Donny Deutsch: “I’m panicked. I’m absolutely panicked.” [about Bernie]— Samuel D. Finkelstein II (@CANCEL_SAM) February 20, 2020
Joe: “Well, Donny... Get a paper bag, breathe into it deeply...”pic.twitter.com/U2Os4sRGzA
That's Donny Deutsch, and his name is trending on Twitter right now, because of this clip.
But keep listening and you'll hear Morning Joe, and he's doing the same kind of if-Trump-could-do-it reasoning that I was telling you about 3 days ago, here:
I like listening to "Morning Joe" on my car radio as I drive back home after my sunrise run. This is a 5 minute drive and about all I can tolerate, but it's good for giving me a sense of what Democrats are freaking out about at the moment. Today, they were tormenting themselves over Mike Bloomberg. He's got race-and-gender problems, but so did Trump. He's a billionaire, but so is Trump. If Trump did it, shouldn't that mean Bloomberg can do it?Well, now we've seen Bloomberg on the debate stage, and today, Morning Joe is using the same form of defective reasoning to try to bolster hopes about Bernie Sanders.
I don't think they've faced up to why Trump was able to do what he did. Without first giving Trump credit, they're in no position to say so then Mike can do it too. It sounded to me as though they think of Trump as evidence that weird magic things happen. So, why not Mike? At the very least, they should recognize that Trump had a powerful skill in knocking down rivals on the debate stage, and Bloomberg has yet to set foot on the stage....
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177 comments:
He's got race-and-gender problems, but so did Trump.
False.
I voted for Trump because he refuses to cave in and share your Marxist race, sex and class obsessions, professor.
Trump has a virtue here. He doesn't wallow in that shit. He rejects your obsession.
That's one of the things that is great about Trump. He's a leader. He's undoing your discrimination and prejudice BS obsessions and moving us on to the important stuff.
You've got a problem here, professor. Trump doesn't. He's way ahead of you.
If Trump is really playing five-dimensional chess, he might be shaping the the dysfunction of the democrat party by their targeted outrage.
Only outrage appeals to democrats in the primaries. So you get complete losers running.
Former Repub congressman would rather have a socialist be President than Trump. Joe's an asshole.
The left wing propaganda media has a serious disconnect when viewing Trump and his supporters, they just cannot comprehend.
Does the right wing propaganda media have the same disconnect when attempting to understand Bernie and his supporters?
A billionaire who calls women fat broads and horse-faced lesibans. Who didn't enjoy that.
Bloomberg should have recommended introspection.
Stay away from "if the shoe fits." Bloomberg wears size 7.
Your last sentence has extra words.
Some guy following a woman into a position said he had big shoes to fill, and then realized he'd made a mistake.
I didn't watch any Trump debates and liked him.
It is true that predictions, if not worthless, are dependent on things that haven't yet happened.
However, if schadenfreude were a religion, watching Morning Joe these days would be a sacrament. Those jokers put Donald Trump on every time he called in, just like the dimwits at CNN. They gave the master of using OPA (Other Peoples' Assets) billions in free airtime. I think they thought they were torpedoing the GOP. It was the mirror of giving Avenatti all that face time. In each case, they thought they were ruining the rubes in Podunk.
Bah! They are idiots, and their tears are like wine--cheap plonk, but fruit of the vine, none the less.
"Does the right wing propaganda media have the same disconnect when attempting to understand Bernie and his supporters?"
The right-wing is forced to have a huge amount of insight into the left wing, due to the overwhelmingly-left nature of the media and academia. The left wing does not operate under similar circumstances in re to the right wing.
This is not a violation of the Begley Addendum but Joe Scarborough is a total blowhard and not very smart at all. That's my observation of his character. I'm not calling him a moron ….
It is fun watching the Dem party implode and all the media people melt down.
More crying in November. America can't survive another four years of Trump! I think all these people should move to St. Kitts or Canada.
President Trump is, in his style, a "Populist". Oligarch Bloomberg is a "Fascist".
The Daily Freak Out: Yes, Donnie, Bernie will be your nominee. And the folks who will oppose him?
-Anyone who works in the energy field
-Anyone who likes their private health insurance
-Anyone who works in finance
- Anyone who works in insurance
- Anyone who has a job in the private sector
- Anyone older than 45 who is sane
Morning Joke is just that....A joke. Was their favorite MSNBC person Reverend Al there?? The biggest joke of them all. Why any normal person listens to, and kisses his ring is beyond me.
The Dem party is driven by envy, resentment, abortion and identity politics. Bernie's got three out of four of those nailed and he's trying hard to get up to speed on the fourth. That's your party, Dems. Bernie is your avatar. That's your worldview.
Panicked? Now? Ever look in a mirror?
The trick is to reliably identify the people who will say aloud what their co-ideologues are thinking but won’t say aloud. I think in the Left Althouse commentariat that person would be ARM, who clearly has descended into cut’n’paste panic. Inga keeps a brave face, Howard is resigned and fundamentally indifferent, and Cookie continues to believe in the March of History. From what I’m seeing, they would be outliers in the current Donk zeitgeist.
-Anyone who likes their private health insurance
This is going to kill them with unions. We already see this with the culinary workers in Nevada.
Obamacare was supposed to roll up all employer and union plans into the exchanges. It didn't happen because the Democrats knew it was electoral poison. Bernie and Fauxcahontas have not figured this out.
Democrats are "absolutely panicked" about the thought of 4 more years of economic prosperity?
This is going to kill them with unions. We already see this with the culinary workers in Nevada.
And yet the rank and file heavily favor Bernie. Go figure.
Bloomberg proves to be the latest failed silver bullet by popping from the barrel and dropping to the floor six feet down range.
And yet the rank and file heavily favor Bernie. Go figure.
I suppose they just don't believe Bernie when he claims he wants to get rid of their nice health plans and replace it with Medicare for All.
I have no idea why Donny Dumbshit is on TV. He used to have a show, but it was cancelled due to low ratings. He's one of those TV Talking heads that must know somebody.
Bloomberg was awful. Maybe he can hire a good scriptwriter and next time have a few one-liners in reserve.
As someone who has made the Sanders/Trump comparisons, my point has always been that the fact that pretty much the entire establishment is against Sanders and lecturing us all about how unelectable he is and how much of a defeat he would suffer. That was the exactly the line they took on Trump. That doesn't mean Sander and Trump have to have any similarity in style. In fact, their styles are quite divergent.
And while Trump is obviously a bit of a showman, he also distinguished himself by broaching subjects that were becoming verboten (in both parties) to say: "free" trade is a scam, there is too much immigration, and we're starting too many dumb wars. Two out of those three had been the policies of Gore, Kerry, and Obama. Although, as an Obama aide quietly communicated to Mexico and Canada, his anti-NAFTA talk was just electioneering. Opposition to outsourcing had been a populist Democratic idea that played well in places like Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio.
As I said before, one reason to like Sanders (if not to vote for him) is that all the right people hate him. The American oligarchy loathe him. The Establishment sets a very narrow window of ideas and permits vigorous debate within that window. But the minute you start stepping a toe outside the window, the histrionics come out.
"Dave Begley said...
This is not a violation of the Begley Addendum but Joe Scarborough is a total blowhard and not very smart at all. That's my observation of his character. I'm not calling him a moron …."
Yeah, sure Begley. Calling someone a "total blowhard" isn't calling someone a name.
I've decide that you too are a moron.
Thank God for the Beavis and Butthead comparison. It makes it where I can watch those 2 bozos.
"tcrosse said...
