June 27, 2019

"Shocking as it sounds, I thought it would help him. And shocking as it sounds, I was correct... because it is a masculine, powerful, leader-like thing to do to take what you want, to have as many women for your own pleasure as you can take."

Says E. Jean Carroll, speaking on the NYT "Daily" podcast, answering the question why she did not tell her story before the 2016 election.

I strongly recommend listening to the entire podcast. We hear Carroll tell her version of the story, and we hear the 2 women who received phone calls from Carroll shortly after the alleged incident. One, Lisa Birnbach (the author of "The Official Preppy Handbook"), says that Carroll laughed as she recounted her story and that Birnbach had to tell her that it was rape and wanted to take her to the police right away.  The other woman, Carol Martin, says she told Carroll that Trump had a lot of lawyers, that there would be no end of trouble if she were to make an accusation of rape, that she should tell no one, and that she'd be better off getting on with her life. If the incident and the 2 conversations took place as the 3 women describe, then it's clear that Carroll — who is herself a big advice columnist — took the second woman's advice.

E. Jean Carroll continues to say that she does not regard what happened as rape. She tells a story in which she was having a fun time interacting with Trump and she willingly and laughingly rode up the elevator with him at Bergdorf's on his idea that she help him shop for lingerie. She had her ideas of how the scene would play out and, as she tells it, imagined getting him to put on the lingerie. In her telling of the story, she was surprised that he got very sexually aggressive as soon as the door to the dressing room closed, but she's clear that she never said anything. Not only didn't she scream for help, in her version of the story, she doesn't say "No," or "Stop," or "Don't." I get the impression — from her words — that she was taken aback that he used absolutely no foreplay and that she thought she had a fantastic story to tell. But the first person she told the story to, Lisa Birnbach, threw cold water on it.

In the podcast, Carroll says this about her refusal to call it rape: "Every woman gets to choose her word. Every woman gets to choose how she describes it. This is my way of saying it. This is my word. My word is fight. My word is not the victim word. I have not been raped. Something has not been done to me. I fought." That made me think of gender diversity and the idea that we humans don't have to accept the conventional categories "male" and "female." There's much more to sex than what the legal system defines and labels "rape." You can tell your own version of the facts (and you can embellish and exaggerate and you can slant and you can lie). If you don't invoke the criminal justice system, you can use the words you want to express yourself. Carroll is notably choosing not to use the word "rape" while describing actions that, legally, are rape. She has her reasons. She's a writer who has written a book that's about a lifetime of sexual encounters, many of which were bad.

Carroll is open to the accusation that she is lying (or crazy), and that's part of speaking publicly. She's also open to a defamation lawsuit. There is criminal law (which she's eschewed) and there is civil law (which she can't opt out of). Will Trump sue her for libel? Or will he just stick to his story that he never knew her and that she's not "his type"? Carroll and Trump are — I think it's fair to say — longtime participants in a NYC scene in which people had a lot of high-spirited sex which they may have enjoyed or suffered from at the time and which they look back on with whatever interpretations they may find. They can talk about it now — including lying about it now — as much as they want.

But what are we supposed to do about it? I do think Trump knew her and is lying to say that he didn't. I suspect that some incident did take place, but Carroll can only tell it through the interpretations that have formed and reformed in her mind over the years. She's writing in what I think is a memoir style, where her own story predominates, and I don't think there's an effort to portray the story as he may have experienced it subjectively. At the time, there was the idea that "no means no" and a decent man had to stop at "no." But the idea of a requirement of "affirmative consent" was just emerging, and even on Carroll's telling of the story, I can see how a man of that time may have felt he had an opportunity and he could take it, indeed, that the masculine, powerful, leader-like thing to do is to take what you want, to have as many women for your own pleasure as you can take.

Birnbach visited some consciousness-raising on Carroll, but Carroll wasn't ready to go there back then. Time has passed, and #MeToo happened, and Carroll did some soul-searching and book-writing. I think that's valuable, but also that it's too late to do anything to Trump about it. He was a bad boyfriend. That's for sure, and that's something we've known about him all along. He didn't claim to be a good boyfriend. He's been open about that, even if he's lying about Carroll now.

244 comments:

1 – 200 of 244   Newer›   Newest»
BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

We must buy her story!

No sale.

Gahrie said...

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/06/omg-crackpot-trump-accuser-stole-her-rape-story-from-law-and-order-episode-of-rape-fantasy-in-bergdorf-dressing-room-video/

Lurker21 said...

And this woman is an advice columnist?

Darrell said...

It happened in her head--whether now or years ago.
That makes it herstory.
She can live in Chuck's basement when her moment is over.

Shouting Thomas said...

I stopped reading your rant after several paragraphs, Althouse.

You've gone nuts with Marxist feminist porn.

You've confused yourself beyond help with that asshole ideology.

Get a grip.

Go back to "The Handmaid's Tale" and really whack off to feminist porn.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Bad boyfriend? You’re assuming there was a girlfriend he was wanting to buy lingerie for.

Lucid-Ideas said...

Professor Althouse,

That is one hell of a word-salad you tossed, but as Ms. Carroll states you get to choose your word. Have you considered sending a CV to Anderson Cooper to be his publicist?

"You can't make a fruitcake without a cutting up a bunch of fruit."

- Vladimir 'Buntcake' Lenin

wild chicken said...

I think Carroll is correct about most things but you simply can't say those things now.

Sounds like she has enough contemporaneous evidence to defend a libel suit. The expense though.

narayanan said...

Gahrie said ... https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/06/omg-crackpot-trump-accuser-stole-her-rape-story-from-law-and-order-episode-of-rape-fantasy-in-bergdorf-dressing-room-video/

OR in Bizarro world - Trump and Carroll did the plot pitch for the episode based on earlier life experience ??!!!

Chuck is vindicated - yeaa for Chuck

Swede said...

Sooooooo.......still crazy, then?

chickelit said...

This stuff is more boring than the Dem debates.

chuck said...

Strange, my impression has been that he was a good boyfriend. Sure, he screwed around, but that isn't the same thing as bad, some folks are like that. Carroll, for instance, was like that.

Fen said...

I asked the women here yesterday, I'll ask again:

If I invited you on a shopping trip to model lingerie in a private room for me, would you take the invitation at face value or would you assume I was setting up a sexual encounter?

If so, and if you did not want to have sex with me, would you still come along and model lingerie for me in a private room?

zipity said...


This woman is clearly a lunatic, and the Lame Stream Media© parading her around their shows indicates just how badly they are afflicted with Trump Derangement Syndrome.

A few gems from this Looney-Tune:

“ I think most people think of rape as being sexy…” - E. Jean Carroll to Anderson Cooper

Cooper immediately cut to break
-----------------------------------------------------------

"E. Jean Carroll tells @Lawrence that she will not seek rape charges against Donald Trump because it would be "disrespectful" to women at the border "who are being raped around the clock"
---------------------------------------------------------------
E. Jean Carroll says she wishes she would have asked @realDonaldTrump for his TAX RETURNS when she allegedly met him at the Bergdorf Goodman department store in the mid 90's .
--------------------------------------------------------------
E. Jean Carroll tells MSNBC she and Trump were at Bergdorf Goodman, looking at a 'beautiful, filmy gray, see-through' item of lingerie. They went to a dressing room. Why? 'I have the idea that I'm going to make him put it on over his pants.'
------------------------------------------------------------

They ask her twice if she’s willing to have the dress checked for Trump’s DNA and the NYPD has offered to check it. She refuses.

If you don’t find that fishy then I can’t help you.
---------------------------------------------------------------

narciso said...

Lisa Birnbach of the preppy handbook umcay so they have the date this happened.

rhhardin said...

She's working out the place of women in the world, in the world she's working out. Trump is a place-holder.

doctrev said...

It may tempt you to believe Ann Althouse because she is a professor of law, and theoretically that profession deserves respect, but let's look at the facts.

- EJ Carroll said that Hunter Thompson told her to get in a tub and sliced off her leggings. This is a lie: it happened to a young woman sent to interview Thompson, and Carroll now claims an identical incident happened to her.
- More than a decade after the alleged incident with Trump, an identical fantasy in the same department store was part of a plot on SVU. This is right there on the episode script.
- If you can molest a woman in Bergdorf's, then see her run in dishabille out of the store, then elite New York department stores have poorer security than Wal-Mart. In other words, it goes from being a total fabrication to being a STUPID lie.

So, why does Althouse publish fan fiction about Trump and Carroll as the truth? Does it speak to the degraded position of American law in civic life? Or does it relate to the appeal of Twilight to women of a certain age? Personally, I think it links to the unconscious desire that many American women have for Donald Trump. It's not simply seeking the truth: they are simply overwhelmed with weird feelings in their ladyparts. But they can't even address them in public, in the face of vast ridicule and potentially being terminated from their jobs, so they discuss lurid fantasies- but ones in which they Strongly and Independently fight off the Trump Monster. That part is super important.

