June 25, 2019

"The past cannot be changed, so the important part is how we continue our relationship in the future."

Said Wilfrid Cleveland, President of Ho-Chunk Nation, about the University of Wisconsin's "nice gesture" of putting up a plaque that says:
"The University of Wisconsin—Madison occupies ancestral Ho-Chunk land, a place their nation has called Teejop (de-JOPE) since time immemorial. In an 1832 treaty, the Ho-Chunk were forced to cede this territory. Decades of ethnic cleansing followed when both the federal and state government repeatedly, and successfully, sought to forcibly remove the Ho-Chunk from Wisconsin. This history of colonization informs our shared future of collaboration and innovation. Today, UW—Madison respects the inherent sovereignty of the Ho-Chunk Nation, along with the eleven other First Nations of Wisconsin."
Cleveland says the plaque is "really just a support for the actions that need to happen."

74 comments:

Unknown said...

Get ready for the tuition hikes.

Lucid-Ideas said...

I will start apologizing for 'taking' (using their 'ownership' verb, not ours) Indian 'hunting grounds' when they start apologizing for 'taking' the Crow Creek Crow's 'hunting grounds' and the lives of their women and children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_Creek_massacre

Remember Crow Creek!

Not an oldster. said...

Black reparations,
Red reparations, baby!

I smell a tuition increase coming, and eventually in time, a campus relocation?


It is Ho Chunk land, and unlike the blacks, they have that in writing, it seems.

buwaya said...

Conquest is. The winners take the land, and replace the survivors culture with their own, to some degree.

Apologies? For what? Victory?

mccullough said...

Cheap rhetoric from the university. Close the university and give the land back.

Or the Ho-Chunk could try to take it back.

The land belongs to those who take it and control it.

Rob said...

“the inherent sovereignty of the Ho-Chunk Nation”? What the hell is that supposed to mean? These are academics. You’d think when they write something, it would be more than just empty words strung together. Though actually a great deal of academic writing is equally brainless and formulaic.

rehajm said...

since time immemorial

How long's dat?

doctrev said...

Fine. Let the President IMMEDIATELY expropriate the entire campus without compensation and hand it back to the tribes. Much more profitable than a casino. It should be interesting to see how many mediocre white academics remain on the payroll.

Rick.T. said...

As a person of Irish descent, I still have faint hope for reparations from the Englanders and the Norse.

Dave Begley said...

Headline:The University of Wisconsin's real estate - and, in fact, the entire state of Wisconsin - was stolen from the Indians.

Try this instead. The Tribes negotiated the best deal that they could and took it.

Idea. Change the nickname from Badgers to Indians.

buwaya said...

The losers whine about it, trying to shame their conquerors.
But that doesn't work, unless the point of it all is to use them as a wrapon in a propaganda war between factions of the conquerors.

The losers will never get their land back, unless they actually do conquer it back. Or make it too expensive for the conquerors to hold it, or hold it on the present terms.

buwaya said...

The tribes negotiated a surrender when invaded by a more powerful tribe.

gilbar said...

when both the federal and state government repeatedly, and successfully, sought to forcibly remove the Ho-Chunk from Wisconsin.

So, the Winnebago were SUCCESSFULLY removed from Wisconsin? Then who are these people complaining?

gspencer said...

How to correct the past.

"Later on he had an idea to build a city out of a desert stop-over for GIs going to the West Coast. That kid's name was Moe Greene and the city he invented was Las Vegas. This was a great man. A man of vision and guts."

"And there isn't even a plaque, signpost or statue of him in that town."

Plaques are so magical, n'est pas?

Lucid-Ideas said...

I've come to the conclusion that White people shouldn't be blamed for attacking Native Americans with gunpowder weapons because gunpowder was 'culturally appropriated' from the Chinese who - had they never invented it - wouldn't have spread it's diabolical destruction over the earth. We aren't to blame, the Chinese are.

Incidentally, neither are we to blame for small-pox as the virus 'appropriated' our bodies and used Westerners as a vector to get at the pure and noble savages inhabiting the new world.

But they did give us syphilis to take back to Europe, so it all evens out...

chickelit said...

The gesture bolsters the Israeli's argument for getting their ancestral land back from the occupying Paleostinians, to put the same thing in the context of a modern armed struggle.

Howard said...

