October 14, 2019

"The Syrian government had been almost entirely absent from the northeast since it withdrew or was chased out by armed rebels."

"The Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish-led militia that worked with the United States to fight the Islamic State, soon became the region’s overarching political force. Although the Syrian Kurds did not declare Mr. Assad’s government an enemy, Mr. Assad distrusted their efforts to establish self rule and vowed to retake all of Syria’s territory. But he had no way to do so, especially as American troops remained in the area. President Trump’s decision last week to move those troops out of the way of a Turkish incursion gave Mr. Assad an opening, and his forces began to fill it on Monday. In some towns, they were welcomed by locals who chanted nationalistic slogans and carried Mr. Assad’s photograph. In other areas, trucks drove large numbers of Syrian soldiers into the area to take up positions."

From "Syria Live Updates: Assad’s Forces Move Into Area Hit by Turkey" (NYT).

I'm also seeing there that the European Union countries have unanimously agreed to stop selling arm to Turkey, even though "Like most European Union nations, Turkey is a NATO member."

77 comments:

Bob Smith said...

For all those born again warhawks complaining about “abandoning the Kurds: there’s a long tradition of US volunteers going overseas to fight the good fight. Go yourself or send your kid or STFU.

sunsong said...

"President #Putin to #Arab media: All the forces deployed illegitimately inside any sovereign state (in this case #Syria) must leave. Territorial integrity of Syria must be completely restored. Only #Syrians can decide their future."
~ Russian Embassy, Syria

readering said...

Odd quote. Turkey not in EU.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...


"I'm also seeing there that the European Union countries have unanimously agreed to stop selling arm to Turkey, even though "Like most European Union nations, Turkey is a NATO member.""

Which gives you a pretty good idea of what a NATO membership is worth these days. I'd rather belong to Costco.

Michael K said...

Rand Paul was prophetic. Unlike some here and the Democrats.

Ken B said...

So even 50 troops do make a difference...
This is the obvious point the Trumpkins here are willfully not seeing. Trump has given the Turks *permission* to invade. He asks us to trust them, and to believe he can keep them in line. But the issue doesn’t arise if they are denied permission in the first place. Denying permission does not require huge deployments. It requires saying no.

Browndog said...

It's always a game of opposites with liberals.

While they scream bloodbath and never-ending war, the reality is the end of the civil war in Syria, and Trump giving Turkey enough rope to hang themselves and get kicked out of NATO.

n.n said...

Carve Turkey, slice Syria, establish Kurdovo, or any of several other progressive policies with UN General Assembly and Security Council, and human right NGOs approval. Turkey is resisting immigration reform at their southern border.

Michael K said...

Denying permission does not require huge deployments. It requires saying no.

Another 28 year war monger,. Ease up. The American people are tired of endless wars that do us no good. Afghanistan in 2001 made sense. Read "Jawbreaker" by Gary Berntsen. The SF war with local allies made sense. Then Big Army arrived and took over. The Obama ROE were insane. Read "Into the Fire" about how f**ked up it became.

Iraq made sense for six months. Democrats like you and your chickenhawk allies quickly bailed.

Turkey does not have the economy to sustain this. Rand Paul predicted what is happening now. We are not then world's policeman.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

The objective in Syria was to destroy ISIS. We did that. Why should one more American life be placed at risk to referee fighting between Kurds and Turks? Why is that OUR responsibility?

William said...

I'm sure it will end badly. Everything there always does. What's debatable is who it will end badly for. Probably Turkey. Usually the Kurds. Maybe the Syrians....Anyway, if we're not there, our chances improve, but they will claim that the situation is our fault because we're not there.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

What is America’s interest in fighting against our NATO ally, Ken? Economic sanctions caused Turdigan to release the American pastor with no US troops at risk. You’d be the first to condemn Trump if we lost those fifty soldiers.

effinayright said...

Browndog said...
It's always a game of opposites with liberals.

