Althouse: At the Sunrise Café...

December 13, 2020

At the Sunrise Café...

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245 comments:

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narciso said...: The anonymous saudi who spoke to kashoggi who lacey published in 'inside the kingdom'didnt think so.; 12/14/20, 10:05 AM
Big Mike said...: "Punishments (in the UAR) may include jail time, floggings, death, fines, and deportation."

And in Iran the punishment for homosexuality includes hanging.; 12/14/20, 10:06 AM
narciso said...: So you would have kept the taliban in power, then what would you have done?; 12/14/20, 10:07 AM
Qwinn said...: Dominion’s vote totals showed 663 people voted in a district where there were only 6 eligible voters and only 3 of those 6 actually voted. Somehow, Dominion added 660 additional votes to the final tally. (Second image); 12/14/20, 10:09 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Big Mike:

Oh? So you like those al Qaeda folks killing Americans just because they’re Americans? Good to know.

Oh right, because clearly the only options were this or what Bush did. Fuck off.

Not that Obama tried very hard. And Trump’s efforts to extricate US troops were deliberately undercut by the Deep State. After the election Pentagon officials bragged about lying to Trump about troop counts so they could keep troops in Syria.

No disagreement here. Two years ago I commented on these pages, "I think Trump has some decent instincts on Afghanistan (i.e. wanting to get out) but has been far too ready to concede to "the generals" and the national security state, in general."; 12/14/20, 10:12 AM
narciso said...: Tell us what you would have done on september 12th, show your work.; 12/14/20, 10:15 AM
J. Farmer said...: @narciso:

So you would have kept the taliban in power, then what would you have done?

Covert and paramilitary operations via the SAC and special forces coupled with punitive and incapacitating strikes against Taliban forces as necessary. By removing the Taliban from power, we assumed responsibility for maintaining order within Afghanistan, establishing a new government, and battling an insurgency campaign. Bin Laden's presence in Afghanistan had always been a source of division within the Taliban, and many wanted him expelled. His hosting in Afghanistan was primarily a function of his personal relationship with Mullah Omar.; 12/14/20, 10:21 AM
narciso said...: As if that were so easy in the first place, yes there were divisions within the talibam even al queda but they still let him operate in their territory.; 12/14/20, 10:25 AM
J. Farmer said...: Tell us what you would have done on september 12th, show your work.

I'd start by recognizing that nation-building in Fallujah doesn't do much to protect us from a half dozen Arabs flying to the US from Dubai and enrolling in flight school.

I'd also recognize that Al Qaeda was not some great powerful organization but a small, loosely-affiliated group that's chief asset was Bin Laden's ability to turn his family connections and reputation from Afghanistan into a successful fundraising endeavor.

Of course, if we had my preferred immigration policy, those terrorists never would've been here in the first place. And we'd be trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives richer.; 12/14/20, 10:26 AM
narciso said...: Against the largesr attack against the us since pearl harbor you would have done some practically nothing, now denying them sanctuary in the northwest frontier that would have beem something.; 12/14/20, 10:28 AM
J. Farmer said...: As if that were so easy in the first place, yes there were divisions within the talibam even al queda but they still let him operate in their territory.

"So easy" isn't a claim I made.; 12/14/20, 10:31 AM
Narr said...: Anent the outbreak of war in 1939, I repeat, a list of grievances is not the same as a decision to declare war at a particular time. That was Hitler's call, not the generals' call, or the German peoples' call, or most especially not FDRs, Churchill's, or Stalin's (though he helped with the timing.).

Of course the Versailles settlement is an important factor, and no informed person denies it, but it did not make WWII inevitable -in 1939- or any other year. War was chosen at that time by Hitler for Hitlerian reasons.

That's the point, people, try to focus.

Narr
Versailles was just a bloody shirt to wave, not a casus belli; 12/14/20, 10:31 AM
Big Mike said...: Oh right, because clearly the only options were this or what Bush did. Fuck off.

@Farmer, you cannot assert that there is a third path without at least providing the outlines of that path and allowing others to criticize it. You keep playing those cheap rhetorical tricks but this isn’t a formal debate and I, for one, am not falling for your BS.; 12/14/20, 10:32 AM
Michael K said...: But it's still a version of the "thousands of tactical errors" argument. It doesn't address the fundamental problem of how once you've removed the Taliban from power, what will go in its place and for where will it derive legitimacy.

