From "‘The Plot Against America’ Imagines the Rise of an Intolerant Demagogue/David Simon has translated Philip Roth’s 2004 alternate history novel into an HBO mini-series, Simon’s first literary adaptation" by Charles McGrath (NYT).
From McGrath's 2018 interview with Roth:
ROTH: However prescient “The Plot Against America” might seem to you, there is surely one enormous difference between the political circumstances I invent there for the U.S. in 1940 and the political calamity that dismays us so today. It’s the difference in stature between a President Lindbergh and a President Trump. Charles Lindbergh, in life as in my novel, may have been a genuine racist and an anti-Semite and a white supremacist sympathetic to Fascism, but he was also — because of the extraordinary feat of his solo trans-Atlantic flight at the age of 25 — an authentic American hero 13 years before I have him winning the presidency. Lindbergh, historically, was the courageous young pilot who in 1927, for the first time, flew nonstop across the Atlantic, from Long Island to Paris. He did it in 33.5 hours in a single-seat, single-engine monoplane, thus making him a kind of 20th-century Leif Ericson, an aeronautical Magellan, one of the earliest beacons of the age of aviation. Trump, by comparison, is a massive fraud, the evil sum of his deficiencies, devoid of everything but the hollow ideology of a megalomaniac.
158 comments:
David Simon created "The Wire." That alone warrants life-long props. But he has been a walking Twitter screed for years now, and has no objective basis for anything political as long as Trump remains president. He's basically Twitter Zero for TDS.
Something else not to watch on the vast cultural wasteland. I’ve read a bit of Roth and I was always struck by his pervasive envy.
Gag!
The Left needs to move one. Just because Trump speaks the language of average people doesn’t mean he’s a demagogue. At least Trump can speak English, unlike Biden in a post below.
My but so many celebrities and old guard intellectuals made themselves look so stupid over Trump!
Our "creative class" has no imagination.
GatorNavy said...Something else not to watch on the vast cultural wasteland. I’ve read a bit of Roth and I was always struck by his pervasive envy.
Penis ennui: Bored with having a dick.
Lewis:
But you will LOVE my “Frankenstein, Part II.”
“Trump is a fraud.” They keep saying this. I’ve read it here. I understand Trump steaks and Trump wine and Trump university were failed brand extensions, but he’s had demonstrable success in real estate development. How is Trump the man “a fraud?”
Trump, by comparison, is a massive fraud, the evil sum of his deficiencies, devoid of everything but the hollow ideology of a megalomaniac.
Why can't they just say I don't like Trump's ideas?
Probably because they would then be expected to engage in a debate, which they seem incapable of. It's so much easier just to pretend that Trump (or any Rightwinger) is so evil that they aren't worthy of debate.
"Charles Lindbergh, in life as in my novel, may have been a genuine racist and an anti-Semite and a white supremacist sympathetic to Fascism,"
Charles Lindberg was a great man, an was not an antisemite and certainly was no more "racist" than anyone of his time and place.. Of course, who knows what "Racist" means. But look at these insult labels, I count 4 in one sentence! One could just as easily write, "Phillip Roth, a communist sympathizer, racist, Jewish supremacist, and anti-Christian writer, blah blah" That he applies the same labels to Trump just shows how his judgments of anyone on the Right of Obama are completely worthless.
Portnoys gotta complain.
In Roth's case, the animus might actually be simple pussy envy.
Pussy envy -- has anyone seriously proposed that as the underlying reason for TDS? It works for his male detractors (envy) and his female detractors (jealousy).
"The Plot Against America". Promoting socialism? Nah.
I smell gas. Does anybody else smell gas?
Charles Lindbergh was unsympathetic to Jews. He disliked antisemitism but thought the "Jews, British, and the FDR administration" for their own reasons were trying to get the USA into World War II. He said so publicly and was viciously attacked for it. What's hilarious, is that after the war, people in all three groups boasted how they had gotten the USA into WW II. FDR and his cabinet were all working with the British Government to get us in. FDR even let the British Secret Service work on American soil and subvert/attack any anti-interventionist groups.
“openly expresses admiration for a foreign dictator.”
See also, “the art of saying ‘nice doggie’ until you can find a rock.”
Loony writers are as common as flies. I've never read anything by Roth, was he any good?
Ah....
I love the smell of Trump Derangement Syndrome in the morning.
Smells like.....victory.
"the demonization of others"
Ah, yes, the "basket of deplorables"--that's what his book was about, right?
Or Trump derangement derangement derangement syndrome. Depending on where you are in the I’m rubber and you’re glue game that certain commenters have been playing.
So we're back to “literally Hitler”. Shorter Roth: An anti Semitic white supremacist is a hero compared to Donald Trump.
So when Obama said, "China, they do things right". What did that mean?
So it is ok to be a "genuine racist and an anti-Semite and a white supremacist sympathetic to Fascism" so long as you are a "courageous young pilot who in 1927, for the first time, flew nonstop across the Atlantic, from Long Island to Paris.". Everyone else need be on their best behavior and have only the right thoughts and ideas.
I enjoyed Goodbye Columbus and Portnoy's Complaint, but found the rest of his stuff pretty mediocre. The "Plot Against America" was an absurd rewrite of American History. Historical Fantasy has to be grounded in historical reality. There has to be some sort of plausibility. Which "Plot against America" didn't have. At all.
The Jewish John Updike.
So Roth would have approved of the retconning of his novel into an anti-Trump jeremiad? Well, I guess it's cool then.
"Trump, by comparison, is a massive fraud, the evil sum of his deficiencies, devoid of everything but the hollow ideology of a megalomaniac."
In a sane world these people would be institutionalized.
Violent crime went down in Baltimore. Then it went back up.
There’s a story there. A good one. But David Simon can’t tell it. Because it goes against his political beliefs.
"Let's party like it's 2017!"
Just like Inga and that plane disembarking video, Trump's opponents all of a sudden are going retro.
