January 7, 2021

"Even if you believe — as David Bernstein states above — that the election didn’t turn on fraud, you should be concerned that so many people do."

"It’s important... that elections not only be free of fraud, but trusted by the vast majority, even among those who lose. We don’t have that, and the huge number of stories about potential election fraud that were running in mainstream media right up until election day indicates that if Trump had been declared the winner, Democrats would be running around screaming fraud. We need a system that is obviously trustworthy enough that the vast majority of people will trust it, and we certainly don’t have that. Other countries do."

Writes Glenn Reynolds, pointing to this post — also at Instapundit — by David Bernstein. 

From Bernstein's post: "There is no evidence of widespread fraud that could plausibly be said to have cost Trump the election, nor even a single state.... And all that is why Trump’s lawyers lost every single case they brought before judges of all parties and ideologies.... Even if you accept any of the not-completely-crazy theories I’ve seen of how the election was 'stolen,' at best that gets Trump to a narrow victory in the Electoral College. Yet the president continues to insist not just that he won, not just that the election was stolen, but that he won in a 'landslide.'... If the election process is a total fraud, then violence is to be expected. Even in the face of the violence yesterday, Trump, while telling the rioters to go home, also continued to insist that he really won in a landslide, thus continuing to foment violence."

213 comments:

1 – 200 of 213   Newer›   Newest»
DavidUW said...

Every step of the way to verifying votes was obstructed by democrats.

Which is exactly how someone stealing an election would behave.

But, given the opportunity to engage in mass mail in fraud etc, we're to believe they didn't.

Ok then.

I've already outlined the easiest way to effect a fraud that would be nearly undetectable and it doesn't rely on any software magic.

1) mail in balloting by definition gives you advance knowledge of who *hasn't* voted.
2) use that information between the hours of, say, 11:30 pm and 4 am to fill out ballots.
3) voila' they appear
4) continue counting.

I can think of that off the top of my head. The dems had months to plan for it.
They were obviously doing that rather than, say, planning to roll out a 'Rona vaccine.

mccullough said...

People are going to believe what they want to believe.

Rabel said...

To be clear, Bernstein is a rabid never-Trumper who somehow weaseled his way into a spot at Instapundit.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

The vast majority of our elected representatives trust the results of the election. But I would certainly support comprehensive reform of federal elections that included eliminating the electoral college.

rhhardin said...

Every message has been that no court or congress has any standing to look into it. That's a broken system.

Gentlemen's agreements used to cover it, but we don't have those on the left anymore, starting probably with Al Gore 2000.

rehajm said...

There is no evidence of widespread fraud that could plausibly be said to have cost Trump the election, nor even a single state..

People who say things this are admitting they've never taken an accounting class or had a job title where they had to audit or organize or analyze data or safeguard data or assets.

To those of us who have, statements like these are the equivalent of someone bragging about their illiteracy.

Chuck said...

Blogger Rabel said...
To be clear, Bernstein is a rabid never-Trumper who somehow weaseled his way into a spot at Instapundit.


To be even CLEARER, an ad hominem attack on Bernstein doesn’t address the merits of what he writes.

Dave Begley said...

1. The fraud was not widespread. It was in 6 big Dem cities.

2. I don't think a single court even reached the merits in any of the Trump election cases. That was a huge problem and why people are so upset.

3. I say the burden of proof is now on the Dems and the Biden campaign to PROVE that the election was free and fair.

Fernandinande said...

ACLU sez: "Voter identification laws are a part of an ongoing strategy to roll back decades of progress on voting rights."

Chuck said...

This is a very nicely assembled blog post, Althouse. Kudos.

BillieBob Thorton said...

Voter ID
In person voting
Get rid of the dominion software

Ken B said...

Look back at the threads of the past few days where I have been pushing easy reforms. And look at the petulant fuck you reactions from the Trumpkins. They hate me because Of their covid folly so they react to that. They don’t really care about fixing things, they care about parading their tribalism. Even the relatively reasonable ones like mockturtle, much less the loons like Pants.

And this is why you cannot fix your broken system: even those who would gain from it and pretend they want it are too wee-wee-ed up with blind rage to engage. They will be even worse with Democrats, “RINOs”, and moderates so they will achieve nothing.

Which is what most of them want I expect, to stew in their outrage and irrelevance.

mccullough said...

Since voter participation was so high this past election, the Voter Disenfranchisement Brigade sounds like the Election Was Stolen Brigade.

Trump is Stacey Abrams.

doctrev said...

The Bernsteins, Mirengoffs, Shapiros, and Zuckerbergs are stabbing us in the back. Oh shock and alarm, how could this possibly have happened? If I didn't have a foolproof way of knowing who would be a traitor and who wouldn't be, I would have been shocked and disappointed by William Jacobson pronouncing the Trump movement dead.

Credit where it is due, however: Don Surber stands behind President Trump, and correctly calls Podhoretz a putz. I would have said slimy little nebbish grabbling for pennies in a sewer, but Surber's a classy guy.

Bilwick said...

Would a gang whose basic agenda consists of legalized pocket-picking and looting, and who think there is no truth but "narrative," and are fine with coercion as long as it's in a "good cause" REALLY steal an election? Come on, man!

Readering said...

People believe there was fraud because Trump, whom they respect and admire, lied on an epic scale about it with strong support from other very bad people and silence from others who knew he was lying. How the GOP/conservative establishment and press allowed that to be the case 5 years in is a mystery. Watch again the Lincoln Project short video of clips of Trump's rivals in 2015-16. They all accurately described him. Then when he won turned around and defended him to the hilt. I said in November 2016 that every day of his presidency would be the same shit show as the days of his campaign. I was right.

But hey, he really knows how to be funny at his rallies.

Clyde said...

Trump told the truth. The elect was stolen. Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining

exhelodrvr1 said...

Ken B,
The Dems have no interest in reforming the election system. That has been shown time and again over the past several decades. Same thing with the immigration system. It is working for them as is, and all they care about is power. So why should they change?

JPS said...

doctrev,

" If I didn't have a foolproof way of knowing who would be a traitor and who wouldn't be,"

You seem to have quite a handy heuristic there, doctrev. I guess no gentiles turned on Trump yesterday? Or were they, you know, tricked into it by you-know-who?

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"at best that gets Trump to a narrow victory in the Electoral College."

Oh, well. Never mind then.

mccullough said...

If people believe Trump, that’s on them.

If people believe Biden, that’s on them.

Politics approaches religion with some people.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

some of my posts:

Wow - fomenting violence?

Maxine Waters told democrat hive-minders to harass Republicans in the streets, in restaurants...

Did Trump ever do this?

All of the Antifa(D) rioting, destruction of property, public and private property - terrorizing who they want when they want without consequence or media shame?

And you say Trump fomented violence? odd.

Readering said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sebastian said...

"We need a system that is obviously trustworthy enough that the vast majority of people will trust it, and we certainly don’t have that. Other countries do."

Correct. But the more fundamental problem is that the left doesn't want trust--or at least, they want power more than trust. Trust requires belief in the system and a willingness to sustain it. The Amerikkka-is-racist pro-riot crowd does not have it. The people who went after Trump with the Russia hoax don't have it. The anti-Electoral College progs don't have it. Now the belief of part of the right is crumbling. And the reaction to righties' concern only confirms that the left doesn't give a damn about trustworthiness. Which in turn reinforces the suspicions of those righties.

Who cares about trust when you can have absolute power?

effinayright said...

Fernandinande said...
ACLU sez: "Voter identification laws are a part of an ongoing strategy to roll back decades of progress on voting rights."
******************

Seniors in FLA have to show ID that proves they are state residents before they can get a covid shot, but not to vote in elections.

Compare, contrast and defend.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

DB said - "It’s true the media and big tech was overtly pro-Biden, and while that’s
not good for democracy it’s also not illegal or fraudulent, and thus
has no bearing on whether Biden won the election or not. "


What?? We have a corrupt single-party supporting media. The media HID Biden family criminal activity.
A state-run one-party press - This is dangerous for a free society.

effinayright said...

Left Bank of the Charles said...
The vast majority of our elected representatives trust the results of the election. But I would certainly support comprehensive reform of federal elections that included eliminating the electoral college.
*****************

sure you would. That way you could be certain that NY, California and the liberal north east states would ALWAYS determine the outcome of a presidential election.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

DB said...
"There is no evidence of widespread fraud that could plausibly be said to
have cost Trump the election, nor even a single state."


I disagree. Those suitcases full of ballots hid under tables? Pulled out when they thought everyone was gone. really? Everything shut down in targeted blue cities in the wee hours - poll watchers sent home, while the Biden tally's secretly ticked up all at once? eye witness testimony in every direction.

200,000 votes in PA without an actual person to line up with those votes. Fake addresses and PO boxes... and on and on...?
The testimony in Nevada was compelling. Impossible to not understand massive fraud took place.

Trump's problem is that he didn't drain the swamp fast enough or thoroughly enough from day one.

BillieBob Thorton said...

There won't be any reform. The democrats figured out how to rig the system and will win every election going forward. Welcome to one party rule.

Rabel said...

"I haven’t blogged for a while, but I wanted to take this opportunity, with the Republican Party establishment increasingly slinking toward Trump, to express my solidarity with the NeverTrump movement.

The man is a crude charlatan, an ignoramus, a fraud, conducting a modern medicine show that combines the worst of politics with the worst of professional wrestling. He is a disaster for the Republican Party, limited government, (what remains of) decency in politics, the Constitution, and the country.

