me not providing a link when I claimed Michael K suggested this option, here it is again from someone else.
Once again the Field Marshall attacks me by name. Killing hostages is an option ?
Blogger Robert Marshall said...
Hamas killed those Israeli hostages, by abducting them from their homes, and taking them against their will into a warzone. They acted with disregard for their rights and their safety. Israel, by contrast, acts with scrupulous regard for the safety of everyone in that warzone, with the sole exception of the Hamas terrorists, who it wants to kill. There will always be collateral damage.
Field Marshall Freder stands with Crack and Hamas. Kill all the Jews ! That's their motto.
For those of you who criticized me not providing a link when I claimed Michael K suggested this option, here it is again from someone else.
Once again the Field Marshall attacks me by name. Killing hostages is an option ?
Blogger Robert Marshall said...
Hamas killed those Israeli hostages, by abducting them from their homes, and taking them against their will into a warzone. They acted with disregard for their rights and their safety. Israel, by contrast, acts with scrupulous regard for the safety of everyone in that warzone, with the sole exception of the Hamas terrorists, who it wants to kill. There will always be collateral damage.
Field Marshall Freder stands with Crack and Hamas. Kill all the Jews ! That's their motto.
"Friendly-fire killings of hostages may force Israel to reconsider Gaza strategy"
There are two alternatives for Israel:
-Win
-Lose
Since they are currently winning, leftists and other anti-Semites would like them to reconsider.
Hamas 7th Century Death Cult Fanboy Crack: "You fucking dummy:"
The biggest f***ing dummy around here is you.
You are a walkin'/talkin' Dunning-Kruger case study on New Age steroids.
Cracks' link. 10:14
The woman uses the word "literally". a lot.
Big red flag there.
US bombs are "literally killing Palestinian babies."
"Literally unreal" she says. What is "literally unreal" is her acceptance of Hamas terror.
Hamas terror kills Palestinian babies. and Israel's babies.
No mention from "literally" woman about Hamas terror starting this whole thing. No discussion from "Literally" woman on the fact that Hamas has a long history of using the Palestinians as human shields for the propaganda.
Israel Sent SUITCASES OF CASH Into Gaza For Hamas Says NYTimes!
Israel = Bibi Netanyahu
Idiot crackers selects a George Soros Open Society/Open Democracy/Ford Foundation funded “war expert” to support his nonsense takes.
Pull the other one…
Life is horrible for Palestinians. That is Hamas' fault.
similar to all the Venezuelans being shipped to our border. Life is awful for Venezuelans in Venezuela. Venezuela is run by a communist dictator. Will the corrupt CIA(NBC) media discuss Maduro's failed communism and greed? Maduro has had an iron grip on his nation since 2013. Venezuela is a corrupt tin-pot communist authoritarian dictatorship... and it is crumbling. The poorest suffer most.
what do leftists and other various morons want for America? Progressive Communism!
Immigration is the #1 issue for voters. Trump will blow it, I'm sure.
The same people who gave 10s of billions to hamas quelle surprise
It’s easy for me to see a smile on the face of the NYT’s headline writer…
Glenn Greenwald: "A lot of sentiments that have come from Israel supporters are very sociopathic, and savage and ugly."
War is very savage and ugly. Best not to start one if you want to avoid this sort of thing. Sympathy, perhaps. Capitulation, no.
Weve forgotten eu and un and us funding of hamas oh never mind.
Some people's lives are more important than others. It's a hard truth, but it is the truth.
Yes they have been lying or omitting details for more than 40 years
So three unarmed men waving a white flag are gunned down by the IDF. We hear about it because the 3 were Jews. How many unarmed Arabs have been gunned down, that we have NOT heard about.
You have to wonder how many war crimes Israel has to committ or how innocent Gazan children, women, and innocent old men have to die before Genocide Joe takes action and stops sending Israel the bombs and weapons used to kill kids.
Hey, Hey Joe Biden, how many kids did you kill today?
