But, as Jonathan Chait sums up:
Wind turbines do not cause cancer. Some people blame the noise for causing a variety of other health ailments, but these charges have zero scientific validity. Cancer is not caused by noises of any kind....Help answer my question:
ADDED:
Posts
184 comments:
Noise weakens the immune system.
Probably didn't really say it. Link? All I could find was hearsay.
The correct answer is not there (for reals, not just whinging).
To get a conversation going about the general safety of wind turbines because he is about to come out against them. And good for him. One more reason to vote Trump 2020.
The headline is false: Trump Says Wind Turbine Noise Causes Cancer. (It Does Not.)
Wind turbines produce infra-sound, which does have negative health effects. See our diplomats in Cuba. There have been several studies in Germany regarding this.
Thanks, Jonathan Chait!
Can you do power lines and cell phones next?
Hey, let's ask the birds about the turbines' health effects.
Trump tosses out these things because he knows this is how most people talk. “I saw something on the news” or “I read something in the news”
Trump probably thinks this way a lot of times as well. He knows he’s not a scientist and that most science is debunked anyway. That government food pyramid hasn’t age well. AIDS is much more difficult to contract through vaginal sex, etc. Most of the clinate stuff is way overblown. But the climate alarmists are no different than what Trump says here. They, like Trump, know most people are casual observers or readers of news. So whenever there is unexpected weather, they crank up the Climate Change Is Causing It scare.
What Trump is basically saying is it’s okay not to pay attention. It’s all bullshit anyway.
Trump said a lot about the dead birds.
if Jonathan Chait walked in the office soaking wet & said it was raining outside, I'd look out the window to make sure before I believed him.
This is a colloquial way of saying that Mr. Chait has not exactly been a fountain of factual information in the past.
Thank heavens we have renowned scientist Chait to tell us what's what.
Trump said it because he has a vague sense that he's read or heard about negative health effects from windfarms. "Cancer" is a stand-in for that.
Windfarms are a blight on the landscape, kill birds, are not a reliable source of power and will all have to be torn down at great expense in couple decades. An incredible debacle.
“There is no evidence, that any sort of sound — including the low-frequency ones emitted by wind turbines — causes cancer. After all, as Philip Jaekl wrote in the Atlantic in 2017, if it were the case that wind turbine sounds could cause cancer, you’d expect evidence of the connection to emerge among residents of countries that have lots of them, like Denmark. But it hasn’t.
From Jaekl’s piece:
[I]nfrasound from wind turbines is no different than infrasound caused by other harmless, common sources. “Everyone is surrounded by infrasound every day. It’s emitted by natural sources like the surf, storms, wind itself, our own heartbeat and respiration. We also are exposed to it in cars, from ceiling fans, motors, and urban noise,” says Simon Chapman, a professor emeritus at the University of Sydney. “If wind turbines were harmful to nearby residents, entire cities and small nations would be stricken across much of Europe, where we see the highest density. Copenhagen is surrounded by turbines but my Danish colleagues are not seeing queues of sick people.””
Noise is a stressor. What doesn't break you, may make you stronger or leave you weaker.
Wind turbines prevent bird cancer.
Ah, this sounds familiar...
“If Hillary got in … you’d be doing wind,” Trump said. “Windmills. Weeeee. And if it doesn’t blow, you can forget about television for that night. ‘Darling, I want to watch television.’ ‘I’m sorry! The wind isn’t blowing.’ I know a lot about wind.”
——————-
“Trump’s comments betrayed ignorance of how batteries work and of the idea that wind is just one part of a broader renewable energy system.
Asked about Trump’s remarks, Michael Mann, a professor of atmospheric science at Pennsylvania State University, told Newsweek they amounted to “malicious ignorance.”
“The truth is that a combination of wind, solar and other renewables, along with battery and smart grid technology, can provide continuous and abundant electricity,” Mann said.“
Trump didn't say that "Wind Turbine Noise Causes Cancer". He said that "they" say that. But whatever.
We've seen this play many times before. Trump says something outrageous. Some hack writes a whole bloody article about it. That article in turn makes some questionable claims. Everybody suddenly starts talking about a subject that Trump probably wanted people to start talking about.
Video - I think he was saying that the noise from the dying birds causes cancer.
He speaks like a comedy act, the jokes are mixed in with true statements.
Most renewable energy (including wind turbines) is evidence that the environmental movement doesn't really care about the environment.
There are more than a few probable whoppers in the first paragraph of Chait's analysis of Trump's comments.
One thing that most anti Trumpers share is a firm conviction that their beliefs are accurate and justified. So it becomes a sort of pot kettle standoff. Trump doesn't know what he's talking about. The anti Trumper is equally ignorant--just in a different way.
But I'm more interested in the use of the term "they say". It is an unfortunate verbal tic; it's also an appeal to allegedly "expert" sources. It's also a form of "just making stuff up". Who the heck are "they"? If "they" actually exist (usually they don't), then are they actually qualified to express an "expert" opinion.
The other, equally spurious, equivalent of "they say" is "experts say".
The newsroom staff at most major newspapers orders up a couple of bucket loads of "they say" or "experts say" at the start of each working day, and sprinkle them through their "news" articles like fly specks in black pepper.