Not really our problem. Kick ass and leave, promising another dose if misbehavior returns. That was a better option for Iraq, as well. Bush's mortal sin was listening to the assholes who advocated "nation building." Like Bill Kristol, for example.

It seems I cannot post a comment without ticking the "Prove you're not a robot"box. That's new.; 12/14/20, 10:32 AM
narciso said...: I was just drawing him out, time was of the essence the interval in which isi operatives spirited the bulk of taliban fighters was significant.; 12/14/20, 10:33 AM
narciso said...: Of course the lesson of the previous afghan experience was dont leave a power vaccuum, thats how massoud was ultimaty toppled in 96.; 12/14/20, 10:35 AM
J. Farmer said...: Against the largesr attack against the us since pearl harbor you would have done some practically nothing, now denying them sanctuary in the northwest frontier that would have beem something.

9/11 succeeded because the terrorists were able to exploit security loopholes and because the passengers acceded to a hijacking they didn't imagine would end in a kamikaze. Not because the Taliban was in power in Kabul.; 12/14/20, 10:36 AM
Michael K said...: And in Iran the punishment for homosexuality includes hanging.

I understand that flying lessons are another option.; 12/14/20, 10:36 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Michael K:

Not really our problem. Kick ass and leave, promising another dose if misbehavior returns.

That's a completely contradictory strategy. On the one hand, we have to attack Afghanistan because it harbored terrorists. And on the other, our attack will turn Afghanistan into a failed state, which will in turn become a harbor for terrorists. And you're still left with the uncertainty of what will rise in its place. And then there is the knock on effects from massive refugee inflows.; 12/14/20, 10:43 AM
narciso said...: It was a failed state because of 13 years of soviet intervention; 12/14/20, 10:46 AM
J. Farmer said...: And in Iran the punishment for homosexuality includes hanging.

And in Saudi Arabia the punishment for homosexuality includes stoning.; 12/14/20, 10:50 AM
Achilles said...: You guys are giving Farmer a tough time.

You should be directing your ire at Bush and the neocons as well as the democrats.

They purposely got us involved in wars and then undermined those wars.

They were all in on it.

Stop defending the Iraq war. Stop defending the Afghanistan war. I was there. It was a joke. There was no purpose for our involvement there after deposing the leadership. Even deposing the leadership was questionable.

Our involvement should have been the same as our involvement with ISIS. Murder their leadership and leave. Nation building is stupid in Muslim countries. We should just be focused on weeding out as many males in those countries as possible.; 12/14/20, 10:51 AM
Achilles said...: We also need to be focusing on ourselves. We were wrong to trust the GOPe. Most of the republican party is corrupt and stupid.

Almost every war we have been in since Korea has been managed by enemies of the people of the United States.

Just waiting for Pinochet.; 12/14/20, 10:54 AM
Achilles said...: narciso said...

It was a failed state because of 13 years of soviet intervention

It was a failed state because of Islam.

Unless we were willing to destroy Islam and the roots of that culture there was no point in being in Afghanistan after killing the Taliban leadership.

It is really hard to describe just how degenerate and pathetic the Taliban was in 2010. We could have killed every single one of them in a month if we were allowed to do so.; 12/14/20, 10:57 AM
Joe Smith said...: I finally figured out who J. Farmer reminds me of...

Cliff Clavin from 'Cheers.'

Like Cliff, he knows everything about everything, whether it's true or not.; 12/14/20, 10:58 AM
Qwinn said...: COMPUTERS WERE WIPED CLEAN ON NOVEMBER 4:

DePerno told us that the report shows “internet and adjudication files were wiped clean on Nov. 4th,” adding “They destroyed election results!—They destroyed election results in a violation of state law.” He told us, “They were required to keep these records for two years after the election, and they deleted them!”

“We can’t assign motive to that, but we can speculate.”

DePerno explained that the forensic team is still working to access the deleted files, explaining, “Sometimes when they take a forensic image, it can take a while for the IT team to find deleted files.

“Sec of State Benson lied when she said it was Human error is totally false. It doesn’t matter if updates are applied. Their forensic team ran a test with updates applied, and it still showed a 68.5% error rate,” DePerno said.