I read and hated "The Plot Against America". Such a stupid, imaginary counterfactual. Lindbergh was a great, heroic American, who simply saw the Soviet threat as bigger than the Nazi threat; thought it would be wiser to let those two totalitarian regimes fight each other.
He may have been wrong. He may have understated the Nazi threat. But so what? He wasn't a power broker in the US, but just an publi figure.
Stupid book.
Philip Roth had no children. Trump has 5.
Watching the Philip Roths of Hollywood demand that we applaud their undying persecution complexes, all while excoriating white Americans as untermenschen, is becoming extremely tiring. They're literally carrying the flame of Naziism into the future, despite the fact it should be as dead as German Alsace-Lorraine.
But at this point I'm content to let the rats shriek as their ship sinks. I can understand the notion of making fun of Trump- or Hitler, for that matter- having a history that the smart set ignores or reviles. But if they're still saying it even after USMCA is signed, the Autobahn goes up, and France is under the jackboot, that just shows they're desperate to make the enemy look as pathetic as they are. It's still dumb, because any one of Trump's massive urban buildings is worth more than the entire legacy of The Wire- which is a show that could easily be solved by Duterte-ing Baltimore. Oh dear, there's that admiration for "dictators."
*whistles Tomorrow Belongs to Me, written by a gay Jewish man*
It's funny to read people telling us we should agree with there view and not support Trump because Trump is the demagogue. I tend to support self-awareness.
demagogic president who openly expresses admiration for a foreign dictator;
That must be the bowing to "King" Abdullah.
a surge of right-wing nationalism and isolationism;
That must be the Tea Party.
polarization; false narratives;
Those things began shortly after the invention of ideas; and of stortytelling.
xenophobia and the demonization of others."
..and don't forget blatant racism, all included in the Dear Colleague screed.
But why bring up Obama now that the horror has passed?
Speaking of Lindbergh ... where's Farmer? In sympathy quarantine with the mullahs? Out door to door for Bernie?
A few months before he died, in 2018, one of FDR's descendants told McGrath in an interview that he never intended WWII to be about Trump, but given the Furher never allowed a lethal virus to come into his country from China during his rule to kill off millions of his countrymen, it only served to prove that Trump was indeed worse than Hitler.
mccullough said...
Philip Roth had no children. Trump has 5
To paraphrase john maynard keynes:
"In the long run some of us are dead "
John Henry
"The Plot Against America" was okay as alternate history fiction but I thought the author's paranoia really got in the way of the storytelling.
When people tell you what they are, believe them. Mr. Roth like every other ignorant, lib tyrant wanna be should just kiss my ass and bugger off. Each and everyone of you ignorant twits have made a huge cock up of world affairs. In a different time you would all be swinging in the breeze, by your neck until dead and deservedly left so that scavengers and vermin could pick at your entrails. So, again ,bugger off.
Neil young & Emmylou Harris - "DOG NAMED KING ABDULLAH
If Corruptocarts don't get their way from the electorate - it's always some sort of decline into fill in the blank end-times.
PAA was originally an anti-bush screed/ allegory.
at one point in the book, The narrator's dad launches into a ludicrous anti Coolidge rant. They could just as easily been about Nixon or Reagan.
I doubt Simon had to do any great amount of rewriting to turn this into an anti Trump work. It's really just anti-gop and anti-traditional America.
"false narratives... demonization of others."
Come again?
Donald Trump is a kind of mirror. What you see when you look at Trump can tell you more about yourself than it does about Trump. Some people really don't like what they see reflected there.
I have not read either.
What is different between
It Can't Happen Here and
Plot Against America.
"JPS said...
“openly expresses admiration for a foreign dictator.”"
You mean, like admiring Stalin or praising Castro and Maduro?
Dwight Morrow, the father of Lindbergh's wife, Ann, was a college classmate of Coolidge's.
Lindbergh got convinced of the superiority of dictators at a time when FDR's administration was very fond of them, too. Mussolini was so well liked in Hollywood that he was in a movie with Lionel Barrymore.
Lindbergh was wrong and, after the war began, tried to volunteer but was banned by Roosevelt. He still managed to contribute by teaching pilots in the Pacific, far from Roosevelt's view, how to increase range in P 38s and P 51s by running the engines lean on fuel.
Pat Buchanan thinks we were wrong to enter WWII but he is probably right about WWI. I don't think appeasing Japan would have worked.
Southerner would not have
Voted for a swedish isolationist
They were very pro war. And how were his feeing diffent than say fdr on different groups.fdr did not give help to hoover to feed polish catholics and jews.immigration sucked too. The novel was full of crap
You listen to actual promises being made by every democrat on stage and they are absolutely insane.
But Trump is the scary fascist?
Mainstream Democrat promises:
- Promise to end all energy production in the US, and send energy CEOs to jail.
- Promise that illegal entrants get free tax payer funded health care.
- Promise to end all private health insurance.
- Promise to force us all onto a government run health care scheme.
- New Green Deal that will destroy our economy and countless jobs, but so what?
- Tax hikes for the middle class + (no tax hikes for their billionaire class all while they rail against billionaires)
- Free this and free that and the bogus promise for reparations - which is a lie and will never happen and the left know it, but they will continue to dangle that promise forever.
- Promises that the Government will take over of whole industries - and they still don't understand what fascism means.
Ken B: So we're back to “literally Hitler”. Shorter Roth: An anti Semitic white supremacist is a hero compared to Donald Trump.
stevew: So it is ok to be a "genuine racist and an anti-Semite and a white supremacist sympathetic to Fascism" so long as you are a "courageous young pilot who in 1927, for the first time, flew nonstop across the Atlantic, from Long Island to Paris.". Everyone else need be on their best behavior and have only the right thoughts and ideas.
Being a successful propagandist consists in large part of getting your critics to accept all your bullshit premises, while quibbling with this or that particular assertion.
