"Fast chargers can fill a car battery in 10 minutes to an hour.... Home chargers generally take a full night to replenish a battery. Ruth Milligan, a resident of Columbus, Ohio, tried taking her daughter, Maggie Daiber, to Michigan State University in August. Ms. Milligan calculated where she would need to charge her ID.4 during the four-hour trip. 'I did my homework on the charging network,' said Ms. Milligan.... But she hadn’t considered that the battery would drain faster when the car was weighed down with her daughter’s possessions and her husband, Dave Daiber, who is 6 feet 4 inches tall.
Less than two hours into the trip, Ms. Milligan realized that the car was not going to make it to Toledo, Ohio, where she had planned to charge. Instead, they got off the highway in Findlay. Of the four chargers in town, one was behind a locked gate; another was at a Toyota dealership that would not let a Volkswagen use its charger; a third would charge only Teslas; and the fourth had been installed recently and was not yet working...."
From "Electric Vehicles Start to Enter the Car-Buying Mainstream
While sales are still skewed toward affluent buyers, more people are choosing electric vehicles to save money" (NYT).
Why do you have to do "homework"? Why doesn't the car do all the calculations and show you where you need to go and how long it will take? It can take an hour on a fast charger? Will you have to wait while others ahead of you take an hour to "fast" charge?
What a nightmare! I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically, and the rate of change is pathetic.
Posts
151 comments:
If you live in an urban area or the suburbs, only use the car for local trips, and can install a fast charger in your grarage, then an electric car makes sense. Especially now that they’re being subsidized both directly (tax credits) and indirectly (no gasoline taxes to pay for road upkeep), an electric car makes a nice second or third car for an upscale family.
The fact that any EVs are being purchased shows how gullible and stupid people are. PT Barnum was right. Oh, and you can buy a Tesla with Bitcoin.
It can take an hour on a fast charger?
Cars are big and heavy and can go fast.
I'm going to be the annoying boor here and ask before anyone else where the electricity is coming from for all these chargers? Unicorns, and rainbows, and pixie dust?
Why do you have to do "homework"? Why doesn't the car do all the calculations and show you where you need to go and how long it will take? It can take an hour on a fast charger? Will you have to wait while others ahead of you take an hour to "fast" charge?
The range given was most likely do to the varying sizes of batteries on vehicles.
Right now there are precisely two use cases for an electric car. The first is commuting to and from work with relatively short commutes, where one can recharge at home overnight. But not in an attached garage! Too many EVs have caught fire while being recharged. In fact I just read where one EV manufacturer warns its owners not to recharge their vehicles in a garage for fear of burning the house down.
A comparable use case is as a 2nd car for a household with a stay at home if work at home spouse. The EV is used only for shopping, dropping the kids at school, running errands, and low distance travel.
Actually, there’s a third use case: virtue signaling.
And she can only go from Columbus to Toledo!? That's less than half a tank of gas. Why do some people not understand electric cars are for around town. Commuting, things like that. They're not fit for road trips.
A friend of mine accompanied her son to Texas to buy a used Tesla. They flew there, got the car, and expected the drive back to L.A. area to take two days. It took six.
EV's a great for tooling around town. That's it.
This will all be solved by 2035 for sure.
When taking a laden trip, use the pickup truck.
It is generally the pattern for new innovations to be more expensive and funded by wealthier people.
There are certain people in certain financial situations where Electric Vehicles make sense as Douglas points out above.
The fact that poor people are being taxed to subsidize wealthier people that are buying EV's is morally indefensible however.
When I read the headline I pictured a knight on a galloping snow white steed.
Imagine my disappointment when I read the text.
Dave Begley said...
The fact that any EVs are being purchased shows how gullible and stupid people are. PT Barnum was right. Oh, and you can buy a Tesla with Bitcoin.
The future is going to be a tough place for someone as ignorant and loud as you are.
I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically, and the rate of change is pathetic.
The Democrats aren’t going to give you a choice.
Anything else will be the end of democracy.
I live in a car manufacturing area and was having a discussion about all the big things in the works. Apparently there are engineers working on road surfaces that charge the car as it drives. I mean, that sounds cool, but we can't even have roads that don't take out your tires as you drive. And I don't even know what happens in the snow when the roads are covered.
I said I like the way the iPhone developed- organically. Nobody said "Steve Jobs you have to have a phone out in 10 years that can give everyone their exact location and let them do their banking". No, it started with a music device, then a phone, then the next thing and the next as they made it work. Not come up with some fake goal (we need to be all electric in 12 years) and try quickly to come up with the technology to make that happen.
In the US, it takes approximately 5-7 minutes to "charge" a gasoline vehicle to full capacity.
There are, according to NACS, the association for convenience and fuel retailing, about 145,000 fueling stations across the United States. Many intersections in the US have a "recharging" station on all 4 corners "charging" vehicles.
I know what you're saying: Well, we won't need any of this when everybody is charging their cars at home. But you haven't accounted for all the people living in apartments, who don't have garages. Don't have 240va charging stations in their homes.
It will take half a century for the electric infrastructure to meet this demand (if ever). And at what cost to the environment when all these dead batteries have to be buried and begin corroding with their toxic chemicals into our groundwater?
It is obscene what is occurring. When you realize that it is to the benefit of a very few insanely rich people, it makes it even worse.
The world you people are creating is uninhabitable and you all deserve the future you have coming to you (I'm old and will be dead before you ruin the planet.) Good luck, idiots.
Fifteen years ago right-wingers were hoarding incandescent light bulbs. (I suspect there are a lot of closets filled with incandescent bulbs that will never be used.) LEDs now are the norm.
Electric cars will be like that.
We were also talking to someone in the field and told him we had doubts about not only getting where we'd want to go, but then getting home. He asked for an example city. We said "Chicago"
Not a problem! He said. All the hotels have charging ports.
Well, how many charging ports? Enough for all their guests? What if I want to pay less for parking than the hotel charges? What if I'm not even staying at a hotel, but at someone's home and I have to park on the street?
Urban street parking seems like the one of the biggest flies in the electric car ointment, but maybe I'm just not a visionary.
Douglas Levene gets it right. An electric as your main vehicle makes no sense. I drove back from Maine this summer, made it from Portland to just across the Indiana line in one day. That would be a two r three day trip in an electric and I'd still be a full day away from home. In my trusty 2004 Malibu I was only 5 hours away. And speaking of 'where do you think the electricity comes from' question, as the push for solar and wind accelerates you'll be left wondering how to charge your car during the inevitable brown and black outs.
Yes- an hour to fully recharge a battery pack that can take a passenger car more than 200 miles without stopping. You can do it in 10 minutes/stop if you recharge every 40-50 miles or so.
Most people don't really grasp how energy dense gasoline is. Trying to quickly transfer to a battery pack the electrical energy equivalent of 15 gallons of gasoline runs up against hard physical barriers for which there really aren't economically viable solutions you can pack into a car, and there never will be. Now apply this same problem to charging a battery pack that can carry a fully load semi-truck 500 miles- not solvable at all.
An EV is a fantastic second car as long as your daily commute is less than 200 miles. As a single car, you'd have to be prepared to rent a car if you're going to travel between cities. That's a lot of cars that could be EVs, but the idea that all cars are going to be EVs with current technology is absurd.
Electric cars are just a bridge until all transportation options are run by the government.
You will only be able to travel how you are allowed to travel.
You will own nothing and like it.
"It can take an hour on a fast charger?"
Reality burns, doesn't it? As far as the language aspect, it's perfectly fair -- something that reduces the time involved by 88% is reasonably called "fast" come here with the slower methods.
As far as it details go, Douglas covers pretty much everything right in the very first comment. The only thing I would emphasize in addition is the distorting role of subsidies. If you're surprised by that... you probably got the same degree in Econ that AOC did. If people had to pay the true, full cost, there'd be a lot less fantasizing about "saving money" by buying an electric car, and the sales would be mostly to early adopter types who knew what they were getting into.
Pig/poke/desserts
The change to an all electric transportation system will take a lot longer than it's supporters think.
All the energy created by burning gasoline and diesel fuel will have to be replaced by electricity generated to charge batteries. I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but it seems to me that our electrical generating capacity will have to at least double (and I suspect I am underestimating the requirement by a lot).
The people pushing this idea are either can't or won't confront the consequences of their proposed "solution".
The real problem seems to be that while there is government money to install chargers, the maintenance and upkeep is on the operator of the charger. And quite a few charger operators apparently aren't set up to maintain as an ongoing concern with out government money, which can't go to repair and maintenance.
And this story highlights the other issue, the range collapses if you have a load or are operating in hilly territory. Tow or load down a vehicle kills the range. As does headwinds, using the heater in winter, the AC in summer. The former being "free" in an ICE vehicle.
And really who wants to put that much mental effort to go on a 3 hour trip? How many people forget to charge the smart phone? And I don't like the "range anxiety" when I'm driving long distance and get to a quarter tank. I always feel better when I finally stop worrying about the next exit and take 10 minutes to refuel.
"Fast chargers can fill [sic] a car battery in 10 minutes to an hour." Read the fine print. I believe that's an 80 percent charge for most EVs. Just another little disappointment.
Once written, twice... said...
Fifteen years ago right-wingers were hoarding incandescent light bulbs. (I suspect there are a lot of closets filled with incandescent bulbs that will never be used.) LEDs now are the norm.
Electric cars will be like that.
This is true, but at the time they were getting rid of the 100 Watt incandescent light bulbs, the common available replacement was the CFL, which was terrible. LEDs were just becoming available.
If the regulators had waited just a few years, LEDs would have already been more available, CFLs would have been the minor player they deserved to be, and people would have more easily given up incandescent bulbs.
If you live in an urban area or the suburbs, only use the car for local trips, and can install a fast charger in your grarage, then an electric car makes sense. Especially now that they’re being subsidized both directly (tax credits) and indirectly (no gasoline taxes to pay for road upkeep).
Yes, but how long before taxes on electricity go up for road maintenance?
If less gas is used because of EVs, do you think our overlords will just shrug at the loss of revenue? Of course not. All of us who use electricity will pay more, assuming there is enough electricity to go around.
"You can do it in 10 minutes/stop if you recharge every 40-50 miles or so."
