Let me give you an excerpt from the article I can bear to look at, "Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously":
Are ongoing, onerous shutdowns warranted beyond what is necessary to avoid overwhelming ambulances, hospitals, and morgues?.... If we knew that a broadly effective COVID-19 treatment was imminent, or that a working vaccine was months away, minimizing infections through social distancing until that moment would be the right course. At the other extreme, if we will never have an effective treatment or vaccine and most everyone will get infected eventually, then the costs of social distancing are untenable.... [W]e cannot know what the best way forward is even if we place the highest possible value on preserving life and protecting the vulnerable....
Ongoing closures and supply-chain interruptions in wealthier countries could have catastrophic ripple effects, Michael T. Klare warns in The Nation, highlighting the possibility that global starvation could soar....
“A prolonged depression will stunt lives as surely as any viral epidemic, and its toll will not be confined to the elderly,” Heather Mac Donald argues at Spectator USA....
At Arc Digital, Esther O’Reilly asks, “Why should we assume that a crashing economy would leave the healthcare system standing?”....
[An] article in The Lancet noted that “education is one of the strongest predictors of the health and the wealth of a country’s future workers, and the impact of long-term school closure on educational outcomes, future earnings, the health of young people, and future national productivity has not been quantified.”...
The last global depression created conditions for a catastrophic world war that killed roughly 75 to 80 million people.... The downside risks and costs of every approach are real, frightening, and depressing, no matter how little one thinks of reopening now....
Posts
200 comments:
Don't you wonder how it became a *bad* thing to want to go to work, to run your business, to allow others to do the same? Don't you wonder how it became a *bad* thing to ask questions about why we are shut inside our houses?
I understand people wanting to be cautious, or being afraid. But people who don't just want to stay home are being villified, and that seems so against what we were even 4 months ago.
Shocking, those of us who were pro-shutdown initially (told we needed to flatten the curve) and who are now advocates of re-opening the economy are not the crazy "grandma killers" we're portrayed as.
Turns out this is all complicated and simply "listening to the experts" isn't the panacea people say it is.
Can we once and for all put to rest the “overwhelm the hospitals”. It happened in only one spot (NYC) and then only for a very short time. And in the meantime we impoverished EVERY hospital nationwide.
And now with growing unemployment when we have the “second wave” a much greater proportion of those patients will be without insurance, further impoverishing hospitals.
So”locking down” the entire population is only saving us from our fears and from some one’s computer generated catastrophe.
I suspect that if the global shutdown ended tomorrow, it's too late to prevent ruinous second and third-order effects. The shutdown decision was done in fear, ignorance, and hysteria. Governments kills the most people of all, as the 20th century demonstrated. 21st century examples to follow.
Just heard about a Robert Woods Johnson Foundation study that found that up to 40 million Americans with employer supplied health insurance could lose health insurance as a result the shutdown.
How many will die while mostly Democrat governors who will never lose a paycheck fiddle?
Just heard about a Robert Woods Johnson Foundation study that found that up to 40 million Americans with employer supplied health insurance could lose health insurance as a result the shutdown.
How many will die while mostly Democrat governors who will never lose a paycheck fiddle?
Early in Trump's presidency, I got in a twitter exchange with Conor Friedersdorf where he literally argued that antifa cannot be fascist because it was formed to oppose fascism-can't I read? It's right there in the name!
Ever since then, it's bugged me to read a sane sensible essay by him because I feel like I know the real Conor behind the facade.
In which it is argued that the virus is, or might be, among the least of our worries. Of course this is all speculation argued based on models and historical equivalences. An honest effort but not taking a firm stand.
This is a battle for freedom against tyrants.
I'll take the risk.
If you want to hide in your home and cower, be my guest.
My freedom and rights are not negotiable, nor do I have to convince you to return them to me.
The state is going to have to get off our fucking backs or we're going to have to turn against the state and forcibly get it off our backs.
Thanks for the offer to continue jailing me for my own good. Up yours.
Mass hysteria on a global scale caused by over-reliance on incompetent experts and the trust of flawed statistics given by a monstrous Communist regime.
The latest on what happened in China is that nearly 50,000 people died in Wuhan alone, not a few thousand. This would surely put the death toll in China in the hundreds of thousands. And first cases began appearing there in October, weeks before people first thought it began....Where, o where, was our CIA and other intelligence agencies? Why did our government trust the numbers coming out of China late last year?
Orders have come down to disengage on this front, to permit the likes of California Governor Newsom make strategic withrawals without losing face.
This is very likely a trial balloon for this line.
"Evil pot-stirring" is true. Adam Serwer is the sort of annoying White guy who's made a career out of the fact that his mother is African-American.
He's not always wrong, but he's always venomous. Mothers of America, Don't send your sons to Vassar!
This is a good argument for being responsible in the way we reopen the economy and end mandatory social distancing. Instead of plunging head first and demanding that everyone else does too, try some employ some patience, some caution while taking steps toward opening up social distancing. If everyone throws caution to the wind or denies that this virus still exists and there is a huge spike in cases, what good will that do? We would end up being plunged back into stricter social distancing, people will not just volunteer themselves to be the canaries in the coal mine.
Why not try to make reopening work better for everyone by not acting like reckless idiots? Demanding that people rise up and demand the end to this pandemic immediately is like children demanding that their bloody knees from a fall just disappear as if by magic. Now is the time to act like adults. Adults understand that we won’t survive as a nation with endless social distancing, I don’t see anyone demanding it. I see smart people saying proceed with caution while climbing out, so as not to slide backwards.
Love the new tag.
This writer is less irrational than most of those at The Atlantic. But how earthshaking is his big idea here? We all calculate costs and benefits all day long. Trade-offs = life. The effort to present the lockdown as all gain and almost no pain is stupid and it is backfiring badly. “Trust the model!” is just a modern form of “Because I said so” uttered by a guy in a white coat or a woman in a fancy scarf. The benefits of lockdown are reduced in practice to a red number of infected/hospitalized/dead on the CNN channel, while the costs are mounting and are felt directly by every last one of us. Telling us to ignore them, or live with them to keep that red number “lower than it might have been,” is a losing game. As it should be.
Joel Kotkin has a piece out today on “hygienic fascism,” which is how unelected bureaucrats force their will on populations by declaring the verdicts of Science. They are the high priests of this mystery; they interpret the oracle; and all of it for our own good.
It wasn't that long ago the Covidiots were claiming infection was exponential among other nonsense. It's amusing that as soon as their alarmism can no longer be maintained they try to frame their move toward the middle as being generous to other people instead of abandoning their own idiocy.
Here's how reliable and authoritative the experts and governors of Massachusetts are:
Watch "How to Fix a Drug Scandal" on Netflix.
35,000 drug convictions thrown out because the labs were faking results and a succession of DAs covered up the results.
This behavior is common in New York State where I live, too.
Yeah, I really trust the authorities and experts when they say I have to live in fear and hide in my house.
Couldn't be they have a self-interest or that they just enjoy the S&M game.
It will be a painful lesson for those who chose to remain defiantly illiterate about the basics of micro and macro.
On the plus side tis a tiny victory to hear those illiterates use 'supply chain' correctly, in context.
Blogger Phil 314 said...
Can we once and for all put to rest the “overwhelm the hospitals”. It happened in only one spot (NYC) and then only for a very short time. And in the meantime we impoverished EVERY hospital nationwide.
I think the hospital staffs in other parts of the country were overwhelmed- at least the people working the COVID floors. In the Detroit area, some hospitals had a lot of COVID patients. BUT...think about people like Tapper reporting that the Henry Ford Hospitals *were* deciding who's lives were going to be saved and who's weren't. The hospitals pushed back, but fear had been stoked.
Now in this area, we have a mall in Novi that was converted to a COVID hospital that has treated a total of 5 patients (as reported on NPR on Friday). They don't know whether to close it or to keep it for a second wave. The Beaumont hospitals, which treated the most COVID patients, have ads on television asking us to come in for our normal procedures. "We're open!" the CEO says. The hospitals weren't over run.
I understand that we had to go big as this thing approached, but I like to think that someone is going to evaluate the response (and not just in a "what did Trump know and when did he know it" sort of way). That following "the science" isn't the answer people want to tell themselves it is.
Inga- there is no state that is reopening that isn't doing it in a phased manner.
The world economy is the system that enables almost everyone in the world to provide goods and services to one another. For months, the idea that it's important to preserve that system was advanced by Republicans, so it could be safely dismissed as selfish, evil, and racist. Now that The Nation is making the same point, reasonable people have to take it seriously.