Okay, that started out as a joke, but now I'm convinced. Donald Trump is the Christian Gray of American politics, and EJ Carroll correctly realized that she can get a metric buttload of press from aiming an love-hate arrow right at the babymakers of American women. Shine on, you crazy diamond.

rcocean said...

We need to do something about this sort of libel - which it is. We can't let left-wing kooky women keep on doing this. 100 Women called the FBI and said Kavanaugh assaulted them.

You believe it took place, even though SHE CAN"T REMEMBER THE YEAR. And did she talk about how well she knew Trump? What is the purpose of saying stuff like "Well, I think he knew her" - What does SHE Say? Has anyone ASKED HER?

The fact that 2 of her "Gal Pals" decided they hate Trump and back up her story is irrelevant. Anita Hill had "Gal pals" Too. And so did Ford. They ALL DO. Oh yeah, she told me blah,blah, 25 years ago.

Vet66 said...

Timing is everything and her's is self-serving and akin to the recent attacks on Judge Kavanaugh. Liberals are without shame and will not be deterred from breaking laws, lying, and general mayhem for their narrative. Her statement that rape us "sexy" and an insult to those who have been raped, Her story is little more than a bodice ripping cheap novel. Predictable, boring, and a planned character assassination.

mccullough said...

If nothing else, Carroll is not a person whose advice one should follow. She’s a dingbat like Stormy Daniels. And like Stormy she’s out for a buck and was back in 1995.

Trump’s taste in women is what it is. Caroll was a wiling participant like Stormy.

Fernandistein said...

E. Jean Carroll ... tells a story

"Who will buy my sweet red book? Two pages for a penny."

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

CNN Transcrip

E. JEAN CARROLL: I was not thrown on the ground and ravished. Which, the word "rape" carries so many sexual connotations. This was not sexual. It just, it hurt.

{{{{my take: [She wanted to be ravished. Women have sex drive, too. Dressing room/lingerie - scene sex. She admits she wanted to be ravished but that her recollection decades later was that "he" didn't ravish her to her liking. Twist it into painful sex, and boom - you got a nice rape story. How convenient. BTW - do we even buy the dressing room story? It sounds like a story. BS]}}}}

ANDERSON COOPER: I think most people think of rape as a violent assault. It is not sexual--

E. JEAN CARROLL: I think most people think of rape as being sexy.

ANDERSON COOPER: Let's take a short break.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Think of the fantasies.

ANDERSON COOPER: We're going to take a short break. If you could stick around we can talk more.

E. JEAN CARROLL: You're fascinating to talk to.

Is she drunk?

She comes off as a lunatic wanting to sell a book.

rcocean said...

Where is the objective proof? There is none. She obviously hasn't seen Trump and talked to him for 25 years. Did she know him before this? It doesn't seem so. And guess what there's a TV show that has the same thing, in 2012 an episode of SUV had a rape in Bergdorf dressing room. Maybe EJC watched the show.

Again, its like Ford. The two never met after the so-called attack, and they didn't know each other except as friends of friends. And Ford couldn't remember the place or the year. She was REAL credible.

Fernandistein said...

So, why does Althouse publish fan fiction about Trump and Carroll as the truth?

She has obsessions about weird sex.

doctrev said...

Shouting Thomas said...

Go back to "The Handmaid's Tale" and really whack off to feminist porn.

6/27/19, 8:28 AM

Thank you, Thomas. The Handmaid's Tale is basically Gor for Strong Independent Womyn. They have high status in the patriarchal society because of their hotness and fertility, as opposed to the frigid and above all OLD commander's wives, yet they obviously can't admit to liking sex with their masters, so the relationships have to be buried under layers and layers of rape.

In an actual world where babies are valued above everything and women are truly reduced to being property, Strong Independent Womyn would have their hands and feet hacked off, and repeatedly IVF'ed until they die from exhaustion. You wouldn't get "resistance" because the women would betray each other relentlessly in pursuit of position, and the commander's wives would insist on taking the whole harem out for fun, like attending public executions of disobedient handmaids. Women didn't liberate themselves from Milosevic, Hitler, or even American slaveholders.

iowan2 said...

This is why "believe all women" is a lie.

I know the media is busy setting the narrative for 2020 election. 17+ months from now, but this story has slid off the media play list. My guess, it will go silent until about the Democrat convention, then revived as one of several of the past talking points that didn't work before, but will now.

Lucid-Ideas said...

@Fernandistein

Buy the book
Read the book
Tuppence,
Tuppence,
Tuppence a page!

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Blasey Ford was full of shit, too.
Did anyone buy her "fear of flying"?

rcocean said...

One scream from EJC and Trump's life would've been in ruins. So he's going to go after a 52 y/o Giraffe and commit rape, risk jail, end his marriage to Maples, because what, she's into shark week?

Rumpletweezer said...

If true, Trump broke one of the basic rules of life:

Never have sex with someone who's crazier than you are.

narciso said...

Actually heinleins estate for ripping off 'if this goes on' from 1941.

Shouting Thomas said...

Althouse and feminist women have obviously been playing drama queen to the hilt over rape for 60 years.

This shit has all the elements that appeal to drama queen women who want to get over heated while still wagging their Puritan fingers at heterosexual men. "You-said-she-said. I'm so hot the men can't restrain themselves from jumping me! Let's gossip!"

Note that Althouse, in addition to the constant rape fantasies, adores gay men.

What a fucking mess U.S. women have sloshing around in their noggins.

In the not so distant future, women will reverse their drama queen roles yet again, as they get tired of fantasizing about rape... because this is driving men away. They'll go back to congratulating themselves on their courageous zipless fucking.

Men are just bit players in the feminist drama queen's porn.

This shit is as serious as a change of fashion in clothing. Except that it destroys men. Which is, you know, OK.

rcocean said...

She's an obvious nut. She's selling a book. Trump should sue her for libel.

Leland said...

There is too much similarity between the Law and Order SVU and her story. The episode first aired January 11, 2012. She claims the event happened in the 1990s. It is possible she told the story of a real event to the writers (or someone in production), who then put it into the show. Both her story and TV episode describe the same event at the same location and as a fantasy ritual.

I can't say it completely discredits her story now, but any "investigation" of her claims should involve talking to the writers to determine how they came up with their script.

she will not seek rape charges against Donald Trump because it would be "disrespectful" to women at the border "who are being raped around the clock"

I would think it more disrespectful to describe forced penetration as a fantasy not worthy of being called rape. I'll also note that Trump has noted that women at the border are being raped and that the US Government should act.

rcocean said...

"Did anyone buy her "fear of flying"?"

Ford was afraid of flying, except when she went overseas to Surf, or to her friends place every year in Delaware.

traditionalguy said...

The Mormon;s High and Exalted One Romney believes Trump should have married her first. But that means E. Jean would replace Melania as First Lady. That would be fun to watch.

doctrev said...

Blogger rcocean said...
One scream from EJC and Trump's life would've been in ruins. So he's going to go after a 52 y/o Giraffe and commit rape, risk jail, end his marriage to Maples, because what, she's into shark week?

6/27/19, 8:50 AM

Ah, but this only emphasizes the power that the TrumpMonster has over women. More than their tingly bits, it is their minds which Trump leaps into, and with the power of the Presidency they now believe he has near godlike abilities over them. In 99% of cases, they simply aren't pretty enough for Trump to bother with, and they know it, but let's put that aside for a moment.

By coincidence, Stormy Daniels is in real trouble financially, and is trying to get her money back from her federally-indicted lawyer. Trump should make her walk around in public with American-flag nipple pasties and a leash... then you could smell the frustrated Strong Womyn from across the block.

rcocean said...

People need to stop talking about "its possible". Of course its "Possible". If you make any story VAGUE Enough - no one can disprove it.

That's why Ford and EJC didn't give specific dates. They couldn't even remember the YEAR. Because if they did, their victim could've proven they weren't there but somewhere else. How is Trump supposed to prove he didn't go Bergdorf's for 10 minutes sometime between Fall 1995 and Spring 1996? He can't.

mccullough said...

Romney keeps stepping in it. He’s pissed because he feels used after Trump grabbed him by the pussy. But Romney let Trump do it. He went to Trump begging for a job.

Romney modeled lingerie for Trump. Guy has no self respect. Neither does Carroll.

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
doctrev said...

mccullough said...

Romney modeled lingerie for Trump. Guy has no self respect. Neither does Carroll.

6/27/19, 8:56 AM

He showed off the holy underwear for Trump! Well, that does tie together quite a few hypotheses, doesn't it.

Humperdink said...

This woman's 15 minutes of fame concluded a few days ago. Surprised our hostess is trying to resurrect it.

traditionalguy said...

Seriously, this lady seems to want to test drive the men that she meets to see if despite being a strong man they will easily submit to sexy women's wiles.

It's all a silly game to her. Thank God for birth control.

doctrev said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mccullough said...

Daniels owes Trump more than $300,000 in legal fees. She’s going to have to work off that debt.

Fen said...

So, why does Althouse publish fan fiction about Trump and Carroll as the truth? Does it speak to the degraded position of American law in civic life? Or does it relate to the appeal of Twilight to women of a certain age? Personally, I think it links to the unconscious desire that many American women have for Donald Trump. It's not simply seeking the truth: they are simply overwhelmed with weird feelings in their ladyparts.