That could be real annoying and I've done similar when I drove across West Texas back in 1999. Only I was stopping every 50-70 miles for bbq. It was a delicious trip with fueling only a couple times. Made West Texas less of a grueling part of the San Diego to DC via I-10 drive when I transferred.
"I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically, and the rate of change is pathetic."
Well, that's good, because there isn't enough lithium in the world for everybody to have one.
"Fifteen years ago right-wingers were hoarding incandescent light bulbs. (I suspect there are a lot of closets filled with incandescent bulbs that will never be used.) LEDs now are the norm."
Yes, the Chinese made LEDs the norm. If we'd depended on GE or Westinghouse, not so much. But with the economic changes, I don't see the Chinese refining the EV like they did getting the LED driver on a chip
Serious question: Whatever happened to hybrid cars?
Seems like they addressed many of these issues.
Here's the really, really bad news for those who think that it is only a matter of time before they finally build enough fast charging stations. The fact is that having enough charging stations isn't the main problem, and somehow, nobody has thought to ask the more basic question: where is the electric grid going to get enough generating capacity to deliver electricity to serve all those charging stations. The Democrats are methodically eliminating all fossil fuel based generating capacity. Even at present generating capacity, I saw a calculation for California that if they replaced all current gas cars with EVs, they would need to generate 80 times their current capacity. And that's before they shut down all their nuclear, coal, and natural gas generators.
So, nobody has asked the most basic questions. Why not?
From the headline: ". . . .more people are choosing electric vehicles to save money"
I thought the benefit (save $$) didn't even out for 8-10 years at which time the battery will be dead (if not much earlier). And, if I recall correctly, that's only the savings from not not using gas. I doesn't account for the electricity cost (if charging at home).
Reminds me of neighbors 30 years ago. They loved to go to Reno on long weekends - so they bought a huge (and new) mobile home so that they could go to Reno (from Seattle area) at least once a month because they "couldn't afford to stay in a hotel" and it was saving them money.
"more people are choosing electric vehicles to save money"
By first taking my money to lower the price of the car, and then by letting me pay all the gas taxes to fund the roads.
"Why doesn't the car do all the calculations and show you where you need to go and how long it will take?"
Would be tricky, considering weight etc.
"Will you have to wait while others ahead of you take an hour to "fast" charge?"
Yes, assuming the chargers work.
"What a nightmare"
So you say. Apparently, you care more about your own convenience than about the planet. You have a lot to learn, and Dems are ready to teach.
But the basic mistake in complaining about EVs for road trips etc. is the notion that everyone should be free to go on road trips. It's true that EV tech and power supply upgrades won't be able to support our current standard of living. It's false that progs therefore won't foist the transition on us. We will just be "asked" to adjust our behavior, as utility companies have already begun to do. Control, not freedom, is the name of the prog energy game.
This 100% EV adoption fever is nuts, and more and more people are coming to recognize it as such. Going EV is going backwards now for the foreseeable future. Any load in your EV will reduce your available miles. The weather will reduce your available miles. A battery that has become wet (see Hurricane Ian EV loss) is a fire hazard. Replacing a battery costs thousands of dollars, if even available. No thanks.
A note on disposal of lithium batteries in landfills. Lithium does not need exposure to air in order to burn when in contact with water. It forms lithium hydride and releases energy “vigorously.” Interesting to be married to a chemist who is a retired government scientist. One learns a lot that one wishes one didn’t know.
As noted, several issues. However, I do not think the net supply of electricity will be the problem, its getting that electricity into the vehicle in a reasonable amount of time. It's burst energy.
On a standard outlet, 20A 115V, that's an (efficient?) ~2kw. a 30Kw battery (BMW Mini SE) means to fill it 2/3rds will take 10 hours with less than 100 mile range (napkin math).
(I must admit, I'd thought about the Mini, but with such a small range, no thanks. An associate has a Tesla Plaid. Doesn't have a charger at home, just plugs it in to an outlet. Can't afford to drive it to work every day...because it takes too long to charge.)
A 50A 240V feed gives you ~10kw (literally, 12, but you ain't getting that in reality). 2 hours to charge the same. These 'fast chargers' need massive conductors and local transformers to give that burst capacity. You will often see a mini sub/transformer close to a tesla supercharger station.
From a safety standpoint, if you can feed in 10, 20, 100kW or whatever into a car, it also has the same ability to get out of the car (don't let the smoke out, as they say - and it'll be a lot of smoke).
If I had taken Calculus, physics, and chemistry, then I wouldn’t have the electric vehicle participation ribbon!
That's why you want an electric car with its own charger.
The coolest thing about EVs are the jobs they provide to children in Congo who mine the cobalt needed for their very heavy batteries. Second coolest is the blighted landscape of a lithium mine finally it’s watching the third car in line at the sole charging station. Can’t be more environmentally with it.
I've installed a free 50 Amp line in each garage of my last 3 new construction spec homes here in Austin, home of Tesla, and they all remain capped off behind nicely labelled screw-on cover plates, rather than connected to chargers for the owners or their guests. "Build it and they will come," someone said. How about, "Next house this will be a high-priced optional upgrade for the buyer to pay me for, if they want it."
Eventually, soon, virtue-signalling businesses that offer a few free charging stations at work for their hundreds of employees will add a credit card reader to them, to avoid both the squabbles between midlevel managers over who charges when, and the cost of the free juice.
In the US, it takes approximately 5-7 minutes to "charge" a gasoline vehicle to full capacity.
Well, there you go. The solution is obvious. Liquid electricity.
If you want to use the government numbers, small range EVs charge about the same rate (miles/hr) as the long range EVs. I had a hard time buying this because a small range EV weighs about half as much. I think the government is really only lying about the city range, as the highway efficiency is great for high-end EVs. They have great aerodynamics since they reduce the frontal area without a big gas engine to hide. All the internet cares about is how far can an EV go on the highway so the EPA is getting away with it. Edmunds tested a bunch of cars stressing city driving a little more than the EPA does and it shows weight matters. So, for example, a Mini Cooper SE has a range of 150 miles vs the 110 per the EPA. For an urban commute, say less than 75 miles, you can charge it overnight with 10 amps and 120 volts.
"What a nightmare! I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically, and the rate of change is pathetic."
I'm sure the government will have no trouble solving the problem. Of course, the solution will be the one the government wants, not you.
Better off with a horse and carriage, some hay and water. Forward into the past!
"Electric cars will be like that."
No, electric cars will NOT be like LED bulbs. There are multiple nasty problems that all need to be solved before EVs are viable for long-distance travel:
1. Range from a single charge is much too low (and increasing Range adds too much cost and weight in batteries).
2. Re-fueling takes way too long at 'fast' refueling stations (and the problem gets worse as EV range increases).
3. There are nowhere nearly enough 'fast' refueling stations.
4. Refueling stations cannot be added just anywhere in the middle of nowhere. You can't just put tanks in the ground and have a tanker truck come and fill them up. Instead, you have to run expensive high-capacity grid connections to every little podunk station. Or not have little podunk stations.
5. Refueling from 'fast' chargers too often will damage batteries.
6. There is not nearly enough capacity on the electrical grid for a mostly EV fleet (both in terms of overall generating capacity and distribution)
7. EVs do not pay road taxes on 'fuel' (but cause more road wear and tear due to extra weight compared to the equivalent gasoline powered model)
And that's not counting any environment issues related to EV production and disposal.
All EVs by 2030 or 2035 is just not going to happen in the US (or any state larger than Rhode Island).
"All the energy created by burning gasoline and diesel fuel will have to be replaced by electricity generated to charge batteries."
I keep hearing this. And although in one sense it's true, it's not what's going to happen. All the energy created by burning gasoline and diesel fuel will not be replaced by electricity. And since there won't be enough electricity to power everyone's car, you won't be allowed to have one. The plan is to get people out of their cars. If you've been listening, they've been saying it for years and this is how they'll do it.
Lithium does not need exposure to air in order to burn when in contact with water. It forms lithium hydride and releases energy “vigorously.
Here is the reaction in water.
2Li + 2H2O -> 2LiOH + H2
Very exothermic, and the hydrogen gas produced makes it explosive, too. Of course, the hydrogen can then also combust in the presence of air adding to the fire.
"Of course, the hydrogen can then also combust in the presence of air adding to the fire."
Always good to have options.
when EV's are eventually put up on cinder blocks by trailer park rednecks will it be done with lifting jacks powered by electrickery?
I love electric cars. From a mechanical standpoint, what is not to love? No moving parts other than a simple rotary motor. Only wear parts are bearings which should last 100m miles and should be easy to replace.
I even like battery cars in some applications such as city fleets.
I would never own a battery car. Charging issues, fire, lifespan and cost of the battery and more. I don't see those being solved in my or my grandchildren's lifetime.
Until they can figure out a way to get the juice to the car on the go, with no battery, or perhaps a small, 20 mile battery to get through short areas of no juice, I do not see electric cars as ever being feasible.
John Henry
You can get horse feed anywhere, but there are barely any gas stations!
-The Althouse Almanac, 1907
I have an electric car. For everyday use it's phenomenal. Quiet, clean, quick, fun to drive, cheaper to maintain (cut fuel cost by 80%, brakes last forever due to regenerative braking, no oil to change, etc), and we have a "gas station" at our house. The hassle level is substantially lower than a gas car. Also if you leave a light on in the car all night it will still start in the morning (drained about 9% of our battery last week).
Obviously it's the long drives that make you think. For anything 200 miles or under for mine, it's a non-issue. I took it to my parents house 180 miles away, plugged it in to a regular outlet when I got there, and it was full two days later when I drove back (recharging is slow on a regular outlet, about five miles an hour). Could have taken it to a local rapid charger but there wasn't need.
If you go on a lot of drives that are longer than the comfortable range of the car, or if road tripping is a big part of why you have a car, it's not for you.
If 99%+ of your drives are within range (as is the case for the vast majority of Americans), and if you're willing to deal with some hassle on very long road trips, or, like most American households, have two cars and keep one as gas or hybrid, there should be no problem right now.
People definitely underrate the hassle and expense of gas car ownership though. You're just used to the hassle.
You people are clueless...we can never go to 'all electric' anything without rationing or full government control.
Once you get rid of your ICE vehicle, Musk or some technocrat can just turn off your EV...
