August 15, 2019

"An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death."

"Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.... The office of New York City’s chief medical examiner, Barbara Sampson, completed an autopsy of Epstein’s body Sunday.... The hyoid bone played a central role in a heated dispute last year over another high-profile death in New York, that of Eric Garner. A New York police officer was accused of using an improper chokehold while trying to arrest Garner and of causing his death. A police officers’ association claimed that an autopsy from Sampson’s office found there was no break of Garner’s hyoid bone, and that this proved that the officer could not have strangled Garner and caused his death. This 'demonstrates conclusively that Mr. Garner did not die of strangulation of the neck from a chokehold,' the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association said. But Sampson rejected that claim, saying she stood by her conclusion that Garner died of 'compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.' Sampson’s office said Garner’s bronchial asthma, obesity and high blood pressure were contributing factors. In a widely circulated video of the 2014 incident, the officer was seen grabbing Garner around the neck, pushing him and his face into the pavement. Garner is overheard pleading several times: 'I can’t breathe.' Two weeks later, Sampson’s office concluded the officer’s actions were the primary cause of his death."

From "Autopsy finds broken bones in Jeffrey Epstein’s neck, deepening questions around his death" (WaPo).

151 comments:

henry said...

"according to two people familiar with the findings" ugh.

whitney said...

No the mystery is not deepening. There is no mystery. He was blatantly murdered.

tim in vermont said...

So we have one report from “sources” that he hanged himself with a sheet from his bunkbed, which would leave his feet on the ground. Now this. Then they order up a piece in the Atlantic scolding us for questioning the official story.

Danno said...

Too early to make an educated guess, but it is starting to sound like Arkancide.

Seeing Red said...

And the staff didn’t (or did) do their job.

I’d deep dive everyone’s finances.

John henry said...

And there is a Clinton connection, via Eric holder, with the warden.

John Henry

Rumpletweezer said...

If the Clintons really have people murdered, I have to ask why so many of their critics are still alive. There's Juanita Broderick. There's Monica Lewinsky. Heck, there's Barack Obama.

Ralph L said...

The time I had to be Heimliched, I couldn't speak.

John Borell said...

Two sources familiar with the matter tell me Vince Foster did it.

Kevin said...

This is not the most interesting story about Epstein today.

buwaya said...

Of course, of course.
What is one little bone?
And to think of how small this incident is, in itself.
What is one old man more or less, and is it that important how he went?
And even his crimes were small drops in the world-ocean of wickedness.

The question is really about the nature of our world.

gilbar said...

so, according to Scott Adams, it wasn't murder; it was 'incompetence' .
He bases this on "EXPERT" testimony on 'incompetence'.... HE being the 'expert'

He was taken off suicide watch, Adams says 'incompetence'
His roommate was transferred, Adams says 'incompetence'
Guards were supposed to check at least every 30 mins, and did NOT, Adams says 'incompetence'
Their logs were forged, Adams says 'incompetence'
The hallway videos are GONE, Adams says 'incompetence'
People heard screaming, Adams says 'incompetence'
'supposedly hung himself from the bunkbed, but bones (multiple bones) were broken, Adams says 'incompetence'

Remember, Scott Adams is an "Expert", On 'incompetence'
OH! and don't forget, Scott says that Man made Global warming is a Proven Fact, and Anyone that disagrees with him is: 'incompetence'

rhhardin said...

Official stories are jerking us around. It's like astronomers with their moons and meteor showers. - Armstrong and Getty

Birkel said...

Joe Scarborough is pretty sure this means the Russians killed Epstein on behalf of Trump.

And if anybody would know about accidental deaths, it's Joe Scarborough.

rhhardin said...

The US economy has several suspicious broken ribs and fingers now too.

Bay Area Guy said...

So, Epstein broke his own neck bone?

Darrell said...

So, Epstein broke his own neck bone?

The bedsheet noose certainly could.

rehajm said...

Democrats: We're good at getting away with murder. Now let us put that expertise to work running the country.

Fernandistein said...

So Epstein strangled Eric Garner?

Chuck said...

So federal agents working on orders from Trump strangled Epstein?

That’s what I’m getting. First it was the murder of Fred Trump, then later the murder of Trump’s friend Marty Davis, after Davis revealed that he had given Trump a copy of “My New Order,” a collection of Hitler’s speeches. The questions mount. But we can’t trust the media or the government.

Bob Boyd said...

Multiple breaks in his neck bones

Boy, when Hillary gets mad...look out.
No wonder they heard they heard shrieking. They were probably both shrieking.

John henry said...

There is some anonymous person flying a drone around pedo Island. On july 17, peeking into a window, a computer is clearly visible on a desk

On July 28 the drone revisited and the computer was gone.

FBI wasn't there till this week

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/08/wow-video-shows-computer-was-removed-from-jeffrey-epsteins-island-compound-before-arrival-of-fbi-agents/

John Henry

narciso said...

It was a union crew, whose chief david cox was conspicuously pro hillary.

Oso Negro said...

`@Buwaya - Our world has a thin (very thin) veneer of civilization over our animal nature, which is essentially killer ape. If we consider the extreme ends of the human condition, abject starvation and no guiding society compared to exceptional plenty and the most privileged of societal positions, I believe we can see the goalposts. At the point of starvation, cannibalism appears, everywhere from the Donner Party to the Siege of Leningrad to the plane crash in the Andes. It's the default setting. I am fucking starving to death, my animal survival instinct is raging and I will kill you and eat you. Not too pretty. To my mind, there must be similar recurrent behavior at the other end of the human outcome scale. If you have resources and power far beyond the common run of humanity, what are the inevitable behaviors? I can guess at them, but I have never seen or done a meta-analysis. I will say that I believe our "leadership class" is no more moral than the Chinese or Russians. I also believe that in the behavior of people in the world around you, the roots of all historical human behavior may be observed. And the scary part is that it can, and IS LIKELY, to all happen again. This leaves me feeling fortunate that I have lived in a time of plenty, and not been required to suffer excessively. No guarantee of future results, however.

narciso said...