Meanwhile on the west banK: "The Palestinian health ministry says the number of Palestinians killed by Israel has reached 505 since the beginning of this year. In a statement, it said 111 of the dead are children. Since October 7, Israelis forces have killed 297 Palestinians there, including 70 children."
“When the Knesset ratified the Geneva Conventions on August 12, 1949.”
The Geneva Conventions are a pact between the 196 countries that are signatories to those conventions. Whether they apply in the case of conflict with groups like Hamas is an open question. The consensus is that signatories should voluntarily comply with the terms of the convention to the extent reasonable and possible , but not in all circumstances and not in every particular.
Hamas is not a signatory (it can’t be. It’s not a country) and clearly doesn’t follow any of its rules. But Israel is following the conventions with respect to prisoners of war, including allowing visits by the Red Cross. That is reasonable and possible. It’s also reasonable for Hamas to do the same, but of course they do not.
When you take hostages and use hospitals as cover, in other words act as if the conventions don’t apply, you give up any theoretical claims against Israel under the conventions.
Field Marshall Freder stands with Crack and Hamas. Kill all the Jews ! That's their motto.
So are you denying that in a previous post on this subject you declared that the Israelis should treat Gaza like the Romans treated Carthage? It will be tiresome, but I guess I can go back and find the post (unless you have already deleted it).
Field Marshall Freder stands with Crack and Hamas. Kill all the Jews ! That's their motto.
I have never claimed to stand with either Crack or Hamas. Furthermore, I have assiduously avoided commenting on October 7 and the aftermath. Find me one post where I have commented on the situation in Gaza.
I knew some idiot (and if I was a betting man, I would have put money on Michael K being the first one) would accuse of supporting Hamas. My only posts on this subject is to criticize those of you who are advocating genocide of the Palestinians.
By extension, I am not only condemning you, Jim Gust, and others, but Althouse. She has posted numerous times deploring calls for the genocide of Israelis, but has yet to criticize those who are calling for genocide of the residents of Gaza. And of course, if the Israelis treated the residents of Gaza like the Romans treated the Carthaginians (which would involve razing Gaza to the ground, killing the vast majority of the residents and selling the rest into slavery, apparently the part of sowing the land with salt was an nineteenth century embellishment, but I bet that part is what really turns you and Jim on) then that would be genocide (or maybe just ethnic cleansing, since if you deny Palestinian national identity, it would only be a small portion of Arabs eliminated).
Of course, your "final solution" would not be limited to Gaza. I can't imagine that killing the entire population of Gaza would or could end with Gaza. They would have to extend the slaughter to the West Bank, Southern Lebanon, and the Sinai at the vey least.
So when you advocate "Carthage" as a solution, you are calling for the genocide of well over 5 million people, something that has not been seen since the Nazi's genocide of World War II.
So instead of recalling fondly a genocide from more than two thousand years, why don't you just say "the only solution is to treat the Palestinians like the Nazis did the Jews Eastern Europeans", because you are advocating the same level of slaughter. Actually, on a proportional basis the genocide would be much greater than what even the Nazis achieved.
“When the Knesset ratified the Geneva Conventions on August 12, 1949.”
The Geneva Conventions are a pact between the 196 countries that are signatories to those conventions. Whether they apply in the case of conflict with groups like Hamas is an open question. The consensus is that signatories should voluntarily comply with the terms of the convention to the extent reasonable and possible , but not in all circumstances and not in every particular.
Hamas is not a signatory (it can’t be. It’s not a country) and clearly doesn’t follow any of its rules. But Israel is following the conventions with respect to prisoners of war, including allowing visits by the Red Cross. That is reasonable and possible. It’s also reasonable for Hamas to do the same, but of course they do not.
When you take hostages and use hospitals as cover, in other words act as if the conventions don’t apply, you give up any theoretical claims against Israel under the conventions.
Iman said...
"Idiot crackers selects a George Soros Open Society/Open Democracy/Ford Foundation funded “war expert” to support his nonsense takes.
