I'm reading "Nils Lofgren Pulls Music From Spotify in Solidarity With Neil Young/'We encourage all musicians, artists and music lovers everywhere, to stand with us all, and cut ties with Spotify,' guitarist writes" (Rolling Stone).
One way to do science would be: Have artists look admiringly at their favorite artists and nod to one another that they're all going to do the same thing at the same time.
I can't get over the paywall at Rolling Stone, but I see the Nils Lofgren is trending #1 over there...
... and that's competing with penis toadstools, so you know it's really important. And the penis toadstools have Katy Perry and this is just Nils Lofgren. Honestly, I don't remember who Nils Lofgren is, and I'm a Boomer. Oh, the E Street Band. I prefer The Penis Toadstools.
Here's the full context of his quote, which is so bereft of a science orientation that it's funny:
"We encourage all musicians, artists and music lovers everywhere, to stand with us all, and cut ties with Spotify... Music is our planet’s sacred weapon, uniting and healing billions of souls every day. Pick up your sword and start swinging. Neil always has. Stand with him, us (Joni Mitchell!) and others. It’s a powerful action you can all take now, to honor truth, humanity, and the heroes risking their lives every day to save ours.
Pick up your sword and start swinging! Don't think, don't study, don't test any hypothesis, just pick up a sword and don't even aim it. Swing wildly! Like Neil. Stand in solidarity with him, because he's always picked up a sword and swung it. That's how you "honor truth" — by wildly swinging a deadly weapon around.
Yes, it's metaphor. Science isn't done by metaphor.
***
Joni Mitchell's statement — at her website, here — said:
Read An Open Letter to Spotify: A call from the global scientific and medical communities to implement a misinformation policy.
From that open letter (boldface added):
The average age of JRE listeners is 24 years old and according to data from Washington State, unvaccinated 12-34 year olds are 12 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated.
The link on the word "data" goes to a document from "COVID-19 Cases, Hospitalizations, and Deaths by Vaccination Status," where you see this:
How do you get "12 times more likely to be hospitalized"? It says 5 times! Here they are demanding censorship of Joe Rogan for spreading misinformation and their short letter contains egregious misinformation? They are so harsh toward someone discussing the facts and maybe getting something wrong, but will they go easy on themselves or will they self-condemn?
If they'll confess that their methodology is looking at their friends and seeing what everyone else is doing and supporting the group that's their group, then I won't call them hypocrites if they say Oh, what's the big deal, so we made a little mistake.
Posts
136 comments:
The Seventies called. They want their Spotify back.
Morris Albert nods.
"Feelings, whoa, whoa, whoa..."
Skepticism, but still featuring feelings over structure...
I fear that women who have grown old are more skeptical in the secret recesses of their hearts than any of the men; they believe in the superficiality of existence as in its essence, and all virtue and profundity is to them only the disguising of this truth, the very desirable disguising of a pudendum - an affair, therefore, of decency and modesty, nothing more.
Nietzsche, Joyful Wisdom 64
Economically what Spotify does is called non-rivalrous. More of one thing doesn't mean less of another for anybody.
unvaccinated 12-34 year olds are 12 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated.
Okay, if i buy 12 lottery tickets...I'm 12 times more likely to win $hundreds of millions
but You Know what? my chance of NOT winning haven't changed. It is a virtual certainty that i won't win
odds of losing buying one ticket (99,999,999/100,000,000) = 0.99999999
odds of losing buying 12 tickets (99,999,988/100,000,000) = 0.99999988
If you ARE NOT going to do something, having your chance of doing it increased by 12 (or 5), does NOT change the fact that you Are NOT going to do it
What are chances of a 12-34 year old NOT going to the hospital with Covid?
Virtually One Hundred Percent. Vaccines (for that age group) are just rounding errors
Now, if you're a 89 year old, morbidly obese diabetic....
"Music is our planet’s sacred weapon, uniting and healing billions of souls every day."
The answer to Young, et al. is to reduce the copyright period so that it matches the patent period of 20 years. It's government power that they're leveraging against Rogan.
The scientific method is based on doubt, skepticism and constant testing of assumptions and results. These yowlers are saying we need to get rid of the scientific method. They have lots of company, as artists and political hacks have the same worldview: I'm right, by virtue of being right.
How's that song go? "It's the end of the world as we know it..."
The age range of 12 to 34 is rather odd.
The range begins with early puberty and ends with middle age.
Nils Lofgren sounds a bit unhinged and histrionic.
How do you get "12 times more likely to be hospitalized"? It says 5 times!
I posted about that yesterday.
The "data" also had some double-talk about why they didn't provide information on deaths for people under 65:
"Deaths are only shown for Washingtonians 65 years old and older due to the relatively smaller number of deaths in other age groups and associated instability in rates when assessing by vaccination status." (pg 10)
Exactly what does "associated instability" mean? The number of deaths is smaller than the errors in counting them? Perhaps unvaxxed people have fewer deaths, and that's "unstable" because it's not supposed to happen...?
These old musicians sure are smart!
Oh, the E Street Band. I prefer The Penis Toadstools
Ann, if you ever complain about snark in the comments section again I shall call on my fellow commenters to pick up their swords and start swinging….