A lot of guys experience this first-hand. When I was young and still trying to figure out women, I actually listened to them as if they knew what they wanted from a man (LOL). Which inadvertently cast me in the role of Uncle Fen, every gals best friend, willing to sit down all night with a gallon of ice cream and listened intently to "how my boyfriend wronged me!". Yes, it was that pathetic - being a confidant to the girl I loved, trying to make myself into the man she claimed to want, then watching as she hopped in the back seat with the first guy who slapped her on the ass like a whore.

So I finally wised up and cultivated a Bad Boy personae. Learned how to be a jackass. And I was fighting the girls off with a stick. In 6 months I had more sex than I had my entire life.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

I'll repeat myself.

E Jean admits to Cooper that she wanted to be ravished. Women have sex drive, too. Dressing room/lingerie - it's a sexy scene. E Jean says she was NOT ravished. Oh what a disappointment.
Her recollection, instead, decades later, is that "he" didn't ravish her to her liking. There was no ravishing. Or perhaps he did ravish her? Do we know? For political reasons, and book sales, Twist the story into "painful sex", or "bad lover" and boom - you got a nice rape story. How convenient.

BTW - do we even buy the dressing room story anyway? It's a story in a public setting. Sounds like a fantasy. It's sounds like a TV show. Columbo?

She's into that fantasy stuff. Said so straight away to Anderson, the interesting sexy man next to her on the set. oooo - ponder of the sexual possibles.


Fantasy is big on CNN and MSNBC these days.

rcocean said...

This is only going to end when some Republican gals with a taste for publicity come out and start accusing Joe Biden and some high level dems. Once the Democrats start getting on the receiving end of these fake accusation, they'll start being more responsible.

Fen said...

Is she drunk?

No, like most American women, she is insane.

Seriously. As a I grew up dating womern, that was added to my list of qualities I was looking for in a mate. Initially it was:

1) easy on the eyes
2) smarter than me
3) sense of humor

After 10 years of Teh Crazy I was forced to add a 4th, and it disqualed most my dates:

4) must be sane

I don't know what it is. Probably something in the birth control, or maybe some psychotic split from having too much opportunity and choice foisted on them all at once.



rcocean said...

Of course its a fantasy. Of course its made up. she hates trump. she used Bill O'Reilly's picture for target practice. She's your typical screaming-left journalist.

But we're supposed to believe she DID NOT want to influence the 2016 election and help Hillary - so she didn't bring it up.

Isn't it funny how the liberals are NOT screaming at EJC "Why didn't you bring it up in 2016?! We could have defeated Trump!" - this alone proves they know the charge is bogus.

doctrev said...

Blogger rcocean said...
This is only going to end when some Republican gals with a taste for publicity come out and start accusing Joe Biden and some high level dems. Once the Democrats start getting on the receiving end of these fake accusation, they'll start being more responsible.

6/27/19, 9:00 AM

This has already happened with Bill Clinton, Dominique Strauss-Khan, and Harvey Weinstein. Not to mention the large number of gay men in Hollywood who engage in similar stunts, of which Bryan Singer is merely the most visible rapist. In fact, most of the screamery is to cover for their rapes- which is why Althouse's fantasy fiction isn't merely an amusement to watch, but necessary to debunk at every stage.

rcocean said...

She's crazy. She's twice divorced. She's has no children.

She's the perfect person to give dating and marriage advice!

Shouting Thomas said...

Probably something in the birth control, or maybe some psychotic split from having too much opportunity and choice foisted on them all at once.

The go to schools like the University of Wisconsin where they are indoctrinated in Althouse's Marxist feminism at taxpayer expense.

cacimbo said...

"Not only didn't she scream for help, in her version of the story, she doesn't say "No," or "Stop," or Don't.""

Not only doesn't she say stop - according to quotes from the book wwww printed in a previous comment section she kept laughing the entire time. Just as she had laughed during the entire encounter that led to her agreeing to enter the dressing room. So no, that doesn't sound like rape to me. I have read that she claims to have been rape and/or sexually assaulted by six different men while she was in her 50's. Maybe she doesn't feel comfortable calling it rape because in her heart she knows it wasn't. This is a mature woman, not some naive girl, yet six different men somehow wrongly got the impression she was was interested. Doesn't make sense - she knows she encouraged these encounters.

rcocean said...

"This has already happened with Bill Clinton, Dominique Strauss-Khan, and Harvey Weinstein."

No. Those were all specific charges with specific dates and times. And the only pol you've listed is Bill Clinton. And I don't care about some Frog.

narciso said...

Except dsk and Weinstein hired ex company (in closing thr father of the drone program) and ex mossad to stalk the accusers

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

I DO believe the 1,225.5 women who came out to confess the Kavanaugh raped them.

Leland said...

It is funny that Althouse didn't know who this woman was despite her being "famous", yet thinks Trump is lying about knowing nothing about this woman. And bad/good boyfriend doesn't seem like an argument for knowing another woman.

As for her legal jeopardy, what is it? She may be opening herself up to violations of criminal and civil law, but what's the threat? More specifically, what is there for Trump to gain from filing suit? His reputation wouldn't change even if found innocent. A trial gives defendant trial lawyers a chance to seek all sort of items to embarrass Trump. And the trial would certainly last longer than the 2020 campaign cycle. Everyone knows this, so she is perfectly safe to make such allegations, so long as she doesn't file a false report to officials.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Fen

There's some insanity there. But if you watch the CNN clip, she seems a bit drunk.

wendybar said...

Fen said...
I asked the women here yesterday, I'll ask again:

If I invited you on a shopping trip to model lingerie in a private room for me, would you take the invitation at face value or would you assume I was setting up a sexual encounter?

If so, and if you did not want to have sex with me, would you still come along and model lingerie for me in a private room?
6/27/19, 8:37 AM


I am old school and was taught personal responsibility. NO I would NOT have gone into the dressing room with a man to try on lingerie, and YES I would think that if I did go, he would probably expect something.

This whole "It wasn't her fault" Trump is bad thing is why he will get re-elected. They have gone nuts thinking you can't blame women for the things THEY decided to do.

Otto said...

"That made me think of gender diversity and the idea that we humans don't have to accept the conventional categories "male" and "female." "

Typical cultural Marxism tripe coming from Ann.

doctrev said...

rcocean said...
No. Those were all specific charges with specific dates and times. And the only pol you've listed is Bill Clinton. And I don't care about some Frog.
6/27/19, 9:07 AM

Yes, -obviously- the charges against leftist functionaries are much more specific, because they actually happened. You should care about what happened, regardless of whether they are American politicians or not, because they happened on American soil. If anything, punishing the super wealthy who think they have a license to rape, as Weinstein apparently thinks he has, is even more important than punishing Bill Clinton.

Lurker21 said...

What's missing from the story is how the friends reacted when Trump was running for president. If some incident with Trump happened and Carroll told friends about it wouldn't somebody have been clamoring for her to go public? Wouldn't they be telling us about that now?

One possibility is that it never happened. Another is that some incident happened with somebody and she told friends about it and now they "remember" that it was about Trump. Still another possibility is that something happened with Trump, but she's built on it and embellished it in her mind over the years.

Assuming that there's any truth at all in her story - which is a big assumption - the part about the ...uh, member ... which she doesn't know where it was, but it could have been inside her, sounds like an embellishment. If they actually met and something happened, it was more like consensual fondling that got out of hand, but Birnbach's "woke" attitude stoked Carroll's imagination, which has been working on the story since then, further embellishing it.

Birnbach was a pernicious influence on her generation with her "preppy" nonsense.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

E JEAN CARROLL: "I was not thrown on the ground and ravished. Which, the word "rape" carries so many sexual connotations. This was not sexual. It just, it hurt."

E. JEAN CARROLL: "I think most people think of rape as being sexy."

E. JEAN CARROLL: "Think of the fantasies."


There's a confession in there. Trump raped her, because it hurt. Bad lover. No ravishing as was hoped. It also hurt to see Hillary lose. It hurt deep inside. Trump raped everybody. Book sales and CNN air time will soothe the pain.

Mike Sylwester said...

Yesterday I watched the 1984 movie A Passage to India. I had not watched it before. This is one of the best movies I ever have watched in my life.

The movie won only two Academy Awards, but it was nominated for nine awards -- including Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actress, Best Screenplay and Best Cinematography.

The story is about a British woman who accuses an Indian man of sexual assault in India. A trial is conducted, during which the woman surprisingly retracts her accusation.

It never is clear to the movie audience -- even at the movie's end -- what happened between the woman and the man in the incident. My own understanding was that she experienced a hallucination while under enormous physical and emotional stress. The man was not even in her immediate presence during the incident.

Although she reported the assault to a police investigator and signed a written deposition, she realized while in the witness chair during the trial that the assault had not really happened. Since she "had been brought up to always tell the truth", she immediately withdrew her entire accusation.