This is going to kill them with unions. We already see this with the culinary workers in Nevada.
And yet the rank and file heavily favor Bernie. Go figure."
Really? Says who?
The Establishment sets a very narrow window of ideas and permits vigorous debate within that window.
No, intelligent, moral people reject communism as the evil that it is.
The problem is that Sanders is an evil, insane communist.
I have no idea why Donny Dumbshit is on TV. He used to have a show, but it was cancelled due to low ratings. He's one of those TV Talking heads that must know somebody.
First time I ever saw Deutsch was as a guest judge on Trump's The Apprentice. He's one of those entrepreneur/self-help guys that's going to give you the secrets of to how live a fabulously wealthy lifestyle like him. Interestingly, he leaves off, "Inherit your father's advertising agency."
TV keeps trying to make Deutsch happen, even though viewers are not interested. He's had terrible shows on CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, and USA. CNBC seems to have particular bad look at launching talk shows. Anyone remember when they gave Charles Grodin a talk show back in the 90s? Forget sedatives, that was the cure for insomnia.
I have Demmie friends who keep shuffling the deck, looking for a winner. The latest: Bernie's going to be the Demmie. Bloomberg will self-fund a third-party bid to block Trump. It will be just like Clinton-Bush-Perot in 1992! All we need is a recession, and Bernie's in!
That is why I continue to root for Bloomberg to get the Demmie nomination, although it seems doubtful today. I suspect that Bloomberg's friends, and Bloomberg himself, would rather have Trump than Bernie. They'll not do anything to impede the election of a capitalist, unless Trump collapses.
No, intelligent, moral people reject communism as the evil that it is.
The problem is that Sanders is an evil, insane communist.
Yeah, ok. Aren't there some windmills you need to be getting back to?
The notion that Trump won on style points is bullshit. He won on policy.
I voted for him over these policy issues:
- border security
- ending or lessening illegal immigration
- rejecting Althouse's discrimination and prejudice obsessions
- refusing to bow down to PC censorship
Among others. It was policy, not style that led to Trump's win.
Trump's support began growing as he glided down the escalator, and continued to grow daily right up to and including the day of the election.
Sander's support is 'capped'; will not increase. May decrease once he starts running against Trump.
So what did Trump do last night? I think this is the first Trump rally that did not overshadow a Dem debate.
And yet the rank and file heavily favor Bernie. Go figure."
Really? Says who?
Polls, and the word on the street. We won't really know until Saturday. BTW although the Culinary leadership is against M4A, the SEIU leadership is for it. There again, the rank and file may disagree.
Yeah, ok. Aren't there some windmills you need to be getting back to?
How old are you? I lived thru the era of Soviet and Chinese communism.
You are either too young to remember or too consumed by sophistry to understand basic morality.
There's no difference between Sander's communism and Soviet communism or Nazism. You've got a serious moral problem here.
Sander is a communist. He's a barbarian. A madman. A complete savage.
Random thoughts:
1. The first time I heard of Donny Deutsche (or as I refer to him - Donny Douche) was when he was on the Apprentice as judge of type. I was not impressed then either.
2. The last time I watched “Morning Joe” was 9/12/12. Joe commented that the biggest take from Benghazi was how disloyal it was of Romney to criticize Obama for not protecting the people there.
3. Trump is of abhorrent character. Sanders will bring about abhorrent policies (banning fracking by EO, for example). Self proclaimed conservative never-Trumper who would vote for Sanders (as opposed to leaving the line blank) have let their hatred blind their common sense. This leads me to believe that their Trump opposition is born out of snobbery than anything else.
4. I am not a fan of Trump but these people deserve to experience another Trump victory. If he wins I am going to take the day off and watch MSNBC and CNN all day. They are the true deplorable.
Donny Deutsch sounds like the name of a character from a children's book. It has a similar effect on me that men in shorts has on Althouse. The main difference is that I imagine Deutsch in lederhosen instead of shorts.
A grown man named "Donny"?
Sanders has his supporters.
Not enough to beat Trump.
Cripes. I'm getting my political intelligence from a guy who looks like Benny Hill.
Anyone know any tiger-like political blogs?
"Donny"
It's the ad agency zeitgeist circa 1971.
The results of the Nevada caucus won’t be known for awhile. Just like Iowa.
Fareed Zakaria pointed out this point a couple of days ago: Aside from whether Sanders could be elected, what about what happens if he is?
"Two-thirds of this country thinks we're going in the right direction, and this guy wants to burn it down." Aside from electability, burning it down, that's an even bigger problem, right?
"Aren't there some windmills you need to be getting back to?"
Be careful around those windmills! Supposedly those things cause cancer.
At one point in the debate, my wife wondered out loud if Mini Mike wasn't running as a way to blow up the Democrat Party for Trump. Without accepting that conspiracy theory, I agreed that Mini Mike's presence at the debates certainly had the effect of exposing the "mainstream" candidate's weaknesses in a way that the earlier debates hadn't. Klobuchar came off as shaky under fire. Biden seemed ever more out of it. Even Mayor Pete came off as an insufferable smarmy jerk. Only Bernie and Warren, the 2 socialists, emerged stronger within the Democrat primary context. Hence Donnie's panic.
Apparently Bloomberg managed to get Bernie nearly apoplectic last night. Can you imagine what Trump would do to him in a debate? Does the DNC have a process in place to quickly find a new candidate if Bernie wins the nomination and suffers a stroke on camera?
"Really? Says who?"
The actual rank&file, the folks who do the work - you know, the same guys&gals whom you post videos of dying on the job and then laughing about it.
purplepenguin: "Be careful around those windmills! Supposedly those things cause cancer."
Every trial lawyer in a 2000 mile radius just had their ears pricked up.....(all puns intended)
My thesis since the rise of AOC is that we are within 2 decades of private property confiscation in this country. One can only hope its Sanders who is the nominee. His total obliteration in the general election is the only thing that will stave off where the Dems and the left are taking us. A Bloomberg nomination and defeat in the general election, will push the Democrat party further left into the arms of the AOC wing. The AOC wing needs to be completely destroyed for the US to continue to exist as it has.
Is it just me, or did Mini Mike remind anyone else of Dukakis?
Bloomberg indirectly called Bernie a communist last night.
They should be panicking. Here's just a taste of what will be waiting for Mike if he's the nominee:
https://thenationalpulse.com/commentary/michael-bloomberg-mafia-power/
and
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/goldman_outs_bloomberg_snoops_ed7SopzVLaO02p9foS7ncM
and
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/ebe5ce90-b986-11e2-9a9f-00144feabdc0.html
These articles provide links and commentary on the 2013 Bloomberg Terminal scandal when they revealed they could "see inside" the 330,000 terminals installed at financial professionals' offices. Yes, Bloomberg News is powered by his ability to spy on corporate America and sell the info back to the other corporate "affiliates" Mikey has. I wasn't kidding when I said his "the customer is the product" model is what Google and Facebook and Twitter etc. have built their empires on too.
I'm sure everyone on here who criticized the NSA under Bush or the IRS under Obama will be sure to criticize fascist Mike the corporate spy too. Any time now. Really.
"tcrosse said...
And yet the rank and file heavily favor Bernie. Go figure."
Really? Says who?
Polls, and the word on the street. We won't really know until Saturday. BTW although the Culinary leadership is against M4A, the SEIU leadership is for it. There again, the rank and file may disagree."
I think the last sentence says what I was getting at. Leadership will make their views known, but the rank and file as a whole do not, and really are "unpollable."