Rumor has it the Democrats are going to stop doing covid theatre cold turkey Feb 1. Come next week these quixotic geezer troubadours are going to look sillier than ever…
I don't blindly trust NYT reporters. Why should I blindly trust pop artists? Why should anyone?
It's all just fodder for the ever-changing front page.
Perhaps she misread 5 as 12? Perhaps it's time for a visit to the optometrist?
A good thing about these letters from 'the global community' is the kooks out themselves...
Althouse woke up on fire this morning!
Brava!
As is most often the case, the error favors the culprit...
"Music is our planet’s sacred weapon, uniting and healing billions of souls every day."
… and they are w/holding it to prevent healing? B/c of information they want w/held….
Sorta like the healing treatments for Covid- that the US gov’t is w/holding… b/c…
I lost it. It was right there- on the tip of my fingers. I’m usually pretty good at explaining illogical reasoning.
Some musician who's name escapes me approached the issue in a more meaningful way: he's putting songs that protest Rogan on Spotify. Doesn't that make more sense? That the old lefty's from the 60s protest actively, write relevant protest songs, rather than withdrawing old stuff that isn't relevant to the issue?
Or consider the alternative. If I really wanted to protest Joe Rogan (which I don't, I can hear things I disagree with without losing my mind or assuming the public is stupid), I'd put my music on Spotify and MAKE you listen to it. You've never heard me play, but I assure you, the prospect should terrify you.
Nils Lofgren? Just the name of a generic, interchangeable, unmemorable blond Scandinavian (or Scandinavian-American) rocker. A Seventies thing ...
In the 60s when these rebels stood up against LBJ’s crazy Asian War which was killing off the draft age Boomers, this solidarity shtick was the heroic stand to take. But these septuagenarian Rockers are trying to relive their heroic days. And this is a different time. Rogan’s crime is having guests with real knowledge exposing the Gates/Soros Gang as the ones killing off the people with designed biological weapons and Pandemic Propaganda.
I disagree with without losing my mind or assuming the public is stupid), I'd put my music on Spotify and MAKE you listen to it. You've never heard me play, but I assure you, the prospect should terrify you.
Are you Nickelback?
How do you get "12 times more likely to be hospitalized"? It says 5 times!
Because this isn't ordinary math, it's Science Math. Don't try to do Science Math yourself. It's really hard. You just have to trust what the experts on experts tell you the experts said. The experts don't have time to talk because we're in the middle of a Pandemic and there's tons of Science Math and other really hard stuff they have to do using The Data. And now they have to worry about misinformation too. They're already tired and have a headache and now this! Wow, Spotify. Just...wow...
These people will be remembered for their ignorance and hypocrisy. They will become the punchline of future jokes. Adjectives used to describe phony people with phony causes. This is the worst kind of virtue signaling.
Look for the biggest virtue signaler of all to appear on this stage shortly: Bruce Springsteen. This has him written all over it. Book it.
Got 'em bracketed Ann, fire for effect.
Can Joni claim the Karen cloak now?
I fucking love groupthink.
Mistaking 5 for 12 is clear evidence that he/she/they didn't read the actual study, but just heard about it from a trusted source. Which thereby makes it true.
“ unvaccinated 12-34 year olds are 12 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID than those who are fully vaccinated.”
How do you get "12 times more likely to be hospitalized"? It says 5 times!
It’s worse than that. The conclusion that they are more than doubling the real risk assumes that “those” refers to vaccinated 12-34 year olds, rather than all vaccinated people. Applying “those” to all vaccinated people is also a natural reading, maybe even a more natural reading, and it has them overstating the risk by several orders of magnitude.
The one Nils Loftgren single I can think of is from 1977, with its reference to "The Supreme Court of rock 'n roll" and "just don't ask me to think."
I took the matter up
With a few million friends of mine
The supreme court of rock and roll
Is doing just fine
Demanding a speech
They poured me a drink
I play guitar all night and day
Just don't ask me to think
I Came to Dance
Well, my manager kept tellin' me
If I wanna be great
I'd better wise up
And sing my songs straight
I said: "Hey fool, in order to survive
I gotta be my dirty self, I won't play no jive"
He told me he'd quit
I said: "Don't jump to conclusions
Maybe bein' staight ain't the right solution
I'm not Bob Dylan but I never miss a beat
I ain't no philosopher, I dance in the street"
Well, I came to dance
Yes, I came to dance
It's a rhythm romance
I'm havin' with my shoes
I've got nothin' to lose
I came to dance
Well, I came to dance
Yes, I came to dance
It's a rhythm romance
I'm havin' with my shoes
I've got nothin' to lose
I came to dance
‘September’ by Earth, Wind & Fire has been played close to a billion times on Spotify. That one song has earned them about $23M from Spotify. Holler when they remove their catalog. Otherwise it’s has-beens and virtue signalers. Nils Lofgren? lol
I saw online, that Yoko Ono is standing in solidarity with Neil Young by adding her music to Spotify. That might be the last nail in the coffin.
On Rogan last week Jordan Peterson talked at length about the power of music. Too bad the artists don't want to hear it. Do any of these censors watch any of these long interviews? Peterson's was over 4 hours long.
