Says E. Jean Carroll, speaking on the NYT "Daily" podcast, answering the question why she did not tell her story before the 2016 election.
I strongly recommend listening to the entire podcast. We hear Carroll tell her version of the story, and we hear the 2 women who received phone calls from Carroll shortly after the alleged incident. One, Lisa Birnbach (the author of "The Official Preppy Handbook"), says that Carroll laughed as she recounted her story and that Birnbach had to tell her that it was rape and wanted to take her to the police right away. The other woman, Carol Martin, says she told Carroll that Trump had a lot of lawyers, that there would be no end of trouble if she were to make an accusation of rape, that she should tell no one, and that she'd be better off getting on with her life. If the incident and the 2 conversations took place as the 3 women describe, then it's clear that Carroll — who is herself a big advice columnist — took the second woman's advice.
E. Jean Carroll continues to say that she does not regard what happened as rape. She tells a story in which she was having a fun time interacting with Trump and she willingly and laughingly rode up the elevator with him at Bergdorf's on his idea that she help him shop for lingerie. She had her ideas of how the scene would play out and, as she tells it, imagined getting him to put on the lingerie. In her telling of the story, she was surprised that he got very sexually aggressive as soon as the door to the dressing room closed, but she's clear that she never said anything. Not only didn't she scream for help, in her version of the story, she doesn't say "No," or "Stop," or "Don't." I get the impression — from her words — that she was taken aback that he used absolutely no foreplay and that she thought she had a fantastic story to tell. But the first person she told the story to, Lisa Birnbach, threw cold water on it.
In the podcast, Carroll says this about her refusal to call it rape: "Every woman gets to choose her word. Every woman gets to choose how she describes it. This is my way of saying it. This is my word. My word is fight. My word is not the victim word. I have not been raped. Something has not been done to me. I fought." That made me think of gender diversity and the idea that we humans don't have to accept the conventional categories "male" and "female." There's much more to sex than what the legal system defines and labels "rape." You can tell your own version of the facts (and you can embellish and exaggerate and you can slant and you can lie). If you don't invoke the criminal justice system, you can use the words you want to express yourself. Carroll is notably choosing not to use the word "rape" while describing actions that, legally, are rape. She has her reasons. She's a writer who has written a book that's about a lifetime of sexual encounters, many of which were bad.
Carroll is open to the accusation that she is lying (or crazy), and that's part of speaking publicly. She's also open to a defamation lawsuit. There is criminal law (which she's eschewed) and there is civil law (which she can't opt out of). Will Trump sue her for libel? Or will he just stick to his story that he never knew her and that she's not "his type"? Carroll and Trump are — I think it's fair to say — longtime participants in a NYC scene in which people had a lot of high-spirited sex which they may have enjoyed or suffered from at the time and which they look back on with whatever interpretations they may find. They can talk about it now — including lying about it now — as much as they want.
But what are we supposed to do about it? I do think Trump knew her and is lying to say that he didn't. I suspect that some incident did take place, but Carroll can only tell it through the interpretations that have formed and reformed in her mind over the years. She's writing in what I think is a memoir style, where her own story predominates, and I don't think there's an effort to portray the story as he may have experienced it subjectively. At the time, there was the idea that "no means no" and a decent man had to stop at "no." But the idea of a requirement of "affirmative consent" was just emerging, and even on Carroll's telling of the story, I can see how a man of that time may have felt he had an opportunity and he could take it, indeed, that the masculine, powerful, leader-like thing to do is to take what you want, to have as many women for your own pleasure as you can take.
Birnbach visited some consciousness-raising on Carroll, but Carroll wasn't ready to go there back then. Time has passed, and #MeToo happened, and Carroll did some soul-searching and book-writing. I think that's valuable, but also that it's too late to do anything to Trump about it. He was a bad boyfriend. That's for sure, and that's something we've known about him all along. He didn't claim to be a good boyfriend. He's been open about that, even if he's lying about Carroll now.
June 27, 2019
"Shocking as it sounds, I thought it would help him. And shocking as it sounds, I was correct... because it is a masculine, powerful, leader-like thing to do to take what you want, to have as many women for your own pleasure as you can take."
Tags:
crime,
defamation,
E. Jean Carroll,
law,
Lisa Birnbach,
lying,
rape,
relationships,
Trump troubles
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
244 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 244 of 244"Hunter S. Thompson … now, there’s a good candidate. I know. I wrote his biography. Does Hunter, the greatest degenerate of his generation, who kept yelling, “Off with your pants!” as he sliced the leggings from my body with a long knife in his hot tub, make the list? Naw.
And if having my pants hacked off by a man lit to the eyebrows with acid, Chivas Regal, Champagne, grass, Chartreuse, Dunhills, cocaine, and Dove Bars does not make the list — because to me there is a big difference between an “adventure” and an “attack” — who, in God’s name, does make my Hideous List?