The main takeaway from last night's debate is that Bloomberg got the audience and all the candidates to boo capitalism, the best of all possible systems.
If that doesn't scare you into voting Republican, nothing will.
These people are insane.
Curious George: "I think the last sentence says what I was getting at. Leadership will make their views known, but the rank and file as a whole do not, and really are "unpollable."
This was much publicized a few months ago when the democrat aligned unions in Northern MN were complaining publicly that their rank and file were solidly in the Trump camp. The local union leader there was wringing his hands on CNN and saying if the dems didn't do something soon to change the dynamic that the area would go Trump "bigly" (I added the bigly part).
"purplepenquin said...
"Really? Says who?"
The actual rank&file, the folks who do the work - you know, the same guys&gals whom you post videos of dying on the job and then laughing about it."
Really? I'll let the fact that only one person (not guys and gals, which would mean at least four) died at the Sugarland stage collapse, and it was a guy. No girls. But we all know what a bullshitter you are. But show me anything that says the rank and file of the culinary union support Bernie. And that I laughed at people dying in a video. And as long as you're at it, I'm still waiting for you to name one person that was killed or seriously injured because of Walker's Act 10 changes.
I'll predict, you can't, you can't, and you can't.
Bill Peschel: "If that doesn't scare you into voting Republican, nothing will.
These people are insane."
The entire "army" (about 50 actually) of NeverTrumper types in media have already pledged their support for any and every democrat at every level of govt.
With no exceptions.
Every one of them will line up happily and vote for a socialist with no qualms whatsoever.
Just to be clear, they are "panicked" Bernie can't win, not that he might win, right?
Blogger Shouting Thomas said...
I lived thru the era of Soviet and Chinese communism and did nothing to combat it except for to live the life of Riley in my Disneyland of a country. I let my fellow brothers who I call suckers put their lives on the line while I savagely fucked their lonely vulnerable girlfriends.
ST goes on...There's no difference between Sander's communism and Soviet communism or Nazism. Sander is a communist. He's a barbarian. A madman. A complete savage.
That's just the estrogen talking.
It's MSNBC so "can't win". If CNN then "might win".
Morning Joe is just a leftie version of Hannity. Both bring limited intellect and ham handed analysis on everything they touch. I can't imagine subjecting yourself to more than 5 minutes of his blather other than using him as a reverse barometer. He's been continually wrong about Trump for 4 years and counting.
My thesis since the rise of AOC is that we are within 2 decades of private property confiscation in this country.
We'll have a revolution first. And the capitalists have most of the guns.
What Bill Peschel wrote. Especially that last line.
Gahrie is absolutely correct. The capitalist do have the most guns and by capitalist I mean the elite coastal corporate Masters of the universe. you might get a couple of Ruby Bridges out of it maybe a Waco or two but nobody of consequence is going like a lamb to the slaughter. Especially since your visions of a communist takeover are a complete and utter fantasy driven by ignorance and stupidity, impotence and fear.
That's pretty common with unions. the leadership has to support Democrats because the Democrats are the only people that will support them and provide the benefits in the high wages they are seeking. Rank-and-file folks especially groups like firefighters and police officers are fairly conservative. so they whine and moan against the Democrats yet they cash those paychecks and enjoy those long retirements.
@Shouting Thomas:
How old are you?
I'll be 38 in six weeks.
I lived thru the era of Soviet and Chinese communism.
Good for you. Neither of us lived through World War I, so I guess that means we're not allowed to have opinions on it.
You are either too young to remember or too consumed by sophistry to understand basic morality.
Or maybe I just have a different reading of the facts than you. Does your basic morality permit honest disagreement or is your only way of comprehending people having a different point of view than you is to assume they're too ignore or are sophists?
There's no difference between Sander's communism and Soviet communism or Nazism. You've got a serious moral problem here.
You'll have to point me to where Sanders advocated abolishing democracy. Sanders' policies are much closer to Northern Europe than the Eastern Bloc.
Sander is a communist. He's a barbarian. A madman. A complete savage.
Now I understand why you call yourself Shouting Thomas.
“One other big take — Bernie is a hard core commie”
Which would make the 2020 election one of real contrasts. It would really put it to the voters. Starkly.
“In which direction do you [the voters] want the country to head?”
The way of the Founders/Framers (with Trump acting as an imperfect proxy),
or, the way of the EU/USSR/PRC/UN (with Bernie as a model proxy)
Do we want freedom FROM government (which is the question with which the Framers wrestled) via limited, constitutional government whereby government itself is bound by law, or do we want total government.
Madison (Fed. 51) put it this way, “If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.”
Honestly, I don't think the MSM is taking Bernie seriously enough. Who's supposed to win this thing besides him?
I let my fellow brothers who I call suckers put their lives on the line while I savagely fucked their lonely vulnerable girlfriends.
Once again, I encounter Howard's strange honor system.
Real men engage in the butchery and slaughter of warfare. Faggots stay home to fuck the girls.
You're a case study in fucked up lunacy, Howard.
This is above your head, dummy, but read this very slowly. I'm an artist and a Christian. I rejected your dumb fucking honor code because I'm smarter than you. I rejected my fate, which was to be the next generation of cannon fodder charging into 50 caliber machine gun fire on the beach.
You're a dumb fuck, Howard. Think about it for a while, dummy. You've wasted your entire fucking life on an idiot honor system.
Please nominate Berno.
Can't wait to read the endorsements in the Des Moines Register, LA Times, WaPo, NYT, etc.
The scam should finally end.
You'll have to point me to where Sanders advocated abolishing democracy.
For Christ's sake, kid, you write some of the most astonishingly stupid BS.
Maybe you ought to call it a day.
Really, this comment is too fucking stupid to reply to.
And, yes, Howard, you're a dumb sucker for getting dragged into that stupid honor system.
Sanders/Stacy Abrams ticket.
Black men move closer to Trump than any other Republican in the modern era.
I have to give grudging respect to Chris Matthews.
He is as anti-Sanders as you can get, and he wouldn't moderate it for his viewers.
Maybe there is a line you can't cross?
@Shouting Thomas:
For Christ's sake, kid, you write some of the most astonishingly stupid BS.
Maybe you ought to call it a day.
Really, this comment is too fucking stupid to reply to.
Ah, the old you're too stupid for me to reply to. One of my favorite deflections. Translation: I don't have an answer so I'll just call you dumb. Though I appreciate the "kid" remark. You at least made an effort, albeit an exceptionally lame and pathetic one, to be condescending.
t
You're welcome, Thomas.
A grown man named "Donny"?
Well, you know what they say: "Don't do what Donny Don't does."
Farmer,
You’re my favorite Millenial
If Bloomberg's smart, he'll buy 1,000 copies of Peter Schweizer's book, Profiles in Corruption, and give them to the media and then go off on Bernie at every campaign stop and debate:
"According to Schweizer's investigations, Sanders' wife Jane Driscoll Sanders was appointed to several positions of influence when he was mayor of Burlington, Vt. After the pair were married in 1988, she received a big pay increase — ignoring objections from the city council.
Schweizer said that shortly after his wife joined Sanders' administration, she set up a media buying business registered to the Sanders' home in Vermont – despite having no previous experience in the field – and started doing media buying for her husband's campaign.
'And, the dirty little secret here is, Steve, when you do a media buy, the buyer is entitled to a commission of between 10 and 15 percent' Schweizer added. 'So, it can be quite lucrative.'"
Bernie also used campaign funds to buy hundreds of his own books and then distribute them to donors.
-Anyone who likes their private health insurance
Michael K said This is going to kill them with unions. We already see this with the culinary workers in Nevada.