"Alas, the legend, or rather antilegend, has become printable fact. The [America First] committee, and Lindbergh in particular, are routinely smeared with the grossest lies: see, for an egregious example, Philip Roth's disgusting and defamatory novel The Plot Against America."
Neither Roth nor Simon can be credited with being originators of this particular propa...er, view of history. But since millions of people get all their "history" from television and movies, they've apparently been successful as its upholders and defenders.
For the record, in the years before Pearl Hatbor, the vast majority of Americans were "isolationist". The better word is "non-interventionist".
Why?
Well, after the 1939 Hitler-Stalin pact (erroneously called "The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact"), the Leftwing lackeys in the USA did not want the US to intervene because Hitler and and their Soviet benefactors were not buddies.
And, most sane people remembered the folly of our last European excursion (WW1), as tragically pointless too. So, why do it again?
This is what Lindbergh thought too. But after Pearl Harbor, the tide shifted.
Philip Roth was a putz.
alanc709, 11:52:
McGrath's words, not mine.
I remain puzzled by the insistence of some on the left that Trump is owned by Russia, Russia just loves Trump and vice versa, Russia is controlling the White House! and so forth. As far as I can tell the proof of this is that Trump has - wait for it - said nice things about Putin when invited to criticize him. All the while pursuing policies decidedly unfavorable to Russia. He says nice things about Xi - then challenges China on trade and much else. Hence my quote of Will Rogers' old definition of diplomacy.
But yes. The left's soft spot for leftist dictators is an old peeve of mine as well.
was he any good?
I tried several times to read Roth but just couldn't do it. My bad.
Why can't they just say I don't like Trump's ideas?
They haven't a clue what Trump's ideas are. They can't get past his style. I don't know about others, but it was Trump's style that was reason numero uno why I supported him ab initio. A thumb in their eye.
I enjoyed Goodbye Columbus and Portnoy's Complaint, but found the rest of his stuff pretty mediocre.
I never read Goodbye Columbus, but I saw the movie, which gave us Ali McGraw. That was a good thing. As for Portnoy's Complaint, I did read that, and I found it to lie on the warped side of life.
Well, after the 1939 Hitler-Stalin pact (erroneously called "The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact"), the Leftwing lackeys in the USA did not want the US to intervene because Hitler and and their Soviet benefactors were not buddies.
Only recently have historians began to assign the Hitler-Stalin pact the place it rightly deserves.
No Hitler-Stalin pact, no German invasion of Poland.
Russia Russia Russia is all lies for Hillary.
All . of. it.
Shouldn't this be its own category in literature? "Facism-porn"? Lefties have always been fantasizing about living under a "fascist regime" from the time Reagan was in power to G.W.Bush and now Trump. To each their own but why do I have to watch them masturbate in public? I wouldn't even bother reading this interview, so predictable, so very, very tiresome.
"Charles Lindbergh, in life as in my novel, may have been a genuine racist and an anti-Semite and a white supremacist sympathetic to Fascism,"
like pretty much everyone else in 1930's America who was not actively a Communist.
Bay Area Guy said...
For the record, in the years before Pearl Hatbor, the vast majority of Americans were "isolationist". The better word is "non-interventionist
Actually, in the days before pearl harbor most (75-85%) of Americans thought we had nobusiness in any european or asian war.
Some of us still think that.
Fdr lied and schemed us into ww2 from 1939 sinking german ships, occupying iceland, giving war supplies and weaponry to england and more
We had no business in ww1 OR ww2
John Henry
Samurai Buzzard
Irrelevant to my point. In Roth's telling Lindbergh is an anti Semitic white supremacist. That is Roth's premise. And even under that assumption he is a hero compared to Trump. So my shot is at Roth, not at Lindbergh, and I think it’s a fair shot.
“ We had no business in ... ww2”
And those sailors at Pearl Harbor had no business shooting back at the Japanese bombers either!
Roth is not very good at reading people.
I read Roth's "The Great American Novel" in 1975. I thought it was pretty funny at first: a comic history of early 20th century baseball. I got a bit confused later in the story when he starts weaving threads of anti-Semitism into the plot. I read a few other Roth titles after that, looking for more of his humor but lost interest when they all eventually got around to anti-Semitism
I was a young man in the Navy then and honestly was mostly uninformed about the horrors that Jews had faced in Europe for centuries. Just after I left the Navy in '77 there was mini-series on NBC about the Holocaust, and it was the first clear picture I had about what had gone on in in Europe just a handful of years before my childhood. A horrible and gripping story, but still did not enough to make me slog through anymore or Philip Roth novels.
When you've got it (TDS),
You've got it good.
They really do hate us.
Lewis Wetzel: "Only recently have historians began to assign the Hitler-Stalin pact the place it rightly deserves.
No Hitler-Stalin pact, no German invasion of Poland."
It wasn't just a German invasion of Poland. Both Germany and the Soviet Union invaded Poland, from different directions.
Ken B: So my shot is at Roth, not at Lindbergh, and I think it’s a fair shot.
Fair enough, Ken.
"Just after I left the Navy in '77 there was mini-series on NBC about the Holocaust, and it was the first clear picture I had about what had gone on in in Europe just a handful of years before my childhood."
Actually, it was your first exposure to the legend.
Actually, in the days before pearl harbor most (75-85%) of Americans thought we had nobusiness in any european or asian war.
Had the Japanese avoided Pearl Harbor, we might not have entered the war. They could have occupied Indonesia (Dutch East Indies at the time) and got their oil. The Philippines were on their flank, so that was an issue.
The Japanese Army was as brutal as the Germans and created a lot of sympathy for the Chinese.
If Chamberlain had not given the Polish Guarantee, who knows if Germany would have gone for France first ?
Lots of alternative history possibilities.
like pretty much everyone else in 1930's America who was not actively a Communist.
I get your point, but no, that's not true. Americans were, on the whole, better than that. A lot better.
I'm writing a WWII counterfactual novel about Wake Island. In my version Frank Jack Fletcher's semi mutinous staff (historical fact) become actual mutineers and take over Saratoga, and take Task Force 14 on to Wake.
