Althouse: "The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important essential places of faith to open right now. For this weekend. If they don’t do it, I will override the governors."

May 22, 2020

"The governors need to do the right thing and allow these very important essential places of faith to open right now. For this weekend. If they don’t do it, I will override the governors."

Said Trump, quoted at Axios.

126 comments:

Lucid-Ideas said...: I have a suspicion the mountain of lawsuits already forthcoming in various states is going to do that, and that right soon. POTUS not included.; 5/22/20, 1:43 PM
Clyde said...: I was watching Fox News and their commentator, Judge Napolitano said that while the President doesn't have the authority to override the governors, he can send in the Justice Department to file lawsuits over denial of First Amendment rights if any governors keep places of worship closed.

Also, I'd like to note that Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany was in fine form, especially at the end where she gave the incorrigible press their homework about what questions need to be asked of Obama's spokesperson. I don't think there was much left of the press at the end but smoking ruins. It was glorious!; 5/22/20, 1:45 PM
Inga said...: Among 92 attendees at a rural Arkansas church during March 6–11, 35 (38%) developed laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, and three persons died. Highest attack rates were in persons aged 19–64 years (59%) and ≥65 years (50%). An additional 26 cases linked to the church occurred in the community, including one death.; 5/22/20, 1:53 PM
jeremyabrams said...: Send in federal marshals.; 5/22/20, 1:54 PM
wendybar said...: You have a lot of stories about Trump today, but none about Joe saying if you don't vote for him you're not black, or when he said on the same show today "“I’m prepared to say that I have a record over 40 years, and that I’m going to beat Joe Biden”
Come on Man....Are you progressives really going to go through with this???

If you don't want to go to church....stay the hell home, nobody has a knife to your throats. Geez...it's not that difficult.; 5/22/20, 1:56 PM
Achilles said...: The history books will have trouble describing the skill that Trump has shown in making his enemies not only show themselves, but destroy themselves in doing so.; 5/22/20, 2:01 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Good for him. Strengthen the herd.; 5/22/20, 2:02 PM
Bill Harshaw said...: I'm sure that authority is somewhere in the Constitution. Trump would hardly have acted without reading it thoroughly.; 5/22/20, 2:04 PM
Not Sure said...: This should be informative.; 5/22/20, 2:05 PM
Dave Begley said...: I would love to see the Governors of NY, NJ and MI at the church door personally blocking people from going to services. The spirit of George Wallace lives! Send in the SWAT teams. Or the National Guard. First Amendment rights are no longer tolerated. Too risky. Too dangerous. Obey or else. Submit to the power of the State!

Or, maybe, the US Attorneys in each state go to federal court next week and force the issue.

Not tired of winning.; 5/22/20, 2:06 PM
mikee said...: Rights can be infringed, but they still exist as rights.; 5/22/20, 2:09 PM
Dan in Philly said...: ACLU drafting a rebuttal as we speak...; 5/22/20, 2:10 PM
Sydney said...: Ohio's governor always says he never closed houses of worship. They did it voluntarily. The Catholic Bishops have said we can start to have mass again Monday. The plan is to practice at week day masses and then have Pentecost service on May 31st. Our church bought portable plexiglass shields for the eucharistic ministers to stand behind. They are tall enough to shield their faces and stop at mid chest so they can hand the host to the parishioner. We have to wear masks and sit six feet away from each other and sanitize our hands before communion. I suspect we will soon see the end of all of this distancing and shielding and masking. People are beginning to realize that the virus isn't as big a threat as it first seemed.; 5/22/20, 2:11 PM
Drago said...: Lefties like Inga are now in full panic that Christian churches and Jewish synogogues are opening.

Interesting note: Inga has yet to comment on mosques and their activities.

The continuing clear alignment between the democraticals and islamists, in particular islamist supremacists, continues apace.

Only surpassed by the strong alliance between the democraticals and the ChiCom's as evidenced by democratical senators attempting to make it illegal to refer to the ChiCom/WHO Wuhan Lab Bat/Pangolin Flu the "wuhan flu" and the full court democratical press to reestablish China's trade advantages over the US and to continue to allow the ChiCom's to continue their hacking of US govt agencies and US businesses.

Interestingly, Hunter Biden, despite promises made months ago, remains a board member of the ChiCom funded "investment" company to the tune of $1.5Billion sweet, sweet US taxpayer dollars.

Perhaps his crack addiction has too severely effected his memory.; 5/22/20, 2:28 PM
Jim at said...: I'm sure that authority is somewhere in the Constitution. Trump would hardly have acted without reading it thoroughly.

It's right next to the same authority you assholes were demanding he use in order to shut everything down two months ago.; 5/22/20, 2:31 PM
Jim at said...: Earth to Inga: Today is May 22. Not March 6-11.; 5/22/20, 2:33 PM
Drago said...: I'll bet if Christian churches said they wanted to meet to pray for the soul of Soleimani all lefty complaints about church congregations would go....poof.; 5/22/20, 2:37 PM
jim said...: THIS is panic:

Among 92 attendees at a rural Arkansas church during March 6–11, 35 (38%) developed laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, and three persons died. Highest attack rates were in persons aged 19–64 years (59%) and ≥65 years (50%). An additional 26 cases linked to the church occurred in the community, including one death.

???; 5/22/20, 2:38 PM
Jersey Fled said...: The "law" that authorizes the President to do this is called the Constitution.

Have the DOJ immediately file lawsuits in any jurisdiction that does not cooperate. Do you really think any of these Governors wants to p.o. every observant Christian, Jew and Muslim in their state?