Lol. “Just put a charger in your garage.” We paid an electrician $500 to install a 50 amp plug for our RV. We notice a bump in our bill when we have it plugged in for a day or two when we’re loading or unloading or cleaning. Can’t imagine what that would look like if we were charging an EV every night. Or what it would look like to have our entire block or city do the same. The electrical grid can’t even keep up with extreme weather. This is all absurd.
I’m tired of being lectured by unserious and hysterical people
Renewable, intermittent, unreliable energy. Socially incongruent charging times, economically nonviable rapid energy depletion, and environmentally reduced life time with unmanageable waste. They can't compensate with storage. They believe they can compensate through redistributive change. A niche solution at best, made profitable through labor and environmental arbitrage, and redistributive change. A Green blight for the cause of a sustainable anthropogenic mythical climate stasis.
This is not technology many of you raisins will have to worry your heads about- gas stations are not going away any time soon, even in Europe. Besides, you'll be dead before you'll be able to take delivery of some of the most popular EV models, anyways...
...but as a counterpoint to address some fo the concerns:
- Road trips with EVs DO require calculations by the driver. Yes, the car can estimate the most appropriate places to stop and for how long, but many factors like temperature, wind, passenger/cargo weight and 'true' battery capacity remaining that do alter the calculations. There are more sophisticated online calculators like ABRP that help a great deal. Experience on an existing route removes much of the guesswork and the math becomes second nature...
-If during a road trip you're stopping at one place for an hour and/or to charge your batteries to at/near 100 percent, you're doing it wrong. Battery management software at the station and in the car follow 'charging curves' which optimize charging to avoid fires and improve battery life. Pulling in to a fast charger with an empty battery means you can charges at the fastest rates until the speed is 'throttled'. In practice that means you can usually get an empty battery to about 50 percent in 10-15 minutes. Experienced EV drivers stop and drive on once the charging speed begins to drop off. So that ten minutes gives you 150-200 miles of range. Not far for you diaper - Cannonball runners but my passengers are gonnna need the pee break or want to stop at Buck-ee's anyways....
-Adoption of EVs is going to take decades. As the fleet percentage increases we have many many years before we need conversations about additional generation capacity. HOW COULD THAT BE? you say since we run out of electricity already!!???!! The answer is - we already have a surprising amount of extra capacity...at NIGHT and WEEKENDS and in NOT SUMMER when we aren't' cranking the air conditioners. Peak to trough on most days is almost 80 PERCENT in most places- people don't need much electricity at night, which dovetails nicely with charging up while we're sleeping...and ConED has almost 20 PERCENT of their generation capacity sit idle for over 350 days/year. Why? It isn't needed except on the 10 or so hottest days of the year, and then only for a few hours...
-Home chargers are not usually DC fast chargers (thought they do exist) but rather charge more slowly, like overnight. Good for battery life
-many people don't take lone road trips. Tesla once revealed over 90 percent of the driving Teslas owners do is within 50 miles of home. A self-selecting group, no doubt but there's a bunch of us out there who drive like that and an EV makes a lot of sense. I like that I don't have to jockey for a pump at Sam's Club like I'm a sailbost at the start of an America's Cup race...
- I know much of the debate about EVs is politics. If you know my politics you know I'm not with my political peers on EVs. I think you're getting it wrong...
-If you don't want an EV don't buy one...
I've contemplated buying an EV, but only to use for regular commuting. We would keep my wife's gas-powered SUV for vacations, road-trips, and other longer drives. No way I would travel more than an hour from home in an EV.
Back when I was single, I once contemplated whether I could save gas money by buying a Vespa or similar scooter. They get like 100mpg. I would only have used it on my daily 15-minute commute. I did the math, and even at a time when gas prices were relatively high, it would have taken me 3-5 years, minimum, before the savings would have recouped my costs.
when EV's are eventually put up on cinder blocks... will it be done with lifting jacks powered by electrickery?
In between normally oriented sunshine and outside the viable range of convection currents, electricity sourced from windmills powered by one-horse power breeders.
Very exothermic, and the hydrogen gas produced makes it explosive, too. Of course, the hydrogen can then also combust in the presence of air adding to the fire.
Catastrophic anthropogenic climate change forced by a virtually perpetual process with few and far between mitigating measures. Ok (no pun intended).
That's why you want an electric car with its own charger.
Diesel generators are preferred hedges for high availability applications.
No, electric cars will NOT be like LED bulbs. There are multiple nasty problems that all need to be solved before EVs are viable for long-distance travel:
Yes, long-distance travel, and viable utility in high-density population centers. A clear and progressive inequity and exclusion problem that is intrinsic to diversity coupled with low-density, renewable, intermittent, unreliable energy production. So far, a multi-trillion dollar industrial complex, with labor and environmental arbitrage, to reach flatline. Nice (pun likely inferred).
"If you don't want an EV don't buy one..."
And when Gov. Hairgel says you don't have a choice of anything else?
Blogger Wince said...
Serious question: Whatever happened to hybrid cars?
The woke green left does not want practical solutions. They want perfect solutions (where they get to define "perfect".)
The plug in Prius hybrid is quite practical. It has enough battery life for most commutes and errand runs. If you exceed the modest battery range the internal combustion (IC) engine kicks in. It also kicks in to run the heater in winter and run the A/C in summer. The modest battery range reduces the grid issues for charging.
The problem? You can't virtue signal with an IC engine in your car.
The left is doing for the automobile what they did for high speed rail.
In the 70s and 80s I was of managing a $100m+ monthly electric bill. I am very familiar with demand charges.
I had never thought about them or read about them in the context of battery car chargers until the other day. I really should have and feel embarrassed I did not.
Residential electric customers generally have the demand charge folded into the KWH rate. Industrial and commercial customers pay a separate demand charge based on the maximum consumption in any 15 minute period during the month. Some variation in details between utilities but generally something like this. It pays for the fixed capital and maintenance A/K/A overhead of providing sufficient capacity to the customer. This is addition to the per KWH charge for consumption.
This article explains how demand charges will totally screw the bottom line of any gas station/C-store that puts in chargers. It shows dollar calculations.
https://www.power-sonic.com/evesco/reduce-demand-charges-with-battery-storage/
It give the example of a gas station that installs a single 50KW supercharger. It assumes a demand charge of $30/KW.
The gas station might be paying a normal demand charge on 20KW, so $600/month. Now a Tesla pulls in, hooks up and starts charging at 50KW. Bingo! The demand charge is now increased by $50 or $1500 for the month. That $1500 charge is whether or not any other cars use the charger at all during the month.
The company behind the article sells batteries which can be charged slowly, perhaps at night when other usage is low and not increasing the demand peak/charge. That is fine and certainly works but now the gas station is on the hook for capital and operating costs of the batteries.
In other words, I don't know if the owner would save money overall. I don't think it is knowable without knowing how many hours a month the charger will be in use.
I am also not sure if the idea of a fire source like batteries, especially an inextinguishable fire source like LI batteries, is a good idea in close proximity to large sources of gasoline.
Impact of demand charges seems like a serious issue that more people need to be mentioning.
This is on top of whether the distribution system, from the gas station wiring, pole transformer, distribution and transmission HV lines, and the generator itself can handle the additional load. That's an entirely separate issue that I and others have mentioned here before.
California is already rationing electricity for car charging. Mostly voluntarily for now with some brownouts & blackouts. But it is rationing nonetheless and we need to call it what it is.
John Henry
Support LGBTQ
"Can’t imagine what that would look like if we were charging an EV every night."
We charge ours overnight once every five days or so, and that's with a cap on charging of 80% (for battery health), and not letting it drop below 20-25% to avoid any concern about range. It's about $5 per charge. So that's $30 per month. Versus $60 per fill for our CRV, about the same frequency, which is $300 per month.
How much time, money and hassle are you spending on your gas car?
Here is a news story about an EV trip from Cheyenne to Casper, WY. Interstate hiway all the way. This 178 mile trip takes less than three hours in a normal vehicle. The EV took 15 hours.
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2022/10/18/electric-nightmare-ev-owner-details-15-hour-nightmare-trek-in-wyoming/
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...
Lol. “Just put a charger in your garage.” We paid an electrician $500 to install a 50 amp plug for our RV.
Parts for this are easily obtained at home depot for about 50$.
And it takes about 30 minutes, maybe an hour to install...
Toyota has been pushing hydrogen electric vehicles which can fill up in just a few minutes. Also hydrogen can be cracked at the filling station from electricity and water and stored on site. Some really powerful people must be heavily invested in lithium.
Totally misleading. My brother has a Tesla, I use it when I'm visiting my mother in Calif. You plug it in when you get home. I have never once needed anything else, never needed to find a charger, even when I drive to LA more than an hour each way. It just doesn't happen unless you're travelling somewhere else. If you are, I understand that there's a learning curve, but my brother (who travels often) says it's no problem if you know what you're doing, and it keeps getting easier.
That's not including the high price of gas, and the inconvenience of going to a gas station. I literally do nothing but plug it in at home.
Tesla continues to ramp up production and soon will be at par with the major auto producers. Wait till you start reading articles about how hard it is to find a gas station.
This seems like one of those kneejerk issues where conservatives have a "side", but it's the wrong side. This is a one-way change.
You can do it guys! Use your hatred for those who hate Elon Musk, to love Tesla.
rhhardin said...
That's why you want an electric car with its own charger.
My brother and I put together an electric car that had a gas generator mounted in it. We didn't get the super cap to get completely set up but this is the car I want to finish in the future.
A lot of efficiency loss that internal combustion engines suffer happens because of the variable engine speed. Running a generator at optimum RPM's that kept a super capacitor charged would save you money on long trips.
"If the regulators had waited just a few years, LEDs would have already been more available, CFLs would have been the minor player they deserved to be, and people would have more easily given up incandescent bulbs."
LEDs became better and more available because of the regulation, not in spite of it. Greater efficiency is in everyone's interest. Government sets the target, which generates market for bulbs with high efficiency and great lighting, which is what we all have now. No loss of lighting quality (or even a gain), lower electric bills, much less need to replace bulbs, and you're complaining because... Why?
Look, her first mistake was trying to do that trip in a VW. Just like the guy who tried to traverse WY in a Nissan Leaf.
Teslas are different. For one thing, their range is significantly (as in 2-plus-times) greater on a charge. For another, they have their own charging network, which is pretty sensibly designed. It's not evenly spread everywhere, but then neither are Teslas. The West Coast is very thoroughly covered, and the rest of the country is following.