Oh really:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/08/google_blacklists_american_thinker.html

John henry said...

He was also flying the drone Monday during the fbi search.

Some good footage of fbi & NYPD folks boxing stuff up. Some enterprising journalist could perhaps do some facial recognition to identify them.

Then see if there are any Clinton connections.

They didn't notice the drone at first. When the did, they started blocling the windows. Video here

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/08/fbi-scrambles-to-cover-window-with-cardboard-boxes-as-rogue-drone-captures-raid-of-epsteins-pedophile-island-video/

John Henry

Bob Boyd said...

@ Oso Negro

So Epstein and his guests weren't just having sex with underage girls on that island, they were eating them?

Bob Boyd said...

I wonder if the drone captured any footage of the FBI agents clearing the leftovers out of the fridge.

John henry said...

Kevin,

So what IS the most interesting epstein story today?

I need some good stuff to get the juices flowing

John Henry

Oso Negro said...

@Bob Boyd - They sure as hell would have if they were starving.

Bob Boyd said...

Or maybe the girls would have ganged up and eaten Epstein.
He might have liked that. The ultimate kink, being eaten alive by a crazed pack of beautiful young girls.
But instead, his worst nightmare came true. He was trapped alone in a cell with an enraged Hillary.

Hagar said...

Kind of put you in mind of the legend of the county agent in the Billy Sol Estes case who was found out in a cotton field. He had committed suicide by shooting himself in the back, three times, and with a rifle.

John henry said...

Bob,

Why do you think they were covering the windows?

Also, I've not heard rumors about canabalism. I have heard speculation that there might have been some deaths.

Sometimes an underage girl on film is just not enough to assure loyalty. "I thought I could help you, senator."

https://youtu.be/im3vHOEm-r4

Bonus Fredo appearance.

John Henry

John henry said...

Billy Sol Estes was a close LBJ crony.

John Henry

American Liberal Elite said...

D'Angelo Barksdale had a fractured hyoid bone, too.

John henry said...

A couple miles from pedo island the ocean gets really deep. Like miles deep.

The navy had an underway submarine range there.

Convenient place to dispose of anything.

John Henry

narciso said...

I hate it when that happens

Bob Boyd said...

Epstein's life suddenly turned into a kind of a weird, pedo island version of the lady and the tiger.
Behind one door is a pack of starving young beauties who have turned to cannibalism.
Behind the other is a frowning Hillary Clinton.
He chose poorly.

John henry said...

For those who don't remember The Wire, D'Angelo supposedly hung himself from a doorknob.

Supposedly being the key word. He was actually murdered. The broken bone being the clue.

Thanks for that, elite. I'd forgotten.

John Henry

Amadeus 48 said...

Epstein was just practicing the "choker" gesture to mock and shame his lawyers into doing better, and he overdid it. Epstein never knew when to quit.

narciso said...

In crime story in 87, and then mulholland falls, they painted a story of a govt so depraved they protected a sociopathic nuclear scientist for years

Karen of Texas said...

Has anyone run across the scenario that Epstein's death was a warning - to the Clintons? Because if not, I'm positing it here. And no, I am not defending the morally deficient, depraved, awful Clintons. Hear me out.

Their are others in the shadows more powerful than the Clintons. The Clintons were useful when they had direct access to the levers of power. And they were willing to deal. They also may have gotten a little too big for their britches. They have a "network" and are plugged into the deep state - but they are only a small appendage. As good and loyal servants, this was a "we've taken care of your problem; but you no longer are useful or viable so don't even think about reengaging anywhere, anyway unless we tell you to. Or we'll take you out, too."

tim maguire said...

It doesn’t initially matter how consistent a broken hyoid bone is with strangulation. If a broken hyoid bone is consistent with hanging, then you don’t get to the strangulation question.

Amexpat said...

The plot thickens. I don't think Trump or the Clintons are the culprit, although Trump's DOJ is guilty of gross incompetence for letting this happen on their watch.

What baffles me is that there was a previous "suicide" attempt before in the jail. If that were a murder attempt, the murderers were not very professional. Also, you think Epstein and his attorneys would have made a big deal about a murder attempt.

If I had to bet on a potential culprit, it would be the intelligence community. Epstein might have been leveraging information he gathered to get special treatment in the courts. Some group may be trying covering their tracks.

Francisco D said...

So federal agents working on orders from Trump strangled Epstein? That’s what I’m getting. First it was the murder of Fred Trump, then later the murder of Trump’s friend Marty Davis, after Davis revealed that he had given Trump a copy of “My New Order,” a collection of Hitler’s speeches.

Chuckles has gone full Rachel Maddow.

It does not seem unreasonable to infer that he is seriously mentally ill and a danger to those around him.

Wince said...

The Pathologist and The Grasshopper

07/10/2009 05:12 am ET Updated May 25, 2011

The family of David Carradine is reaching out to the Master Po of the forensic science community in hopes of finding answers to the Kung Fu star’s disgraced mortal exit. Famed pathologist Dr. Michael Baden will perform a second autopsy to determine whether the 72 year-old actor died from auto-erotic masturbation or whether the Bill in Kill Bill could have been killed by someone else (or at least have had some assistance in the bizarre sexual ritual).

Carradine died suddenly last week in Bangkok, Thailand while on location to shoot a new movie. Days later macabre photos were leaked on the web showing the actor seated in the closet with a rope tied around his neck, wrists and genitals.

Baden has worked on dozens of celebrated cases including my own. I had asked for his help in my re-investigation of the notorious Boston Strangler case in 2000. My aunt Mary Sullivan was the final and at 19 years-old, the youngest strangler victim. I took on the case because my mother never believed the so-called Boston Strangler Albert DeSalvo murdered her beloved sister. Dr. Michael Baden helped to prove her right. In the re-autopsy of my aunt’s remains (done nearly 40 years after the crime), Baden discovered that Mary’s hyoid bone was still intact. The hyoid bone is a fragile neck bone broken in 99 % of all manual strangulations.


