August 29, 2020

"Looting... provides people with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure and helps them imagine a world that could be."

"And I think that's a part of it that doesn't really get talked about—that riots and looting are experienced as sort of joyous and liberatory."

Says Vicky Osterweil, author of "In Defense of Looting," interviewed at NPR.
[A] trope that's very common is that looters and rioters are not part of the protest, and they're not part of the movement. That has to do with the history of protesters trying to appear respectable and politically legible as a movement, and not wanting to be too frightening or threatening. Another one is that looters are just acting as consumers: Why are they taking flat screen TVs instead of rice and beans?... All these tropes come down to claiming that the rioters and the looters don't know what they're doing. They're acting, you know, in a disorganized way, maybe an 'animalistic' way. But the history of the movement for liberation in America is full of looters and rioters. They've always been a part of our movement....  
I don't know if other people in "the movement" are happy to see that idea spoken aloud. I've been hearing that there are 2 groups of people — the peaceful protesters and these mysterious other people, who, I've noted, the journalists don't seem to care to identify and investigate. Osterweil is saying these are not 2 different groups. It's one movement, and it's been going on for a long time.

Osterweil says it's a Republican/right-wing myth "that the small business owner must be respected, that the small business owner creates jobs and is part of the community." She conceptualizes the small businesses as agents of oppression within the community. They're not innocent victims, unfairly targeted. So don't worry about them. In fact, as Osterweil tells it, the looting is a cogent argument — an attack on "the idea of property... the idea that in order for someone to have a roof over their head or have a meal ticket, they have to work for a boss, in order to buy things that people just like them somewhere else in the world had to make under the same conditions." In this view, it's "unjust" to have to work to make money to buy the things you need and want, because "the world is organized that way, obviously, is for the profit of the people who own the stores and the factories." Looters "get to the heart of that property relation, and demonstrate that without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free.... Looting strikes at the heart of property, of whiteness and of the police."

That seems to present looting as street theater with a message. It makes an argument. A terrible argument. We've heard that argument in words many times over the years, and most Americans reject it. We want to work and build wealth and enjoy our lives and we want the great mutual benefits of hard work and wealth. Osterweil's looting is a switch from making the argument against property in words and to speak with actions — the destruction of property. But that doesn't make the argument more convincing! It's a nasty tantrum thrown because you can't convince people with your ideas. Ironically, fortunately, it makes the argument for the other side.

216 comments:

1 – 200 of 216   Newer›   Newest»
Kai Akker said...

"Liberatory".... "politically legible"...... Nah. Too early for someone who mangles words like that.

Ambrose said...

Osterweil"s "In Defense of Looting" is available for free I assume?

rhhardin said...

Wealth comes from disagreement over value. The stuff is worth less to the shop owner than he gets for it, and the stuff more to the consumer than he gets for it. The difference gets added to the national wealth.

The former is called profit, and the latter is called consumer surplus. They're both additions to wealth.

rhhardin said...

The reason that you can have profit and consumer surplus is that no capital is wasted on self-defense. The state takes care of defense costs. Of course it's not doing that now, so you'll eventually get a subsistence economy. Make your won pencils, if you need a pencil.

The Bergall said...

What gibberish...........

donald said...

Looters should be shot onsite. Period. The end.

Darrell said...

The Left is bat-shit crazy. Their oppression will stop when their hearts do.

mezzrow said...

Apparently, you're just another zombie liberal, Althouse. This was sufficiently warped that I had to look up the author. Found this from 2017:

https://thenewinquiry.com/liberalism-is-dead/

here's the last paragraph:

It is a strange time, when fascists see the future more clearly than the revolutionary left. But the left has so long imagined its route to power comes through capturing the nation-state that it can’t see that such a method doesn’t even work for capital anymore. To crush fascism, we’ll have to dramatically reorient our understanding of the future. Revolutionaries have to get over their fetishization of both nation and state, and fast, if they hope to truly destroy this world, let alone having a shot at building a new one.

When you read the NYT, run this last sentence through your head simultaneously.

stlcdr said...

Now do murder - a method of self expression.

Paul Bahlin said...

Extending that argument leads to what? You'd have a society with no goods to loot. Hunter gatherers! Progress or idiocy?

Humperdink said...

In defense of looting.

Quoting Miss Vicky: "They're acting, you know, in a disorganized way, maybe an 'animalistic' way."

> In defense of violence.
> In defense of arson.
> In defense of murder.

Slope, meet slippery.


Lucid-Ideas said...

How many times do we have to talk about this hamster before people start to get the message. There is nothing that they won't justify. What? Too outrageous? Not a chance. Every time these people run into a wall, they will attempt to justify the wall.

The Overton window and what's beyond it is but a truth 'undiscovered'. It is precisely this phenomenon, precisely this article, that has led me to believe that it will not be long before these people are justifying pedophilia and incest. Screencap this. Watch. Pure evil.

mezzrow said...

Of course that should be NPR instead of the NYT. Revolution will find its voice on the ray-dee-oh as well as in the newspaper. My mistake - I assumed that most any quote at this time of the morning would be the Times on this forum.

OT - Does anyone think of it as the "old grey lady" anymore?

wendybar said...

Temper tantrums never go over well.

Lucid-Ideas said...

The hamster spins around and around and around because the hamster cannot be wrong. That's what's really going on here. They know what's wrong. We know what's wrong. We know they know it's wrong. But they can't be wrong. So they will go further and further down the hole, run around in more circles trying to figure out how to win the unwinnable and defend the indefensible.

It's why eventually it leads to violence. There comes a point in some human interactions where the only solution and the final solution is to smack someone.

gspencer said...

I guess looting is fun.

Providing you can get by that "Thou shall not steal" thing.

CStanley said...

I wonder how long it will take before the looters notice that free stuff isn’t reappearing in the stores they’ve previously ransacked.

Rusty said...

I am soooo god damn tired of stupid people acting like they know something.

Lucid-Ideas said...

Note something else about the editorial. It's all about feeling. It 'feels' good. It's cathartic, so that's all that should matter.

Although you see it in both men and women, in my experience you definitely see this hamster spinning more in women. If it feels good, turn those justification knobs 5o 11.

donald said...

She is very unattractive as if anybody couldn’t guess.

policraticus said...

This is an argument? This person is a lunatic. The only reason we have things for looters to loot is that we have built a society that does not loot. I don't think she has given one single thought about where her argument leads. She's never read Hobbes. Who are we kidding? She probably couldn't grasp Hobbes. The war of all against all doesn't end well for 99.9% of people. If she thinks our capitalist system has created inequity, wait until she finds out how equitable anarchy will be.

Masscon said...

I read the interview and all I can say is it is a call for a violent revolution. If that's what they want so badly then I guess it's what they will get. Unsurprisingly, the NPR interviewer seems to approve.

Wilbur said...

When I read this, it makes me angry.

Not at Vicki Ostweiler. She's just a foolish, immature, sheltered and ignorant person. She doesn't know any better.

I get angry at our good friends at NPR, who believe it's appropriate to give Vicki a soapbox to spew this nonsense. Their day is coming.

Stan Smith said...

I can’t even. Not only did someone publish this bilge, she’s considered worthy of interviewing on NPR. The participation trophy generation; simply everything MUST be without cost or effort.

Bart Hall said...

In many ways this line of "reasoning" reflects rather well what we saw in the two parties' conventions.

a) self-pity and victimhood

b) productivity and overcoming

A blames it condition on B. Pretty clear choice. I voted for Bill Clinton twice. There is no possible way I would vote for the horror-show that Democrats have become in the last 15 years or so.

Roy Jacobsen said...

Talk to her again when the looters show up at her home.

Marcus Bressler said...

Stranger and stranger.

THEOLDMAN

SteveB said...

And shooting looters provides cops with target practice. See...win-win.

The Tangerine Tornado said...

You must have a nice comfortable life to sit back and write about riots and looting as "joyous and liberatory" as you defend the practice. The practice of taking/destroying the property of others.