But maybe Trump was going over to the dark side if he actually said "they say".
Ah yes Michael mann who has been conducting a trial by ordeal os Steyn for the last 7? Years
Bird noise causes sleep deprivation.
“We've seen this play many times before.”
Yes many times, too many times.
“Trump says something outrageous. Some hack writes a whole bloody article about it.”
He’s the POTUS for pity sake. Why are you satisfied with an ignoramus for your President? You don’t expect your President to do a little research before he blurts out stupid shit?
Inga...Allie Oop said...
He’s the POTUS for pity sake. Why are you satisfied with an ignoramus for your President?
Trump's critics are so predictable. It's a technique he uses to force his opponents to address issues they don't want to address. As you may recall from a couple years ago, "Trump's supporters take him seriously but not literally; his critics take him literally but not seriously."
He uses that against you again and again, and you fall for it again and again. At long last, have you NO powers of observation?!
“The truth is that a combination of wind, solar and other renewables, along with battery and smart grid technology, can provide continuous and abundant electricity,” Mann said.
How much would Inga bet on the proposition that Michael Mann plugs into the grid like everyone else?
The truth is... What unmitigated bullshit. Do the experiment, Mikey. Get the equipment, the windmill, the solar cells, whatever, and the batteries, and then disconnect. No fair moving to Death Valley where wind and clear skies are near constant. Do the experiment in Cincinnati where the weather is more typical. Then we'll see what's true.
Trump says stuff. AOC says stuff too. Which one does Chait police?
Abby Normal wrote: He’s the POTUS for pity sake. Why are you satisfied with an ignoramus for your President?
44 wasn't an ignoramus POTUS, was he? Yet he inspired and coordinated the first coup d'etat attempt in American history.
Better an ignoramus President than a treasonous President.
Skeptical Voter said...
The other, equally spurious, equivalent of "they say" is "experts say".
My (least) favorite is Future generations will look back and say...
An appeal to an authority that doesn't even exist yet. If we had any reliable way of knowing what future generations would say, we wouldn't need to appeal to their authority, we could simply say it for ourselves.
He says it to gauge how retarded and gullible his base is.
What did socialists use for lighting before candles?
There is no battery technology yet that can scale, nor are any in a deployable state.
So the argument of Michael Mann is defective at least.
Mann is the fellow who came up with the very misleading "hockey stick" analysis re global warming. There were great controversies about this and there is an ongoing libel suit by Mann against Mark Steyn et al. Mann's analysis has been quietly dropped by later global warming controversialists, it seems because it has become an embarassment even to his allies. Mann is a very questionable analyst.
Inga, 10:49:
"Asked about Trump’s remarks, Michael Mann, a professor of atmospheric science at Pennsylvania State University, told Newsweek they amounted to 'malicious ignorance.'"
Isn't it interesting they went to Michael Mann to ask him about Trump's remarks? He studies paleoclimate. He has no expertise in wind power. I can think of plenty of renewable energy experts who would have been happy to challenge Trump's remarks.
If I didn't know better, I could almost suspect they were pushing an agenda.
Mann, the man who was caught red-handed committing scientific fraud? Hockey-stick Mann? He impresses me almost as much as Professor Chait.
For those who can't get past "Orange Man Bad" here is the decoded message from Trump:
"Windmills are bad. I am against them. The enviro-lefties have been selling you a bill of goods on wind and the rest of that crap."
Which is, of course, quite correct.
They say that solar energy causes skin cancer.
He says it to gauge how retarded and gullible his base is.
Says the lad who bought the hoax for cash.
Windfarms are a blight on the landscape, kill birds, are not a reliable source of power and will all have to be torn down at great expense in couple decades. An incredible debacle.
Amen.
Though I believe small-scale wind turbines in private business has a future in powering, say, LED lights and satellite devices in remote locations.
Isn't it interesting they went to Michael Mann to ask him about Trump's remarks? He studies paleoclimate...
Isn't it interesting they went to Michael Mann to ask him about Trump's remarks? He fabricates paleoclimate... FIFY
He’s the POTUS for pity sake. Why are you satisfied with an ignoramus for your President? You don’t expect your President to do a little research before he blurts out stupid shit?
It's called priorities.
Trump is endlessly Tweeting, talking to reporters, saying stuff publicly every single day. He communicates far more than any other president. He does it for all sorts of reasons (I'm sure even sometimes maybe just out of boredom). Much of it is outragous. A lot of it is far from flawless. Not everything he says is defensible and I'd be crazy to try to defend all of it.
All other things being equal, would I want prefer a measured, well spoken president, who didn't make claims that weren't well researched, who rarely made gaffes, who was polite and fair to everyone, who was generally quiet and reserved, even boring? Of course I would.
But on the priorities of things I want in a president, all that falls below a bunch of other stuff... stuff that I think Trump has (so far) done surprisingly good job at.
“Trump’s comments betrayed ignorance of how batteries work and of the idea that wind is just one part of a broader renewable energy system."
We are back to Lefty/LLR Magic Unicorn Batteries again!!
Trump is instinctively brilliant in his exploitation of the lefties pavlovian reactions to what is clearly Trumps employment of obamas "Stray Voltage" tactics....with one major improvement.