Dr. Baden autopsied the body of actor David Carradine. Baden determined that Carradine's death was not a suicide. Reportedly, Carradine died while engaged in auto-erotic asphyxiation in Thailand.

tim maguire said...

gilbar said...He was taken off suicide watch, Adams says 'incompetence'
His roommate was transferred, Adams says 'incompetence'
Guards were supposed to check at least every 30 mins, and did NOT, Adams says 'incompetence'
Their logs were forged, Adams says 'incompetence'
The hallway videos are GONE, Adams says 'incompetence'...'


And so on...

Behind the argument that this can’t be explained by simple incompetence is the unstated assumption that this isn’t normal, that it doesn’t go on all the time, that it’s special to the Epstein case.

I bet it does go on all the time, but it’s not a big scandal because if nothing bad happens, nobody finds out.

TJM said...

Just an old-fashioned case of Arkancide, nothing to see here, move along

tim in vermont said...

How did these guys manage to keep El Chapo from escaping?

MacMacConnell said...

Amexpat said...

"What baffles me is that there was a previous "suicide" attempt before in the jail. If that were a murder attempt, the murderers were not very professional."

True, but Epstein's cell mate at the time of the "attempt" was a professional murderer ex-cop.

tim in vermont said...

"So federal agents working on orders from Trump strangled Epstein? That’s what I’m getting.”

Looks like Trump paid a hooker to pee in somebody’s corn flakes.

MacMacConnell said...

Maybe Epstein did die from auto-erotic masturbation, he just took to long to conger up a 14 year old girl fantasy. It's been awhile since the island.

Michael K said...

Blogger tim maguire said...
It doesn’t initially matter how consistent a broken hyoid bone is with strangulation. If a broken hyoid bone is consistent with hanging, then you don’t get to the strangulation question.


All strangulations involve a hyoid fracture. Classical hanging as in executions usually fractured C2, called "The hangman's fracture."

The hangings in suicides, like Robin Williams, are usually asphyxia and do not cause fractures.

There are short drop and long drop hangings

Cervical spine injuries are not commonly found in short-drop suicidal hanging, occurring in only 3.3 % of all observed cases. Cervical spine injury may be occurring in 80 % of subjects aged 66.5 years and above. The most common pattern of cervical spine injury included anterior longitudinal ligament disruption of the lower cervical spine, disk space widening, and no vertebral body displacement. These injuries were mainly associated with an anterior knot position, and may be a consequence of loop pressure to the posterior neck and cervical spine hyperextension.

Michael K said...

Chuck should be red flagged at the least.

tim in vermont said...

Ambrose Evans Pritchard blames Kavanaugh for covering up the Vince Foster murder, he’s a Democrat sympathizer and thought Kavanaugh should have been disqualified on that basis, but he had no illusion that Democrats would use that against Bret. All the same, he saw autopsy photos, he claims, in a piece for the Telegraph, now behind paywall, and says it was obviously not suicide.

Birkel said...

Our institutions are broken.
The breakage is visible.
And we elected a wrecking ball.

Good.

Unknown said...

From breaking hymens

to broken hyroid

Amadeus 48 said...

Chuck--Welcome to the dark side. Your post at 8:07 was one of the best sendups I have seen of Maddow & Co.

Qwinn said...

The lies around Epstein are pretty brazen, but nothing comes close to that one entry in the Clinton Death List where someone with deep ties and dirt on the Clintons was found beheaded... actually decapitated... and the death was ruled "natural causes".

Yancey Ward said...

Maybe by next week Scott Adams will be writing "Epstein was murdered..... incompetence".

Yancey Ward said...

I will wait for the actual autopsy report to be published before I believe this story from two anonymous sources.

Amadeus 48 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JAORE said...


It does not seem unreasonable to infer that he is seriously mentally ill and a danger to those around him.

[Opens note book] OK, [makes note], no guns for Chuck. [Mutters to self]: Gonna need lots more notebooks.

Drago said...

Amadeus 48: "Chuck--Welcome to the dark side. Your post at 8:07 was one of the best sendups I have seen of Maddow & Co."

I'm picturing Amadeus' face when the realization hits that LLR Chuck wasn't actually doing a sendup with his comment in 5, 4, 3, 2,......

bagoh20 said...

Epstein was the most important witness in custody in the entire country, possibly the world. Important, as in dangerous to powerful and famous people. Nobody beyond the POTUS was more important to keep alive. Yet they couldn't even hire some teenager at minimum wage to keep an eye on him? They should have had a team of people sitting right outside his cell with 2-way radios, and multiple cameras watching him. I keep better track of my empty wallet. This was like sending El Chapo out in Manhattan for coffee. There simply is no believable excuse for letting this happen. It was not an accident, unless you believe Hillary's private server was accidental as well as it's destruction and that of her cell phones. Yep, purely accidental. Apparently, they think we are stupid, and from what I have seen, they are right. We keep letting this shit fly, but Michael Flynn was convicted and bankrupted for something the FBI admits he never did. Will we ever have real and fair justice in the country?

Jeff Brokaw said...

Two anonymous sources ...

Okay. I’m willing to engage the theory Epstein was murdered — at this point I would believe almost anything — but we just spent three years reading news stories about Trump and Russia where the vast majority of the sources were anonymous. These stories were largely debunked or just obvious bullshit.

As a result, I can no longer put much stock in anonymous sources on anything, even though I konw at least some portion of those leaks are true, or “true-ish”.

Fen said...

He was taken off suicide watch, Adams says 'incompetence'
His roommate was transferred, Adams says 'incompetence'
Guards were supposed to check at least every 30 mins, and did NOT, Adams says 'incompetence'
Their logs were forged, Adams says 'incompetence'
The hallway videos are GONE, Adams says 'incompetence'


This all happened because conservatives have taught the Left there is no consequence for anything that they do.

And it will happen again. Because conservatives will shrug and let this one go too.

bagoh20 said...