I pointed out that alger hiss through strategic leaks from the nye committee, largely stoked the isolationist movement, it was around 1934, so he had been recruited by the gru by that point,
chambers had worked with same, hence he knew general krivitsky,
The Nazis were evil, the Soviets were evil. They started out as friends and allies, and ended as mortal enemies.
We had to choose. The smartest folks chose to align with the Commies to beat the Nazis, and then, quickly pivot to fight the Commies.
A lotta folks - cough, liberal Democrats, cough, cough -- were slow on the take. Exhibit A: Bernie Sanders.
Lewis:
"Only recently have historians began to assign the Hitler-Stalin pact the place it rightly deserves. No Hitler-Stalin pact, no German invasion of Poland."
If the second sentence was meant to follow the first, then I need to point out that this didn't happen "recently." I have history books from several decades ago that made the same point.
Bleachbit-and-Hammer's comment should be cut-and-pasted in response to every anti-Trump comment by the you-know-who's here. It should be turned into a meme on Imgur (which has a pronounced lefty bias. It needs to be spread to people who are old-school democrats who think they still support the working class. (And Joe Biden recently announced his support for taking California's AB5 bill that destroyed the gig economy nationwide.)
Because today's Democrats are advocating destroying the economy, throwing the nation into recession, and pulling all support from Israel.
This is not even about socialism, bad as it is. This is about killing hundreds of thousands of jobs, spiraling inflation, and destroying the health care industry (which, god knows, needs change, but not this).
"Southerner would not have Voted for a swedish isolationist'
Exactly. "America First" had almost no chapters south of the Mason-Dixon Line. Interventionist Measures like "Lend-lease to Russia" were approved overwhelmingly by Southern Senators and Congressmen. I think 90%. In the rest of Congress it was more like 50-50. The Draft extension in October 1941 passed by a couple votes in Congress. The Southern house members - again - voted 80-90% for. The rest of the country voted
against.
The South wanted to get into WW I also.
the latter's defection prompted chambers to contact Adolph berle, but he didn't come out of the cold till six years later, when krivitsky was assassinated in Washington dc,
hitler regarded the poles like slavs, untermenschen, so his goal was always to move east through the bloodlands,
The Southern support for WWII and FDR is one reason why Hollywood was making Pro-southern movies like Santa Fe Trail, and return of Jesse James. Errol Flynn is Jeb Stuart and John brown as the bad guy! You didn't get the "racist Southerner is a villain" trope until well after 1945.
Communist party USA supported isolationism from Sept 39 to June 1941. The UK/France vs. Germany war was labeled a "Imperialists War". The French shut down the Communists newspapers and outlawed by party in September 1939, because they were considered treasonous.
Hilariously, its the Germans in July 1940 that re-opened the Communist National Newspaper L'Humanité in the interest of Good Germany-USSR relations.
Lindbergh's attitudes, was likely touched off by his observation of how aggressive germany's armaments had gone on, fdr because of his hatred of industrialists,
did not push for rearmament,
Re Lindbergh: While serving in the Southwest Pacific Theater as a civilian contractor for Lockheed, teaching P-38 pilots the difficult-to-acquire skills of flying long distance over-water missions, Lindbergh managed to fly many combat missions. He started his aviation career as a fighter pilot and he wanted to get in on the action. How many missions he actually flew is unknown since all records of his activities have been destroyed on account of it was illegal (and a violation of the Geneva protocols) for a civilian to take part in combat. But take part in combat he most certainly did, frequently and with great effectiveness. Flying his own P-38, he was involved in numerous dogfights with the experienced Japanese pilots, whom he consistently outflew and outfought. It is known for a fact that he shot down at least one enemy fighter, although this has never been officially admitted. The young army pilots with whom he flew let it be known that he actually became an ace, with more than five kills, but again, information and knowledge of his combat record was suppressed and probably no longer exists. The commander of the squadron was not happy to have him flying into combat with is pilots, because he knew that if anything happened to Lindbergh he would take the fall for it. But he could not order Lindbergh to say on the ground because "word" had come down from somewhere very high up on the command chain that he was to be allowed to do whatever he wanted. This all happened without FDR's knowledge, and no doubt the famous aviator's activities were kept secret from the president, who absolutely hated Lindbergh.
Chennault was another American civilian aviator who saw combat, when he was the de facto commander of the Kuomintang's air force before Pearl Harbor. According to his biographer, Martha Byrd, Chennault shot down as many at 30 Japanese aircraft; possibly more. No records exist of his combat exploits and Chennault stayed mum about them, carrying the secret to his grave.
The Lindbergh family has apologized for Lindbergh's politics. Indeed, there is much to apologize for about Lindbergh. Not just his politics, but his domestic life. Yeah, Lindbergh was an admirable hero in some respects, but that just threw the less admirable aspects of his life into sharper relief. Anyway, he was never really close to the Presidency whilst Henry Wallace was at one time one mitral valve prolapse away from the office.....The Lindbergh family are apologetic. The Rosenberg family on the other hand, down to the third generation, are still proud of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Some satirist with Roth's malicious wit should make fun of them. It is kind of funny. A few years before Stalin starts gearing up a fresh new Holocaust, a young Jewish-American couple make the ultimate sacrifice to supply him with a weapon of mass destruction. Ethel Rosenberg could have walked out of prison with a relatively light sentence, if she had just confessed. I wonder if she was pressured by her husband to keep the faith. How much of that ultimate sacrifice was hers? A drama that will never be told and issues that will never be discussed....At any rate, I think it reflects well on the Lindberghs that they have apologized for their father and poorly on the Rosenbergs that they are still proud of their grandparents.