"The coronavirus epidemic has rendered the racial contract visible in multiple ways. Once the disproportionate impact of the epidemic was revealed to the American political and financial elite, many began to regard the rising death toll less as a national emergency than as an inconvenience." -- Might this have more to do with being told there would be a million dead by now instead of perhaps 100,000? I think the over estimation of the amount dead has done more to make people think it isn't as big of a national emergency as we thought a few months ago more than "racism."
Woops. Think I posted this in the wrong place first time around.
"If we knew that a broadly effective COVID-19 treatment was imminent, or that a working vaccine was months away, minimizing infections through social distancing until that moment would be the right course."
Only insofar as it produces any health benefits. Considering that most people don't even notice they get infected, and young, healthy people suffer barely measurable negative effects, social distancing is pointless for most, and sensible only in dealing with vulnerable groups -- which should stay away in any case.
"[W]e cannot know what the best way forward is even if we place the highest possible value on preserving life and protecting the vulnerable."
Well, the very fact that we know who the "vulnerable" are tells us the best way forward is not to to coerce the invulnerable into doing things that harm them and the whole economy without producing any benefit for the "vulnerable."
@7:29 Prove Owen wrong.
That's about the entirety of the points I want to make.
The experts are wrong. Even Birx declared she no longer believes anything out of the CDC.
Open everything up. People making decisions best suited to them, will always be the best outcome.
Experts run long term care facilities. Do I need to expand on that statement? If you don't understand, I feel for your ignorance.
“Inga- there is no state that is reopening that isn't doing it in a phased manner.”
Because they aren’t giving in to the demands of those gun toting yellers out protesting, demanding everyone just go back to pre pandemic, like reckless fools.
Inga: "If everyone throws caution to the wind or denies that this virus still exists and there is a huge spike in cases, what good will that do?"
Inga couldnt stop lying if her life depended upon it.
Rick at 7:33am captures it well.
Inga attempts to position herself as the reasonable middle of the roader as if 4 months of calling others literal murderers can be wished away.
In precisely the same way that suddenly, for some reason, russia collusion is no longer an interesting topic at all snd neednt ever be discussed again.
Regardless of the circumstances, a free market will adjust to new information faster than an authoritarian central-controlled market. We are not yet back to the level of free market we had in February, but at least our President is allowing federalism to work and individual states to act independently. Some of those states are letting individual counties act independently, and some of those counties are opening up faster than others. This freedom allows information to be collected, studied, a course determined, and acted upon faster than the National News Media can keep up.
we need to immediately reverse course on the conversion of food into auto fuel. adding ethanol made from corn to gasoline should not only be no longer required, it should be made illegal. we are on the edge of a worldwide famine, we need every scrap of food for the humans.
" not acting like reckless idiots? "
All great things are started, at least, by reckless idiots.
Respect them. They may leave their bodies, or someone elses bodies, on the paths they found and broke, but you are on that path, aren't you?
I recall this argument striking me hard, long ago, in Niven & Pournelle's "Mote in Gods Eye". The alien "Crazy Eddies" are the most human thing about them. That should make an awesome movie btw. Very doable with todays CGI.
@MayBee, don’t bother to point out reality to Inga. She’s always right and we’re always wrong.
Lefties like her really hate people who work for a living.
And let’s forever put to rest the false suggestion that the government has experts. It has bureaucrats whose credentials can make them sound superficially like experts, but that’s about it.
Inga- there is no state that is reopening that isn't doing it in a phased manner.
Worldometer needs to start tracking straw man deaths related to Coronavirus.
Is it all about a pandemic or the 2020 election?
During a task force meeting Wednesday, a heated discussion broke out between Deborah Birx, the physician who oversees the administration’s coronavirus response, and Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Birx and others were frustrated with the CDC’s antiquated system for tracking virus data, which they worried was inflating some statistics — such as mortality rate and case count — by as much as 25 percent, according to four people present for the discussion or later briefed on it. Two senior administration officials said the discussion was not heated.
“There is nothing from the CDC that I can trust,” Birx said, according to two of the people.
[emph added-jrh]
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/as-deaths-mount-trump-tries-to-convince-americans-its-safe-to-inch-back-to-normal/2020/05/09/bf024fe6-9149-11ea-a9c0-73b93422d691_story.html
If Laura Birx can't trust it, how can we trust it? Every report about kung flu should use "reported" or "alleged" before any words or phrases talking about infection rates, death rates and the like.
Yeah, it's "sources say" and the WaPo so possibly fake news that Birx said that. But we are hearing the same thing from plenty of other sources. The data is bullshit.
John Henry
One aspect of American exceptionalism was that Americans were more likely to be "reckless idiots", or "crazy Eddies", than most of the human race in their time. The fact that Americans are still willing to march on their state capitals with guns in their hands, well, thats the most encouraging thing I have heard about the world in many years.
We are living through the modern version of the Great Tulip Panic and seeing how delicate the balance is between function and dysfunction in our interconnected worldwide economy. No one can point to a historical loss of 20% of jobs and show his we get out of it without a recession or depression taking hold. It’s never happened that the USA had one fifth of employees suddenly unemployed. Worldwide tax and private revenues dried up. We have no predicate. This is an unprecedented disaster and it isn’t going sway quickly just because we did it to ourselves.
Historically, what has happened when jobs cease at anywhere near this scale? War, famine, anarchy and tyranny. Not the petty tyranny of a governor Whitmer or Newsom, but Stalin-Mao-Hirohito type tyrants. China has lost face and will lash out and blame somebody internal or external. But then what is a cash-strapped Commie factory country going to do when supply chains disconnect, lenders default on loans China made, and an overwhelmingly unmarried male population grows restless with no jobs no money no women and little hope? History says this is how wars start. China has few choices available for changing the rest of the world’s mind about the WuFlu and how China’s deception created mire death and panic.
The good news we are almost done with flu panic and will soon be overwhelmed by economic panic as the engine of the worlds economy proves difficult to restart and bring up to speed. Once existential panic kicks in it will be too late to heal the rift Progressives have created and exacerbated over the last century and our political Left and media will likely side with China against America, the same way they have united to foment panic and side with COVID practically rooting for death and destruction if it offers hope of damaging Trump. They will burn down civilization itself to get at OrangeManBad and take him down. We have passed through the Overton window into Cloward-Piven on steroids.
Great article by Koppl in “The New Critic” on why it is so dangerous to give power to experts. They’re like the rest of us: eager to help and biased toward defending their status as experts.
https://thecritic.co.uk/the-fallen-state-of-experts/
The need to re-open in stages where necessary has been obvious for weeks, for so many reasons. It stuns me, actually, that so many people are happy to follow the advice of a bunch of bureaucrats and NGO dorks with no skin in the game.
There is a clear divide in our country: “livelihood directly affected by the economy” and “other”. DC and WHO bureaucrats plus people like Neil Ferguson in the UK are obviously in “other”.
Pro tip: don’t listen to experts whose lives are not impacted by their advice, and are not accountable for their forecasting and models.
Also: no more advice on how to run the economy from medical people. Ever.
If the shutdown has provided any benefits at all, then that benefit will have to diminish as society re-opens==>there will necessarily be a surge in spread of the virus. This is because only a tiny fraction of our population has developed immunity by becoming infected with the virus and recovering. The rest of us are as susceptible as we ever were. We will be back to square one, but with a fractured global economy hampering out survival efforts.
Waiting for a vaccine (hope) is not a plan. Herd immunity is the only sure resolution to this horrible crisis. Let's go get it!
So stay locked up in your house until you get permission from the Government??? No thanks.
One side is labelled "pro-human" and the other is, I guess, anti-human? I thought it was very human to work, interact, socialize, you know, be human. People who are attracted to totalitarian solutions are always self-righteous. It's a necessary tactic, becuase to get totalitarian, you need total obedience, so everyone not in line must be evil. They can't just be wrong, and certainly can't have a valid point. They have to be dangerous, selfish, murderous etc, etc.
Meanwhile we never hear about Hong Kong. Not shut down, no mask order (though a lot of people wear masks routinely there) population density greater than NYC, ethnic Chinese (which seems to be a factor), part of China.
As of May 11, 2020, 1048 cases, 982 recovered, 4, count 'em 4, deaths.
What is going on over there? Why are we not emulating them, whatever it is?
John Henry
Because they aren’t giving in to the demands of those gun toting yellers out protesting, demanding everyone just go back to pre pandemic, like reckless fools.