Fuck White privilege. The real thing is Democrat privilege. It's institutional, it's blatant and it's widespread.

traditionalguy said...

If we cannot make a Conspiracy Theory out of this kettle of fish, then we really aren't trying. The "facts" as being given create a perfect storm of impossibilities. The Trump guys must be toying with the world Pedophile Network for fun. Every dude from the British Monarchy, to the Hollywood lodge and the Pope and his boys must be at DefCon5 stress levels by now.

bagoh20 said...

Murder or suicide, it was still no accident. People needed him dead, and they got what they needed. Regardless of how he died, unless it was natural causes quietly in his sleep, it was specifically supposed to be prevented, and should have been at all costs. It was that important.

bagoh20 said...

Incompetence my ass. That was the excuse Comey gave for Hillary's proven crimes, and it was no more believable. In fact, that excuse in both cases is so unlikely that it's impossible. Aliens is a more believable explanation.

Jeff Brokaw said...

The funny thing about the Incompetence Theory — let’s go ahead and caiptalize it right now — is that you can still murder someone, pay off or otherwise lean on a few key payers, and create the illusion of incompetence.

Which provides a distraction for the media and other simple-minded folks who just can’t believe anything is ever other than the way it appears, especailly when it’s received wisdom from out betters in government..

Not saying it was *not* incompetence,but that we can’t really tell from where we sit. Looks the same whether it was actual incompetence, or manufactured fake incompetence. And that’s kind of the whole point.

Darkisland said...

I wonder if there is a Jimmy Savile connection?

Don't know why his name popped up in my fertile brain but it just now did. Allegedly he was a pedophile himself and, allegedly, part of a ring of English pedophiles.

From Wikipedia

Sir James Wilson Vincent Savile OBE KCSG

...

After his death, hundreds of allegations of sexual abuse were made against him, leading the police to conclude that Savile had been a predatory sex offender[4]—possibly one of Britain's most prolific.

John Henry

Darkisland said...

David Begley,

For years I've heard vague rumors of a pedophile ring at Boys Town. Never was interested enough to look into it.

Since this is your neck of the woods, is there anything you can tell us? Any potential connection to Epstein?

Or are the rumors just malicious slander?

John Henry

Mike Sylwester said...

AAT at 9:25 AM
... he saw autopsy photos, he claims, in a piece for the Telegraph, now behind paywall, and says it was obviously not suicide.

Autopsy photos of Foster or of Epstein?

Howard said...

Blogger bagoh20 said... Fuck White privilege. The real thing is Democrat privilege. It's institutional, it's blatant and it's widespread.

That's right, you people need to think white and get serious*, no one is going to do it for you.

*Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets"

Howard said...

What, you people don't believe in coincidences? Jamal Khashoggi did not respond to numerous calls and emails to confirm.

Freeman Hunt said...

Maybe the news can stop referring to the idea that he was murdered as a "conspiracy theory," an abuse of a phrase meant for extraordinarily unlikely events requiring impossibly vast conspiracies. The prison murder of a valuable informant is hardly unlikely.

tim maguire said...

Big events require big causes. A small cause for a big event is unsatisfying, giving rise to conspiracy theories. And it’s in the nature of conspiracy theories that, once started, they are virtually impossible to stop. Thus we still have grassy-knoll truthers, 9/11 truthers, birtherism, etc.

The simplest explanation isn’t always the correct one, but it usually is.

Calypso Facto said...

Incompetence is so weak an excuse at this point, I think it should now appear only as the Incompetence Conspiracy Theory.

SeanF said...

Drago: Amadeus 48: "Chuck--Welcome to the dark side. Your post at 8:07 was one of the best sendups I have seen of Maddow & Co."

I'm picturing Amadeus' face when the realization hits that LLR Chuck wasn't actually doing a sendup with his comment in 5, 4, 3, 2,......


I'm picturing Drago's face when the realization hits that Amadeus knew that and was just tweaking Chuck in 5, 4, 3, 2,......

Amadeus 48 said...

"I'm picturing Amadeus' face when the realization hits that LLR Chuck wasn't actually doing a sendup with his comment in 5, 4, 3, 2,......"

EEK!! You mean Chuck wasn't being funny? Goodness gracious sakes alive!

Yancey Ward said...

In fairness to Chuck, he was also tweaking people. The problem for Chuck, though, is that people in the media really are now pushing the idea that Trump had as much to lose as anyone else if Epstein sang, and this against all the evidence to the contrary.

Amexpat said...

Incompetence is so weak an excuse at this point, I think it should now appear only as the Incompetence Conspiracy Theory.

OK, but since Epstein was in a Federal prison wouldn't that make Trump's DOJ the prime suspect? Unless, someone took advantage of their incompetence to commit the murder.

Either way, this happened on Trump's watch, which makes his DOJ culpable of gross negligence at a minimum.

I use the same logic to blame the Obama administration for the Russian interference in the 2016 election. It happened on his watch and his intelligence agencies should have known about it.

Michael K said...

which makes his DOJ culpable of gross negligence at a minimum.

You mean the DOJ that ran the Russia hoax ? OK

tim in vermont said...

Foster

Amexpat said...

You mean the DOJ that ran the Russia hoax ? OK

You mean that Trump and Barr don't have control of their own DOJ? Are they that lame?

tim in vermont said...

Trump murdered Epstein, but Obama never put those kids in cages, that was Trump’s magical time machine.

Birkel said...

Howard thinks the Qatari intelligence asset posing as a journalist for the Bezos Post is equivalent.
This makes sense when you realize Howard (at a minimum? Maximum?) plays stupid on the interwebs.

We can blame the prison system, of course.
Elevating it all the way to Trump and Barr seems a reach.
This wasn't a long-term situation.
It was a one-off.

I would have preferred Epstein held outside NYC, btw.
A nice military prison would have suited me.

Birkel said...

Amexpat:
You mean the same DOJ of which Sally Yates was a part?
I ask with all due respect, have you been fucking asleep for three years?