Whereas the media act as the The Pravda-like amplifiers of the far left/lefty-LLR narratives, Trump, via technique alone, gets these lefty/LLR hacks to discuss subjects he wants raised and discussed in ways the lefties/LLR's hate because it is to their disadvantage.
Is Trump a superior communications and messaging guru or are the dems/left/LLR's just that dumb?
I will choose to embrace the concept of "and".
“The Republican affinity for kook pseudoscientific claims helps explain why his allies didn’t run screaming from the room in existential terror when they heard the most powerful person in the world assert that the noise from wind turbines causes cancer. “Wind turbine noise causes cancer,” the assembled members of Congress immediately intuited; it is simply another completely insane notion that Republicans are now expected either to promote or to quietly tolerate.”
Exactly right Jonathan.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
——————-
“Trump’s comments betrayed ignorance of how batteries work and of the idea that wind is just one part of a broader renewable energy system.
Asked about Trump’s remarks, Michael Mann, a professor of atmospheric science at Pennsylvania State University, told Newsweek they amounted to “malicious ignorance.”
“The truth is that a combination of wind, solar and other renewables, along with battery and smart grid technology, can provide continuous and abundant electricity,” Mann said.“
Mann is one of the smart ones.
Is Mann stupid enough to think battery technology is capable of supporting an electric grid?
Or is he evil and telling stupid people that Wind is an energy source that could be a part of an effective power grid?
To understand a power grid you have to understand the concept of load or base load and peak load. There are sources and draws.
Your sources need to be consistent. Wind and solar with current technology are just completely insufficient. Even with a magical battery system they will be inefficient as there is massive transfer loss when you load and drain a battery.
The energy it takes to make a wind turbine is insane. Same with a solar panel. The current solar panel production is so destructive to the environment that they are all made in China to avoid US environmental laws which you would have to get waivers for.
Even if you had some magic 100% efficient photo-voltaic paint there isn't enough energy per surface area in many places at many times of the year to generate solar electricity unless you want to paint the earth with it. Same with wind.
Only an idiot would think these are useful sources of energy.
He says it to gauge how retarded and gullible his enemies are..
FIFY
Asked about Trump’s remarks, Michael Mann, a professor of atmospheric science at Pennsylvania State University, told Newsweek they amounted to 'malicious ignorance.
Michael Mann's hockey stick was malicious ignorance.
Inga now holding Chait out as some sort of wind tech expert!!
LOL
Perfect. Simply perfect.
It just keeps getting better and better.
Wind and solar are drivers, green, and renewable. The rotary-driven turbines and principally photovoltaic panels are gray, nonrenewable, and environmentally disruptive. Our battery technology is only capable of buffering the intermittent energy conversion, which is suitable for many consumer and low availability niche applications.
I've stood at the base of one of those monstrosities. They dot the horizon in West Texas and there are some on my husband's family farm; they were/are paid to have them there.
Besides being creepy as heck, like something out of Cloverfield, the whoop sound may not cause cancer, but after a bit it sure makes you want to strangle someone. Irritating as heck.
buwaya said...
There is no battery technology yet that can scale, nor are any in a deployable state.
So the argument of Michael Mann is defective at least.
Mann is the fellow who came up with the very misleading "hockey stick" analysis re global warming.
There is no doubt Mann is a liar and a cheat.
The question is is he dumb enough to actually believes the lies that stupid leftists are spouting out here.
He knew what he was doing when he was fudging the data.
I remember all the hysteria on the left about what Reagan said.
Democrats might try to remember how the 1984 election turned out.
Why don't you do the experiment, Inga? Get the gear and disconnect. I predict we won't hear from you again if you do.
The only two effective non-fossil fuel sources of energy are hydroelectric power and nuclear power, so of course the Left opposes them as much as fossil fuels.
Quaestor, 11:10:
With some effort I was setting aside my view of his remarkable ability to select tree rings. Personally I think "Mike's Nature trick" should have gotten him run out of his field on a rail by the very people who look up to him, for bringing discredit on all of them.
Those are my opinions. Setting them aside, whether I think he should be or not, Mann is a recognized climate expert. As far as I can tell he has no expertise on renewable energy other than a strong opinion that we should use much more of it relative to fossil fuels. I can find no evidence that he knows more about wind power than any intelligent, technically literate layman who spends a few hours reading about it.
They say glyphosate causes cancer. They, are 2 juries, despite no research ever proving causality.
If you fear global warming, buy uranium shares.
Oops. I forgot. Hillary sold all the uranium to Vlad Putin.
The truth is that a combination of wind, solar and other renewables, along with battery and smart grid technology, can provide continuous and abundant electricity,” Mann said.
Then why hasn't this happened anywhere yet...even in places where they are spending billions trying to accomplish this? (e.g. Germany)
Only nuclear and hydroelectric power are predictable and consistent enough to be effective alternatives to fossil fuels and the Left opposes both of them.
Setting them aside, whether I think he should be or not, Mann is a recognized climate expert.
Fruit of the poisonous tree.
Only nuclear and hydroelectric power are predictable and consistent enough...