How would this article play out if Vicky Osterweil had such understanding of the victim. I'm certain Vicky Osterweil has property. Personal property. Very personal property. Food, clothing, and shelter. The laptop used to write a joyous opinion upon. A wedding ring. The contents of a purse. A bed to sleep in. A car to visit dear old mother. Family heirlooms. Pictures of departed loved ones. Every word you've ever written for NPR.

Now imagine ALL OF IT GONE, Vicky Osterweil. Some stolen never to be seen again, for which no one will be punished. The rest of it burnt to a cinder by someones who will also never be punished for it. Your written work erased from every record. That would be joyous yes? A giant empty charcoal scented space where your life's work, everything you've built used to be. Joyous and liberatory. I feel better already.

Meade said...

Rape is the ultimate looting.

hawkeyedjb said...

"without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free...."

Without the police, we know very well that the requisitioning of "free" stuff isn't going to stop with the stores. Hence the stockpiling of guns and ammo over the last few months.

Dad Bones said...

And I think that's a part of it that doesn't really get talked about—that riots and looting are experienced as sort of joyous and liberatory.

That may be true but shooting a looter or rioter may provide the same feeling. Right now the looters outnumber the shooters more than a hundred to one but that could change considering all the guns being sold lately.

hawkeyedjb said...

"Looting strikes at the heart of property, of whiteness..."

So, whiteness is making stuff and blackness is taking stuff. There's a charitable view of your fellow humans.

Patrick said...

Defund NPR. Why the hell are my tax dollars still going to this garbage?
Also, these people always try to justify this as some sort of American tradition. The Boston Tea Party was much different. They went after the tea and called it a day. They didn't destroy Boston Harbor.

h said...

Is there anything she says about looting that we couldn't also say about rape?

Ann Althouse said...

@mezzrow

Did you read the post? Your comment makes no sense except as a statement that you did not read my post. Yet you have the nerve to insult me. You're the zombie.

Fritz said...

NPR delenda est.

Thistlerose said...

If people loot flat screen TV's often enough they will stop showing up in the stores for people to loot. No one is going to work hard to make the TV, transport the tv to the store and then house it in a store just so someone who is angry can take it for free. It just doesn't work that way. The fastest way to reduce a cities standard of living is to have it become a high crime city. Looters are not wealth creators.

Bruce Hayden said...

Brain dead liberal. Burn out the big businesses, and you won’t have big businesses in the area. Too expensive. Which means no large grocery stores, big box stores, etc. which means, for many, buying their food at smaller stores for higher prices, and with much less selection. Burn those small businesses out, and you have a food desert. Making things worse, Taxis, Uber, Amazon, etc quit serving the area because of the danger. So what’s left? Public transportation? Of course the Marxist radicals, spouting this nonsense, get to go back home to their parents’ basements, which areas still have supermarkets and big box stores, after burning down the businesses that used to serve the minority communities they think that they are saving by essentially destroying them.

Heartless Aztec said...

Dumbassery writ large, printed up, published and then interviewed by NPR.

Jon Burack said...

First, Mezzrow, oops, I see Ann Althouse answered you effectively, so I do not have to.

I come to this site for ideas and entertainment, not to get into a fantasied "relationship," either friendly or hostile with its host. I really cannot figure out what moves people to imagine they have such a relationship or why they would waste their time on it.

Jon Burack said...

As to this post, a few days back we saw from Dave Blaska a video clip of a woman marching up State Street ridiculing the shops for putting plywood back up to protect their mere "things" as she put it.

https://davidblaska.com/2020/08/25/blm-to-state-street-diners-f-bomb-your-food/

The key word in Osterweil's piece is "imagine." These people are narcissists. Blacks have nothing to do with it as far as they are concerned.

Paul Snively said...

It’s also a good way to get shot.

Meade said...

Uncivility bullshit.

Wince said...

Althouse said...
Osterweil is saying these are not 2 different groups. It's one movement, and it's been going on for a long time.

Kamala Harris has this revealing verbal tic, where she simply repeats herself over and over when she cannot construct a logical argument.

One example was her "It was a debate!" non-explanation of her maligning of Joe Biden's character.

Same when she said "it's a movement" and "they're not going to stop, they're not going to stop" over and over again.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Slightly off the topic of looting but still on topic. People are going to soon very soon get tired of all the blather and bullshit and cut to the chase. The looting and rioting will not be tolerated. If the government doesn't stop it we will.

Below is a longer version of the Irish Beware the anger of a patient man

THE WRATH OF THE AWAKENED SAXON
by Rudyard Kipling



It was not part of their blood,
It came to them very late,
With long arrears to make good,
When the Saxon began to hate.

They were not easily moved,
They were icy -- willing to wait
Till every count should be proved,
Ere the Saxon began to hate.

Their voices were even and low.
Their eyes were level and straight.
There was neither sign nor show
When the Saxon began to hate.

It was not preached to the crowd.
It was not taught by the state.
No man spoke it aloud
When the Saxon began to hate.

It was not suddenly bred.
It will not swiftly abate.
Through the chilled years ahead,
When Time shall count from the date
That the Saxon began to hate.


Hopefully not, but if this chaos isn't quelled that date will be sooner than we expect.


mockturtle said...

Tearing down the straw man of defense of the indefensible. Nicely played. /s

Laslo Spatula said...

Daddy Issues Girl thinks about The Big World; still angry at Daddy.

I am Laslo.

Meade said...

"[Raping children]... provides people with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure and helps them imagine a world that could be.
And I think that's a part of it that doesn't really get talked about—that riots and [child raping] are experienced as sort of joyous and liberatory."

West Texas Intermediate Crude said...

Good that it was on NPR.
A non-wero number of their listeners/supporters rely on capitalism to feed their families.
Some of them may get red pilled.

Kate said...

"Because I want it" is a child's argument.

mockturtle said...

Well played, Meade.

Kevin said...

Rape is the ultimate looting.

Equality demands free love.

Freder Frederson said...

Looters should be shot onsite. Period. The end.

How is this attitude less obscene than Osterweil's? You are advocating granting the police the power of judge jury and summary executioner for theft and property damage. Last I checked, the death sentence did not apply to burglary.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Meade gets it.

Looting and rape are the actions of sadistic cowards who want to exert power and control for the sheer thrill of it. There is no rational excuse other than they 'can' force their will on what they perceive as powerless victims.

Joyous and liberatory all about their feelings and dehumanizing their victims. The victims deserve it because the looters' and rapists' are the only ones who have feelings or who matter.

Victims are just objects.

mezzrow said...

Did you read the post? Your comment makes no sense except as a statement that you did not read my post. Yet you have the nerve to insult me. You're the zombie.

Apologies, professor. There's an implied sarc tag here, which I will apply in future. I was channelling the linked thing and you have no reason to understand what the hell I was posting. Commenting gets that way sometimes.

I read your link and it was so wacky I found the other piece, but I went and did something else (took my 40 minute walk), and by the time I posted I'm so damned senile I forgot the source. Honest.

No insult intended. That's not how I roll. Hoped you'd know that by now, but there's a lot of traffic here.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Looters should be shot onsite. Period. The end.

Freder Frederson said... How is this attitude less obscene than Osterweil's? You are advocating granting the police the power of judge jury and summary executioner for theft and property damage.

Who said anything about the police?

HMuns said...

How Leftist reconcile these criminal acts shows how truly insane they are. Liberalism is a mental disorder.

William said...

Is it possible that some forms of stupidity are so severe that they qualify as mental illness? I'm not sure whether her arguments are stupid or crazy or some mixture of the two.....I have a hard time finding things I want when I'm out shopping. Looting is an inefficient form of shopping. I wear size 13, 4E shoes. I'd never be able to loot a pair of proper fitting shoes.....How liberating is it to acquire something you don't want and can't use by an act of theft?

RMc said...

Slope, meet slippery.

My wife likes to say, "Not all slopes are slippery", to which I reply, "Yeah, but if you're standing on a slope, you'd better be wearing good shoes!".

Jamie said...

