August 29, 2020

"Looting... provides people with an imaginative sense of freedom and pleasure and helps them imagine a world that could be."

"And I think that's a part of it that doesn't really get talked about—that riots and looting are experienced as sort of joyous and liberatory."

Says Vicky Osterweil, author of "In Defense of Looting," interviewed at NPR.
[A] trope that's very common is that looters and rioters are not part of the protest, and they're not part of the movement. That has to do with the history of protesters trying to appear respectable and politically legible as a movement, and not wanting to be too frightening or threatening. Another one is that looters are just acting as consumers: Why are they taking flat screen TVs instead of rice and beans?... All these tropes come down to claiming that the rioters and the looters don't know what they're doing. They're acting, you know, in a disorganized way, maybe an 'animalistic' way. But the history of the movement for liberation in America is full of looters and rioters. They've always been a part of our movement....  
I don't know if other people in "the movement" are happy to see that idea spoken aloud. I've been hearing that there are 2 groups of people — the peaceful protesters and these mysterious other people, who, I've noted, the journalists don't seem to care to identify and investigate. Osterweil is saying these are not 2 different groups. It's one movement, and it's been going on for a long time.

Osterweil says it's a Republican/right-wing myth "that the small business owner must be respected, that the small business owner creates jobs and is part of the community." She conceptualizes the small businesses as agents of oppression within the community. They're not innocent victims, unfairly targeted. So don't worry about them. In fact, as Osterweil tells it, the looting is a cogent argument — an attack on "the idea of property... the idea that in order for someone to have a roof over their head or have a meal ticket, they have to work for a boss, in order to buy things that people just like them somewhere else in the world had to make under the same conditions." In this view, it's "unjust" to have to work to make money to buy the things you need and want, because "the world is organized that way, obviously, is for the profit of the people who own the stores and the factories." Looters "get to the heart of that property relation, and demonstrate that without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free.... Looting strikes at the heart of property, of whiteness and of the police."

That seems to present looting as street theater with a message. It makes an argument. A terrible argument. We've heard that argument in words many times over the years, and most Americans reject it. We want to work and build wealth and enjoy our lives and we want the great mutual benefits of hard work and wealth. Osterweil's looting is a switch from making the argument against property in words and to speak with actions — the destruction of property. But that doesn't make the argument more convincing! It's a nasty tantrum thrown because you can't convince people with your ideas. Ironically, fortunately, it makes the argument for the other side.

215 comments:

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RigelDog said...

Paco Wove: "Looting strikes at the heart of property, of whiteness..."

Most of the small businesses that were destroyed by riots and looting in the Bronx were owned by non-white immigrants with little in the way of financial reserves with which to recover.]]]

Ah, but you have neglected to translate these normal terms into Critical Justice Speak. Whiteness IS property, and property is Whiteness; they literally believe and teach this. Go one layer deeper and the true worldview is revealed---Communism. Whiteness, Blackness, identity politics, anti-racism struggle, are all just the current vehicles designed to install Communism. The issue is never the issue, remember? It's not about racism at all, it's about power.

Rance Fasoldt said...

My OED measures 3ft of shelf space for the foot high volumes, printed (Letterpress) in 1933. My Encyclopedia Brittanica is the renowned Eleventh Edition, printed in 1911. Western civilization - better than all the others, Q.E.D.

tim in vermont said...

Supposedly, I have read, Castro used “For Whom the Bell Tolls” as a “How To” guide for communist revolution. In that book there is a scene where the local small businessmen are lined up in the public square and beaten with agricultural instruments, flails and pitchforks, and they were forced off of a cliff to their death. The townspeople were forced to participate in this even if they didn’t want to because it was felt that if they shared in the guilt, they would be more supportive of the revolution. So non participation was not an option, it was just a question of which end of the flail.

tim in vermont said...

"He absolutely no right to use deadly force under any circumstances.”

Everybody has a right to self defense. Whatever his crimes you allege, the penalty is not death, and whatever the penalty is, it is not carried out by a mob.

tim in vermont said...

"Does she imagine that in the communist paradise people don't work? That everything is free?”

Right wingers will be enslaved to produce all of the goods and services, it’s simple.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Freder Frederson,

He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his.

I am curious about this "across state lines" business; I had that pigeonholed with ancient jokes about "transporting gulls across a sedate lion for immortal porpoises." Legally, of course, it may matter in some way; but your throwing it out there as though it were obviously dispositive in the case is a little odd.

But it's the "property that wasn't even his" that gets me. Suppose someone happens by my next-door neighbor's house and decides that he'd really like his collection of Gainsboroughs. (FWIW, none of my neighbors, to my knowledge, actually has a collection of Gainsboroughs, so if you were thinking of heading out here with your U-Haul, there are probably juicier targets nearer by.) Am I forbidden to try to stop the thief from taking this property, because it isn't mine? Am I forced to do nothing as the paintings are removed and stowed (or burned on his doorstep, for that matter, since this is all about da feelz, and a Gainsborough is "just property" anyway)?

I'm thinking of the retired Black police chief, Dorn, who was shot while trying to defend his friend's pawnshop. Had he no legal right to be there? Did his shooter therefore have a legal right to kill him?

FWIW, "Vicky" does draw a distinction between looting and home invasion (about the only distinction s/he does draw, so far as I can see), and probably wouldn't allow the Gainsboroughs to be stolen/torched/whatever unless they were in a public gallery as opposed to a home.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Freder Frederson,

He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his.