Pull the other one…"
If you make opinions by disregarding what anyone of another political stripe says - just because they're of another political stripe - you're hella dumb. I care if someone makes sense or not - I don't give a fuck where they're from. I'd listen to you, if you were in the least bit reasonable. But you hated cancel culture two months ago - and now you practice it. THAT'S not impressive. That's vile and stupid. So I'm left with a George Soros Open Society/Open Democracy/Ford Foundation funded “war expert” who is, at least, coherent AND consistent.
I'm sure you do enough "pulling" for the both of us.
Crack burning up YouTube to make his “case”. Running out of ammo it seems as the videos get more lame. No way to get that honorary Harvard degree even if he never removes his keffiyeh. Even the green headband won’t help. There are some Jew hating nutters the college won’t admit.
mark: "Netanyahu's claim that they are following their publicly stated rules of engagement is shown to be a lie."
Yeah. He lost sight of the shooters for a moment. And they panicked. Bad, bad Bibi.
Move on to your next dumbass comment. Hamas guy.
Crack: "Israel sent suitcases of cash into Gaza for Hamas, says NYTimes."
And Trump is a Russian spy and there is "no evidence" of election fraud 2020. THAT NYTimes?
Or are you confusing them with the "no rapes" LATimes?
May we have the names of the NYT sources please? What! There are no named sources in the article. Really?
"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed." Mark Twain (You know, the racist who wrote Huckleberry Finn.)
The IDF alleged earlier Friday that Hamas has attempted to use dolls and backpacks with speakers playing sounds of crying or children speaking in Hebrew to lure Israeli soldiers into a trap.
So I'm supposed to believe that either these hostages escaped and ran across some white flags (what is the likelihood of that?), or they were let go by Hamas without scheduling a trade or ceasefire since they are such good guys.
And you guys are eating this shit up with a spoon. Casualties of war and such.
A much higher probability is that this was orchestrated by Hamas, either as a PR stunt or a trap for the IDF.
The IDF alleged earlier Friday that Hamas has attempted to use dolls and backpacks with speakers playing sounds of crying or children speaking in Hebrew to lure Israeli soldiers into a trap.
So I'm supposed to believe that either these hostages escaped and ran across some white flags (what is the likelihood of that?), or they were let go by Hamas without scheduling a trade or ceasefire since they are such good guys.
And you guys are eating this shit up with a spoon. Casualties of war and such.
A much higher probability is that this was orchestrated by Hamas, either as a PR stunt or a trap for the IDF.
If Israel had shot US hostages, our government would have given Israel $10 billion in cash to promise it won’t happen again.
This war is between Israel and Palestine. The US only interest is getting American hostages back.
And keeping Palestinians out of the United States.
@Crack: So what the hell are your points that we are supposed to take to heart? That Israeli Jews are usurpers and that they should load their stuff into "Jew-Haul" trucks (Bill Maher) and clear out or face the "justified" brutality of Hamas?
Or did I overstep by acknowledging the well-documented systematic brutality of Hamas?
The Geneva Conventions are a pact between the 196 countries that are signatories to those conventions. Whether they apply in the case of conflict with groups like Hamas is an open question. The consensus is that signatories should voluntarily comply with the terms of the convention to the extent reasonable and possible , but not in all circumstances and not in every particular.
Can you provide a link that supports this assertion? Because I think it is bullshit. It is an open question whether Israel has to treat Hamas fighters according to the conventions, but the treatment of civilians is a completely different issue. If you read the conventions, the treatment of civilians is sacrosanct whether or not the enemy abides by the conventions. Since Gaza may or may not be part of Israel and the conventions do not explicitly cover internal conflicts, you may have a very weak argument on that point.
It is like the bullshit that was spread on this forum during the Iraq War that the conventions allow the summary execution of anyone (in fact it is explicitly prohibited) or that torture is permitted under some circumstances.
You are just misinformed or liars and Althouse never calls you on it.