The tide was turning anyway. Trump was smart enough to get in front of it and put blue state Democrats in the crosshairs. Three dimensional chess.

Incidentally, the Arkansas study that Inga so triumphantly referenced smells like BS to me. It takes eight PHD's and MD's to study one 96 person church?

Time will tell.

If I am proved to be wrong, I will admit it here. Kind of like when Inga admitted she was wrong about Russia Collusion.; 5/22/20, 2:39 PM
Drago said...: Jim at: "Earth to Inga: Today is May 22. Not March 6-11."

The Gregorian calendar is a sexist tool of the Patriarchy and has been weaponized by Trump Nazi treasonous traitors.

Obviously.

BTW, each of those adjectives has been used by Inga to describe Trump and his voters and has never retracted any of them.; 5/22/20, 2:44 PM
Drago said...: Jersey Fled: "Have the DOJ immediately file lawsuits in any jurisdiction that does not cooperate. Do you really think any of these Governors wants to p.o. every observant Christian, Jew and Muslim in their state?"

Do you really think any of these democratical Governors wants to p.o. every observant Muslim in their state?

FIFY; 5/22/20, 2:44 PM
daskol said...: Just when you think Trump couldn't get luckier in his enemies, they do even crazier shit. At this point the lockdown fanatics have really lost the plot. I am in deep blue NYC, and the kind of things I'm hearing here, whether from parents who are disgusted that their kids' summer camps have closed, or a private practice physician whose business is failing, or teachers shocked at the crazy CDC school guidelines, are not supportive of the continued lockdown. These power mad petty tyrants are going to wind up swinging from lampposts.; 5/22/20, 2:46 PM
Gusty Winds said...: He doesn't even have to send in the Justice Department. He just needs to get the Dem Governors on TV to say no. Make them take a stand to keep the Churches locked down.

I think Mayor Beetlejuice of Chicago already hit the airwaves.; 5/22/20, 2:48 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "You have a lot of stories about Trump today, but none about Joe saying if you don't vote for him you're not black, or when he said on the same show today "“I’m prepared to say that I have a record over 40 years, and that I’m going to beat Joe Biden” "

I wanted to listen to the whole 19 minutes to get the real context, but I'm stalled at 6 1/2 minutes because Biden is yelling too much. I don't like just passing along whatever the meme of the day is. Feels trite and dumb. I'm not blogging to give you the latest updates on what people are insisting is the news of the moment. Too much bullshit.; 5/22/20, 2:48 PM
daskol said...: Even fake black man Shaun King is disgusted with Biden's othering of black voters.; 5/22/20, 2:52 PM
n.n said...: High COVID-19 Attack Rate Among Attendees at Events at a Church — Arkansas, March 2020
...
The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, some infected persons might have been missed because they did not seek testing, were ineligible for testing based on criteria at the time, or were unable to access testing. Second, although no previous cases had been reported from this county, undetected low-level community transmission was likely, and some patients in this cluster might have had exposures outside the church. Third, risk of exposure likely varied among attendees but could not be characterized because data regarding individual behaviors (e.g., shaking hands or hugging) were not collected. Finally, the number of cases beyond the cohort of church attendees likely is undercounted because tracking out-of-state transmission was not possible, and patients might not have identified church members as their source of exposure.

It would interesting to trace the immigration/migration path of the virus.

The guidance for social distancing from military scientists in Wuhan, is 3 m spacing, 6 if you follow the precautionary principle. Anything less, then wear a mask, goggles, and seal any open wounds, or wear a full body condom. It is not known if a women who is pregnant can transmit the virus to her child.

That said, people who socialize in "greenhouse" spaces may want to consider a Planned Pathogen (PP) protocol, a prophylaxis, including HCQ+AZ that reduces the virus's viability and burden.; 5/22/20, 2:55 PM
AlbertAnonymous said...: Inga:

How many of them were already sick, and how many contracted it while at the church?; 5/22/20, 2:55 PM
Michael K said...: Inga, that rural Arkansas church sounded almost like a NY nursing home.

The difference being, of course, that the church goers were there voluntarily.; 5/22/20, 3:02 PM
Drago said...: Andrew Bostom@andrewbostom

CDC, 5/21/20 https://cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios-h.pdf, concedes infection fatality ratio (IFR of) “Covid19/Wuhan flu” is = 0.27%*, almost= to 1957-58 pandemic H2N2 flu in U.S., i.e., 0.26%** h/t @ElonBachman BUT NO "LOCKDOWNS" in 1957-8! (1/3)…
6:26 AM · May 22, 2020

https://twitter.com/andrewbostom/status/1263808424489467906; 5/22/20, 3:03 PM
Drago said...: AlbertAnonymous: "Inga: How many of them were already sick, and how many contracted it while at the church?"

Further, how many had other encounters with potentially infected or confirmed infected individuals in what circumstances?

All questions that will never be answered by Inga the Headline Only Reader.; 5/22/20, 3:05 PM
n.n said...: An additional 26 cases linked to the church occurred in the community, including one death.

They have only confirmed that the virus is present in the community, but they cannot identify the immigrant/migrant/path of its transmission, or if it has found safe sanctuary and poses a progressive risk. In the meantime, they can identify symptomatic (high risk) people... persons, and people... persons who will be most burdened by the pathogen, and proceed accordingly.; 5/22/20, 3:07 PM
Drago said...: daskol: "Even fake black man Shaun King is disgusted with Biden's othering of black voters."