To sustain a base load and provided reliable power for high availability applications. Only nuclear reactors can be reasonably isolated from the environment and provide sustainable, safe, high availability power to consumers, industry, and battery-buffered applications alike.
Howard said...
He says it to gauge how retarded and gullible his base is.
"If everyone in america would inflate their tires to the proper level we would actually save more oil than all the oil we were gonna get from John McCain drillin right there right below his feet there like where ever he was gonna drill."
Watch that entire video clip.
Obama is a fucking idiot and he pairs that with unshakable arrogance.
All the people that voted for him are just really dumb. Listen to all the barking seals in that audience.
All the people who think wind and solar energy are the answer to anything right now are just really stupid people.
It was the oranges. That's where I had them.
“The truth is that a combination of wind, solar and other renewables, along with battery and smart grid technology, can provide continuous and abundant electricity,” Mann said.“
I work in business development for a US electric utility that has been a leader in wind-derived electricity for more than a decade and also has the largest solar garden in the US. Mann is full of shit.
Cold fusion
If you are using as a source a twitter post without any context, you should be ashamed.
And you should stop doing that.
Find the text of the speech, tell us the context, then we might know at least what was said, in context, and be able to determine what the intent was.
LOLOLOLOL
Inga now comes out against tall buildings!!
And the lefties now claim the assertion that windturbines kill large numbers of birds only contains a "grain of truth"!!!
LOL
Thats not a grain of truth, its a whole loaf.
And which unlucky guy or gal wants the job of teaching Inga and newly designated "Wind Expert" Chait on the way to properly analyze the Buildings vs Wind Turbines as cause of bird death problem?
Too funny.
he's like the Piltdown fraudster, did they ever catch him
I am taking no position on the pernicious effects of constant sound- but there isn't actual proof that the sound emitted by wind turbines is harmless. I have visited wind farms, and I would not want to try to live near one- they are not silent and they are not like the white noise produced by the fan I run when sleeping at night- the frequency is much lower and disturbing to me, at least. It would likely take me a long time to reach the point where I couldn't notice their presence.
Can the sound cause cancer? Surely not in a direct fashion, but I could easily see a case to study whether they disrupt sleep and cause stress that are known factors in ill health effects.
I'm not watching anything Achilles. You eat enough chaff for the whole world.
During Trump's presidency, journalists have been reporting his statements like this:
Today, President Trump said -- without providing any proof -- that ....
Obama was President for eight years, but no journalist ever said:
Today, President Obama said -- without providing any proof -- that ....
Mann is a POS, I'll grant you that.
They say journalists are the dumbest people on the planet, but I have my doubts.
I asked this a while back, but is there a way to block commenters? Inga is insufferably stupid.
“Someone’s gonna leak this whole damn speech to the media,” Trump worried aloud.
"please, Br'er Fox, don't fling me in dat brier-patch,"
Are these people still talking about Trump? Does that mean they're not talking about the Democrats running for office?
Does that mean none of them are gaining traction?
Is the election getting one day closer?
Hmmmm.
I don’t know if wind turbine noise is harmful other than being obnoxious, but does baby powder cause ovarian cancer? Some personal injury attorneys seem to think ($$$) so.
Why are you satisfied with an ignoramus for your President?
Why do you progressives insist on calling him stupid after he out-played and out-campaigned and out-polled every brilliant lefty in Media and Politics? Do you losers not see the irony of calling your betters stupid?
Skippy, look here. I don't know if this would work on this blog- I don't use such features, but I have heard that some commenters here do use it.
How about we rephrase as:
It is believed that Trump colluded with the Russians to hack our wind turbines, to cause cancer in people so as to interfere with our elections.
Now it is good enough for Rachel Maddow.
I am Laslo.
Howard: "I'm not watching anything Achilles."
Obviously.
“Trump’s comments betrayed ignorance of how batteries work and of the idea that wind is just one part of a broader renewable energy system.
Shorter version: Trump was right, but we'll destroy the environment to make huge batteries that can't go into landfills to prove him wrong!
Normal people know tearing up the energy grid to put batteries everywhere is a dumb idea.
Experts call that a "solution"...
Laslo: "Now it is good enough for Rachel Maddow."
Almost.
The missing piece is at least one russian-sounding name that LLR Chuck's "brilliant" Maddow can repeat over and over and over again 'cuz thats what makes for compelling lunatic lefty/LLR television.
Trump supporter are gullible?
Who are the anti-vaxxers?
Who are the ones who can't even decide what sex they are?
Who are the ones who count on unicorn energy to run their New Deal?
Who are the ones that cite "consensus" in lieu of the scientific method?
Who are the ones that call skeptics "climate deniers"?
What does "climate denier" even mean?
Once again (and again, and again) "Squirrel!"
And once again, the left goes barking off at nothing. Just like scaring fainting goats: it never gets old!
Wind turbines do not cause cancer
I certainly would be impressed to see him prove that. Personally, i have a hard time proving negatives
The Big One thought is:
Who talks about wind and solar but never mentions both require a consts steady fossil fuel source running continuously on stand-by just in case the wind fails or a cloud passes over?
Who knowing the above is true does not do the math to discover "renewables" actually require more inputs (more fuel, more energy) than good old fossil fuels alone would use?