I’d rather Hillary Clinton win. I’d rather (and I never thought I’d say this) Barack Obama serve a third term. I’d even rather Bernie Sanders win, though if it came down to Sanders vs. Trump it might be time to form a breakaway republic. If Trump wins the nomination, I will actively seek to prevent him from becoming president."

- David Bernstein in the WP in 2016

Now tell me more about ad hominems.

effinayright said...

How, I wonder, is continuing to insist that you won "fomenting violence."

Was Tracy Abrams "fomenting violence" when she spent the past two years not only insisting that she won her governor's race in Georgia, but also that she was "really" the governor?

Wince said...

Notice Bernstein invokes "widespread fraud," the nebulous, elastic benchmark now invoked by those who always want to be able to revert to saying "not enough to get your panties in a twist."

In actuality, rather than widespread, one of the strongest indicators of fraud was how remarkably concentrated the anomalous results were in five Democrat-controlled swing state counties.

reader said...

What happened was wrong. Obviously. Clearly. No argument.

I include the media in the blame, though.

Drudge broke Monica Lewinsky.

National Enquirer broke Silky Pony.

Media beat the Russia story like a dead horse.

Social and Mainstream media refused to objectively address Hunter Biden.

Finally, the mainstream media refused to investigate potential vote fraud. The fact that so many people across political party believed there was fraud made it a story. It should have been investigated. If there was nothing of significance that took place it could have been presented. The numerous court battles that went against Trump should have been included in that investigation. But the approach of, "Nothing to see here, move along," doesn't constitute journalism.

It is readily apparent that the media has a preferred political party.

Clayton Hennesey said...

Even though I don't believe her husband was murdered, nor his wife raped, nor their child sodomized, then fed to pigs, I absolutely believe we should have systems in place to detect those transgressions and prevent them if at all possible.

Now stroke my head gently as if I were a kittycat while I purr in my virtue.

Clayton Hennesey said...

You realize as we type here a sitting president is being systematically unpersoned by social tech: Facebook, Twitter, even Shopify, all removing him.

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Readering said...

Yet he still controls nuke codes. Scary.

Static Ping said...

What rehajm said. Mr. Bernstein is being intentionally ignorant both of the plentiful evidence available and the way the court system has treated this matter. He has done himself no favors with this bad faith argument.

n.n said...

Thanking the assembly for their support and telling people... persons to go home is tantamount to fomenting violence. 16 trimesters of witch hunts, warlock trials, journolistic braying, and protests foments violence, and yet it never happened. Yesterday, no businesses were occupied. No neighborhoods were invaded. No people were intimidated at work, at home, or in public spaces. The violence was carried out with a disparate response from congress (and anonymous officials), the press (colored, exaggerated statements for effect), and security forces (live ammunition, disproportionate response to a minority presence). Diversity breeds adversity.

n.n said...

You realize as we type here a sitting president is being systematically unpersoned by social tech: Facebook, Twitter, even Shopify, all removing him.

In the old days, they would burn witches at the stake, dunk warlocks in the water, sacrifice babies... Fetal-Americans in rites for social progress and climate stasis. Today, nothing has changed. Forward!

Rabel said...

"You realize as we type here a sitting president is being systematically unpersoned by social tech: Facebook, Twitter, even Shopify, all removing him."

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

- Chairman Mao

When he's right he's right.

We're getting there.

doctrev said...

JPS said...
I guess no gentiles turned on Trump yesterday? Or were they, you know, tricked into it by you-know-who?

1/7/21, 11:47 AM

Not tricked. PJ Media's investors simply tugged their leashes and they submitted like the shabby guys they are. The Daily Wire was born in shadowy money from the Epstein types, so no surprise there. We could go round and round, but that won't change the fact that a vast majority of a particular ethnic elite are the worst kind of degenerate traitors. They knelt for the BLM terrorists and demand the police gun down patriots.

They're going to be very surprised at the results.

Ken B said...

Exo
I agree, the Democrat machine does not. That is why you need an approach that makes rhetorical sense to dem voters. Democrat voters are susceptible to the “be like Canada” argument. And then you can get it on the agenda. You have to appeal past the machine.
If you don’t, then what? So you need to try, and to try you need to be serious and sensible or the machine will make you look like, well like they are making you look right now.
The Trumpkins are like a petulant diabetic patient being told they have to give up sweets. “Who you calling fat? I don’t need your opinion.”

stevew said...

There's plenty of evidence, to date no proof, of so-called widespread voting irregularities and fraud. People of good will, particularly public officials, elected or not, that are committed to the Constitution and the integrity of our elections and republic, want to figure out what happened so that in the future the people that trust the result of an election nears 100%.

The simplest explanation is that everyone else, including this Bernstein guy (and Tom Cotton), is brushing aside the issue because they are pleased with the result.

Tim said...

Yeah, Bernstein is not a statistician and it shows. There are more people talking out there ass than ever, and none of them seem to be the statisticians and auditors who actually understand numbers. Look, I watched the returns and have seen enough of the numbers to know there was widespread fraud in at least 6 states. Anyone who denies it is ignorant or lying.

Clyde said...

Americans are not a people who take kindly to “shut up and obey.” Never have been. Never will be. It’s not on our DNA.

Robert Cook said...

The confused thoughts and violent actions of Trump's supporters makes nakedly clear who, all along, has been (and will continue to be) infected with Trump Derangement Syndrome!

Balfegor said...

Telling people they've been cheated isn't "fomenting violence" except in the most elastic sense of the word "foment." But by that token literally any instance of pointing out supposed injustice becomes "fomenting violence," since it could inflame people who might then be moved to violence. And that would be ridiculous.

Trump didn't behave as I would have wanted him to behave (harsh language plus crackdown on rioters), but while Trump reacting to riots like the mealy-mouthed mayors of Portland and Milwaukee is pathetic, to say the least (all the more so because President >> mayor), it's a far cry from incitement. Politicians who equate the two are revealing that they're more interested in trying to shut Trump up, no matter how specious the grounds, than they are in confronting the widespread problem of politicians cynically accommodating political violence, which exploded in 2020 and continued yesterday.

Patrick Henry was right! said...

I, for one, will refer to Biden as President Laches.

I Callahan said...

Politics approaches religion with some people.

And you're above it all, right? Virtue signaling at its finest.

That aside - there are two competing philosophies vying for the very soul of the country. And whoever loses will never be satisfied. So I'd say yeah, it's pretty important stuff.

Gusty Winds said...

"There is no evidence of widespread fraud that could plausibly be said to have cost Trump the election, nor even a single state" - This is a lie. The courts never allowed evidence to be heard. Plenty of valid, credible evidence was presented to State Legislatures. How does a law professor not know this?

We all know it was real. Even those that publish blogs and are afraid to acknowledge the truth.

cacimbo said...

I am sick of hearing there is no proof of "widespread" fraud. Over 40 million immigrants live in the USA.Unless naturalized - it is illegal for them to vote.Are there any states that require proof of citizenship before they will register you to vote? Who makes sure the rich are not voting in every state they own a home.Does anyone doubt some immigrants are voting.In CA they pretty much encourage it.When elections are so close even a few illegal votes matter. Yet Democrats keep passing laws making fraud easier with few objections from Republicans.

Rick said...

I think Glen is taking the right tact. I don't find the machine or counting fraud explanations credible. Those are easy to catch during the normal certification or recount processes and it's implausible such a wide conspiracy could occur without a single leaker which is what would be necessary to overcome the process..

But there is a significant issue of election security. There is no reason for many of the Democratic Party initiatives (i.e, removing signature validation on mail ballots) other than suborning fraud. Other initiatives have such a disproportionate priority compared to the legitimate pretext the only realistic purpose is suborning fraud (voter ID).

The process is:

1. Radicalize supporters to believe any disagreement proves the other is a fascist / Hitler / white supremacist.

2. Train them the decision to act is their own responsibility and that nothing is illegitimate - the Personal is Political, By Any Means Necessary.

3. Remove the safeguards for elections understanding that doing so will trigger a certain number of their activists to take matters into their own hands while protecting the elites by eliminating the need for direct coordination.

4. Protect your allies who act by:
a. refusing to investigate.
b. minimizing the seriousness of anyone caught.
c. arranging bail and legal defense.
d. if punished offer them financial recovery via jobs in academia and NGOs


1 & 2 above have been occurring for many decades.

3 Has always been occurring but picked up in 2006 with the Soros funded Secretary of State Project. Other occurrences include Stacy Abrams sue and settle tactic which resulted in eliminating signature verification in GA.

4 is ongoing.

- Refuse to investigate.
- When complaints arise mischaracterize simple denials as the result of an investigation.
- Claim there is no evidence of fraud.
- When people are caught claim it's not widespread enough to matter.


Understanding the fraud process above the weak links are 3 and 4. To address 3 Reps need to highlight the fraud weaknesses in advance of elections and Democratic defenses of them used to delegitimize Dems and leftists generally.

To address 4 we need to create a professional and transparent instigative process to evaluate specific charges. For example many jurisdictions reported observers removed from the rooms or placed far enough away they couldn't perform their function or otherwise interfered with. The "investigation" process which actually occurred was printing the left's denial this occurred as if that was authoritative it was final. This is a whitewash, not an investigation. A real investigation includes testing claims and assertions of all sides against each other, and exercising professional skepticism that statements are true. In most cases this has still never happened and the left's position is that no investigation is necessary unless the assertions can be first proven without one. So we need to create that mechanism and staff it with non-political people.