In another shocking finding, DePerno’s forensic team discovered that the program allows for the county administrator to go in and select a “weighted feature.” He explained, “The way the county is set up, anyone can go in and select the weighted feature. They actually had the password taped to the top of the machines!” he said. “All you need is a password to get into the machine. They have no security protocol.” DePerno added that he believes these machines were left open to hacking “by design, so they could blame anything that happens on ‘human error.'”; 12/14/20, 10:59 AM
narciso said...: Thats probably true of most countries except maybe morocco, but morocco wasnt a base of operations although some of their citizens have been busy in spain france et al; 12/14/20, 11:00 AM
Michael K said...: our attack will turn Afghanistan into a failed state, which will in turn become a harbor for terrorists. And you're still left with the uncertainty of what will rise in its place. And then there is the knock on effects from massive refugee inflows.

Come on. Buchanan's foreign policy has some sense to it but try to remember a few things.

Afghanistan was a"failed state" when Alexander the Great invaded.

Where are the refugees going to go ? Iran ?

My policy after knocking them around for hosting Osama would have been to buy the annual poppy crop. It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper than what we did.

Why I thought we should get out 9 years ago.; 12/14/20, 11:20 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Joe Smith:

I finally figured out who J. Farmer reminds me of...

Well there's a relief.

Like Cliff, he knows everything about everything, whether it's true or not.

Yawn. That's old snark. I don't mind you being a prick but at least entertain me in the process.

Oh, and you forgot to include the untrue thing that I said.

p.s. But I do take your point. I'll strive henceforth to preface every political opinion of mine with the utmost diffidence.; 12/14/20, 11:54 AM
J. Farmer said...: @Michael K:

My policy after knocking them around for hosting Osama would have been to buy the annual poppy crop. It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper than what we did.

That's a creative solution I could get behind.

Afghanistan was a"failed state" when Alexander the Great invaded.

It was less so in September 2001 when the Taliban controlled about 75% of the territory. Luckily, after 20 years of American intervention, the Kabul government now controls less than a third of the district, the Taliban about a fifth of the districts, and the other 50% is contested between the two.

Where are the refugees going to go ? Iran ?

Waziristan.; 12/14/20, 12:01 PM
Big Mike said...: 9/11 succeeded because the terrorists were able to exploit security loopholes and because the passengers acceded to a hijacking they didn't imagine would end in a kamikaze. Not because the Taliban was in power in Kabul.

@Farmer, not exactly correct. The Taliban provided al Qaeda with a safe haven where they could train fighters and plan attacks — including the 9/11 attack.; 12/14/20, 12:02 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Big Mike:

@Farmer, not exactly correct. The Taliban provided al Qaeda with a safe haven where they could train fighters and plan attacks — including the 9/11 attack.

I understand, but it wasn't the planning I was referring to; it was the execution. Also, consider the number of attacks attributed to Al Qaeda following their ouster from Afghanistan and while being intensely monitored by US intelligence.; 12/14/20, 12:49 PM
Joe Smith said...: "Yawn. That's old snark. I don't mind you being a prick but at least entertain me in the process."

I'm not here to entertain you...but you are right about being a prick.; 12/14/20, 1:00 PM
mockturtle said...: Not really our problem. Kick ass and leave, promising another dose if misbehavior returns. That was a better option for Iraq, as well. Bush's mortal sin was listening to the assholes who advocated "nation building." Like Bill Kristol, for example.

I like your style, Michael K. :-) But we know that a good part of the 'nation building' was to line the pockets of contractors like Halliburton. What good is a war if you can't make your friends rich in the process?/ sarc of course; 12/14/20, 1:47 PM
mockturtle said...: And IMHO we'd have been better off leaving both Saddam Hussein and Muammar Khadaffi in power. Toppling governments should not be part of our agenda. It never seems to work as well as expected.; 12/14/20, 1:49 PM
Rusty said...: As per Doc. Afghanistan has always been a failed state. The sole purpose of any intervention would be to remind the inhabitants to stay in their own space and not branch out then leave. That being said. Our presence dis draw a lot of ISIS and Taliban types from other countries where they could more easily be killed. As long as the local villain's stay local, who cares.; 12/14/20, 2:27 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Joe Smith:

I'm not here to entertain you...but you are right about being a prick.

I'll decide what purpose you serve me.; 12/14/20, 3:58 PM
J. Farmer said...: I like your style, Michael K. :-)

It's certainly popular among a certain segment of the population. It's the whole Dirty Harry kick ass and take names later, 'carpet bomb" Syria, put a boot in your ass courtesy of the red, white, and blue pseudo-macho bravado bullshit.

The sole purpose of any intervention would be to remind the inhabitants to stay in their own space and not branch out then leave. That being said. Our presence dis draw a lot of ISIS and Taliban types from other countries where they could more easily be killed. As long as the local villain's stay local, who cares.