Who thinks that is smart?
“Who are the anti-vaxxers?”
Trump Twitter Archive, vaccines
They say that falling in love is wonderful...."They" say a lot of things, many of which get reported in the MSM.
Up until Trump, only the Leftist MSM were "They" whisperers. Now, we have a They Whisperer of our own, using the power of the Tweet to get the word out. No, they don't like it, one bit.
Of course we knew you'd post that, Inga. Trump vaccinated his kids. Those who DON'T are affluent, educated liberals in Santa Monica, Portland and Seattle:
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/parents-vaccinate-kids-tend-affluent-educated-experts/story?id=60674519
Us deplorables care about are children and public health unlike those selfish rich bastards in the bluest areas who free ride on public health, stupidly.
“Who are the anti-vaxxers?”
“Texas Megachurch At Center Of Measles Outbreak. The Eagle Mountain International Church in Newark, Texas, is linked to at least 21 cases of measles. Measles was declared eliminated in the U.S. more than a decade ago.Sep 1, 2013“
“Who are the anti-vaxxers?”
“Through the fall, traveler after traveler arrived in the ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities of New York from areas of Israel and Europe where measles was spreading. They then spent time in homes, schools and shops in communities where too many people were unvaccinated.
Within months, New York State was facing its most severe outbreak of the disease in decades, with 182 cases confirmed by Thursday, almost exclusively among ultra-Orthodox Jews. Health officials in New Jersey have reported 33 measles cases, mostly in Ocean County, driven by similar conditions.
In 2018, New York and New Jersey accounted for more than half the measles cases in the country.”
NYT
there is skepticism through out, but it does seem to have purchase among upper income,
https://babalublog.com/2019/04/03/new-orleans-mayor-latoya-cantrell-on-visit-to-stalinist-impoverished-disease-ridden-cuba-to-in-her-own-words-learn-unique-opportunities-in-the-areas-of-economic-development-wheres-monty/
Is this the same Jonathan Chait who just wrote an article about how Trump "might" have been a Russian asset since 1987?
Mike
Ask the Chinese peasants digging the rare earth metals out of the ground that are needed for the turbines if turbines cause cancer.
“The worst measles outbreak in recent New York history is hitting the Hasidic Jewish community due to low vaccination rates.
With 55 cases in Brooklyn and 116 in two upstate counties since late September, it is the second time in five years that the community has seen a measles crisis. The previous record outbreak, in 2013, was entirely within Brooklyn’s Orthodox enclaves.
Experts say the outbreak has been caused by a mix of ignorance on how and when to get vaccines — common in insular communities — and pockets of stubborn resistance to accepted medical views on vaccination.
“This is not a Hasidic problem, this is an anti-vaccination problem,” said Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt, a rabbi and hospital epidemiologist at South Nassau Communities Hospital on Long Island, and who identifies as Orthodox.”
Read more: https://forward.com/news/national/417390/measles-is-hitting-ultra-orthodox-communities-why-arent-they-vaccinating/
yes, chaitred, the very same journolisto,
Howard said...
I'm not watching anything Achilles.
The jokes write themselves.
Every now and then I think you might not be dumb. Then...
People say "they say..." when they don't believe it themselves, or don't know, but still want to say it so you will think about it. Wow, so hard to figure out.
Same as:
"a recent study suggests..."
"according to an anonymous source..."
"I know a guy who..."
"The vast majority of Americans..."
"The consensus is..."
Headlines claim Trump claimed...
Even Trump doesn't call himself "they".
Inga...Allie Oop said...
“Who are the anti-vaxxers?”
Trump Twitter Archive, vaccines
All of Trump's kids are fully vaccinated.
Stupid people ignore that fact and vote for democrats.
The progressives sure have an affinity for old technology: trains, windmills, royalty, socialism, etc.
The First Step Act alone proves Trump is 100% Christian. Wiggle your slimy pretend religiositu around that reality. The body of Christ wins by serving those brothers in need. Virtue awards claimed for your piety are worthless garbage.
But not walls, bagoh. Well, walls, but not "the wall".
With Trump it's the simplest explanation. He just says stuff.
MBunge: "Is this the same Jonathan Chait who just wrote an article about how Trump "might" have been a Russian asset since 1987?"
Indeed. He bit down on that laughable obvious hoax as hard as our LLR/Inga tandem!
Why would Inga have more than one comment connecting Jews to vaccination?
I guess it's just a Democrat thing.
A Democrat thing.
“The truth is that a combination of wind, solar and other renewables, along with battery and smart grid technology, can provide continuous and abundant electricity,” Mann said.“
**************
And where in the world, one asks, has that result been achieved.
Nowhere. Every country that's tried it has achieved only routine blackouts, intermittent power levels, the need for continual on-line backups from nuclear/fossil sources, and very expensive electricity.
If anything it's a play on they say "everything causes cancer".
Going by Trump's record on this kind of thing we can expect that in the coming months it will be discovered that turbine noise does indeed cause cancer. Of course, he didn't say that. He said others had said it, so maybe it won't work on this one.
It was a joke, but sure to rile people up.
The fact-checkers will point out wind turbines don't cause cancer, they just cause stress and kill birds.