1- Is that what they are demanding? That everyone just go back to pre-pandemic?
2- Are they not "Giving in" to the gun toting yellers? I know lots of people and their peers who seemed endlessly satisfied to stay home and remain quarantined. It isn't until the protests started that some of the governors decided maybe totalitarianism and shaming weren't enough.
I love what Buwaya says...all good things are started by reckless idiots. It's true! The US wouldn't even exist if it weren't for reckless idiots.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said... They will burn down civilization itself to get at OrangeManBad and take him down. We have passed through the Overton window into Cloward-Piven on steroids.
5/11/20, 8:05 AM
Ding, ding ding!!! It's what they have wanted from the beginning. https://www.returnofkings.com/97979/how-the-cloward-piven-strategy-is-driving-the-united-states-to-collapse
Those who actively resisted the shutdown over-reach are my heroes. Some were young, old, rich or poor, most were not famous, becuase that would be at risk. They took risks, they defied unreasonable authority, they resisted petty assaults on their lives that often were nothing more than ego-driven. Thank you to the most American of us.
Unfortunately for Obama, I think the panic was put into place to stop the treason of the Obama administration from becoming big news. Oh well. Tick tock, Obama...tick tock.
"Take the Shutdown Skeptics Seriously" Please, children who refuse to look at two sides of an issue, don't scoff at the adults.
"These facts may not be evident from the least thoughtful proponents of reopening, many of whom advance arguments that are uninformed, dismissive of experts, or callous. But the warnings of thoughtful shutdown skeptics warrant careful study" Huh. There are some children on the other side too. Please, children, don't assume that everyone is a child.
I guess the assumption is that only children read the Atlantic.
The Boomers assume that because they are now the authorities that authority is benevolent and kind. Not at all like the arbitrary, self-interested authority against which they rebelled.
@Mike *MJB Wolf” - excellent analysis at 8:05AM. We are entering very dangerous times. I never expected in my lifetime to see anything like this.
If you are not comfortable going out in public, then don't. As for the "reckless idiots" that do go out and about, the virus will take care of them for you.
I prefer the story about how Trump is killing black people. The mayor of Atlanta blamed Trump for the vigilante killing in Brunswick, GA. Something about the “Rhetoric” Coming from the White House. She is running for the VP slot, hoping to get the nod. So naturally she reaches into the Obama playbook of racial healing. A vile and stupid woman.
i'm thinking it's enemy action, at this point, yasha monck is still pushing the panic, adam serwer is a reliable tool, he's like mikey formerly at the American prospect and other places,
[W]e cannot know what the best way forward is even if we place the highest possible value on preserving life and protecting the vulnerable....
What bullshit this is. We will go forward by “washing hands, avoid touching your face and wear a face mask.” We’ve known it all along. But we have already miserably failed at “ preserving life and protecting the vulnerable” even though we all know it hit old folks hardest we ALLOWED the virus to reach convalescent hospitals, jails and other places we were told to protect. We failed. Time for a new tactic like being adults and resuming normal life with added precautions. It ain’t rocket science.
I feel like Adam Serwer's great pleasure in life is to hang out with Whites until they say something offensive and he can say, "But, ... don't you realize ... I ... am ... Black?!!" and then go hang out with gentiles until he gets the opportunity to say, "But, ... don't you realize ... I ... am ... a ... Jew?!!" On a good day, he can fit both in.
Trump should shut down the government. That’s the only way to get the press to agitate for “return to normal.” Remember how the media goes apeshit over every temporary government shutdown but has no urgency to restart the actual functioning economy when it’s down?
no we know you're a knave or a fool, and that's what we need to know about you,
MayBee said...I love what Buwaya says...all good things are started by reckless idiots. It's true!
A couple of my favorite quotes:
Never doubt that a small group of committed individuals can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
--Margaret Meade
Just as every conviction begins as a whim, so does every emancipator serve his apprenticeship as a crank. A fanatic is a great leader who is just entering a room.
--Heywood Broun
Why not try to make reopening work better for everyone by not acting like reckless idiots?
I would argue that the "reckless idiots" are the ones keeping the lockdowns in place. The human and economic cost are massive for what may turn out to be little net gain. It may take decades to dig ourselves out from this. And the U.S. is in better shape to absorb the economic fallout than most. Even the UN is predicting a massive increase in the number of children falling below the poverty line, with all of the consequences that liberals decry every day.
there really is no point to the atlantic
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/05/coronavirus-in-one-state-36.php
“If you are not comfortable going out in public, then don't. As for the "reckless idiots" that do go out and about, the virus will take care of them for you.”
People who are going out and behaving responsibly are not the reckless idiots. I’m perfectly comfortable leaving my home, I do it everyday unless it’s raining out. I go out to stores, wear a mask while inside and disinfect my hands as soon as I’m in the car. I’ve never washed my shoes, unless they were dirty. Take them off before you get inside your home. Keeps you from having to wash floors so often too. It’s gross wearing shoes in the house that you wear outdoors. When out walking, I maintain distance and don’t ever wear a mask. Really, how hard is this?
Because they aren’t giving in to the demands of those gun toting yellers out protesting, demanding everyone just go back to pre pandemic, like reckless fools.
This is what passes for thought with Inga.
The obvious thing to do now is to allow those at higher risk to stay out of circulation, which is less costly for them as most are retired, while allowing those at lesser risk to resume their lives.
The precautions for those returning to work might be to avoid crowded mass transit and other close proximity, perhaps requiring masks in such settings, although masks are mostly theater.
We know now that 21% of New York City residents have antibodies to the virus. This resembles the results from the cruise ship experience.
Andrew Cuomo has probably killed off the most vulnerable nursing home population with his insane policies but nursing homes still require extra precautions.
I mentioned yesterday that NBC reported Mike Pence is laying low but not quarantining himself because someone on his staff has tested positive. Some of the health experts are "following the science" because they have decided to self-quarantine for this reason.
BUT...Pence is being tested every day. Is that not following the science? If you test negative but you are still supposed to self-quarantine for 14 days, how are we ever going to move forward? What happened to the people who said we can move forward once we can be tested every day?
Inga- ask the people who are not yet allowed to open their businesses how hard this is.
Americans are more unruly than Europeans, or Canadians or New Zealanders, but compared to the rest of the world we are pretty well behaved. One problem with American exceptionalism was taking Western Europe for the norm, rather than an exception of its own.
"Because they aren’t giving in to the demands of those gun toting yellers out protesting, demanding everyone just go back to pre pandemic, like reckless fools."
How about a reference for your claim, Princess? Who are these hordes of people demanding we instantly go back to pre hysteria days? I haven't seen any. Everyone on this blog who advocates avoiding economic Armageddon wants to protect the vulnerable and unleash the non vulnerable in order to stave off societal collapse. Someone has to make those bed pans you empty, you know. Think of this way, when you leftists finally realize your "Marxist-paradise-in-the-US" you're going to be really disappointed to find it's a 1960's era Romanian state store. I've been in 62 countries around the world and no where does the population live on unicorn farts, which is all the country is producing right now.
Bush seeded the Katrina clouds because he hates black people.
Trump made a virus because he hates black people.
Media = George Conway.
Because they aren’t giving in to the demands of those gun toting yellers out protesting, demanding everyone just go back to pre pandemic, like reckless fools.
Stop being mean to yeller people. Wow.
They're not going to force anyone to go back to work, they are just asking that everyone gets the option.
"The Coronavirus Was an Emergency Until Trump Found Out Who Was Dying..."
That put me off from the Friedersdorf's article. The moral: don't set up a lemonade stand next to a steaming turd.
that was last months round of fizbin, maybee, now it's something else again, it does appear that dc is a supercolony of infection, they have about 500k people, about the size of Alaska, btw, there have been 10 fatalities there, so the usual suspects have pushed for a recall of the sensible governor Dunleavy, because reasons,
"What happened to the people who said we can move forward once we can be tested every day?"
Those goalposts aren't going to move themselves, you know.
"The Coronavirus Was an Emergency Until Trump Found Out Who Was Dying"
People Trump's age were dying.
It has occurred to me over the weekend what bugs me most about the Corona Virus response. It's the preening self-righteousness of those who so cheerfully champion the idea of social isolation. Look at Me! I'm saving all the people who are vulnerable!! Am I not such a good person!! I hope to tolerate them a bit more now that I understand why they bug me so.