While they scream bloodbath and never-ending war, the reality is the end of the civil war in Syria, and Trump giving Turkey enough rope to hang themselves and get kicked out of NATO.
**********

Liberals are secretly disappointed that Trump didn't side with the Kurds, so they could offer headlines shrieking "Trump sides with Kurds, makes war against Turkish NATO ally."

Yancey Ward said...

I saw an article where ABC News got caught using stock footage of a gun range in Kentucky as footage of the Turkish/Kurdish battles in Syria. Our journalists are morons and liars.

Yancey Ward said...

If I were Trump, I would ask someone in the House to sponsor a War Powers authorization bill declaring war on Turkey for attacking the Kurds. Make these war hawks take a vote.

M Jordan said...

Yesterday I watched Chris Wallace’s sob-fest and almost puked. It was a 60-minute battering of Trump’s decision in Syria with not a single counter point or bit of nuance. Well, he did pull up a tweet from a viewer who asked “When do we ever get out?” but the question was left unanswered. Meanwhile on CNN, Chuck Todd at least let Rand Paul on the air and let him talk (though Todd was as moronic as always).

The news division of Fox is now more anti-Trump than CNN.

Nichevo said...


sunsong said...
"President #Putin to #Arab media: All the forces deployed illegitimately inside any sovereign state (in this case #Syria) must leave. Territorial integrity of Syria must be completely restored. Only #Syrians can decide their future."
~ Russian Embassy, Syria

10/14/19, 11:11 AM


Sunsong, I'd like to introduce you to Robert Cook. Bob, meet sunsong. Maybe the two of you could discuss the right or authorization of the United States to have forces in Syria.

Ken B, other than your very fine concerns about honor or whatever, can you describe and game out any more tangible consequences of US withdrawal? A number of people have described possible positives. Perhaps you can describe the negatives?

Hagar said...

I do not think Bashir al Assad is calling the shots in Syria any more.

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, don’t you have to be seriously gullible to believe something written in the New York Times ?

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

The EU's hands are tied. They can't do anything to Turkey for fear of millions more refugees pouring into Europe.

Thanks Merkel!

jeremyabrams said...

Permission to invade? No, I think Erdogan said, "I'm invading. What can I expect?" Trump had the choice between letting the 50 get killed, tripping the trip wire and resulting in a U.S.-Turkey war, or withdrawing.

Given that binary choice, I'm glad he withdrew.

jnseward said...

To @realDonaldTrump’s critics: In #Syria we have #Kurds, #ISIS, #Russia, #Assad, #Turkey, and a few other random players. How many thousands of American troops should we send there, and what exactly should they be doing?

cubanbob said...

I'm also seeing there that the European Union countries have unanimously agreed to stop selling arm to Turkey, even though "Like most European Union nations, Turkey is a NATO member."

It might be premature, but I see a goal in this in Trump's mind. First stop selling arms, then stop allowing immigration from Turkey and refugees in Turkey into the EU. The Turks get bogged down fighting the Communist Kurd factions while the Kurds in Iraq continue with their semi-autonomous statelet and the Kurds in Iran start weighing their options towards an an Iraqi style solution. Iran is already suffering from sanctions, Russia is suffering from sanctions and the Turks will soon be stuck in this briar patch so most the parties who are enabling the various terrorists groups will be severely damaged economically and thus their ability to support the various terrorist groups will be greatly curtailed. Now we need to put the arm of the Arab Gulf States as well to curb their funding of the various terrorist groups along with putting the pressure on the Pakistani's. Even China is starting to realize they might be getting themselves overextended.

traditionalguy said...

Trump understands power. The USAF and US Naval Carrier Aviation backed up by US Space Force kinetic weapons is our real power. The 50 man Special Forces Base was there only bait as that no one dared attack.

When Trump's chess move is over, Turkey will be our ally and not Putin's ally. Think that one over.

Ray - SoCal said...

It's a good thing Assad's forces are moving back into that area of Syria.

Assad's forces will also take care of the Isis Prisoners.

Turkey has actually been supporting Isis, so any prisoners they got would probably be soon released.