You go Nils! Sitckin’ it to the man fighting the man…
Music is our planet’s sacred weapon, uniting and healing billions of souls every day.
Ok Boomer
"They are so harsh toward someone discussing the facts and maybe getting something wrong, but will they go easy on themselves or will they self-condemn?"
Trolling, right?
"If they'll confess that their methodology is looking at their friends and seeing what everyone else is doing and supporting the group that's their group, then I won't call them hypocrites if they say Oh, what's the big deal, so we made a little mistake."
Trolling, right?
I mean, here we have another move in the culture war, progs cleansing the semi-public sphere and trying to scorch the earth, and we have to wonder if they are hypocrites?
Question for musicians, Althouse-style: will you now refuse to play in venues that also host anti-prog artists? Will you refuse to play in cities with Republican voters? Heck, will you continue to tolerate to live in countries that have any deplorable meat-eating gas-car-driving mandate-resisting anti-Faucists left?
traditionalguy said...
I think you're close, but I'd go further.
Culture War II.
The 'ol "I use your morals against you to get power over you. Once in power, I use my my morals against you to.."
Fixating on Spotify, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young, or Joe Rogan is the shiney object.
Ban Alex Jones from twitter? Who cares, that guy is a nut job! Ban a sitting President, a bunch of his supporters, people that say face masks don't work? Start your own twitter! Move over to Parler, then see them get crushed by Google? Well, they should have blah, blah blah!
Pay Pal, GoFundMe target conservatives and conservative causes? Fired from your job for criticizing BLM or Dr. Fauci? Well, should have been smarter. Denied college admission becuase you publicly supported the 2nd Amendment? Plenty of other schools.
This is fine. All isolated incidents. Hasn't affected my life one iota. If all these so called "victims" were just like me, they wouldn't have these troubles. Just like me.
In the meantime I'm going to listen to a Joni Mitchell song. The 3rd most popular one nobody else has heard of.
And "September" contains perhaps my favorite lyric ever ... "Ba de ya". Always feel good singing along to that.
Will Nils and Neil and Joni resurrect "Ramparts" magazine with the first cover highlighting the New New New Left's adoption of worshipping state power, big pharma/tech/media, the military industrial complex and neocon-Perma-War?
We cared so much about what musical artists thought 50 years ago. Less so today. It's still charming to teach 20 year olds how to play Heart of Gold or Morning Morgantown. But 60's politics rarely come up in the musical conversation even as a sidebar. Zoomers aren't much interested in paradise paved or dead students in Ohio as a musical topic. They dearly love the dexterity mechanics of a walking D chord on a guitar.
I think the artists are silly, but I will say that all the commotion got me to pull up my dormant Spotify account, go premium, and listen to Joe Rogan with Bridget Phetasy yesterday afternoon. I had noticed her on Twitter a while back. Interesting and entertaining.
Nils Lofgren? his name seemed oddly familiar but i couldn't place him; so looked at wiki
He's a session musician right? Played backup for Neil Young and Springsteen? Basically NO solo stuff
So... WHAT would HE be taking off Spotify?
The Neil Young stuff is already gone... The Springsteen stuff AIN'T his
He was making, what? $40 a year from Spotify?
Now, Joni... How Long will Joni stay out 6 months? a year?
I'm literally not even sure who Joni IS? Did she do that 'freedom isn't free' song?
As i plagiarized yesterday...
Everyone under 30: "Who's Neil Young?"
Everyone 31-60: "Didn't realize Neil Young was still alive."
Everyone 61+: "What's Spotify?"
I like Nils, but this isn't exactly going to give Spotify pause. I doubt his stuff gets much play there. On the other hand, despite what some people here think, the majority of activity on streaming channels is music by these "has beens." I see Spotify moving towards other media and away from music anyway.
https://tedgioia.substack.com/p/is-old-music-killing-new-music
Taking their music off Spotify isn't enough. These artists should put together a huge, Live Aid style, benefit concert for Pfizer. Fauci could take the stage with Ozzy Osbourne and talk about the bat-human interface.
Did you hear? Nickelback is threatening to leave their music ON Spotify until Rogan leaves
PRESS RELEASE
30 January 2022
I am demanding that Spotify remove all my French Horn recordings from its platform immediately.
Gerda Sprinchorn stands in solidarity with Joni and Nils and Neils (assuming that these last two are different artists and not just a misspelling).
The Aluminum-Walker-Revolutionary-Committee is calling for a direct-action mass-shuffle tomorrow outside Spotify stores at indoor malls across America on Monday at 2:00 pm after my podiatrist appointment. The direct action will end promptly at 4:30 or earlier to allow time to make the early-bird special at Applebee's.
FOUR DEAD IN O-HIO!
"Ann, if you ever complain about snark in the comments section again..."
You assume a fact not in evidence.
Recheck what I've said about the problems that lead me to delete. It's not jokes related to the substance of the post. It's back and forth attacks. If X keeps saying Y is an idiot and Y returns the attack every time and says X is an idiot, it isn't for me in the same category as other kinds of humor.
Plus, my main rule is to respond to the post, and I'm the one who writes in the post, so everything I write (in the post) has special status. It defines the topic.