This is a better article than usual from The Atlantic. But on the whole, I've been struck by the low quality of the information we're getting from the MSM, including the so-called "High Quality" magazines like the New Yorker, New Republic, and god help me the Atlantic.
We don't need "orange man bad" or scarmongering, and certainly don't need some moronic Good guys vs. the evil mob that won't wear masks. As stated above, we should look at other countries that are doing better and asking why. We should be given the facts on what's working and what's not, and why. In short, we should be given facts and serious medical analysis instead of left-wing politics and click bait.
Pro-Human... Pro-Person, Pro-Economy, Pro-Choice.
Prudent, Bold, Pro-Life.
For example, i just read that you don't need to be 6 feet apart, you only need to be 3 feet apart. But Medical Authorities didn't think people would do it properly, so they expanded to six feet for a margin of safety. The problem is that all the stores are running based on how many people can fit, using 6 feet. Result? People waiting in line.
So is this true or not? I can't find the answer. OR why are masks now being required when they weren't before, even though the Virus is decreasing in activity? We're starved of credible information and our Governors should be justifying their actions, instead all we get it "rah, rah, shut it all down" and "anyone who doesn't do what they're told is a Nazi".
Glenn Reynolds today: "...every issue in America is now addressed by media-shaming of the deplorables. This is tremendously destructive to the social fabric, but also apparently irresistible."
Along comes Inga to prove him right.
Mike (MJB Wolf): "The good news we are almost done with flu panic and will soon be overwhelmed by economic panic as the engine of the worlds economy proves difficult to restart and bring up to speed. Once existential panic kicks in it will be too late to heal the rift Progressives have created and exacerbated over the last century and our political Left and media will likely side with China against America, the same way they have united to foment panic and side with COVID practically rooting for death and destruction if it offers hope of damaging Trump. They will burn down civilization itself to get at OrangeManBad and take him down. We have passed through the Overton window into Cloward-Piven on steroids."
Worth repeating.
Note: The dems/left have also fully aligned with the islamic supremacists as well.
MJBWolf says, Trump should shut down the government. That’s the only way to get the press to agitate for “return to normal.”
Exactly; this would have the immediate effect of uniting Americans in a more long term approach to combating Covid-19 instead of Inga's goal of pitting the Karens against the knuckle dragging patriots.
First, viruses are diversitists, rabid, even. Second, as with HIV, the Wuhan virus (formally known as SARS-CoV-2) is a hygienic contagion. Wash your hands, stay out of black holes, practice social moderation, and cover your mouth, nose, eyes, and any other "socially" vulnerable interfaces, and or maintain a 3 m, 6 if you follow the precautionary principle, physical distance. Also, consult your doctor to use appropriate disinfectants (e.g. HCQ+AZ) to mitigate progress of an infection.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
They will burn down civilization itself to get at OrangeManBad and take him down. We have passed through the Overton window into Cloward-Piven on steroids.
Well, at least we can enjoy watching the people who rah-rah'ed for Cloward-Piven wake up one day and realize that they've become the targets.
As Inga observes, everyone takes the *shutdown* skeptics seriously. Even Democrat governors are attempting to ease lockdowns. Trump has set standards for reopening. The people we should not take seriously are those shouting “it's just a mild flu” or “it’s a hoax to get Trump”. We have a number of them here. They are not skeptics, they are denialists.
Americans were more likely to be "reckless idiots", or "crazy Eddies", than most of the human race in their time
Prudent and bold. What doesn't break us, may make us stronger.
Lurker21 said: "Americans are more unruly than Europeans, or Canadians or New Zealanders, but compared to the rest of the world we are pretty well behaved."
That is a good observation. Over the last 25 years of my career I hosted many new employees from all over the world at our offices in TN as our company expanded its global footprint. I never failed to get a comment from someone who was visiting America for the first time about how surprised they were at how orderly, courteous, and friendly everyone was. It was not what they had been led to believe.
https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/05/10/georgia-records-lowest-number-coronavirus-patients-month/
Andrew Cuomo has probably killed off the most vulnerable nursing home population with his insane policies but nursing homes still require extra precautions.
Coumo gets all the attention, but several governors killed off their nursing home populations in the exact same manner-
NY
NJ
PA
MI
CA
All had policies ordering nursing homes to accept infected coronavirus patients.
Michigan actually changed laws/directives/policies to hide what they were doing from the public.
To this day they will not provide nursing home data--one of the only States in the country.
https://nypost.com/2020/05/10/cuomo-was-wrong-to-order-nursing-homes-to-accept-coronavirus-patients/
" Really, how hard is this?"
You didn't mention not being able to go to work. You are safely oblivious to the sacrifices being made in this country by others who work for a living without guaranteed incomes and lackadaisical responsibilities that can be taken or dropped at will.
Ken B said...
As Inga observes, everyone takes the *shutdown* skeptics seriously.
Last week Ken called everyone who pushed back against complete shutdowns Covidiots, this week he pretends he took them seriously.
Meanwhile every scare tactic he used to justify himself turned out stupidly false. Nevertheless he will continue to criticize others without considering his own complete failure.
"Even Democrat governors are attempting to ease lockdowns"
You say that like they have a choice. They never had a choice to make this last long, becuase that's not possible without either starvation for rebellion. What they can and did do was extend it well beyond what was necessary and well beyond the goals they stated as justification when they did it. People trusted them and they lied. They broke those promises and should now be thrown out for the price we all will have to pay for years to come. There is nothing so common as politicians who promise to be careful with their power and then turn to tyranny immediately when they get it.
Good Lord. Another “women and minorities hardest hit” piece?
I’d give a fuck, but I’m all out.
Ken B there is no scientific basis for confining well people to “protect” vulnerable ones, and even if there were it has utterly failed to keep the old and infirm safe. Compounding failure with kids if the same is stupid, even if you mistakenly believe you’re doing “science.” Now that we are on the downslope of the famously flattened curve it is immoral to continue to harm the country by suppressing economic activity. If you can make a scientific case for an extended depression then make it.
isn't hcq a ready available and effective treatment, conor f still remains Sullivan's kramerica intern,
Ken B: "The people we should not take seriously are those shouting “it's just a mild flu” or “it’s a hoax to get Trump”. We have a number of them here. They are not skeptics, they are denialists."
As with the russian collusion hoax, its necessary for the covidiots to change their tunes as facts go against them.
Ken B said... They are not skeptics, they are denialists.
Little Kenny B is still waiting for the millions of WuFlu deaths he predicted, based on his lack of understanding of "death rates". Now that he is aligned with the Bedpan Commando, I expect the hysteria to be modified in order to blame us Deplorables.
Rick (re Ken B): "Meanwhile every scare tactic he used to justify himself turned out stupidly false. Nevertheless he will continue to criticize others without considering his own complete failure."
Quite so.
Irrefutable in fact.
Let the Great ReWriting of the 2020 Pandemic begin!
According to Ken B, it was all so very very exponential.....right up until the moment it wasnt.
Can you imagine how disappointing it has to be for Ken B to have been so emotionally invested in the possible deaths of millions and getting to virtue signal off that only to have it snatched away from him by reality and have it pointed out to him by those he called literal murderers?
hawkeyedjb: "Glenn Reynolds today: "...every issue in America is now addressed by media-shaming of the deplorables. This is tremendously destructive to the social fabric, but also apparently irresistible."
Along comes Inga to prove him right."
Wherever Inga appears, Ken B is never far behind.
The inability of people to admit their mistakes, which have been legion in this episode, is what will prevent us from learning from it and having a smarter strategy next time. We lost far more people than was necessary, and we destroyed far more of our financial lives and legal protections than was needed. It's been a lose / lose response in almost every place: those states with a bad problem and those without.
How about someone, anyone, taking a good long look at Cuomo’s policy of requiring NY nursing homes admit covid positive residents. A policy he reversed, finally, just yesterday. I did not realize that NY has the nations highest number of NH residents.
What the hell were these people thinking when they put that policy into place. Even now Cuomo refuses to accept the fact that he and the Health Dept decision was a critical error. I’d like to see some fair analysis of this policy, but it’s a Democrat politician so the media will refuse to cover it.
Even Democrat governors are attempting to ease lockdowns
Especially the ones up for re-election in November.
I think the Covidiots are those who think that the entire nation needs a New York City style shutdown. Anyone promoting anything close to a one size fits all program for all counties is truly an idiot.
Ken B: "The people we should not take seriously are those shouting “it's just a mild flu” or “it’s a hoax to get Trump”. We have a number of them here. They are not skeptics, they are denialists."