Messy solution, but I see this as the least worst solution. It's not our country, not our problem, and our only focus was defeating Isis. Anything beyond that should require a resolution Declaring War from Congress.

Ray - SoCal said...

It sounds like Turkey said either give us the rope, or we will take it.

>the reality is the end of the civil war in Syria, and Trump giving Turkey enough rope
>to hang themselves and get kicked out of NATO.

Ray - SoCal said...

Assad due to Russian and Iranian support has won the civil war. Assad is not going anywhere.

Turkey is still in denial in this, and supporting anti Assad forces. Syria just bombed a Turkish supported convoy that was going to resupply anti Assad forces.

I'm glad Trump is getting the US out of that mess.

Syria has been a Russian client for a long time.

Jim at said...

Maybe one of the lefty warmongers here can tell me who put boots on the ground in Syria in the first place. And under what authorization.

Thanks.

J. Farmer said...


Nancy Pelosi says she and Lindsey Graham agree on resolution to block Trump on Syria


You can always count on the establishment (i.e. bipartisan) support for America's continued involvement in stupid, pointless, endless wars.

Congress never authorized US troops to even be in Syria, but now they're working hard to prevent their removal. What the fuck?

Seeing Red said...

This is the obvious point the Trumpkins here are willfully not seeing. Trump has given the Turks *permission* to invade.

Or given his permission to get their asses kicked. Time will tell how badly the Kurds want it.

Overall when we had our Civil War, Britain told France to stay out of it. They both kept hands off. IIRC supplies and some support only.

Yes I am aware there was a Civil War naval battle in or near France.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Democrats will tell you so many things, you're bound to find one you like.

narciso said...

actually it doesn't it, it's the third such incursion in as many years,

Michael K said...

Ken B was probably enthralled by the ABC News video of artillery practice in Kentucky passed off as attacks on the Kurds.

We'll never until the Althouses get back from their trip.

Narr said...

We were promised, PROMISED, genocide, but so far nothing much.

Narr
I get the distinct impression there are more children commenting nowadays

narciso said...

a little perspective is helpful, so the Europeans will be allowing all these terrorists, through again, among them haydar zammar formerly of the hamburg cell,

Narr said...

Seeing Red has shared everything he knows about the WABAWS (1861-1865), lest we forget the obvious lessons to be drawn . . .

Narr
Huuhhnnn?

Michael K said...

Syria has been a Russian client for a long time.

A very long time. Since Russia was the USSR. Their port on the Med.

Turkey is biting off more than it can chew. Erdogan has been an Islamist for decades. Let them fight it out.

rcocean said...

So, Nancy and Miss Lindsey get sanctions on Turkey to force them to withdraw. Then what?

1) Does Syria's Assad retake control? IF so, is that a good thing?
2) Do things go back to the previous Status Quo? Was that a good thing? If so, why?
3) Going forward, what is our "end game" in Syria? Are we stay there forever? what are we accomplishing? Other than making Putin Sad?
4) Define Victory. Scott Adams had even more and more interesting questions. So c'mon Democrat War-hawks. Give us more than "We must save the poor kurds".

Greg the class traitor said...

Blogger Bill, Republic of Texas said...

The EU's hands are tied. They can't do anything to Turkey for fear of millions more refugees pouring into Europe.


Sure they can. They have militaries. They can stop the refugees at the border, any time they want to.

On a related subject: I love what this is doing for Brexit.

"Leave the EU before Turkey sends another million refugees there!"

UK will be out on Oct 31

narciso said...

it's more like Sarajevo, Beirut, grozny, then the rather straight forward geographic delineations,

Ken B said...

You aren’t usually this stupid Micheal K
http://kenblogic.blogspot.com/2019/10/abc-uses-fake-war-footage.html

People should hunt up Scott Adams's test for how you know you have won an internet argument. One of them is if your opponent trots out a ridiculous absolute. Which several here, Michael K included, just did.

Ken B said...