Exactly. The union members didn't pay dues, go on strike, even give up raises in exchange for health care and negotiate their benefits only to just give them away because Bernie is a Communist.
The unions are going to fight this. Either they won't vote or even switch to Trump. Either way...it is a lose for the Democrat party. awwww too bad :-D
Exactly. The union members didn't pay dues, go on strike, even give up raises in exchange for health care and negotiate their benefits only to just give them away because Bernie is a Communist.
It wouldn't be the first time people voted against their own self-interest. We shall see.
So what did Trump do last night? I think this is the first Trump rally that did not overshadow a Dem debate
Well....since the Democrat "debate" was more of a slow motion train wreck, it is pretty hard to compete with watching that disaster.
Trump's rally is pretty much now a predictable thing. Tens of thousands of happy, cheering, supporters and lots of Trumpisms and Trump jokes.
The Democrats. A spectacular train wreck.
It's really so annoying how they try to use Trump's wealth as an explanation for his success -- while in the next breath claiming he isn't nearly as rich as he says he is. In 2016, Trump used his personality, his celebrity and his ungodly energy to campaign hard. He did it on the cheap. Sure, the professional campaign types used money to create and buy ads and whatnot, particularly once he won the nomination. But this notion that Trump self-funded and bought himself the nomination, and then the election, is so outrageously wrong.
Trump used every trick in the book to get free or cheap publicity to get his message out. He wasn't buying publicity like Bloomberg is.
I didn't watch the debate last night, so I'm just now getting info on the exchanges from it. I found this higlight amusing:
When Sanders criticized “tax breaks and subsidies” for the rich, Bloomberg interjected: “What a wonderful country we have. The best known socialist in the country happens to be a millionaire with three houses. What did I miss here?”
“Well, you missed that I work in Washington, house one,” Sanders responded defensively.
“That’s the first problem,” Bloomberg said.
“Live in Burlington [Vermont], house two,” Sanders said. “And like thousands of other Vermonters, I do have a summer camp. Forgive me for that. Where is your home? Which tax haven …"
“New York City, thank you very much,” Bloomberg responded. “And I pay all my taxes. And I’m happy to do it because I get something for it.”
Bernie has a bit of a glass house problem (or 3 house problem) since most of his basic argument is premised on the assumption that being wealthy is unvirtuous and that wealth needs to be redistributed to make things more fair. It's an issue that up 'till now, nobody seems to have highlighed on the Dem debate state (well, other than mayor Pete ascerting that he was the only non-millionaire on the stage last time). It's one thing people on the Right to point that out, but it's quite another for a Dem candidate to.
"tcrosse said...
Exactly. The union members didn't pay dues, go on strike, even give up raises in exchange for health care and negotiate their benefits only to just give them away because Bernie is a Communist.
It wouldn't be the first time people voted against their own self-interest. We shall see."
Sure. Like blacks. But the Dems need these core supporters to not only vote for them in overwhelming percentages, but show up in overwhelming numbers. Trump has already stripped quite a few of these folks away from the DNC. Bernie (and others) preaching M4A will help him take more. Unions do not vote en masse.
Come for Morning Joka, stay for the old feuds.
Before retirement, when I had 10-15 minutes to sip coffee and watch TV before heading to work, Joe and Mika were the least objectionable talking heads to be found. But it didn't take long to realize that Joe isn't very smart, and Mika even less so. Why anyone takes them, their guests, or their opinions seriously is beyond me.
Duetsch is a pretty common Jewish surname.
Narr
When I hear the words "spring training" I reach for my clicker
Translation: I don't have an answer so I'll just call you dumb.
Translation, dumb fuck kid, is that communists don't announce that they are dumping democracy.
They just do it.
Donnie does financial news. He recognizes that Venezuela is right around the corner for the US, given a President Bernie to bring out even the smallest amount of "bad luck."
Now, my philosophy of government.
I want government to leave me the fuck alone. Government is an extortion racket and your choices range from bad to hell on earth. It's really just a choice of which gang you allow to exact tribute.
Your choices:
1. Bad (democracy)
2. Worse (monarchy)
3. Hell on earth (socialism/communism)
My job in this life has been to refuse to be extorted by any gang. There is no perfect solution to this, but I've come up with a pretty good one.
I'm smart and I acquired job skills that allowed me to be always mobile and always in demand. At the apex of my career, in my 40s and 50s, I could fly into any city in the country and be working within a day or two at a considerable hourly wage. Tech was great for this.
I made myself mostly invisible to government. It's not my job to fight back. It's my job to keep the asshole gang's foot off my neck. Confronting them isn't the way. Making oneself invisible and unavailable is the way.
Likewise, I simply found a way to make myself invisible and unavailable to the military. I left it to suckers like Howard to play the hero, while I had a hell of a good time, and (as Howard says) fucked the girls.
You're most welcome, Howard.
they are the steve and eydie of the new set, at what point did you raise any objection, Donnie,
That was a thoughtful, civilized, informative, issue-oriented debate....SAID NOONE EVER.
The way of life and death under the Global Pax American that has been run by the CIA all over the Globe is what The Bad Orange Man has been attacking from day one. His inauguration speech smashed them in the mouth. And his team has won every match attempting to destroy Trump since since then. To understand Morning Joe one must see the Kissinger/Brzezinski/Soros offered them of a world government and they have accepted that offer. How else can you explain the 25 year long 100 billion dollar effort to fake a Science to force us to accept their UN Global Warming Hoax.
The unions can support anyone they like, including Crazy Bernie, however, the workers will be voting for Trump.
@Shouting Thomas:
Translation, dumb fuck kid, is that communists don't announce that they are dumping democracy.
Wow, Thomas, your comments are almost as shitty as your music. Almost.
If "communists don't announce that they are dumping democracy," what exactly was Lenin talking about in The State and Revolution, which was published in 1917?
@Bay Area Guy:
That was a thoughtful, civilized, informative, issue-oriented debate
To be fair, what was the last presidential debate you watched that could be described in that manner?
I really do not understand the Communism versus Capitalism debate. There are no good examples of textbook communism or textbook capitalism worth discussing. It is a moot point.
Instead of using these worn out labels, let's talk about the policy prescriptions that different politicians offer. How will policies enacted under Bernie, Bloomberg or Trump affect our lives for better or worse?
Instead of using these worn out labels, let's talk about the policy prescriptions that different politicians offer. How will policies enacted under Bernie, Bloomberg or Trump affect our lives for better or worse?
Exactly!
Earnest Prole said...
A grown man named "Donny"?
*************************************
Thanks to "the Big Lebowski", he's referred to in some circles as "Shut the fuck up, Donny"
Gk1 said...
Morning Joe is just a leftie version of Hannity. Both bring limited intellect and ham handed analysis on everything they touch. I can't imagine subjecting yourself to more than 5 minutes of his blather other than using him as a reverse barometer. He's been continually wrong about Trump for 4 years and counting.
********************
Has Hannity been continually wrong about Trump? You know, about the Russia Hoax, the Muller report, the FSAI abuses, the Ukraine bullshit, the impeachment outcome? Was he wrong about Kavanaugh?
S N O R T
"Instead of using these worn out labels"
Are we allowed to use the labels people use to describe themselves?
If so, what does it mean to describe oneself as "socialist"?
For Bernie, it has meant, among other things: praising Fidel, defending the merits of bread lines, hiring workers who like gulag-style reeducation camps, and proposing the nationalization of several economic sectors.