Not to worry though democraticals!

Trusty Jemele Hill has ridden in for the rescue and is, get this, criticizing conservative whites for daring to speak up for black people in their criticism of Biden who speaking for black people!!

LOL. Yes, that is a precisely accurate description of what she did.

Too funny. They are imploding all over the place with Rapey Gropey Slow Joe.; 5/22/20, 3:09 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: I'm not sure what God's purpose, but I think he wants us to go to church, shake hands, hug people, enjoy outdoor sunshine, enjoy fresh air, and, by logical deduction, he wants us to do this in a sea of invisible viruses, since, if you believe in Darwinian evolution, they came first, we kinda sorta evolved from them.

So, I say, Go to Church!

Carry on, Comrades.; 5/22/20, 3:10 PM
readering said...: I was a little surprised when Catholic churches announced they were stopping in-person services before government orders started kicking in. I've been to a number of Masses held in secret behind the bamboo and iron curtains. Hotel room or private home.

Thanks to the decline in attendance, social distancing not a problem at most Catholic church services (besides the only 2 days POTUS attends Protestant services with his family, one of which passed during the pandemic). I doubt opening Catholic churches will lead to big surges in attendance. It's easy to find a Mass online.; 5/22/20, 3:11 PM
Big Mike said...: Do you really think any of these Governors wants to p.o. every observant Christian, Jew and Muslim in their state?

@Jersey Fled, to my knowledge no mosque has been closed anywhere in the United States in response to this epidemic. Only churches and synagogues.; 5/22/20, 3:14 PM
Inga said...: I’m not advocating closing churches, I’m saying that as much as some of you seem to want this thing to just disappear and no longer infect and kill people, it’s still here. Make wise choices...or don’t.; 5/22/20, 3:14 PM
n.n said...: othering of black voters

Something similar happened in post-apartheid Progressive South Africa, where black turned against black, and lynching was a favored activity. Hutu and Tutsi, too. Diversity or color judgment (e.g. low information attributes, inference) is clearly a poor religious/ethical guide.; 5/22/20, 3:15 PM
Big Mike said...: @Albert, Inga is merely waving the Democrat’s favorite banner: “All you deplorable Christians are stupid.”; 5/22/20, 3:17 PM
rhhardin said...: It seems like a bad idea, if you're going to do slow opening. Singing, closed room, proximity, huge numbers for one infected person to give it to. It's about the worst place to be, unless you want to kick off an epidemic again.; 5/22/20, 3:27 PM
Tommy Duncan said...: Minnesota has reported 842 deaths from COVID-19. 688 of those deaths involved Nursing Home / LTC residents. That's 81.7%.

Wisconsin has reported 496 deaths, of which 215 involved Nursing Home / LTC residents. That's 43.3%.

The Minnesota numbers are bewildering.

Nursing Home/LTC COVID Deaths By State; 5/22/20, 3:28 PM
n.n said...: Darwinian evolution

is God or Nature's chaos ("evolution"), which may have fast state transitions. The point of conflict is not the process (e.g. life), but creation ("source") not to be conflated with conception that can be scientifically deduced in the near-domain.

if you believe in Darwinian evolution, they came first, we kinda sorta evolved from them

An assumption/assertion, an article of faith, plausible in the post-normal scientific mode. People want to, need to believe.; 5/22/20, 3:29 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: Imagine if everyone worldwide simultaneously contracted the virus.

That it was lethal, and our immune system was powerless against it,
and no known remedy.
But what if one person, who's blood was pure and unaffected could
be used as the cure, although to do so would cost this person
their life.
What if, rather than telling the world to "go to Hell", they laid
down their life out of love for mankind.

the alpha and Omega Man; 5/22/20, 3:33 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: I think churches opening will cause a lot of spread given what they've found about viral load, time, and singing. However, freedom of religion is sacrosanct, and people should be informed of the risks and make their own decisions.; 5/22/20, 3:36 PM
TJM said...: More people are at Walmart on Sunday than at Church and they are in Walmart longer than in Church. So much for the “Party of Science.”; 5/22/20, 3:36 PM
Lurker21 said...: Academic articles usually have a lot of authors. If your career advancement depends on published articles you want to be listed as a contributor, and since the practice is widespread, nobody objects.

I don't have a problem with churches being closed if there is a major health danger. A place where hundreds of people could gather would be more dangerous than a liquor store where only a few people at a time were in brief contact. If the danger was exaggerated, then the churches would open up gradually along with everything else; 5/22/20, 3:42 PM
Inga said...: “Inga, that rural Arkansas church sounded almost like a NY nursing home.”

“Highest attack rates were in persons aged 19–64 years (59%)”; 5/22/20, 3:48 PM
Dave Begley said...: Ann:

And Biden was yelling at Andrew Ross Sorkin who is a Dem and wants Biden to win. Joe Kernan is the conservative and he only got 2 questions.

Biden was confused at who to yell at.

Beau Biden is crying in heaven.; 5/22/20, 3:50 PM
DanTheMan said...: >>I'm sure that authority is somewhere in the Constitution. Trump would hardly have acted without reading it thoroughly.

It's right here:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or ---> prohibiting the free exercise thereof <----; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble"

We had a discussion about whether or not this applied to the states back in the 1860s.; 5/22/20, 3:52 PM
Achilles said...: Inga said...
Among 92 attendees at a rural Arkansas church during March 6–11, 35 (38%) developed laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, and three persons died. Highest attack rates were in persons aged 19–64 years (59%) and ≥65 years (50%). An additional 26 cases linked to the church occurred in the community, including one death.