It's quite true that there is no way to expand ownership such that everyone can own a Tesla, even a Model 3. There aren't, even in Elon Musk's imagination, gonna be enough superchargers for that. But at the moment they are excellent for drivers who want and can afford them.
So, we have a Model S, have had it for 6 or 7 years. We installed a 240V outlet in the garage. It's our only car, and gets used mostly for commuting to my husband's workplace (in the next county), trips around town, and fairly frequent runs up to Portland (we're in Salem, a bit over an hour south). But we have done several road trips of 10-11 hours' driving time each way, mainly to the Bay Area and south, where my husband has family. Generally we split the drive in half, stopping in Yreka or so and finishing up in the morning. Which is exactly how we handled our move up to Salem from Novato, CA in the first place, in a Mini Cooper.
Have we ever needed to wait for a charger? On one trip we did, b/c there was a Tesla drivers' convention in (I think) AZ, and so lots of us were following the same route down for part of the way. Other times, no, though usually there are a few Teslas plugged in at most charging stations.
In short: For us, it's a fine car; it works as an only car if there aren't two commuters; and road trips are quite possible and not significantly more taxing than in an ICE vehicle. I can't vouch for any non-Tesla EVs, but my impression is that they are in a different and more specialized league.
Physics is a bitch. Democrats are pretending they can violate Newton’s laws and it’s working as expected. Same way Biden bragged about his economic plan braying “Milton Friedman isn’t running the show now” but once more Milton was right about inflation and Joe’s been very very wrong. Expect to get more gooder and harder until we learn to overcome the DNC fraud machine.
the rate of change is pathetic
Well, it turns out that you can't legislate physics (or geology for the rare materials needed for batteries and electronics) after all.
Ten minute chargers, with a dozen people waiting in line ahead of you.
Here in Santa Clara county, not unusual for household to have four or five daily vehicles. The kids have grown and cannot afford to move out due to housing costs.
Most cars parked at the curb.
Eventually,with improvement in battery life and charging system electric will be more practical.
BTW, how much does it cost to replace a battery, and how much mileage/years will they last?
Quick search on Craigslist of (gasoline)cars for sale in bay area with over 150,000 miles garners over 5,000 results. 1.200 of those, over 200,000miles. Almost 200 of them amazingly over 300,000 miles. Four Teslas over 150,000. Two have had battery replaced already,, one has 80 mile range and needs a battery replacement.
First Google result for battery replacement:
"So, how much is Tesla battery replacement cost for Model S? Since there are many trims and battery sizes, it is hard to pin down a cost. However, the cost of a battery may range between $12,000-$15,000. As the labor cost differs, expect to pay between $20,000 and $22,000 as the total cost!"
No doubt it can be less but still expensive.
.
Daniel12 is a big fan of his electric car, but admits it is not for those who drive beyond the mileage range.
There are a lot of false sales hype on electric. Pointing out the lower cost of upkeep is one. Sure, maintenance costs are much lower until the battery needs replacing and don't forget the premium price on the initial purchase. Cost of ownership is still higher for electric until batteries last longer and/or come down in cost.
The other hype is the range. If the range is 200 miles, you don't get 200 miles. First, you don't plan on recharging at 200 miles, you have to have a reserve. You can't walk to the charging station for a can of electricity. Second, there are variables that reduce the rated range. The tested F150 could only do 90-110 miles hauling a load. Third, fast charging won't get you back to the 200 mile range.
No worries though, the government will just mandate electric vehicles, but provide "free" charging stations that will come from deficit spending. No worries about getting the stations on the grid as they will be fueled by diesel generators. Don't worry about not having enough electricity on the grid for everyone to have an electric car.
Now, if all of this doesn't make sense to you, just keep your mouth shut or your anti-green speech will be banned. Your social media score will be reduced and you won't get your allotment of electricity.
People definitely underrate the hassle and expense of gas car ownership though. You're just used to the hassle.
There are lots of options to deal with hassles of ICE ownership. Get back to us when you’re first battery replacement is due and if you already know please enlighten us on the recycling process.
Those fast chargers are only for Tesla, that company owned by Musk who is evil. Tesla had to deal with a few car fires over the years but figured out how to transfer that much energy in a short amount of time through a wire with setting everything aflame. GM instead offers a $6,000 rebate if you promise to never sue them if your car burns down, especially if it burns down in your garage thus burning down your house.
don't let the smoke out, as they say - and it'll be a lot of smoke
Must keep the magic smoke in that keeps it alive. How do you know that smoke is magic? Because when that smoke gets out, the car dies and never works again.
are the road warrior magazines such as Car & Track etc. doing any honest reporting on this vehicular power technology and exhibits?
tech fantasies - definition/commentary
NOUN
The belief that technology is comparable to magic in that because you see one aspect of the tech, you then believe all hype as being either true or imminent.
These include but are by no means limited to:
1) Magical thinking that one tech encapsulates any related information such as all landmarks being in GPS empowered maps despite the lack of time to do so.
2) The "It's not rocket science." approach of transferring the level of one technology to another without understanding the complexities of either referent.
3) Anything new is the bestest evawhr without fully comprehending the limitations (EVs or programming languages).
4) Road surface technologies which have been hyped relentlessly and as yet failed miserably at every attempt even though the attempts were not traveled roads but walkways.
All this has happened due the falsely instilled narrative that one should trust the developers. The most recent and obvious example being all the dust surrounding the "vaccines", ranging from 'they stop infection and transmission' and 'only require one shot' to their actual dangers.
The trust has been eroded by government forces promoting those lies and mandating the "vaccine's" acceptance and further in learning the "vaccines" were never trial tested. This is not isolated as the food pyramid was more or less a prototype.
Much of this is obscured by computer modeling being promoted as accurate, leading to the belief the models should dictate our actions. Climate and contagion models are two example of the complexities of the models being out of reach for the average citizen which hides the ugly facts that the models have numerous variables that are simply guesses and fatal faults such as climate modeling having no actual starting point as well as 'fudge factors'.
***
MIT Climate Portal
They [climate models] usually have “resolutions” of hundreds of kilometers[100K = 62mi], meaning they can only show climate trends on a very large scale: for instance, they can model temperature changes in New England, but not in Rhode Island.
***
Add to this that the cells are "smoothed" into five or more adjacent cells during modeling.
Another problem is the cycle times for things such as the North Atlantic and Gulf Streams which take hundreds of years and the lack of accounting for cloud cover or sun variability at all. And, of course, cherry picking data a la M. Mann.
There is no way that EVs will ever be practical. They are great for virtue signaling in LA. That is until the electricity shuts off and they can't charge them.
One must wonder how we got enough gas stations to fuel the growing demand by Model-Ts.
MayBee said...
We were also talking to someone in the field and told him we had doubts about not only getting where we'd want to go, but then getting home. He asked for an example city. We said "Chicago"
Not a problem! He said. All the hotels have charging ports.
Well, how many charging ports? Enough for all their guests? What if I want to pay less for parking than the hotel charges? What if I'm not even staying at a hotel, but at someone's home and I have to park on the street?
Urban street parking seems like the one of the biggest flies in the electric car ointment, but maybe I'm just not a visionary.
While you may need or want to drive from Chicago to St Louis or Phoenix to El Paso, the people who are pushing this stuff will never have to drive farther than the airport their private jet is parked at if they want to go from Seattle to Los Angeles. Nothing wrong with your vision, MayBee. You're just not privileged enough.
“If you don't want an EV don't buy one...“
NY and California have already completely banned the sale of ICE cars after 2035. They will be progressively phased out up to then. I expect most other states will follow suit. In any case, the manufacturers can see the handwriting on the wall and you can expect to see the supply of ICE cars dry up well before then.
The US embargoed Cuba in 1960 and today the majority of cars in Cuba are 60 year old American cars, lovingly maintained. Coming soon to a country near you.
@professor-althouse
Do I remember correctly you own and use an EV bicycle?
Why is the height of a passenger reported as a determinative factor in the size of a vehicle LOAD?
Given that diesel locomotives are essentially "hybrids" (fuel is burned to run generators that in turn power electrical motors) it surprises me more small private vehicle manufacturers haven't embraced hybrid tech. Toyota Prius and now the Ford Maverick and anything else famous?
Go straight from a single industrial utility's wind turbine to a garage... how many hours of average wind to charge the average EV?
"I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically,"
Well..they certainly are trying, despite PR stunts that result in Saud kicking Joementia in the balls.
I wonder if those reckless efforts will ultimately undermine support for climate hysteria and associated pricey products.
Somewhere in here needs to be discussion about the raw materials, who has them and replacement costs.
This is a pretty decent watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOiHA6NiqZU
Btw, I remember working a gig at Harley HQ in Milwaukee, a fairly big wig telling us that their new (a few years ago) electric Harley was going to explode in popularity since battery tech was a few months away from a quantum leap.
Only four chargers in Findlay, OH. Good to know that I shouldn't rent an electric car if I go to visit family there.
EVs are reasonably good urban solutions. Our political betters are trying to force them on the rest of us. Apparently the voters don't want to punish our betters. This will not end well.
-If you don't want an EV don't buy one...
Tell that to the government thugs in states that've banned the sale of new gas vehicles by 2035.
"What a nightmare! I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically, and the rate of change is pathetic."
Anyone living in a climate that can get cold, should consider that internal combustion engines generate loads of extra heat that gets routed inside to keep us warm. Electric cars have to deplete the battery to generate heat. That can significantly decrease range.
Since electric cars are charged by a grid powered mostly by fossil fuels, the environmental benefit is debatable. Just like ethanol added to our gasoline, electric cars are an environmental gesture with no practical value. Until the US builds a few dozen nuclear power plants, electric cars are stupid. We recently learned that recycling plastic is pointless, and in a few decades, we will learn the same thing about electric cars.
Why do you have to do "homework"? Why doesn't the car do all the calculations and show you where you need to go and how long it will take?