Oh, it's so unfair nobody on the internets wants you people around. You people not racis, you are oppressed minority needing special protection from smart people. Break up google, twitter, facebook and big yarn

Sebastian said...

"since time immemorial"

How convenient! You mean, they didn't write the date down? They can't actually show title? Why?

Immemorial just means: since they took the land from the previous occupants.

Fen said...

An institution of higher education is apologizing to primitive barbarians. LOL.

Dear __Mohicans__,
So sorry for the advances in plumbing, mathematics, central air & heat, penicillin, crop rotation, and electricity.. to name just a few. Please take back Massachusetts with our most sincere apologies. Here is a big rock and an ember of fire. Make it count!

Signed
Harvard Faculty

Dave Begley said...

Doesn't the Ho Chunk tribe have a wildly profitable casino in Wisconsin? Why are they complaining?

The thing I hate about identity politics is that certain tribes are favored and others, therefore, have to be hated.

To me, the essence of identity politics was when Bill Clinton told a tiny audience in Omaha, "We'll build windmills on Native American land and we'll all get rich." All? No, the people who will get rich would be the Indians and his buddies running the global warming scam.

Dave Begley said...

I still call Marquette the Warriors. Golden Eagles is just a pathetic nickname. And they've never really been very good since they dropped Warriors.

Lucid-Ideas said...

A memo to Native Americans from METEA (Mammoths for the Ethical Treatment of Extinct Animals):

Dear Descendants of Clovis,

We have a bone to pick with you. You crossed a land-bridge from Asia you had no business in doing so (the sea is a natural border...regardless of reduced level due to ice age) and brought your destructive stone spear point spear and Atatl technology with you. You killed far too many and far more animals than you legitimately needed and in the meantime changed the ecology of the North American Continent. You drove millions of Bison off cliffs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-Smashed-In_Buffalo_Jump) in a veritable 'Auschwitz' of mega-fauna eradication and, quite frankly, we want our land back !!!

Billions of mammoth and mega-fauna ancestors look down on you in shame! And you were supposedly living in harmony with us! Liars!

Sincerely,
METEA

rhhardin said...

Bring back the Indian Red crayola!

doctrev said...

Fen, I might actually get behind that deal. The nation would be better off if the Injuns were permitted to sack (sorry, "practice their culture upon") Harvard, just to remove a primary locus of leftism.

Fen said...

Immemorial just means: since they took the land from the previous occupants.

Tsk tsk. The native peoples were noble savages who raised fairies and unicorns:

For as long as anyone can remember, the Winnebago lived in the vicinity of Green Bay in northeastern Wisconsin. The most powerful tribe in the region,

I'm sure by "powerful" they don't mean they dominated others..

they dominated the western shore of Lake Michigan from Upper Michigan to southern Wisconsin.

Oh... well.. because shut up. That's why.

As part of major climatic change in North America sometime around 1400,

Evil white man and his (spins wheel) Global Warming...

three closely related tribes - Ojibwe, Potawatomi, and Ottawa - began moving west along the shore of Lake Huron towards the point where Lakes Superior, Huron, and Michigan meet. The Ottawa stopped at Manitoulin Island, but the Ojibwe occupied the north shore of Lake Huron including Upper Michigan near Sault Ste. Marie. About 1500 the Potawatomi crossed over the Strait at Mackinac into northern part of the Lower Michigan peninsula. The invasion drove the original tribes of the region south and west. Among the victims were the Menominee and possibly the Cheyenne, Sutai, and Arapaho. The Menominee were forced south where they became tributary and allies of the Winnebago. The Cheyenne and Arapaho, however, were set adrift to the west until they reached the Great Plains.

The Winnebago were obviously powerful enough for the moment to prevent the Ojibwe from moving further south, but the loss of territory and and a growing population must have stressed the resources available to them. From subsequent events, it appears that the Winnebago tried to solve this by moving into southern Wisconsin creating confrontations with the tribes of the Illinois Confederation. With no place to expand, the Winnebago began to separate. Sometime around 1570, the Iowa, Missouri, and Otoe left the Winnebago near Green Bay and moved west. Passing down the Wisconsin River, they crossed the Mississippi and settled in Iowa before separating into individual tribes. Weakened by this defection, the remaining Winnebago concentrated into large villages near Green Bay to defend their homeland against the Ojibwe from the north or Illinois in the south.


http://www.dickshovel.com/win.html

Fernandistein said...

ho-chunk.com says:

Ho-Chunk Gaming Wisconsin is owned and operated by the Ho-Chunk Nation © 2016

Win a Winnebago!

tim maguire said...