Amadeus 48 said...

Amexpat:

Hmmm...

Jeffrey Epstein...Donald Trump!

Whitey Bulger...Donald Trump!

Aaron Hernandez (Mass. correctional)...Charlie Baker!

D'Angelo Barksdale (fictional character)...Robert Ehrlich!

Jeffery Dahmer (Wisconsin correctional)...Tommy Thompson!

Hermann Goering...Harry Truman and Clement Atlee!

Richard Loeb (of Leopold and Loeb)...Henry Horner!

See how easy that was? Absent any evidence, attributing prison deaths to the head of government is pure speculation and quite silly, too. Also (not defend Trump at all), the federal bureaucracy has proved remarkably unresponsive to Trump's initiatives. I guess you think he broke through on the Epstein snuff. Finally, some bipartisan government action in DC and NY!

You might want to rethink your position on the 2016 election. "Russian interference" was negligible and irrelevant compared to the actions of the campaigns, the candidates, and James Comey, who was serving "A Higher Loyalty"--he said so himself.

Amexpat said...

You mean the same DOJ of which Sally Yates was a part?
I ask with all due respect, have you been fucking asleep for three years?


Has Trump been asleep the past two plus years? It's his DOJ and he can put loyalist in key positions to take care of important matters. The Epstein case was about as important as it gets.

Amadeus 48 said...

Oh yeah, I forgot:

The princes in the Tower...Richard III!

Amadeus 48 said...

Amexpat--

Trump's direct orders to the head of the NY MCC would be followed to the letter, if Trump could just get someone in NY to take his call or Don McGahn's successor didn't tell the guy to ignore it.

To believe that Donald Trump has any significant control over the federal bureaucracy doesn't pass the laugh test.

Amadeus 48 said...

Even Nixon couldn't get the bureaucracy to respond. You can't even fire people--they have civil service protection, and they ignore political appointees above them.

Amexpat said...

Hmmm...
Jeffrey Epstein...Donald Trump!


My original comment was in response to those that categorically rule out incompetence as the sole cause. If you do that, then you have to look at who was responsible for getting Epstein safely to trial.

I don't think Trump ordered or set up Epstein's death. I don't like Trump, but I don't he's a murderer. Plus I don't think Barr would go along with such a scheme. But his administration, for which he ultimately must take some responsibility, was in charge of bringing Epstein safely to trial. My view is that it was gross incompetence on Trump's DOJ part.

Bob Boyd said...

Epstein's last words: Hillary? What...what are you doing here?

Birkel said...

Oh, I see.
Amexpat believes Donald Trump repealed all the civil service laws and can fire anybody he likes without a reason.
Because Amexpat is a moron who hasn't been paying attention.

Hell, Trump fires James Comey who enjoyed no civil service protection and got a Special Counsel for his troubles.
And Peter Strozk is suing over his firing.

Seriously?
What the fucking fuck?

Birkel said...

Amexpat: "I don't like Trump..."

Left unsaid: And have therefore suspended all logical reasoning skills.

Skippy Tisdale said...

First it was the murder of Fred Trump, then later the murder of Trump’s friend Marty Davis, after Davis revealed that he had given Trump a copy of “My New Order,” a collection of Hitler’s speeches.

Somewhere Queen Elizabeth is thinking "A copy of Hitler's speeches is a better gift than the one Obama gave me."

tcrosse said...

Epstein's last words: Hillary? So they finally locked you up.

Bruce Hayden said...

You mean the DOJ that ran the Russia hoax ? OK

You mean that Trump and Barr don't have control of their own DOJ? Are they that lame?


Actually, yes.

We just got through two and a half years of the DoJ and FBI refusing to be investigated for spying on Trump, his campaign, and even his National Security Advisor, on the grounds that that would interfere with their investigation of him and them for Russian Collusion that they knew was false, and had even helped fund and instigate. Making this even more absurd, two of the three (McCabe and Strzok) who were actually fired for cause for this whole scheme, are now suing to get their jobs back.

It was so bad that not only could Congress not ask current and former FBI employees about the Russian Collusion hoax, but neither could the DoJ Inspector General (IG). But then, Obama/Lynch DAG Sally Yates had put this precise group, the group running both the Clinton email whitewash and the Trump Russian Collusion hoax, off limits for Inspector General (IG) oversight. These, btw, were the same people (led by DD McCabe and Strzok) who had put together the Special Counsel (SC) investigation. They had it ready to launch, and pulled the trigger upon the firing of their boss, Dir Comey. And it was that SC investigation that was used for almost two years as the excuse to not allow investigation of the Russian Collusion hoax that the very same people had helped invent.

If it looks awfully circular, it was. But it worked.

Amexpat said...

Oh, I see.
Amexpat believes Donald Trump repealed all the civil service laws and can fire anybody he likes without a reason.


Of course not. But as POTUS he's not impotent. He, or the Attorney General, can order extra protection for a prisoner if necessary and bring in someone loyal to oversee.

Birkel said...

Weasel away, Amexpat.
Pretend your statement above was limited and not facially false.
Bruce Hayden lays it out clearly (my comments were substantively the same) but I don't have time for educating the willfully ignorant jack ass NeverTrump shit heads.

Be an idiot elsewhere.

Amexpat said...

Weasel away, Amexpat.
Pretend your statement above was limited and not facially false.
Bruce Hayden lays it out clearly (my comments were substantively the same) but I don't have time for educating the willfully ignorant jack ass NeverTrump shit heads.


Your Wrong! Statement speaks for itself.

By your logic Trump can do no wrong because any faults are the workings of the deep state that Trump is helpless in the face of. This is almost as bad as those suffering from TDS.

Michael K said...

It's his DOJ and he can put loyalist in key positions to take care of important matters.

You have been asleep. Or indulging malice. Even Bush could not get his appointments through the Democrat Senate. He finally gave up and the Clinton DOJ prosecuted Ted Stevens using fake evidence and got him defeated at re-election.