Two main possibilities here:
1: The people making these things are incompetent boobs, who never thought of providing that basic feature
2: The answers their system would provide are so depressing that they don't want to release software the tells people "our product sucks"
Other possibilities:
Chargers shut down / break on a regular basis, and there's no network set up to report that. So they dont' want to assume the legal liability of telling you "you can make it to here", and then have "here" be down, thus they've nuked your entire trip
EVs suck
I have two Teslas - one Model 3, one Model Y, both less than three years old - after 40 years of owning ICE vehicles (a mix of manual shift and automatic shift over the years) so I’ll add my thoughts to the mix:
First, the limitations:
(1) We live in a near-perfect climate for battery-electric vehicles (BEVs): pretty much never gets below about 40 deg F, pretty much never gets above 85 deg F, so we don’t have to worry about range degradation in cold weather, or excessive use of A/C in hot weather, but the majority of the US will have to face that problem, and it’s significant.
(2) We also have a home with an attached garage, with a 240VAC 48 amp (max continuous use per code; the breaker on the circuit is 60 amp) “Level2” charging adapter; the AC charger is on the car, so properly speaking, this is a charging adapter, even though we all say “wall charger”. Teslas have shown no spontaneous-combustion issues, so I’m not concerned charging in the attached garage. And I get really cheap overnight charging - ten cents per kWh! But, at least a third of the US car-owning population doesn’t have access to Level 2 charging at their dwelling, so charging becomes a real issue; using L3 charging (e.g., the Tesla Supercharger network) isn’t too bad but it’s not all that much cheaper than putting gas in an ICE vehicle.
(3) Range has not been an issue for us so far; if your daily drive doesn’t exceed about 230-250 miles total, in favorable temperatures, winds, elevation changes, etc., and you’re either returning home at day’s end or will be staying somewhere with easily-accessible L2 and/or L3 (aka “fast”) charging, then you’re good. Such has been the case for us so far. Any longer trips in the last couple of years have involved company-mandated rental cars (my employer really doesn’t like employees using their personal cars for work) or have been far enough where flying is the best choice. But again, there are certainly lots of people for whom our situation does not hold, and for whom the combination of much lower “one-tank/charge” range, orders of magnitude fewer places to charge a BEV, and an order of magnitude increase in recharging speed compared to ICE vehicle refuel speed…sounds onerous to me. (That is usually called “range anxiety”, but I think that sobriquet is misleading - it’s the combination of relatively-low range, relatively-long recharging times, and (most importantly) orders-of-magnitude less availability of reliable charging locations that drives the “I’m gonna get stranded in that thing!” reaction. And it’s a reasonable fear, for much of the country.)
For the upside: driving the electric powertrain is addictive; our “fuel” cost per mile is only 20% or even less than the reasonably-efficient ICE cars the two Teslas replaced; scheduled maintenance is nil. In justifying the higher purchase price than a near-equivalent ICE vehicle, I had done several total cost of ownership projections, and we’re currently under those, largely due to even crazier fuel costs than I originally figured on. And there was zero federal or state incentives in play for these purchases. The two biggest issues I have with the Teslas are the lack of Apple CarPlay and the lack of a native SiriusXM solution, but we knew both of those going in and agreed it was livable.
As far as “helping the planet”…balls to that :-)
Summary: the two BEVs are great for us; your mileage may vary, literally and figuratively :-)
So I can envision a fairly-robust BEV market, concentrated in the south and far west of the US, over the next 10-20 years, but it won’t come close to replacing ICE vehicles without highly-coercive government hand-up-the-backside of the market. Which is already happening, unfortunately. Batteries will continue to improve incrementally, L3 charging stations will get more abundant, but it won’t fundamentally alter the calculus I expounded on above. “Interesting times…”
Skipper said...
One must wonder how we got enough gas stations to fuel the growing demand by Model-Ts.
1: Slowly
2: The main long distance competitor was trains, i.e. mass transit, rather than private conveyance.
Sane people LIKE private conveyances
3: Cars were faster than horse for long distance, whereas EVs are not in any way faster than ICEs
4: The "Energy density transfer rate" of gas greatly exceeds that or electricity, and of horse feed.
OW: you can re-fill a gas tank faster than you can charge an EV, or feed a horse
5: The infrastructure cost of a primitive gas station is significantly less than that of an EV charging point.
Put in a 1000 gallon tank. Fill it once a week. AS you get ore business, pay to fill it more often, or add more tanks
You have to be on the grid to put in an EV charging point. IIRC it's expensive to put one in. Until there's a network of them, your one addition has very little value, unless you're putting yours by where there are already a bunch of others, since people have to be able to get to your charging point before they can charge there
6: If you wanted to go on a long trip with your Model T, you could put a bunch of gas cans in the back, greatly extending your normal range.
That doesn't work nearly so well with batteries
A fast charge gets you to 80% in about an hour, starting at what amounts to empty. Takes another fifteen minutes to get the rest of the way. That's if the stink eye from the guy in line behind you doesn't affect you.
Should look at Sudbury's efforts to clean up their dead zone from decades of mining nickel. Good illustration of what happens and what is required to clean up what happens. And you can contemplate such efforts not happening elsewhere, even when the labor actually gets a paycheck.
rehajm said...
This is not technology many of you raisins will have to worry your heads about
Always good to start off by saying "I'm an asshole"
...but as a counterpoint to address some fo the concerns:
- Road trips with EVs DO require calculations by the driver. Yes, the car can estimate the most appropriate places to stop and for how long, but many factors like temperature, wind, passenger/cargo weight and 'true' battery capacity remaining that do alter the calculations. There are more sophisticated online calculators like ABRP that help a great deal. Experience on an existing route removes much of the guesswork and the math becomes second nature...
1: Once you're driving, the car should be able to figure out all the variables. And the car has access to online weather resources, so should be able to calculate all that ahead of time.
2: Basically what you're saying is that figuring out an EV trip of any length is like figuring out a private plane flight.
Which is A: a lot more complicated than just driving a real car. B: Something for which there's lots of software already written
-If during a road trip you're stopping at one place for an hour and/or to charge your batteries to at/near 100 percent, you're doing it wrong. Battery management software at the station and in the car follow 'charging curves' which optimize charging to avoid fires and improve battery life. Pulling in to a fast charger with an empty battery means you can charges at the fastest rates until the speed is 'throttled'. In practice that means you can usually get an empty battery to about 50 percent in 10-15 minutes. Experienced EV drivers stop and drive on once the charging speed begins to drop off. So that ten minutes gives you 150-200 miles of range. Not far for you diaper - Cannonball runners but my passengers are gonnna need the pee break or want to stop at Buck-ee's anyways....
1: You stop every 2 hours on cross country trips? You dont' go very far, do you?
2: My car has a range of ~400 miles / tank of gas on a cross country trip. Which means I start looking for gas after ~300 miles.
If your total range in 150-200 miles, you're getting maybe 100 before you're starting to look for your next charge. Which means your'e going less than 2 hours between charges.
Or you're regularly completely running out of charge because some little thing surprised you and you ran out of charge.
3: AAA wil bring me a can of gas if I run out. Will AAA come reign you a charge that will get you to the next charging point?
-Adoption of EVs is going to take decades
CA is banning sales of non-EVs in 13 years. Are you ignorant or just dishonest?
As the fleet percentage increases we have many many years before we need conversations about additional generation capacity. HOW COULD THAT BE? you say since we run out of electricity already!!???!! The answer is - we already have a surprising amount of extra capacity...at NIGHT and WEEKENDS and in NOT SUMMER when we aren't' cranking the air conditioners.
News flash: family vacation trips happen during the summer, during daylight hours. Their cars are going to need to be charged during those high usage hours
Peak to trough on most days is almost 80 PERCENT in most places- people don't need much electricity at night, which dovetails nicely with charging up while we're sleeping
Sure, so long as you charge up overnight, drive one charge worth, then stop for the next night. That's won't get you from Reno to Salt Lake City. Which is to say, if you're taking Interstate 80 East, you're completely hosed 2 days in to your trip
and ConED has almost 20 PERCENT of their generation capacity sit idle for over 350 days/year. Why? It isn't needed except on the 10 or so hottest days of the year, and then only for a few hours
Gosh, I wonder, how much does that generating capacity cost per kWh when used? Lots more expensive than the stuff they use more often?
-many people don't take lone road trips. Tesla once revealed over 90 percent of the driving Teslas owners do is within 50 miles of home
Well, yeah, no one buys a Tesla to go on a road trip
They have the real car for that
What you've just established is that the TVs aren't useful for long distance trips, which was the starting point that you were trying to "debunk"
A self-selecting group, no doubt but there's a bunch of us out there who drive like that and an EV makes a lot of sense. I like that I don't have to jockey for a pump at Sam's Club like I'm a sailbost at the start of an America's Cup race...
So you're a snob and a snot. Thanks for sharing
You'd rather jockey for a position at one of those EV charging points, because "there's a better class of people there"?
If you don't want an EV don't buy one
Happy not to. Unhappy to have to pay for the people who ARE buying them
To replace all gas cars will require about 300 gigawatt of additional generation capacity.
About
300 additional large nuclear plants
300,000 additional
40,000 additional square miles of solar panels (not counting alleys between panels batteries switchgear etc)
Then probably another 300gw for trucks Trai sbuses, boats etc.
Then another 500gw for residential heating.
And a whole new grid to carry it.
Or Elon ramps up starlink to beam megawatts instead of microwatts
John Henry
As I wistfully watch the snowflakes, I imagine a ev battery in the garage at 40 below. How does that work?
No loss of lighting quality (or even a gain), lower electric bills, much less need to replace bulbs, and you're complaining because... Why?
Maybe some of us don't like faceless government bureaucrats dictating every facet of our lives?
And while you can list LEDs as a success, how many government mandated decrees have turned out to be complete shit?
Tried to use a new gas can recently? Oh, wait. We won't need those anymore because ... government.
Wow. What a pile-on.
I have a Tesla Model 3 and live in an apartment (so I can't charge at home). That means I use Tesla superchargers exclusively.
It takes about 30-40 minutes every 200 mi or so. Yes, significantly more time than filling your gas tank. I generally socialize, walk around the parking lot, watch Netflix, listen to a podcast, or get something to eat.
The car is a dream to drive and I have driven it all over the country, from New York to Florida, Texas and Chicago.
It cost $55K in 2019, including taxes and the rest. Yes, expensive, though many of my neighbors have gasoline cars that cost more.
It's a mixed bag, but I don't agree with some of the absolutist, borderline angry comments here. Lighten up, guys.
"What a nightmare! I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically, and the rate of change is pathetic. "
It's a feature, not a bug. Can't have so many people traveling freely, especially outside our cities. Freedom to travel is 'free-dumb.' Except, of course, for those deemed to need it.