Of course, it has not meant proposing the actual policy model of actual Scandinavian countries--Swedish labor market policy, Norwegian fossil fuel extraction policy, Danish immigration policy, Nordic taxation policy, and so on, and so forth.
"Communist" is a little harsh. "Socialist" will do.
It may be "worn out," but Sanders and his Dem voters seem to like it.
For Francisco and Farmer
Well, I just spent a few minutes on Bernie's web site and came away with the following goals of his administration:
Free health, dental, hearing and vision for everyone
100% renewable energy (No fossil fuels)
Free college for all
Cancelation of all student debt
Federal protection against all firings except for just cause.
No federal contracts for companies that outsource overseas
National rent control
2.5Trillions to build 10 Million housing units
Expanded social security benefits for all
There is more but I got tired writing.
@Farmer asks:
"To be fair, what was the last presidential debate you watched that could be described in that manner?"
At the Primary lever, probably none.
At the presidential level, hard to recall. Certainly not any Trump v. Hillary debates, those were fun too.
Ok, Romney v. Obama debate 1 was close to that high standard.
I don't understand how anyone could be against these things.
Capitalism must offer better products for voluntary sale to a free people who own things.
Communism starts by stealing everything, and then quickly imprisons a fourth of the robbed people, executes another fourth and uses armed secret police and soldiers to make the last half work until dead for free producing almost nothing. But it is equal, except for the cadre at the top ( Bernie) that is always more equal.
J Farmer....To be fair, what was the last presidential debate you watched that could be described in that manner?
Actually, when was the last time that there was even anything resembling a debate at all. You know. One where there is an issue or position statement and each person takes a turn defending or destroying that position by presenting factual and or persuasive arguments. Not destroying each other personally, but actually DEBATING the issues.
Never that I can recall.
Shouting Thomas said...
[Howard] "I let my fellow brothers who I call suckers put their lives on the line while I savagely fucked their lonely vulnerable girlfriends."
Once again, I encounter Howard's strange honor system.
Real men engage in the butchery and slaughter of warfare. Faggots stay home to fuck the girls.
You're a case study in fucked up lunacy, Howard.
This is above your head, dummy, but read this very slowly. I'm an artist and a Christian. I rejected your dumb fucking honor code because I'm smarter than you. I rejected my fate, which was to be the next generation of cannon fodder charging into 50 caliber machine gun fire on the beach.
You're a dumb fuck, Howard. Think about it for a while, dummy. You've wasted your entire fucking life on an idiot honor system.
***********************************
Wow. Two guys who brag anonymously that they are happy to enjoy life in America while sneering at the military who make it possible. What social and moral imbeciles.
You deserve each other.
"Sander is a communist. He's a barbarian. A madman. A complete savage.
Now I understand why you call yourself Shouting Thomas."
I like and respect Shouting Thomas, but.......yeah.
Trump isn't playing multilevel chess. He's playing checkers, and these fools keep claiming checkmate, and we say "I don't see it."
It's not "If Trump could do it...". It's "Only Trump could do it." I can't think of anybody else who could do what Trump has. It's a special combination of disruptive, experienced, fearless, and honest where he says exactly what he's thinking without a filter, and that is so unusual in politics that nobody knows how to deal with it, and nobody can copy it. It takes too much confidence, and even Bloomberg doesn't have that.
It's like in extreme sports. The top performers are just more willing to try crazy stuff with a kind of reckless confidence where even if they never tried it before, they know they can pull it off somehow in the end, and that lets them do things others would balk at and likely fail at if they did try.
esbass I don't understand how anyone could be against these things.
Free health, dental, hearing and vision for everyone
100% renewable energy (No fossil fuels)
Free college for all
Cancelation of all student debt
Federal protection against all firings except for just cause.
No federal contracts for companies that outsource overseas
National rent control
2.5Trillions to build 10 Million housing units
Expanded social security benefits for all
How. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature. Anyone with a first grader's understanding of math. Anyone who has the least bit of education on economics. Anyone who has ever learned anything about history. That's how.
How are you proposing to fund all of this. Don't say tax the rich. That won't work.
Also, anyone who values the ability to live in a free society. Not free as all the goodies are gimmies. But free in how we want to live and how much we are extorted out of the money we work damned hard for.
Grow up.
etbass said, "For Francisco and Farmer
Well, I just spent a few minutes on Bernie's web site and came away with the following goals of his administration:
Free health, dental, hearing and vision for everyone
100% renewable energy (No fossil fuels)
Free college for all
Cancelation of all student debt
Federal protection against all firings except for just cause.
No federal contracts for companies that outsource overseas
National rent control
2.5Trillions to build 10 Million housing units
Expanded social security benefits for all
There is more but I got tired writing.
I don't understand how anyone could be against these things."
I don't think anyone is against unicorns. But most people are skeptical they exist.
@Sebastian:
Are we allowed to use the labels people use to describe themselves?
If so, what does it mean to describe oneself as "socialist"?
I think Sanders is using a fairly old tactic of co-opting a term of abuse in order to lessen its power. Tory, suffragette, and impressionist had all been terms of abuse before being embraced by their respective targets.
Of course, it has not meant proposing the actual policy model of actual Scandinavian countries--Swedish labor market policy, Norwegian fossil fuel extraction policy, Danish immigration policy, Nordic taxation policy, and so on, and so forth.
No, it hasn't meant proposing the exact policies in all areas of government from several different Scandinavian countries. I grant you that. But the fact remains that Sanders' policy wish list is a lot closer to Scandinavia than it is to Venezuela. And that's not all that surprising. Emulating Scandinavian-style social democracy had been the standard program of the Democratic Party for years, until Clinton's victory in 1992 moved it more to the right.
@etbass:
No federal contracts for companies that outsource overseas
Sounds good to me!
I hear these Democrats offering free college and cancellation of student loan debt. For the education to be free that would mean everyone employed by the college or university would be working for free. Anyone see that happening? As for cancelling the student loan debt, why it makes every taxpayer a chump and everyone who has ever paid off their student loans an even bigger chump.
As for Medicare for all, what plan do the comrades have to force every doctor to work for only what the government wishes to pay for each service? Is the government going to provide the doctors with a pension plan, health insurance and immunity from malpractice ?
@etbass:
No federal contracts for companies that outsource overseas
Sounds good to me!
@ J Farmer
Yes. That was the only one on that list that sounds like good fiscal policy and I agree with as well. Even if contracting with an American based company is more expensive, the resulting income to people who are going to be paying US taxes and the money that they will be spending will offset the additional cost.
Plus. It is just the moral thing to do. IMO
Are we allowed to use the labels people use to describe themselves?
You don't need to be "allowed." It is your right.
Farmer nailed it in explaining Bernie's use of the term "socialist."
We waste time on debates about capitalism versus communism or socialism. It seems a lot more productive to talk about how Bernie's unicorn farts create the magic needed to make everything free for the common folks.
We might also benefit from a discussion about how Bernie does or does not differ in policy prescriptions from other Democrats running for POTUS.
Someone above said: "Trump used every trick in the book to get free or cheap publicity to get his message out."
As I remember it, a lot of news outlets were tripping all over themselves to cover Trump. No trickery by Trump needed.
For the education to be free that would mean everyone employed by the college or university would be working for free. Anyone see that happening?
No. Pay for university faculty and administrators is more likely to rise.
The purpose of the free education scheme is to greatly increase government subsidies to a very important part of the leftwing coalition. With the money also comes greater government control.
I like Sanders because he is honest. All the others are just as left-wing they just hide it. Except for Bloomberg, who's simply an egotistical fraud. If you want more wars, more immigration, cuts in social security and medicare, AND lots of $$ for climate change, bad trade deals, and social liberalism up the wazoo - bloomie is your guy.