"I pointed out that alger hiss through strategic leaks from the nye committee, largely stoked the isolationist movement, it was around 1934, so he had been recruited by the gru by that point"
The communist line prior to 1939 was to attack re-armament in USA, UK, and France. The Labour party in UK, supported "standing up to Hitler" and an alliance with the USSR, while Opposing every effort to spend more $$$ on the Army or institute a draft. The American communist party took the same tack. They were against "militarism" aka rearming and Hitler. In June 1940 we had an army air-force of 50,000 men and a regular Army of 200,000 armed with WWI artillery 300 light tanks. And not a single parachutist.
“I never read Goodbye Columbus, but I saw the movie, which gave us Ali McGraw. That was a good thing.”
What? Really?
yes the mirapols who were beatified by e.l. Doctorow, every decade there seems to be a new link in the chain that filtered nuclear technologies to stalin, ted hall was the penultimate one,
I enjoyed some of Roth's work, but Lindbergh did more good for the world than Roth ever did.
consider henry ford, he provided the conduit for the protocols of zion, that czarist forgery of French prose, that inspired the more extreme manifestations of antisemitism,
Lindbergh's family have no right to speak for the man much less to apologize for his politics. Lindbergh was a complex person with virtue and flaws. In the final tally his virtues outweighed his flaws. His "America First" movement was in line with the thinking of the vast majority of Americans. To say, as some have, that he was a fascist who was sympathetic to the Nazis is to miss much about what man the man tick and how he viewed the world.
Well, Ford was just an outright rotten son-of-a-bitch.
hilarious re Chennault and the flying tigers, the white house aide who sponsored the avg, later turned out to be a soviet agent,
btw, an acquaintance, whose grandfather had the unfortunate experience of dealing with chiang kai shek, doesn't cut him much slack,
Re my comments above about Chennault: it has been said that he shot down well over 40 aircraft while flying a Curtiss Hawk 75 fighter, while he was technically a civilian contractor/advisor for the ROCAF. It is a plausible but un-proveable figure. If true, he was America's leading all-time ace, surpassing even the great Dick Bong (a Wisconsin boy, btw), who was credited with 40 confirmed kills (and who probably shot down many more than that number).
the fellow in the second to last reference
Henry Ford was arguably a bigger anti-Semite than Hitler. In any event, it was Henry who introduced Hitler to The Protocols of Zion. On the other hand, if the United States did not have the industrial prowess than Henry Ford had introduced into the United States, we might not have won the war......Lindbergh was not all he claimed to be. I'm not sure but I think his family might be more offended by marital history than by his politics. There is nothing to admire about those prevarications.
the white house aide who sponsored the avg, later turned out to be a soviet agent.
I don't care. The AVG pilots were cool guys, and they accomplished a lot in a very dark time for America and the Allied cause. As did Chennault.
btw, an acquaintance, whose grandfather had the unfortunate experience of dealing with chiang kai shek, doesn't cut him much slack.
Again, I don't care. A lot of people took a dim view of Chiang -- the communists foremost among them. I doubt that any man in modern history faced challenges as difficult as those that Chennault had to deal with. You should read the recent biography "The Generalissimo" for a truly balanced view of the man.
Ford was certainly an anti-Semite, and also a racist ... also a hater of the white working class who labored in his factories. Basically he hated everyone from the lower stations in life. He was a hateful arrogant son-of-a-bitch. And he did more than most individuals to help make America a great nation.
yes, they were grave challenges and against mao, who racked up a butchers bill on par with honqquing, and yet has a following among American and other academics, Taiwan has proved a sanctuary of freedom, against the regime, whose structural shortfalls have been recently demonstrated,
Bill Peschel said...
Lewis:
"Only recently have historians began to assign the Hitler-Stalin pact the place it rightly deserves. No Hitler-Stalin pact, no German invasion of Poland."
Is that so? I've been saying for some time that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was one of history's hinges, bent in the direction of Hell, and that the Soviet Union deserves less credit for winning WWII and more for starting it.
BTW Bill, as I think I wrote you in another thread, you say you're a Sherlock Holmes fan, and obviously do genre appropriate reading, so have you had any thoughts on the Nero Wolfe stories by Rex Stout? You may be aware of a speculation that Nero Wolfe is Sherlock Holmes's literary, I believe natural, son.
Blogger William said...
Henry Ford was arguably a bigger anti-Semite than Hitler.
He was deeply and enthusiastically so, in detail and at length. However, Harry Golden reports that he repented of this later in life, and ordered that his mass of collected anti-Semitic materials be destroyed (vexing, incidentally, a museum which would have been happy to collect these exhibits to fight anti-Semitism, but understandable).
In my version Frank Jack Fletcher's semi mutinous staff (historical fact) become actual mutineers and take over Saratoga, and take Task Force 14 on to Wake.
They could have done it at Guadalcanal and saved a lot of Marines. Fletcher sailed away with the Marines equipment, including rations. Thye ate Japanese rations for weeks.
Since we're castigating Ford and Lindbergh, why don't we cast our morality nets further back in history to snag all those with serious character and personality flaws that cause them to come up short in our estimation of their worth as human beings? I'm not talking about unambiguously evil people (e.g., Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc.), but rather about the sort of flawed individuals being discussed here. This all reminds me of Victor Davis Hanson working himself into a fury (and a very selective fury at that) over Alexander the Great's putatively murderous proclivities and other unpleasant character traits.
Trump is the worst authoritarian in history. He obeys court orders, his opponents speak without hinderance, and his propaganda effort is limited to some tweets that everyone could ignore. The FBI is clearly not under his control, and his party lost it majority in the House of Representatives.
I am more worried about the Green New Deal Dems than our Donald. Roth was deranged. David Simon is deranged. They are the ones to watch.
Roughly, VDH was wrong? Was heterodox?
They leapt to their feet, and as they gathered books, papers, chessmen, Stephen said, 'I am so glad to hear what you
tell me, about Aristotle. I had forgotten those words or had skipped them - the whole book I read with a cross,
superficial mind, having taken against him in those far-off days because of his weak remarks about birds and for his
having brought up that showy brute-beast Alexander, as great a public nuisance as our Buonaparte - but of course he
was the great learned man of the world.' He lowered himself through the lubber's hole, and as he hung there by his
elbows with his feet searching for the shrouds below he said to himself, 'Tonight is perhaps Jack's true peripety.