Misinformation?
Let's start with this idea that swinging swords unite. Swords are made to cleave, to separate, to chop in two.
Taking their music off Spotify isn't enough. These artists should put together a huge, Live Aid style, benefit concert for Pfizer.
Bob Boyd, LOL.
Also hats off to Greta and her aluminum walker brigade.
Now, it may be true that young people are hospitalized 5 times more often if unvaccinated, but certainly those who died or had grave complications caused by the vaccine are ∞% more than the unvaccinated. The quasi totality of young hospitalized go back to life on their legs.
Ergo, it's perfectly reasonable to discuss about vaccination for young people. Sweden very recently decided not to do that, and the decision was made by doctors (aka experts).
Here in Italy it's coming to light that a large number of those hospitalized for Covid were, in fact, not there for Covid. Worse, people recovered with cancer, and found found to be asymptomatic positives, were moved to the Covid ward where they died without the proper therapy. The reason seems to be the money granted by the state for each Covid patient.
So, let's discuss MORE.
Recheck what I've said about the problems that lead me to delete...
Who said anything about that?
Spotify stock down 27% in the last month.
Perhaps their stockholders are less Gung ho than commenters here.
Another way to do science is to simply deny the lethal nature of SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus - regardless of variant. Ignoring the best advice from the same doctors that oversee our health needs, America's population prefers to risk death or long-lasting disfunctions left by the virus.
Per-capita spending from private sources and out-of-pocket costs in America exceed $5,200 annually, which includes voluntary spending on private health insurance premiums and is more than five times higher than Canada - the world's second-highest spender. So we visit with doctors more often but about 40% of us do not follow their medical advice to get the miraculous vaccines shots available.
As Forrest Gump noted in the movie: “Stupid is as stupid does.”
Have all the people who are moving away from Spotify to Apple and Tidal aware that these other platforms also have opinion shows i.e podcasts? Have they vetted all of those podcasts for "misinformation"?
"This is the central problem of any “content moderation” scheme: somebody has to do the judging. The only thing worse than a landscape that contains misinformation is a landscape where misinformation is mandatory, and the only antidote for the latter is allowing all criticism, mistakes included. This is especially the case in a situation like the present, where the two-year clown show of lies and shifting positions by officials and media scolds has created a groundswell of mistrust that’s a far bigger threat to public health than a handful of Substack writers."
Matt Taibbi: The Folly of Pandemic Censorship
They (the chokepoint idiots) tried to go after Substack writers.
I also wonder if Nils or Neil or Joni has ever listened to a single Joe Rogan podcast. I'm gonna guess the answer is no.
I'm a fan and listen to Nils Lofgren. Just had him up the other day. Sorry to see him joining the idiocy brigades but I don't use Spotify and I don't listen to music based on the politics of the players. That means a few more pennies in Mr. Lofgren's pockets when I get the urge to hear "I Came to Dance" again.
*****"Are all the people"***
Maybe Neil should avail himself as a joe rogan guest, with Brett Weinstein or Jordan P or Dr McCullough.
Musicians assessing medical risk for me, as if I’m too stupid to do it myself … who’d have thunk it?
Here’s the deal: if I can sign away *all* vaccine-related risk to those screaming at me to get a vaccine, now we’re talking.
Any takers? Otherwise, STFU.
This is not good for the nation. Too many people running around trying to ban books, ban music, ban ideas, ban CRT, ban Rogan. I think it's a symptom of how emotionally unhealthy our country has become
Do you really expect “those people” to be truthful? They say whatever to bolster their argument. Shut up… you are ignorant and irrelevant.
Jeff Brokaw said...
Musicians assessing medical risk for me, as if I’m too stupid to do it myself … who’d have thunk it?
Many government officials, including the Surgeon General, along with many elected officials have demanded Spotify cancel Rogan.
Do they really think people that have chosen not to get the shot after all this time were about to change their minds until....Joe Rogan happened? Because he said I'm not a doctor, don't take advise from me. Do your own research. This is my personal lived experience with covid?
"Look for the biggest virtue signaler of all to appear on this stage shortly: Bruce Springsteen"
I assume Springsteen has advisors who realize Rogan is probably waiting for an actual big name to join the boycott, so that he can issue the invitation to a debate.
Music becomes The Man.
How do you get "12 times more likely to be hospitalized"? It says 5 times!
Using multiples to compare percentages is also stupid and misleading, especially when the percentages are really tiny. "5 times more likely to be hospitalized"? Is that 50% versus 10%, or 0.5% versus 0.1%? The latter is pretty minuscule, especially when compared to the risks from the vaccine itself, though it's very hard to get solid info on the vaccine risks (I wonder why?).
Again, what is their specific complaint about Rogan’s interviews? Are Young and Mitchell and whatzitsface saying that Rohan did not have COVID or that he was not treated ivermectin? Because they’d have a lot to prove if that’s their assertion. Are Young and Mitchell and whatzitsface asserting that they know more about the risks of mRNA vaccines than Dr. Robert Malone, who pioneered them?
I’m guessing that after years of attacking their brains with cocaine and marijuana and booze they naively trust government bureaucrats and groupthink, though why they imagine that NIH and CDC bureaucrats in the 2020s are any more trustworthy than DoD bureaucrats in the 1970s escapes me.