After almost two years of drawing and redrawing my list, I’ve come to realize that, though my hideosity bar is high, my criteria are a little cockeyed. It is a gut call. I am like Justice Potter Stewart. I just know a hideous man when I see one. And I have seen plenty. For 26 years, I have been writing the “Ask E. Jean” column in Elle, and for 26 years, no matter what problems are driving women crazy — their careers, wardrobes, love affairs, children, orgasms, finances — there comes a line in almost every letter when the cause of the correspondent’s quagmire is revealed. And that cause is men."
https://www.thecut.com/2019/06/donald-trump-assault-e-jean-carroll-other-hideous-men.html
Nice photograph there..very judicial.
f you're attuned to the way stories like this are used for political purposes, then Althouse's approach can be exasperating.
She’s with you or against you, I get it. I think that Carroll is an interesting person, I don’t think that this blog is a partisan undertaking.
You can try to find a person's truth even as she is not in full possession of it, misleading us or being misled by her own memories
I go with Dali on CBF:
"The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.” - Salvador Dali
I don’t want to live in a world where we can’t speak the truth as we see it for political reasons. I guess if Congress declared war, I would keep my own counsel on certain subjects, as a loyal citizen of the republic, but this is just politics and this stuff is interesting in an of itself outside of politics.
there comes a line in almost every letter when the cause of the correspondent’s quagmire is revealed. And that cause is men."
What bullshit unless you map backstabbing women back to the men they are backstabbing over. My life would certainly be easier if I didn’t have a biologically programmed need for women. I don’t blame them for being that which I desire the most.
Ann,
I've been a fan and supporter of yours for 12-14 years, since you first started blogging. I would not come here every day if I did not think you were generally pretty smart and level headed, even if I disagree with your politics sometimes.
But then every once in a while you go harpic, run off the rails, fall over the cliff, into a hole and wind up in a galaxy a million light years from reality. This is one of those times.
First you tell us that
"E. Jean Carroll continues to say that she does not regard what happened as rape"
Then you say:
she was surprised that he got very sexually aggressive as soon as the door to the dressing room closed, but she's clear that she never said anything. Not only didn't she scream for help, in her version of the story, she doesn't say "No," or "Stop," or Don't.
Then
In the podcast, Carroll says this about her refusal to call it rape: "Every woman gets to choose her word. Every woman gets to choose how she describes it. This is my way of saying it. This is my word. My word is fight. My word is not the victim word. I have not been raped. Something has not been done to me. I fought." [emph added]
Then, after all that, you say
"Carroll is notably choosing not to use the word "rape" while describing actions that, legally, are rape."
Later,
At the time, there was the idea that "no means no" and a decent man had to stop at "no."
If this happened like she claims, which I still find impossible to believe, I do not see how it could be considered as "rape" in a legal sense or even in any kind of moral sense.
She didn't resist, even to the extent of saying "Stop that, you naughty boy". That makes it consensual.
Could you please explain how it was rape if she did not say no, did not resist in any way? Even, arguably, led him on by going into a dressing room to try on sexy lingerie.
You are a law professor and lawyer, can you please explain the law here? Can you please explain how it is "rape" under NY Law?
John Henry
I say we ask rape fantasy expert Bernie Sanders to pulleeze sort this out for us!
Sigh....
Remember people, teach your sons that "Hahahaha" means "NO!!!!!!"
I think Bernie and E Jean should go out on a date.
that's hot.
And just in case anyone is curious, NY State has 3 degrees of rape and these are the definitions:
New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 130.25 Rape in the third degreeA person is guilty of rape in the third degree when:
1. He or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person who is incapable of consent by reason of some factor other than being less than seventeen years old;
2. Being twenty-one years old or more, he or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person less than seventeen years old; or
3. He or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person without such person's consent where such lack of consent is by reason of some factor other than incapacity to consent.
Rape in the third degree is a class E felony.
New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 130.30 Rape in the second degree
A person is guilty of rape in the second degree when:
1. being eighteen years old or more, he or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person less than fifteen years old; or
2. he or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person who is incapable of consent by reason of being mentally disabled or mentally incapacitated.
It shall be an affirmative defense to the crime of rape in the second degree as defined in subdivision one of this section that the defendant was less than four years older than the victim at the time of the act.
Rape in the second degree is a class D felony.
New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 130.35 Rape in the first degree
A person is guilty of rape in the first degree when he or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person:
1. By forcible compulsion; or
2. Who is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless; or
3. Who is less than eleven years old; or
4. Who is less than thirteen years old and the actor is eighteen years old or more.
Rape in the first degree is a class B felony.
https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-130-25.html
John Henry
@Chuck “Patrick Kane, and the Duke Lacrosse players, and Justice Kavanaugh never lied. It is easy to defend them.”