Michael K said...

This is almost as bad as those suffering from TDS.


Like you ? Another Purple Penguin.

Birkel said...

Not at all. Trump and those over whom he has control are Trump's responsibility. And that means a lot of the bureaucracy ain't his fault.

Look, NeverTrump guy, you can blame Trump for everything you like. It won't make you correct. And I'll be happy to call your willful ignorance for what it is.

Also, I love your reductio ad absurdum stupidity. You beat the hell out of the position I never took. Good job.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Has Trump been asleep the past two plus years? It's his DOJ and he can put loyalist in key positions to take care of important matters. The Epstein case was about as important as it gets.”

The problem there is that the government doesn’t work like a business. In a business, you can walk in and start firing until you get the desired result. This doesn’t work in the government. The only person who Trump had fairly unfettered discretion to fire from the FBI was Dir Comey. His #2, DDir McCabe was fired for cause, and is suing to get his job back, presumably under the civil service laws and rules.

Let me repeat that.

The #2 at the FBI allowed his wife to take over a half million dollars in a bribe from a Clinton crony, oversaw the whitewash of her illegal use of a private email server when she was Secretary of State, where she mishandled hundreds, probably thousands, of classified documents, that ended up in the hands of various foreign intelligence agencies around the world. He then led in the plotting, around his $70k conference room table in his office, to create the Trump/Russia Collusion hoax to allow political spying, using FBI, NSA, etc resources, on the Trump campaign, transition, and White House. He met with AAG Bruce Ohr starting in August, 2016, to provide a back door for Steele to get his Dossier of fabricated political dirt to the FBI, then signed FISA warrants verifying that they were completely truthful, when he knew for a fact that they weren’t, since the entire scheme had been plotted in his office (and he had met with Ohr). He lied to NSA Flynn in the Trump WH, to set up a perjury trap (using his usual henchman, Peter Strzok, as the interviewer). He then had the paperwork done to setup the Special Counsel to investigate Russian Collusion, ready to go, and then took it across the street to get DAG Rosenstein to sign it, using the (for cause) firing of his boss, Dir Comey, as the justification. And, the SC investigation was launched to investigate exactly the same Trump/Russian hoax that had been created, organized, and run out of his private office, starting the previous summer (2016).

And he is suing to get his job back.

Birkel said...

Don't bother, Bruce Hayden.
The willfully ignorant cannot be taught.

tim in vermont said...

"and bring in someone loyal to oversee. “

If only.

Bruce Hayden said...

“But then, Obama/Lynch DAG Sally Yates had put this precise group, the group running both the Clinton email whitewash and the Trump Russian Collusion hoax, off limits for Inspector General (IG) oversight.”

This is often overlooked. DAG Yates put the DoJ National Security Division and the FBI National Security Branch off limits to the DoJ Inspector General. Turns out, that the FBI’s Counterintelligence Division(Part of their National Security Branch) (before being detailed to the Mueller SC investigation, the ubiquitous Peter Strzok had risen to #2 in the Counterintelligence Division) was apparently the organization that allowed contractors to access NSA databases using FISA 702 search tools. And by spring of 2016, some 85% of thousands of queries being performed were being done by these FBI contractors. It is very clear, from the FISC opinion, that American citizens were being tracked. Highly illegal, but DAG Yates made sure that the DoJ IG didn’t discover the rampant illegalities, by making sure he couldn’t investigate the part of the FBI allowing this to occur. It was discovered in March/April of 2016, by NSA Dir Rogers, whose databases were being searched by the FBI contractors to perform what almost assuredly was political research. He shut it down by May, and submitted his report to the FISC a day or two before the DoJ and FBI submitted the Title I FISA warrant application on Carter Page, to that court, apparently worried that the court might hesitate granting the warrant, if they knew that the same people (McCabe, Strzok, etc) had been involved in the rampant Title VII abuse reported by Dir Rogers.

Amexpat said...

The problem there is that the government doesn’t work like a business. In a business, you can walk in and start firing until you get the desired result. This doesn’t work in the government.

Don't dispute that. I understand that a POTUS is stuck with a legacy civil service. Your point is valid in how a POTUS may be impotent in making major changes in the way government runs, especially with a Congress in opposition.

But I don't buy that in the case at hand - the protection of an individual in federal custody. Surely they could find a loyal, competent FBI agent, Federal Marshall or whatever relevant federal official to put in charge of his safety.

bagoh20 said...

If Trump could control the deep state, the last 2 years would have looked a lot different. You might say they would have looked competent, and non-partisan. The same deep state people who tried to first turn an election, and are still trying hard to undo an elected President, are the same forces that did this. Trump, not only does not control them, they do whatever they can to resist him. Barr could have done more to prevent this, but I think they both continue to be surprised at the level of corruption they are up against, and how little it fears the law, becuase they know they have the media and half the people completely conned.

grackle said...

If I had to bet on a potential culprit, it would be the intelligence community.

I believe that Epstein ran a pedophilia-fueled blackmail and extortion ring, period. I do not believe Epstein was functionally aligned or acting under the direction of any particular person, ideology, party, nation, institution or agency – except when such an activity would have bought reward to Epstein.

But it is certainly more than plausible to me that Epstein would have had contact and dealings with spies and may have even started out as a spy himself. To the contrary, I suspect that Epstein was probably connected to as many spy organizations (such as the Mossad) to which he could manage to forge connections. The CIA, FBI, NIA, MI5, all the Euro spy agencies and all their Asian, Far Eastern, Middle Eastern counterparts could all have been Epstein’s potential targets for the buying, selling and extortion of information and wealth. I must assume that all these organizations possess their share of pedophiles and are thus vulnerable in a very unique manner to someone like Epstein.

For instance, I can effortlessly visualize, say, Clapper slobbering over some 12 year-old girl on the Lolita Express or Lolita Island or in the Lolita Manhattan Mansion. It’s not a pretty picture but it is easily conjured. Too easily. Ditto Brennan. After being recorded in such a compromising act either man would be virtual putty in Epstein’s hands and in a position to open many doors to Epstein. The same goes for any underlings to such individuals.