Here's a road test from 2014 - Tesla vs. Model T.
1915 Ford Model T vs. 2013 Tesla Model S: Race of the Centuries
Not to mention youre riding in a miniature power plant thats hard to put out when it catches fire. Where they getting power from? ("The AC outlet" says the politician) Battery Disposal? Whose backyard?
Will destructive mining for lithium and other rare earths be the cause du jour in 2035?
What happened to the mid 90s cause the Brazilian rain forest? What do trees convert during photosynthesis?
Yeah, science.
"I will end the fossil fuel industry"
Joe Biden.
1. End fossil fuel industry
2. ??????
3. Prosper
“Do I remember correctly you own and use an EV bicycle?”
Yes, I have one but I use my nonelectric mountain bike far more. I don’t like riding around cars and it’s not an off road bike.
I am a recent convert to the "climate change is a real and urgent problem" club. And have started doing more research into EVs, how much they cost, range, how and where to charge, and so on. I love the idea of shifting from ICEs (internal combustion engines). But EVs are not yet a feasible alternative. Although if one lives in a city and uses it primarily for daily commutes, then maybe.
And living in a state like Louisiana does not encourage someone to switch to an EV. Ida left people in this are without power for weeks. Just getting gasoline for generators was difficult to impossible for the first few weeks. I can fill my ICE vehicle in 3 minutes. But it takes an hour to charge an EV enough to go 250-300 miles???
One of my concerns about EVs is if the government wants to shut down political opponents, they can effectively hold their vehicles hostage.
If Western nations shift power grid to mostly nuclear that would make EVs far more attractive, and much closer to being carbon semi-neutral.
If only you could simply pour the power into the car. Like if there were a substance you could put in the car that had tons of energy in it. If only.
My list of abouts should have included some ors.
As in about 300 typical nuclear
Or
300,000 windmills
Or
40,000 square miles of solar panels
Or
Some mix of the 3
John Henry
"The answer is - we already have a surprising amount of extra capacity...at NIGHT and WEEKENDS and in NOT SUMMER when we aren't' cranking the air conditioners."
Will that be true once the fossil fuel and nuclear plants are shut down and you're relying on wind power alone when the sun goes down?
I live in Southern California. Three or four times a year I travel to contests that are more than 400 miles away--one way. That said a good deal of my daily driving (I'm retired) is either local errands, grocery shopping, out to dinner etc. With $5 or $6 a gallon gasoline looking like it's going to stay in California until our Democrat party and enviroweenies wake up a gas efficient hybrid vehicle makes some sense. And a plug in hybrid where you get 25 or 30 miles or so of range on straight electricity (assuming you remember to charge the thing up at home) makes even more sense. For the longer trips, eschew the charging stations and use good old energy dense gasoline.
OF course I'll have to park it outside the garage all the time. No sense burning my home down around my ears.
I bought a Hyundai Elantra new in 2011 and put over 150m miles on it. I gave it to my son last year and he uses it as a daily driver. If I spent $2,000 on maintenance, much of it routine like brakes, oil changes, that would be a lot. I suspect it was closer to $1000 or so but never tracked it. The car just runs and runs and runs.
I replaced it in June 21 with a new Elantra. I paid about $25m all in. At 10m miles, I had averaged 41.3mpg Picture here https://bit.ly/3Gm5UXU Probably about 50/50 city and freeway. On a typical trip across the island, 112 miles, 75% freeway but a big mountain, I got 55.8mpg. There and back on a single tank of gas with plenty to spare. About 400 miles range on a full tank.
I spent a couple weeks riding around in a $50,000 Tesla with a client a year and a half ago. Not much difference in interior or exterior size. Not much difference in features other than the Tesla dashboard. So I would say roughly comparable. Both are roomy comfortable cars.
In 10 years, if I drive 15m miles/yr, I will have used 4,000 gallons of gas at $4/gallon for a cost of $16,000 (round numbers). Let's say battery car fuel cost would be 1/3 or $5,000 in round numbers. The reason that is so low is because of subsidies like no road tax.
I would have saved $11m in fuel cost over the 10 years. I would now have a battery car requiring a $10-20m investment in battery replacement vs an Elantra good for another 10 years with perhaps minor maintenance and repair.
So I would have paid $25m more to buy a car that would have saved me $11m. (ignoring the battery replacement. If I even can in 10 years at any cost)
I am not aware of any world in which that is a good investment.
John Henry
If there was a good way to convert heat direct to electricity, we might be able to put a small nuke in the car's trunk. It would trickle charge a small (25 mile range) battery or capacitor continuously, 24/7, wasting heat when the battery is full. Maybe evencapture the heat for the house.
Maybe we can get Bill Gates and Elon Musk in a race. Gates working on trunk nukes, Elon working on scaling up space based solar power beamed direct to the car.
John Henry
For those with battery cars, what do you do when the car is charging on a public station? That is a serious question.
When I spent the time riding around with a client in his Tesla, we once had to charge the car. The only charger was at a Texas Roadhouse restaurant so that's where we went for lunch. We plugged in, walked acoss the parking lot and ordered lunch. About halfway through, he got a text saying the charge was complete. He got up, leaving lunch to get cold, and went out to move his car.
He told me that if he left the car on the charger after full, he got charged a penalty. I am thinking it might have been 25 cents/minute but don't remember clearly. It did seem like a lot that could add up quickly. I think there was a 10 minute grace period before the charge kicked in.
I think it was a Tesla charger but am not certain at this point.
Am I remembering this correctly? How do you deal with this?
John Henry
Maybe we can import some of the exploited labor that tunnel mine the required cobalt in The Congo and they can run on treadmills at charging stations to speed up the the process. Coal powered electricity is obviously not fast enough, nor green enough. People with electric cars are important. They’ve got shit to do.
I’m sure the miners would be happy to work above ground. Might even give the green virtue signaler a chance to tip these kids.
Maybe it could be like gas stations of old. They could check under the hood. Tire pressure. And have those cool change belts. Wear jumpsuits.
And the charging station could loop Paul Simon’s “Graceland”.
She’s a rich girl....with diamonds on soles of her shoes. He’s a poor boy. Empty as a pocket with nothing to lose.
Achilles, we don’t do electrical work on our house. You DIY all you want but we wanted a licensed electrician. Maybe that’s what you are. Whatever.
Daniel12, I spend basically zero time or hassle on my “gas” car. I drive as much as I want, I tow as much as I want, I put gas in it when it’s empty. I’m not going to spend $25k on a battery for it (you and I have both seen the photos of invoices). That’s the time and hassle, which is, basically none. Sure gas costs but I’m gonna guess my Expedition cost less than your EV. You do you with your short leash and no towing capacity and having to do math on battery capacity but quit fronting like you have some magical superior conveyance.
A diesel powered generator in each electric car would cut out the middle man and mitigate defacing, threatening the environment with a smart network, wind turbine farms, and photovoltaic panel ground cover.
I disbelieve that someone from Columbus would go to Michigan State.
I also disbelieve there are any electric car chargers in Findlay.
"If you don't want an EV don't buy one"
Sure. Tell it to Californians. Coercion and control are the point of the transition, not rational discussion of pros and cons.
"Unhappy to have to pay for the people who ARE buying them."
As far as I can tell, in this long thread none of the EV enthusiasts has offered to repay the scandalous subsidies for the rich and to voluntarily pay their own road taxes, with an increment for the greater damage done by their heavier cars.
I am in favor of real markets, real innovation, real personal choice, with all risks fully assumed by those who benefit, so not at all opposed to EVs in principle. But what we get now is a rigged system and forced transition that inevitably will lead to rationing and further coercion.
But she hadn’t considered that the battery would drain faster when the car was weighed down
THIS, is definitely the FUN PART! You'll get GREAT RANGE...IF
It's not weighted down
It's Not Snowing
It's Not Raining
It's Not Windy
It's Not Cold
It's Not Hot
There isn't a delay, or GOD Forbid! a detour!!!
But STILL! IF
there's a charging station
it's a fast charging station
there isn't a line
It's WORKING
Then, just a 10 or 20 (or 45) minute stop, in the middle of your trip; someplace you Don't want to stop
"What a nightmare! I can't imagine wanting an electric car unless circumstances change very dramatically,…"
That's why they intend to ban gas-cars.
I suspect that EVs, long before they even reach 50% market penetration in passenger vehicles, will run into some very nasty resource contraints. While there is a lot lithium on the planet, most of it that is accessible is in the ocean which just isn't economically viable at its given concentration of 25 micromolar (it takes an enormous amount of energy to concentrate and purfify such a dilute solution- to get 1 kg of lithium metal from seawater would require the concentration of 5.6 million liters of seawater). Right now we depend on a limited supply of brines pumped from the ground in which the starting concentration is much higher, and in locations where we can let the brines futher concentrate in the Sun over a period of 1 to 2 years without having to worry about rain rediluting our solutions.
And, we are yet to reach the point where EV production faces huge competition for resource from the need to have storage for our idiotic green energy electrical production system- such batter backup would consume multiples of lithium production that cars would need.
All in all, I think this idea of a battery car future is going to turn out to be pie in the sky when reality finally hits.
Dave Daiber, who is 6 feet 4 inches tall.
His height is irrelevant. What's he weigh? 175? (That was me in High School). 400?
I live in an occasionally very very cold climate, when battery-supplied power is dubious. But I don't use a car to commute. All those people commuting in a Tesla? I'm more virtuous than they are.
I will feel quite sure of this prediction. In 2035, well over half of the new cars in California itself will be internal combustion ones, it just might be that the residents have to go buy their cars in Nevada and Arizona.
tim maguire said...
And she can only go from Columbus to Toledo!? That's less than half a tank of gas. Why do some people not understand electric cars are for around town. Commuting, things like that. They're not fit for road trips.
***************
OK. Now explain why California intends to make internal combustion cars illegal in only a few years.
How could anyone make road trips when those mandates are in place? Would it end road trips to LA or Vegas?
n.n said...
A diesel powered generator in each electric car would cut out the middle man and mitigate defacing, threatening the environment with a smart network, wind turbine farms, and photovoltaic panel ground cover.
*****************
Riiiiight.... you're driving along aided by a heavy diesel-powered generator, which burns diesel to power your EV battery.