Richard Dolan said...

Both have a point, albeit different ones. I agree with Bernstein on the merits of the objections to the election. And Glenn's statement that the process has to be fixed to ensure trust in election results is clearly right.

If there is a silver lining to yesterday’s craziness, it is that it provides a way for all of the team Trumpers to pivot away from what is toxic about him while still trying to hold on to the positives that he and his administration were able to achieve. Barr, Mulvaney, Lindsey Graham, and most of the senators who had planned to vote in favor of the objections have all come around to that. More generally, no one ever said it would be easy to remake the Rep party into a majoritarian vehicle that can kill off the lefty-looniness the Dems want to impose.

But Trump is truly nuts, and his ego so blinds him that he can’t get out of his own way. That more than any Chicago-style shenanigans is probably the most important reason why he lost the election to a senile hack. The NYT, CNN and the other usual suspects will play up yesterday’s mostly peaceful riot for much more than it’s worth (and do it completely differently than they covered the much more destructive and dangerous riots by the Antifa/BLM crowd), but for once that will probably help the home team more than they intended or imagined.

Known Unknown said...

"that included eliminating the electoral college."

Without the Electoral College, why would states like Wyoming even participate in the Union?

Francisco D said...

Ken B said...And look at the petulant fuck you reactions from the Trumpkins. They hate me because Of their covid folly so they react to that.

Why would anyone care enough to hate you? You you never engaged your critics (like me) who pointed out serious flaws in your WuFlu arguments. Your lack of intellectual integrity makes you irrelevant on this site.

YoungHegelian said...

@stevew,

The simplest explanation is that everyone else, including this Bernstein guy (and Tom Cotton), is brushing aside the issue because they are pleased with the result.

I have another explanation for why the election corruption issue is being pushed aside -- there is no possible remediation. The only way forward if it's true is major violence by one or both sides, and many, many people in this country want to avoid that fate. For example, Scott Adams is one of the few who's honest about this. He believes the election was stolen, but that it's "Better Biden Than Burn".

I've said it before in this forum & I'll say it again -- this was a literal "Cross the Rubicon" moment in American history. A faction within the Democratic Party wanted power & the ouster of Trump so badly that they hatched a scheme to accomplish these goals that if revealed & proven will take the US to brink, if not over, of civil war. There is simply no way of unwinding what they did that significant majorities of either side will accept.

RMc said...

"Even if you believe — as David Bernstein states above — that the election didn’t turn on fraud, you should be concerned that so many people do."

Yes, but those people don't count -- being deplorables and all -- so their opinions go right into the dumpster. QED.

iowan2 said...

From Bernstein's post: "There is no evidence of widespread fraud that could plausibly be said to have cost Trump the election, nor even a single state.... And all that is why Trump’s lawyers lost every single case they brought before judges of all parties and ideologies...

So here again we have admission of voter fraud. Right out in the open, ALL admit it true.

Somehow Bernstein has been able to quantify the stealing of the election and made a determination about how much. Without an investigation no less. The man has some serious super powers.

narciso said...

https://apelbaum.wordpress.com/2021/01/07/statement-about-the-washington-times-false-claim-that-xrvision-detected-antifa-in-the-capital-building-riots/#comments

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

The people reading violence into Trump’s words are mostly projecting. They also, to my knowledge, haven’t spent any energy issuing public condemnation of Harris laughing about how the riots “aren’t going to stop. They’re not. Hee hee.” So fuck off Bernstein.

Mike Sylwester said...

Rick (at 12:45), thanks for writing such a superb comment.

mccullough said...

Callahan,

Saying that two factions are “competing for the soul of the country” is the type of politics as religion I mentioned.

Politics is not religion for me. It’s not even a contact sport.

Robert Cook said...

"We all know it was real."

No. We don't.

MD Greene said...

As a longtime none-of-the-above voter, I don't have a dog in this race. My former county's machinery, utterly incompetent, does not maintain voting lists by removing names of voters now dead or moved. It sent me a primary ballot last spring that I promptly returned with a signed notice that I had moved and was no longer eligibile. Then, months later, it sent a general election ballot, which the POSTMAN questioned -- you ever try to sell a house in NJ? -- because there were 40 ballots headed for families who had moved out of his delivery zone. If I had wanted to cast ineligible votes in the primary, in the general by mail and also in person at the polling station, I'm pretty sure I could have done it and I think I know some people who would have done it. (Me, I don't want to burn in Hell.)

The systems we have leak like sieves. Earlier this year, in ever-so-honest Philadelphia, an "election judge" pled guilty to trying to fix five local elections for sums ranging ranging from several hundred to several thousand dollars each. (Imagine a guy who believes he is not being watched pulling the lever hundreds of times in the election office.) An all-mail election in Paterson, NJ, was invalidated by a state court with not much in the way reporting about why or how; apparently some insiders were willing to pay to guarantee their sinecures.

I've talked to older people whose relatives were in on the Kennedy effort in 1960 Chicago. I've read Robert Caro on LBJ's straight-up purchases of federal offices in areas of Texas from San Antonio south. I remember Al Gore's legal team (lawyers!) trying to disqualify absentee military ballots in Florida after the 2000 general election. And more.

Little as I like politicians, especially those who go into the game to make fortunes, we're stuck with using elections to choose our "leaders".

Now, at long last, can we finally commit ourselves to guaranteeing that those elections are honest ones? Can we not have routine audits of votes cast? Can we not eliminate fake votes? Can we not sentence to prison any voter who casts a fraudulent ballot?

I'm serious here. It's not that I want my candidates to win. It's that I want MY vote to count.

Gusty Winds said...

Madison Wisconsin holds a “ballot harvesting in the park” event and collects absentee ballots in Domino’s Pizza bags. Then mixes them with all other ballots so they can’t be challenged. Completely illegal. No chain of custody possible. If it was legal, every town would do it. Arrogant, corrupt, and in your face to the rest of Wisconsin residents. That’s Madison.

And here we have a retired UW Law Professor living in and protecting Madison, America’s #1 place to retire, telling us there was no fraud and all we need is some reassurance from…the fraudsters. It’s so rich I’d all it dishonest.

I Callahan said...

Now, at long last, can we finally commit ourselves to guaranteeing that those elections are honest ones? Can we not have routine audits of votes cast? Can we not eliminate fake votes? Can we not sentence to prison any voter who casts a fraudulent ballot?. I'm serious here. It's not that I want my candidates to win. It's that I want MY vote to count.

Fair points, but no, we can't. As long as one side has the advantage by keeping the current system in place, and the other side has to manufacture votes themselves to exceed the cheating going on, it'll never happen.

I wish I had better news for you.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Dennis Prager notes... 385 lawsuits to change voting rules in2020 election. Also Morning Joe said if they were black protesters they would have been shot in the face. Joe Biden said much the same.

rcocean said...

Fuck Bernstein. Trump's trade rep Narravo wrote a whole Goddamn report on the fraud, and Trump's lawyers put data supporting the charge of faud in every legal brief. The Republican legislatures put up alternate electors because there was fraud. 17 states sued the six battleground states where the fraud was committed and wanted the SCOTUS to hear the case.

Why should I read someone who is a LIAR. Or Cuckpundit who agrees with him?

rcocean said...

Instapundit as usual is weak advocate who will accomplish nothing. Voter irregularities and fraud doesn't need to be believed or not believed. In the case of Trump-Biden, its already been proven by facts, testimony, and statistical analysis of the data.

But I've been saying from the very beginning that EVERYONE should want an honest fair election. NO ONE should want "their guy" to be elected by fraud. EVERYONE should have wanted the votes audited and if Biden won, fine. But the D's wanted to win BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY. And they will do it again in 2022 and 2024- because who's going to stop them? Certainly not Mitt Romney, Lynn Chenney, the DC Republicans or Governor Kemp.

rcocean said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BUMBLE BEE said...

Rule#1 Las Vegas didn't pay off election bets early. #2 Swing ststes verification of legal vote count = "Shut Up". In Michigan Questioning lawyers were threatened by their Soros lackey A.G.
I found this convincing...
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-2020-election-what-happened-a-political-scientists-memorandum/

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

I'm very impressed that Trump Deranged individuals who continued to promote the Comey/Clapper Coup/Russian Collusion hoax for years see fit to lecture anyone on their grasp of reality.

Inga said...

I agree with Bernstein, we should be concerned that so many people believe there was fraud and act as if the US and Trump have been defrauded. It’s a dangerous delusion.

rcocean said...

People also, deliberately, seem to be mixing up two things. 1) whether fraud occurred and 2) will the courts do anything about it.

No Democrat judge was ever going to rule for Trump and not one of them did. Either on the state or federal level. Not one D on the SCOTUS ruled for Trump and they've ruled against him on 98% of the SCOTUS cases. Pointing to D Judges ruling against Trump as proving anything, except they ALWAYS vote their politics is insane.

Even the R judges were mostly never-trumpers or they shrunk from overruling an election, no matter how much fraud was involved. Or they honestly believed "the remedy" under the law did not allow them to interfere with an election.

So, "no State Supreme Court or SCOTUS Found fraud" is a lie.

Phil 314 said...

I'm sure all of you in your lather want to go out and....

buy something ("When the going gets tough, the tough go shopping").

Therefore please don't forget to here to enter Amazon through the Althouse Portal.

I'm Not Sure said...

"Now, at long last, can we finally commit ourselves to guaranteeing that those elections are honest ones?"