I know a guy... He tells this story on himself. He was a young teen, and clearly the smartest person in his family. And his mom had spent his entire life making sure he knew that. So one day he invited a girl over to play a game of chess - he had to teach her the rules, so he surmised that he had the game locked up.

Except she won. And when she made the winning move and said hesitantly, "I think this is checkmate?" he picked up the (thankfully cardboard) chessboard and broke it over her head.

He tells this story laughing.

Wilbur said...

Jon Burack said...
"I come to this site for ideas and entertainment, not to get into a fantasied "relationship," either friendly or hostile with its host. I really cannot figure out what moves people to imagine they have such a relationship or why they would waste their time on it."

This.

Dagwood said...

Looks like Vicky used to be a Victor, or maybe a Vance.

jaydub said...

There are basically four requirements for a free society: property rights, personal freedom, personal security and defended borders. It is no coincidence these requirements are simultaneously under assault from the left because they are anathema to Marxism. There is nothing mindless about destroying commercial property, just like there is nothing mindless about the cancel culture, open borders or defunding the police. It's all focused on eliminating freedom, property rights, personal security and defined borders in our free society so as to facilitate the imposition of Marxism in the USA. BLM is just a vehicle for that, not an end in itself, which is why you see so many young, entitled, white college students in the streets trying to upend society. I don't believe this ends in anything short of the freedom tribe killing the Marxist tribe, or vice versa. I'm preparing to ensure the vice versa doesn't succeed. What are you doing?

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

"Looting... provides people with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure and helps them imagine a world that could be."

Does that mean looting is therapeutic, a good thing to be encouraged? Or is looting detached from reality, and therefore to be discouraged?

I shall read the article to be enlightened.

On second thought, this is a good time to get that messy sock drawer sorted.

Meade said...

Plagiarizing provides Joe Biden with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure and helps him imagine a world that could be.

For Joe, plagiarism is experienced as sort of joyous and liberatory.

Freder Frederson said...

Who said anything about the police?

So now you are advocating anarchy and vigilantism. Again, the cure is worse than the disease.

Jamie said...

a woman marching up State Street ridiculing the shops for putting plywood back up to protect their mere "things" as she put it.

So. We are all supposed to get very upset and feel existentially guilty because average white household wealth outstrips average black household wealth dramatically. Yet people's property is unimportant.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

"Looting... provides people with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure and helps them imagine a world that could be."

Beneficial to both Looter and Lootee?

Kevin said...

The Dude: Black Lives Matter Treats Objects Like Women!

Rory said...

"Is it possible that some forms of stupidity are so severe that they qualify as mental illness? I'm not sure whether her arguments are stupid or crazy or some mixture of the two....."

Jacob Bronowski wrote: "...[W]hat every strong intellect wants to be, is a guardian of integrity." Weak intellects try to undermine integrity. The more preposterous the notion they justify, the more pleased they are with themselves.

Meade said...

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, "But Meade, you yourself just plagiarized and repurposed that excerpt from Vicky Osterweil's new book." You're right and I feel so, sort of, joyous and liberatory!

donald said...

Exactly DBQ.

“Obscene”. Lol boy.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Who said anything about the police?

Freder So now you are advocating anarchy and vigilantism. Again, the cure is worse than the disease.

Nah. I'm just advocating the tried and true practice of fighting wildfires. Set a backfire. Fighting fire WITH fire. Burn some trees but save the forest.

donald said...

Come to my house and try to take my stuff Freder. Mebbe terrorize my girlfriend and neighbors while you’re at it. Be sure to bring your comrades. Please.

mezzrow said...

Vicky's been fighting for justice worldwide for at least a decade.

We have to stop fetishizing the nation state.

It is a measure of the toxicity of this time that I have been driven to dox this individual out in a sense, but this just dropped into my lap after 90 seconds on the internet and a little more searching. Not proud of myself here, but Vicki has a need to be a thought leader. I'm opposed to those thoughts.

Fire with fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4t-OehvtZk

D.D. Driver said...

So, her publishers cool if we just upload her book to the internet and give it a way for free, right?

That would feel super liberatory.

StoughtonSconnie said...

This is Underpants Gnomes-level logic.
1. No police
2. ?
3. Free Stuff!

Big Mike said...

The “world that could be” apparently has no furniture stores, no grocery stores, no restaurants except the ones so pricey they can afford their own armed security, no mom&pop stores of any kind.

I don’t wish to live there.

Fernandinande said...

It sounds like a pretentious and dopier rewrite of Hoffman's "Steal This Book".

Freder Frederson said...

Burn some trees but save the forest.

Now who is treating people as objects?

Ann Althouse said...

@mezzrow

I will accept your apology when you state clearly that you had not read and understood what I wrote. Your "implied sarcasm" excuse is nonsense as relates to the insult to me: "Apparently, you're just another zombie liberal, Althouse." Your idea that in the future you will use sarcasm tags is a way to say that I didn't get it, which is to say that you were not insulting me. I believe you insulted me because you didn't read the post, not that it wasn't an insult because it was sarcasm and I didn't understand that! You have a lot of nerve coming here and insulting me and then not giving a proper apology when I take the time to respond to you personally. That is not acceptable. And saying I didn't understand the sarcasm is pulling a second insult out of your ass. Ridiculous

Ann Althouse said...

By the way, sarcasm is such an asinine approach to humor that it's a lame excuse even when it is true. And if your sarcasm is so bad it needs tags, just stop. Ask yourself how you can write something worth reading.

Browndog said...

But that doesn't make the argument more convincing! It's a nasty tantrum thrown because you can't convince people with your ideas. Ironically, fortunately, it makes the argument for the other side.

Waaaay to many people are still stuck on the notion that these people are trying to convince you of something.

You start at a place of merit, then weigh the evidence to see if it holds up, instead of weighing the evidence first, then judging the merit.

Quit giving them automatic legitimacy.

They are not trying to convince you of anything. They are trying, with much success, to dominate and punish you-

enslave you.

chuck said...

If pillage is making a comeback, can rape be far behind? Modern life has so tempered the traditional pleasures that young people are forced to find them in BLM and Antifa, profoundly conservative organizations seeking to revive what once was.

William said...

At the end of a long life Isaiah Berlin, commenting on the tyrannies he had witnessed, observed that they all seemed to start by messing with property rights. Property rights are human rights. The left is always claiming that decent housing and healthcare are human rights. Why are they so reluctant to admit that property rights are human rights.

Freder Frederson said...

Come to my house and try to take my stuff Freder.

Apparently, you are under the mistaken opinion that because I am against shooting looters simply for damaging property and theft that I am advocating looting and property damage.

Michael said...

. She dismisses as right wing myths Everything from the effectiveness of nonviolence in the civil rights movement to the demonstrable fact that small business owners hire workers and contribute to the local economy and community well being. She concludes by giving the game away by saying “we believe” indicating she is supportive of and a theoretician for the looters. Evidence not involved in her positions.

Rory said...

"Looks like Vicky used to be a Victor, or maybe a Vance."

Uh, "Willie." Seriously.

Rob said...

I am in total disbelief. Vicky Osterweil Isn’t on a faculty somewhere?

mtrobertslaw said...

Osterweil's "partner" is Sophie Lewis, whose book calls for "abolishing the family." The two seem to be in a good-natured competition to see who can contribute the most to the complete destruction of society.

CWJ said...

"We've heard that argument in words many times over the years, and most Americans reject it."

When you say "most" rather than "nearly all," you've already lost the argument.

CWJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
donald said...

Apparently, you are under the mistaken opinion that because I am against shooting looters simply for damaging property and theft that I am advocating looting and property damage.


You can say no here, but you’re defending it. I have no doubt that you don’t have the balls to do it yourself.

donald said...

And yes, that’s exactly what you are doing.

Oso Negro said...

If Vicky Osterweil was better looking, she could be concerned that someone might not rape her, but simply "loot her booty", but only in an affirming, liberatory way.

William said...