Where I live it is standard to open meetings and public functions with a land acknowledgment. It always struck me as silly, partly because the whole thing is based on a theory of inheritance that nobody believes, but mostly because it's so superficial. We're not giving the land back so what are we doing other than making ourselves feel simultaneously guilty and yet superior?

Fen said...

Fen, I might actually get behind that deal. The nation would be better off if the Injuns were permitted to sack (sorry, "practice their culture upon") Harvard, just to remove a primary locus of leftism.

I think we are seeing the solution to Fermi's Paradox: the reason we have not encountered advanced alien species is because, as their civilizations evolved, success and luxury led to the creation of their version of liberals and feminists who brought the civilization back down to it's knees. Probably with a dose of Socialism just to finish it off.

“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck.”
- Heinlein

Howard said...

Blogger rhhardin said...

Bring back the Indian Red crayola!


They have, it's called South Asian Red

doctrev said...

Bad luck indeed, Fen. The old British Empire would be furiously taking notes on such divide and conquer strategies: perhaps Intersectionality is the secret masters of Britain trying to reconquer North America!

We are through the looking glass here, people.

MadisonMan said...

I cringed at the description by the Chancellor of this as being part of a "conversation" about the past. Too many "conversations" are more like "hectoring lectures".

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Howard said...

Fen: are you like me and want to see Starship Troopers remade in serial form as created by John Milius?

Fen said...

I love this line:

About 1500 the Potawatomi crossed over the Strait at Mackinac into northern part of the Lower Michigan peninsula. The invasion drove the original tribes of the region south and west. Among the victims were the Menominee and possibly the Cheyenne, Sutai, and Arapaho.

ie. "We can't really be sure because those Potawatomi bastards pretty much wiped out everyone they came across"

The NYTs refers to them as the "mostly peaceful Potawatomi", like an Antifa rally.

Fen said...

Howard: are you like me and want to see Starship Troopers remade in serial form as created by John Milius?

You know what Howard, if there can only be One Thing we agree on, that's a good choice. ;)

Fernandistein said...

If I were a Ho-Chunk
You were the patsy
Would you come to my casino?
Would you take my pay-out?

AllenS said...

Do the Ho Chunk think that they would have a casino if Muhammad discovered and invaded what we now call America?

Fen said...

Faculty: The past cannot be changed, so the important part is how we -

Engineering School: Wait! We just solved time travel!

Faculty: (awkward silence) ...is how we continue our relationship in the future.

tim maguire said...

Something I learned (perhaps accidentally) from Ken Burns' The West--you can tell which tribes got horses first and which tribes got guns first by looking at maps of tribal areas across time. If one tribe's territory suddenly got a lot bigger and the tribes around them got pushed out, then that tribe got the guns and horses first.

Howard said...

AllenS: Yes. The invaders to America responsible for much of the genocide were mostly Italian and Portuguese, whom are the spawn of the Caliphate. The real sad thought for the native Americans is that the Norge's did not continue their invasion of NA beyond Newfoundland.

Char Char Binks said...

"So sorry for the advances in plumbing, mathematics, central air & heat, penicillin, crop rotation, and electricity.. to name just a few". What have the Romans ever done for us?

"Madison occupies ancestral Ho-Chunk land, a place their nation has called Teejop (de-JOPE)"

I'm sure the Ho-Chunk spelled it "Teejop" with the writing system they didn't have.

CJinPA said...

Tribes: You stole our land!

America: You know we're not giving it back, right?

Tribes: Probably not.

America: So, we're good?

buwaya said...

The give Harvard to the Indians idea might just work.
Sell it with the idea that the faculty and admin seats will go to anyone who seizes them, along with the income from the endowment, and the intellectual accomplishment too. Targeted reparations, and its not like any of that actually belongs to anyone. If it is still vaguely private property its not individual private property. There are no owners.

With a little funding you might get thousands camping on Harvard yard for the warm months.

There really is no reason why the conservative-populist side should forgo making tribal alliances also. The Indians are a natural population for this. They are native after all.

Seeing Red said...

If it were as easy as putting up a plaque. RME.

Sue to get it back.

Seeing Red said...