I don't what this guy's motives are but maybe it's just a desire to preen. Nobody said it's a "mild flu." The total deaths will resemble one of the severe flu epidemics, like 1957, when I had it, or 1968. The Cytokine Storm that kills younger cases is well known as an and point of sepsis and in severe flu.
The cause is well known and the treatment has been under discussion well before this epidemic.
There is even an effort to inflate the death toll by including "presumed" cases.
There are a few dopes here, too, who warn about opening the economy from the position of retirement or secure government incomes.
It's the preening self-righteousness of those who so cheerfully champion the idea of social isolation. ... I hope to tolerate them a bit more now that I understand why they bug me so.
@MadMan, I reached the same conclusion weeks ago, but it made me tolerate them less.
Ken B said, "The people we should not take seriously are those shouting 'it's just a mild flu' or 'it’s a hoax to get Trump'."
Agree with the second, but not with the first. For most people, it is not even as bad as a mild flu. These are the people the shutdowns have punished. Severely.
Dr Squid said, "...only a tiny fraction of our population has developed immunity..."
No guarantees, but very possibly more than you might think..
Who can forget how Ken B seamlessly migrated to calling his non-covidiot opponents racists and anti-semites.
Good times, good times for our History Rewrite Specialists.
Francisco D: "Little Kenny B is still waiting for the millions of WuFlu deaths he predicted, based on his lack of understanding of "death rates". Now that he is aligned with the Bedpan Commando, I expect the hysteria to be modified in order to blame us Deplorables."
Now that Ken B's allies are going Full GWBush/James Byrd Jr on Trump, how long will it be before Ken B and Inga claim Trump is actually hiding the bodies?
I lost trust and interest in The ATLANTIC some years ago.
Browndog - Where did you get your info re Michigan's nursing home policy? I've been trying to look into the issue without much success.
I think the (wiser) powers-that-be are sensing a ground swell that they can not stop. So, wisely,they are getting out of the way.
Lots more articles about the negatives of the shutdown. Fewer we're all gonna DIE!
My condolences to the states where everyone is already dead: Wisconsin where every voter was infected and Georgia where every living soul was infected.
Yes, there have been people at the extreme of "open everything up! And while you're at it, French kiss an elder!" But there have also been people at the other extreme - the "if we only save one life! Everyone into your perma-bubble and stay there for the next two years, until we have a 100% effective vaccine and have administered it to 6 billion people! And if there is no 100% effective vaccine, well, everyone just get used to this, because we can't ever come out again."
Both are straw men... and both are opinions actually held by some real people. My young adult son is in the "if we only save one life" camp. Drives us a little crazy - he's a baby financial analyst and should know better. His dad suggested that if he really believes there's no balance to be struck between CV19 lives lost and economic lives destroyed, he should be absolutely behind the idea of spreading the suffering - say, raise his income tax rate to 40% to help provide aid to those not lucky enough to have jobs that can be done from a bed with a laptop propped on a pillow.
"What?!" he exclaimed. "I can't afford that!" At which his dad cocked an eye at him and pressed his lips. Maybe it'll sink in, in time.
Ken B said...The people we should not take seriously are those shouting “it's just a mild flu” or “it’s a hoax to get Trump”. We have a number of them here. They are not skeptics, they are denialists.
Any time you get a large number of people together, you get the full range of personalities and opinions, the good, the bad, and the ugly. As a society, we make the best decisions when we hear every single one of them--even the kooks whose ideas are ludicrous. When we start removing people from the discussion, we eliminate possibilities and start missing opportunities to do better.
JAORE: "I think the (wiser) powers-that-be are sensing a ground swell that they can not stop. So, wisely,they are getting out of the way."
What's the old joke about the French "leader" who saw the mob heading somewhere unknown to him and declared that he had to get to the mob so he could lead it!
From Joel Kotkin's article:
"Ideologically, hygienic fascism is neither right nor left, nor is it simply a matter of taking necessary precautions. It is about imposing, over a long period of time, highly draconian regulations based on certain assumptions about public health. In large part, it regards science not so much as a search for knowledge but as revealed “truth” with definitive “answers.” Anyone opposed to the conventional stratagem, including recognized professionals, are largely banished as mindless Trumpistas, ignoramuses, or worse. Experience may show that debate and diversity of choices serve the public's health and general well-being better than unchallenged rule by a few, largely unaccountable individuals.
Even some non-Trumpians — like Elon Musk — see this as less an adherence to scientific standards than a “fascist” attempt to impose often impossible conditions on society and the economy, and without popular recourse. That these orders are often issued by the executive, and in the vast majority of states without legislative recourse, certainly follows an authoritarian pattern."
What new fang of Leviathan will be bared from this unseemly union of politics and fawning experts? This, it seems to me, is more of a threat even than the coming economic chaos. How avidly will those who think they rule us rush to tighten the hygiene ratchet in the future?
Some weeks ago, I realized that we are going to be living with this virus for the foreseeable future. We have some treatment options with varying degrees of success, but no vaccine. We have not overwhelmed our healthcare systems as had been anticipated. In Oregon, the plan to reopen had lots of stipulations around testing and tracing. To me, this seems to be a case of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. It will be weeks before our local mall (where over a thousand people are employed) will be able to open. Already, one large retailer (Nordstrom) has announced that they won't re-open. State-wide, we have about 150 people hospitalized with Covid-19 symptoms. This is an unprecedented abuse of power. Let people get back to work with masks and distancing, keep vulnerable populations isolated.
from a national review link, (yes I know)
https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/investigations/covid-19-spreads-in-sterling-heights-nursing-home-after-taking-in-positive-patients
here's another:
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-health-watch/coronavirus-ravages-nursing-homes-michigan-records-spotty-best
Ken B said...
As Inga observes, everyone takes the *shutdown* skeptics seriously. Even Democrat governors are attempting to ease lockdowns. Trump has set standards for reopening. The people we should not take seriously are those shouting “it's just a mild flu” or “it’s a hoax to get Trump”. We have a number of them here. They are not skeptics, they are denialists.
Ken B perfectly encapsulates the elite opinions and actions reacting to COVID-19.
They have been wrong about everything. Every single thing.
And they have been dishonest shitheads about it.
Ken B is now pretending he wasn't wrong about everything and he is pretending he hasn't been completely dishonest as well.
Nobody should ever listen to any of these people again after they have been so wrong.
Add to that that I'm exceedingly tired of headlines like this:
U.S. COVID-19 death toll predictions rise as people move around more
(We had ~750 CV19 deaths reported yesterday, but let's ignore that bit of encouraging info)
Inga said...
“If you are not comfortable going out in public, then don't. As for the "reckless idiots" that do go out and about, the virus will take care of them for you.”
People who are going out and behaving responsibly are not the reckless idiots. I’m perfectly comfortable leaving my home, I do it everyday unless it’s raining out. I go out to stores, wear a mask while inside and disinfect my hands as soon as I’m in the car. I’ve never washed my shoes, unless they were dirty. Take them off before you get inside your home. Keeps you from having to wash floors so often too. It’s gross wearing shoes in the house that you wear outdoors. When out walking, I maintain distance and don’t ever wear a mask. Really, how hard is this?
Another person who has been wrong about everything.
I will look forward to the lawsuits when families of dead nursing home occupants go after Cuomo and the administrations of New Jersey and New York.
They shut down schools where there was little to no risk of death and forced COVID-19 patients into nursing homes.
It is almost as if Cuomo wanted people to die and be ruined financially.
It’s nice that Friedersdorf pauses to take a breath, but once again, the country has been disadvantaged by polarization fed by the partisan mediaswine. What is needed is thoughtful observation by politicians, scientists, the mediaswine and the public and decisions based thereon.
The lockdown Governor of Oregon seems to have guessed right. Let’s wait and see. At least five governors have avoided lockdowns. Let’s wait and see. Lefty hero Cuomo is killing elderly New Yorkers and more. Let’s tell the truth so we can see.
Our children are at home losing education and immunity. Their parents are unemployed and broke. Hospitals are empty. Nursing home patients are dropping like flies. Small businesses are devastated. Rights are being trampled. Prisoners are being released. Birx doesn’t trust the CDC and neither do we.
Covid is an excuse for incompetence and we are surrounded by it. That doesn’t bother Democrats, but the rest of us are troubled.