Nichevo
Sure. There are several possibilities.
First, Erdogan wins enormous prestige in Turkey, and this prestige enhances Islamist fortunes throughout the Muslim world. Instead of shaking off Erdogan Turkey moves more into the Islamist camp.
Second, the Turks slaughter hundreds of thousands.
Third, a new flood of refugees, numbering in the millions.

Are any of these certain? No. But they are completely ignored by reflexive Trumpers who cannot question even the timing of his farts.

Ken B said...

So DeVere, your position is that Erdogan pushed Trump around, Trump folded, and that's a good thing? Vote for Trump, he can be bullied?

minnesota farm guy said...

@ J Farmer Almost poetic today. I like it!

chuck said...

For a different take which may help some appreciate events, Tom Kratman's take, Our Gallant Allies, the Kurds (and other fairy tales)

Big Mike said...

@Narr, was Seeing Red commrnting about the War of Northern Aggression?

Ken B said...

“Endless wars must end” — just as a war that could have been stopped commences.

Let me pose a puzzler for the reflexive Trumpkins here. You think Turkey, once mobilized and in Kurdish areas, can be restrained by threats of economic retaliation. Tell me why then those same threats would not have been effective *before* Turkey invaded and started killing people? Why couldn’t it have been stopped by those same threats *before* ISIS terrorists could escape?

Lucien said...

Maybe President Trump can ask Congress to authorize a no-fly zone over Northern Syria. If approved, then the Turks can proceed without air cover, and we can attack them if they defy the no-fly zone. If Congress says no . . .

Jim at said...

Ken B. thinks Trump continuing Obama's mistake is a good thing.

Others disagree.

chuck said...

I expect everyone will settle into their positions soon enough. This is more likely about the end of the current war than the beginning of the next. The various parties trying to gain the most territory and settle alliances before it all freezes in place.

tim in vermont said...

Let them settle their civil war. Why are we involved???

Seeing Red said...

Instead of shaking off Erdogan Turkey moves more into the Islamist camp.

Is this possible?

KSA wants tourism. They changed their clothing rules to clothing must be below the knee and women can now show some arm. Hijab and MBO’s (Moving Black Objects) have been lessened.

Ken B said...

Rcocean
You have forgotten one possible outcome: no war. Turkey does not invade.

Drago said...

Ken B: "“Endless wars must end” — just as a war that could have been stopped commences."

You clearly know absolutely nothing about yhe area or the players involved.

There is nothing "new" about this decades long conflict.

Nothing.

Big Mike said...

Well, President Trump has authorized economic sanctions against Turkey. Now we’ll find out how well they work. Ken B predicts they won’t. But we shall see.

Michael K said...

Let me pose a puzzler for the reflexive Trumpkins here.

How about one for the left wing idiots? Did that ABC fake video get you aroused ?

n.n said...

Perhaps a South African solution, let the Kurds lynch other Kurds, while a British... American force can open abortion fields for the native Turks. Also, the Libyan solution is attractive, sodomize Erdogan, abort the leadership and American ambassador, force immigration reform, and waterboard their children in the Mediterranean. Redistribute the survivors and gerrymander the districts in Europe, America, etc., and call it good. Perhaps Syria will step in and mitigate the progress.

a no-fly zone over Northern Syria

We did that with the Iraq war during the Clinton administration, a war that finally ended during the second Bush administration, then was saved and redistributed during the Obama administration.

Michael K said...

en B said...
You aren’t usually this stupid Micheal K
http://kenblogic.blogspot.com/2019/10/abc-uses-fake-war-footage.html


If you are so smart why don't you learn to spell my name? These trolls appear out of nowhere and think they are geniuses.

Howard said...

Fuck the Kurds

n.n said...

Our Gallant Allies, the Kurds (and other fairy tales)

Some yes, others no. We should be wary of progress to normalize diversitist sentiments.

Narr said...

My coinage is War About Between Among and Within the States (WABAWS)

Narr
Seeing Red can speak for himself and the other warrior-ethicists

n.n said...