Theoretically, it could be done but the people who benefit from the fraud control the process, so- no we can't.

Leland said...

What Rick said at 12:45p is the solution, now the rant:

Rioters burn down shops in Minneapolis because of a death at the hands of local police. Trump was blamed.

Rioters set fire to US National Cathedral in DC. Trump was blamed.

The DC mayor adopted the slogan of the rioters and painted the street with their message. Trump was blamed and DC mayor praised.

The DC mayor told police to stand down outside the Capitol building and refused assistance from the national guard. Trump is blamed.

Trump asked the rioters yesterday to go home. His message was banned and he is blamed for inciting violence.

Bernstein's argument is Trump deserves blame for claiming the election was stolen. For 4 years, we heard that Trump was a Russian pawn that only won thanks to their interference. The only evidence was a dossier from a UK spy based on the stories of a drunk Russian at a bar. That was enough to accuse Trump, wiretap his campaign, spend 3 years investigating the allegations, and claim he was never exonerated for the crime. Bernstein never claimed that Democrats were responsible for the violence of protesters, who believed those claims. Facebook and Twitter gave blue checkmarks to those who supported the claims of Russian interference.

Reynolds, Cruz, and, I heard this morning from my former Representative, Ted Poe have it right. What happened yesterday was wrong, and it is not what conservatives do. Liberals do it all the time, because the don't believe in the US Constitution. Now some on the right are starting to agree with liberals that the US Constitution isn't being upheld. The rioters should all be arrested and held to account to prove the system works. Trump isn't causing the system to fail. He asked AG Barr to act, and AG Barr and the rest of the DOJ stood down. If you want to stop the violence, don't blame Trump. Address the failures of the system (read Rick at 12:45p).

The people that incited yesterdays violence is the resistance movement in government and the media that cheered on that resistance. Hold them accountable and the violence will end.

Rick said...

TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...
I'm very impressed that Trump Deranged individuals who continued to promote the Comey/Clapper Coup/Russian Collusion hoax for years see fit to lecture anyone on their grasp of reality.


Yes, this reveals the stunning indifference to principle which characterizes hyper-partisans.

Leland said...

I agree with Bernstein, we should be concerned that so many people believe there was fraud and act as if the US and Trump have been defrauded. It’s a dangerous delusion.

Yet you believe it was Russian fraud that brought Trump to power. So if you agree with Bernstein, then ban yourself for inciting violence. What happens to you next is on you.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

Bernstein is correct and Reynolds is wrong. That's about all of it. That 40% of the electorate believes the election was stolen matters differently whether that was true or false. People believe lots of things - it matters whether they are true or not. It is also rather dishonest to point out that 40% believe it is stolen as if that gives the claim some credibility when lots of people at that site and other conservative sites have been telling people exactly that, with evidence that keeps evaporating. I had thought some real fraud would be uncovered and it might lead to improvements, even if it did not change the election result in any state. But that has not happened. RCocean, commenting just above me here calls Bernstein's statement a lie. It's not a lie. Rcocean's statement is. He blithely claims the judges were Democrats and mostly nevertrumpers, when Bernstein specifically mentioned that there were Trump appointees who ruled against him. Making up what their motives are is reporting from inside people's heads. No professional who say the evidence thought it was very good. The fact that other people, all of whom already believed there was fraud and few of whom are listening even to other conservatives, is only mild evidence that something might be up.

Trump had chance after chance and came up with nothing. Claiming that he won in a landslide is insane. Bluster and exaggeration are his style and he sometimes makes that work, but the time for that is now over. He can't back up what he says and it's not even close.

You can't go into court and expect to get a conviction for car theft if you can't prove the car is gone. Shouting at the judge that the accused has stolen cars before, or insisting you have proof that you live an a bad neighborhood where cars are often stolen, or that the defendant has claimed stealing cars is okay is irrelevant. You have to prove that the car has been stolen before you can expect a conviction to even be considered.

Banzel said...

The nakedly partisan decisions of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court may well have turned that state.

DT would still need at least two other stated with 18 more electoral votes.

Ryan said...

There's different kinds of evidence. *Circumstantial* evidence of fraud may exist in the obstruction of efforts to verify the vote. The would also explain the lack of *direct* evidence of fraud.

You can't destroy or prevent access to evidence, and then claim there is no evidence. Your act becomes the evidence.

D.D. Driver said...

A woman just got slaughtered in the Capital and her dying thoughts were that she was protecting children from a secret international cabal of pedophiles. It's extremely sad.

Even if I don't believe in Q Anon--it's certainly a problem that people are acting out on these conspiracies and delusions.

But I don't think the solution is to play into the delusions.

Matt Sablan said...

Do we have an actual recording of her dying thoughts?

Jerry said...

"Now, at long last, can we finally commit ourselves to guaranteeing that those elections are honest ones?"

How?

There's a fire, set by arsonists with gasoline. Do you believe that giving them more gasoline will cause the fire to go out?

The systems that are broken won't be fixed by people who get a strategic advantage from them being broken. In Georgia, ANY attempt to verify voter registrations will be blocked with screams of racism, as will any attempt to insure that a voter has valid ID.

How do you fix a system where the people who run it are determined to keep it broken?

DeepRunner said...

Glenn Reynolds is right. We need the fail-safes, not the quick hits that fundamentally changed the voting landscape. One citizen, one vote. In person. With valid ID. Signature validation. Poll watchers who are allowed to watch instead of having their view blocked. Transparency if there is suspicion about the automation.

Little chance of that happening with the Dems now in charge. Why change what worked? How long 'til the UN has to send in monitors for US elections? Oy, vey.

Gusty Winds said...

It really makes you wonder if the late night Milwaukee ballot dumb that took Scott Walker out as Wisconsin Governor and gave us our Kenosha burning Governor Evers was legit…. Madison will use and abuse Milwaukee to protect their land of crazy make believe.

Skeptical Voter said...

Bernstein writes "even if you accept any of the non completely crazy theories, at best Trump gets to a narrow victory in the Electoral College".

Well Mr. Bernstein, even the Kentucky Derby winner--who wins by a nose has a narrow victory--but it's a victory none the less. And if one of those "non crazy theories" is correct--then the election was stolen.

Maybe that non crazy theory (which ever one Bernstein thinks is non completely crazy" is correct. Maybe it is not. In which case Biden won the election.

But there will always be one bis asterisk on this election. And now we have Piranha Pelosi yelling for impeachment again when the dude is gone in just two weeks. There's an old army joke about a drill sergeant telling his trainees that they would probably come to urinate on his grave. The punch line is "No Sarge, after I get out of the Army, I'm never standing in line again." In a just world the line by Pelosi's grave would be two miles long.

Balfegor said...

Re: Assistant Village Idiot:

I had thought some real fraud would be uncovered and it might lead to improvements, even if it did not change the election result in any state. But that has not happened.

Evidence of fraud has been presented, including eyewitness evidence (although some of those eyewitnesses and statistical experts are less than credible -- his lawyers have been indiscriminate). Even Bernstein tacitly admits that there's a lot of smoke here.

But the problem Trump's campaign has in court is well, what then? Their proposed remedies (e.g., just ignore votes of states where there are eyewitness accounts of fraud) are extreme, particularly in cases where the eyewitness can only say something happened at this or that polling station, and you then have to extrapolate to get numbers big enough to affect the result. You'd go from disenfranchising maybe a couple thousand or tens of thousands of voters whose votes might have been cancelled out by fraudulent votes to disenfranchising the entire electorate of a state. The evidence they've presented is probably enough to justify looking closer. This is particularly true of the statistical evidence, where maybe that points you to the precincts where investigators should look more closely for direct evidence of fraud, but it would be highly problematic to toss out ballots on the basis of nothing more than a statistical model. The possibility for abuse should be immediately obvious; no one should want judges to have that kind of power.

The evidence needed to start an investigation and the evidence needed to go all the way and throw out the election results are, rightly, very different. Mixed in with some junk, I think Trump's team has met the former in some cases. But they've been asking the courts for the latter, and I don't think one can reasonably believe they've met that burden.

D.D. Driver said...

Do we have an actual recording of her dying thoughts?

Yes. It's in the same file cabinet as all the "evidence" of widespread voter fraud.

Matt Sablan said...

Right, so, I'd suggest not lying about people's dying thoughts.

chickelit said...

Why is the question of suspected fraud only a problem fro Trump supporters? Why no mention of suspected fraud being a serious problem for Dem voters in 2016. They spent 4 years trying to prove it, unsuccessfully. Why the double standard. That is the real problem here.

Waiting for the Ingas and the Karens to deny that they suspected fraud in 2016 and that they wholly supported the witch hunt.

mandrewa said...

I hate these comparisons to the Russian hoax. The Russian thing was something that never on its best day had any real evidence for it. And it would have been kind of a theoretical wrong even it were true.

In contrast we have a huge amount of evidence of election fraud. In fact the shear mass of it is part of what makes it so difficult to discuss. Any person interested in election fraud, that is not absolutely determined not to see it, has a huge choice of different issues to pursue.

And some of it is totally undeniable. Who seriously disputes that Republican witnesses were ejected or not allowed to observe the vote counting in many crucial precincts?

But of course that's naive. We can find plenty of shit-for-brains, disingenuous, and partisan assholes in the media and in academia and on this comment thread to deny even the most blatantly obvious truths.

We, that is people that care about the truth, are just being kicked in the face constantly, every single day. Is this going to be truth the rest of lives? That is assuming we are not lined and shot at some point, as in what is happening to people in China.