They all certainly got it from going to church.

Those people dying from what Inga asserts was going to church must be stopped from going to church.

Inga and her tribe must be given the power to stop those people from going to church.

For their own good of course.; 5/22/20, 3:53 PM
bagoh20 said...: Great link, Inga. Now find one that describes the aftermath of Cuomo and his nursing home decision. His decision, forced on thousands of innocent elderly with no choice in the matter. And well after the effects were known, and continuing on after the dead stacked up. Only after it was too late to save anyone did he reverse it.

Cuomo/Grim Reaper 2020; 5/22/20, 4:02 PM
techsan said...: Freedom is only given to those who demand it. Others are more then willing to decide for you.; 5/22/20, 4:03 PM
Harsh Pencil said...: Blogger Ann Althouse said...
....I'm not blogging to give you the latest updates on what people are insisting is the news of the moment. Too much bullshit.

Good for you. It's your blog. More polite than I would have been in your shoes. You're not our performing monkey.; 5/22/20, 4:08 PM
PB said...: Start filing charges and have US Marshalls start arresting.

Section 241 of Title 18 is the civil rights conspiracy statute. Section 241 makes it unlawful for two or more persons to agree together to injure, threaten, or intimidate a person in any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the Unites States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same). Unlike most conspiracy statutes, Section 241 does not require that one of the conspirators commit an overt act prior to the conspiracy becoming a crime.

The offense is punishable by a range of imprisonment up to a life term or the death penalty, depending upon the circumstances of the crime, and the resulting injury, if any.

TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 241

If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same;...

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.; 5/22/20, 4:08 PM
gadfly said...: Georgia church reopens, quickly closes again after several families get coronavirus

Our Stable Genius strikes again with this lose-lose proposition despite whatever happens next. Damned if he do . . .; 5/22/20, 4:12 PM
Jeff Brokaw said...: The fact that the CDC issued a 60 page document covering how to re-open all kinds of places where people gather but did not think to include churches tells us a lot.

Millions and millions of people do that every week and are more than ready to get back to physically being with those who share their faith, but a distant federal bureaucracy doesn’t think it matters enough to include it in those 60 pages. Got it.; 5/22/20, 4:18 PM
narciso said...: curious circumstance, also one of those chain migration things,

https://cis.org/Bensman/How-Corpus-Christi-Jihadi-Attacker-Entered-United-States; 5/22/20, 4:20 PM
narciso said...: what is Italian for chutzpah

https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1263877943950028800?s=20; 5/22/20, 4:22 PM
gadfly said...: Georgia church closes two weeks after reopening as families come down with coronavirus.

Our Stabile Genius is damned if he do, damned if he don't. Time to quit messing with God.; 5/22/20, 4:28 PM
Churchy LaFemme: said...: "You have a lot of stories about Trump today, but none about Joe saying if you don't vote for him you're not black, or when he said on the same show today "“I’m prepared to say that I have a record over 40 years, and that I’m going to beat Joe Biden” "

I heard that clip, and I agree with those who say it was: "I'm going to be Joe Biden"
In other words, "I'm the guy with that 40 year record". He's awful in general, and probably senile, but on this one I give him a pass.; 5/22/20, 4:31 PM
Browndog said...: It's easy to find a Mass online.

You may be surprised to know virtual life is not the same as real life.

You may want to sit down for this one: Not everyone has the ability to live stream.; 5/22/20, 4:44 PM
John Althouse Cohen said...: Trump's wrong. Religious buildings aren't "essential" in the sense of the word we've been using it in 2020, to refer to people who absolutely must show up in person because there's a job they need to be doing that can't be done long distance. Religious services can be streamed online. That might not be ideal, but it's possible. On top of that, in-person religious services typically involve gathering a large group of people to sit together indoors for hours, which is exactly the kind of activity that reportedly spreads the coronavirus (much more than briefly walking within a few feet of someone outside).

By the way, remember when Republicans were outraged about an Islamic center being planned too close to the World Trade Center in New York? And remember when Trump said during in the 2016 Republican primaries that he was going to ban all Muslims from entering the US? And remember when Trump said "Islam hates" America? But now Trump cares so much about Muslims that he thinks going to a mosque in person is "essential"! Yeah right.

Trump makes it even more obvious that this is all political posturing when he complains that "abortion clinics" have stayed open, as if that's somehow at odds with closing mosques and churches. Of course, a surgical procedure has to be done in person.

Trump also points out that liquor stores have stayed open — but if they had been shut down, you can just imagine the outcry from conservatives and libertarians about how government is using the pandemic as an excuse to become more and more of a "nanny state."; 5/22/20, 4:47 PM
rcocean said...: Oh no, Trump is a DICTATOR!!!

And he should have shut down the country two weeks earlier - no matter what the Governors said.; 5/22/20, 4:56 PM
cubanbob said...: Clyde said...
I was watching Fox News and their commentator, Judge Napolitano said that while the President doesn't have the authority to override the governors, he can send in the Justice Department to file lawsuits over denial of First Amendment rights if any governors keep places of worship closed."

What are Trump and Barr waiting for? They should have done this weeks ago. Not only first amendment violations but also for acting criminally under the color of law.

AA if you don't want to listen for 19 minutes this guy wraps it up in less than two:

https://twitter.com/ZubyMusic/status/1263895495824596994; 5/22/20, 4:57 PM
rcocean said...: You need to remember that all this "Biden is insulting black folks" isn't addressed at black voters - they don't care. Its not going to change their vote.