Result: "wind turbines cause stress and kill birds" is broadcast all over the media.
Scott Adams' basic theory of Trump continues to be bolstered by successful predictions.
"The energy it takes to make a wind turbine is insane. Same with a solar panel. The current solar panel production is so destructive to the environment that they are all made in China to avoid US environmental laws which you would have to get waivers for."
Piece of environmental trivia - one of the fastest ways to shut down wind and solar in this country would be to withdraw all of the Executive Vranch waivers to their advantage. For example, killing eagles is a crime in this country - unless you do it with a wind turbine.
The bulbs are toxic and require special hazmat gear:
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/273348/prince-charles-snubs-president-trump-humberto-fontova?fbclid=IwAR1_I-3V23lRdyHa4DHRUmz4n3ckM7rGAqonKOj1mwwSKSBbm_7dndauyek#.XKSneXI6Igw.facebook
Asked about Trump’s remarks, Michael Mann, a professor of atmospheric science at Pennsylvania State University, told Newsweek they amounted to “malicious ignorance.”
“The truth is that a combination of wind, solar and other renewables, along with battery and smart grid technology, can provide continuous and abundant electricity,” Mann said.“
Our cut and pasting resident dullard thinks the go to guy on all this technology is a professor of atmospheric science...and a liar.
”Why would Inga have more than one comment connecting Jews to vaccination?”
Idiotic comment, or you really ARE a senile coot. You call yourself a doctor? Thank God you no longer practice. You sound almost as dumb as Incurious George.
“This is not a Hasidic problem, this is an anti-vaccination problem,” said Rabbi Dr. Aaron Glatt, a rabbi and hospital epidemiologist at South Nassau Communities Hospital on Long Island, and who identifies as Orthodox
Incurious George thinks he’s smarter than Michael Mann.
LOL, now go work in your garage ( that’s more your speed) you retarted chimp.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
Incurious George thinks he’s smarter than Michael Mann.
LOL, now go work in your garage ( that’s more your speed) you retarted chimp.
Are you drunk?
This post seems designed to scream how stupid the person posting it is.
Is someone trying to make Inga look bad?
These are honest questions.
I expect these all to get deleted.
Since measles vaccine was created in the sixties, I imagine many boomers got the disease.
Was it a real problem, decimating entire populations? Or was it like chicken pox, inevitable, uncomfortable, and surviveable?
Asking commenters who actually had measles,or knew someone who did. not looking for cut and paste statistics.
How is "they say" different from "anonymous sources say"?
Quaestor said...
What did socialists use for lighting before candles?
4/3/19, 11:07 AM
Electricity.
“Are you drunk?”
Are you pumped up on steroids? You always appear to be in some state of ‘roid rage...or something.
Statistically it's a very small number, considering the cohort we're dealing with.
Asking commenters who actually had measles, or knew someone who did. not looking for cut and paste statistics.
I had both rubella and roseola. The bad form left me in a dark room for two weeks as photophobia was common and my parents feared worse, which was usually encephalitis.
My great great uncle James Kennedy died at 18 from measles caught in a Civil War army camp. It was similar to Spanish flue in WWI.
I was just curious Inga, given that you are a devoted member of the Part of Death and the Party of Omar.
All you need to know about the Enviro-zealots can be learned simply by looking at hydroelectric dams.
They are - by far - the most efficient, reusable, cleanest, safest energy source created to date. And they want to tear out and/or breach them.
It's not about the environment with these assholes. It's about control.
It's long past time somebody called them out and if people don't like the way Trump goes about it? Tough shit.
I've come to realize that everything liberals like are healthy--and everything liberals despise (awaiting a ban) causes cancer, or destroys the planet.
Oh, eggs are bad again.
Aside: I wish a certain person would show Althouse enough respect to not treat the lifting of moderation as a license to kill....so to speak.
Ugh.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
Incurious George thinks he’s smarter than Michael Mann.
LOL, now go work in your garage ( that’s more your speed) you retarted chimp.
*********************
Ahhh...the Mistress of Fallacies pounces....
Whether Michael Mann is "smart" is not at issue. His scientific claims, and his falsification of data on his infamous Hockey Stick graph, *are* at issue. (Even the IPCC doesn't use that stinker any more.)
Since measles vaccine was created in the sixties, I imagine many boomers got the disease.
Was it a real problem, decimating entire populations? Or was it like chicken pox, inevitable, uncomfortable, and surviveable?
Asking commenters who actually had measles,or knew someone who did. not looking for cut and paste statistics.
Born in '62. Everyone had the 3 'get them out of the way' diseases--Mumps, measles, chicken pox.
The big thing back then was your polio vaccine. Getting the 'mark' on your shoulder almost became a status symbol...being old enough to get the vaccine.
Gahrie,
I'd add geothermal, Otec, waste to energy. and a couple other technologies.
You can also digest cos and pigshit to make methane. Some might say that is a fossil fuel.
Landfill gas is another renewable. Again it is methane so do you lump it as a fossil fuel?
John Henry
Cows shit.
John Henry
We have 13 1mw (nominal) windmills near my house. The blades were all destroyed by the hurricane nearly 2 years ago. Otherwise the seem fine.
It is not cost effective to replace the blades.