FullMoon said...

PERFECT TIMING:

"TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...

I'm very impressed that Trump Deranged individuals who continued to promote the Comey/Clapper Coup/Russian Collusion hoax for years see fit to lecture anyone on their grasp of reality.
1/7/21, 1:41 PM "

Inga said...

I agree with Bernstein, we should be concerned that so many people believe there was fraud and act as if the US and Trump have been defrauded. It’s a dangerous delusion
1/7/21, 1:42 PM

Leland said...

Re Balfegor:

Very good response. I agree with your point on how Trump's legal approach hurt efforts to start an investigation.

The violence yesterday is due to the imbalance of that hurdle. Compare what was needed to launch a 3 year investigation into foreign interference in an election with the bar needed to get any investigation into claims made by US citizens in 2020.

A couple of drunks sat a bar stool and told a British spy stories with no verifiable evidence, and that was perfectly sufficient for the FBI to wiretap Trump campaign phone lines, discuss findings with Obama officials, share information gained from wiretaps with the media, push for a special prosecutor, and never provide any evidence that backed up a claim made in the original dossier. Millions was spent in investigation with most of that money enriching the very people that supported the foreign dossier.
Then there is this evidence.

RigelDog said...

How can someone who is as immersed in current politics as Bernstein falsely state that courts have found no evidence of fraud? Courts have not even examined 99% of the evidence!

I'm a trial attorney. I know what evidence is, and is not. Right now we have a lot of data and eyewitness affidavits, and until there are serious, evidence-based hearings where witnesses are put under oath and discovery is complete, no one can state anything with certainty.

What we actually do have for a certainty are a LOT of good questions, and no way to answer those questions because the voting system is sickeningly non-transparent.

iowan2 said...

Inga said...
I agree with Bernstein, we should be concerned that so many people believe there was fraud and act as if the US and Trump have been defrauded. It’s a dangerous delusion.


For the slow witted posters here, this directly from Bernstein

"There is no evidence of widespread fraud that could plausibly be said to have cost Trump the election, nor even a single state.

I don't believe there was fraud. I know there was, and Bernstein, and all the leftist admit it. "but not ENOUGH to change the outcome....but we never investigated, so it could be anything...except zero"

Bilwick said...

Readering says of Trump: "But hey, he really knows how to be funny at his rallies."

If Biden (or his super-serf Readering, for that matter) wanted to be funny he could try to explain the laws of economics or logic.

RigelDog said...

Left Bank of the Charles said: "But I would certainly support comprehensive reform of federal elections that included eliminating the electoral college."

Give me ONE principled argument for not reforming elections to include more certainty and more transparency? Why in the name of Fraggle Rock would eliminating fraud (or the appearance of fraud) have to be a partisan issue??

JaimeRoberto said...

Probably every one of us here can think of several ways to commit voter fraud. Election officials need to either show us that we are wrong or elected officials need to change the system to make it impossible, or at least negligible.

It shouldn't be too hard for election officials to show how the process works. Make a series of Youtube videos. Here's how voter registration works. Here's how we prevent ineligible people from registering. Here's how we prevent double registrations. Here's how we remove dead people from the list. Here's how we check signatures on mail-in votes. Here's how the votes are counted. This is who gets to observe.

It's not enough for politicians to wave their hands and say "Trust us".

I'm Not Sure said...

"Any person interested in election fraud, that is not absolutely determined not to see it, has a huge choice of different issues to pursue."

This is why any attempt to look into the issue had to be squelched. One thing leads to another and pretty soon, you uncover enough fraud that it would make a difference.

I keep coming back to- if the fraud deniers are so sure of themselves, why did they insist so adamantly that no investigating be allowed?

Jupiter said...

"There is no evidence of widespread fraud that could plausibly be said to have cost Trump the election, nor even a single state ..."

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Paul said...

The evidence of fraud is overwhelming.. but the 'officials' just turn a blind eye.

And that is the cause of the unrest.

stever said...

That they can’t count all the votes in a timely manner in only a few spots, tells me they don’t want to.

Ajnal said...

so republican controlled legislatures, republican governors, and republican secretaries of state across the country participated in the fraud.

got it.

Jupiter said...

Blogger Chuck said...
"To be even CLEARER, an ad hominem attack on Bernstein doesn’t address the merits of what he writes."

So true. And pointing out that you still have that huge dick in your mouth doesn't make you any easier to understand. It's basically just an ad cocksucker attack.

Let me guess, you're trying to say something about a "moderated forum". Spit it out, Chuckles.

Leland said...

In a just world the line by Pelosi's grave would be two miles long.

Now you are just bragging.

I'm Not Sure said...

"so republican controlled legislatures, republican governors, and republican secretaries of state across the country participated in the fraud."

Audit everything. Anyone guilty of fraud goes to prison. Work for you?

mandrewa said...

"It shouldn't be too hard for election officials to show how the process works. Make a series of Youtube videos. Here's how voter registration works. Here's how we prevent ineligible people from registering. Here's how we prevent double registrations. Here's how we remove dead people from the list. Here's how we check signatures on mail-in votes. Here's how the votes are counted. This is who gets to observe."

Yes. That would be so easy to do, wouldn't it? In fact one wonders why that doesn't already exist.

But here is the issue. If you lay out the rules and make it clear what was supposed to happen, then that makes it easier for people to recognize when something is wrong.

Most states have rules about how their election is to be conducted rather clearly stated somewhere. But of course most people don't know those rules.

And because of that, one part of the evidence of election fraud is all of the states where the election did not follow the process clearly laid out and described by their legislature. How is that legal? How is that a legitimate election?

How is legitimate for the Dane County government to ignore the rules laid down by the legislature for Wisconsin elections? How is legitimate for the City of Milwaukee to violate these rules in many different ways?

And the same can be said for many other states. But not of all of them. We have some states that have elections that follow the rules (I'm talking about that states rules, because it's different for different states). And I don't mean they are perfect. There is always some problem in some corner somewhere. But we do not see systematic fraud in many states. And in others we do.

bagoh20 said...

Previously we were told there was no fraud, so we didn't have to look at the evidence. Now everybody knows and is admitting there was fraud. The new stand is to refuse to look at how much there was so we can keep saying it didn't matter. Eventually we will get to the point where it becomes, yea, it might have mattered, but it's too late now. This is the well worn playbook for corruption, and how the Democrats usually break rules and standards. In the end, they get what they want, know they cheated, but never admit to it, never regret it, and go right back to the same plan next time. It's the dummies who keep supporting them who are letting the country down.

Ajnal said...

works for me.

Ajnal said...

Not everyone is admitting there was fraud. It is difficult to believe republicans in charge of elections ignored it.

Why did all these republican run states certify fraudulent elections putting biden in the presidency?

Matt Sablan said...

A. They hate Trump.

B. They didn't bother to investigate and don't believe there could be fraud in their state.

C. They believe the reports from their underlings that there was no fraud and don't look at potential evidence/statements about potential fraud.

There's probably a few dozen more reasons a Republican might certify an election, even a fraudulent one. And they can be reasons ranging from complicity to incompetency to honest mistakes. "Why did someone do something odd" is not an effective defense.

Curious George said...

"It's the dummies who keep supporting them who are letting the country down."

It's also a problem with these pussy GOP controlled state governments that don't clamp down on election abuses. Or firm up laws. Wisconsin being a primary example. And then you get assholes like Linsay Graham saying "I tried to be helpful. But when the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled 4-3 that they didn’t violate the constitution of Wisconsin, I agreed with the three, but I accept the four."

That isn't even close to what happened in the Wisconsin SC. The did not rule that actions taken by clerks in Dane and Milwaukee County were lawful. The ruled earlier they were not. The said 4-3 that Trump was too late filing his suit, it should have come before the election. They also ruled that his remedy was not acceptable (throwing out Dane and Milwaukee ballots only). The roughly 200,000 mail in votes in question would have to be verified individually, and of course there was no time.

Curious George said...

"TheOne Who Is Not Obeyed said...
I'm very impressed that Trump Deranged individuals who continued to promote the Comey/Clapper Coup/Russian Collusion hoax for years see fit to lecture anyone on their grasp of reality.

1/7/21, 1:41 PM

Blogger Inga the Russian Hoax Poster Child One Minute Later said...
I agree with Bernstein, we should be concerned that so many people believe there was fraud and act as if the US and Trump have been defrauded. It’s a dangerous delusion.

1/7/21, 1:42 PM

Jim at said...

I agree with Bernstein, we should be concerned that so many people believe there was fraud and act as if the US and Trump have been defrauded. It’s a dangerous delusion.

People who fervently believed in the Russia Hoax for the last three years have absolutely no say in the matter. They should be roundly mocked and laughed at.

Rt41Rebel said...

"Why did all these republican run states certify fraudulent elections putting biden in the presidency?"

Because the Democrats showed them for over 6 months what would happen to their cities if they didn't? Just spitballing here.

madAsHell said...

Yeah.....the ammo shelf at the sporting goods store is STILL empty!!

narciso said...

a supreme court secured through 'indefinite confinement' so as with the pennsylvania legislature their petition was too early, then it was too late to do anything,

FullMoon said...

Rt1Rebel said...

"Why did all these republican run states certify fraudulent elections putting biden in the presidency?"

Because the Democrats showed them for over 6 months what would happen to their cities if they didn't? Just spitballing here.

Sometimes it comes down to personal level.Following orders and encouragement from Dem politicians, media, leftist celebrities, Demonstraters showing up at your home, harrassing you in public, searching your highschool yearbook or twitter feed for embarrassing things to cancel you.