The msm has banned coverage of the truck protest in Canada.
That should concern those baby boomer virtue signaling rebels more.
Neil Oliver’s report on it is going viral:
https://www.gbnews.uk/gb-views/neil-oliver-i-stand-firmly-with-the-canadian-pilgrims-in-their-trucks/215927
Mark
FYI, Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet (Google), Amazon and Meta’s (FB) stocks have crashed dramatically…Fortune Magazine. It’s not just Spotify, the whole stock market is in correction after years of a bull market.
Maybe, you don’t follow the stock market but there has been a record sell off.
Young does not own his music
Frampton does not own his music
Joni Mitchell does not own her music
Does Lofgren own his music?
Bruce Springsteen does not own his music.
These people have no more right to pull their music from Spotify than I do to dictate who the owners of my old house rent to.
In some cases, like Youngs, they still own 50% of some other piece. Seems like their co-owner would have a say in what happens.
John LGBTQBNY Henry
Boy these are some dumb people. Not doing a lick of research into vaccines. Here is an actual scientist discussing the actually scientists on Rogan..
https://unherd.com/2022/01/we-need-to-talk-about-the-vaccines/
Temujin said...
Look for the biggest virtue signaler of all to appear on this stage shortly: Bruce Springsteen. This has him written all over it. Book it.
I don't think he owns his music anymore.
If he does that the owners would have a pretty airtight tort against him unless they signed a contract that allowed him to devalue the asset they bought.
Which would be silly.
Headline I'd love to see:
"Joe Rogan threatens to quit Spotify if they let Neil, Joni and Nils back on"
Cecelia, I am quite well aware.
Thus I am aware that 27% in the last month is double or triple what most are down.
Wouldn't that just be the gas, if Spotify refused to pull down music that the performers no longer own?
Personally, I'm secretly getting almost as much enjoyment from the antics of these airheads as I ever did from their music - just sayin'. To be fair, neither Young nor Mitchell were ever in my Top 10. But.....It's a pretty sad cap to a career when Social Media foolishness starts to overtake your brand and name recognition from the music you wrote 40 years ago.
"I also wonder if Nils or Neil or Joni has ever listened to a single Joe Rogan podcast. I'm gonna guess the answer is no."
You mean like the vast majority of people who are commenting about Maus here?
I don't see you on those threads asking the same question. Must be your ox getting gored to have you raising this issue now.
Headline that I would have been shocked to see in the past, but now, not so much:
"CDC changes unvaccinated 12-34 year old hospitalization rate estimate from 5x to 12x: We must have got it wrong, because well-known health research scientist Joni Mitchell said it was 12x somewhere on the Internets!
Why doesn't Fauci go on Rogan's show to rebut the claims? Why not the outspoken CEO of Pfizer? I'm sure Rogan would welcome them as guests.
Maybe Fauci would join Rogan in a nice fatty and some Buffalo Trace.
Michael said...
This is not good for the nation. Too many people running around trying to ban books, ban music, ban ideas, ban CRT, ban Rogan. I think it's a symptom of how emotionally unhealthy our country has become
They aristocracy blatantly stole the election in 2020 and have been caught blatantly lying multiple times over the last 10 years.
The Regime is running out of actual supporters and will be out of power soon one way or another.
This emotional sickness you are seeing is their desperation to cling to power.
>>Honestly, I don't remember who Nils Lofgren is, and I'm a Boomer. Oh, the E Street Band.<<
Nils and Neil are tight. Nils was a member of Crazy Horse. And he has solo played backup for Neil many times over the years. (eg., See videos of the great Trans World Tour concert in Berlin.)
Achilles said...
“And I love that these fascist fuckwits are publicly self identifying right before the whole edifice gets torn down around them.“
I had a similar thought. Glad to have a list of “270 members of the scientific community” that I can use to check to be sure I’m not engaging for any of my future medical care. 270 people who group-think who fail to read the diatribes they carelessly sign. Got it.
The answer to Young, et al. is to reduce the copyright period so that it matches the patent period of 20 years. It's government power that they're leveraging against Rogan.
No, back to 7 years + option for another 7 years. Effective immediately upon the law passing.
"5 times more likely to be hospitalized with Covid-19 compared with fully-vaccinated 12-34 year-olds"
Are we to infer "with COVID-19" means 'because of Covid-19', or are we playing deceptive word games?
If you have Sirius-XM in your car, you can listen to it on your phone or computer for no cost. Who needs Spotify?
Last their prime “radicals” in a time long long ago, trying to censor a current day “radical. Since putting people on the air to explain their opinions is now fascist to these old radicals. Sad, very sad
As Glen Greenwald just opined, censorship is the new liberal religion.
‘How do you get "12 times more likely to be hospitalized"? It says 5 times!’
It comes down to how the hospitalization rate is determined, If you are 2 times as likely to get covid, and 5 times as likely to be hospitalized if you get covid, then overall you would be 10 times as likely to be hospitalized. But I can’t tell from the study whether they computed the hospitalization rate relative to the general population, to those who get covid, or on some other basis.