What makes Friedersdorf's article so despicable is that he thinks we don't remember what was being written by those of his political persuasion just four weeks ago. On cue, you see the two commenters above try to rewrite their own history on this issue, clearly thinking we have also forgotten what it was they writing in these threads 4 weeks ago.
Here is a clue for those two commenters- you don't regain a reputation by lying about things to cover up.
From Joel Kotkin's article:
"Ideologically, hygienic fascism is neither right nor left, nor is it simply a matter of taking necessary precautions. It is about imposing, over a long period of time, highly draconian regulations based on certain assumptions about public health. In large part, it regards science not so much as a search for knowledge but as revealed “truth” with definitive “answers.” Anyone opposed to the conventional stratagem, including recognized professionals, are largely banished as mindless Trumpistas, ignoramuses, or worse. Experience may show that debate and diversity of choices serve the public's health and general well-being better than unchallenged rule by a few, largely unaccountable individuals.
Even some non-Trumpians — like Elon Musk — see this as less an adherence to scientific standards than a “fascist” attempt to impose often impossible conditions on society and the economy, and without popular recourse. That these orders are often issued by the executive, and in the vast majority of states without legislative recourse, certainly follows an authoritarian pattern."
What new fang of Leviathan will be bared from this unseemly union of politics and fawning experts? This, it seems to me, is more of a threat even than the coming economic chaos. How avidly will those who think they rule us rush to tighten the hygiene ratchet in the future?
No Rick. I did, and still do, call those who call the lockdown useless covidiots, and those who say the virus is not a threat, or just a plot, or say that the only thing hurting businesses are lockdown orders I still call covidiots. They make it difficult to have a sensible discussion of what an or should be done.
I count you among them.
Covidiot denialists are very prominent here.
Tim maguire
The only people here calling for shutting anyone up are the denialists. ST and Drago for instance call for banning Inga regularly.
I for one say say let the denialists rant. Just recognize they make no pertinent contribution to the discussion.
Michael K spouts untruths again. Lots of people on this blog said it’s just a mild flu. At least two said it’s not even that.
You are so sloppy with facts you could be Chuck Todd. Shameful for someone with your education.
I thought The Atlantic article was unexpectedly good. It's rare to see anyone in public life writing about uncertainty and how to deal with it. A new book on the subject is well worth reading for those interested: John Kay and Mervyn King, Radical Uncertainty: Decision Making Beyond the Numbers (Norton 2020). Unfortunately, no politician on either side is willing to talk about uncertainty. They all pretend that they have all the answers.
Judge us by our good intentions and not by the unintended consequences of our actions.
Yes, there have been people at the extreme of "open everything up! And while you're at it, French kiss an elder!"
Didn’t Italy tell people to “hug a Chinaman” back in early February? And wasn’t Nancy Pelosi in late February urging people to go visit Chinatown? How’d that work out?
I can remember when the reason we shutdown was to level the curve...but the goalposts kept getting moved.
Trump should shut down the government. That’s the only way to get the press to agitate for “return to normal.” Remember how the media goes apeshit over every temporary government shutdown but has no urgency to restart the actual functioning economy when it’s down?
I advocated this from the beginning. Obviously, Trump can't shutdown the entire government, but there is a lot of it that is non-essential. Shut that part down, and the lets see how long the bureaucrats would want the lockdown to continue. It's not just a smart political move, but it is the right economic move. As noted, the economy is rekt and thus tax revenue will decline. Those non-essential government jobs will have to be cut, because money to pay them will never come. That's true at the federal level through the state and down to the municipal level. Once that pain is realized within the government, they'll be begging us to return to work.
You are so sloppy with facts you could be Chuck Todd. Shameful for someone with your education.
Not unexpected for someone with your lack of education. Go away and haunt someplace else.
You and Inga could do a Jeopardy parody.
Ken B: "Tim maguire
The only people here calling for shutting anyone up are the denialists. ST and Drago for instance call for banning Inga regularly."
Ken B lying again. Like his imaginary 2.2 million corpses that he desperately craved.
I have never once called for Ingas banning.
I have on multiple occasions made note of the fact that she was banned by Althouse for all the obvious reasons.
But do go on laddie. You're doing....."exponentially" better....
dreams: "I can remember when the reason we shutdown was to level the curve...but the goalposts kept getting moved."
Ken B and his lefty allies became quite enamored of their Virtue Signalling "Precious"
Chinese Communist Party
Tech giants Twitter and Facebook and Google and Youtube
Democrats
People who hate Trump no matter what
World Health Organization
Experts
Ken B
ALL above agree that shutdown is the only solution and Chinese Lung March Flu is going to kill us all and the only solution is to curl up and hide. All the following agree that there are multiple ways to address public health that do not involve ushering in a 2nd Great Depression foremost among them isolating the SICK and letting the HEALTHY run things as usual:
Epidemiologists not working for DNC, WHO or UN
Doctors
History
Common Sense
There has never been an epidemic foiled by locking up healthy people and putting the sick into nursing homes. This is not going to be an exception to 100% of recorded history, Ken's stamping feet clenched fists and queer haranguing notwithstanding.
Ken B said...
They make it difficult to have a sensible discussion of what an or should be done.
People who distort reality make it impossible to have a sensible discussion, which is why people are not willing to forget you did exactly that.
I count you among them.
Reality has never been a factor in your assertions so it would never occur to me to care what you think. Your preening reminds me of the lawyer scene in My Cousin Vinny, about 2:30.
My Cousin Vinny
evers will be reopening some businesses 5 persons at a time, with significant restrictions,
It must be noted Ken B was calling the Open It Up crowd literal murders right up until.....democrats began saying it.
And Ken B flipped like a light switch.
So, as Inga and ARM and Howard have learned, you can do or say anything you like and if you want Ken B to tag along with you just be sure he understands you are a lefty democrat.
Ken B said...
Michael K spouts untruths again. Lots of people on this blog said it’s just a mild flu. At least two said it’s not even that.
You are so sloppy with facts you could be Chuck Todd. Shameful for someone with your education.
Some people said it's an especially bad flu, not a mild flu. But Ken is so wrapped in his narrative he can't even understand language. Instead he 'understands' whatever is necessary to maintain his narrative.
More inevitable news that Ken B swore would never and could never happen as he called non-Covidiots murderers and racists:
Phil Kerpin twitter from today:
"Potential global inflection point. *BBC* now says the models were garbage, massively overstated risk and caused panic. Lockdown deaths soon on pace to exceed virus deaths in UK. Watch the whole thing."
Aaron Ginn
"BBC investigates COVID modeling and its impact on public policy in the UK.
Warning: it's depressing. Lockdowns were driven by relying too much on theoretical modeling, ignoring data on the ground, and news+social media wanting a lockdown."
https://t.co/E1ZTuDcS0E
Of course, by merely posting that Ken B will accuse me of advocating racist mass murder genocide because it makes him feel better about himself.
buwaya said...Orders have come down to disengage on this front, to permit the likes of California Governor Newsom make strategic withrawals without losing face.
--
James Todaro, MD
@JamesTodaroMD
·
May 9
Gov Newsom’s criteria to reopen counties in California:
- No more than 1 COVID-19 case per 10,000 in the past 14 days.
- No COVID-19 death in the past 14 days.
About 95% of CA fails the above.
Just for reference, LA county has ~200+ deaths every 14 days from Flu/pneumonia.
--
I have a friend in L.A. who claims he finds the pressers informative.
When I suggested the metric of 14 days/zero deaths in a county was ridiculous he had to look it up himself.
http://dashboard.publichealth.lacounty.gov/covid19_surveillance_dashboard/
Douglas said...
I thought The Atlantic article was unexpectedly good.
Yes, especially for one by Connor Friedsdorf. I can only imagine that it came about one morning as a was splashing some eau de toilette on his face and the seat fell down; hitting him on the head and the article is a product of the resulting epiphany!
“Hygienic fascism” is misnamed, “hygienic communism” would be closer to the mark. A fine example would be Mao ordering the extermination of sparrows in 1958, the next year insects ate the crops.
Maybe he should be "Karen B, like the CNN goofs.
Sound familiar? The same people who say that two million are going to die, no now it's 100,000, wait now it's 70,000...
The same people who told us masks were useless, and also it was critical to save masks for medical personnel because they save lives, and also now that masks are critical for everyone and now mandated by law...
The same people who say we have to lock down just until we "flatten the curve" and then, when the curve has been flattened, announce we must stay in lock down until we have a vaccine...
are accusing other people of not being clear and offering "mixed messages."
Awwwww....