He'll legalize cocaine and outlaw sugared drinks and Cigarettes. He LOVES hate speech laws.
"No trickery by Trump needed."
The Clinton campaign told their news toadies to promote Trump.
With respect to Sanders being a "socialist" or a "communist," I would suggest one employ the time-honored concept of "motive, means, and opportunity".
In that sense, Farmer is correct. Bernie may be a socialist, but he is ineffectual, and might be checked by the Senate or the GOP or the middle class.
However, I think most people are concerned about how Bernie would act, if he became the most powerful man on Planet Earth. The Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces, in charge of all US Attorneys, a pen and a phone to issue Executive Orders.
Sorry, I personally don't want to take that risk. Bernie has the motive, but I don't want him to ever get the means or opportunity.
Always find it incredible that guys like Bloomberg can jump back and forth from D party to R party like a Mexican jumping bean - and people still support him.
Up until 2000 he was a liberal D. Then in 2002 he was a Liberal R, and thought about running as for the R nomination in 2012 and 2016. Now, he's back to being a Democrat. What else will he flip flop on?
Bernie is a Senator from VT and has been for what? 20 years. Is he a security risk? No. I'm for Bernie. He's the only honest man in the race.
Bay Area Guy said...
With respect to Sanders being a "socialist" or a "communist," I would suggest one employ the time-honored concept of "motive, means, and opportunity".
In that sense, Farmer is correct. Bernie may be a socialist, but he is ineffectual, and might be checked by the Senate or the GOP or the middle class."
BAG, any election that results in Bernie becoming President is also an election that give both houses of Congress to Democrats and the AOC wing of the Democrats. There is your motive, means and opportunity.
rcocean said...
Bernie is a Senator from VT and has been for what? 20 years. Is he a security risk? No. I'm for Bernie. He's the only honest man in the race.
Yes he is honest. He doesn't hide he is a Communist.
@cubanbob:
BAG, any election that results in Bernie becoming President is also an election that give both houses of Congress to Democrats and the AOC wing of the Democrats. There is your motive, means and opportunity.
When Nixon won in a landslide in 1972, the Democrats retained control of both Houses. Despite Reagan's electoral success, Democrats controlled the Senate during his entire presidency.
“Those jokers put Donald Trump on every time he called in, just like the dimwits at CNN. They gave the master of using OPA (Other Peoples' Assets) billions in free airtime.”
Indeed they did and indeed they are.
@Farmer:
"I think Sanders is using a fairly old tactic of co-opting a term of abuse in order to lessen its power."
What evidence do you have it's a tactic rather than an accurate self-description the man himself believes in? Has he ever not called himself a socialist and now adopts the label for effect?
"No, it hasn't meant proposing the exact policies in all areas of government from several different Scandinavian countries. I grant you that."
There's a first for everything . . .
"But the fact remains that Sanders' policy wish list is a lot closer to Scandinavia than it is to Venezuela."
That's not saying much.
"And that's not all that surprising. Emulating Scandinavian-style social democracy had been the standard program of the Democratic Party for years, until Clinton's victory in 1992 moved it more to the right."
This is false. The Democratic Party has never tried to emulate that. The key to Scandinavian social democracy is solidarity: everybody pays. That means high VAT and high taxes on everybody, not just "the rich." For the Danes, I believe, it also means restricting immigration: can't have a generous welfare state and unrestricted entry.
Since the Scandinavians have changed policy over time, particularly the Swedes since the 70s, it is vacuous in any case to say the Dems want to "emulate" them. Which Scandinavians in which decade?
I submit Bernie has no effing clue and couldn't tell you five basic facts about any major Nordic policy -- corporate tax rates, level of VAT, work requirements, you name it. The appeal to "Scandinavia" is merely a tactic to lessen the power of socialism as a disaster to be avoided in the U.S.
Shouting Thomas at 9:23am. Ditto on Trump's policies, not his style.
However, I have come around to enjoying his style. And most of those times that I think he's on the wrong track, and shouldn't do that, I wind up thinking, he was right; I was wrong. Like tariffs. They seem to be working, by golly. He's unlike any other President - he keeps me informed, personally, of what he's up to, and what he's thinking. Via Twitter.
@Sebastian:
What evidence do you have it's a tactic rather than an accurate self-description the man himself believes in? Has he ever not called himself a socialist and now adopts the label for effect?
I don't think those two motivates are at odds. Sanders describes himself as a "democratic socialist," and I take him at his word that he believes it's an accurate description of his politics. The "communist" moniker is a different story.
That's not saying much.
Oh, I think the difference between Venezuela and Norway is saying much. Although, as I've said before, I still think it's a pipe dream to imagine we can become Norway by copying Norway policies.
Since the Scandinavians have changed policy over time, particularly the Swedes since the 70s, it is vacuous in any case to say the Dems want to "emulate" them. Which Scandinavians in which decade?
"Scandinavian-style," like "Nordic model" is a description of a general approach to governance. As your own examples demonstrate, not even the Nordic countries achieve these goals the same way. But therm "Nordic model" or "Scandinavian style" typically means a universal welfare state with high levels of taxation and labor regulation.
J. Farmer said...
@cubanbob:
BAG, any election that results in Bernie becoming President is also an election that give both houses of Congress to Democrats and the AOC wing of the Democrats. There is your motive, means and opportunity.
When Nixon won in a landslide in 1972, the Democrats retained control of both Houses. Despite Reagan's electoral success, Democrats controlled the Senate during his entire presidency.
But that was when divide government was good. It's good anytime there's a Republican in the White House.
Divided government is bad when a Democrat is in the White House. I've seen it reported that way many times in my life.
A shirt-tail relative of mine is one Frank Zeidler, genuine Socialist and mayor of Milwaukee 1948-1960. He confided to me at a funeral in 1975 that Socialism is a hard sell where there's ethnic or racial diversity. It plays well where there's ethnic homogeneity, otherwise not.
I think many Democrats are dancing around the realization their party now doesn't have any integrity. Corruption, character assassination, outright lying, and immoral concepts abound, and anyone in the party with any honesty left knows the perils of the path they follow. In the end, too many of those they elect can best be described as charlatans; at worst: career criminals. It's a gangster type of endeavor where those in power cruelly hold that power with ruthless methods. Anyone that gets in the way is destroyed.
Places where healthcare and college are free they are rationed one way or another. In health care, it's access to early care and expensive care. In education, it's access based on ability. Everyone doesn't get to go. In America that would never fly, so those free benefits would become and endless fight over how fast the system gets sunk by overruns and bad service verses who is the biggest victims of this new wonderful block of government cheese.
"Wow. Two guys who brag anonymously that they are happy to enjoy life in America while sneering at the military who make it possible. What social and moral imbeciles."
How does the military make life in America possible? How do they do this? They haven't fought to "protect our freedoms" (as the phrase goes) since at least WWII, and scarcely ever before that.
A shirt-tail relative of mine is one Frank Zeidler, genuine Socialist and mayor of Milwaukee 1948-1960. He confided to me at a funeral in 1975 that Socialism is a hard sell where there's ethnic or racial diversity. It plays well where there's ethnic homogeneity, otherwise not.
That is a fascinating point.
Could it be that socialism tends to pick winners and losers, thus breeding racial or ethnic animus in diverse societies?
They are talking two different ideas: Deutsch doesn't want a socialist commie to become President and Morning Joe thinks Deutsch is worried the socialist commie won't win.