Its directed at the Soccer Moms.; 5/22/20, 4:59 PM
mccullough said...: Trump knows people don’t go to church in the summer. So a politically smart move.; 5/22/20, 5:01 PM
rcocean said...: No reason why churches can't reopen if they maintain social distancing or wear masks.; 5/22/20, 5:02 PM
Drago said...: Uh oh. Bloomberg reports on the analysis of the relative impact of lockdown restrictions in 17 European nations on excess deaths.

Spoiler: "But, as our next chart shows, there’s little correlation between the severity of a nation’s restrictions and whether it managed to curb excess fatalities — a measure that looks at the overall number of deaths compared with normal trends."

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-opinion-coronavirus-europe-lockdown-excess-deaths-recession/

The hopelessly moronic Poor Man's LLR-C**** gadfly and Inga hardest hit.

"I am going to beat Joe Biden"
---Joe Biden, 2/22/20; 5/22/20, 5:05 PM
Inga said...: “Albert, Inga is merely waving the Democrat’s favorite banner: “All you deplorable Christians are stupid.””

No, I am not. I’m a Christian, I don’t think Christians are deplorable at all. Deplorable people are deplorable, no matter what their faith or lack of it.; 5/22/20, 5:10 PM
Friendo said...: Inga, you cunt, you're just ray of sunshine, aren't you. Jeezus christ. Give it a rest already.; 5/22/20, 5:18 PM
narciso said...: a bravura performance

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2020/05/22/president-trump-holds-a-press-briefing-130pm-et-livestream/; 5/22/20, 5:22 PM
Inga said...: “The fact that the CDC issued a 60 page document covering how to re-open all kinds of places where people gather but did not think to include churches tells us a lot.”

Interim Guidance for Communities of Faith from the CDC; 5/22/20, 5:22 PM
Mrs. X said...: “ I think churches opening will cause a lot of spread given what they've found about viral load, time, and singing.”

I’m puzzled by the putative singing problem (genuinely, not snidely). I sing in a semipro choir and my group is freaked out about the potential for infection based on the nature of what we do (though of course we’re not doing it now). My question is that If singing provides such a fertile source of contagion, why doesn’t every cold contracted by any choir member rip through the whole group? I can attest that this is not what happens.; 5/22/20, 5:27 PM
William said...: No joke. It's the choir and the choir practice that are the super spreaders in church services. (In like way, yoga classes are less risky than aerobic classes in gyms.)...I think it's possible to practice safe distances in most churches. Church goers are not, by and large, crazed, suicidal cult members. They can probably be trusted to behave as prudently in church as they do in supermarkets....I'm sure there's some kind of algorithm that factors in volume of space x length of exposure x intensity of exposure. Cathedrals are probably safer than chapels. Parishioners should avoid high mass and pastors should nix lengthy sermons.; 5/22/20, 5:29 PM
wildswan said...: I hear the initial Wuhan flu outbreak was at a Chicom party convention in Wuhan. Wonder if the Dems will copy the Chicoms and hold the Dem convention in Milwaukee where the number of hospitalizations is currently rising? Things probably won't be much better in August - we have our own micro-climate by Lake Michigan. [What should we do? University of Wisconsin Madison, Dept of Public Health got 383.5 million dollars from outside sources for research. But it's doing nothing for Milwaukee where covid has broken out badly and hospital cases are increasing. Why Milwaukee? Why is it second worst in the nation? Nobody knows. And why isn't the university warning of the other public health dangers following on from being unemployed or from being out of school and falling behind or from being unable to get heart check-ups or from being unable to go to PT or a gymn. Maybe the researchers have all closed their labs and gone off to a lake where they can sit about with friends, chatting freely without all those city worries. Great idea, hmmm?]; 5/22/20, 5:43 PM
readering said...: Sitting down as I type. My 87-year-old mom in lockdown in her elder care facility grateful to be able to live stream mass.; 5/22/20, 5:45 PM
Birkel said...: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-opinion-coronavirus-europe-lockdown-excess-deaths-recession/

The strictness of the shutdowns across the world did not lead to lower case loads.
Covidiots were - of course - correct.

Karen B was wrong.
Treat the lady parts better.; 5/22/20, 5:54 PM
The Godfather said...: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. And nothing ain't worth nothing, but it's free."

You know, there was a time when people accepted the risk of being burned at the stake as the price of going to church.; 5/22/20, 5:57 PM
Jupiter said...: "sea of invisible viruses, since, if you believe in Darwinian evolution, they came first, we kinda sorta evolved from them."

Seems unlikely. Since we can get along just fine without them, whereas they can't reproduce without us.; 5/22/20, 6:04 PM
I'm Not Sure said...: Reading comments on this topic, one gets the impression that the very same people who dislike the religious are the ones most concerned for their safety.; 5/22/20, 6:05 PM
Birkel said...: The death rate is similar to that of a bad flu.

https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/05/22/the-cdc-just-gave-us-the-biggest-reason-to-end-the-coronavirus-lockdowns-n417178

Follow to get to the CDC official numbers.
Covidiots have a record of being correct.

Treat lady parts better, Karen B.; 5/22/20, 6:05 PM
Robert Cook said...: "I'm sure that authority is somewhere in the Constitution. Trump would hardly have acted without reading it thoroughly."

Such brilliant snark! So lean, concise, and understated. Bravo, sir!; 5/22/20, 6:14 PM
I Callahan said...: must show up in person because there's a job they need to be doing that can't be done long distance. Religious services can be streamed online. That might not be ideal, but it's possible.