I understand no wheel either until we came.

Seeing Red said...

I could be wrong.

buwaya said...

Excuse me, you left out the Spanish Howard.
The Spanish led the colonialist league with constant world championships, 1520-1780-ish. Yeah, OK, the British won bigger, later, but not as often. The Yankees started well but choked very quickly.

Caligula said...

"The University of Wisconsin—Madison occupies ancestral Ho-Chunk land"

And who did these ancestors take it from? Surely the Ho-Chunk are not going to claim they were there first before any other humans occupied this land?

The law recognizes the concept of "adverse possession" because it recognizes the need to quiet land titles. Surely something similar operates regarding national territorial claims?

Because every piece of land that any people now occupy was once occupied by someone else (except, perhaps, land created by landfill), demands that prior occupations be recognized can only result in endless irredentist claims. Which, if acted upon, can only result in endless warfare, as no absolute, ultimate solution can ever be found.

The Blackhawk War did open a good deal of Illinois, and parts of Wisconsin, to European settlement. But it's not as if the Ho-Chunk, Potawatomis and other were totally pure and blameless either, as they surely allied themselves with other tribes, and/or with British or the United States, because they hoped to gain advantage them over rivals.

At a minimum, let us consider this thought experiment: Europeans never came to the Americas. Yes, I know, that seems improbable. But perhaps famine and Plague killed practically everyone, and the remainder fought themselves back to the stone age in subsequent European wars of religion.

So no Columbus, no Pizarro, no Europeans in the Americas at all, just an America populated solely by indigenes. In that world, how likely is it that centuries later the Ho_chunk would still occupy these same "ancestral" lands?

Leland said...

Badgers roll over, show belly.

Seeing Red said...

As part of major climatic change in North America sometime around 1400,


That’s impossible.

Michael said...

There were 12 First Nations in Wisconsin. Which was first? And how did they divvy up the land in a peaceful and unwarlike way?

Michael said...

Caligula
Well, they would doubtless be sitting in their Park Avenue penthouses cruising the internets if whitey had not interrupted their cultural and technological progress.

Howard said...

Thanks for the accurate correction buyawa puti. You didn't argue the "spawn of the caliphate" assertion this time. 23&me don't lie

Known Unknown said...

"Fen: are you like me and want to see Starship Troopers remade in serial form as created by John Milius?"

John Millius is my spirit animal.

Lucid-Ideas said...

I think this is Apt.

gspencer said...

Weren't the Winnebagos the first tribe to live the nomadic life in style?

Chanie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
buwaya said...

Indeed Howard.
Since we turned up our Turkish ancestor, a Pasha no less, complete with his seraglio, besides being an actual descendant of the Prophet, there is no point in quibbles.

Wilbur said...

"Bo-Chunk" - I had never encountered the name before this blog post - made me think of two things.

1. Growing up, "Bo-Hunks" was a common name used to describe the descendants of Bohemians and Hungarians (and Eastern Europeans generally) in our small Midwestern city. Never used derisively, the sons and grandsons of those immigrants used it themselves.

2. Blow chunks.

DarkHelmet said...

I, for one, would be totally okay with giving the entire city of Madison to the Ho-Chunk. Actually, all of Dane County. They would have total sovereignty over it. It could become the Midwestern Las Vegas or subsistence hunting grounds, or an entertaining mix of the two.

The only condition: they don't get to vote in Wisconsin or federal elections any longer.

narciso said...

Reverse colonization:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2016/jan/20/this-is-london-by-ben-judah-review

tcrosse said...

Rogers and Hart had it all figured out back in 1939:
Give it back to the Indians

Fernandistein said...

Blow chunks.

#metoo. But maybe it's better than being named after a motorhome.

Curious George said...

"The past cannot be changed, so the important part is how we continue our relationship in the future."
Said Wilfrid Cleveland, President of Ho-Chunk Nation


That's just the fire water talkin...

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

buwaya: The Spanish led the colonialist league with constant world championships, 1520-1780-ish. Yeah, OK, the British won bigger, later, but not as often. The Yankees started well but choked very quickly.

I think some analysis with the "the past is never dead, it's not even past" tool is applicable here. The Spanish and Anglo conquerors didn't go away; they're still at it. (From the long view "British" and "Yankee" blur together.)