I'm more into tragic irony than post modern irony. The fact that my tragic irony is sometimes mistaken for sarcasm is part of the tragic irony of my futile life.....The harshness of the world can only be relieved by the fugitive joys of looting and making sarcastic jokes. The futile bleeds into the fatuous.

Mike Sylwester said...

I will accept your apology when you state clearly that you had not read and understood what I wrote. ... By the way, sarcasm is such an asinine approach to humor that it's a lame excuse even when it is true.

Calm down!

Michael said...

Althouse
I do not find the word “loot” in my hard copy circa 1980 of the OED. Odd. Is it in the online version?

mikee said...

After Katrina hit New Orleans, a common sight was a piece of plywood with a spray painted message on it - YOU LOOT, WE SHOOT. I have never seen a study or report on the rates of looting in places with such signage versus places following other policies. But I note that there are lots of plywood pieces placed over store windows nationwide right now, each of which is capable of carrying a similar message to the looters.

After a while, someone could write an intellectually challenging article or book about the liberating feeling one gets from stopping the looting of one's home, store, or city. I bet it would be a better read than the full tripe exhibited by the author of the support for looting.

mezzrow said...

@mezzrow

I will accept your apology when you state clearly that you had not read and understood what I wrote. Your "implied sarcasm" excuse is nonsense as relates to the insult to me: "Apparently, you're just another zombie liberal, Althouse." Your idea that in the future you will use sarcasm tags is a way to say that I didn't get it, which is to say that you were not insulting me. I believe you insulted me because you didn't read the post, not that it wasn't an insult because it was sarcasm and I didn't understand that! You have a lot of nerve coming here and insulting me and then not giving a proper apology when I take the time to respond to you personally. That is not acceptable. And saying I didn't understand the sarcasm is pulling a second insult out of your ass. Ridiculous


Obviously I didn't understand what you wrote and apparently this is still true. I scanned the link at NPR, and didn't read deeply, to be sure. I looked up our subject. I scanned the link I posted. I checked the weather, looks like rain later this AM. I took a walk, thinking about all of this. Somewhere along the way I dropped in the post that contains my regretted insult. The key here is that I am becoming too familiar, I suspect, and am starting to treat you with the kind of insolence with which I treat those I hang around on a regular basis. Familiarity breeds contempt, or so I have heard.

Sorry if I caused any discomfort. I am a bit taken aback at how much this seems to matter, and take it as a peculiar sort of complement. Clearly I have hit a hot button. Of course I can do better. The "zombie liberal" remark was a quote from my link, was erroneous and kinda stupid.

Shake hands? Bump elbows?

Freder Frederson said...

You can say no here, but you’re defending it. I have no doubt that you don’t have the balls to do it yourself.

So in your world, the fact that I wouldn't break into your house and steal your tv has nothing to do with a moral compass, but is simply cowardice. So why don't you admire the looters, as apparently they have more balls than me and you (since I assume you don't have the balls to loot either)?

Birkel said...

She is honest to admit it is all of a piece.

She is dishonest about the goals: power for Leftist Collectivists.
And control of others with that power, if ever won.

2A

Big Mike said...

Now who is treating people as objects?

@Freder, now who is treating rioters and looters as people?

Amadeus 48 said...

We used to shoot looters, particularly after a catastrophe. We don’t do that anymore. How is it working? More looting and fewer dead looters.
I’d say the returns are mixed.

If we deployed the national guard to assist the police, and if we arrested and held looters until they posted a meaningful bond, we probably would get better results, particularly if there are serious efforts to prosecute and convict those apprehended.

The hack politicians who run our major cities have no appetite to solve the problem.

They should all look at Detroit, the richest city in the USA in the 1950s. There are lessons there.

donald said...

Yes you’re a coward, and I’m not a common criminal. I also don’t support common criminals. You do. You’re a pussy.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

" You can say no here, but you’re defending it. [lootinh] I have no doubt that you don’t have the balls to do it yourself."

Freder Frederson said... So in your world, the fact that I wouldn't break into your house and steal your tv has nothing to do with a moral compass, but is simply cowardice.

The fact that you continue to support looting, refuse to denounce looting, is worse that cowardice.

You are tacitly encouraging and allowing the crimes to happen. Just as if you knew that your neighbor was raping small children, but you ignore it. Ignore it because it isn't happening to YOU or your children. Ignore it because it isn't any of YOUR business. Nothing to see here...move along.

When you know this is happening and you just turn your face away from it....like in Nazi Germany....turning away from the death camps....when you could have taken some steps to stop it...or at least...say NO!!...This is wrong!!........YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE ACTS just as if you committed them yourself.

Worse than being a coward.

mccullough said...

This is the intellectual pollution that pervades academic thinking nowadays.

Althouse is right. This is so dumb that it refutes itself to the point that it supports the opposite position.

Small business provides half the jobs in the country. Not to mention goods and services in communities.

Mid-Life Lawyer said...

Coming soon - "In Defense of the Nonconsensual Digital Penetration of Baby Mamas"

Sydney said...

Looters "get to the heart of that property relation, and demonstrate that without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free

Well, that explains why all the martyrs for their cause have criminal records. And why the rioters we know about all have criminal records, too. The movement's aim is free criminals from the consequences of their actions and let them run amok in society. Today it's "Raise your fist to show you're with us." Tomorrow it's "Give me your money."

hawkeyedjb said...

Freder "So now you are advocating anarchy and vigilantism. Again, the cure is worse than the disease."

Non. C'est pour encourager les autres.

Freder Frederson said...

The fact that you continue to support looting, refuse to denounce looting, is worse that cowardice.

Can you please point out any statement made by me in support of looting?

To claim that merely supporting the constitutional right for criminals to be judged by a jury of their peers is supporting looting is a ridiculous misinterpretation of anything I have written.

Ann Althouse said...

"I do not find the word “loot” in my hard copy circa 1980 of the OED. Odd. Is it in the online version?"

Of course, "loot" is in the OED.

"Etymology: < Hindi lūt, according to some scholars representing Sanskrit lōtra, lōptra booty, spoil, < the root lup = rup to break; others refer it to Sanskrit lunt to rob."

The noun is defined as: "Goods (esp. articles of considerable value) taken from an enemy, a captured city, etc. in time of war; also, in wider sense, something taken by force or with violence; booty, plunder, spoil; now sometimes transferred, illicit gains, ‘pillage’ (e.g. by a public servant)." Oldest use: 1839

The verb is "To plunder, sack (a city, building)" or "To carry off as loot or booty." Oldest use: "1845 W. H. Smith in Colburn's United Service Mag. ii. 10 He has attacked and looted several villages under our protection."

Notice that the synonym for the noun is booty, underscoring the comparisons to rape in this thread. Beginning in the 1920s, "booty" has been used as slang for "Sexual intercourse; a person (esp. a woman) regarded as an object of sexual ambition or desire. Also (occasionally): the female genitals."

The oldest use is "1926 C. Van Vechten N***** Heaven ii. iii. 215 Now..that you've gone white, do you really want..pinks for boody?" The asterisks are my censoring of the OED.

Goetz von Berlichingen said...

Freder, you are saying that BLMers have no, or a defective, moral compass.

That's racist.

To put it another way... You imply that if BLMers had a moral compass they wouldn't be looting.

That's racist.

Why is it morally wrong to loot, Freder? Why are you against the looters 'finding joy'?

Why are you so racist?

Temujin said...

Boy. How much longer do we exist as a society while putting a value on people with degrees who are obviously not well educated, mostly likely purposefully miseducated, with many just being not very bright. Yet we confer degrees onto them, and those leaning the most outrageously left, tend to get the jobs in academia and media. They become the perpetrators of idiocy.

This is just stupid and should be laughed at, mocked, ridiculed with vigor. There should not be one sane person who gives this an ounce of credence. Enough with the bullshit.