When’s the last time you went to church? You see, the above is not your call. That between people and their churches. The first amendment gives the benefit of the doubt to the churches themselves.

Trump is not wrong here - you are, and blatantly so.; 5/22/20, 6:17 PM
Achilles said...: Tommy Duncan said...
Minnesota has reported 842 deaths from COVID-19. 688 of those deaths involved Nursing Home / LTC residents. That's 81.7%.

Wisconsin has reported 496 deaths, of which 215 involved Nursing Home / LTC residents. That's 43.3%.

The Minnesota numbers are bewildering.

Nursing Home/LTC COVID Deaths By State

It isn't bewildering.

COVID-19 is less dangerous to people under 60 than the flu.

The democrats's/statists needed deaths.

Restricting access to vulnerable populations and lowering the death count did not serve their purposes. Their purposes were to destroy the economy and seize control of peoples lives.

So they shut down schools, restaurants and many small businesses.

They let large crony corporations stay open.

And they forced nursing homes to take COVID-19 positive patients.

They got control, deaths, and a destroyed economy.

Win win win for the statists.; 5/22/20, 6:24 PM
I Have Misplaced My Pants said...: My church is not singing. Duh?; 5/22/20, 6:25 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: Mrs. X, I'm mostly basing my comment on this. I think this sums up why many people are concern about choir practices and singing in church. This seems more virulent than a regular cold.; 5/22/20, 6:29 PM
Robert Cook said...: "You know, there was a time when people accepted the risk of being burned at the stake as the price of going to church."

It's not about the worshipers and their willingness to become infected as a cost of practicing their religious rituals, it's about the people around them in their communities who did not make that choice but who might become infected by contact with infected worshipers.; 5/22/20, 6:29 PM
Drago said...: I'm Not Sure: "Reading comments on this topic, one gets the impression that the very same people who dislike the religious are the ones most concerned for their safety."

LOLOLOLOLOL....oh. Wait. You were serious, weren't you?

Wow.

Did you really think that one would work, or was it simply the only rhetorical arrow left in your quiver?; 5/22/20, 6:43 PM
Drago said...: John Althouse Cohen: "Trump's wrong."

You're wrong. Completely.

And dont think we dont know perfectly well where you cats want to take this.

Not on our watch.; 5/22/20, 6:46 PM
Mark said...: In the District of Columbia, the plan for Stage One of "re-opening" is to allow churches to be open to ten people. Given the number of ministers at a typical service, that allows for maybe five regular people.

Meanwhile, the following are permitted to be open without any significant restrictions -- supermarkets and convenience stores, including big-box stores, liquor stores, laundromats, medical marijuana centers, banks, media outlets, mass transit, and more.

Equal treatment demands that government not require more of churches.; 5/22/20, 6:56 PM
Birkel said...: Trump is aware of the political calculus.
Lots of church attendees vote and he is taking a position on the side of church attendees.
As a matter of course, Leftist collectivists will now be anti-Trump's-position. (See above.)

Trump wins.; 5/22/20, 7:00 PM
Mark said...: Consider that, regardless of what Caesar says, the essence of a church's existence is to save souls, to lead people to God. That is their whole raison d'etre. In other words: essential.

And they have been quite overwhelmingly patient in going along with the shutdown.

But at least with respect to the Catholic experience, which is inherently and intensely incarnational in aspect, that is, it necessarily involves and operates on the body of the human person and not merely on his intellect or spirit, physical presence is essential. Not only for the reality of community as social beings, but because without such in-person presence, you cannot confer or receive those outward and visible physical signs that were instituted by Jesus to convey grace, the invisible power of God.

Continued shutdown is nothing more than an attempt to destroy the very life of churches. It is ecclesiastical genocide.; 5/22/20, 7:05 PM
John henry said...: Blogger Birkel said...

The death rate is similar to that of a bad flu.

CDC has something called the Influenza Like Illness network to track flu deaths.

They estimate something like 26m to 64m ILI deaths in the 19-20 flu season.

When they have a network that for 10 years has been specifically set up to track flu deaths we should expect fairly exact numbers. Some variability, perhaps +/-5% or so, but they should have a pretty accurate number.

But they don't. They have a range of over 120%. That range is so wide as to be meaningless.

And, if you read the footnotes, they don't even seem very sure that actual flu deaths are within the 26-64m. Could be less, could be more.

Why the Hell should we pay ANY attention to ANY data from CDC?

Why the Hell should the CDC even exist if they can't do better than this?

John Henry; 5/22/20, 7:07 PM
Mark said...: John Althouse Cohen said...

Stop. Just stop. Both you and AA need to simply stop trying to talk about religion, particularly Christianity, specifically the Catholic Church.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT whenever you attempt to discuss the matter.; 5/22/20, 7:18 PM
Mark said...: Reading comments on this topic, one gets the impression that the very same people who dislike the religious are the ones most concerned for their safety.

It is certainty ignorance on display.; 5/22/20, 7:20 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Sweet. Now override abortion laws that prohibit life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in direct, no penumbras required, violation of our American Constitution's Declaration of Independence.

We know certain cultures, like pimp culture, celebrate abortion: We want to eliminate or execute pimps and abortion.; 5/22/20, 7:27 PM
Howard said...: I am concerned about the potential collateral damage to people who will have no choice but to participate (children and demented) and the unsuspecting civilians out in the world.