The whole "Hispanic" thing in the U.S., ostensibly all about poor Anglo-oppressed indigenes and mestizos, can be seen as just the current manifestation of the centuries-old Spanish (Latin American)-British (Anglo-American) rivalry - that is, a whitey v. whitey action. Except this time 'round the Anglo ptbs have been siding with their Spanish class brethren against the Anglos lower down on the totem pole. (According to this theory the traditional cultural and civic norms of Anglo civilization get tiresome for elites impatient to really get their elitist swank on.)

The alliance has been pretty successful, what with getting ordinary Anglos to enthusiastically participate in burning down their own house and desecrating the graves of their forefathers. Points to Hispano-man for keeping the long game going, while Anglo-man was busy selling his birthright for a mess o' Clown World pottage.

Humperdink said...

Is this plaque going to occupy the same site where the Confederate Rest cemetery monument was jerked out from Camp Randall? (Asking for a friend)

PM said...

Pre-Columbian America - North, Central and South - was filled with intertribal murder, rape, theft, blood-feuds and wholesale "cleansing" - as has occurred from our cave days. What Europe brought to the West were better weapons, armor and horses - deadly advantages. World history, no matter where or when, is comprised of three components: trade, conquest and intermarriage. Not always all three, but always at least two.

buwaya said...

An interesting dynamic in the history of the European imperial expansion -

I don't know who else may have noticed this -

The Europeans who set off on those little ships skipped over, or around, their near-neighbors. They went off to conquer some distant parts of the world, usually on a shoestring. On the very opposite side, of the world, much of it, and usually the conquering was done by a handful of intrepid semi-pirates.

But what about those places next door? Why didn't the Euros bother with that? Why didn't these little bands of desperados on cheap ships just pop over across the Med? Morocco isn't chopped liver, neither is the rest of the North African shore, and Egypt certainly was a prize worth having in the 16th century, no less than it was for Rome 1500 years earlier.

And then there were the Balkans and the Levant.

The truth is though that the Euros did try, very hard. Portugal invaded and took places on the Moroccan coast, and finally intervened massively in 1578. The problem was that the Moroccans kept taking back those towns and fortresses the Portuguese took, and ended by inflicting a massive defeat on a state-of-the-art Portuguese army at Alcácer Quibir in 1578. The Spanish were in the same state, taking and losing points east of the Portuguese sphere of influence, and they also found it hard going. Charles I (V to non-Spaniards), the usually victorious, failed badly at Algiers in 1541. And so on.

All this effort was vastly greater than either kingdom ever put into its distant colonial conquests. What Charles I/V put into failing to take Algiers was on a scale that could have won him thirty or forty Mexicos or Perus. And he was not the last to fail before some fortress on the North African coast.

None of Europe's neighbors could be taken and held for long until the 19th century, and Turkey not at all.

My theory is that Europe's near neighbors were entirely prepared to match Europe militarily, not with similar military systems, but with their own evolved equivalents. In other words they were particularly tough nuts, near-equivalent adversaries until the technology race left them far enough behind to make them vulnerable. But until then it was entirely human factors that kept them out of European reach.

There was no Clive of Morocco or Cortes of Algeria. Bengal and Mexico were very soft targets.

stlcdr said...

Wasn't it the Europeans that conquered and massacred the native landscape that we know formally call the United States? Shouldn't they be paying reparations?

narciso said...

an interesting place for a chronology,

https://www.marxists.org/history/algeria/1501-1913.htm

like I say there has been al hijra, invasion through immigration that has reversed the process to a degree,

Spaceman said...

Professors and administrators houses are probably on Ho-Chunk land. Deed them back over to the Ho-Chunk nation as reparations

Howard said...

buwaya puti: The age of discovery immediately followed the end of the crusades. I think the Europeans had enough of the Mohammedan at that point.

JamesB.BKK said...

The past cannot be changed, but the present and future sure can. If UW is sincere, it can remediate the land by removing all structures and improvements and deed it to those Indians. Indians will need to give up use of the wheel and steam engine? But about those Indians: how many did they kill mercilessly to remove from and to take control of that land? Since time immemorial? Their ancestors came from Asia not long ago.

Swede said...

Nope.

Shut it down and give them back their land.

Then each white liberal needs to spit in a vial for 23 and Me, find out where they're mostly from, and get theirs asses back there, pronto.

They can pay reparations on their way out of the country.

Anything less than that would expose these liberals for the hypocrites they are.