What I can see, from the table on page 13 of the study, is that in the 12-34 age group in Washington State in the February to December 2021 timeframe, 3,108 hospitalizations were of unvaccinated people and 205 hospitalizations were of fully vaccinated people. That means that 15 times as many people hospitalized were unvaccinated as were fully vaccinated 3,108 / 205). The difference is even more dramatic when one considers that the relatively high rate of vaccination for Washington State means that the unvaccinated are a much smaller population than the vaccinated, at least at the end of the study period.
Mark
Spotify started to crash BEFORE Neil pulled out of Spotify. He just isn’t important enough to hurt the stock.
No, back to 7 years + option for another 7 years. Effective immediately upon the law passing.
Disney will never allow that to happen.
The stats are manipulated to be misleading. You have to ask yourself how they are defining "unvaccinated".
Notice they say "fully" vaccinated. If "fully vaccinated" now means 2 shots plus a booster then many vaccinated people getting sick are counted as "unvaccinated", which is bullshit.
I recall reading somewhere that you are not counted as vaccinated if you get sick within 3 weeks of getting the shot. Will we ever know how many people get hospitalized within the first three weeks of getting their 1st shot?
My mother and stepfather didn't get sick from covid until about three weeks after their first shot. My mother was hospitalized for 6 weeks. My stepfather recovered at home. They would both have been counted among the "unvaccinated". As I said, the stats are deliberately misleading.
"5 versus 12?"
Heck, they just followed the old progressive rule: "We got the narrative right. It's just the facts we got wrong-"
Or, in the spirit of the inspirational words of John Blutarsky, "Was it over when the Germans attacked Pearl Harbor?"
The reason fauci, Pfizer CEO will not go on Rogan because, like rush before him, they want to destroy him for political purposes.
I’m not sure if Neil, Joni, and this other guy are doing it for political reasons, but I would bet money that is a large part of it.
Covid has taken so many twists and turns that an honest expert should admit with a degree of humility that they've been wrong repeatedly. And only then go on to discuss what the most recent data suggests. Barring more serious mutations it suggests that the pandemic is nearly over.
If true, and I admit being wrong often, that would be an unqualified good.
But I wonder if this is not the thing that brings down an entire world view? The impact of covid has been universal but it has not hit every aspect of society equally. Public education, the entertainment industry, the Credentialed Experts of academia, the credibility of mainstream media....these are the pillars of Progressive Power and they now have cracks forming, sand filtering out of them and if you look closely just a little bit of shifting here and there.
Which is exactly what happens before a collapse.
I wonder if we are soon to see a societal change on the order of the collapse of the USSR. A few Hungarian border guards say "Ó, csak menj", the Iron Curtain is no more and the world changes.
It would be a chaotic time, and mostly but not entirely good.
T
Maybe it has been solved, but I haven't looked at comments yet, so I want full credit for this one.
2 X 5 = 12!
And to think, I was never that good at math.
https://brownstone.org/articles/it-was-all-there-in-the-eua-why-couldnt-they-see-it/
Aging hippies are now the authority on the left. The Robert F Kennedy Jr book is still worth reading. Even if he is a nut about some things.
The Washington State demographics tab has stopped reporting deaths by age, but the King County website (pop. 2.2M) is still reporting that. As of Friday, Jan 1, 2022 the deaths and death per 100,000 are:
0-9: 1, 0
10-19: 6, 2
20-29: 15, 4
30-39: 39, 9
40-49: 76, 25
50-59: 218, 81
60-69: 372, 170
70-79: 536, 431
80+ : 1048, 1748
There's no breakdown about vaxxed, nonvaxeed. If we believe the 5x death rate for vax/nonvax, then that would mean 1 death for vaxxed and 5 for nonvaxed for ages 0-19. That's a rounding error.
The 5x statistic just proves the old saw about the three types of lies: "There's lies, damned lies and statistics." That's what Joni Mitchell is quoting, a misleading statistic that has no relevance. But, that fits Joni perfectly, a washed up musician without any relevance.
I've enjoyed her music, but listening to her for health advice is just pure insanity.
… unvaccinated 12-34 year olds …
I see that Mike Sylwester also raised an eyebrow at that age range. Let’s ask an expert. @Althouse, it has been rumored that you are a female from species h. sapiens (Meade can perhaps confirm). And furthermore it seems reasonable to suppose that you were once 12 years old, and you were 34 for 365 days or thereabouts, and probably each age in between 12 and 34 for a year or so. Was your physiology the same at 12 as at 17? Was it the same at 20 as at 30?
Let me take my tongue out of my cheek and point out that if all of the hospitalizations for both vaxxed and unvaccinated were in the 30 to 34 age cohort, the statement would be technically true, but you wouldn’t know anything about the effect of the vaccines on school-age children.
5x more, 12x more, the rate is still infinitesimal.
Exactly as Ann stated.
How about standing with the heroes who have been risking their lives every day to save lives, for the past year and 9 months, and who are being fired because they question vaccination?
For starters.
Caroline said...
Maybe Neil should avail himself as a joe rogan guest, with Brett Weinstein or Jordan P or Dr McCullough.