I am curious about this "across state lines" business; I had that pigeonholed with ancient jokes about "transporting gulls across a sedate lion for immortal porpoises." Legally, of course, it may matter in some way; but your throwing it out there as though it were obviously dispositive in the case is a little odd.

But it's the "property that wasn't even his" that gets me. Suppose someone happens by my next-door neighbor's house and decides that he'd really like his collection of Gainsboroughs. (FWIW, none of my neighbors, to my knowledge, actually has a collection of Gainsboroughs, so if you were thinking of heading out here with your U-Haul, there are probably juicier targets nearer by.) Am I forbidden to try to stop the thief from taking this property, because it isn't mine? Am I forced to do nothing as the paintings are removed and stowed (or burned on his doorstep, for that matter, since this is all about da feelz, and a Gainsborough is "just property" anyway)?

I'm thinking of the retired Black police chief, Dorn, who was shot while trying to defend his friend's pawnshop. Had he no legal right to be there? Did his shooter therefore have a legal right to kill him?

FWIW, "Vicky" does draw a distinction between looting and home invasion (about the only distinction s/he does draw, so far as I can see), and probably wouldn't allow the Gainsboroughs to be stolen/torched/whatever unless they were in a public gallery as opposed to a home.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Caligula,

Venezuela, honestly, is the thing that convinced me that Atlas Shrugged was not hyperbole.

Rusty said...

Shorter, Freder. Roll over and take it.
Property, Freder. Something someone works a lifetime to acquire so that they can leave something to their kids. Up in smoke by morning.
He wasn't fighting to protect property Freder. He was fighting for his life. Are you enjoying this Freder? It's the show you wanted.

stlcdr said...

Trying to argue with people like Freder is that you are arguing a rather effective straw man. The real problem with looting, robbery, theft and so on isn’t about the object in question. It’s a violation of an individuals liberty.

If someone breaks into a house to steal a TV, it isn’t the loss of the tv that is the painful part. It is your home which has been invaded. If someone burns down a business that you have worked to keep going, it is your livelihood, and your life, that has been attacked.

I’ve found the leftists and progressives are more concerned with wealth and possessions than those on the right, yet accuse those on the right of greed.

Seerak said...

Property rights were the first pillar of political liberalism knocked out. Nowadays, property is largely considered a privilege, not a right.

It should surprise nobody that the rest of the structure is getting increasingly wobbly.

Unknown said...

In another couple of weeks the “anti-fascists” will be hanging people from lampposts, all while telling themselves what virtuous people they are.

autothreads said...

Apparently, you are under the mistaken opinion that because I am against shooting looters simply for damaging property and theft that I am advocating looting and property damage.

We don't shoot looters to protect property. We shoot looters to protect society.

He drove over 20 miles from his home in Antioch, IL, across state lines with a semi-automatic rifle to defend property that wasn't even his.

Millions of Americans commute farther than 20 miles to get to work. He was employed in Kenosha as a lifeguard. A property owner then employed him to protect property. The rifle was supplied to him in Kenosha. How many other things are you going to lie about, well, besides denying that you advocate looting and property damage? You think it's cool as long as it's not your own property.

Nichevo said...


Freder Frederson said...
In fact you are. In fact that is what you are doing. To not oppose the thing is to support this thing.

I am opposing the indiscriminate shooting of protesters

The boy was very discriminating. He showed marksmanship, mercy, and restraint. He fired no excess or inappropriate rounds, I believe he hit every time, or nearly so. Anyone who didn't attack him, he spared.

And they weren't protesters, will you quit that. At the point of the conflict, they weren't even rioters. They were a hit team, hunting him down like an animal.

(and even people looting or destroying property).


He did not shoot people for property offenses (which I am absolutely fine with), he shot them for trying to kill him.

Which actually means I am the one advocating for law and order (which means you can not kill someone merely for destroying property or stealing things), not you.

You are advocating for the people who were trying to kill Kyle.

John Althouse Cohen said...

NPR just updated the article on September 1, claiming that "[t]he original version of this story … did not provide readers enough context for them to fully assess some of the controversial opinions discussed," although it's unclear what additional "context" makes "In Defense of Looting" easier to "assess."

Notice how her argument is incoherent (completely aside from being immoral):

[NPR:] Can you talk about rioting as a tactic? What are the reasons people deploy it as a strategy?

[Vicky Osterweil:] It does a number of important things. It gets people what they need for free immediately, which means that they are capable of living and reproducing their lives without having to rely on jobs or a wage.… It also attacks the very way in which food and things are distributed. It attacks the idea of property, and it attacks the idea that in order for someone to have a roof over their head or have a meal ticket, they have to work for a boss, in order to buy things that people just like them somewhere else in the world had to make under the same conditions.… And the reason that the world is organized that way, obviously, is for the profit of the people who own the stores and the factories. So you get to the heart of that property relation, and demonstrate that without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free.


Even if you like those ideas, the act of stealing products from a store doesn't "demonstrate that without police and without state oppression, we can have things for free." The theft is happening within the existing system, where businesses are able to make and sell products because they know the government is standing by to stop people from just taking them. If you got rid of the government, the result wouldn't be that those same products would be sitting on the shelves of stores, waiting for us to come take them (in a gender-biased battle over who's physically strongest). The results would be that those stores and products wouldn't exist in the first place.

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