These types of individuals and important or influential people of any stripe would be potential Epstein targets. Captains of Industry, CEOs, bank officers, politicians, high-level bureaucrats, entertainment moguls, foundations, spies, etc., all would be grist for the Epstein pedophilia mill, the ever-expanding and lucrative Epstein network.

Epstein’s actual physical autopsy was no doubt performed within a short time after Epstein’s death yet the official report has not been released. Barr could quell rumors easily by releasing it. The delay is bothersome. Until I see evidence to the contrary I will consider this leaked report as valid. And this report spells murder. The burden of proof lies on Barr, now.

Michael K said...

I believe that Epstein ran a pedophilia-fueled blackmail and extortion ring, period.

I agree.

But it is certainly more than plausible to me that Epstein would have had contact and dealings with spies and may have even started out as a spy himself.

Doubt this but Ghislaine, his partner, was the daughter of Robert Maxwell who may well have had connection to Mossad. There is also speculation that he was a double or even triple agent who died in mysterious circumstances,

Leland said...

Yeah, Amexpat, Trump has so much control over the DOJs SDNY, that he managed to get them to raid the office and home of one of his personal lawyers. Then he got the SDNY to pull a confession from his lawyer about lying to Congress about hiding a deal that Trump had already disclosed. Eventually, Trump got the SDNY to arrest his buddy Epstein that everyone knows had dirt on Trump, Only then, Trump had the SDNY make sure Epstein died a couple of days before the SDNY finally raided Epsteins island. Trump and Barr handle the SDNY like a well trained marionette.

Or maybe, the SDNY is acting on their own.

FullMoon said...

The Epstein case was about as important as it gets.

Really? Why?
First person accused of sex trafficking? First pimp? First pervert?

Why, exactly, except for being a titillating story was Epstien so special?

discounting rumor and innuendo and being a very rich, why was this guy more important than Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstien?

And, was he the only person to commit suicide in custody?

As for the idea he was murdered to keep him quiet, all he had to do was answer every question with "I don't recall".

He gonna say Bill Clinton raped little girls? Where is the proof? His word against Bill. If he had proof, it is still out there. No doubt Trump in the clear, I hope for plenty of embarrassing stuff on Dems.





FullMoon said...

Any evidence or any claim Epstein was pedophile? Seems he liked them in their teens and twenties. Unlike judge Kavanaugh, who seems to have raped thousands and done even worse, according to six million Hillary voters.

"Pedophilia (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children"

jono39 said...

The prison staff is culpable in a contract MURDER.

FullMoon said...

I believe that Epstein ran a pedophilia-fueled blackmail and extortion ring, period.

Yep, and rather than make him disappear or dead when he is out of country or on his island and out of public eye,rich and powerful people keep paying the blackmail over the years, and just wait until he is in custody, with the eyes of the world upon him..

And, what is he blackmailing them about? If anything, probably mostly embarrassment.

The way Dershowitz goes on and on, seems like he is talking to his wife and family denying everything.

FullMoon said...

Blogger AAT said...

"So federal agents working on orders from Trump strangled Epstein? That’s what I’m getting.”

Looks like Trump paid a hooker to pee in somebody’s corn flakes.

Tom Arnold and Omarossa have the videos....gonna release October 2020..

Char Char Binks said...

Officer Pantaleo strangled Eric Garner so hard it even killed his daughter.

Howard said...

When shit goes right, you people say Trump's a genius, when they go wrong, the deplorable response is the job is bigger than one man because deep state.

tcrosse said...

As for the idea he was murdered to keep him quiet, all he had to do was answer every question with "I don't recall".

Maybe it was Pour Encourager les Autres.

Drago said...

Howard, at least you are trying hard.

mockturtle said...

Full Moon suggests: As for the idea he was murdered to keep him quiet, all he had to do was answer every question with "I don't recall".

Can you say, "Plea bargain"?

Francisco D said...

When shit goes right, you people say Trump's a genius, when they go wrong, the deplorable response is the job is bigger than one man because deep state.

Trump is no genius, Howard. He just seems like one in comparison to the Democrat Clown Show.

As someone who will vote for Trump again, I have no problem saying that he is an uncouth bastard.

However, he is an uncouth bastard who represents my interests quite well.

narciso said...

Oh;

https://mobile.twitter.com/IvanPentchoukov/status/1161936214557102080

Bruce Hayden said...

Don't dispute that. I understand that a POTUS is stuck with a legacy civil service. Your point is valid in how a POTUS may be impotent in making major changes in the way government runs, especially with a Congress in opposition.

But I don't buy that in the case at hand - the protection of an individual in federal custody. Surely they could find a loyal, competent FBI agent, Federal Marshall or whatever relevant federal official to put in charge of his safety.


Currently, the BOP (Bureau of Prisons) has about 1/3 of the DoJ’s 110k employees, and is run by an acting director. Very similar to the FBI, with roughy 1/3 of the DoJ’s employees, headed by a single person potentially appointed by the President, except that the current FBI Dir (Wray) was nominated by Trump and confirmed by the Senate. AG Barr inherited the current BoP Director, who has been acting director since June, 2018; That means that while the FBI has a single political appointee at its head, the BoP has none. It is run by 35k civil servants with no political leadership whatsoever. None.

The DoJ has a lot of political appointees. There are almost 100 US Attorneys and 100 US Marshalls, as well as roughly 30 others, many of whom work at Main Justice. Only one of those roughly 225 political appointment slots in the DoJ is supposed to oversee the entire US prison system, and it hasn’t been filled.

Why hasn’t it been filled? Someone else may have an idea. Sen Schumer and the Senate Dems tried for a long time to hamstring the Trump Administration by slow walking political appointments as much as they could. But maybe a half a year, or so, ago, in particular, the Senate Republican majority voted to change the rules in order to limit debate for the confirmation of most political appointees, and is finally effectively getting them confirmed - 2 1/2 years into Trump’s Presidency.