Most likely. I have seen a lot of people riff on the following:
Well, I heard Mister Young sing about her
Well, I heard ol' Neil put her down
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don't need him around anyhow
Ronnie Van Zant wrote those lyrics because he thought Neil had gone a bit too far with his songs "Southern Man" and "Alabama". After "Sweet Home Alabama" got famous, Ronnie got a chance to meet Neil and they hashed out their differences amicably. Neil later wrote the song "Powderfinger" which he planned to give to Lynyrd Skynyrd, but due to the plane crash that never happened.
So, yes, there is a chance that if Rogan invited Neil on the show with Robert Malone you'd see somewhat of a change of attitude.
Left Bank of the Charles said...
The difference is even more dramatic when one considers that the relatively high rate of vaccination for Washington State means that the unvaccinated are a much smaller population than the vaccinated, at least at the end of the study period
That last phrase is doing some pretty heavy lifting. Even with comorbidities the vaccine was not available to 34-and-under until sometime in May. Without comorbidities it was more like June. If you could find it.
First, why should we trust these people, they are way over 30.
But also, they must differentiate between those who have not had a prior infection and those who have recovered. The vaccine taken before or after natural infection has no impact on risk of reinfection or serious COVID. The vaccines do offer protection from severe COVID/death if you have not had and recovered from a COVID infection. But anyone under 70 is only at 0.005% of dying from COVID (without a lot of co-morbidities). Most of those who have died had 6 or more co-morbidities. And while many have died, the mean age is at or over the life expectancy in that country.
Here is Dr. Scott Atlas discussing a study from Israel showing those with natural immunity and those who have not had the infection, with the subcategories of vaccination status
https://youtu.be/t6kmm70ji5c?t=2966
SO, I see the word "contract" mentioned only once above as I post.
What does the contract between Spotify and any of these musicians state? Or as many have mentioned- most of these artists don't even own the rights to their music, having sold them off. What does the contract between the music owners and Spotify state? Is the contract: "Can be terminated by either side at any time?" There are contracts like that. Is the contract "For X number of years, Spotify may use this music catalog."? Is there a morals clause in the contract?
The only thing certain is- lots of publicity for Spotify, and lawyers are going to make money.
Note the only name they mention is Rogan, as if he has no qualified guests on.
Also, with ever expanding rounds of jabs, the period of having mrna/lipid nanoparticle Spike in system but still not considered vaxxed grows longer.
Again, sandal up hippies and tell those vaccine hesitant black folk to get on the jab train. Black Lives Matter!
I am still trying to find a study or any sort of information that uses the 12-34 year old age bracket.
That age grouping doesn't accurately describe anything.
"if Rogan invited Neil on the show with Robert Malone you'd see somewhat of a change of attitude."
Neil isn't dumb enough to walk into that buzzsaw. And Rogan is too sensible to waste the show time. It might be comedy gold, however.
“ If you have Sirius-XM in your car, you can listen to it on your phone or computer for no cost. Who needs Spotify?”
I think that just gives you what’s playing on their channels. Much much more depth and individuality on Spotify. I find so much and collect and share do many playlists. I discovered things all the time that appeal to me, such as older jazz and strange things that never come up in the radio format on Sirius, which is full of newer music and which repeats the same things on, say, the 60s Channel.
What if you want classical music or earlier things. Almost nothing.
Prince Harry and Meghan Markle have threatened to do something unless Spotify removes Joe Rogan's podcast.
Apropos Althouse's post on the NYT's sudden attitude shift regarding Biden's SCOTUS picks; methinks the NYT is worried that the left has suddenly taken an even more bizarre turn and that it's time to rein things in a bit.
Good calculating Narr! Congratulations you are NOT racist! That double-naught ciphering taxes the left no end!
Meghan and Harry have threatened to “do something”? That’s what Spotify has been waiting for. So, far, they have done nothing, with the exception of a short holiday message last year. So, nothing at all in 2020 of any consequence because they have nothing but notoriety. They have nothing worthwhile to say…we’ve heard it all already. A production company has been hired to help them develop content. So, $25 million later and nothing from the Duke and Duchess of Montecito. What a loss for humanity!
Florida has the following Demographic data on CV-19:
Cummualitve CV-19 deaths since march 2020
Under Age 16 - 36 Deaths (absolute Number)
Ages 16-29 - 454 Deaths (absolute Number)
Over Age 65 - 48,000 Deaths.
Statistically speaking the CV-19 death rate for those under 16 is ZERO. NADA. ZIP. For those under 30, its about 1 per 1,000. By Comparison in 2019, 6000 persons ages 1-29 died from all causes. If we include 2018+2019, its approximately 12,000.
So to summarize:
2020-2021 deaths from CV-19 (under 30) - 490
2018-2019 deaths ALL CAUSES (under 30) - 12,000
Disraili said there were Lies, Damned lies, and statistics. The easiest way to to lie with statistics is to use Percentages and ratios, without giving the absolute numbers. Did you realize you're 1,000,000 times more likely to die from Shark attack then from a crocodile attack in California? Better watch out for those Great whites, next time you go to a SoCal beach!
"NYT is worried that the left has suddenly taken an even more bizarre turn and that it's time to rein things in a bit."
Spotify opted to oust Harry and Megan's preferred producer.
"Yeah. No. We'll handle this."