Inga said...
“Inga- there is no state that is reopening that isn't doing it in a phased manner.”
Because they aren’t giving in to the demands of those gun toting yellers out protesting, demanding everyone just go back to pre pandemic, like reckless fools.
5/11/20, 7:48 AM
--
Inga said...
There were quite a few bearded beer bellied older protestors there. Prime candidates for the ICU and a brand spanking newly bleached ventilator in about two weeks.
4/24/20, 5:29 PM
WHA stats
Yancey
If there were a just god you would burst into flames using the word “despicable.”
" Lots of people on this blog said it’s just a mild flu. At least two said it’s not even that.".
IDK. What would you call a flu-like disease that killed less than half as many people as the flu of 2018, becuase that's what happened here in Nevada. 3 dead in the last 3 days and zero yesterday. We performed a record 3,237 tests on Saturday of mostly people with symptoms. 70 positives. That's 2% of people with symptoms, which means 98% caught something even with the lock down, but it wasn't this terrible highly contagious super-bug scaring the hell out of everyone.
Instead of plunging head first and demanding that everyone else does too,
you didn't object to entering lockdown that way.
Since the virus is spread by aerosol transmission, I suggest we all hold our breath until a vaccine is developed. According to Science, we'll all be safe from the virus if we don't let any air into our lungs. You aren't opposed to Science, are you?
Sebastian said: Well, the very fact that we know who the "vulnerable" are tells us the best way forward is not to to coerce the invulnerable into doing things that harm them and the whole economy without producing any benefit for the "vulnerable."
OH but they've got a whole new goalpost for this argument! You see, a lot of non-elderly people don't even KNOW that they have underlying conditions that make them more vulnerable--so we can't really protect all the vulnerable. Seriously, this is what several authorities have been saying. Therefore, their fucked-up plan is to have the world broken for the next 20-100 years by forbidding the 99% of people who will not get seriously ill from carrying on with their lives and thereby saving the world from becoming broken.
Thurston County (WA). Population 280K. Been dealing with this crap since the end of January and shut down since the middle of March.
123 confirmed cases. One death.
One.
We're still shut down.
But how DARE I be a skeptic about the shutdown? I must want people to die!!!
Fuck you people.
No Rick. Some people did indeed say it was just a mild flu, repeatedly. Even bagoh20 today at 1:41 on this thread.
Ken B: "Yancey If there were a just god you would burst into flames using the word “despicable.”'
Note: Ken B is a big fan of both Inga and Howard.
Presented for context......
Jim at: "Thurston County (WA). Population 280K. Been dealing with this crap since the end of January and shut down since the middle of March.
123 confirmed cases. One death.
One.
We're still shut down. But how DARE I be a skeptic about the shutdown? I must want people to die!!!"
Jim at, there is a very simple solution to your problem. Just get any far left/radical/moron dem to also agree with your position and you will never have to worry about any criticism from Ken B.
But remember, your comment MUST be seen as in alignment with at least one prominent far left dem to keep Ken B off your back.
Ken B and his lefty allies became quite enamored of their Virtue Signalling "Precious"
I suggest that hereafter we dub this annoying troll, "Karen B"
" Even bagoh20 today at 1:41 on this thread."
Actually, Karen, I asked you what you would call a disease that kills less than half of what the flu has.
"The Coronavirus Was an Emergency Until Trump Found Out Who Was Dying"
That is completely laughable.
I contend Trump and Fauci were excessively influenced by their NYC roots.
Between that and shit modeling, Trump backed away from his instinct to treat this regionally.
More Karen B Lies:
Karen B: "No Rick. Some people did indeed say it was just a mild flu, repeatedly. Even bagoh20 today at 1:41 on this thread."
So, lets search bagoh20's 1:41 comment for the phrase "just a mild flu" or even "mild flu", shall we? (we shall....)
bagoh20 @1:41: "IDK. What would you call a flu-like disease that killed less than half as many people as the flu of 2018, becuase that's what happened here in Nevada. 3 dead in the last 3 days and zero yesterday. We performed a record 3,237 tests on Saturday of mostly people with symptoms. 70 positives. That's 2% of people with symptoms, which means 98% caught something even with the lock down, but it wasn't this terrible highly contagious super-bug scaring the hell out of everyone."
Phrases not found: "just a mild flu", "mild flu"
What did we find? bagoh20 presenting the official statistics for the state of Nevada to date.
According to Karen B, this makes bagoh20 a likely mass murderer.
Recall waaaaaaaaay back when after Karen B and Inga had offered up a non-contextual comment that "3%" of some group had died in NY hospitals.
My request: "Tell me more about this 3%"
Thats all it took for Karen B and Inga to completely meltdown and accuse me of wanting these people to die and of being a racist.
That's all it took.
If that seems to you to be a rather unhinged and somewhat insane response to a simple request, well. Then you've pretty much summed up Karen B and Inga's performance during this entire episode caused by ARM's Beloved and Heroic People's Republic Of China ChiComs.
"123 confirmed cases. One death.
One.
We're still shut down."
I don't know how anyone, even Mayor Karen of Karenville, can justify that. If a corporation did that to thousands of people, they would be justifiably sued into oblivion.
Bagoh20's exact quote:
it wasn't this terrible highly contagious super-bug scaring the hell out of everyone.
Ken's mischaracterization:
Ken B said...
No Rick. Some people did indeed say it was just a mild flu, repeatedly. Even bagoh20 today at 1:41 on this thread.
Sure, [not a "highly contagious super-bug"] can only mean "mild flu". It can't mean bad flu or something worse than flu but still not the plague. This is why Ken can't participate in reasonable discussions, he mischaracterizes everything anyone else says so he can continue to believe his prior erroneous assertions.
I see one faction on this subject resorting to facts and data, and the other just making shit up and arguing over semantics. Not very sciency. Not helping.
Go with "syndromic". No triggering words or pesky distinctions. There.
Drago said…"Recall waaaaaaaaay back when after Karen B and Inga had offered up a non-contextual comment that "3%" of some group had died in NY hospitals.
My request: "Tell me more about this 3%"
Thats all it took for Karen B and Inga to completely meltdown and accuse me of wanting these people to die and of being a racist.
That's all it took."
All it took for me to be tagged as a denialist was to question his interpretation of a log curve.
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a link here, but I thought this article offers some pretty good perspective.
American Thinker
The author is a doc, I think
“I suggest that hereafter we dub this annoying troll, "Karen B"”
I suggest henceforth we dub Michael K as “Senile Coot”.
“Drago said…"Recall waaaaaaaaay back when after Karen B and Inga had offered up a non-contextual comment that "3%" of some group had died in NY hospitals.
My request: "Tell me more about this 3%"
Thats all it took for Karen B and Inga to completely meltdown and accuse me of wanting these people to die and of being a racist.
That's all it took."”
Drago is similar to Michael K, they can hand it out but they can’t take it. Two little fragile snowflakes.
And why not a KarenInga ?
“...he mischaracterizes everything anyone else says so he can continue to believe his prior erroneous assertions.’
Pot...kettle.
Inga the Collusionist: "Drago is similar to Michael K, they can hand it out but they can’t take it. Two little fragile snowflakes."
Inga is lying again, like her mini-me Karen B.
I have never complained about any insult tossed my way. Ever.
Even when Inga the conspiracy theorist called me a treasonous traitor for having voted for Trump. Which really only made me laugh.
The true Karens are the people here who want to force their reckless foolishness on others and cry and stomp their little feet because they can’t have what they want....riiiiiight now! “I waaaaant my ice cream right now!”
Inga The Not Very Creative Liar and Conspiracist: "The true Karens are the people here who want to force their reckless foolishness on others and cry and stomp their little feet because they can’t have what they want....riiiiiight now! “I waaaaant my ice cream right now!”
Inga the Russian Collusion lunatic now seeks to completely rewrite history just as her mini-me Karen B has been engaged in.
I. Did. Not. See. That. Coming.
Next up for Inga: It was actually the Trump voters who were pushing the collusion conspiracy!
Why not just go all the way with lefty history revision?
Drago is like Marsha Marsha Marsha with his Russia Russia Russia, LOL.
So predictable.
Speaking of reckless foolishness, it only took Inga several months to actually make note of democrat policies which MANDATED shoving infected elderly back into nursing and retirement homes, likely leading to the relatively large death rates in those facilities in dem states.
Even more amazing, Howard popped in just yeaterday to blame Trump for those dem governor policies and results.
What a team Inga, Howard and Karen B make.