Makes perfect sense!
SNORT
Ten years ago worked on electric Beamer. Nice. Heavy. But when it ran out of juice, it just stopped. At least my erstwhile '56 VW had a kickover on the floorboard for another gallon.
Fifteen years ago right-wingers were hoarding incandescent light bulbs. (I suspect there are a lot of closets filled with incandescent bulbs that will never be used.) LEDs now are the norm.
Electric cars will be like that.
"Right-wingers" were "hoarding" incandescent light bulbs because the government had declared that compact fluorescent bulbs were the anointed ones of the future, and they sucked in every possible way - their light was ugly, they couldn't be used with dimmers, they couldn't be made in different shapes, when they broke they shattered into a million pieces and were toxic, their life was dramatically shortened by power cycling...
LEDs were not contemplated as an alternative. But yup, now they're normal - though incandescent bulbs are still readily available and CFs - which, like today's electric cars, had the government's imprimatur - are hard to find and no one uses them.
So what are today's electric cars like? The government-anointed CFs? Or the unanticipated LEDs? The analogy breaks down immediately.
It'd be kind of cool if today's electric cars were like CFs, because then that means something pretty darn good and definitely competitive with the thing they're intended to replace, though still rather expensive, is in the wings, as yet largely unimagined.
I have a hard time putting them in the same category as LEDs. The main disadvantage of even the early versions of those was cost, and that and their other lesser disadvantages (they weren't bright enough at first and originally they were pretty much only available in a cold blue tone) were quickly dealt with to a great degree. Electric cars still have the same disadvantages they've had all along, with no significant relief in sight.
But the biggest disadvantage they have in policy terms is that the electricity they require still comes from sources the government that has anointed them has declared evil.
LED bulbs actually solved the problem they were supposed to solve - they use far less electricity than incandescents. Electric cars trade one minor environmental issue - tailgate emissions, already mitigated very well - for a bunch of others - increased emissions from power plants that also have to be mitigated, child labor used for mining the lithium they require, toxic waste when those batteries are done, plus the non-environmental and -humanitarian issues of inconvenience, unreliability, and their habit of catching fire and exploding.
Yeah, it's a great plan. EVs for all with hardly any chargers, which take forever. An hour. Sure. And there won't be enough power because of the lack of power plants. Take a bus or a train.
We drove from Newport OR back to Bellevue WA today, a distance of 300 miles. We left at 9:45 a.m., stopped for gas at Costco-Vancouver and lunch at the Burger Bar in Kalama. Arrived at 5:05. I got much better than expect milage from Newport to Vancouver, so I only needed about 7-gallons. We had to wait at Costco for about 20 minutes before we could pull up to a pump, then 5 minutes to fuel-up (Self serve unlike Oregon).
There were 24 pumps to dispense gas. So, Costco can server 24x12 (288) cars per hour If it took an hour to top up the EV, we'd still be in Vancouver waiting for a charging station. The throughput would be 24 cars per hour, not 288. I can see motels opening up around charging stations to serve everyone waiting for a spot. That would be glorious!
EVs are a fantasy for the rich. There is no climate crisis, gas/diesel cars are the only economic vehicles available.
Denko said:
It's a mixed bag, but I don't agree with some of the absolutist, borderline angry comments here. Lighten up, guys.
******************
No, we're not lightening up. Freedom to travel is built into the American psyche. It's even an constitutional right, found by the Supremes in the "privileges and immunities" clause and the 10th Amendment.
I repeat: it's a FREEDOM.
So, government FORCING us to give it up to prevent a computer-generated 1 degree in global warming is tyranny, completely inside pre-historic and historical temperature ranges, is TYRANNY, straight up.
We want to get our kicks on route 66.
So we will not "lighten up". Maybe you should wise up.
Denko said...
"Wow. What a pile-on.
I have a Tesla Model 3 and live in an apartment (so I can't charge at home). That means I use Tesla superchargers exclusively.
It takes about 30-40 minutes every 200 mi or so. Yes, significantly more time than filling your gas tank. I generally socialize, walk around the parking lot, watch Netflix, listen to a podcast, or get something to eat.
The car is a dream to drive and I have driven it all over the country, from New York to Florida, Texas and Chicago.
It cost $55K in 2019, including taxes and the rest. Yes, expensive, though many of my neighbors have gasoline cars that cost more.
It's a mixed bag, but I don't agree with some of the absolutist, borderline angry comments here. Lighten up, guys."
Good on you. It works for you. Now when it comes time to replace the battery-22000 bucks- you should maybe buy insurance now.
My offer still stands. You drive your tesla and I'll drive a 2003 Honda Element from Chicago to LA and I'll get there before you.
The problem is two fold. Energy production and energy storage. There isn't enough energy production to have even 10% of the vehicles on the road electric. Truly efficient ways to produce electricity are antithetical to the environmental left. One of which is nuclear and the other is falling water, ie hydroelectric.
Storage. In order to make electric vehicles truly ubiquitous there is going to need to be an order of magnitude change in how we store electricity. The way we do it now is hugely inefficient in terms of actual storage and in the materials we use for batteries. It takes enormous amounts of energy to mine the materials. A still greater amount of energy to process those materials to make them useful. Even more energy to manufacture the finished product.
The frame and drive train of a Tesla is made from Aluminum. Aluminum is smelted using electricity. Truly enormous amounts of electricity. Roughly the amount of electricity it would take to run a small city. The other is plastics. Plastics are made with petroleum.
Lots of petroleum.
The efficiencies just aren't there to convert a sizeable amount of our rolling stock to electric.
When you can make an electric vehicle the size and weight of a Ford F-150 and charge it in the amount of time it would take to fill a 26 gallon fuel tank you'll have a world beater. Until then your Tesla is just a novelty.
Denko's solution may work for Denko, but
that's a hassle to never charge at home
extropolate the lines when every apartment dweller does the same
John henry said...
If there was a good way to convert heat direct to electricity, we might be able to put a small nuke in the car's trunk. It would trickle charge a small (25 mile range) battery or capacitor continuously, 24/7, wasting heat when the battery is full. Maybe evencapture the heat for the house.
They've had them ready to go, for years now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_for_Nuclear_Auxiliary_Power
NASA has developed a multi-mission radioisotope thermoelectric generator (MMRTG) in which the thermocouples would be made of skutterudite, a cobalt arsenide (CoAs3), which can function with a smaller temperature difference than the current tellurium-based designs. This would mean that an otherwise similar RTG would generate 25% more power at the beginning of a mission and at least 50% more after seventeen years. NASA hopes to use the design on the next New Frontiers mission.
oh extra fun info!
The Soviet Union constructed many uncrewed lighthouses and navigation beacons powered by RTGs using strontium-90 (90Sr). They are very reliable and provide a steady source of power. Most have no protection, not even fences or warning signs, and the locations of some of these facilities are no longer known due to poor record keeping. In one instance, the radioactive compartments were opened by a thief.[6] In another case, three woodsmen in Tsalendzhikha Region, Georgia found two ceramic RTG orphan sources that had been stripped of their shielding; two of them were later hospitalized with severe radiation burns after carrying the sources on their backs. The units were eventually recovered and isolated.[25] There are approximately 1,000 such RTGs in Russia, all of which have long since exceeded their designed operational lives of ten years. Most of these RTGs likely no longer function, and may need to be dismantled. Some of their metal casings have been stripped by metal hunters, despite the risk of radioactive contamination.
Sebastian,
"But what we get now is a rigged system and forced transition that inevitably will lead to rationing and further coercion."
And when that comes about, all the stories in the dinosaur media will begin with ", Unexpectedly, ..."
Rick67 said...
I am a recent convert to the "climate change is a real and urgent problem" club.
Brave of you to admit joining a cult. Which of the many green cult leaders do you follow? Al Gore? Greta? I mean, there's so many to choose from.
In overall life cycle costs and efficiency- hybrids have battery only cars beat all to hell. Overall, transmission losses from the grid are about 10% from line resistance. To service our current vehicle crop, there are over 100,000 gas stations in the USA. And I've been on roads that say "Last gas for 400 miles" that meant- "LAST GAS FOR 400 MILES! When I did my first few cross country trips I had a full 5 gllon gas can in the trunk. Only had to use it once... Where do you put that 5 gallon bucket of electricity? Roads like that still exist, and people still drive down them, and no entrepreneur has yet decided to make a killing by putting a gas station/convenience store in the middle of those 400 miles. And according to a google search there's a 110 mile stretch of I-70 in Utah between exits. Nothing there. Better charge before you enter and hope there's no rain or snow or holdups....
Now, if I were to design a car looking for total lifetime efficiency- a hybrid with all electric drive, none of this gas engine/electric motor transmission coupling. And the gas engine generator set? DEsigned as small as physically possible as a plug in unit. Pull it it out and replace it if it totally craps out. The underbody and frame? Stainless seel, nickel-copper, or other alloys that won't oxidize. All the exposed metal would be similar. More edpensive to build? Yes. But- not rusting out means you can keep it for a lot longer. They've alrady done something like that on exhaust systems. I replaced the exhaust systems and muffler several times on my first few cars. 170,000 miles on my RAV-4, 0ver 150,000 on my son's Prius, which was mine, and they're both on the initial exhaust system and muffler.
There are sevral ways to do the electric drive. Motor in each wheel. One motor, and tranmission and driveshafts. Electrical engineers could design which is simplest and most reliable. IMHO, as a boiler operator not an electrical engineer, I think individual motors fro each wheel would be best. Need repair? Swap the drive unit out with a core charge.
Now, the batteries. Battery technolgy is changing and will continue to change. Don't design the car around the batteries. Put a battery space in, someplace central to place the weight evenly on the wheels, and leave room around them. When it comes time to replace, replace with whatever is currently the bestest, or cheapest. If replaced with exactly the same, no problem. If different, the software will need to be changed for the battery charge. That's all controlled by computer. From experience, my Hyundai Ioniq's battery charging system is very different from the Toyota Prius's I've had. I never got to the lowest charge indicator on the Prius- that's happened a few times on the Ioniq on I-99. I've never gotten to an almost completely full charge on the Ioniq, and there's several times that happened on the Prius's. At 70 MPH, the Prius never went into EV mode. The Ioniq will go into EV mode at any speed.