Can Spotify afford to lose Prince Harry?
I say Yes.
I could say "Shut up and sing" but for Niles Lofren I'll just say "Shut up" .
Someone up thread had a good idea. WHy not have a big rock/folk concert in favor of censorship? "Musicans for Corporate Conformity and Censorship" - Get Googe/Facebook to sponser it.
"have a big rock/folk concert in favor of censorship"
Brought to you by..Pfizer
Am I the last person in the world listening to broadcast radio?
Hell, I've even been known to tune in an AM channel.....
rcocean said...
Can Spotify afford to lose Prince Harry?
I say Yes.
Losing him didn't seem to hurt the House of Windsor in any way.
"Good calculating, Narr!"
I blush.
Since when do counter-culture types know anything about science? In my experience they know as much about science as Joe Biden knows about economics.
Perhaps unvaxxed people have fewer deaths, and that's "unstable" because it's not supposed to happen...?
Covid-18, 19, 20, 21, and 22 are highly survivable diseases in the general population, and even in the high risk cohorts, disease progression can be mitigated with early, inexpensive, effective, safe treatments to sustain viability above 99% (i.e. seasonal flu). Planned parent/hood was neither a good nor exclusive choice.
Disraili said there were Lies, Damned lies, and statistics. The easiest way to to lie with statistics is to use Percentages and ratios, without giving the absolute numbers. Did you realize you're 1,000,000 times more likely to die from Shark attack then from a crocodile attack in California? Better watch out for those Great whites, next time you go to a SoCal beach!
That's why we have an 11-lb Chiweenie (Sadie) - to protect us from the scourge of Great White shark attacks in King County. Sadie's doing a great job, there's nary a Great White within 500-miles and we've never had even a whiff of one. Good job, Sadie!
Disraili said there were Lies, Damned lies, and statistics.
Twain said it.
I thought the dancing mushrooms in Fantasia looked like penis toadstools.
Once the striking artists have put Spotify out of business, Rogan can go back to his former method of podcasting, $100 million richer.
And the thousands of minor artists who were getting a little extra income will have to do without.
Stick it to the man, Neil.
according to data from Washington State, unvaccinated 12-34 year olds
WTF? That makes about ass much sense as talking about the "average time to run 5 miles among 12 - 34 year olds".
https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/situation.html#ageg1
Age range Cases Deaths
10-14 years 77,315 1
15-19 years 98,173 4
20-24 years 115,548 9
25-29 years 115,603 31
30-34 years 114,680 57
There is no commonality WRT Covid, at all, between 12 and 34 year olds. Someone posting that indicates up front that he / she has absolutely no clue what she / he is talking about
Note, that's out of 1.3 million cases in MN, and 11,382 deaths. So 521k out of 1.3 million on the cases front (more than a third) for 102 deaths out of over 11 thousand.
To put it bluntly: the Covid death for teh under 35 crowd are a rounding error to the total number of deaths, and the hospitializations truck the deaths, not the cases.
80% of a rounding error is still a rounding error
Left Bank of the Charles said...
What I can see, from the table on page 13 of the study, is that in the 12-34 age group in Washington State in the February to December 2021 timeframe, 3,108 hospitalizations were of unvaccinated people and 205 hospitalizations were of fully vaccinated people. That means that 15 times as many people hospitalized were unvaccinated as were fully vaccinated 3,108 / 205). The difference is even more dramatic when one considers that the relatively high rate of vaccination for Washington State means that the unvaccinated are a much smaller population than the vaccinated, at least at the end of the study period.
That's so totally messed up I'm not even sure it's deliberate.
First thing you have to do is get rid of all data before June or July, because the "Covid vaccination" rate for the 34 and under crowd then was pretty freaking low.
If you want to include the under 18 crowd (which you appear to, since you're looking at 12+), then you're going to have to toss out a lot more data, since the 12 - 17 crowd wasn't even eligible for the shots until, what, September?
So I suppose you could come up with a more worthless and dishonest comparison than the one you did, but it would take a great deal of effort to do so
Twain Said it.
No, Twain said you were a boring dullard.
The Disraeli quote was in my 1st year statistics book. It is also attributed to Twain. Maybe one was quoting the other.
The artist-the cultural elite.. spend large chunks of their waking hours perfecting their craft-their stage persona... their entertainment package.... how can they be more than a low density information consumer? or have a fully functional and engauaged critical thinker plugged in ??
A fine point, perhaps, but 5 base 10 = 12 base 3.
What's most apt is that, 50+ years ago, Nils Lofgren played with Neil Young in their group called Crazy Horse on an album called Everybody Knows This is Nowhere. How prescient.
Big Mike says, "A fine point, perhaps, but 5 base 10 = 12 base 3."
Showoff!
I would like to say here that on the statistics issue GregTCT is exactly right; and the phrase "lies, damned lies, and statistics," was used first by my g-g-g-uncle Bernie.
You can believe me, because I'm always right, and I never lie.
"What's most apt is that, 50+ years ago, Nils Lofgren played with Neil Young in their group called Crazy Horse on an album called Everybody Knows This is Nowhere. How prescient." Lofgren didn't play on that album. He's on After the Gold Rush.
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