This movie is three hours long, but it captivated me during its entire length. I highly recommend watching it.

n.n said...

The two women were not direct witnesses. Their testimony does not affect the credibility of her allegation. The problem for Carroll is the same: independent witnesses (e.g forensic evidence) to confirm her experience.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

False reporting against Trump is the name of the game.

Smolette left.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

“Describing actions that, legally, are rape”

Suppose that Trump were to admit that the encounter happened much as she described. Can’t he argue that he had her affirmative laughing consent up through her decision to push him out of her? If we accept that consent can be withdrawn at any time, don’t we have to also accept that it might take the man a moment to get the message, especially when the no is delivered nonverbally? After the brief fight, which she started, he will point out, he did let her go. That’s Trump’s argument that there was no rape even if we accept her story. And isn’t that her story too?

We can judge Trump’s behavior as severely reprehensible without callling him a rapist.

On Trump saying she’s not his type, the two theories I’ve seen here is that he means that she doesn’t measure up to his standard of beauty or that she was too smart for him. I would suggest a third meaning, she wasn’t the type to let him do it.




Fen said...

"That made me think of gender diversity and the idea that we humans don't have to accept the conventional categories "male" and "female."

Yah, I've been doing the same experiment with conventional categories like Gravity and Thermodynamics.

So far it's not going well.

But Saturday has hope. I'm taking a class of 30 students to the cliffs in Rockville park for some prac-ap in Anti-grav flight. If you BELIEVE you can fly...

I'm looking for a few chaperones if any of you are interested. No film please.

n.n said...

#MeToo #SheKnew #SheProgressed undermined credible claims.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

If I invited you into my dressing room at Bergdorf Goodman, wearing nothing but lingerie, I would be terrified that someone who works there would find out. Dressing room doors have slats.

But - well, OK for fantasy sake, just in case, because I AM E Jean Carrol for a moment, a sexual being in need of ravishing and sexual fantasy - I might invite Donald Trump into my dressing room for sex. If the sex is not good enough, I'll fink on him decades later when it is convenient to do so.

Leland said...

Fen, your question also misses another aspect of 1990's Donald Trump. He had the money to hire actual models to model lingerie for him wherever he wanted to have a show. So knowing he could do that, if such a man asked an individual woman to do so for free, in a private room at a department store, would you think he wanted a bit more than just to see how the lingerie looked on a woman?

tim maguire said...

If I met her at a party, I bet I'd think she was a hoot.

But a reliable narrator? I'm trying to keep an open mind, but it comes across more like she is trying very hard to walk that fine line between a neat anecdote to sell her book and an accusation that can have consequences for her and/or for Trump.

Mike Sylwester said...

Following up my own comment at 9:17 AM
she realized while in the witness chair during the trial that the assault had not really happened

I suppose I should not have spoiled the movie's climax for people who have not watched it, but that climax is why I wrote about the movie in this thread.

I will add that the woman also had been fantasizing about sex during the days before the incident. That is part of the reason why she thought she had been sexually assaulted.

Anyway, this movie is tremendous. You will enjoy watching it even though I have spoiled it somewhat before you watch it.

Kay said...

Dang, no foreply. Ouch.

AZ Bob said...

She invites a man into a private dressing room to watch her put on sexy underwear and doesn’t say “no” when he proceeds to have sex with her.

Is this supposed to be a close call?

Char Char Binks said...

"It was rape, but at the same time not rape" is reason enough for me not to bother with this story.

readering said...

Interesting to contrast comments here to those on handsy Biden.

Fen said...

I think I'm going to make a fortune off liberal women with my new interactive book

1) I was...

a) walking along the river
b) practicing my serve on the tennis court
c) dropping the kids off at school
d) speaking at a business meeting

2) When all of a sudden, Donald Trump said:

a) "You look really hot in those yoga pants"
b) "Come around back for some private instruction
c) "What were your plans for the rest of the day
d) "I've never seen a sexier algorithm"

3)...

PAYWALL. Please contribute $14.99 to continue

Fen said...

readering: Interesting to contrast comments here to those on handsy Biden.

Really? Do it. I dare you.

It's always unfounded allegations and unsupported assertions with you Dems.

Mike Sylwester said...

You will enjoy watching it even though I have spoiled it somewhat before you watch it.

Also, I think that practically the entire movie audience thinks -- by the time that the trial begins -- that the Indian man did not actually assault the British woman.

hombre said...

Is there some reason to believe that women who lie about sexual “incidents” for political purposes don’t consort with other women who would lie in support for political purposes? Joining Anita Hill and Christine Ford as Heroes of the Sovi..., er, Pussyhat Union - so to speak.

Fen said...

I think that practically the entire movie audience thinks -- by the time that the trial begins -- that the Indian man did not actually assault the British woman.

And it's still good, even after the suspense is lifted? I'll give it a whirl. Thanks.

buwaya said...

I used to teach thermodynamics. Well, I was a TA.

Nature is nature, and it takes extreme cleverness to find a loophole in how it works.
The best we can do so far is try to understand how it works in the first place, and make use of that, but even that is hard going. It is too easy to make mistakes, which is why Murphys law is the first principle of engineering.

As for biology, we can deny it or fail at it or pretend to overcome it. The human mind is a weird thing and can easily substitute fantasy for reality, even in thermodynamics. But reality exists anyway. People and their societies have a thousand ways to exclude themselves from the gene pool, but it all comes at a cost of biological failure.

Kay said...

I’m interested in the idea that this scandal actually helps the Donald. I think that might be accurate, but not necessarily for the reasons Carroll states.

Michael K said...

Blogger readering said...
Interesting to contrast comments here to those on handsy Biden.


Interesting to contrast video evidence with Biden to zero evidence with this nut.

You're welcome.

chuck said...

I don't see what the problem is here. Carroll has entertaining, sexy memories that she can sell, even if it didn't happen. If it makes Carroll happy, why should we complain about how an older women comforts herself.

gilbar said...

Serious question
Have Any of you guys tried to put on women's underwear?
Underwear that was in HER size?

I SEEN women's underwear, I would be able to put it on ONE leg

Nonapod said...

Approaching it from as objective an angle as I possibly can muster, this whole affair is difficult to take at face value. Right off the bat, there are several issues that affect her credibility in my opinion.

1) She's trying to sell a book. A book that, I think it's safe to say if it weren't for this story and the media firestorm around it, wouldn't have sold very well. But with this story it may well sell tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of copies. Whether the story is true or not, she is going to be finiancially benefiting greatly from it. Assuming Trump doesn't sue her for libel and win, which given her reluctance to define the encounter as "rape" and Trump possibly not wanting to draw any more attention to this with a lawsuit seems not terribly likely at this point.

2) Her story is suspiciously similar to an old episde of Law & Order: SVU. Granted, given the timing it's entirely possible that the actual SVU episode was based on this tale rather than the other way round (You'd have to track down the writer(s) of that episode to find that out I suppose).

3) Her contemporary, corroborative sources seem likely to be very close friends. Could they be the sort of friends that might be willing to back up a made up "story", perhaps even for a share of the financial benefits or this tale? Who knows?

Birches said...

I've been saying it and I will say it again, this story is fake, but accurate. And sad as it is, I am suspicious of the friends because I can believe women will lie about when they are told incidents to get Trump. They've learned from Kavanaugh.



As to Joe Biden, I feel like the group likes pointing out the hypocrisy of the left. He's on camera getting handsy with lots of women and girls. If he was a Republican, he'd be run out of town.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

1990's rules:

Maddona - OK to be a whore.
Trump - Not.

tim maguire said...

Mike Sylwester said...I suppose I should not have spoiled the movie's climax for people who have not watched it,

No worries, the movie is 35 years old. At this point, nobody has the right to cry about spoilers.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Readering - Biden is hands-y. I don't really care. No one is accusing him of rape, just un-wanted strange touching and sniffing. SNL doens't care either. Even though Biden is a boatload of jokes waiting to come out.

JAORE said...

"I do think Trump knew her ..."

Based on?

With all due respect I hope to:
Never be accused of a crime and
See mind readers sitting in the jury pool.

Beasts of England said...

'Never have sex with someone who's crazier than you are.'

Well that ain't no fun...

readering said...

Remember the film based on great novel by gay English writer EM Forster.

Charlie Eklund said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jim said...

You guys know exactly what you elected, and plan to vote for it again.

Look at it. Please stop denying what it is.

readering said...

Like I said, interesting contrast.

Charlie Eklund said...

Regarding Biden, Bergdorff and the rest of the crazy world in which we’re living, who are you gonna believe, E. Jean Carroll or your lyin’ eyes?

Chuck said...

Welcome to my world, Althouse. You see what happens if you dare disagree with Herr Trump.

I triggered your readership for having had the nerve to have suggested that (a) I cannot say what happened between Trump
And Ms. Carroll decades ago, but (b) it is a ridiculous Trumpian lie for him to claim that he never met her. Now you seem to have done the same.

gilbar said...

Let's play the mid 1980s game!