What the hell does that have to do with false accusations based on criminal lies that damage or destroy innocent men in the court of public opinion, and potentially, in a court of law too?
Don’t be daft. Engage critical thinking apparatus. My point was clearly made about false accusations and the problems they cause. You can agree with it or don’t, but that bullshit answer is not helpful.
Whats clear is that the Collusion Hoax collapse (on top of the hundreds of other dem/left/LLR hoax collapses) has left an astonishing void into which the far left commenters like LLR Chuck, readering, wwww et al must pour ever more new hoaxes to satisfy their personal illness.
No republican or conservative is safe from these accusations LLR Chuck and his dem pals will continue to conjure up.
Jeff Brokaw: "You can agree with it or don’t, but that bullshit answer is not helpful."
Incorrect Jeff.
Chucks comments are always very helpful to the far left dems seeking to transform the country into a lefty paradise.
No smear against republicans/conservatives is a bridge too far for Chuck.
He has proudly admitted that.
Can you please explain how it is "rape" under NY Law?
I think an argument could be made here:
2. he or she engages in sexual intercourse with another person who is incapable of consent by reason of being mentally disabled or mentally incapacitated.
“They laughed at me when I wrote that story! Laughed! But whose laughing now? Hmmm?” - Bernie Sanders
I do think Trump knew her and is lying to say that he didn't. I suspect that some incident did take place
In other words, you didn't learn a single thing from the Kavanaugh hearings.
Blogger Earnest Prole said...
A serious question: Other than his current wife, what was the age of the oldest woman Trump has ever been linked with romantically (or criminally)?
Before he became her landlord in the Empire State building and got into a pissing contest over the lease Trump used to frequently escort Leona Helmsly.
I never thought it was romantic but who knows? Anyway, in 1990 Leona would have been 70. Trump 43 or so.
John Henry
Coming soon from Harlequin Press: "Sweet Savage Statist Love," by Inga Handmaiden.
In other words, you didn't learn a single thing from the Kavanaugh hearings.
Nor will she, now or ever.
To prevent any untoward behavior, I just tossed the Dove bar in the freezer.
Schrödinger's pussy was simultaneously raped and not raped in the change room.
A bit off topic but this got me to wondering:
Did Donald Trump ever have sex with Stormy Daniels?
I did a quick Bing search, 3-4 minutes is all I am willing to waste and all I could find was stories in which Daniels claims to have had sex with him. And an equal number of stories where she claims not to.
I found Trump's lawyer, Cohen, denying that he had had sex with her. For whatever that is worth.
Has Trump ever admitted to it? I could not find anything on my quick search.
Yes, he did pay her to stay quiet, but that is neither here nor there. $130m is sofa change to someone like him and to keep someone from telling an embarassing, even if false, story might be worth it. It does tend to make me think he might have had sex but certainly does not convince me.
John Henry
“That made me think of gender diversity and the idea that we humans don't have to accept the conventional categories "male" and "female."
Right. And you dont have to believe the world is round if you are cray crayh
Story must be true: she couldn't tell if it was in all the way or not.
Three women knew that Donald Trump raped somedoby, but never told anybody for more than 20 years.
Bullshit.
I can totally imagine Donny and Brett, slinking around the Bergdorff Lingerie department, with their six-packs of Bud Light, laughing it up, cat-calling the ladies as they come and go out the dressing room.
Come on honey, *hiccup* show us what ya got. You need some big daddy? We got what you need right here. *hiccup*
Let's look at the predicate.
What the point of wearing sexy lingerie?
Its just sex
When did it become Rape?
Decriminalize rape, at the same time we decriminalize immigration
is there anything uglier than an OLD woman?
She looks like a corpse
the "Danielle Steele" dossier
w/ Senor Trump** as Jack 'The Bodice' Ripper
"Bodice Rippers are strictly formulaic and the plot usually involves a vulnerable heroine faced with a richer and more powerful male character"
--do you want him to enter in legally, or without your consent?
Also, if Donald Trump was walking around Berdorf's, he would have attracted a crowd. Or at least, the sales clerks would be gossiping about his being there, and would have known exactly where he was.
This cannot be repeated enough.
Too many people are forgetting Trump wasn't some anonymous schmoe who could slip out for a gallon of milk anytime he wanted. He was on Letterman many times. Cameos on TV shows. Covers of magazines. Casinos with his name emblazoned across the top. Everywhere he went, he'd have an entourage and it would be an event if he even set foot inside the store.
And I'm supposed to believe he was able to sneak into a changing room, 'rape' someone and nobody knew what was going on?