You come at a cop with a knife, you're probably going to get shot. You ingest a large amount of fentanyl and methamphetamine, you're going to have a hard time with your heart and pulmonary systems. You riot and loot, you're stealing, vandalizing, trespassing, and destroying. Small business is the engine of our economy and the largest employer in the world. Or at least it was before we decided to shut down the country. Take that away and you lose it all. Everything. Gretchen Whitmer is trying it out in Michigan as we speak.

Perpetrators of idiocy.

LA_Bob said...

Wilbur said, "When I read this, it makes me angry."

I initially reacted like this. But I decided I'm grateful NPR gave Osterweil a platform. To the extent anyone listens to NPR, reasonable people, even those with ambivalence over the "justice" issues of the riots, will easily see what a nut case she is.

Free speech. A Wonderful Thing.

Freder Frederson said...

Freder, now who is treating rioters and looters as people?

Well, they are people.

We used to shoot looters, particularly after a catastrophe. We don’t do that anymore. How is it working?

Can you provide some examples where we actually shot looters and that ended looting? Perhaps my knowledge of U.S. history is a little weak but I am hard pressed to think of an example.

Ken B said...

Those attacking this as gibberish or her as a hypocrite are blundering. You don’t want her to be dismissed as a crank. You want her front and center of this discussion. TAKE HER AT HER WORD AND ASK HER TO ELABORATE. Ask Democrats about quotations from her. Pin her to Biden and Pelosi. They lack the courage to mock and deride her. Make them pay for that cowardice.

Freder Frederson said...

Freder, you are saying that BLMers have no, or a defective, moral compass.

Like the president, I believe that the vast majority of protesters are very fine people. That there are a small minority that loot and destroy, is unfortunate. That a small number of people decide to cross state lines and confront and kill the protesters, is equally unfortunate.

Joe Smith said...

Exhibit A why NPR should be defunded.

And I looked up Vicky. Pretty sure she's either a dude or a very unfortunate-looking woman.

The entire world is nucking futs.

Jupiter said...

"Victims are just objects."

No-No! The person you refer to as "the victim" was oppressing me with her female supremacist beauty. She deserved to be raped, by me and all my friends, and she should check her female privilege. And fragility.

Fernandinande said...

Oldest use: 1839

The Castle of the Pyrenees, Or, The Wanderer of the Alps: An Historic Tale A. Lemoine, 1803 - 36 pages

Sez a cove in a red shirt and sword , slappin ' me on the back , ' Goin ' , my boy , to fight for the freedom of classic Italy and glory ? ' Sez I , ' Darn the glory . Is there any chance o ' loot ?

Sebastian said...

"They've always been a part of our movement...."

Right. As we've been saying right here, on this blog, since forever.

"I've been hearing that there are 2 groups of people — the peaceful protesters and these mysterious other people"

You've been "hearing," that have you.

"Osterweil says it's a Republican/right-wing myth "that the small business owner must be respected, that the small business owner creates jobs and is part of the community.""

Right again. The GOP is the only party that does not regard small business as oppressive and wants to protect private property.

"That seems to present looting as street theater with a message. It makes an argument. A terrible argument."

Why? So nice women with their bourgeois sentiments may be offended, but if you want revolution, this is what you do. Dems approve.

"It's a nasty tantrum thrown because you can't convince people with your ideas."

Huh? Who said anything about convincing anybody? This is a struggle, and the left is fighting.

"Ironically, fortunately, it makes the argument for the other side."

Forget arguments. Yes, the left may be miscalculating. The nice women of America may realize that the people they have supported for so long actually wish them harm. Those nice women may choose not to kneel. But arguments have nothing to do with it. The left aims to destroy and seize power. The only question is if there are enough Americans to stand up and squash them.

Of course the pro-looting argument blithely assumes that the small business people will not fight back, hard, and the the rest of us will stand by. The pro-looters rely on the remnants of restrained civilization. But we are getting closer to a breaking point.

Freder Frederson said...

When you know this is happening and you just turn your face away from it....like in Nazi Germany....turning away from the death camps....when you could have taken some steps to stop it...or at least...say NO!!...This is wrong!!........YOU ARE GUILTY OF THE ACTS just as if you committed them yourself.

So objecting to summary execution for non-capital crimes is defending Nazism? You are truly round the bend.

You do realize that the Nazis gained power by using the exact tactics (vigilantism, street brawls) that you are advocating.

Michael said...

Althouse
Thanks. I have the two volume OED set with minuscule type requiring a magnifying glass (supplied in slipcase). These old eyes missed it. The definition is there to my relief.

Goetz von Berlichingen said...

Ken B.... spot on.

Alinsky, you magnificent bastard, I've read your book!


Just because Alinsky used his tactics in the service of lies doesn't mean that they shouldn't be used in the service of truth.

Fernandinande said...

Is there any chance o ' loot ?

Forgot to add: the OED isn't very reliable. Shame, that.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

She is very unattractive as if anybody couldn’t guess.

That's a man, baby!

Clues? said...

Vicky Osterweil is a NATIONAL TREASURE. Please join me in demanding more media coverage for Vicky Osterweil. America needs to hear what she has to say, over and over until the election.

Jupiter said...

This is actually a rather interesting variant of a fairly common creed, that of the Gangster. The Gangster is a member of a group, and by joining that group, he gains the right to plunder, abuse and even kill those who are not members. But he must refrain from harming other group members, and indeed, is obligated to assist them in their depredation of non-members. Examples are; Vikings, Hells Angels, the Mafia, Muslims. Crips, Bloods, etc. for obvious reasons, this sort of thing is mostly attractive to young men.

But Willy seems to be dispensing with the group, or maybe just with the joining. By looting, you become a Looter, and thus a member.

Goetz von Berlichingen said...

Freder, why won't you answer me.
Your non-response avoids my questions. Why are you so racist to maintain that the looters have no or defective moral compasses?

Is it because you are weak-minded and cruel-hearted? Or is it just the opposite...that you are cruel-minded and weak-hearted?

Magic 8 Ball says...... Yes!

hombre said...

This woman, although more forthright, is not far from the perspective of the Democrat Left.

I liked Andrew Sullivan’s offering: ‘“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.” Marcus Aurelius’

This woman has not escaped and neither have most Democrats. Hence an NPR interview.

Ken B said...

Freder hasn’t kept up, and he parrots early mistaken reports. It’s as if he stops reading once he gets a useful tail king point, true or false.

Jupiter said...

"Now who is treating people as objects?"

Freder, people are objects. They are mostly carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen. Our determination to regard them as privileged objects likely arises from our being social animals. Tenderness towards human objects begins within the family, then the clan, then tribe, then race. America has, fairly deliberately, attempted to take it one step further, and extend most-favored status to all. A noble goal, and a desirable one, but not an obviously feasible one. One does not feel, what one does not feel.

In any case, each of these social groupings recognizes that there must be a degree of reciprocity. Those who will not provide it are excluded from its protection. Every man's hand is turned against the Outlaw.

Rick said...

That seems to present looting as street theater with a message. It makes an argument. A terrible argument. We've heard that argument in words many times over the years, and most Americans reject it.

Most Americans reject it, but it's the driving force behind the Dem base and leadership. These beliefs are perfectly consistent with AOC and Bernie Sanders.

MalaiseLongue said...

I knew instantly, upon searching for her image, that Vicky is a transwoman. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

rcocean said...

Looting can be fun - you don't even have to wear a mask. CV-19 just ignores you if you're against Racism.

Anonymous said...

Fredo Fredoson’s shit needs to get stolen and burned by the same people over and over again, like what’s happening on Nicollet Av on Minneapolis. Then if arrested (they won’t be) the Minnesota Freedom Fund will bail them out, Keith Ellisin won’t prosecute or they’ll appear in front of a Roland-Friesler type of judge. Then they can head over to Fredo’s to break all his shit again. Fredo won’t mind, it’s just property and that he is now uninsurable shouldn’t trouble anyone.

He can cry about food deserts in a different Althouse post.

Michael K said...


Blogger Dust Bunny Queen said...
Looters should be shot onsite. Period. The end.

Freder Frederson said... How is this attitude less obscene than Osterweil's? You are advocating granting the police the power of judge jury and summary executioner for theft and property damage.