Really have to wonder how many politicians have something hanging over their heads they do not want exposed.

n.n said...

a supreme court secured through 'indefinite confinement' so as with the pennsylvania legislature their petition was too early, then it was too late to do anything,

Another Covid-19 miracle.

~ Gordon Pasha said...

Mark McGwire 70 HR in a season *

Joe Biden 81,009,468 votes 2020 *

n.n said...

People who fervently believed in the Russia Hoax for the last three years have absolutely no say in the matter. They should be roundly mocked and laughed at.

It was published in NYT, WaPo et al, and shown on CNN until it was virtually indistinguishable from reality, so it must be true.

I'm Not Sure said...

"Why did all these republican run states certify fraudulent elections putting biden in the presidency?

Just got back to this thread, I see others have responded.

Will said...

The loser in this is Biden, who will never be accepted as a legitimate President. Never. Ever.

It would have been in Biden's interest to allow the audits to explain the anomalies.

I completely reject Bernstein's premise there was not enough fraud to swing the election. There most certainly was. And that is hanging like a Sword of Damocles over Biden and always will.. He is an asterisk.

Matt Sablan said...

"How can you know there wasn't enough fraud to swing the election if we haven't investigated to find out how much fraud there was?"

Qwinn said...

"He blithely claims the judges were Democrats and mostly nevertrumpers, when Bernstein specifically mentioned that there were Trump appointees who ruled against him"

Trump appointees picked from the Federalist Society list. I think it's very safe to say now that the Federalist Society has been completely infiltrated.

Tom said...

There is evidence of fraud that no court listened to. It’s at least enough evidence to warrant criminal investigations.

At the same time, the state legislature of PA, GA, MI, WI, AZ, and NV did listen to the evidence. They have 100% of the constitutional power to select different electors. Either because of a lack of evidence or a lack of conviction, those legislators didn’t act.

It is not Congress’ responsibility nor does Congress have the authority to challenge those electors unless a state sends conflicting electors. None did.

Sending an angry mob to March in the capitol wasn’t telling the mob to be violent. So, as a citizen, Trump didn’t technically violate the law against inciting riots. But, presidents are hired for far more than to exercise their right to free speech. We hire presidents to defend the constitution and promote rule of law and order. Yesterday, Trump failed in that most basic responsibility at a level that warrants his removal from office.

This is the forth president in a row I believe should have been removed from office for major violations of their oath of office or crimes against humanity.

n.n said...

A. They hate Trump.

He exposed diversity (e.g. racism) and exclusion. The feminist motive and betrayal. The Obama/Biden legacy of wars without borders, transnational terrorism, reordered claims, and catastrophic anthropogenic immigration reform. He addressed the several causes of progressive prices in the medical and pharmaceutical sectors. He opposed spread of the Green Blight (e.g. "climate change", shifted responsibility, obfuscated hazards). He stood up to Chinese human rights abuses, aggressive expansion, arbitrage games, and foreign collusion. He reenergized the economy. He pursued well received polices of revitalization, rehabilitation and reconciliation in urban, suburban, and rural spaces. He reduced the military burden, and renewed their resources. He brought forth early treatments (e.g. HCQ cocktail) for Covid-19 and other corona viruses. He accelerated development of vaccines, useful and safe for some, perhaps many people (vaccines are not a magical elixir). Above all, he was all-American: Pro-Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness, without diversity for all. He stepped on the toes of a lot of special and peculiar interests, foreign and domestic.

steve uhr said...

Quinn. I asked this in an earlier post and did not see your answer.

Were you inside the capitol yesterday? If you were, I hope you smiled for one of the hundreds of cameras. If you were not, why not? That is just what you have been saying should be done for months. Cold feet?

D.D. Driver said...

I'm a trial attorney. I know what evidence is, and is not. Right now we have a lot of data and eyewitness affidavits, and until there are serious, evidence-based hearings where witnesses are put under oath and discovery is complete, no one can state anything with certainty.

Tell me which cases Trump's lawyers have even tried to present evidence of "fraud." In all of the serious cases, Trump's lawyers are very careful to emphasize they are not arguing about fraud. As a lawyer, why do you think Trump's lawyers are so apprehensive about putting their witnesses on the stand and submit them to cross-examination? Why would you tweet about it but be so terrified to put your "evidence" to the test?

I know the answer.

Personally, I'd love to see it. Air it live on cable. I would love---love, love, love, love, looooooove--to watch all these kooks and crackpots get carved up on cross examination.

Man With a Spoon said...

40% of the USA thinks the election was fraudulent.

steve uhr said...

DD Driver

I too would like to see all the hundreds of Jane and John Doe anonymous affiants be cross examined. Assuming one can figure out who they are. What a joke.

madAsHell said...

I too would like to see all the hundreds of Jane and John Doe anonymous affiants be cross examined. Assuming one can figure out who they are. What a joke.

I guess that's the point you moron.

madAsHell said...

I can hardly wait for the inaugural speech!!

"and;fasiupioj.......com'n man!! You know the thing!!"

madAsHell said...

If you didn't vote for Joe Biden, then you're not black.

Banzel said...

The nakedly partisan decisions of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court may well have turned that state. But it won't be labeled fraud due to the judicial cloak.

DT would still need at least two other states with 18 more electoral votes.

steve uhr said...

Don’t forget about the nakedly partisan decisions of SCOTUS, the conservative WI Supreme Court, and the many trump appointed trial and appellate court judges who ruled against him.

boatbuilder said...

What the "courts", including the Supremes said was that the "remedy" for election malfeasance is exactly what Trump did-or tried to do, and has been vilified for.Take it to the state legislatures and to Congress.

Unfortunately the political class has deemed resort to the Constitution to be treasonous, along with any questioning by the wrong people of the validity of the process.

So here we are.

Apparently things are only "unconstitutional" when they don't work the way the political class wants.

Butkus51 said...

so then a ton of people are lying and should be prosecuted

a lot of people

poll watchers

that Indian woman from Detroit, all lies.



effinayright said...

steve uhr said...
DD Driver

I too would like to see all the hundreds of Jane and John Doe anonymous affiants be cross examined. Assuming one can figure out who they are. What a joke.

*************
It's not uncommon for affiants' personal information be kept sealed until a complaint is accepted and becomes a case. Otherwise the affiants might be harassed, doxxed or even killed.

They are only "anonymous" until the discovery process begins, when such people would have to testify under oath and their names then released.

So the joke's on...you.

Fuckwit.

daskol said...

The evidence of fraud is overwhelming.. but the 'officials' just turn a blind eye.

And that is the cause of the unrest.


Well put, Paul. People of course blame Trump for the ruckus at the Capital, but Pence is more responsible for it. In running out the clock and announcing only hours before he went in to the Capital that he would do nothing, he represented the last straw--the last "constitutional" means of redress. People will hate Trump all the more because what he's saying about this joke of an election is true, and because he won't shut up about it. He's terribly inconvenient to all the people who want to move on from this debacle.

Why is a group of patriotic Americans, denied redress by the courts, their own state and federal legislators and ultimately their supposedly allied VP, PROTESTING a corrupted election and an equally corrupted process of redress, something to be ashamed of? Why does this tarnish Trump or the protesters or the movement? Every time a Bernstein or a Fox talking head or Biden calls these protests riots, ritually condemns these Americans, I become more convinced of the righteousness of protesting this farce of representative government. People hate what they're seeing on TV, and would love to scapegoat the people calling attention to it, but fuck the lily-livered who succumb to the pressure to condemn what we saw. What needs to be condemned is the conduct of our government at all levels for years now, most especially the brazen behavior in the lead up and during and aftermath of the election.

Trump and Trump supporters didn't kill our democracy. All they did was shine a light on how fucked up it is, and they remain our best hope for restoration of norms. That's their, our, unforgivable sin. Blaming the ugliness we see around us on the people forcing the nation to confront it is wrong, and I don't think it will work. Biden called me a domestic terrorism supporter today. He called a lot of people domestic terrorists, illegitimate, all kinds of names. Biden is inflaming the situation, even more than that weasel Pence did. Trump is indeed looking like a modern day George Danton, and the cowardly behavior of his supposed allies in recent weeks indicates a similar trajectory for him. They hate him because he fights.

daskol said...

Yesterday, that was a protest. A great big protest full of the kind of people who don't do that much, rather than miscreants and semi-professional agitators who did this thing for a living. Calling them, and 10s of millions of Americans, domestic terrorists and supporters of domestic terrorism, as Biden did today, is a massive escalation of the conflict. Biden turned the heat way up. Bernstein and the rest of the pearl-clutching Trump haters should talk about that, maybe.

daskol said...

All the allegations of election fraud have been debunked. They sprinkled magic debunking powder all over Navarro's report, over all the statistical evidence of the improbability of it all, over Jovan Pulitzer's informed allegations. Magic debunking powder is powerful, if you believe in it. If you don't, well, it looks a lot like the points and arguments have not been even contested let alone refuted.

Stephen said...

Reynolds ducks Bernstein's main point, which is that Trump is unfit given his repeatedly debunked and false claims that the election was stolen, his disrespect for law, and his encouragement and condoning of mob rule.

“You are beautiful and we love you.” Sick.

So much for the idea that Reynolds is a straight shooter. He can’t bring himself to say even what Lindsey Graham has said, let alone Barr or Mattis.