It's 1985 or 6, and
You talk to a woman, she talks back
You ask her to go into a room, she goes
You ask her to take off her clothes, she does
You touch her, she laughs
You touch her more, she laughs more
You touch her even more, she laughs even more
You leave.
At no time did she say NO
At no time did she say STOP

Rape? In 1986?

Bay Area Guy said...

I get the impression — from her words — that she was taken aback that he used absolutely no foreplay...

Maybe this time Trump should have grabbed her by the pussy.....

jaydub said...

Suppose some bimbo surfaced to claim Meade raped her 25 years ago behind the tomato plant display in a Home Depot garden center, but whose account was full of holes with no corroborating evidence other than 25 year-old hearsay from a couple of her friends. Which one would Althouse defend?

Asking for a feminist friend.

Curious George said...

Shouldn't this post start with "Let's all pretend for a moment that this batshit crazy booze addled psycho bitch is telling the truth..."

Chuck said...

Lindsey Graham on Twitter in 2016, after the “grab ‘em by the pussy” Access Hollywood tape:

“Name one sports team, university, publicly-held company, etc. that would accept a person like this as their standard bearer?”

JAORE said...

" Once the Democrats start getting on the receiving end of these fake accusation, they'll start being more responsible. "

Nah, at least if the accusations are as full of holes as this one of the Kavenaugh accusations. The women would be exposed as liars and portrayed as whores.

It's amazing what you get if you drag a hundred votes through a DNC meeting.

Michael K said...

Blogger Chuck said...
Welcome to my world, Althouse. You see what happens if you dare disagree with Herr Trump.


Chuck and Patrick Frey inhabit a world otherwise inhabited by leftist Democrats and freaks of other varieties.

Althouse has her feminist imagination running full speed and Chuck imagines that he has a valid point of view.

wwww said...

"I get the impression — from her words — that she was taken aback that he used absolutely no foreplay"

He pushed her into the wall and she banged her head, hard. Must have been shocking. Not a usual foreplay move. Then he shoved his shoulder into her chest and pinned her up against the wall. she stomped and pushed and she pushed him hard enough to dislodge her cock from her vagina, after he pushed it in and it hurt. She ran away.

That's messed up. Really messed up. But it's possible T. did not know he was raping her. If no one has told him that behaviour is an assault, maybe he has no idea. He's wealthy, people get intimidated. Maybe nobody told him it was rape. Maybe he doesn't know it shouldn't hurt women and banging heads and holding women down while he rapes them is not ok. He felt comfortable talking about "grabbing her by the pussy." Some men might not understand their assaults are illegal.

Leland said...

Interesting to contrast comments here to those on handsy Biden.

More interesting to contrast the photographic evidence of handsy Biden to the hearsay allegations of Trump.

Note, I don't put much stock in the allegations that Biden supposedly swam naked in front of female Secret Service agents, for several reasons 1) he's free to do what he wants in his personal time and his security is imposed on him, 2) swimming is not the same as propositioning or rape, and 3) if it was routine and the female agents complained, then it is on their supervisors to reappoint them. But if there was a photo of the incident and Biden denied it was him (you know, like the Virginia Governor's yearbook photo); then I would think Biden was lying.

Michael Fitzgerald said...

Gee, the feminist who thinks "doctor" Ford was credible as she lied to destroy Brett Kav-brah now thinks that this walking-talking nervous breakdown is telling the truth about Donald Trump raping her in a dressing room of a busy upscale store.

Democrat party members are fucking dangerously deranged.

wwww said...

Maybe this time Trump should have grabbed her by the pussy.....


Yeah that's exactly what he did. He grabbed her there and stuck it in fast. she couldn't get away. It hurt. She tried to stop him. Couldn't because he outweighed her with muscle and height.

But she managed to push him outta her and run away. Good for her! She won, he lost. Rapists can rape and still loose the battle. She's a survivor.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

wwww - you forgot the part where she invited him in to the dressing room to be ravished. She so wanted to be ravished.

Instead - oh the pain!

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Perhaps Trump has a HUGE schlong?

Fen said...

He pushed her into the wall and she banged her head, hard. Must have been shocking. Not a usual foreplay move. Then he shoved his shoulder into her chest and pinned her up against the wall. she stomped and pushed and she pushed him hard enough to dislodge her cock from her vagina, after he pushed it in and it hurt. She ran away.

Please keep your sexual fantasies to yourself.

He felt comfortable talking about "grabbing her by the pussy."

Your statement only goes to show how dishonest you are. Trump was talking about a particular kind of woman - celebrity groupie gold-diggers - who "WILL LET YOU grab them by the pussy" for the chance to marry your bank account.

Having grown up wealthy, I experienced this first hand - so many North Dallas mom's wanted their little girl to marry a boy from Highland Park. "Six foot and six figures" as the female wish-casting goes.

But thank you for your contribution to the growing realization that women will lie about rape.

Ann Althouse said...

It's like scoring in football... you just need to break the plane into the end zone and it counts.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Jussie Smolette was raped, too. by Trump and those maga heat wearing goons who roam the streets of Chicago.

Fen said...

Cuck: “Name one sports team, university, publicly-held company, etc. that would accept a person like this as their standard bearer?”

We can go through the voter rolls and name 62,979,636 people who accepted Trump as their standard bearer.

Would you like me begin?

wwww said...

"I asked the women here yesterday, I'll ask again:

If I invited you on a shopping trip to model lingerie in a private room for me, would you take the invitation at face value or would you assume I was setting up a sexual encounter?"

When I was younger, I might have trusted you, if we were previous acquaintances. I was naive. Luckily, I met my husband when I was 18, so I was circumspect because I did not want a man to think I was flirting. But it's quite possible I would not have thought you were flirting, but were having a fun time. If I wasn't dating my ow husband, it would have been possible for me to have walked into the dressing room thinking it was a joke.

People who rape are good at seeming normal and they turn on a dime when they get the opportunity. They seem "safe" and once they isolate the victim they turn predatory in an instance.

She writes that she was stupid. She felt tremendously stupid and blamed herself.

There's a good book about danger, and how to keep oneself safe by that security expert. I'm blanking on it. Every person, and particular every woman should read it. Rapists and serial killers rely on trusting naivety to get into positions where they can carry out their assaults and murders.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Chuck - it mattered until it didn't.

Lindsey was trying to pull the rip cord. I wanted to, as well. Thought it would be the death of Trump. The alternative to Trump was Hillary and so - rip cord.
Turns out, after decades of lectures from the DNC press/ and hollywood about how Bill Clinton's actions are NONE of our business, and it's "Just sex"... some obscure tape of sexual bravado didn't mean much to most people.

Fen said...

Chuck: I triggered your readership -

Oh please. Don't flatter yourself. Everyone here thinks you are a joke to be mock

-for having had the nerve to have suggested (b) it is a ridiculous Trumpian lie for him to claim that he never met her.

Liar. You caught shit for pretending that a photo of her in the same room somehow proves Trump lied when he said he didn't know her. He's not even talking to her.

Big Mike said...

@Althouse, when it comes to accusations of rape, you have a blind spot the size of a galaxy-swallowing black hole. Out in the real world -- a place you only think you inhabit -- these accusations by E. Jean Carroll would be laughed at. Instead your position to this commentator reads along the lines of , she didn't like it so it was rape.

Nope. If the episode was not made up out of whole cloth -- which is still the most likely scenario from a probabilistic perspective -- then at most it was consensual sex that she didn't enjoy. The "I changed my mind" defense.

I'm starting to believe that false accusations of rape need to be a capital offense. No, actually I started to believe that years ago. Christine Blasey Ford and now E. Jean Carroll have cemented my belief into a certainty.

Fen said...

wwwww, did Trump say "they WILL LET YOU grab them by the pussy" or not?

It's on fricking audiotape. Why lie? If you let me do something, it's consensual not rape.

narayanan said...

Has been on The The View View yet?

Leland said...

Lisa Birnbach, Assassin

Read the whole thing, as it includes E. Jean Carroll, "faux" violence against "most hated enemies" including Sarah Palin, Dick Cheney, and the Pope, archery, and lots of vodka. E. Jean Carroll and Lisa Birnbach acted out their fantasy of killing their enemies with bows and arrows. Odd that Trump wasn't such an enemy at the time, although Paris Hilton was.

cacimbo said...

"But it's possible T. did not know he was raping her."

Probably like most people Trump thought that a woman who voluntarily accompanied him into a private location and kept laughing it up while he touched her - was enjoying herself. Kinda explains why she doesn't feel the word rape describes what happened.

Earnest Prole said...

A serious question: Other than his current wife, what was the age of the oldest woman Trump has ever been linked with romantically (or criminally)?

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Oh to have (craze) E. Jean and Maya on the dais tonight

a couple of snappish yoni would spice things up, no?

Beth B said...

The most revealing thing E. Carroll said in her interview with Anderson Cooper was that she thought she could "dine out" on her Trump tale as soon as she supposedly ran into him at Bergdorf's. As she said, this was at a time when Trump was King of the World, a famous New York fixture that everyone wanted to have their own story about.