Israel must be very effective at it's terrorist eradication mission based on the unceasing calls for a cease fire from Hamas' apologists.
https://melaniephillips.substack.com/p/brainwashing-becomes-the-new-normal
Freder said, " My only posts on this subject is to criticize those of you who are advocating genocide of the Palestinians."
Quit using words you don't the meaning of.
Israel is not practicing "genocide". If it were there would be no Palestinians in Israel. There would be no Palestinians in Gaza.
Real genocide was practiced by the Nazis. The Nazis, if they were able would have scoured the world to murder every last Jew. Such is not the case with your beloved Palestinians.
Adding to Jersey Fled's post
1) The Geneva Protocols only require that signatories's military forces operating in areas with non-combatants focus operations on military objectives, not general destruction, and use the amount of force necessary to achieve those objectives.
2) The Protocols also require military forces to distinguish themselves from non-combatants, to not use the presence of non-combatants as a means of disrupting their adversary's operations, and to allow free passage of non-combatants out of their areas of operation.
Israel has complied with these provisions.
Hamas has not.
Freder's obtuse error here is to treat Michael K's invocation of a "Carthage" strategy as meaning "kill all the Gaza Palestinians", when he is actually urging Israel to utterly destroy Hamas--which is its stated goal.
Hamas and many Palestinians, OTOH, have repeatedly proclaimed their goal of destroying the nation of Israel and all its Jewish citizens. That's what "from the river to the sea" means.
There's more than a nuance of difference.
“Why Israel Can't Win: War Expert Prof. Paul Roger's Devastating Interview“
It would be a lot more efficient if the nations of the world let Expert Prof Paul tell them who was going to win each war, then the other side could just give up.
The Crack Emcee:
If you make opinions by disregarding what anyone of another political stripe says - just because they're of another political stripe - you're hella dumb.
You do it all the time. Remember this gem, Hamas co-founder’s son speaks out where you didn't watch it, first because you accused me of stupidly linking to a Hamas supporting video and later because you found anything I linked to to not be worth your time?
Glad you finally fess up to being "hella dumb".
One: killing the hostage in a fire fight with the kidnappers is alas one of the risks one faces when deciding on a rescue. The tragic death of Rev. Burnham here in the Philippines, a hostage of Muslim terrorists, comes to mind.
Two: pretending to surrender, then killing the entire squad of rescuers is the oldest trick in the book. As any veteran who actually served in war.
Three: remember: this was a split second life and death decision. If this had been Hama pretending to surrender, the Israeli squad would have died. And the hostages were approaching the Israeli soldiers in a way that suggested they were a threat.
Four: Such things happen in war. Stonewall Jackson was killed by a sentry because he didn't give the password fast enough.
the hostages should be mourned, but remember: The culprits are those who kidnapped them in the first place.
Hamas delenda est
She has posted numerous times deploring calls for the genocide of Israelis, but has yet to criticize those who are calling for genocide of the residents of Gaza.
Because no one serious believes that is their aim or that it would ever happen. By “no one serious” obviously we have to exclude Butt-Crack Emcee, the little rcocean guy and Qatari-educated collegians in America who believe 10-second TikTok videos promoted by the ChiComs allied with Russia and Iran are a great way to learn about history, civilization and civics.
About a quarter of Israel’s population is not Jewish. I’ve never heard any hater tell me how they are made unequal in their rights.
And yet a substantial number of them share, along with most Palestinians, a worldview that believes “dar al Islam” will conquer the world through armed struggle and imposing second-class “dhimmi” status on Christians and Jews. A worldview that requires those who leave it to be killed as well. A worldview that somehow magically accompanied a conquest of the Middle East that left no non-Arab ethnic minority intact and left non-Muslims subjugated for centuries.
But some Israelis said some bad things and the eggheads have said that speech is violence and only Jews can be harassed or subjected to calls for genocide so let’s focus on that.
@Crack: Iman said... "Idiot crackers selects a George Soros Open Society/Open Democracy/Ford Foundation funded “war expert” to support his nonsense takes.
Pull the other one…"
If you make opinions by disregarding what anyone of another political stripe says - just because they're of another political stripe - you're hella dumb.