Have you herd the Good immunity News, Friend?; 5/22/20, 7:27 PM
Big Mike said...: No, I am not. I’m a Christian, I don’t think Christians are deplorable at all.

Very well, Inga, I shall amend what I wrote. The banner you wave reads “All you Christians are stupid.” Delete the word “deplorable.” But obviously you do not regard devout Christians as having enough working brain cells to assess risks, so surely you regard devout Chtistians as being stupid.; 5/22/20, 7:32 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: "I'm sure that authority is somewhere in the Constitution. Trump would hardly have acted without reading it thoroughly."

Yeah, Trump has read the Bill of Rights. Part of the Constitution of America. But why do you think nothing has changed in 200+ years, and also that Trump doesn't have advisors that understand precisely what has changed, and why, who then keep Trump abreast?

Maybe you should start using a pseudonym?

Certainly the Constitution of America had authors that understood that, but you don't seem to.; 5/22/20, 7:36 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: "rhhardin said...
It seems like a bad idea, if you're going to do slow opening. Singing, closed room, proximity, huge numbers for one infected person to give it to. It's about the worst place to be, unless you want to kick off an epidemic again.

5/22/20, 3:27 PM"

It seems like you are so blind you don't realize your emotions guide your thoughts. Without proper emotion, 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4 Hardin, subjectively. You can't accept this baseline because that would mean your knowing early 2 + 2 equals 4 could be subjective. The fact is is it is subjective, and also can actually be true via logic, the same subjectiveness.

Many things subjective, vast vast things, aren't true, but it isn't necessarily subjective to conclude math is objectively true. We just do it.

Perhaps all the reasons you list as possible vector transmissions will not be accurate now, as they would (might) have been 4 months ago.

Step it up Hardin. Surely leaders of religion already have adapted and adjusted for the concerns you brought up here, and therefore share, just as surely as we'll see stories about how religious leaders have caused oh so many deaths because they rejected SCIENCE!

You can't sit back with any satisifaction thinking "oh they are all so stupid and biased but I am unique and not (have no) biased just a science science science guy who fucks around when I type about anything but specific references to things about Derrida."; 5/22/20, 8:09 PM
n.n said...: abortion clinics.... a surgical procedure has to be done in person

The elective abortion of a human life (i.e. excess deaths) is an essential service.; 5/22/20, 8:16 PM
Lewis said...: If I see another person with a face mask - that's the disease, not the 'disease' - I'll punch them. Might as well wear an arm band saying "I'm a cowardly shit and you should be too".; 5/22/20, 8:18 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Nobody real hates Trump. I don't know what thread I am on and don't care: Trump isn't hated by anyone real.

Real is what makes Trump Trump.; 5/22/20, 8:43 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Boy I jjust lit it up with my last one.

WHOOOOO!; 5/22/20, 8:44 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Trump 101: View the wrestling tapes. More. He needs the $ because 10 ain't enough Billions.; 5/22/20, 8:45 PM
rcocean said...: The CDC has some interesting statistics on the CV-19 death rates. Some of it is based on estimates, but most is based on all the data we have recorded for the last 3-4 months.

First out of 100 persons infected, 65 will have symptoms.
Of those 65 who have symptoms, only 3 percent (over 65) will require hospitalization. So we're down to 2 percent of Seniors.
Of the those Seniors with symptoms who are hospitalized, only 25% will go to the ICU. So we're down to .5% of Seniors.
Of those Seniors who go to the ICU - approximately 60% will die. That's .3%.

The numbers for those under 50, show that only 2 per thousand with Symptoms need to be Hospitalized. The CV-19 virus for those under 50, is no worse than the annual flu.

Instead of requiring those over 65 to "Shelter in place", not work or travel, and take precautions, we've shut down the whole county, including schools, when they didn't need to be.

Its a sad situation.; 5/22/20, 9:02 PM
I'm Not Sure said...: "LOLOLOLOLOL....oh. Wait. You were serious, weren't you?"

It's sarcasm. This is the internet, you know.; 5/22/20, 9:14 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: The patterns are too convenient for there not to be God.

Who is behind the patterns>; 5/22/20, 9:19 PM
Guildofcannonballs said...: The patterns are too convenient for there not to be God.

Who is behind the patterns>

It ain't Althouse, tell you that.; 5/22/20, 9:19 PM
Lewis said...: The 'face mask' is actually a metaphor - If you read Freud, you'd understand this - for castration - hence, the Bacchanalian furore for it - how many of us want to be castrati? Think of the new, now old, fashion for beards? Overcompensating or what? Always micropolouski , what Aristotle called 'tiny dicks'.; 5/22/20, 9:27 PM
Lewis said...: I don't blame the women - women don't create anything except babies - except Akhmatova big exception, I admit, a weird case - because all the best men were murdered she had to step up to the plate - and Teseveteyeava but she was just crazy - and that was an extraordinary time which produced extraordinary people -but men do, catastrophes, mostly. Men - greasy haird bastards - have brought this period of nihilism upon us, a rain of frogs. They made it, they love it, they're probably trying to grow a beard.; 5/22/20, 9:39 PM
Lurker21 said...: The irony may be that in the African-American vernacular - or maybe just in the American vernacular - "I'm gonna be Joe Biden" sounds a lot like "I'm gonna beat Joe Biden."

I heard it on the radio and understood it as they presented it -- "I'm going to beat Joe Biden" -- but who knows what Biden meant to say.

One problem is: why would you use those words knowing that they could easily be misheard by people who think you are senile anyway?

