I'm reading that this morning because it popped up in the end of a New Yorker article about — of all things — Led Zeppelin:
If the predetermined task of rock gods and goddesses is to sacrifice themselves on the Dionysian altar of excess so that gentle teen-agers the world over don’t have to do it themselves—which seems to be the basic rock-and-roll contract—then the lives of these deities are never exactly wasted, especially when they are foreshortened. Their atrocious human deeds are, to paraphrase a famous fictional atheist, the manure for our future harmony.... [S]urely all kinds of demonic and powerful art, including many varieties of music, both classical and popular, have been created by people who didn’t live demonically. What about Flaubert’s mantra about living like a bourgeois in order to create wild art? In Led Zeppelin’s case, the great music, the stuff that is still violently radical, was made early in the band’s career, when its members were most sober. The closer the band got to actual violence, the tamer the music became.
Yes but who is the "famous fictional atheist" and how can I reverse the paraphrase "atrocious human deeds are... the manure for our future harmony"? Oh, I managed to do that.
It's from "The Brothers Karamazov," spoken by Ivan, who's famously atheist:“Oh, with my pathetic, earthly, Euclidean mind, I know only that there is suffering, that none are to blame, that all things follow simply and directly from one another, that everything flows and finds its level — but that is all just Euclidean gibberish, of course I know that, and of course I cannot consent to live by it! What do I care that none are to blame and that I know it — I need retribution, otherwise I will destroy myself. And retribution not somewhere and sometime in infinity, but here and now, on earth, so that I see it myself. I have believed, and I want to see for myself, and if I am dead by that time, let them resurrect me, because it will be too unfair if it all takes place without me. Is it possible that I've suffered so that I, together with my evil deeds and sufferings, should be manure for someone's future harmony? I want to see with my own eyes the hind lie down with the lion, and the murdered man rise up and embrace his murderer. I want to be there when everyone suddenly finds out what it was all for.”
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The manure quote reminds me of the inspirational poster with a sinking ship:
"MISTAKES: It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."
Democrat "manure" is no one's idea of a seed bed for future harmony.
Hard to read that 19th Century idealism without thinking of the Holomodor and the Holocaust. As our American atheist writer put it "It would be pretty to think so."
Yes but who is the "famous fictional atheist"
The New Yorker sure is assuming a lot about their readers here. How many people got this reference? I didn't, and I've read Dostoevsky ... enthusiastically ... although many decades ago.
Which brings up a second thought. I recently re-read The Possessed (aka Devils), and found it a huge bore. Why? Age? Or, is Dostoevsky's super-wordy style just too out of date? But I like Trollope who is super-duper wordy. Hmmm. Its a mystery ... wrapped inside an enigma, wrapped in bacon. ... Now I'm hungry.
I don't know about the 'bourgeois' part, but I highly recommend being regular and orderly. It's true it makes one more effectively violent, and cunningly original. Two things whose value is heading North.
The closer the band got to actual violence
What actual violence did they get close to, and when?
On artists: did anyone ever change from producing lesser art or none to producing better art or greater, simply or primarily by adopting a more Dionysian life? Simply by dropping acid? I think there is a debate about the Beatles that doesn't interest me very much. Cary Grant recommended LSD for depression for years, said it improved both his professional and personal life, but eventually he apparently took most or all of this back. Where was the creative outflow that was constantly promised by Tim Leary and his friends? Where are the novels, the poetry, the philosophy, the comprehensive overviews of the world's religions? As Susan Sarandon said when she dispersed some of Leary's ashes at Burning Man, people who take and enjoy drugs today may never have heard of Leary. I would just add: judging from woke politics, and despite the resources of the internet blah blah, they may not be all that curious about much of anything.
Wrong deeds as manure for the future? Nietzsche says everything noble is soaked in blood. There is no way to achieve big or lasting things among human beings except by violence. Christianity required Constantine, among other killers, and of course the Bible has killed a lot of people. I'm working on Swift: the Anglican Church was obviously an attempt at a political solution to the divisiveness of sects, much more than an attempt to get references to Scripture exactly right. The Royal Society I believe was part of the same effort: distract people with a different kind of progress, a new kind of priest (including, alas, Fauci), and emphasize material improvements in this life rather than an afterlife. These "solutions" would hardly have been necessary without the previous centuries of religious wars.
Roger Daltry's life vs. stage persona fit this observation.
Unlike Aphrodite rising from the waves, as exemplified in the Baron Munchausen movie by a young Uma Thurman cherubically gowned upon rising on a large clamshell, Harmony does not arise from a load of shit, sourced from bovine excresences or any other kind. Manure must compost and break down into organic-rich soil before it will support more than a burnout of anything grown therein.
Rock stars as shit I can see, as an accurate analogy. Shitty Rock stars producing "harmony" is a rotten pun from a lazy writer.
The Temptation of St Anthony was cleaned up to omit Crepitus about whom, by the resonance of his release, the whole world knew that Caesar had dined well.
It's hard to buy great literature that hasn't been tampered with.