Who said anything about the police?


Idiot Freder continues to dig the hole deeper. It's in keeping with his other talents such as planning large military campaigns.

The concept of property began with the Age of Agriculture. 10,000 years ago. The Rousseau concept of the "Nobel Savage," which has caused so much misery over the years, was always false. Freder does not get these historical concepts because he knows no history, and proves it every week here.

Looting is theft and theft was once punished with death. As police became more common, about 1840 in England, the number of death penalty crimes diminished. In the US western states, the death penalty lasted until civilization, with sheriffs and judges, arrived. Corruption, as seen in these Democrat cities with Soros DAs, for example, will increase the frequency of the death penalty by private means. The number of guns being purchased suggests that it is sooner, rather than later.

todd galle said...

I don't expect trouble in our neighborhood, but after watching some of the riot videos, showing rampaging miscreants with plate carriers, shields, helmets, and so forth, I arrived at a decision. I reloaded my pistol mags in a 2-1 ratio, 2 FMJs for 1 HP, both 9mm and 45. Plus distributed ammo around the house as an insurance policy. The expanding reach of these ferals into residential areas is a dangerous escalation. If the police are entirely occupied or distracted by these events (and our municipal police force is I think 5 full time and 4 part time officers in a 5000 population borough), and can't respond to citizen's calls for assistance, what other recourse is there for the law-abiding? I'm really curious, what are our alternatives to effective policing other than to arm up and protect ourselves and neighborhoods? I don't want to stand in my front lawn or end of my lane with a rifle and rig, but I will, and I believe so would several neighbors.

Rick said...

Freder Frederson said...
You do realize that the Nazis gained power by using the exact tactics (vigilantism, street brawls) that you are advocating.


It's revealing how quick Freder is to recognize the link between street armies and Nazis / fascists. Then consider he's never applied it to the mass army we've watched for three months, only to the almost entirely theoretical resistance to that army. Sometimes it seems Freder has completely different standards based solely on whether a group is allied with the left or right.

Clues? said...

I wonder if using an AR-15 for its intended purpose might be experienced as “sort of joyous and liberatory.” WWVOD?

Rusty said...

Chicago riots in 1968 Freder. National Guqard shoot to kill orders. Looting and arson stopped.
korean store owners in LA. Not looted.
You have never condemned the rioting and looting so can I conclude you condone it?
You understand why a business owner would shoot a looter, don't you?

Mark said...

There is your choice, boiled down to one example. Do you want to vote for and elect the Osterweil (Biden) agenda?

That is what November and beyond are all about.

Goetz von Berlichingen said...

Herr Feldmarschall Freder,perhaps re-phrasing the question will help you come up with an answer.
You state that cowardice is not the reason you don't break into people's houses, it's your moral compass that stops you from doing that. So what is immoral about looting?

Does this remedial approach help your understanding?

Freder Frederson said...

Freder, why won't you answer me.

Because your argument is ridiculous and nonsensical.

Freder Frederson said...

Exhibit A why NPR should be defunded.

This shows a profound ignorance of what defunding NPR would actually achieve. The vast majority of federal money for NPR goes to member stations in underserved and rural areas. If you cut off funding to NPR tomorrow, the WHYY's WBEZ's, KQED's and WNYC's of the world would be fine. In fact they receive 10% or less of their funding from the Federal Government. NPR news receives no direct federal funding. So, you would be harming real Americans, not the coastal elites.

Paddy O said...

I keep thinking about the movie Glory, with Denzel Washington and Matthew Broderick among some other greats.

It's also a movie that I don't think could be made now, since it has a very complex perspective on racism, with a wide variety of different varieties and some finding resolution while others don't. It comes to mind now because I keep thinking about the looting scene in the middle of the movie, where an anti-secession officer encourages looting, but only so far. He thinks of the black soldiers as little children, even though he seems to be on the 'right' side. Meanwhile, Matthew Broderick's character comes off as more racist in part, and the drill sergeant entirely so, but both are intent on seeing the progress of their soldiers, and the discipline they show becomes a model of both honor and success.

It's such a contrasting image that seems to so fit what we're seeing these days. The folks that are encouraging looting are really about short-term politics and statements, and really don't care about long-term progress let alone a renewed, beloved kind of community.

Freder Frederson said...

Freder hasn’t kept up, and he parrots early mistaken reports.

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but if you are somehow implying that Kyle Rittenhouse has a valid self defense argument, I don't agree with that at all. He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his. He absolutely no right to use deadly force under any circumstances. This is a classic case of a man killing his parents and then begging for leniency because he is an orphan.

RichardJohnson said...

Freder Frederson said.. @ 8/29/20, 9:48 AM

Can you provide some examples where we actually shot looters and that ended looting? Perhaps my knowledge of U.S. history is a little weak but I am hard pressed to think of an example.

From a cursory use of a search engine, which you are apparently unable or unwilling to use to answer your question. How to Stop the Rioters :

The morning after the San Francisco earthquake of 1906, Mayor Eugene Schmitz put up notices all over town warning that: “The Federal Troops, the members of the Regular Police Force and all Special Police Officers have been authorized by me to KILL any and all persons found engaged in Looting or in the Commission of Any Other Crime.”

Reports of the number of looters killed vary from a dozen to a hundred.

In December, 1913, the San Antonio River overflowed, and there was serious flooding in central Texas. The order issued to the state police was, “Shoot all looters, and shoot to kill.”

There was another famous “shoot to kill” order in 1977, after flooding in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. When Mayor Herb Pfuhl heard reports of looting he told police to kill looters, and as soon as the word got out, the looting stopped. . . .

Few people remember that when Hurricane Katrina devastated parts of Mississippi there was very little looting. Governor Haley Barbour explained why: “The reason, I think, was because I said people could shoot looters. I think it was a real deterrent.” Mississippi does not have restrictive gun ownership laws, and many citizens are armed.


From the example of Mississippi's response to Hurricane Katrina, it appears that threats to shoot looters also have some effect.

If a looter looted Freder's residence, what would Freder's response be? Inquiring minds want to know.

RichardJohnson said...

Freder Frederson @ 10:01 AM

You do realize that the Nazis gained power by using the exact tactics (vigilantism, street brawls) that you are advocating.

Do YOU realize that Antifa/BLM/lefties are the ones generating the street brawls? Given their attacks on innocents, Antifa/BLM/lefties can also be accused of vigilantism.

donald said...

You do realize that the Nazis gained power by using the exact tactics (vigilantism, street brawls) that you are advocating.

I’m advocating self defense.

I always like the dipshit that’s all like “so what you’re really saying...”. Erm, no champ.

n.n said...

Redistributive per chance retributive change in a Hutu/Tutsi cycle of social progress and justice, perhaps with a Progressive South African lynching flourish.

donald said...

You do realize that the Nazis gained power by using the exact tactics (vigilantism, street brawls) that you are advocating.

I’m advocating self defense.

I always like the dipshit that’s all like “so what you’re really saying...”. Erm, no champ.

donald said...

The kid worked at a dealership that was being destroyed by your comrades asswipe. An hour before this happened he was cleaning graffiti and helping clean up after your comrade’s attacks. He legally owned that gun. When he shot the first one, he stopped to render aid, but was driven off by your other comrades. When he short the animal that lived who had acknowledged trying to kill him, he walked straight to the police.

Fuck you.

Michael said...

Once the police are abolished, what you will get is Vigilance Committees. The Bay Area has had some experience of this. The VC's see it this way: When the looting starts, the shooting starts. If that's what you want, keep doing what you're doing.

Michael K said...

Arguing with Freder is like arguing with a dog or a child. He knows nothing and proves it every day. He thinks defending yourself make you a Nazi. Just think if Jews had armed themselves and fought back. Freder prefers the cattle cars. Yes, it would have been messy but maybe they would have found allies. Finally, they did so in the Warsaw Ghetto but it was too late.