Building a car that way would incur a much greater initial cost- but a much lower lifetime cost. Too many look at initial cost. In many things. Right now our plant is getting firetube boilers because they're cheaper to buy. They don't last as long, and require more intensive maintenance then watertube boilers. But those are hidden costs down the road. Us boiler operators know the firetubes are really more expensive, but the bean counters don't care... they cost less to acquire.
Ralph Nader once referred to aluminum as "congealed electricity". It was a metaphor, of course, but the point was made.
the various uses of energy in ICE vehicles from mining to running are known and familiar. Hiding some of them, moving them to other places in the succession, fools a lot of people into thinking they don't exist.
Couple of years ago, going west on US 2 in Montana, I noted I was getting about half the usual MPG in my SUV. Wondered. Flat tire I hadn't noticed? Something? Pulled over to look. Could barely open the door due to the west wind. I had, according to the gauge , 200 miles in the tank. At the rate I was burning gas, that would be 100 miles. Because I started out with 400 miles in the tank, I had the required gas left. Had I started out with the actual load in an EV, I'd probably have run out before that.
The OCD types might point out that I made up for that coming off the divide out of Evanston, WY, with a 65mph wind behind me, getting maybe 60MPG. But that was after a trip in which I was not left high and dry in the middle of Montana.
Electric cars for well-to-do virtue signalers who can have a Suburban at home for long trips. Thei impact on the environment is a net negative.
And according to a google search there's a 110 mile stretch of I-70 in Utah between exits
it was Still there, last May
I have known that "climate change is real" ever since I learned about the glaciers. It's also dangerous; if the cooling trend that was underway up until the "blade" of the "hockey stick" had continued unabated, crops would be failing all across Europe and North America by now.
I want an electric car that you can pump electrons into and that a bell rings with every coulomb, and that you could store it in a cheap container so if your car runs out, you can walk to it with more electrons. Until then, I guess I will have to settle for the next best thing.
Gospace describes his dream car, that will never wear out (it's Stainless Steel!)
Building a car that way would incur a much greater initial cost- but a much lower lifetime cost.
So, you plan on replacing the seats when the cushions wear out? (10 years?)
or when the seat covers wear out? (7 years)
how long will your lights last? (no prob! they're replaceable!) what about the wiring connectors?
remember your exhaust, that was lasting the life of the car? Now you'll need to replace THAT too.
The audio speakers? Well, Obviously they aren't going to last forever, either
Seat belt retractors
power windows
instrument lighting
the whole F*cking instrument panel
the computer(s)
the power steering pump
ball joints
tie rods
radiator, water pump, hoses
fuel tank, fuel pump, Catalytic converter
spark plugs, wires,
turn signals, the turn signal shifter
i'm going to stop, 'cause me list is already too long
My point is:
There are LOTS of things on a car, that you NEVER worry about; because the last the life of the car.
Personally, once the ashtray gets full; i trade my car in.
Oh, come to think of it; your USB port? that replaced your cigarette lighter? 10 years from now, your eternal car will STILL have the same USB port you put in it.
What will people be using for ports in 10 years? 20?
As you've said; cars last A LONG TIME, Now.. WHY make them last longer?
" ... and the rate of change is pathetic."
Elon figured this out years ago. Electric cars without chargers are useless so ... he created a network of charging stations, not just at "destinations" but between. It's not a complicated problem but it takes a few minutes with Google Maps and potential-user surveys and a lot of money.
And every owner needs to have an in-home charger.
This is not rocket science. SpaceX is rocket science.
Rick67 said...
"I am a recent convert to the "climate change is a real and urgent problem" club."
Then you don't want an electric vehicle. They are extremely bad for the environment. For the reasons stated above. What you want is an small turbo diesel like Volkswagen makes. The technology is established and very reliable and you can fill up anywhere a diesel truck fills up.
Sooo many constraints on universal EVs. From mining to energy to the grid to charger to fires to range to costs (subsidies)....
But do NOT dare to insert reality into the religious texts of Global Climate Change.
Party of science... feh.
The closest analogy to an electric vehicle is a Medicare Advantage plan. With the latter, never get a serious illness, or get sick out of town.
During the last heat wave in NorCal, PG&E and Newsom notified electric car owners 'not to charge their vehicles overnight' to protect the grid. Multiply that by the 284 million gas vehicles they want replaced. Oh, ok.
Blogger Greg The Class Traitor said…Always good to start off by saying "I'm an asshole"…
good you admitted that upfront, Greg…
Once you're driving, the car should be able to figure out all the variables. And the car has access to online weather resources, so should be able to calculate all that ahead of time.
You mean the way an ICE vehicle calculates all that? Must be nice for you, mine only has a gas gauge…
2: Basically what you're saying is that figuring out an EV trip of any length is like figuring out a private plane flight.
Which is A: a lot more complicated than just driving a real car. B: Something for which there's lots of software already written
Basically what I’m saying is you have to do a little math the first time you take an unknown route. After that it’s second nature- you know where you’re going to stop and for how long. Maybe a little more/less than last time since its more/less cold/windy…but there will be no math…
You stop every 2 hours on cross country trips? You dont' go very far, do you?
I go far sometimes…but I fly. I don’t waste time driving. You seem stretched for time since you don’t seem to have time to make multiple stops either. May I recommend for you something called an airplane for your next cross country trip?
CA is banning sales of non-EVs in 13 years. Are you ignorant or just dishonest?
I can’t help that CA is run by lunatics but that doesn’t have much to do with EVs. CA also mandates hotel owners to put up drug addicts for free and makes private citizens to house the homeless in their back yards. None of which has much to do with the EV as a useful vehicle- you ignorant or just dishonest?
News flash: family vacation trips happen during the summer, during daylight hours. Their cars are going to need to be charged during those high usage hours
News flash only for you- those people aren’t going to make or break the power grid on those days. News flash for you: gas pumps use electricity, too…
Sure, so long as you charge up overnight, drive one charge worth, then stop for the next night. That's won't get you from Reno to Salt Lake City. Which is to say, if you're taking Interstate 80 East, you're completely hosed 2 days in to your trip
Who are you people running back and forth across the country every week? Move closer to where you need to be instead of pretending you’re a long haul trucker…
All of this first-world thinking about electric vehicles assumes that the EV's will replace ICE's so that all of that horrible carbon from burning fossil fuels will never happen.
In the third world, all of that oil in the ground is a very cheap, very efficient source of energy--which is the real basis of wealth--wealth in the pure sense of the opposite of poverty. And will only get cheaper if (hah!) demand in the west goes down.
So regardless of the merits of EV's and/or the utility of mandating them (hah!), that black gold down thar is going to get used. By someone who really needs it. When the wolf is at the door, and you have to feed your people, you don't get too fussy about a degree or two over a century.
rehajm said...
Greg The Class Traitor said…Always good to start off by saying "I'm an asshole"…
good you admitted that upfront, Greg…
Good of you to double down on that
>Once you're driving, the car should be able to figure out all the variables. And the car has access to online weather resources, so should be able to calculate all that ahead of time.
You mean the way an ICE vehicle calculates all that? Must be nice for you, mine only has a gas gauge…
My ICE can access about 100x as many recharging points as does an EV, so I don't need that.
But yes, please continue to demonstrate you approach this with nothing but bad faith
2: Basically what you're saying is that figuring out an EV trip of any length is like figuring out a private plane flight.
Which is A: a lot more complicated than just driving a real car. B: Something for which there's lots of software already written
Basically what I’m saying is you have to do a little math the first time you take an unknown route. After that it’s second nature- you know where you’re going to stop and for how long. Maybe a little more/less than last time since its more/less cold/windy…but there will be no math…
1: Because no charging station is ever down for maintenance or other issues
2: So if you're a loser who never goes anyplace new, an EV is not a problem. Great endorsement there!
>You stop every 2 hours on cross country trips? You don't go very far, do you?
I go far sometimes…but I fly. I don’t waste time driving. You seem stretched for time since you don’t seem to have time to make multiple stops either. May I recommend for you something called an airplane for your next cross country trip?
1: For 2 people, a 6 hour car drive will get you there a lot faster than a plane. Assuming you don't have to stop every two hours or less to recharge
2: Add in two kids, and the cost of that plane trip has at least doubled. The cost of the drive has not
So, if you're a loser who never leaves your city, unless to go to another city 100+ miles away, and you have no kids, an EV is right for you
For the rest of us? It sucks
>CA is banning sales of non-EVs in 13 years. Are you ignorant or just dishonest?
I can’t help that CA is run by lunatics but that doesn’t have much to do with EVs. CA also mandates hotel owners to put up drug addicts for free and makes private citizens to house the homeless in their back yards. None of which has much to do with the EV as a useful vehicle- you ignorant or just dishonest?
I congratulate you for so nicely demonstrating your dishonesty. You left out the part where you wrote "if you don't want an EV, don't buy one." But I guess attempting to be responsible for what you write is too damn hard.
>News flash: family vacation trips happen during the summer, during daylight hours. Their cars are going to need to be charged during those high usage hours
News flash only for you- those people aren’t going to make or break the power grid on those days. News flash for you: gas pumps use electricity, too…
Those people are going to be a significant drain on the power grid if they're doing their summer vacation traveling in EVs.
If they're all using ICEs, then it's because EVs are nothing more than a tiny niche market.
Because only the widely rich are going to buy one car for city driving, and another car for the family vacations.
Sure, so long as you charge up overnight, drive one charge worth, then stop for the next night. That's won't get you from Reno to Salt Lake City. Which is to say, if you're taking Interstate 80 East, you're completely hosed 2 days in to your trip
Who are you people running back and forth across the country every week? Move closer to where you need to be instead of pretending you’re a long haul trucker…
I take it you have no family?
rehajm said...
Who are you people running back and forth across the country every week? Move closer to where you need to be instead of pretending you’re a long haul trucker…
1: FY, and the horse you rode in on.
No, we are not going to change our lives to make EVs "work"
2: Growing up, we had two cars: Dad's sporty car, Mom's family car.
We went on family trips in the car, and we didn't stop every 100 - 150 miles while driving.
We're now agreed that EVs are utterly worthless in the "family car" role, because one of the tasks of the "family car" is "take the family on trips".
No, families are not going to spend several thousand dollars to rent an ICE car for family trips, and they're not going to buy 3 cars, 2 EVs for city use and one family car for trips.
So the dings against EVs in the article Althouse quoted are entirely on target
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