Starting to see a trend forming here. Mud, Temple Grandin and cows, manure... It's 'Clean Your Shoes Day' here at the Althouse blog! Grab a rag and get to work!
Wow. That is totally a Religious approach to human life that must have blood sacrifices performed by HighPriests to satisfy the Demons. You would need a private island to actually live that out.
@Gerda: “ I recently re-read The Possessed (aka Devils), and found it a huge bore. Why? Age? Or, is Dostoevsky's super-wordy style just too out of date?”
Same. I think our brains have changed (not evolved for that would imply improvement). I can hardly read any novel these days. Dostoyevsky was great, I get that, but so many words, so many chapters where nothing happens.
O Muse, tweet me a deep thought.
Roger Daltry's life vs. stage persona fit this observation.
If a rock star wants to have anything close to a normal lifespan they can't live the life they portray on stage for very long. Mick Jagger is a health nut. Even bad boy Keith Richards gave up drugs long ago and was never nearly as bad as his image.
Just watched a documentary last night on The Doors. The big takeaway was what Jim Morrison was doing on stage wasn't an act. He was truly pushing the Dionysian lifestyle to the limit. And the consequences were predictable.
Always found Dostoevski full of wooly talk.
I agree with LWR943am, except for "of course the Bible has killed a lot of people." Bibles don't kill people, people kill people. At least, the currently accepted Christian Bible turned out to have a disarm mechanism that it took about a millenium and a half to figure out.
Led Zeppelin isn't a great band for this analogy. Yes, they did all their creative work on the first 3 albums and everything afterward was a rehash. Their vision wasn't actually that creative either. It included (1) updating classic blues melodies with rock production and (first album) psychedelics, (2) bringing sexually explicit blues lyrics to the white middle-class masses, and (3) bringing traditional folk music to rock production.
Two of their members were overtaken by drugs and alcohol, while two others stayed largely in control. This is not news among commercial performers, who much find a way to feel good enough for a new performance every night on tour. Drugs even killed the generally clean Prince, as addictive pills were prescribed for pain resulting from live shows.
They were bourgeois, but that was true of EVERYONE allowed in the handful of BBC or Hollywood major label slots in the 1960s. All 1960s performers were de facto mainstream and corporate bands. It wasn't until Black Sabbath, The Shaggs, and punk rock came around that outsiders and the working class had a chance to compete with commercial music.
The original analysis is broken.
re: Lloyd W. Robertson at 9:43
What is capital if not the accumulated crime and sacrifice of centuries, plus interest? A terrible human price was paid to build the modern world. For those who are interested in the details see my book, Three Uneasy Pieces (about the Bible and History):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08PLX2W61
"In Led Zeppelin’s case, the great music, the stuff that is still violently radical, was made early in the band’s career, when its members were most sober."
Kind of a silly thing to say. The Beatles, Dylan, Bowie... the acts that don't get stale as they go on are the exception, not the rule. And it's not always the drugs. You get older. You run out of ideas and begin repeating yourself. You try to reinvent yourself, but there was only one you that was any good.
Dostoyevsky's clarity about human behavior must be studied and understood.
Exh. A: "I want to be there when everyone suddenly finds out what it was all for.”
If there were a formula or guideposts on how to create great art we'd have a lot more of it. Instead its seems almost as rare as 100 degree heat in Seatlle.
We're been reduced to labeling Lead Zepplin as "Great Music". And it'd be nice if someone was creating "wild and crazy" art that "subverts the Establishment" - but in reality it mostly just attacks those without real power. Someone with a "Genius" Award or Nobel Lit Prize attacking the middle class.
When I think of Rod Stewart (rarely), I think of his huge model train layout.
I personally felt,
that the entire purpose of my 20 year journey attaining a BS degree* (as Well as my AA degree)
Was for me, to be a Shining Bad Example of WHAT NOT TO DO
(well, that purpose... as well as me scoring with quite a few neo hippy chix)
It was a Tough Job.... But Somebody had to do it
BS degree*
YEAH, Iowa State University awarded gilbar, a BS degree; Kirkwood Junior college gave me an AA degree
Two words: mud shark
The culture's not as hospitable to long speeches as it once was. Also, Dostoevsky's work was a diagnosis of 19th Russia's ills and a prediction of its 20th century catastrophes. I suppose we could see it as relevant to the woke cultural revolution of our time, but the Russian names and details make it harder to apply to the particularities of our own time. We'd like something a little more American. Think of Zadie Smith adapting Forster's plot to 21st century American academia as a possible model.
I also wonder if maybe The Possessed would work better as a collection of intertwined stories or in some other form. It has fascinating characters -- Dostoevsky's works do -- but it's hard to tie all of the plots and characters together in a satisfying whole. The fate of a lesser character and his ideas may deserve to have its own arc, rather than be stuffed into the rest of the novel. Maybe this had something to do with serial publication and authors not really being sure how the novels they were writing would end.
Trollope is more plot-oriented and that means he can tightly wrap his novel around events, rather than getting carried away by ideas. There may be many complications and intrigues in the making of bishops and ministers, but an author can be more focused writing about those matters than about the fate of a civilization.