Shooting looters has a long history in this country. I had a patient, Alfred Pinegar, who was a 15 year old boy in San Francisco the morning of the quake. He and two others stashed their bags in a tavern as they walked around the city. Later, they went back to get them as the fires got closer, and had to convince the soldiers from the fort to let them get them.

Yes, they were shooting looters in SF in 1906, you idiot Freder.

RigelDog said...

"Looters "get to the heart of that property relation, and demonstrate that without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free...."

But, but...tell us, Leftist Underpants Gnome: Where do the "things" that are free come from? And since everyone has a right to everything (well, at least poor/oppressed people have a blanket right), then we all agree that the guy who liberated the Flat Screen TV yesterday will be totally cool with another oppressed person coming over to his house and liberating the TV from the looter?

Goetz von Berlichingen said...

It's not my argument Freder, it is yours. I merely used logic to expose what you are saying. I didn't put any words in your mouth.
That you can't even defend your own arguments just further exposes you as dimwitted partisan hack that you are.

Yes, you are indeed a coward and a racist. It emanates as a vile stench with every word you write. I used to just think you are stupid, but you are far more despicable than can be blamed on your diminutive brain capacity.

Is looting moral or immoral Freder? Is it your cowardice or your morality that stops you from stealing people's TVs? These aren't hard questions for a person with a function 'moral compass'. They are pretty tough for a low-intellect, dishonest, disingenuous schmuck, however.

Danno said...

I get angry at our good friends at NPR, who believe it's appropriate to give Vicki a soapbox to spew this nonsense. Their day is coming.

Timothy McVeigh should have held his wrath and aimed it at the current NPR, NYT or CNN or any of many other leftist organizations posing as neutral news reporters.

Paco Wové said...

"Looting strikes at the heart of property, of whiteness..."

Most of the small businesses that were destroyed by riots and looting in the Bronx were owned by non-white immigrants with little in the way of financial reserves with which to recover.

Paco Wové said...

"He absolutely no right to use deadly force under any circumstances."

People were trying to kill him.

ngtrains said...

Is Vicky really Vicky - or Willie:

'she wrote an article in The Nation in 2015

Books and Ideas January 6, 2015
How White Liberals Used Civil Rights to Create More Prisons
In their quest to wipe out extra-legal racial violence, white liberals created a system that continues to kill black people—legally.
Willie Osterweil

ALP said...

Why don't the looters hike in the woods topless to get that feeling?

MadTownGuy said...

Laslo Spatula said...
"Daddy Issues Girl thinks about The Big World; still angry at Daddy.

I am Laslo.
"

Looting is Oedipal wish-fulfillment!

ALP said...

Bruce Hayden:Burn out the big businesses, and you won’t have big businesses in the area. Too expensive. Which means no large grocery stores, big box stores, etc.

***************
The only grocery store in downtown Seattle is closing up shop due to the plethora of loiterers hanging around. No one wants to elbow their way through a crowd of street people to do their shopping I guess. It hasn't been there that long and it was a Big Fuckin' Deal when it opened. "Finally, grocery shopping downtown."

Not Sure said...

At least the old-timey socialists just wanted to seize the goose.

Now they want to cut it open and seize that infinite supply of golden eggs.

How do this many people become that fucking stupid?

Joshua said...

Abraham Lincoln said that he found it interesting that of all the people who said slavery was a good thing, none of them were willing to be slaves themselves.

I wonder, of all the people who advocate for looting, how many of them are willing to allow their own property to be looted? I'm guessing none of them.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Next time you hear about "food deserts," remember this.

gilbar said...

"Looting... provides people with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure...
"And I think that's a part of it that doesn't really get talked about—that riots and looting are experienced as sort of joyous and liberatory."


That reminds me, of a famous quote, from a famous person of color...

"Looting? Rioting? You think those are fun?
HELL! wait 'til you try pillaging, raping, murder, and genocide.... Now THOSE are REALLY FUN!
NOTHING gives you the sort of joyous and liberatory that you get with burning a city state to the ground, along with EVERYONE in it "
the Genghis Khan

Nichevo said...

Freder Frederson said...
Who said anything about the police?

So now you are advocating anarchy and vigilantism. Again, the cure is worse than the disease.



You only say that, because you are the disease. At the least, you enjoy/benefit from the disease and wish it to spread and flourish. Naturally you would resent any attempt at a cure.

Bruce Hayden said...

Blogger todd galle said...
“I don't expect trouble in our neighborhood, but after watching some of the riot videos, showing rampaging miscreants with plate carriers, shields, helmets, and so forth, I arrived at a decision. I reloaded my pistol mags in a 2-1 ratio, 2 FMJs for 1 HP, both 9mm and 45. Plus distributed ammo around the house as an insurance policy.”

See if you can get your hands on solid cast ammunition instead of the FMJ. Surprised how much the supply has improved over the last year or so. We use it in MT for bears, and esp for brown bears. The problem is similar - you need penetration to pierce their thick skulls, and there is often so much muscle and fat, that hitting something important is often problematic. Probably can’t find one right now, but 10 mm is better than .45 ACP for this, because the bullets are thinner, and thus, for similar mass, penetrate better. Normally, I leave my Glock 20 in MT, when we go down to AZ for the winter (no significant bear problem in Phoenix). But I expect to bring it along this year. Still, even better to pick up a couple of long guns, if body armor is going to be a problem. I have a 300 AAC Blackout AR-15 (pistol) with a 7 1/2” barrel, plus another similar barrel. A regular AR-15 in 5,56/.223 would also be nice, but a good hunting rifle, or even a WW II M1 Garand, would be even better for the body armor and helmets.

Goetz von Berlichingen said...

Not Sure wrote:
How do this many people become that fucking stupid?
------------------------------------------------------------
A: They had to be taught to be that stupid.

I don't remember our peripatetic host(ess)ever posting any thoughts on the change in quality of students and their reasoning/thinking abilities that she experienced over the course of her tenure. If she has, I would love to read it. Especially if she relates as to how those changes (if any) impacted her thinking.

I'd like to dig up Gramsci's tiny corpse and go full Dirty Sanchez on it. If Danny Thomas were still alive he'd probably pay me to watch.

Paco Wové said...

"Next time you hear about "food deserts," remember this."

My favorite datum concerning "food deserts": if you look at the interactive nationwide map of alleged "food deserts", and zoom in on Ames, IA, you'll find a green blob (indicative of a "food desert") covering much of the southwest of town. Included within this blob: the entire campus of Iowa State University, and one of the town's two Hy-Vees (large supermarket, for those not in the know). So, not putting much faith in the data (let alone the concept).

Nichevo said...


Freder Frederson said...
Come to my house and try to take my stuff Freder.

Apparently, you are under the mistaken opinion that because I am against shooting looters simply for damaging property and theft that I am advocating looting and property damage.


In fact you are. In fact that is what you are doing. To not oppose the thing is to support this thing. If you have some middle way where those offences get stopped without the ultimate threat of force, state it. Spoiler alert, you don't. Why don't you tell us how these things are managed in Ireland?

Jim at said...

So now you are advocating anarchy and vigilantism. Again, the cure is worse than the disease.

Rules for all or rules for none.
Your side chose rules for none. So be it.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Parts of Kenosha may become food deserts, but with the garbage trucks that they just torched, the enterprising will still be able to find food, even if they have to fend off coons

Rick said...

Freder Frederson said...

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but if you are somehow implying that Kyle Rittenhouse has a valid self defense argument, I don't agree with that at all. He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his. He absolutely no right to use deadly force under any circumstances. This is a classic case of a man killing his parents and then begging for leniency because he is an orphan.


Idiotically stupid even by IngaFreder standards. The right to self defense is not eliminated because someone crosses state lines.

Bunkypotatohead said...

Arresting and trying the looters and arsonists can't undo the damage they have caused. Even if given severe sentences, it won't restore the life's work of the owner. What if the mob decides to burn the museums, with mankinds history going up in smoke and ash?
Shooting them is akin to the way you treat a termite infestation...unpleasant but necessary, to save the foundation.