She was positively giddy telling Anderson Cooper about how excited she was to meet Trump, that she wanted to see where things would go with him so she could have something to tell her friends about. This was the 90s, a time when the big city sophisticated ladies took a far more Cosmo Girl view of sexual encounters. This woman was the Carrie Bradshaw of her day. She was being fabulous! She was going to have a sexy little adventure with a powerful man. She went with him into a dressing room on the pretext of someone trying on some see-thru lingerie. So yes, there would have had to have been at least some understanding that a sexual encounter was in the offing.

Simply put, she wanted to play around with a rich guy because he was famous. And remember, women just let men do things to them when they are famous. Maybe the encounter didn't go quite as planned, but afterward it sounds like she did attempt to tell her hilarious story to her friends, in hopes they would "dine out" with her on it. It doesn't sound like she was particularly upset. She just wanted to laugh about the powerful man she'd managed a cheap dressing room fling with. But then the first two friends she told, as Ann pointed out, were wet washrags about it - one calling it rape and the 2nd telling her she could get sued. Oh, well... So much for that idea. She let it drop. For years.

But then 2016 rolled around and, against all the smart people's assurances, a certain someone got elected president, and everyone in her circle decided their former friend Trump was now Hitler, the Antichrist, and Jack the Ripper all rolled into one. How EMBARRASSING to have that fling story of hers languishing abandoned in her repertoire, where it couldn't do any good for The Resistance. Sure, time could have added a little patina to her memories, but why not add a few weaponizing embellishments to try to make herself sound more innocent and Trump more guilty?

She went willingly into a dressing room for a quickie with the famous guy? Oh, no. The Bergdorf lingerie department was just especially deserted that day, and one of the constantly locked dressing rooms just happened to be open, with none of the omnipresent sales clerks around to hamper their playfulness. The see thru-body stocking he'd asked her to try on for him? Well, she was thinking maybe she'd get HIM to try it on for laughs. It was all just a lark, you see, except, he turned out to be A Monster. But she's a fighter. She grappled with him and fought him off so efficiently that no customers or store employees or security cameras were aware of her struggle. She's really the "She-ro" of this fable, not the dumb-cluck who wanted a dalliance with a future dictator.

Don't you get it?

It's called Revisionist History. (This is assuming her whole tale isn't just an outright lie.)

Michael K said...

When I was younger, I might have trusted you, if we were previous acquaintances.

52 is "younger?" You're trying too hard.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Beth B-

Indeed.

Susan said...

Things my dear, but loopy friend told me years ago...

"I got a back stage pass to Donnie and Marie and it was so cool. Marie chipped a nail and borrowed some of my nail polish to fix it up! I told her to just keep it."

"I went on two dates with Leif Garrett when he was here for his concert. He is just as cute in real life."

The point being, neither one of these things happened or were even remotely possible at the time. But if someone ASKED me if she had told me these things I would have to say yes.

tim in vermont said...

I think we should ask all of the men running, except Booker, of course, ask him no questions and he will tell no lies, and all of the women, why not? If they ever had sex with a partner who was at least a little bit drunk. Because, you know, the rules have changed and retroactive.

Angle-Dyne, Servant of Ugliness said...

Ho hum...another week, another round of the eager credulous participants in one extraordinary mass delusion after another complaining to each other about the "cultists" who won't take the bullshit seriously.

narciso said...

who has actually admitted to dating her, I know it would be an admission against interest,

Bay Area Guy said...

Carroll is a free spirit from the 70s, slept with a lotta guys, some awkwardly, never had kids, never grew up, focused her life way too much on guys and sex. Jeez, stop talking and writing about it, and find a nice guy to actually do it.

Birnbach is an angry, woke, pseudo-journalist - she just wants to push Carroll to make the rape charge against Trump. If Trump were not President, this woulda stayed in their brains.

Fen said...

jim: You guys know exactly what you elected, and plan to vote for it again. Look at it. Please stop denying what it is.

Nope. There are FOUR lights, not five

You have the freedom to insist that women can be men, that men can have babies, and that Trump is Hitler rounding up latinos into concentration camps. Fine. Enjoy your fantasy narratives - the longer you escape into that Alternate Reality you've crafted, the more blinded you will be to what's coming in 2020. I have no interest in dispelling your illusions, as I prefer my enemies to be arrogant in their ignorance.

But you do not have the right to demand we participate in your delusions.

There. Are. Four. Lights.

Fen said...

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard: another week, another round of the eager credulous participants in one extraordinary mass delusion after another complaining to each other about the "cultists" who won't take the bullshit seriously.

The 30 words I've been trying to deliver in my 30 paragraphs.

Is it okay if I hate you for a little bit? :)

dreams said...

As far I'm concerned, she's just another liberal slut. An old liberal slut has been. Time nor tide waits for no man, or slut.

Bay Area Guy said...

I think the problem is with the word "grabbed."

"Grabbed" is not a melodious sounding word, not does it describe a particularly tender act.

Had Trump said, more accurately, "...they let you caress them by the pussy," all would be right with the world, and our friend, Chuck, would be at peace.

MayBee said...

I don't know if it's true or not, but does anyone remember the 80's and 90's? This is the kind of thing we were expected to accept that sexy people were doing. Glenn Close and Michael Douglas in Fatal Attraction. Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct. The sexiest, free-est thing you could do was meet eyes with a stranger and then go have banging sex in a semi-public place without saying a word. Even the premier episode of Six Feet Under, iirc, had Nate and Brenda lock eyes on a plane and then have sex in a broom closet.

So no, I don't think it's preposterous. I don't think it's rape. The person least believable is the friend who told her it was rape. You know your friend is either the woman that tries on lingerie for men in the Bergdorf Dressing room or she's not.

tim in vermont said...

That was a long time ago and Lindsey Graham is a new man. He saw what the Democrats were willing to do to Kavanaugh and came around to who are the real enemies, unlike Chuck.

Never is a long time.

Francisco D said...

Althouse, when it comes to accusations of rape, you have a blind spot the size of a galaxy-swallowing black hole.

There is a growing industry of emotional manipulators who prey on women who have been sexually harassed or assaulted by creepy men. For some women the memory is forever planted in their minds. Hence, they are prone to believe the most fantastic stories, such as the CBF and E. Jean Carroll farces.

I am sympathetic to Althouse in that regard, although I find her inability to be objective quite annoying.

Darrell said...

but (b) it is a ridiculous Trumpian lie for him to claim that he never met her

Chuck--

You are nuttier than a syphilitic badger with a No.4 phillips screwdriver jammed between its ears.

Angle-Dyne, Servant of Ugliness said...

I strongly recommend listening to the entire podcast.

No thanks. I might be interested in a podcast from some psychologically astute individual with thoughts on why ostensibly mature, sophisticated people continue to be so willing to be played by hustling nutcases and their hustling enablers, but the hustling nutcases and hustling enablers themselves aren't that interesting. Jeez, couldn't they at least come up with a fresh con?

tim in vermont said...

My ex-wife just told me that she would “actually vote for Trump” over these nutcases running on the Democrat side. Ha ha ha! That is something! She voted for Hillary knowing she was a scumbag.

tim in vermont said...

These people telling her that it’s rape remind me of when those same people were telling sobbing victims of Bill Clinton to take one for the team and say it wasn’t rape. Situational ethics all the way down.

chuck said...

> "But it's possible T. did not know he was raping her."

Given that it probably never happened, I think that is a safe bet.

tim in vermont said...

People who rape are good at seeming normal and they turn on a dime when they get the opportunity. They seem "safe" and once they isolate the victim they turn predatory in an instance.

So how did you feel about Juanita Broaddrick wanting to talk to Gov Clinton about health care policy and being invited to take the conversation private back to her hotel room. That was all on the up and up, right?

At least with Trump, the premise was sexual on both sides.

In the old days, sodomy was illegal, now it’s rape fantasies. I hear Bernie Sanders is an expert on those, somebody should ask him tonight!

Michael K said...

This is the kind of thing we were expected to accept that sexy people were doing. Glenn Close and Michael Douglas in Fatal Attraction. Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct. The sexiest, free-est thing you could do was meet eyes with a stranger and then go have banging sex in a semi-public place without saying a word.

Then, like the black widow, she killed the male. Every feminist's fantasy.

tim in vermont said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
jim said...

Fen: I guess I forgot that the pussy tape was just my delusion. Just another part of my alternate reality. Oops.

Mike Sylwester said...

Beth B at 19:43 AM
The most revealing thing E. Carroll said in her interview with Anderson Cooper was that she thought she could "dine out" on her Trump tale ...

Superb comment!

William said...

Smollett doesn't get a lot of love here, but it must be said that he put a lot of effort and thought into his production. The underlying story was kind of loopy, but there were production values, supporting players, credible acting. Her story is even loopier, and she didn't even make the effort to sound traumatized.....Honest question: Can women try on lingerie? That's an intimate garment. I'd be kind of grossed out wearing someone else's underwear, and I'm far less finicky than the average advice columnist.....I can readily imagine Trump making a crude pass at a woman that while it falls short of rape is something less than a seduction. I can also imagine JFK, Bill Clinton, LBJ, MLK, and any number of Dem politicians making crude moves to close the deal, but I can't imagine any woman who came forward with such a story getting such publicity and sympathy.\

tim in vermont said...