Dear Lord, how I pray that his tragedy may end happy and that..." Here kindly hands seized his ankles, guiding them
to a firm foothold.
Fletcher was more concerned with keeping the American aircraft carriers in play. That was job number 1 for him, and it was one of the world's most difficult jobs at the time. He took a calculated risk in leaving (albeit only temporarily), believing that the Marines would hold out. They did. Fletcher made the right call. If he had stayed there was a very strong chance that the carriers would have suffered a fate similar to our cruisers in the First Battle of Savo Island. And if we had lost our carriers, well ...
Nichevo:
Roughly, you're missing my point.
what do you think of this then Watson provided Hollerith, with the tabulation equipment the Nazis recquired so says Edwin black, many captains of industry provide similar assistance,
there is a fillip of this sentiment, back when john loftus resurfaced Prescott bush's investments in pre war germany, guilt by association,
Was it in Portnoy's Complaint that he sent what seemed like the first fourth of the book talking about masturbating into a slice of liver? Towering intellect.
The long arc of history: Taiwan is a democracy with a western European standard of living. China not so much. Chiang did better with Taiwan than Mao did with China. Mao's portrait still hangs over Tiannamen Square. Taiwan is willing to discuss Chiang's failings. Any useful lessons here?....Has FDR ever received much criticism for his handling of Jewish refugees and the St. Louis? The long arc of history is a rainbow arch that shelters certain characters and not others. I couldn't get through Roth's novel. Does he take on any of FDR's moral failings?
only larry beinhart had more extreme derangement, also whoever helmed the Manchurian reboot,
Of course I've read Lunstrom's article and I agree with him about Fletcher. Also I think think Fletcher probably did the right thing in turning back from Wake Island, although that's a tougher call. I think it's possible that he could have held the Japanese off at Wake for just long enough to evacuate the Marine garrison; but it's equally if not more likely that Japanese land and naval air power would have been brought to bear on his fleet and destroyed it. In which case our position in the entirely of the Pacific from the West Coast of California would have been very doubtful indeed. Morison's criticisms of Fletcher are outrageous and disgraceful. His "always fueling" deprecation is vile and false. Morison had a personal animus for Fletcher and ruined the latter's good name and reputation purely out of spite.
"Lindbergh's family have no right to speak for the man much less to apologize for his politics."
Just as you can't accept an apology on someone else's behalf (I think that's a Jewish tradition, maybe from Maimonides), you can't apologize on someone else's behalf (I think I came up with that myself).
This all reminds me of Victor Davis Hanson working himself into a fury (and a very selective fury at that) over Alexander the Great's putatively murderous proclivities and other unpleasant character traits.
I actually like Alexander but I read Mary Renault's books about him which make him a tragic hero.
Certainly, the Persians were not morally superior.
Fletcher has suffered a bit in reputation and not just from Morrison whose 50 volume history I have never read. I have read the shorter version but many years ago. I actually like Morrison's Columbus books better. It was interesting to read how Morrison used the yacht "Mary Otis" to retrace his voyages. Maybe I just like sail boats better.
By way of comparison: at about the same time as the Wake Island tragedy was unfolding Adm. Sir Tom Philips steam heedlessly up the Malayan coast and lost battleships Prince of Wales and Repulse as result. The Allies would not regain control of the sea in that area until nearly the end of the war. Contrast that with Fletcher's actions. Outcome: he did NOT lose Saratoga.
Navies are really fragile things. You lose a few important ships and the balance of power where they were operating can be entirely upended. In naval warfare preserving you ships as a fleet in being is as important as scoring a tactical victory over the enemy. E.g.: Battleship Tirpitz never engaged another ship in combat and yet she was responsible for the sinking of 28 of 35 ships in Convoy PQ-17; not because she did anything (she didn't), but because of the mere fact of her existence.
You have to keep care with your resources, the first chapters of ghost fleet, with a pearl harbor redux, that includes Chinese armor makes that point clear,
Had I been a Macedonian phalanke I would probably have loved Alexander; right until he took us over the Hindu Kush, at which point I, along with everyone else, would most probably have advocated for going home. He was a complex fellow, more awe-inspiring than likeable. In "Carnage and Culture," however, Hanson explicitly compares him to Hitler, a very unprofessional viewpoint to adopt for a professional historian of his stature.
maybe more a bismark, that's a rather extraordinary claim
I would rather have worked for Henry Ford than for Alexander the Great.
Part of Tom Phillips' folly was that Repulse and PoW were not well set up for tropical service, especially Repulse.
It was very early so he might be forgiven for thinking that battleships could survive plane attacks but those ships were not well managed. I read an account of the attacks and he was wandering around almost inviting the Japanese to find him. It's a while since I read it but the story was one of repeated blunders. Of course, that was typical of Singapore.
I admit my view of henry ford 2nd, before ford vs Ferrari, was colored by iaccoca's description
I was very much taken aback. Carnage and Culture is a very good book, but it is marred by the chapter on Alexander, which is filled with wrath for its subject. It's as if Hanson was victim of Alexander's wars in another life. Maybe he was one of the Phalankes who got left behind on the Hydaspes battlefield ...
And yet Repulse was considered the better ship by the rank-and-file -- a "happier" ship, better run, with excellent moral and a more competent crew. Prince of Wales, by contrast, had acquired the reputation of a "jonah," a bad-luck ship.
I would rather have worked for Henry Ford than for Alexander the Great.
.
You would not have worked for Alexander, you would have served him.
Although, come to think, maybe Ford was not so different from Alexander, at least in that respect.
they have learned nothing
https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/03/merkels-left-wing-coalition-partner-calls-for-pact-for-humanity-as-migrants-amass-at-eu-borders/
Every person on the left will tell you that Trump is a corrupt and lawless president.