Bunkypotatohead said...

Arresting and trying the looters and arsonists can't undo the damage they have caused. Even if given severe sentences, it won't restore the life's work of the owner. What if the mob decides to burn the museums, with mankinds history going up in smoke and ash?
Shooting them is akin to the way you treat a termite infestation...unpleasant but necessary, to save the foundation.

Caligula said...

Sometimes one wishes the looters themselves would get looted: reward their looting by taking everything they have, and just leave them freezing naked in the public streets.

Although the author is correct to note that the act of looting tells the world you are not oppressed but the oppressor. For who else would have the power to take whatever it pleased them to take, secure in the assumption that the same could not and would not be done to them?

The major fault lies in assuming that the looted will just keep supplying more loot for looters to take, while others will produce that loot even though no one is paying for it. The end-stage is Venezuela: no food, no medicine, no defensible space for anyone- other than a few politically connected thugs, those who have the organization, weapons and will to establish dominance.

Unknown said...

Does she imagine that in the communist paradise people don't work? That everything is free? Show me even a small commune where that has worked. In real communism, people work their butts off and still don't get ahead.

Small shop owners in black communities are often black. This is a way to get ahead. But she says they are oppressors? holy shit.

eddie willers said...

Property rights are human rights.

As has been said: "Either goods cross borders, or armies will"

The Crack Emcee said...

You guys can't admit nobody feels connected to this place.

eddie willers said...

Is Vicky really Vicky - or Willie:

"Willie"...

One minute video on youtube. Mentions Walker and Madison

Goetz von Berlichingen said...

Crack, can you rephrase that (@3:44) so it makes sense..er, uhh...is intelligible...er, uhh...is understandable...er, uhh...is clearly stated...er, uhh.....
Shit! Nevermind, I forgot. You are incapable.

Those damn white people! I know it isn't your fault. How could it be, you're black!

Go ahead and have a Capri Sun and then take a nap. You deserve it little man.

Birkel said...

Leave my continent.

Freder Frederson said...

Shooting them is akin to the way you treat a termite infestation...unpleasant but necessary, to save the foundation.

So DBQ compares people to trees (not only that, she talks about setting back fires, which indicates she is willing to kill innocent people to achieve a "greater" good), and you are comparing them to vermin, a classic Nazi technique.

I, on the other hand, argue that summarily executing people for damaging property or theft, is not indicative of a civilized society (oh, and btw, my position is actually what the current law is). Furthermore, I contend that if you deliberately go out of your way to insert yourself into the middle of a riot and find yourself in trouble, you shouldn't be able to claim self defense if you shoot and kill two people and injure a third.

Yet, on this blog, I am the one who would be shoving people into the ovens and cheering as anarchy reigns.

You people are seriously deranged.

ken in tx said...

I read about an interview with Martin Luther King Jr. in which he said that when the n*gro loots, he does not really want the things he is taking. He wants the experience of taking. To me, that means that he wants the experience of depriving someone else from having it. I think that is true.

BTW, in the 60s, some black power activists (men) did claim that raping white women was a valid political tactic for their movement.

Freder Frederson said...

In fact you are. In fact that is what you are doing. To not oppose the thing is to support this thing.

I am opposing the indiscriminate shooting of protesters (and even people looting or destroying property). Which actually means I am the one advocating for law and order (which means you can not kill someone merely for destroying property or stealing things), not you.

holdfast said...

DBQ for President.

Freder Frederson said...

The kid worked at a dealership that was being destroyed by your comrades asswipe.

No he didn't, asswipe. Even if he did, what property interest would he have had in the dealership? None. He got himself a potential life sentence for defending someone else's property. What a moron.

Drago said...

The Crack Emcee: "You guys can't admit nobody feels connected to this place."

We guys ain't not never gonna not non-admit ain't nobody never gonna not feel not connected to this non-place of a place called Althouse.

Original Mike said...

"One minute video on youtube. Mentions Walker and Madison"

He mentions fighting Walker's "budget cuts". That's not what I remember the fight being about, but accepting that for the sake of argument, where does he think tax revenues come from? Same place that free stuff comes from, I guess.

todd galle said...

Bruce,
I cast bullets in my driveway every month or so, so no trouble there. We're stockpiled with rounds on hand, plus components for reloading. I've an AR-15 lower in my basement, but have been reticent in making it into a 300 Blackout, adding a new caliber to my stable. I do like the .300 as a cartridge, though.

We've no large four footed predators here in Central PA, so will rely on a 115 gr. FMJ paired with a 147 gr. JHP. Although if a bear does appear, I've been loading for our 1878 .45-70 Trapdoor.

I hope to take my .75 1705 Queen Anne musket to the range tomorrow when the humidity is scheduled to be less that 50% or so. It stinks to clean, but along with a 58 caliber 1853 Enfield, is a 'hoot' to shoot. I've loaded regular singular musket ball cartridges, then did some buck and ball, with a .69 ball and three .30 caliber shot, then did some rounds with 9 .30 caliber shot. I'll see what I can do at 50 yards.

RichardJohnson said...

Freder Frederson said..@8/29/20, 11:07 AM
I'm not sure what you are referring to, but if you are somehow implying that Kyle Rittenhouse has a valid self defense argument, I don't agree with that at all. He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his. He absolutely no right to use deadly force under any circumstances. This is a classic case of a man killing his parents and then begging for leniency because he is an orphan.


His attorneys beg to differ.Kyle Rittenhouse's Attorneys Claim Self-Defense in Kenosha Shootings

After Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters. Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence. The business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops.Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines.


Kyle Rittenhouse was in Kenosha for his job, NOT because of the riots. Contrary to Freder's claim, Kyle Rittenhouse did not take a rifle across state lines.

More from his attorneys:
As Kyle proceeded towards the second mechanic’s shop, he was accosted by multiple rioters who recognized that he had been attempting to protect a business the mob wanted to destroy. This outraged the rioters and created a mob now determined to hurt Kyle. They began chasing him down. Kyle attempted to get away, but he could not do so quickly enough. Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle. He reacted instantaneously and justifiably with his weapon to protect himself, firing and striking the attacker.

Kyle stopped to ensure care for the wounded attacker but faced a growing mob gesturing towards him. He realized he needed to flee for his safety and his survival. Another attacker struck Kyle from behind as he fled down the street. Kyle turned as the mob pressed in on him and he fell to the ground. One attacker kicked Kyle on the ground while he was on the ground. Yet another bashed him over the head with a skateboard. Several rioters tried to disarm Kyle. In fear for his life and concerned the crowd would either continue to shoot at him or even use his own weapon against him, Kyle had no choice but to fire multiple rounds towards his immediate attackers, striking two, including one armed attacker. The rest of the mob began to disperse upon hearing the additional gunshots.

Cobntrary to Freder's claim that Kyle Rittenhouse "absolutely no right to use deadly force under any circumstances," Kyle Rittenhouse used deadly force in self-defense. It would appear that self-defense made Kyle Rittenhouse's actions quite lawful.

One more time Freder proves himself to be a charter member of Ignoramuses Anonymous.


Read the whole statement from his attorneys.

iowan2 said...

He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his.

I don't see any laws broken. Self defense is a valid response. So quit with the feels and stick to the facts.

Hercules, not that one though said...

Civilizations have a lifespan in this world that Satan rules. For a time, this thing was glorious. This thing that was built, was for those who built it.

Althouse is commenting more than normal. She perceives it. She smells it.

This thing was glorious, for those who built it. Nothing is permanent in this world.

Michael K said...

FrederInga;

He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his.

I have read today that he worked there, at the car lot, which makes more sense.

Not to FrederInga, of course.

Hercules, not that one though said...

I don't know what it's like to have a black skin when all the rest of the world doesn't. I think there's a reason for it. I just don't know what it is. People want to be with others who look like them.

Something's happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear

Crack Emcee is screaming out.
He comes here, he knows it too.

Brother, you got to live your life
Take the heat, and garner the light

We'll all laugh about it in the fullness of ti-i-me.

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