Windmills are cost effective to build because of tax credits, subsidies etc. They are not cost effective to operate maintain or repair.
When they break, even in fairly minor ways, they are abandoned.
John Henry
Blogger John henry said...
Gahrie,
I'd add geothermal, Otec, waste to energy. and a couple other technologies.
You can also digest cos and pigshit to make methane. Some might say that is a fossil fuel.
Landfill gas is another renewable. Again it is methane so do you lump it as a fossil fuel?
None of these things you mention are scalable.
Interesting -- "Robert Kennedy Jr.: The Trump White House Has Shut Me Out on Vaccines":
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. said on Tuesday that the Trump administration had turned its back on vaccine skeptics, including himself, after initially expressing interest in creating a group to look into their safety.
“He told me that he wanted to create a vaccine safety commission and that he wanted me to chair it,” Kennedy said in response to a question at the Connecticut Vaccine Science Forum. “He asked me to announce it at a press conference, to the press at Trump tower and almost immediately I started feeling a lot of blowback within the administration.”
Kennedy said that at the beginning of the administration, he met with Trump, former White House chief of staff Reince Priebus, senior adviser Jared Kushner, former senior advisor Steve Bannon and counselor to the president Kellyanne Conway about setting up the commission.
Why don't you do the experiment, Inga? Get the gear and disconnect. I predict we won't hear from you again if you do.
Maybe on sunny days when the wind is howling.
My father was born in rural Nebraska in 1922. Growing up he had electricity via a wind turbine and lead-acid batteries. Obviously the technology today is better. Marginally better.
Warren Buffet invests in wind power. But he's honest enough to say he ONLY does it because the subsidies make it worthwhile.
Born in 1951, I had measles before the vaccine sometime in elementary school. At the time, it was running rampant in my school. They gave a shot of gamma globulin to make it less awful, but it was still pretty awful. High fever, photophobia. The rash was the least part of it. I think we went through all the "childhood" diseases, measles, mumps, German measles, roseola, chickenpox and "5th disease." Measles was the worst.
Wind Turbines > Bird Die Off > Insect Plague > Blue City Famine
Mwuhahahahaha!
The worst 'disease; I ever got as a kid was poison ivy. Head to toe; crotch, eyes.
Son.Of. A Bitch.
There's another choice I wish I'd put in the survey:
To create a bond with the kind of people who have fears and resistance to what experts say about science.
Save the eagle! Spare the butterfly. Never forget the lizard divested by the artificial green blight.
The big thing back then was your polio vaccine. Getting the 'mark' on your shoulder almost became a status
Dr K?
wasn't the polio vaccine a red liquid (that came in a little plastic container?)
weren't the 'mark's on our arms the TB tests? (or maybe the smallpox?)
I'm talking about the 1960's; and you're our medical expert
thanx!
Ann Althouse said...
There's another choice I wish I'd put in the survey:
To create a bond with the kind of people who have fears and resistance to what experts say about science.
At least you called them experts.
Hack is a better term.
Because the backers of global warming are certainly not using the scientific method or any techniques that could remotely be described as science.
Oh, eggs are bad again.
The incredible, edible egg? No!!!
Full of hunger striking proteins, that keep our diet moderate, our brain and limbs active, and our bodies slim. Don't forget the B12, naturally, exclusively from animal sources.
Getting the 'mark' on your shoulder almost became a status<
I think that was a reference to Vaccinia for smallpox. An old expression for someone who talked too much was "She was vaccinated with a phonograph needle." Two obsolete items.
Salk polio was an injection (three actually), Sabin was a sugar cube.
Blogger Michael K said...
Getting the 'mark' on your shoulder almost became a status<
I think that was a reference to Vaccinia for smallpox
No kidding?
The round one, that moved up, down, side to side as you got older(on your shoulder)?
First comment I saw, starting from the end, Dr. Michael: "She was vaccinated by a phonograph needle." When I was little, people used to say the same of me! Either that, or they'd call me a 'little baba.' Those vaccine scars were cooler than tattoos when I was growing up. I remember getting shots, and being disappointed that I didn't get the indents like my older, more awesome cousins had on their shoulders.
"Born in '62. Everyone had the 3 'get them out of the way' diseases--Mumps, measles, chicken pox.
Born in '58, and that's how it was for us too. Everybody got all three, and got them young. All three sucked, but no worse than a bad cold or flu. Nobody seemed worried about them much, except trying not to spread it. You just rode it out, and Mom would nurse you back, like Moms do. You kinda felt relieved to get it, becuase that was an accomplishment. You couldn't get it again.
thanx Doc K! I thought it was smallpox, that left the permanent scar, but i remembered the TB test too (which, if i remember right, didn't do anything, unless you'd had it)
Wind Turbines = Cell Phone Towers = Power Line Towers. There might be a couple grant dollars out there for Magnetism Studies.
I am honestly still trying to warm up to the current executive, though I respect the Office. Do have to admit that his Elephant Gun Rhetoric is generally on point and f#cking hilariously so.
Trotted out against Trump ...
***There is no evidence the noise from windmills causes cancer.***
Trump is going for " need for evidence " to be the meme torpedo circulating in the culture.