The reason the Taliban are fighting us is because we're attacking them. They're fighting us because we're there. Bin Laden's presence in Afghanistan was the decision of a single man. Senior members of the Taliban protested his presence for the precise reason that it would invite hostility from the US. In fact, it was quite possible in the late 90s that a sufficient degree of pressure would've persuaded Omar to expel him. Instead, in 1998, Clinton stupidly decided to lob a few dozen Tomahawk missiles aimed at "training camps." The missile attack made it impossible for Omar to hand over bin Laden since doing so would be seen as a humiliation and obvious submission to a great power. Standing up to great powers is how these guys get their reputations.

There was a lot of room for diplomatic maneuvering with the Taliban, but in typical American fashion we opted for the sledgehammer approach. Do what we say, or we'll sanction you, we'll bomb you, we'll assassinate you, we'll overthrow you. Maximum pressure. All options are on the table. Meanwhile, the critique from the right is that America has gone soft, wussed out, and is too cautious about death and destruction. That's sick. The US has been continuously engaged in global warfare for 30 years. We've unleashed death and destruction on millions of innocent people. We've spent the last few years helping Saudi Arabia try to bomb the Yemenis into starvation.

America's problem is not an aversion to aggression and violence but an almost pathological dependence on it as a regular part of statecraft.; 12/14/20, 4:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Mock Turtle.

The sinew that ties all the military men of history together is best explained in the 'Bhagavad-Gita...

as it is'.; 12/14/20, 6:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Dr K. 'Kick ass and leave, promising another dose if misbehavior returns.'

It was that simple. It was just that. It was just that.; 12/14/20, 6:17 PM
Anonymous said...: J Farmer 'And on the other, our attack will turn Afghanistan into a failed state'

Geez, Afghanistan is not a State. Those M'fers whisper to all who would pacify them. Come closer. Come a little closer. They're gonna mess you up. Have you ever met them? They don't play. Yeah, give them a pallet of cash.

You ain't gettin' nuthin' from Afghanis. Those men are free. You can't buy them. They'll take your money though. Those men are free.

Those men are free, just not the way you define 'free'.; 12/14/20, 6:35 PM
Narr said...: Afghanistan is where empires die, and statehood is not really a meaningful concept.

But that goes against America's image as world policeman and crusader, and our all-American ideology that people everywhere sort themselves into civilized competitive teams and interest groups with primary loyalty to an abstract state after we show them the way.

That by itself condemns the USAican educational system, but that's what happens when History is replaced by Social Studies taught by ignoramuses from ed schools.

In 1945, the task of the victorious Allies (especially the Superpower) was to locate, rescue or rehabilitate, supervise and encourage the remnants of civil society in what had been the best educated and technically-- and therefore politically and socially-- advanced
countries of Europe and East Asia, respectively.

That we succeeded so brilliantly should make us proud.

So who and where are the equivalent people in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and whatever other shithole we decide we must invade next?

Narr
That we have no answers is dangerous to everyone; 12/14/20, 9:06 PM
Anonymous said...: Old men like to talk about things past. Are you still breathing? Arm up. There will be new things to talk about. Ain't no more fearsome animal than an old man with nothing to lose.
Make History. This thing comin' up is going to be glorious. Grab some. Don't face God with mealy mouthed lukewarm sentiments. Hot or Cold, brother.; 12/14/20, 9:19 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Narr:

Afghanistan is where empires die, and statehood is not really a meaningful concept.

I'll concede "failed state" is a murky term, but I disagree that "statehood is not really a meaningful concept." What is it that the Taliban and Kabul government are fighting over? Afghanistan has internationally recognized borders. What represents Afghanistan abroad and regulates the movement of people and goods between those borders? The state.

So who and where are the equivalent people in Iraq, and Afghanistan, and whatever other shithole we decide we must invade next?

A crucial distinction is that what ended in 1945 started first with a Japanese invasion of China and second a German invasion of Poland. in Afghanistan and Iraq, we have been the aggressors.; 12/14/20, 10:25 PM
J. Farmer said...: @Hercules, not that one though:

Geez, Afghanistan is not a State. Those M'fers whisper to all who would pacify them. Come closer. Come a little closer. They're gonna mess you up. Have you ever met them?

I have not. But I have opposed the war on Afghanistan since 2001.; 12/14/20, 10:32 PM