And now that they arent getting the numbers of deaths they crave and their 4 year collusion hoax has collapsed, they are not taking it very well at all.
And something else totally predictable. Drago lies, every single day.
Yawn, nothing new in this age of pandemic with Drago.
Ken B is a cvnt.
Inga: "Drago is like Marsha Marsha Marsha with his Russia Russia Russia, LOL.
So predictable."
Yes. 4 years+ of your lies is naturally something you'd like to ignore.
Dont worry. There are many who will continue to remind you of your Avenatti like behavior...and rightfully so.
I even predicted at one point this would happen- the Lockdown Dummies would beat a retreat as soon as it was clear that a million Americans wouldn't be dying from COVID-19 and claim all they were advocating was a short shutdown that allowed us to learn more about the disease so that we could reopen in the first week of May.
All you have ever had to do was compare the states that locked down vs those that didn't, and compare those who locked down earlier vs those that locked down later. The signal that lockdowns had any effect whatsoever doesn't exist in any of the data for cases or deaths. If we had just followed my advice I offered in these threads 7 weeks ago, we could have cut the total dead by at least half, and probably more. All that was ever needed was to isolate seriously ill (as in needing hospitalization) COVID-19 sufferers in their separate facilities, and to close access to the nursing homes, even if that means isolating the staff with the residents (you could have paid them extra to take this job on).
Russian Collusion Truther Inga: "And something else totally predictable. Drago lies, every single day."
And now the BBC breaks ranks and raises the undeniable inevitability of the Covidiot global lockdown: there will be far more deaths following the advice of Inga The Reaper and Karen B minions.
We know US media is completely in the pocket of the ChiComs so we will see what other European news organizations begin to report honestly on the mortality rates of those who died from the massive economic over reaction.
This one size fits all shutdown was literally the most idiotic policy ever.
“I even predicted at one point this would happen- the Lockdown Dummies would beat a retreat as soon as it was clear that a million Americans wouldn't be dying from COVID-19 and claim all they were advocating was a short shutdown that allowed us to learn more about the disease so that we could reopen in the first week of May.”
Hahaha, oh boy. You also predicted no more than 7,500 people would die in total in the US.
The lefties have already moved the goal posts to the moon based on the media questions today: when will we be able to test everyone every day in order to reopen?
But thats what the lefties need to try and establish a political basis for their sham-peachment III effort.
Blogger Inga said...
The true Karens are the people here who want to force their reckless foolishness on others and cry and stomp their little feet because they can’t have what they want....riiiiiight now! “I waaaaant my ice cream right now!”
--
Outdoing yourself today.
I guess you're disappointed those "beer bellied older protestors" didn't wind up on ventilators.
But hey..keep it locked down. Inga has a lung condition and guaranteed income.
"It can't mean bad flu or something worse than flu but still not the plague. "
-- This is my main contention. We were warned about Captain Trips, but we got... something bad, but not anywhere near that bad.
: "Drago is like Marsha Marsha Marsha with his Russia Russia Russia, LOL.
So predictable."
What do you expect, Inga? For years, you were going to rub our faces in Trump's frog march from the White House. And do you even acknowledge that it was all a pack of lies? No, you pretend like it didn't happen.
“But hey..keep it locked down. Inga has a lung condition and guaranteed income.”
I’ve never advocated for keeping things locked down forever. Maybe you could provide a quote of mine where I’ve said any such thing. I’m ready to have things open up and I hope people act responsibly.
As for the beer bellied bearded protestors, they are the kind of older obese humans with co morbidities that put them at higher risk of having a worse outcome with Covid. We all know that by now.
OM: "What do you expect, Inga? For years, you were going to rub our faces in Trump's frog march from the White House. And do you even acknowledge that it was all a pack of lies?"
OM, I dont think you understand.
Inga still believes in all the hoax elements. Every single one.
Carter Page, Flynn, Papadopolous, Manafort--all russian spies.
Hoax dossier? Inga is still on board.
Hookers peeing on beds in Moscow? She believes.
Trump colluded? Yep.
Trump laundered russki cash? Yep.
And on and on and on.
Inga cannot deny what she still passionately believes.
Collusionist Truther Inga: "As for the beer bellied bearded protestors, they are the kind of older obese humans with co morbidities that put them at higher risk of having a worse outcome with Covid. We all know that by now."
And yet your beloved dems shoved infected people into the heart of the vulnerable population for months and months up to....today: nursing and retirement homes.
I mean, who could possibly have guessed that shoving infected people into nursing homes would be a problem?
Meanwhile, the Desperate Death Cultists (a category that coincidently overlaps well with russia collusion cultists) spend hours and hours criticizing people standing around outside but can barely generate the energy for even tepid criticism of the killer dem policies.
"Inga still believes in all the hoax elements. Every single one."
I guess we have to assume so, until she says otherwise.
OTOH, her silence on the topic, when it was her obsession for years, indicates she knows she was had and is too embarrassed to address it.
So I don't know.
Cuomo's giant mistake that killed, what, hundreds?, is the sort that kills your chances for higher office. He might get to run at the state level for as long as term limits allow so long as he stays a Democrat, but, he's never going any higher in a just world.
Inga,
I queried you many times for your thoughts on metrics that would satisfy you.
crickets..every time.
Original Mike: "I guess we have to assume so, until she says otherwise."
You wanna know what Inga called the declassified testimony of her beloved democrat obama staffers?
She called them a conspiracy theory!!
LOL
Howard doesn't even believe they exist!
I’m still waiting for the government experts, the ones in CDC and NIH to come out and say “By the way, if you’re not taking 1000 IU of Vitamin D daily, start today. And next doctor visit ask to have your Vitamin D blood level checked if your doctor fails to recommend it.”
Won’t keep you from getting it, but since lower levels strongly correlate with ICU visits and deaths from Covid, then everyone should be dosing themselves with a proven safe dose. Safer than shutting down the economy.
And in looking at various research on D, it appears it’s useful in fighting ANY URI. But yet the official position of most professional medical groups and government agencies supposedly researching things to improve our health is that OTC supplements are a total waste of money. Unless, of course, taken under strict medical supervision.
I see nothing has changed in this Inga thread.
Stupidity might be contagious so I will leave you to your delusions.
Inga said...
“...he mischaracterizes everything anyone else says so he can continue to believe his prior erroneous assertions.’
Pot...kettle.
The key difference is that I point to facts and you opine based on your fantasies.
Inga said...
“But hey..keep it locked down. Inga has a lung condition and guaranteed income.”
I’ve never advocated for keeping things locked down forever
Notice what she denies was not alleged. With her everything is dishonest.
All the Lockdown Loonies specifically wrote that the lockdowns would have to continue until a vaccine was developed and produced for widespread use, or the virus died out, or effective test and trace was implemented. None of those were ever going to happen before the end of the year- it was sheer lunacy on stilts, and I wrote as much here many times.
Yes, Inga, I misguessed the number of dead, but I made that prediction when the lowest estimate of dead was 2 million Americans. I am much closer to being correct than all the experts that parroted that 2 million dead number. I also gave the state officials in blue states far too much credit for actual competence in keeping people from catching the virus in hospitals and nursing homes, so, my bad.
A relative resides in a nursing home in Northern Virginia that has about 100 residents. 28 of them have been diagnosed with Covid-19, and some number of staff as well, but I don't know the latter number. I don't think any of the residents were forced admissions of people known to have Covid.
The staff is taking lots of precautions, no visitors have been allowed in since mid-March, and residents are now confined to their rooms. But the disease is there and spreading, and it is not stopping. It is contagious enough that I don't see how they can prevent everyone from being exposed. For all I know, everyone living there has already been exposed. They're only testing people who are symptomatic, so it's quite possible that over half of the residents have been infected, with half of them asymptomatic and/or recovered.
Once the truly vulnerable population (nursing home residents) has already been exposed, social distancing and shutdowns become pointless. In New York and New Jersey, that's been true for some time now. Northern Virginia seems to be near that point now.
Tracing is virtually impossible at this point if asymptomatic people who test positive for the antibodies were or are contagious. Antibody testing in Germany, Korea, Japan, CA, NY and MA (Boston) and other places has shown the infected without symptoms to be at least scores of times higher than treated cases. So millions of people. Tracing is a pipe dream in that circumstance.
I was able to get tested for antibodies here in Tucson last week, a blood draw, not a finger prick. Results came back negative today. Too bad, I was hoping it would be positive.
Post a Comment