I completely agree that disregarding opinions solely because of their source amounts to the flip side of argument by authority. It is just as dumb as claiming something is true just because Einstein said it.
I did look at a couple of your links. The axe grinding was palpable anytime my cursor got anywhere near the play buttons. Aside from that, if is a real imposition on the rest of us to expect we are going to sit through an hour of Youtube vijayos because you can't be fussed to post anything more than the titles. We can read at least four times faster than people can speak, so stop wasting our time.
Especially since you have an oft-demonstrate track record of not reading your own links, badly misrepresenting them, and not once acknowledging your errors, intentional or otherwise. Lord knows I don't want to waste even more time with videos you no more familiarity with.
Netanyahu's claim that they are following their publicly stated rules of engagement is shown to be a lie.
Yeah. The biggest problem in all this is what Netanyahu said.
Your terrorist sympathies are duly noted.
“But you hated cancel culture two months ago - and now you practice it. THAT'S not impressive. That's vile and stupid. So I'm left with a George Soros Open Society/Open Democracy/Ford Foundation funded “war expert” who is, at least, coherent AND consistent.”
Crackers raises the Strawman “cancel” as if in response to something I’ve written. Which I did not do.
When I see or smell bullshit, I find it easy to avoid it. You, however, are drawn to it. Like a moth to a flame. 🔥
Freder claims he doesn't support Hamas ... and then spews 400 words sympathizing with them.
There are only two sides in this war. By your own words, it's quite clear which side you're on.
You would think that this development would make the Neo-Nazis like Crack and rcocean happy. Perhaps, so happy that Crack would stop bombing the threads.
Let's face it. There are people who see Jews as oppressors and there is nothing Jews can do to atone for the sin of achievement.
They may even be the most evil of White people, although the Sephardim are POC.
Hamas delenda est.
Nice try Freder.
I notice you didn’t provide any links to support your statement.
Calling something bullshit doesn’t count.
But just for fun Freder, I’ll do your homework for you.
“Applicability of the Geneva Conventions
The Conventions apply to all cases of declared war between signatory nations. This is the original sense of applicability, which predates the 1949 version.
The Conventions apply to all cases of armed conflict between two or more signatory nations, even in the absence of a declaration of war. This language was added in 1949 to accommodate situations that have all the characteristics of war without the existence of a formal declaration of war, such as a police action (a military action undertaken without a formal declaration of war).
The Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation "accepts and applies the provisions" of the Conventions. Source: 1952 Commentary on the Geneva Conventions, edited by Jean Pictet.”
Hamas has clearly not accepted and applied the provisions of the Convention.
https://www.israelhayom.com/opinions/hamas-delenda-est/
Especially since you have an oft-demonstrate track record of not reading your own links, badly misrepresenting them, and not once acknowledging your errors, intentional or otherwise.
Just last week Crackers said the mass rapes and mutilations of Hamas did not occur because a news clipping that he linked to from October the 9th said that it could not confirm them. October the 9th!
This guy cannot even figure out how reporting timelines work. I’d say his hatred of Israel blinds him but the truth is he’s deficient in the basics of remedial fact collecting. It’s really something to behold.
Since Gaza may or may not be part of Israel and the conventions do not explicitly cover internal conflicts, you may have a very weak argument on that point.
Oh, ok that helps. So you’re saying that if it’s called an internal conflict then Israel could kill up to a half million of them as Syria’s Assad did to his “own people” and everyone would shut up about it the way they have done with how he prosecuted his war?
It’s all starting to make a lot more sense now. Thanks!
@Freder, all that the Palestinians have to do is to (1) accept that Israel is a sovereign nation with every right to exist, and to defend its citizens, and (2) find a way to prove to the Israelis that nothing like October 7th will ever happen again. That's it. No more Palestinians would ever have to die.