I guess I forgot that the pussy tape was just my delusion.

The pussy tape was “when you are a star, they LET you.” So if you think it was about assault, then yeah, you are delusional.

“she thought she could "dine out" on her Trump tale ...”

Which is how it got into a TV script.

wwww said...

He was a bad boyfriend

He wasn't a boyfriend. Trump did not see himself as her "boyfriend." Carroll did not see herself as his "girlfriend." Nope.

Certainly he felt he could take what he wanted, when he wanted, against her will nor not. Her will is insignificant. That's the POV of this type of person, often a man. The great majority of men are not like this, but a minority of predators exists and they leave behind many victims. That's how the great majority of men never assault women but a small minority carry out the majority of assaults.

& yes, it does seem that some minority of men admire this sort of person, and even admire him, for his ability to attack, and beat up women, and rape with impunity. Most men hold this type in great contempt.

I cannot now find that excellent book about safety. Every person, but in particular every woman should read it.

tim in vermont said...

but I can't imagine any woman who came forward with such a story[about a Democrat] getting such publicity and sympathy.\

That’s different because reasons. Maybe jim can explain it!

robother said...

In space, er, Bergdorf's, no one can hear you scream!

tim in vermont said...

against her will nor not. Her will is insignificant.

What’s your source for this little bit of editorializing? Carroll is an interesting person, but I don’t think she was naive and she never claimed it. You can’t compare her to an 18 year old virgin who knew next to nothing about “boys."

Jeff Brokaw said...

How many more of these obvious lies does it take before people start demanding a change in the laws, to automatically turn false rape charges into defamation charges against the accuser?

I sense that his is getting out of control. Especially with the amplification of the media and social media to turn shaky bullshit into mob action by people too partisan or too stupid to realize that accusations — without substantial evidence and an investigation of some kind — are nothing but talk.

chuck said...

The old Maidenform bra ads have this story uncovered.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

www wrote:

" But it's quite possible I would not have thought you were flirting, but were having a fun time. If I wasn't dating my ow husband, it would have been possible for me to have walked into the dressing room thinking it was a joke."

Jesus, you're a fucking idiot.

tim in vermont said...

no one can hear you scream!

She didn’t scream anymore than the lady on the airplane who claimed Trump assaulted her screamed. She could have had him arrested sooner than quicker with just a word. Try to find somebody who remembers her in any kind of spat with the famous real estate magnate and all around celebrity. I once sat across from John Updike on a flight into Philadelphia and I still remember it, and all he did was read.

tim in vermont said...

She never said she screamed anyway, or even said “no” or “stop.” It was a game and maybe she underestimated her opponent, a 6-2 male, but she tells the story like it’s a game, and wasn’t upset by it, apparently.

It’s not like Broaddrick, who was discovered by a friend sobbing and bleeding. She was laughing when she told her friends.

narciso said...

did they establish a date, were there contemporaneous notes, rhetorical?

Michael K said...

it does seem that some minority of men admire this sort of person, and even admire him, for his ability to attack, and beat up women, and rape with impunity. Most men hold this type in great contempt.

You are really nuts. You should think about therapy. These fantasies are not good for you.

How many times have you read "50 shades of Gray?"

Jeff Brokaw said...

Most of you probably are not familiar with this case, but in 2014 Patrick Kane of the Chicago Blackhawks was accused of rape. The charges sounded believable at first, but then all kinds of craziness happened including an attempt to sabotage the rape kit — by the *accuser* and her mother. Then her attorney quit because she and her mother lied to him too much. There was more but this is what I can remember off the top of my head.

It quickly became obvious to all but the True Believers that the charges were bullshit. Or, at least, not provable.

The D.A. (Buffalo NY) dropped the charges, in a matter of about 3 weeks IIRC.

But sports journalists kept insisting that “toxic masculinity” is a thing, and “even though this case might not be true, we need to believe the women because yada yada yada”.

Bullshit.

False charges are false charges. Today, people get tried in the court of public opinion SO quickly — and how exactly do you unwind all that bad PR based on lies?

Newsflash: we cannot “undo” the bad things that happen to some women by falsely accusing and destroying men who did nothing wrong.

True fact.

Kevin said...

Shorter Althouse: Sometimes when you have sex, you really are being raped, and sometimes when you are raped, you really are just having sex, and sometimes when you are have sex or are raped, you actually are just disappointed, and sometimes when you are disappointed, it’s because you actually are having sex and not bring raped. Sex and disappointment is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs.

And sometimes what other people need is for you to level a credible race charge.

Bay Area Guy said...

I know this may shock and surprise and lot of these ditzy, woke females (and perhaps some beta males too), but:

1. If you're nice and friendly and inviting and warm, you can meet people, make friends, go on dates, and eventually get a boyfriend.

2. Once you have a boyfriend, you can have a lotta sex with foreplay! And, if it's enjoyable, hey, you can keep doing it!

These chicks have to stop reading 50 Shades of Grey and Elle and all this nonsense.

johns said...

Beth B, I agree with your telling. Also, if Donald Trump was walking around Berdorf's, he would have attracted a crowd. Or at least, the sales clerks would be gossiping about his being there, and would have known exactly where he was.

vanderleun said...

Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the Althouse she rolls out her "I see Nig pajamas" brain once again.

Yancey Ward said...

What reason has she given anyone that her story should be believed? Her story sounds just as believable as Julie Swetnik's story, or Blasey-Ford's. Other than that one photo, I see no reason to disbelieve Trump's claim that he didn't know who she was when the story appeared last week, and in that photo, it doesn't look like they are even interacting with one another.

Althouse shows an odd willingness to believe anything a woman claims about a man that is derogatory. Sure, Trump's admitted past makes such claims a little more credible when made, but the reality is that his past and his present position also makes it far more likely such stories will be made up out of whole cloth. From a purely logical point of view, the two issues sort of wash each other out. I probably wouldn't pick on Althouse for this, but she also believed Blasey-Ford's wasn't lying about Kavanaugh, and there the man's entire known history suggested he wasn't that kind of man- of course, she also thought Blasey-Ford might be misremembering the who.

Of course, when you add in the not small detail about the Law and Order SVU episode, her credibility diminishes greatly. Are we to believe that she just coincidentally was "raped" in the same way as described in a television show 7 years ago, or are we to believe she embellished a real story of "rape" by Donald Trump with details from the show, or do we believe that she was lying full out? In totality, I have to go with the third one absent any real evidence that I can confirm.

There are good liars and bad liars, and this woman appears to be a particularly bad one, like Blasey-Ford.

Fen said...

Jim: Fen: I guess I forgot that the pussy tape was just my delusion. Just another part of my alternate reality. Oops.

Yes it is. And it's hysterical how people like you can take physical evidence like an audiotape of someone *saying* certain women "WILL LET YOU grab them by the pussy" and turn that into a confession of non-consensual sex and rape.

You're delusional. Even conversing with you is risky, as your reading comprehension is so poor you will likely misinterpret my remarks as a desire to send you to a concentration camp.

Have you considered seeing a shrink?

Rosalyn C. said...

What shocks me is the amount and depth of lies and schemes some people are capable of concocting. I never understood how anyone like that lives with themselves without developing an intense sense of self loathing; except that now I understand the defense mechanism is that they project that loathing onto others. The rationalization I heard over and over in E's interviews was that she was acting in response to the abuse "women" in general suffer at the hands of men, so anything evil she does pales in comparison, and the veracity of her story is insignificant.

Honestly I don't know if her claim has any merit at all and I don't care because it was not and is not a serious situation. She was playing a game and it didn't end well or she made it up -- distinction without a difference imo. Rape is a horrible trauma and a really destructive violent act when it happens to real people, regardless if a woman or man, adult or child. I get a little angry at the trivialization of rape by a publicity hound. At least she was honest enough to admit there was no "rape" involved regardless of our current definitions. She was/is a sexual adventurer. The adventure of shopping for lingerie with a famous stranger in this tale was the foreplay but apparently she wasn't sufficiently stimulated. Too bad. She is giving all genuine women a bad rep. She is the talented drama queen who has made a career out of fakery.

tim in vermont said...

I don’t get the hating on Althouse here. Maybe if you guys could provide the snippet that triggered you.

Chuck said...

Patrick Kane, and the Duke Lacrosse players, and Justice Kavanaugh never lied. It is easy to defend them.

chuck said...

My impression of Trump is that he has walked a fine line on the boundaries of the wild side, both personally and in business, but is well aware of the line and has been very careful not to step over it.

Vet66 said...

Timing is everything and her's is self-serving and akin to the recent attacks on Judge Kavanaugh. Liberals are without shame and will not be deterred from breaking laws, lying, and general mayhem for their narrative. Her statement that rape us "sexy" and an insult to those who have been raped, Her story is little more than a bodice ripping cheap novel. Predictable, boring, and a planned character assassination.

tim in vermont said...