Nope.
Howard said...Story must be true: she couldn't tell if it was in all the way or not.
Trump "knobbed" her knowingly
Trump wasn't some anonymous schmoe who could slip out for a gallon of milk anytime he wanted.
Imagine the cognitive dissonance one must have to insist that Trump must have known E. Jean Carroll because both were members of the NYC social networks but that both could enter Berdorf's department store unrecognized and ignored by sales representatives, particularly around the dressing room's for women's lingerie.
And let's add to this; the easiest product to hide in shoplifting is underwear. And ladies lingerie isn't cheap. So any department store has a security incentive to carefully monitor who goes in and out of dressing rooms, particularly near the lingerie area. Further, if a rape event did occur in their dressing rooms, and nobody from the department store was aware; how much liability might they have for not providing some security around the lingerie dressing rooms. So despite these incentives and the popularity of these well known members of the community; nobody witnessed this event?
An individual employee might get fired for selling such a salacious story to the press, but Berdorf would have a great deal of incentive to embarrass and dissuade others from seeing their dressing rooms as a place for public sex. I see no reason the department store would have hid this information.
Did Donald Trump ever have sex with Stormy Daniels?
I used to think he did, simply for sake of avoiding the argument. By all accounts, if it happened, it was consensual at the time. It is only embarrassing to his spouse and to people with various degrees of prudish notions. Other celebrities have bragged about sexual parties whether at the Playboy mansions or other venues. Trump was just another celebrity at the time. Heck, Hillary used to brag about dining out with Harvey Weinstein, and Weinstein was Hollywood's open secret.
However, the more Stormy Daniels booked venues based on the fame she garnered from the accusation, and the more desperate she became to retain that fame; I started to think it never happened. Add in the number of woman that have now confessed to lying about sex or sexual assault under the guidance of Avenatti; and I think it just a little bit more than reasonable doubt that nothing ever happened.
Interesting I tried to link the Birnbach piece, just now, and I got a 404, in light of what twitter has deigned as policy, it's interesting no:
https://twitter.com/toddstarnes/status/1144336751596658688
Big Mike said...
I don’t get the hating on Althouse here. Maybe if you guys could provide the snippet that triggered you.
@Nobody, it wasn’t just a snippet and it isn’t just about E. Jean Carroll’s fantastical claim. Nor is it hatred. Go back and read my comment at 10:35. I am exasperated. There is no question that Althouse is bright. She graduated first in her class in a prestigious law school and she Held an endowed chair — universities, as a rule, do not give endowed chairs to dim lightbulbs. But when it comes to false accusations of rape Althouse uses her mental acuity to find some way in which the palpably false accusation could, conceivably, be true.
It’s frustrating. Very frustrating.
__________________________
But when teacher is chumming the waters - students like sharks enjoy ripping her arguments apart - could be teaching technique?!
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tim-graham/2019/06/27/washpost-demands-outrage-e-jean
@narayanan, could be. But probably not.
Oh, she also says Hunter S. Thompson sliced the leggings off her body with a long knife in a hot tub — but that doesn't even make her list of 21 Hideous Men™, the trademark phrase she is pushing to try to sell her book. She says Les Moonves at CBS tried to assault her in an elevator, that her camp counselor assaulted her, that practically everyone she knows tried to assault her. In her declining years, she is clinging to a self-identity as a desirable woman and living within her own proclaimed "rape fantasies" that she revealed to Anderson Cooper. She is a sad woman, but dangerous to be on the loose. She needs to be treated and medicated for the sake of democracy. Hoaxing the gullible and enabling media, and the legal establishment, with false accusations should be a heavily prosecutable crime. Jussie Smollett with a poorly-fitting, short blonde wig.
Oh, she also says Hunter S. Thompson sliced the leggings off her body with a long knife in a hot tub
Which is apparently another woman's story which she has adopted for herself.
@Althouse "He was a bad boyfriend and we have know that all along"
And a bad husband, his ex wife claims he raped her. Shaking my head, thank god Ivanka was raised by her mother and nannies, it is the sole reason she is normal. It is appalling back in 2016 Clinton said he was a good father in the presidential debate "Say something nice about each other segment" (He trashed her of course) why is it that when a poor man on welfare never see's his kids he is a good father but when a CEO never see's his kids he is a role model? (admittedly Trump being a rapist that was for the best)
I think it is quite likely that 20 yrs ago Trump was in the prime of his "male slut phase".
With his wealth & celebrity,he must have been one of the most sexually active males in NYC..
She has never said he ever contacted her again so it seems like it must have seemed a totally unmemorable encounter to him.
Hence,he doesn't remember the encounter much less her name.
If he only had contacted her for an encore or more,she might have remembered him more kindly.
Post a Comment