"Places where healthcare and college are free they are rationed one way or another. In health care, it's access to early care and expensive care."
What are some ways they are rationed in these other places? In America, the rationing is self-imposed by those who cannot afford medical care, with the result they live blighted lives of precarious or poor health and/or avoidable premature deaths. Or they obtain medical care but then live lives of financial privation due to overwhelming medical debt. Which form of rationing leaves more people unable to access medical care or financially devastated?
@Farmer:
I appreciate getting closer to agreement here, but at the risk of quibbling:
"But therm "Nordic model" or "Scandinavian style" typically means a universal welfare state with high levels of taxation and labor regulation."
Dems have never proposed emulating that model, stated even in that minimal way. That is, they have never proposed Nordic-style taxation, and few Dems could tell you how Scandinavians "regulate" labor (fun question: should it include "activation" policies or not?).
There are honest American leftists who have honestly proposed something close to this model, the full range of taxes included. But, to my knowledge, no actual Dem politician, including Sanders, if you want to call him a Dem. The American left is about something for nothing.
By the way, has Sanders ever explained why he disagrees with Chavez socialism and prefers Nordic "socialism"? Even if he hasn't addressed this specifically, what evidence do we have that his brand of socialism rejects the Castro/Chavez versions? From the point of view of his stated priorities, what is wrong with the Venezuelan version?
"Real men engage in the butchery and slaughter of warfare. Faggots stay home to fuck the girls.
"This is above your head, dummy, but read this very slowly. I'm an artist and a Christian. I rejected your dumb fucking honor code because I'm smarter than you. I rejected my fate, which was to be the next generation of cannon fodder charging into 50 caliber machine gun fire on the beach."
So, by your own terms you're not a real man.
I don't quite make out how you think it is "faggots" who "stay home to fuck the girls." What does this make you? (That is, did you or did you not "fuck the girls?")
"In America, the rationing is self-imposed by those who cannot afford medical care, with the result they live blighted lives of precarious or poor health and/or avoidable premature deaths. Or they obtain medical care but then live lives of financial privation due to overwhelming medical debt."
All the problems Obamacare was supposed to fix, you mean? You're not saying we spent almost $2 Trillion for nothing, are you?!?
@Sebastian:
Dems have never proposed emulating that model, stated even in that minimal way. That is, they have never proposed Nordic-style taxation, and few Dems could tell you how Scandinavians "regulate" labor (fun question: should it include "activation" policies or not?).
Again, I do not deny that you can point to a difference between Democratic proposals and actual Nordic programs. That isn't my point. I also did not say Nordic-style taxation. I said "high taxation." And if we want to put region-specific labels aside for the moment, would you not agree with me that the overarching goal of progressivism in the 20th century has been an increase in the power of government and more economically redistributionist policies? How closely those two things define the politics of the Nordic countries we can leave to another day.
@Calypso Facto:
You're not saying we spent almost $2 Trillion for nothing, are you?!?
Why not, we did it in Iraq?
Could it be that socialism tends to pick winners and losers, thus breeding racial or ethnic animus in diverse societies?
There's a perceived, if not actual, Free Rider problem. We're happier to subsidize those who look like us.
There's a perceived, if not actual, Free Rider problem. We're happier to subsidize those who look like us.
Plus, as Richard Putnam's research suggests, increased ethnic diversity in an area is correlated with decreased trust and civic engagement. I think when you have a high deal of heterogeneity, people tend to see themselves as atomized individuals, rather than members of a cohesive community.
"would you not agree with me that the overarching goal of progressivism in the 20th century has been an increase in the power of government and more economically redistributionist policies?"
I would!
"How closely those two things define the politics of the Nordic countries we can leave to another day."
OK, let's leave it there.
But might you agree with me that invoking the Nordic model in the way Dems do, not you, is in fact a form of propaganda? And that, as propaganda, it deserves a bit more for Farmeresque questioning than it ordinarily gets?
Tcrosse: I'm a shirttail relative of Governor Elmer Benson. Was told by my ACLU Aunt that he was a socialist. He's buried in the same cemetery as my maternal Grandmother in Appleton the same town they were born in. So you see I can't help my libtard nature... it's generics.
Blogger AllenS said...
The unions can support anyone they like, including Crazy Bernie, however, the workers will be voting for Trump.
The Democrats will Garner more worker votes with Bernie Sanders than without. It's a huge reason why Hillary lost, all those Bernie Bros who jumped to Trump.
Robert Cook, Shouting Thomas is being sarcastic. I triggered his manhood into a hysterectomy rant because he didn't want to go to Vietnam to stop the moral abomination of communism. I fuck with him like Drago does to Chuck. I guess I get away with it because he is a committed homophobe and rape apologist bully.
"All the problems Obamacare was supposed to fix, you mean? You're not saying we spent almost $2 Trillion for nothing, are you?!?"
Obamacare was a crippled semi-solution because it was designed to serve the private insurers, not the end users. It delivered a captive audience and their dollars to the private ensurers. That said, it did, in fact, provide health insurance to many people who had been unable to afford or qualify for it previously. It was/is better than nothing, but it is inadequate, and many Americans remain unable to acquire health care.
Howard goes back into full Biggus Dickus mode.
Don’t be ashamed of that lisp, big boy.
@Sebastian:
But might you agree with me that invoking the Nordic model in the way Dems do, not you, is in fact a form of propaganda? And that, as propaganda, it deserves a bit more for Farmeresque questioning than it ordinarily gets?
Sure, why not. This is politics we're talking about. The whole thing is run on propaganda. Oh, sorry, I mean "messaging." But as a defense against the hysterical notion that Sanders' policies will turn us into Venezuela or Cuba, I think pointing to the Nordic countries isn't that bad.
"Why not, we did it in Iraq?" No disagreement from me there. It just isn't germane to the discussion of health care in the US.
"Obamacare was a crippled semi-solution because it was designed to serve the private insurers .... " In other words, it did what every government run program does, becomes captive to vested constituencies and delivers graft and cost overruns instead of effectiveness.
"It was/is better than nothing, but it is inadequate, and many Americans remain unable to acquire health care." Which I translate as: "I know we were wrong (or lying) when we said this would improve health outcomes, wrong (and definitely lying) when we said you could keep your doctor, and wrong (and unabashedly lying) when we said this was going to save money, but trust us now! We just need FULL CONTROL of this 1/6th of the economy and we'll make everything better."
But as a defense against the hysterical notion that Sanders' policies will turn us into Venezuela or Cuba, I think pointing to the Nordic countries isn't that bad.
You are an exceedingly naive, stupid kid.
Sanders has advocated nationalizing the oil industry and incarcerating oil executives.
Or, it could be that you're just a fucking evil bastard commie yourself.
The camera placement for that photo makes Bloombefg appear taller than he is.
If he were non Nanny Bloombefg, he could be Fun-Size Bloombefg.
@Shouting Thomas:
You are an exceedingly naive, stupid kid.
Sweet of you to say so.
Sanders has advocated nationalizing the oil industry and incarcerating oil executives.
He advocated incarcerating oil executives who broke the law, not incarcerating oil executive because they are oil executives. And the overwhelming majority of all oil and gas production is done by state-owned enterprises. Is Saudi Arabia "communist?" Is modern Russia "communist?" Is Malaysia "communist?" Is Nigeria "communist?"
Or, it could be that you're just a fucking evil bastard commie yourself.
Or it could be that you're just an old fool whose time is better spent making shitty music nobody wants to listen to. Opinions differ.