Good one CWJ. Reminds me of my favorite Who song:
No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes
And no one knows what it's like
To be hated
To be fated to telling only lies
But my dreams they aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what its like
To feel these feelings
Like I do
And I blame you
No one bites back as hard
On their anger
None of my pain and woe
Can show through
But my dreams they aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what its like
To be mistreated, to be defeated
Behind blue eyes
An no one know how to say
That they're sorry and don't worry
I'm not telling lies
But my dreams they aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be
I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free
No one knows what its like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes
Zeps early work was a lot of fantastic covers and sublime ripoffs. Their later works found on Physical Graffiti and Presence was generally original and in the case of Achilles Last Stand more violent.
On artists: did anyone ever change from producing lesser art or none to producing better art or greater, simply or primarily by adopting a more Dionysian life?
I take it you’re unfamiliar with the artist previously known as Robert Zimmerman.
I'm gonna make justice happen in my lifetime or else when I'm dead I'll be soooo mad.
Where I come from bourgeois is a last name.
To be fair- he’s a dr and he thinks his $?!& don’t stink.
Only the bourgeois, eh?
Considering fertilizer is a scarce commodity & so expensive now- it may be in great demand in organic form…
Plenty of kids sacrificing on the altar of drugs- if not rock and roll.
Leaving children fatherless.
Satan laughs and rubs his hands together in greed…
Enigma said:
"Drugs even killed the generally clean Prince, as addictive pills were prescribed for pain resulting from live shows." And, as I recall, Prince's love of basketball and his habit of playing in platform shoes.
My favorite Who song was the one they played on stage immediately after Townshend clocked Abbie Hoffman in the head with his guitar.
Since we have strayed onto the topic of Anthony Trollope, I highly recommend his novel The Way We Live Now.
It is about lying and does an astonishing job of capturing the multitude of ways that people lie, primarily via the main character who lies all the time about everything. The other main character, who tells the truth all the time, is pretty flat by comparison. There is financial skulduggery too.
The novel is, therefore, very relevant to today.
a hundred years from now, i wonder which will be better known, with more renown ?
A Stairway to Heaven?
or
the 1969 US number-one single of the year: Sugar, Sugar?
ps. Contrary to what modern revisionist cr*p might say; Neither Betty Nor Veronica EVER did drugs
Reggie DID have a coke problem it's true; but it Never interfered with his bass work
Okay, Hot Dog had some issues.... But What dog didn't???
"I take it you’re unfamiliar with the artist previously known as Robert Zimmerman."
The guy who shot Trayvon? Was he an artist?
While the first 3 of the albums sound dated, Led Zeppelin’s Presence sounds incredibly fresh to me, especially Achilles’ Last Stand. It reminds me ironically of a Rush album, production is tight, every note seemingly falls into the right place. So I don’t agree with the reviewer about albums after IV. But yeah, In Through the Out Door is terrible.
" bringing traditional folk music to rock production. "
Didn't they steal that from Thin Lizzy?
I always thought that the "bad man behind blue eyes" was Trump, BTW, or at least the Trump that frequents the fever dreams of so many.
The late, great Frank Zappa was very fond of that quote also
Similar to what Amy Wax was saying in an infamous op-ed that got her into such trouble with the Good-Think crowd at UPenn: Be regular and orderly in your life like a bourgeois, so that you may improve your chances of being successful in life.
Bonzo was REAL sober throughout his tenure.
I love watching old YouTube videos of bands when they were discovered vs after they’ve been famous for a while. It makes me feel sad for their parents- to visually notice the decline of hygiene and alertness:0( it is what it is, I guess.
Some great suggestions. Many thanks, all.
Rock gods are so 1970s. Are there any left? Aren't they all knighted or real estate moguls now? The path of excess eventually left to old age and contented retirement. Rap may have its gods of violence and excess, but most of them aren't making it to old age -- as some of rock's gods didn't.
R C Belaire said...
"When I think of Rod Stewart (rarely), I think of his huge model train layout."
Sinatra had a great model train layout too.
The very first generation of rock stars were sincere in their excesses. Jim Morrison, Keith Moon, Brian Jones were committed to the romance of drugs and early death. They will forever remain better looking and more doom laden and interesting than their band mates who have aged poorly. They missed out on fifty years of supermodels, private jets, and golf lessons in the afternoon, but they got the legendary romantic death.....They created the archetype. Their subsequent models were blurry stereotypes off the duplicating machine.....Stairway to Heaven was the greatest song of its moment. I don't know if Led Zeppelin were great, but that was a great song. Hoagy Carmichael wasn't the greatest songwriter of his era, but in "Stardust" he created something special and fine.
Model trains and trains of models . . .
True story. My wife and I were in Paris in 2017, staying at a hotel in Bagnolet. As we checked in the desk clerk noticed we were Americans of a certain age and told us, without prompting, the best way to get to the cemetery where Jim Morrison is buried, which was not far away.
As if.
Is that how they see us?
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