Yes, it’s true that many Americans distrust the electoral process, but that’s not because it’s actually leaky. Trumps own officials have testified that this was the most secure election in American history. The distrust is because they have been lied to, most importantly by Trump himself. So the distrust is ultimately further evidence of Trump’s unfitness.

So much for

Jupiter said...

"We need a system that is obviously trustworthy enough that the vast majority of people will trust it, and we certainly don’t have that. Other countries do."

It is occurring to me, that perhaps this is yet another case of American exceptionalism. Once again, patriotic Americans are ahead of the curve.

Assistant Village Idiot said...

The things that are called "statistical evidence" are not real evidence, they are motivated manipulations of numbers. They are just crap. So cut all of that out of discussion, please. Anyone who brings such things up I dismiss as having no sense. Proving you live in a bad neighborhood is not proof that your car was stolen. As for the sworn affidavits they exist, as Bernstein noted, but do not amount to much as a practical matter. For those who protest that the principle matters and such things need to be investigated for their own sake, regardless of their effect on elections I might agree. Apparently Donald Trump does not, preferring to rail about landslides and setting his attorneys on wild-goose chases. If he ever had a case, he pissed it away by not being prepared despite shouting all summer that it was all crooked. When you are president, you should be able to manage a two-car funeral.

Please take the matter up with him.

It has been clearer and clearer since November 3 that one side is listening and one side is not. This is not actually a discussion, and you just don't see it.

I'm Not Sure said...

Our new Hairsniffer-in-Chief- looks about right.

Jupiter said...

What is missing from this analysis is an understanding of why we have elections. We do not have elections because we are all deeply concerned that our government should be run in the fashion that is agreeable to the largest possible number of our fellow citizens. We have elections because we believe we are fundamentally a community, with a common purpose, and our disagreements are about ways and means, not ends.

Oh, excuse me. Was I using the present tense? Silly me.

Edmund said...

The phone call to the Georgia Secretary of State was the last straw for me. President Trump repeatedly brought up every crackpot allegation that have no basis in fact.

The Dominion machines have no problems - the hand count matched the machine count to within a handful of votes (37 IIRC). The videos that show ballots being pulled out from under a table in "a suitcase" are selectively edited and misunderstood. It's a ballot container. It was filled and sealed earlier in the day, as shown on video. The pipe break was actually an overflowing urinal, and happened at the start of the day, not later in the day.

The allegations of underage voters are false. At most 74 felons voted (and it may be less due to duplicate names and birth dates). The "PO Box" voters aren't PO Box voters, they are in apartment complexes that use box numbers. All these points and more have been addressed by the SoS office. Video here. https://www.npr.org/2021/01/04/953321408/georgia-election-official-dont-let-misinformation-suppress-your-own-vote

Jupiter said...

At this point, democracy in America is like a wolf and two hundred sheep, voting on what to have for lunch. Turns out it's a slight majority for mutton. Huh.

FullMoon said...

28 Times Media And Democrats Excused Or Endorsed Violence Committed By Left-Wing Activists

Rt41Rebel said...

The gaslighting will continue until morale improves.

daskol said...

The things that are called "statistical evidence" are not real evidence, they are motivated manipulations of numbers. They are just crap. So cut all of that out of discussion, please. Anyone who brings such things up I dismiss as having no sense.

Spoken like an innumerate ostrich. There are people out there who can look at data analysis and see, right away, whether it's biased or simply stupid manipulation of numbers, or if it's teasing out meaningful insights. We have a whole lot of fact of factors that typically correlate with winning an election, so longstanding and so commonly met that they represent "the book" on predicting and making sense of American elections. You know psephology. And nearly ALL of those indicators, from electorate stuff primary turnout and support, to bellwether counties or states, to voter registration trends to economic trends in the months prior to the vote, say Trump should have won. So we're already looking at a once in a lifetime, throw out the book and write a new one type event, with a superstar politician who compels us to reevaluate all we thought we knew about American presidential elections. That's all highly suggestive, but proof of nothing.

Then you have the people who've looked at things like election night vote counts, the turnout numbers in neighboring and similar states, comparisons to 2016 results, etc. If you didn't think Joe Biden's win was an amazing feat against steep odds, when you've looked at how the win actually manifest, alongside the broader set of results, you're in for a real treat: you thought you were looking at a once in a lifetime political talent in Joe, but now you begin to realize it's more like a one in the entire record history of electoral talents event. Or maybe, more likely, it's a put-on.

The kernel of truth is that the statistical analysis can't prove anything, but you're a fool if you don't think it says anything, very very loudly.

I'm Not Sure said...

"Spoken like an innumerate ostrich."

To be fair, this is America- math be hard.

BUMBLE BEE said...

The safeguards, (election laws), were brazenly ignored in the swing states and their legislatures did not challenge the results. Stolen. Second time dems stole an election in my lifetime. 1960 Kennedy. Wait for the deification of the sleaziest family by the hero starved press. Jill Biden on the cover of the magazines. Trump accomplished too much and showed how corrupt the swamp is. All his rats scurrying for a gig @ CNN. Hear anything about/from those evil Koch brothers lately. Everybody scramblin to China bux. My high school history teacher always said it would be the "three piece suits" sellin us to the commies.

Jupiter said...

I don't think the citizens of the Confederate States of America believed that Lincoln's election was fraudulent. They were simply unwilling to continue in a union over which he presided.

It's a nice point, really. If the electoral votes of, say, Pennsylvania were in fact stolen, from whom were they stolen? The legal voters of Pennsylvania, clearly. So, if they do not complain, or their complaints are suppressed, and their property confiscated, and they are thrown into prison or executed for their political or religious beliefs, how does that concern me? Obviously, I have no standing to complain. It is my duty, legal, moral, ethical and patriotic, to continue to give my full allegiance to whatever corrupt, reeking atrocity their stolen votes have been used to install in control of what was my nation.

n.n said...

Trump and Trump supporters didn't kill our democracy. All they did was shine a light on how fucked up it is

Exactly. Trump wants to audit the vote in several jurisdictions where irregular processes were reported. The People (i.e. citizens) want to have standing and confidence in their nation. Democracy is aborted in darkness, behind a wall, under a veil of disinformation. You would think that WaPo et al would know better. #HateLovesAbortion #AshliBabbitt #RIP

mandrewa said...

Edmund said, "The videos that show ballots being pulled out from under a table in "a suitcase" are selectively edited and misunderstood. It's a ballot container. It was filled and sealed earlier in the day, as shown on video."

Well this is better than the vacuous claims that there was nothing wrong in that this response actually discusses an issue. So thank you, Edmund. But I think your response falls a bit short. Now I'm not expert about this. The only reason and I can say anything is because I watched the video.

First off, you makes several assertions that you present as refutations of this claim but the
information is actually in the video that you are attempting to refute.

1) "It was filled and sealed earlier in the day, as shown on video." Yes, and guess what! The video shows that! The original video that came out as evidence of vote fraud, shows that. This wasn't evidence that was edited away to deceive people. It was in the original video, and the person talking about the fraud actually states that the containers were put under the table at the beginning of the day as shown by the hidden camera, and before vote counting had started.

So I suspect you have been deceived. Someone that you believe in took that video, edited out this information, and then pretended that it wasn't in there originally.

2) "Suitcase." It was just a verbal error. Big deal. You and others make out like it's deception. She just used the wrong word to describe the containers.

And that's all you wrote about this. That's the end of your refutation of the whole thing!

Isn't there anything else about that scene and that story that crosses your mind as being problematic or even outrageously wrong?

So I'm asking you to look at yourself and ask yourself what's going in your head? Why are you missing, and not addressing, the real issue?

320Busdriver said...

It seems to me that establishing transparent and fair elections is the most critical problem that our representatives HAVE to solve. Ignore it/ us and you will have more of what we saw yesterday, as wrong as it was. Guaranteed.

If the winners of this election use what happened yesterday to crack down on their political enemies. To ignore the millions who don’t trust the process. To censor those who don’t fall in line. Or to penalize or cancel anyone who disagrees with them then we’ll know that they have not learned a thing from what we saw and that they have no desire or ability to right the deficiencies in our systems. We’ve passed the point of no return. Trust has been lost. We can never again allow unelected bureaucrats make changes to a states election processes and there can be no differences between how elections are conducted in the largest of cities and smallest of villages.

You can scream “baseless” debunked” “ unverified” all you want, but don’t expect anyone on the other side to listen to one more word that comes out of your mouth. This will identify you as part of the problem and people will then know that you can not be taken seriously.

daskol said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DanTheMan said...

>> Trump, while telling the rioters to go home, also continued to insist that he really won in a landslide, thus continuing to foment violence."

When Hillary told us she should be 50 points ahead, and then claimed the election was stolen by Russians for Trump, was that fomenting violence?

daskol said...

A symptom of TDS I've encountered a lot lately: you find the election plausible, that Biden got more votes than any candidate in history, because they radically overestimate Trump hatred, a symptom correlated with smart people surrounded by people who all profess Trump hatred.

Filed under, how people miss the nose on their face in a hall of mirrors

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

SEEN ON BACK OF A LOCAL AUDI - WITH
a Thule on top.
Written across the back window:

"THE ONLY THING TO FEAR IS FALLING VICTIM TO THE NARRATIVE OF THE MAINSTREAM NEWS AND CENSORED SOCIAL MEDIA."

#BE A CRITICAL THINKER" - written to the side on an angle.

5M said...

Ken B said...
Look back at the threads of the past few days where I have been pushing easy reforms.