@Calypso Facto:
"Why not, we did it in Iraq?" No disagreement from me there. It just isn't germane to the discussion of health care in the US.
No, it's germane to a bigger issue. "Cost" is only something people care about when it's the cost of something they disapprove of. When it's something they approve of, they tend to be Mr. Blank Check.
@Shouting Thomas
The friendly fire is getting ridiculously personal. You are acting the fool and Farmer is goading you into being a bigger fool.
You and Farmer are far more in agreement on issues than you and ARM, Ritmo, Inga, Vicky from Pasadena, etc. Why don't you save your ammunition?
You and Farmer are far more in agreement on issues than you and ARM, Ritmo, Inga, Vicky from Pasadena, etc. Why don't you save your ammunition?
Lol. And why don't you go suck his decrepit penis already?
Bending over backwards like that. Talk of ammunition. Get a grip. No, not that kind.
Ah, the old you're too stupid for me to reply to.
It's the only game he knows. And you can tell he's not even very good at it.
Sanders has advocated nationalizing the oil industry and incarcerating oil executives.
Only a moronic monarchist who flunked U.S. civics would think any president has the power to do that. ANd remember how you rank monarchy:
Your choices:
1. Bad (democracy)
2. Worse (monarchy)
3. Hell on earth (socialism/communism)
Just because you wag your steroid-powered tail at the foot of wanna-be monarch Donny Trump doesn't mean that presidents can do the things he wants to or that Sanders pretends he'd be able to do either. He knows the difference between his own rhetoric and reality. You and Trump don't.
Moron. Try getting out of your cave more often.
"What are some ways they are rationed in these other places? In America, the rationing is self-imposed by those who cannot afford medical care, with the result they live blighted lives of precarious or poor health and/or avoidable premature deaths. Or they obtain medical care but then live lives of financial privation due to overwhelming medical debt. Which form of rationing leaves more people unable to access medical care or financially devastated?"
Yes, there is always some rationing, otherwise the system gets stuck with people who overuse and abuse. That's my point. Free does not solve the problem. It's simply not possible for anything of value to be 100% free and 100% accessible, except maybe air. Nothing is like that, becuase it would get swamped by hoarders who must have as much free stuff as they can get, which is a real human tendency. That why you have people driving slow in the passing lane, just becuase they can they feel they should.
In a private system, you can at least get the care if you can get the money through insurance, wealth, savings, loans or charity. In single payer the care that is rationed is just not available at all no matter what you may be able to do to pay for it. That's worse, because I'd rather be bankrupt than dead. On top of that single payer does not incentivize medical advances anywhere near as much as private systems with a profit motive. What single payer does incentivize is denial of care and reduction of choice.
I'm an artist and a Christian.
Hahahahahaaa. An artist. HIlarious.
As for religion, he's a Vatican fuckboi. Still railing about the perceived threat of communism to Vaticanism. Oh noes!
1950 called. They want their politics back.
You make a pisspoor attempt at trying to be a Protestant, Shouty. The establishment doesn't want you - neither elites nor populists. Stay confused for a little while longer.
Uh oh.
Ritmo's shift is over and he is in da house.
Yes, there is always some rationing, otherwise the system gets stuck with people who overuse and abuse. That's my point. Free does not solve the problem.
Who the fuck wants to take on the deadly risks attendant to surgery simply if one were offered "for free?" You are insane.
It's the physicians who are overutilizing the resources of the system - and not the ones getting reimbursed by Medicare or Medicaid.
What makes it so hard for you to understand that overbilling and overcharging is the way the game must be played with private insurers? Their interest in overcharging on premiums and denials sets the entire stage for what causes providers to charge back even higher and more aggressively with referrals in return.
YOu have never asked a physician how he stays in business with private insurance, have you? But pontificate away, you must. It's important for your unlearned opinion to be held strongly. Despite however many years you've racked up and livers you've gone through.
The amount of distraction you go through to avoid the simple truth of things. It's exhausting to listen to.
Fran, most people work during the day.
In fact, I find the idea of a psychiatrist (or whatever you do) who works at night to be intriguing.
Are you one of those telephone hotline-answering social workers? Explain how a mental health kook like yourself assumes everyone has as much free time during the day as you do.
Just another Replunderican, failing to see how the real world works.
He advocated incarcerating oil executives who broke the law, not incarcerating oil executive because they are oil executives.
Except in Sanders’ view all the oil executives broke the law by virtue of their being in the fossil fuels industry.
Except in Sanders’ view all the oil executives broke the law by virtue of their being in the fossil fuels industry.
Are you saying that Sanders will be more of a monarch/tyrant and less interested in pursuing an agenda through legal means than TRUMP???
Wow! Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
Right.
You snowflakes are unreal. This much fear of a post-MI septuagenerian. Incredible.
Bernie wouldn't hurt a fly. But he'll fight for all the normal people and worse off - including the saddest of Republican Sad sacks. Trust me, you'll like it. How much fear and loathing of your fellow Americans you must have to make your highest priority that we treat them way worse and much less generously than even Denmark treats its own people.
Bernie will cure you of this affliction - this hatred you have for the American people. You will feel better. Your country will be stronger and you'll end up liking him for it in the end. Just like we all felt once FDR made America great.
You want a great America - or so you say. Bernie can do it. FDR did it. Trump can only mouth the words and talk the talk, though. He's none of those people and you know it. You know he's not as great as they are and what they can do for America.
@Big Mike:
Except in Sanders’ view all the oil executives broke the law by virtue of their being in the fossil fuels industry.
That is incorrect. This stems from a report back in 2015 over what Exxon knew about possible causes of climate change back to the 1970s. From his Senatorial website: "Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today asked the Department of Justice to investigate potential fraud by Exxon Mobil Corp. over conflicts in what it knew and what it told the public and shareholders about the cause of climate change.
In a letter to Attorney General Loretta Lynch, Sanders asked for a probe into what he called a “potential instance of corporate fraud” by the oil giant."
You can read Sanders' whole letter here.
Until he became a Today show commenter on relationships and a political pundit of sorts, I only knew of Deutsch as the guy who gave contestants advertising advice on Trump's early Apprentice shows.
"'It was/is better than nothing, but it is inadequate, and many Americans remain unable to acquire health care.' Which I translate as: "I know we were wrong (or lying) when we said this would improve health outcomes, wrong (and definitely lying) when we said you could keep your doctor, and wrong (and unabashedly lying) when we said this was going to save money, but trust us now! We just need FULL CONTROL of this 1/6th of the economy and we'll make everything better."
You translate wrong. And...who is "we," kemosabe? I was opposed to Obamacare because it was not single payer, and it was, as a I said, designed to benefit the private health insurers more so than those in need of insurance. It was intended to halt any further public pressure for a true solution to the problem of unaffordable, unavailable medical care. (I was not an Obama supporter or voter, as I saw him accurately as a stealth servant of Wall Street and the oligarchic entities who own this country.He worked for the same people as the Republicans, and as do the Dems, in general.) However, that all said--as I said--Obamacare was still marginally better than nothing, as it did provide access to health insurance and medical care to American who could not previously qualify for or afford. It did improve health outcomes for those Americans who had previously been shut out of access to medical care.
We really do need single payer. It will save money, improve outcomes, and allow Americans to live without fear of bankruptcy or premature death if they are injured or fall ill with serious ailments.
I wonder if ARM saw that Swedish politician come out today and say that Bernie is too far left to be in the Swedish Social Democrat party. Too far left for Sweden. The country Bernie always (disingenuously) points to as one of his examples. LOLGF as they say.
Mackay: “Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
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