Yet when House democrats impeached Trump, they included no accusations of violating particular laws.
That justifies the claim that many Democrats and others on the Left (and a few on the right) are victims of Trump Derangement Syndrome. They are simply not thinking or acting rationally.
When #nevertrumper Jonah Goldberg talks about Trump on a podcast, he speaks faster, the pitch of his voice gets higher, and his words pile up to a near stutter. This does not happen when Goldberg discussed any person other than Trump.
Back to the original topic, Trump hatred, I'm amazed at how many of the people I interact with here who are hate-blinded. By that I mean they refuse to even consider any of the policies Trump has implemented that have been successful. They don't want to know it. They reject out of hand any facts that conflict with their hatred of Trump.
They are also willfully ignorant--many to this day do not know Hilary paid for the Russia dossier, and think the whole FBI/CIA/Justice depts' shenanigans are a right wing conspiracy fantasy. They consume only MSNBC and especially CNN for their news, along with the "bible", the NYT. They are willfully ignorant of anything that doesn't support their political narrative.
These aren't dumb or uneducated people. Many are retired docs, executives, and entrepreneurs. I lunch frequently with two best friends of mine, one a retired orthopedic surgeon, the other a retired dentist. Both are Jewish, which is a relatively but not exclusively common thread amongst the people I refer to. The ortho will fly into a rage if any defense of Trump is offered, the dentist will have a brief conversation, but is astoundingly unaware of what's been going on and its useless to try informing him because he refuses to believe facts. So after just one or two brushes with politics, we all avoid anything related to the topic when the three of us are together. The ortho and his wife are totally dismayed, by the way, that their former Goldman Director son supports Trump, especially the wife, who's even worse than my lunch buddy.
I had a conversation with another friend I'd just finished playing tennis with yesterday. Very mild mannered guy. Never seen him anything but what I would call placid. Somebody happened to mention Trump in a positive light, just a simple comment about something, and this fellow went into a "shut up!" routine. Wouldn't even consider an actual discussion of why he was so angry or what exactly he dislikes. Just "shut up!". Very strange but not by any means rare these days.
These haters will vote for a democrat cadaver before even considering their position re Trump.
What's strange is that other than that, they're just normal ordinary people. Hate-blind though. My conservative friends and I shake our heads and try to understand, but cannot.
By "here", I mean here in my home town.
When #nevertrumper Jonah Goldberg talks about Trump on a podcast, he speaks faster, the pitch of his voice gets higher, and his words pile up to a near stutter. This does not happen when Goldberg discussed any person other than Trump.
The NTs at Ricochet have something like that. It's just posting on a blog but the anger comes through and they seem unable, just as some on this blog, to accept that a lot of what he does is valuable. Paul Mirengoff at Powerline obviously despises Trump but is able to , usually, understand the positive things.
I used to get Jonah's newsletter, although I did not care for the tone of joking and what he thought of as humor. His book, "Liberal Fascism" is good but I have not paid attention to him since his TDS got bad.
The lefties think everyone who likes what Trump is doing is a "cult member" but I pointed out at Ricochet, I was not a fan at first.
What's strange is that other than that, they're just normal ordinary people.
My FBI daughter is like that. My older son is a trial lawyer with politics to match. His wife is a wild eyed lefty. Probably a friend of Blasey Ford, as she is also a prof of psychology in the Bay Area.
No reasoning with them.
.ditto since I was a cruz supporter<
/a>
Much like a toddler, who having acted up and got away with it, the left in America has become emboldened by the fact that their hysterical hissy-fits against George W Bush, Sarah Palin, John McCain and Mitt Romney seemed to have no downside. But each time, they got a bit more deranged, a bit more detached from reality and a bit closer to the fascist 'power above all things' line. And now, with Trump, its fallen over the edge and there seems no bottom, nothing to stop the craziness and hysteria from just accelerating. Next will come real violence, that is my prediction. The antifa/resistance/woke mob is just forming and coalescing and soon, there will be lynchings, murders and ambushes. You can see it in the online behaviour of many on the left, they are talking themselves into a murderous funk.
He wrote Liberal Fascism but then Jonah became a fan of it when Trump was the alternative. So he doesn't even believe the shit he writes. Ace was right about these soy boys all along.
William: The Lindbergh family are apologetic. The Rosenberg family on the other hand, down to the third generation, are still proud of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
That is one daft bit of moral equivalence, Lindbergh and the Rosenbergs.
(And what Roughcoat said about the Lindbergh family presuming to speak for Lindbergh or apologize on his behalf.)
I met the sr. montes Bradley years ago, he was a fan of 'liberal fascism' then, he had seen the previews in argentina, of course, he saw Obama coming a mile away,
Sounds like HBO wants to make another Handmaid's Tale. Plot Against America is serviceable raw material. To the literate, or literal-minded, the analogy between Lindbergh's fascist America and Bush's post-9/11 America was labored to the point of absurdity. While reading it, I wondered whether Roth was trolling his core readership, as he had with his earliest works. I remember hearing from many how real it felt.
Roth had his lucid moments; I saw a quote from him about how his relatives "...think like Neanderthals but vote for Democrats."
"What's strange is that other than that, they're just normal ordinary people. Hate-blind though." Yeah, It pains me there are many social circles I have to live with that I refuse to talk politics with as we do not even share the same reality, so why make trouble? The bay area is steeped in deep republican hatred, infused in their entertainment movies, tv shows etc. Its a cultural thing.