The BoP appears to be a mess, or at least the MCC where Epstein was incarcerated and died. A lot of absenteeism, and, relatedly, a lot of mandatory overtime. The unit in which Epstein was incarcerated and died appears to have been severely understaffed the night he died. Which says to me that there was very likely very low morale there at the time.

The other thing to keep in mind is that government employees are very often given incentives to lie a little. For example, the bonuses given to the Supergraders actually running agencies are often dependent upon metrics that can be fudged a bit. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to find that the MCC looks great on paper, allowing the people running it to get their bonuses. They can be quite inventive - for example the PHX VA was able to show decently short waits to see VA doctors by having a second, real, waitlist, and only when a vet got to the top of that list, was he moved to the official waiting list. For several years, the director of the PHX VA bonused nicely as a result of this little subterfuge.

As of 2018 the Bureau of Prisons was responsible for approximately 183,000 inmates, in 122 facilities with roughly 35k employees. The question is why the acting director, and his boss, AG Barr, would be looking more closely at the MCC over the other 121 facilities they oversee. Now, a little too late, the will.

Amadeus 48 said...

With Obama I was told he was a genius all the time. That was crazy. He was a beautiful mediocrity. Trump is an ugly bastard that I agree with often.

Oso Negro said...

I have a Telegraph subscription and went and read the Ambrose Pritchard-Evans piece on Brett Kavanaugh, Ken Starr, and Vince Foster. It was a real eye-opener. It is easy to understand why Democrats wouldn't bring it up. I would NOT have supported Kavanaugh had I read that article at the time. He's 100% establishment.

Amadeus 48 said...

Ambrose evans Pritchard wrote some crazy stuff about the Clintons in the 90s that never led anywhere. Be careful of his byline.

Amexpat said...

@Bruce Hayden
Thanks for the very good explanation of how the BOP works and it's current sorry state. You're much more knowledgeable about the workings of the Federal bureaucracy than I am. Do you believe that there was no reasonable way that Barr could have put in force better protection for Epstein after the first failed suicide attempt?


tim in vermont said...

The Clintons and their merry band of fixers in the FBI are good at making sure stuff doesn’t go anywhere.

tim in vermont said...

"Do you believe that there was no reasonable way that Barr could have put in force better protection for Epstein after the first failed suicide attempt?”

Not if going against a bureaucracy that is rife with Clinton loyalists and in full #Resist mode. If Trump had issued some kind of stand down order, the newspapers would already be full of it. Most likely, he didn’t anticipate anything so brazen.

The funny thing about Vince Foster is that the narrative used to stop further inquiry into the case was exactly the same as the one for Seth Rich. “Let’s spare the family any further pain so everybody shut up” These were high profile deaths and the public has a right to know.

FullMoon said...

Full Moon suggests: As for the idea he was murdered to keep him quiet, all he had to do was answer every question with "I don't recall".

Can you say, "Plea bargain"?

Sure. What did he have to bargain with? What is this super duper blackmail stuff he had, and where is it, and what heinous crimes against the rich and powerful would this evidence supposedly support?

If this guy did not make his money legitimately, he did it the old fashioned way, as a con artist with rich victims.

Anyway, as I said before, would love to see lots of dems outed as creeps and criminals but find a large scale blackmail operation with the victims waiting until he is the center of attention before taking action.

tim in vermont said...

Not to worry though, the FBI is investigating the death, so you can be sure the public will know the truth! HA ha ha ha ha ha!

Anybody notice how right on cue, the TV networks come up with a series to polish the FBI’s image? Just like they did with “Madam Secretary” for Hillary. I am getting sick of living in this country, to be honest.

tim in vermont said...

It’s almost like a kind of warfare.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
walter said...

Dem bones

Phidippus said...

Not dispositive, but suspicious. In context.

But who knows. He may have been into erotic near-asphyxiation, or whatever they call that, and had the hyoid broken then, before he was jailed.

Lifestyles Of The Rich And Famous... ye gods. But I suppose Nero or Caligula's contemporaries could cite similar, or worse tales, if they were here today. As I recall it all ended badly.

Human nature is unchanging, and it's not pretty.

Sad!



narciso said...

now he's more of a sky is falling economic correspondent now, the daily mail revealed how starr left a certain berating from Hillary of foster out of the special counsel's report,

glenn said...

“Surely they could find a loyal, competent FBI agent .....”

Not so fast Buckey.

n.n said...

Pedophilia = child love. It seems that Epstein was a supplier and handler. With a renewed interest in pedophilic trans-social sects, Epstein was no longer viable, and, in fact, a burden. It may have been a self-abortion.

gadfly said...

The convicted pedophile ... told his lawyers that the neck injuries he suffered in an earlier incident at the Metropolitan Correctional Center were inflicted by his hulking, ex-cop cellmate, [Nicholas Tartaglione] which led the lawyers to request that he be taken off a suicide watch ....

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daskol said...

Maxwell, 57, the alleged madam to the multimillionaire pedophile, was scarfing down a burger, fries and shake al fresco at an In-N-Out Burger on Monday while reading “The Book of Honor: The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives,” a nonfiction best seller by journalist Ted Gup.

She had herself publicly photographed reading that book.

daskol said...

lol, check out the most recent Amazon review of this book, by one G. Maxwell. The internet moves fast.

daskol said...

G. Maxwell
5.0 out of 5 starsA comforting read after a personal tragedy
August 15, 2019
Format: Kindle Edition
A good friend of mine died recently under very tragic circumstances. Some of us saw it coming for quite a while but it was still a huge shock when it finally happened. I picked up this book at the advice of a friend and absolutely couldn't put it down. I'd read it walking the dog, getting fast food, or even just lounging around the house. It helped me realized that my friend really believed in something, and that giving your life for the CIA, NSA, FBI, Mossad, or other intelligence agency is truly a higher calling and not something to mourn. A wholehearted recommendation.