Another problem: what's in question is just who Joe Biden is. Joe can't assume that people think he was a great crusader for civil rights who attended protests, just like he can't assume that "my honor as a Biden" has any meaning to most of his audience. Those things are at issue and not things Joe can rely on.; 5/22/20, 9:53 PM
wendybar said...: I wanted to listen to the whole 19 minutes to get the real context, but I'm stalled at 6 1/2 minutes because Biden is yelling too much. I don't like just passing along whatever the meme of the day is. Feels trite and dumb. I'm not blogging to give you the latest updates on what people are insisting is the news of the moment. Too much bullshit.

5/22/20, 2:48 PM
Just showing what a typical progressive thinks. Wow!; 5/22/20, 9:54 PM
Mrs. X said...: Freeman Hunt, COVID may be more virulent than the common cold but from what I’ve read it’s less contagious. The common cold is also transmissable up to three days before symptoms appear. If singing were such a potent infection spreader, I think all choir members everywhere would be sick all the time. Based on my experience, they’re not. Ditto with all opera and theater casts. The situation with the Washington State choir seems to be unique, unless there was reporting that I missed (entirely possible!).; 5/22/20, 9:55 PM
Bunkypotatohead said...: Shouldn't we be closing down the nursing homes? That seems to be where the bulk of the damage is being done.
Plus it would keep that black guy in Michigan from beating up the patients.; 5/22/20, 10:05 PM
Birkel said...: JAC stands for typical Leftist Collectivist.

At least it has the 't' in common.; 5/22/20, 11:23 PM
PhilD said...: "Instead of requiring those over 65 to "Shelter in place", not work or travel, and take precautions, we've shut down the whole county, including schools, when they didn't need to be."

But on the other hand 'we' (that would be the democrat governors) forcefully exposed the +65 to the virus in the retirement homes. That has to count for something (/s).; 5/23/20, 2:20 AM
gadfly said...: More sickness from a sick mind. Right up there with "Nobody has done what I’ve been able to do and I did it despite the fact that I have a phony cloud over my head that doesn’t exist.”; 5/23/20, 5:08 AM
RigelDog said...: Inga said: I’m not advocating closing churches, I’m saying that as much as some of you seem to want this thing to just disappear and no longer infect and kill people, it’s still here. Make wise choices...or don’t.}}}

Scratching my head. The spaces where I see people emphasizing the fact that the virus is NOT going to just disappear and that we have to face that fact and learn how to re-open society and live with nature's nasty presence are spaces such as the Althouse community. My NextDoor feed, on the other hand, is stuffed with highly educated Trump-haters who are acting as though we will disappear this thing as long as we lock down indefinitely and wear masks when we are walking outside. Because science.; 5/23/20, 11:35 AM
Jason said...: John Althouse Cohen said...

Stop. Just stop. Both you and AA need to simply stop trying to talk about religion, particularly Christianity, specifically the Catholic Church.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT whenever you attempt to discuss the matter.

***************************************

Fecking Bingo. I was about to address Cohen's weapons-grade pig-headed ignorance on this topic but you did it for me.

That was some next-level stupid, even by lib standards.; 5/23/20, 2:13 PM
Freeman Hunt said...: "Freeman Hunt, COVID may be more virulent than the common cold but from what I’ve read it’s less contagious."

I'm seeing estimates of the R0 for the common cold at 2-3 and for COVID-19 at 1.9-5.7, which would make COVID-19 possibly much more contagious. But who knows. I guess we'll find out later on.; 5/23/20, 3:39 PM
Jim at said...: The hypocrisy of the left is stunning. Not surprising, but stunning.

On one hand, they're blaming Trump for not seizing power and shutting down entire states much earlier.

And on the other hand, they're saying Trump doesn't have the power to command entire states to do things.

Well, which is it? It's one or the other. It can't be both.; 5/23/20, 4:04 PM
Kirk Parker said...: Jim,

"It can't be both."

You literally have no idea of the left's power of doublethink.; 5/24/20, 3:04 AM
I'm Full of Soup said...: The meaning of essential has now changed in 2020 per JAC so the govt will tell us how to practice religion. Like Fen always said, liberals will show you what they really think of you and your beliefs [religious and non religious]. So yes, you think like a facscist JAC.; 5/24/20, 7:08 AM
Farmer said...: John Althouse Cohen said...
Trump's wrong. Religious buildings aren't "essential" in the sense of the word we've been using it in 2020, to refer to people who absolutely must show up in person because there's a job they need to be doing that can't be done long distance. Religious services can be streamed online. That might not be ideal, but it's possible.

That doesn't work for Catholics, the Orthodox or many Lutherans. Basically, anybody who believes in the Real Presence.; 5/24/20, 8:50 AM
RigelDog said...: Mrs. X said, re: the dangers of group singing, "My question is that If singing provides such a fertile source of contagion, why doesn’t every cold contracted by any choir member rip through the whole group? I can attest that this is not what happens."

Perhaps it has something to do with where in the respiratory tract the virus is most prevalent? I seem to remember something about Covid taking hold in the deep lung, which is a place deliberately accessed by singers.

I am also a singer and it is a real grief to me to think of how long it will be until people will feel comfortable singing together again.; 5/24/20, 11:02 AM
Nichevo said...: That doesn't work for Catholics, the Orthodox or many Lutherans. Basically, anybody who believes in the Real Presence.

Or Jews. You need ten men assembled to form a minyan. And for the devout, telecoms will not do, especially on Shabbos when the use of electricity is denied.; 5/24/20, 11:16 AM