I missed the post where you posted easy reforms. The few posts I read of yours like this one you didn't seem to be saying anything related to reform? Maybe link back to your main post for a few days?

Qwinn said...

Okay, I have an idea. A way to force a proper investigation.

What do those who know the fraud was real and it was spectacular think about a National Strike for Election Integrity? Get everyone who is outraged to stop going to work until the matter is addressed in a reasonable manner. A list of grievances and a list of demands that an investigation be begun, and a list of things. We won't be your slaves. And we do this in solidarity with those whose livelihoods by the COVID manipulation that was used to enable the fraud.

I know lots of you are retired but for those who aren't, would you (and would you if you could)? Would anyone sitting next to you now do it?

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

"saying he really won" is not fomenting violence.


The left foment violence every day with their crap and lies. Look at Antifa nazi brownshirts and what they have done. oh right- total blackout from the MSM

5M said...

Let's have a national voterID that is teched. Anyone that has a hard time getting one can be tracked down by Dem operatives. Add a gun ownership line that pre qualifies a person to have passed a background checked for gun ownership. Cement voterID and gun ownership in the wallets of every amen and awoman in the country.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

ACE:

National Review's Andy McCarthy: It Was Impeachable for Trump to Give a Speech to Protesters
—Ace

"You're going to be finding out that a lot of things previously thought wholly legal are now criminal.

Remember, they're imposing authoritarian rule and a regime of political prosecutions in order to save our country from authoritarianism. "

Qwinn said...

Bleah, hit publish before editing that. But the general idea of a national strike that lasts until the evidence is investigated, would you consider doing it?

It would be hilarious to watch lefties act outraged at the idea of a strike as a negotiating tactic, if nothing else.

5M said...

Mail in voting. It should be a system where the person makes the effort to vote on their own. not a system where Facebook harvests their vote for them and then spends it the way Facebook wants to.

There should be one signature only on a mail in ballot. Not one plus a witness. We have the tech now to scan that ballot in and text message the person back with their voting status. Anytime.

voting machines need to be certified to be free of any type of foreign influence.

Qwinn said...

And an alternate possible demand: a revote as well, with full voter integrity measures restored.

5M said...

BidenFamilyTaxPayerFundedCrackPipe said...
ACE:

National Review's Andy McCarthy: It Was Impeachable for Trump to Give a Speech to Protesters
—Ace


Every person posting on Parler then is guilty of treason.

n.n said...

Remember, they're imposing authoritarian rule and a regime of political prosecutions in order to save our country from authoritarianism. "

Yes. The governing spectrum is from right: anarchist to left: totalitarian, and a left-right nexus that is leftist. All Maoists, Nazis, Fascists were leftists, but not all leftists are Maoists, Nazis, Fascists, etc. #Diversity #JewPrivilege #RedistributiveChange #PlannedParent/hood #HateLovesAbortion

5M said...

Trumps main problem seems to have been a lack of talented people without swamp connections.

I still fail to see where he did anything that was bad. He had the best interests of the country at heart. Jobs. Middle East Peace. The voting process. Business with China. North Korean Peace. Big Tech management. No wars. That's just at a high level. If you drill down into it he was more productive in 4 years than the last 2 presidents.

All of his critics are people losing money and influence because he was transparent. Trump was redistributing power to the citizen through all of the above.

Ken B said...

Night
Assuming against the odds you are a good faith poster I suggested that ballot reform is possible by pushing for a system that looks like Canada's, and doing it explicitly in those terms because Democrat voters are sympathetic to the argument “like Canada does”. That for example is a key argument the left uses on healthcare.

The main elements of that system are:
Voter Id
Paper ballots
Hand counting in situ
Scrutineers appointed by the candidates must observe the counting and can challenge ballots.

We have none of your problems. Fraud us no impossible but it is much harder. Dodgy secret counting is impossible. Boxes of ballots cannot be found. Elections are highly trusted.and results come quickly actually.

You need to fix your balloting. You cannot do it with Democrat help. You need to present a scheme that has appeal to Democrat voters. Maybe you won’t succeed, certainly not everywhere. But you have to start.

5M said...

Robert Cook said...
The confused thoughts and violent actions of Trump's supporters makes nakedly clear who, all along, has been (and will continue to be) infected with Trump Derangement Syndrome!

** you're thinking past the sale. There is nothing confusing about jobs and Middle East peace.

The violence is in the non transparent election. The rest of what you said has little to no substance.

Qwinn said...

Guys. I'm here suggesting a non-violent route to take that could actually be effective. What do they do if 50 million of us simply stop going to work? Do they crash the economy as hard as COVID again just to prevent an investigation? Can anyone believe they aren't desperate to hide something then?

YoungHegelian said...

I believe that one of the main reasons that the likely suspects are hyperventilating over the attack on the Congress is because it is one of the foundational myths of the American Left that they have a monopoly on revolutionary violence. Yesterday was a brutal & terribly public reminder that that is not the case. If a group of the most politically powerful Americans, protected by what is in essence a private army, can be swarmed in broad daylight, none of them are safe. It was only by an act of self-restraint on the part of the right-wing "protestors" that a fraction of them weren't armed. Such self-restraint can not be counted on to be operative in the future.

The Right has mostly left the rioting to the Left, and the Left has become dependent on that political indulgence. The Left has also become dependent on the the self-restraint of the Right to not make use of its 300 million+ guns. Yesterday was a shot, metaphorical for now, across the bow that those days of indulgence may be coming to an end.

5M said...

When a lawyer with a lot of fame and then more fame goes b**sh*T crazy it makes me think they were doing a lot of hard drugs then stopped. Rehab just hasn't caught up with them yet.

Seems to fit more than a few lawyers and politicians.

narciso said...

Oh


https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1347318930138918930

5M said...

YoungHegelian said...
I believe that one of the main reasons that the likely suspects are hyperventilating over the attack on the Congress

My gut agrees. I think citizens are sharpening their knives tonight and just lacking a cohesive organizational structure outside of twitter and Facebook. Just sitting back and letting a Mitch Romney McConnell Sasse control outcomes is a bad choice. Continuing the mask mandate or clamping down on guns will spark a fire.

stevew said...

A bit surprising to me, but John Hinderaker at Powerline says it as well as can be said:

Enough With The Outrage



walter said...

Ken B,
Do you think the Dems/Rinos/MSM/Tech want or will remotely enable reform when their formula works for them?
They smothered or ignored Biden inc corruption and dementia/stuttering.

walter said...

Arizona resumes session Monday...

Mike of Snoqualmie said...

reader @ 1/7/21, 11:56 AM

+1.

The Democrat media always say it's "debunked", but never say how and who debunked the election worker fraud. It was mainly illegal ballot counting practices, with a little voter fraud. The Dems will say that objecting to election fraud is disenfranchising the Black vote, when in reality it's the fraud that is disenfranchising the Black vote and everyone else's vote.

walter said...

'Vanilla,
Proves all allegations of substantive voter fraud are BASELESS!

Qwinn said...

"What proves they are baseless is the lack of evidence."

Go fuck yourself, gaslighting scum.

Ken B said...

Walter
Of course the Democrat machine does not. But there are democrats who are voters not part of the machine. They need to be persuaded.

Look, if you want to give up and write off the republic feel free. Just don’t pose as a patriot. Don’t say “I have a better idea” when your idea is to give up.

Ken B said...

Old Hegelian
You might be right about that. To me it’s obvious that the folks with guns would be more fearsome, but ...

walter said...

Ken,
Nice persuasion technique with that broad, stanky brush:
"Look, if you want to give up and write off the republic feel free."

Qwinn said...

"A riot is the language of the unheard." - Martin Luther King Jr.

DarigoldVanilla said...

Say her name
Just say it!! Ashli Babbit is a domestic terrorist.

Ken B said...

Walter
I am not trying to persuade you. I know you. We have had run ins before. You are a bad faith troll. I am trying to make you look stupid for the benefit of onlookers.
By not catching that you have helped me succeed.

DarigoldVanilla said...

“Fascism is a frenzy for sexual cripples.” - Wilhelm Reich

YoungHegelian said...

@Dear Troll DarigoldVanilla,

“Fascism is a frenzy for sexual cripples.” - Wilhelm Reich

If you think Reich had any insight into the nature of Fascism, there's not a lot that can be said for your ideological acumen. What's next? You're going to diagnose us all as having misplaced orgone energy?

DarigoldVanilla said...

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while.
Guy watched prototype fascists rise to power in Germany. He might have some astute observations.
I can’t endorse the orgone nonsense though.
But hey, everybody needs a huddle.

Dr Weevil said...

It's not that 40% of the electorate thinks the election was fraudulent. The actual number is that 65-70% know the election was stolen, but 25-30 of those 65-70 are Democrats or never-Trump Republicans and independents who think stealing elections is just fine as long as you steal them from Trump. Of course, they're clever enough not to say so. The 40% who "think", i.e. know it and are willing to say so are most of the Trump voters plus a few (very few) Biden voters who know the election was stolen and are decent enough to be ashamed that it was stolen for their guy. (The other 30-35% who don't think it was stolen actually don't know or care one way or the other because they haven't been paying attention.)

Dr Weevil said...

By the way, for all those accusing Trump of trying to "overturn" the election, you're damned right he's trying to overturn it because it's upside-down! I've never kayaked, but I'm told that the first thing you learn is how to turn your kayak right-side up if it's upside-down, because they often do turn over and if you don't 'overturn' them in a minute or two, you drown.

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 213   Newer› Newest»