I am not at all convinced she’s lying. I take her word for it that she wasn’t raped. The SVU thing doesn’t really mean anything, they could have gotten it from her story. Manhattan isn’t that big of a place if you are in a certain crowd, which she was.

narciso said...

well the Duke Lacrosse players did hire a hooker, is there any accusation too inflammatory for the Times not to air, the edited transcripts and other accounts in Sanford, poisoned the well, the same with the huntress's public presence, her family was assaulted on at least one occasion after Tucson, the handling of events in ferguson,

Ken B said...

N.n.
Wrong logic. They are indeed (putatively) witnesses. If what they say is true then the SVU thing is refuted, right? Sois any theory that E Jean made this up for political reasons. Trumpeas not a politician then. Their testimony wouldn’t prove rape but it would refute a lot of alternatives about the long delay. It would undercut his claim he never met her. That matters.

Ken B said...

Nobody
I think the hating on Althouse comes from her trying to have it both ways. She wants to believe E Jean just enough that the mud sticks to Trump and not enough to demand it be seriously investigated, the way the house counsel investigated Blasey Ford, or the other women who were referred for perjury. An overly convenient approach to evidence.

narciso said...

and the proof would be a date, contemporaneous records, and other evidence, a podcast means next to nothing, and confirmation by such a dubious source like Birnbach is even more so

Francisco D said...

Patrick Kane, and the Duke Lacrosse players, and Justice Kavanaugh never lied. It is easy to defend them.

The statement is ridiculous, but obviously no one is defending you, Chuckles.

You are an obsessive. liar.

narayanan said...

and then there is this

https://jezebel.com/a-welcomed-rape-sex-and-ayn-rand-5490207

discuss, analyse, diagram - sketch out the scene, etc.

Yancey Ward said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
narayanan said...

in an interview with Trump for USA Today, columnist Kirsten Powers wrote:

Trump described himself as an Ayn Rand fan. He said of her novel The Fountainhead, “It relates to business [and] beauty [and] life and inner emotions. That book relates to…everything.” He identified with Howard Roark, the novel’s idealistic protagonist who designs skyscrapers and rages against the establishment.

When I pointed out that The Fountainhead is in a way about the tyranny of groupthink, Trump sat up and said. “That’s what is happening here.”

Yancey Ward said...

Nobody,

It seems to be Althouse's default position to believe the woman's story, no matter what the story is, and no matter who the accused is. I find this tic puzzling. It seems to comes from the basic untruth that women don't lie about such things, but it takes someone incredibly naive to believe that. My default position it believe nothing without evidence that can be confirmed. In this particular case, the evidence weighs against her-

(1) How did this story not come up before this week? Given the animus against Trump, it sort of beggars belief that this story wasn't publicized by one of the three women long before now. Carroll, of course, offers that she didn't do this prior because she thought it would help Trump politically, but then you have to ask, what has changed now? I think the more logical explanation for it being now is that a decision was made to lie now.

(2) I keep coming back to the Law and Order SVU episode- that dialogue from 2012 is pretty much a full description of her story from last week. That is one big fucking coincidence that has only two explanations that credit her truthfulness- either it really is a coincidence, or the person who wrote that part of the episode knew of Carroll's "rape" by Trump and used it as material. Of course, the more likely truth is that Carroll was aware of the episode and used it either consciously or unconsciously as embellishment of some real event or the lie. You know where I stand on this.

Were this an isolated thing, I wouldn't pick on Althouse here, but she did the same thing in the Kavanaugh/Blasey-Ford dust-up. There the stories kept getting more and more unbelievable, but I never saw a retraction issued, so I assume she still believes Blasey-Ford's story and thought her claims were credible. This does seem like a blind spot to me. If Carroll claimed that she saw Donald Trump shoot a man, would she automatically think that credible, too?

Fen said...

Newsflash: we cannot “undo” the bad things that happen to some women by falsely accusing and destroying men who did nothing wrong.

I think there needs to be a rule: if you don't come out within 1 year of the alleged rape, then it never happened. Put up or shut up.

And I'm not unsympathetic to the victims. I stood up for 5 women who were molested by a Knight named Sir Richard de Montbrai of Atlantia (aka Richard Mowbry) in the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA). He had been using the Order of Chivalry to gain the trust of pre-teen girls, the first victim dating back to 1999, the last (known) victim in 2010. And there was paper trail of formal complaints by their mother's, police and detective reports, eye witness accounts, correspondence establishing the credibility of the accusers, etc.

For my efforts to stop Richard Mowbry's sexual predation of children I was shunned by leaders and kindgom officers in Atlantia, I was threatened with violence, my marriage was attacked, a kindgom officer (Chatelaine) named Kalisa Aleksandrovna (aka Jennifer Krochmal) who works as a Public Defender in DC threatened me with lawfare 17 separate times along the lines of "even if you have not committed slander, it will take 3 years and $30k to prove your innocence, do you have 3 years and $30k?". Richard's immediate supervisor, Baron William the Younger of Storvik warned me "if you continue to pursue this, people you care about will get hurt".

Did I fold? No, I created a paperwork trail that persists even to this day, I caught both
Kalisa's and William's threats on tape. And handed all my evidence and research over to the FBI.

As for the child pedophile Richard, I could not get him removed from the SCA (the people were very much like the boosters at the Penn State - decent folk who became scoundrels once their institution was threatened by scandal, circled the wagons and stonewalled)... I could not get him banned from the SCA, so I kept the spotlight on him so he would not be able to molest any more young girls. I am told I drove him to an early death, I am proud of that.

What I did NOT do was keep quiet for 20 years until it would help sell my book.

tim in vermont said...

She wants to believe E Jean just enough that the mud sticks to Trump and not enough to demand it be seriously investigated

So? I am not sure there is even any “mud” sticking to Trump in Althouse’s opinion. You seem to want to decide the facts of the case based on the political impact.

This is one more fart in the windstorm of TDS, who cares?

tim in vermont said...

The New York Times has a tell when they are misrepresenting something. They don’t provide actual text from a source document for example, or a quote from a person, they just characterize them in their own words. I am interested in the exact quote that has everybody’s panties in a knot.

Birches said...

Hmm. Fen isn't a guy who admires rapists. Back to the pop psychology drawing board for some of you...

Yancey Ward said...

Chuck,

If lies can be told about those people, the lacrosse players and Kavanaugh, do you think more or less likely such lies could be told about Trump?

Sure, Trump has less credibility, but he also a much bigger target for lying smears. I think the latter is probably a much bigger factor than the former.

tim in vermont said...

Of course, the more likely truth is that Carroll was aware of the episode and used it either consciously or unconsciously

Or she “dined out on the story."

Big Mike said...

I don’t get the hating on Althouse here. Maybe if you guys could provide the snippet that triggered you.

@Nobody, it wasn’t just a snippet and it isn’t just about E. Jean Carroll’s fantastical claim. Nor is it hatred. Go back and read my comment at 10:35. I am exasperated. There is no question that Althouse is bright. She graduated first in her class in a prestigious law school and she Held an endowed chair — universities, as a rule, do not give endowed chairs to dim lightbulbs. But when it comes to false accusations of rape Althouse uses her mental acuity to find some way in which the palpably false accusation could, conceivably, be true.

It’s frustrating. Very frustrating.

Yancey Ward said...

"Now, I've watched the entire opening statement by Dr. Ford. She seemed very credible to me. Though she was reading, she seemed to be reliving a real, traumatic experience. It's hard to imagine that she could be infusing her speech with that kind of emotion phonily. Even an excellent actress would have difficulty affecting that kind of emotion."

Will this suffice, Nobody? This is Althouse basically saying, "I can't believe there are such things as good liars, so I choose to believe her story." This is deeply uncritical thinking, something of which Ms. Althouse is generally not guilty. Her reaction to Carroll's story seems quite similar to me, even though the incident isn't displayed as traumatic by Ms. Carroll. I just think it is a blind spot with regards to sexual assault stories.

Yancey Ward said...

If you believe that liars can't be that good, then you are surely being extremely gullible on a range of issues.

daskol said...

If you're attuned to the way stories like this are used for political purposes, then Althouse's approach can be exasperating. There's no acknowledgment of the systematic use of these accusations, each flimsy enough on its own to be dismissed, but in toto creating a narrative that makes Trump toxic to many women (and some men). The meta narrative, the cynical way in which a narrative or the truth is constructed on tissues of lies, is enough to get some people worked up.

However, if you're not worked up about that, incidents like this are interesting for what they show about memory and consciousness. You can try to find a person's truth even as she is not in full possession of it, misleading us or being misled by her own memories, which have changed over time. Using a rule of thumb such as Blasey's apparently genuine emotions on display during her testimony, or feeling out what rings true in EJC's various characterizations of the event, is a kind of vision it can be fun to practice. Like squinting with your mind.

BleachBit-and-Hammers said...

Is there any doubt that Trump and Kavanaugh stalked the women's lingerie dressing rooms at Bergdroff Goodman back in the 1990's. Come on - so real.

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