Obama's wars threaten to liberalize, but, this time, they will not progress in a vacuum. The Germans, French et al will have to tame the immigration reform crisis they normalized and the Mexican... Turkish gateway.

heyboom said...

Love how a war that's been going on for a thousand years is still somehow Trump's fault.

Ken B said...

Poor Michael K. Caught bullshitting he resorts to spelling complaints.
And I’ve been a regular for years, I even have a tag, so you look foolish about that too.

You tried a smear because you are too lazy to engage on the merits and you got caught.

Ken B said...

Hilarious btw Michael that you kvetch about my misspelling your name and misspell mine!

Ken B said...

Big Mike
I did not make any prediction about sanctions working or not. I said Trump took an unnecessary risk. We will see if sanctions work. But if they work now they would likewise have worked a week or two ago.
This is not good stewardship by Trump.

Ken B said...

Heyboom
If the war is a thousand years old so was the peace. You ignore that a week ago the tanks were not rolling and today they are. There is a difference and no snark can disguise it.

Ken B said...

Drago uses a weasel word, conflict. Yes there was conflict. Conflict is not troops on the march and bombs exploding. Trump didn’t even TRY to avert war. He rolled the dice. That is not prudent leadership.

Ken B said...

So Althouse can you explain what options Trump has to deal with Turkish bad behaviour that he did not have a week ago? I am not going to ask the Trumpkins, but you are thoughtful. How has allowing the Turkish incursion strengthen any of our options? You can see that t has split NATO, which was not split a week ago. You can see it has allowed the chaos in which ISIS fighters have been able to escape. Compare Trump to Bush I. Does Trump look good in that comparison ?

Ken B said...

Big Mike
If Trump has authorized sanctions, doesn’t that mean the threat of sanctions was not enough? Because many here seemed quite certain the threat would be enough.

Drago said...

Ken B: "Drago uses a weasel word, conflict. Yes there was conflict. Conflict is not troops on the march and bombs exploding."

Uh, yes it is.

And thanks for combat-splainin' that. Very helpful.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program of Armchair Generals/Faux ME experts explaining why continuing to support groups aligned with designated terrorist Maoist groups who have killed thousands in attacks on civilians inside a NATO allied nation serves American long term interests.

Btw, flights leave every hour for volunteers to join forces with any of the different Kurdish forces in the region and those groups are happy to accept your cash as well.

Get on it Ken B. Glory awaits you...

Big Mike said...

If Trump has authorized sanctions, doesn’t that mean the threat of sanctions was not enough?

Yes.

Because many here seemed quite certain the threat would be enough.

I think you are misinterpreting the poll that Althouse took, perhaps deliberately so. I think the vast majority of us “Trumpkins,” as you dismissively describe us, thought that Turkey would think Trump was bluffing. He wasn’t, as both you and Erdogan are discovering.

n.n said...

Kurds Turn to Russia, Assad to Counter Potential Turkish Attack

It remains to be seen, but there may be a local solution.

tds said...

There are 30-40m Kurds in the Middle-East with large enclaves in Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq. This is an interesting problem that will not go away. Kurds have ambition (they had a sizeable empire in the past spanning through North Africa, Arabian Peninsula, Fertile Crescent, Turkey), and the other countries will not give up territory without the fight.

sunsong said...

without the Kurds, Syria falls to ISIS

Michael K said...

Boy, that troll Ken B has taken over the comments.

No use having a discussion with a troll. Especially since moderation with hours between postiong and seeing limits the conversation.

Nichevo said...

Ken B said...
Nichevo
Sure. There are several possibilities.
First, Erdogan wins enormous prestige in Turkey, and this prestige enhances Islamist fortunes throughout the Muslim world. Instead of shaking off Erdogan Turkey moves more into the Islamist camp.
Second, the Turks slaughter hundreds of thousands.
Third, a new flood of refugees, numbering in the millions.

Thanks for replying.

First,doubt it.
Second, so?
Third, maybe. I guess Europe should do something.