Now will the Palestinians ever do that? Probably, but IMHO only after a lot of Palestinians are killed than have died already will they finally accept that their dream of wiping Israel from the map has no basis in reality. Too bad.
pacwest (2:35pm):
I've also wondered if this was somehow orchestrated or arranged by Hamas. One point in favor of the hypothesis: Hamas's Russian allies started doing something similar in Ukraine a few days ago. They used Ukrainian POWs as human shields, forcing them to advance towards Ukrainian positions in uniform with their hands up while the Russians advance behind them. Yes, it's on film. Clever, but yet another gross violation of the Geneva Conventions.
Pacwest, the fact most of the people commenting here share your assumptions tells me there is hope for humanity and that Civilization will win this war. Barbarians never give up and neither should Civilization.
Israel is not practicing "genocide". If it were there would be no Palestinians in Israel. There would be no Palestinians in Gaza.
Your reading comprehension sucks. Where did I say that Israel was practicing "genocide"? I limited my comments to criticizing the people on this forum who are advocating genocide.
Freder's obtuse error here is to treat Michael K's invocation of a "Carthage" strategy as meaning "kill all the Gaza Palestinians", when he is actually urging Israel to utterly destroy Hamas--which is its stated goal."
Really?! Referring to a "Carthage" solution does not refer to genocide? This is what the Romans did to Carthage to end the Fourth Punic War.
"The next morning the Romans started systematically working their way through the residential part of the city, killing everyone they encountered and firing the buildings behind them.[271] At times the Romans progressed from rooftop to rooftop, to prevent missiles being hurled down on them.[273] It took six days to clear the city of resistance; only on the last day did Scipio take prisoners. The last holdouts, including Roman deserters in Carthaginian service, fought on from the Temple of Eshmoun and burnt it down around themselves when all hope was gone.[274] There were 50,000 Carthaginian prisoners, a small proportion of the pre-war population, who were sold into slavery."
The endless refugee status of the Palestinians will likely not be allowed to continue after the current Israeli military destruction of Hamas, the governing authority of Gaza. That unique status of multigenerational refugees is the key to ongoing Palestinian refusal to accept that they started wars and lost them. Remove their status as refugees, call them simply the losers of the wars they started, and impose upon them the status of defeated enemy nation. Their choice from that point to live among civilized people or continue their policy of murder as their central cultural tenet.
The "Fourth Punic War"? How to show your historical illiteracy in three words. There were only three, and you mean the Third.
The "Fourth Punic War"? How to show your historical illiteracy in three words. There were only three, and you mean the Third.
Sorry, my mistake. And true, my knowledge of Roman history is limited. But since Glenn Reynolds (many years ago), and now Michael K and Jim Gust brought it up as a solution to the problems in the Middle East, I looked it up.
The fact is, whether it was the third or fourth, it was a war that ended with genocide.
It's an unpleasant truth, but the threshold for making effective war on a nation, a war that actually succeeds at changing that nation's behavior is this: You have to kill at least 10% of the pre-war population, and utterly destroy its infrastructure. That's the bare-ass minimum.
How do we know this? Well... History. WWI did not succeed in convincing Germany to cease with the world-conquest idea; WWII did. In WWI, we killed between 3-4% of the German and Austrian population. Japan apparently learned more easily, in terms of losses in WWII: We only had to kill something less than 5% of the pre-WWII population. That, however, was a near-run thing: Had we gone to Operation Olympic, odds are pretty good that Japan would have seen exponentially higher losses.
In any event, the raw facts of history are, if you want to actually change a nation's behavior, that means a whole lot of killing needs to happen, along with a lot of destruction. Nothing else seems to make the corrective point, and if you're like the US and want to make "humane" war, you're really not being all that "humane", in truth... Because, this incrementalist BS just means you have to do the job over and over and over again.
Be brutal. Be fast. Save lives. Three things that people absolutely do not want, these days, which is why they really ought to just shut down the Pentagon and make it a day-care facility. So long as you're unwilling to do the necessary, you should absolutely not be making war.
It's notable that since we moved to this incremental BS, we've failed to win any wars. Just sayin'...
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