When it comes to Trump I knew it was hopeless when the Mueller report came out and these very same people said it was ringing proof of Trump's guilt. The only folks that even have a inkling of reality are the commodity traders and software developers who's job rides on being right about the market. They are grudgingly admitting trump has been good for them (but are very quiet about it. They don't want to get fired or divorced)
I didn't draw a moral equivalence between the Lindberghs and the Rosenbergs. It's my opinion that Julius Rosenberg was a far worse person than Charles Lindbergh, but that's not the judgment of history. The Rosenberg spy ring was able to supply the Soviets with the design of proximity fuses on anti-aircraft shells. There are quite a lot of dead American pilots because of the Rosenbergs. This is never mentioned....Lindbergh was naive about politics and Hitler. He comes in for quite a lot of flack because of this. The same might be said of Joseph Kennedy, but, again, this is a subject that is tactfully almost never mentioned.....I think all the news about his post war dalliances might have had an effect on his children. He really was radically different than who he presented himself to be to his children. I can understand how they might bear a grudge. About the Rosenbergs, I wonder why none of the family has ever said a word about his committing the family to a lie and leading their mother off the cliff. You would think someone in the family would have a few sour opinions about Julius Rosenberg.
That guy who managed the Katyn Forest Massacre died in bed with a chest full of medals. So far as I know, no person was ever charged with any of the many wrongs carried out in the gulags. I just read about some 94 year old concentration camp guard being deported. I would advise any here who wish to be mass murderers to do so on behalf of a left sanctioned cause. It's not just better for you, but your children can share in your accolades and fame.
because that is the cause of peace and social justice, it wasn't right for the us to be the only nuclear power, the same sort that rarely castigated the soviets for that part of the arms race,
indeed you can have a son in law, of a Cuban secret police chief, who is the latin American reporter for the Washington post,
"Well, Ford was just an outright rotten son-of-a-bitch."
I don't remember Ford Telling us he'd never take the USA in a foreign war, all the while working to get us into one. Or calling Stalin "Uncle Joe". Or stealing the Companies pension fund. Or driving a company into the ground causing everyone to lose their stock money and jobs.
But tastes vary.
IRC, Admiral Fletcher was trying to Reinforce Wake Island, not "evacuate" the Marines. I may be wrong. If I remember correctly, then there was no point in risking the carriers to keep Wake Island, when we probably couldn't have held it.
"The Lindbergh family has apologized for Lindbergh's politics."
Why not? Lindberg's dead. And we got into WW 2. However, Lindbergh never apologized, and wrote in his 1978 " An Autobiography of Values" that time has proven him and the "isolationists" right. IRC, the New York Times went balletic over that, but most of the other media reaction was fairly mild. If it were published today there'd be screams of "nazi lover" and "hater" from every media outlet. Assuming it could be published.
The Rosenbergs will never apologize because there is still a large number of Marxists, Communists, and pro-communists in academia, the press, and elsewhere. Giving them support and encouragement.
Nobody is pushing back from the other side. And the Left NEVER forgets. I mean, that's why Roth wrote a novel about Lindbergh 70 years after the war!
Another example, is some German who was a concentration camp guard in 1945, was just deported. Everyone involved seemed VERY proud of it. Nowhere in the press releases does it mention the man's age. But if he was 18 in 1945, he be 92 now. I find that crazy. You deport 93 y/o for something he did while 18, 75 year ago.
But the Left thinks differently.
Every person on the left will tell you that Trump is a corrupt and lawless president.
Yet when House democrats impeached Trump, they included no accusations of violating particular laws.
In online discussions I point this out all the time. The accusation goes something like "Trumps crimes/criminal acts are numerous and ongoing"
I respond that the President has committed no crimes. I get called names and blind to the facts. I simple state that Its not me, its the Dem leadership. Schiff, Nadler, Pelosi found it impossible to find a single criminal charge to include in Articles of Impeachment.
he was low man on the totem pole, one of the more high profile war criminals was the head of the oun, Ukrainian nationalists, stepan bandera, he cleaned out about 50,000 in the voydina (sic) border with Poland among others, he remained in the American zone in munich, till he was assassinated by a soviet agent stashinsky, in 1957, the real life smersh, stashinsky ended up working in south Africa, doing similar duty for different masters,
Jupiter said...
"Just after I left the Navy in '77 there was mini-series on NBC about the Holocaust, and it was the first clear picture I had about what had gone on in in Europe just a handful of years before my childhood."
Actually, it was your first exposure to the legend."
So you are saying the Holocaust never happened? The newsreels were fakes? The GI's who liberated a number of the camps were lying?
rcocean said...
Another example, is some German who was a concentration camp guard in 1945, was just deported. Everyone involved seemed VERY proud of it. Nowhere in the press releases does it mention the man's age. But if he was 18 in 1945, he be 92 now. I find that crazy. You deport 93 y/o for something he did while 18, 75 year ago."
So if you are an accomplice to mass murder you get a pass for escaping justice for 75 years? Who knew?
How does this compare to other works
Adventure Story is a 1949 play by the English dramatist Terence Rattigan. The play tells the story of Alexander the Great and his conquests.
First performance: March 17, 1949
Meanwhile cnn is all hagiographic over wilson the closest thing we had to daniel malan the founder of apartheid.
"So if you are an accomplice to mass murder you get a pass for escaping justice for 75 years? Who knew?"
Yeah, i expected I get stupid comments. If he was an "accomplice to mass murder" he would've been imprisoned. he was just a lowly camp guard assigned there to by the German Army.
BTW, how many East European and USSR secret police and Gulag Camp Commandants have been arrested or imprisoned? How many have been deported, if they came into the USA?
I await your snarky dumb response
Heck honecker died in exile in chile, an ex stasi? Is now director over nordstream pipeline.
Mielke was prosecuted for crimes committed 60 years before. But not any at the time of the gdr.
"Just because Trump speaks the language of average people"
https://images.dailykos.com/images/413256/story_image/TRUMP.PUSSY.QUOTE.jpg?1497472355
Roughcoat said...
Nichevo:
Roughly, you're missing my point.
3/8/20, 2:42 PM
That Alexander wasn't a villain like your named parties?
"Trump, by comparison, is a massive fraud, the evil sum of his deficiencies, devoid of everything but the hollow ideology of a megalomaniac."
People who really believe this must be so grateful for the 2nd Amendment.
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