To create a bond with the kind of people who have fears and resistance to what experts say about science.
Since, over my lifetime, the so called experts have been more wrong than right in many of their breathless pronouncements. They rush to make an edict about something without definitive proof or based on "models". Years later they find out that they were mistaken, partly wrong or completely wrong. Food pyramid. Butter bad/butter good. Oleo good/Oleo bad. Take this. Eat that. Use sanitizer/don't use sanitizer. We are headed for an ice age/OH NO!! we are going to all burn up with Global Warming and now they can't make up their minds so itis Climate Change. On and on and on a litany of bullshit.
So. It isn't that I have fears about what they say. I have extreme skepticism.
Based on past experience, I think they don't know what they are talking about and I'll wait until there is real proof before I start changing MY life.
Wind Turbines. Don't have to cause cancer to be terrible. The noise, the pollution from the components manufacturing, the holocaust of destruction in the killing of endagered birds and vital species of birds. The food chain that is disrupted for this. With NO PROOF that this type of energy generation is a vital thing. It is popular....but so was cocaine.
Could it be sour grapes after Trump International Golf Club Scotland Ltd lost its lawsuit against the Scottish government over a planned wind farm near his golf club and was ordered to pay the costs? Surely not!
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-47400641
How was Trump not the president much sooner?
Des Moines, Iowa (AP)
Trump, at the National Republican Congressional Committee's annual spring dinner Tuesday night, said noise from wind turbines causes cancer.
Sen. Chuck Grassley said in a conference call with reporters Wednesday that the comments "were first of all idiotic and it doesn't show much respect for Chuck Grassley as the grandfather of the wind energy tax credit."
Grassley was instrumental in approving a federal tax credit 26 years ago that has spurred wind energy development.
The White House declined to comment.
Iowa is a national leader in wind energy, with more than 4,000 turbines.
She [ Gov. Kim Reynolds] noted Iowa generates 40% of its electricity from wind.
As usual the MSM have lied about what Trump said. The MSM represent him as saying "Windmills cause Cancer". Sorry he didn't say that. Trump said "They say...". Well, "They" say a lot of stuff.
Windmills kill a lot of birds. And "They say" power lines cause cancer. So maybe "They" are right about windmills.
There is no raw, independent date showing how much electricity a wind farm generates, or how much it cost without taxpayer subsidies.
I drive through 26 miles of turbines once a week, and today was the first time they all faced the same direction, and rotated at the same speed.
It was really windy today.
I wish you'd put another choice:
Do Windmills cause cancer? Who the hell knows, the MSM never prints anything about it!
"They said" Cellphones caused cancer. Remember that? Has that been debunked? I don't know.
I'm agnostic on Windwills, like most things. Give us the facts. Give us the objective pros and cons. How much do they cost compared to other forms of Energy? What are the drawbacks? What are the benefits. What is the Environmental impact?
Instead all we get is "See the pretty Windmills - its clean energy unlike nasty oil". We're not all 18 year old girls. Give us the facts - not propaganda.
rcocean: "Give us the facts. Give us the objective pros and cons"
?????!!!!!
This is an argument about leftists and LLR-leftists increasing the power of government over individuals in order to advance their leftist agenda.
Why do you insist on pretending "facts" are even a part of this discussion?
At bottom it is to get discussion going about the uselessness and wastefulness of using undependable windmills to intermittently make electricity at utility scale, such that if these people really were so concerned about some CO2 desequestration they would be shilling for nukes, not windmills - the intentional hyperbole that drives his opposition nutz. This also sets him up for some future mockery about the supposed "precautionary principle" that is invoked by lefties only in situations where for whatever unscientific reason they oppose or support something, no matter how the underlying technology is, such as e.g., plant hybridization.
The link below is an analysis of wind and solar power in Germany. One problem with both with no matter how much you have installed- there are days when both the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. And the sun never shines at night. Another problem is- if you've installed more than your demand- if the sun shines brightly and the wind is blowing hard- what do you do with the excess power?
Denmark has at times produced quite an excess of wind power. It feeds the excess to other European countries via grid interties. You can find lots of articles on theeir success in achieving this. What I couldn't find in a quick search is something I know is true- they give the power away or even have to pay the other countries to accept it BECAUSE it causes instability in everyone's grid. And even as their wind turbines are spinning- so are all their backup plants because they're needed for when the wind dies down, and there's no such thing as instant starting. The generators have to warmed uup and rolling when the demand hits.
https://notrickszone.com/2019/03/06/unreliable-power-source-adding-capacity-does-little-to-solve-germanys-green-energy-power-gaps/
A for solar power- NPR is a big supporter. This is an article from NPR on the problems the California grid faced with the rare and predicable event of a solar eclipse.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/18/543462652/california-prepares-for-an-eclipse-of-its-solar-power
@DBQ,
You do not know what scientists say; you only know what "they" say scientists say.
I think wind turbines are hideous.
I have family in rural Wisconsin and I grew up visiting their homes and farms. It was beautiful. Now - ugly bird-killing noisy eyesore wind-turbines all over. It gave me a bit of cancer in my heart to look upon that once beautiful landscape - to see it scarred by the church of the proggy.
DBQ said ...It isn't that I have fears about what they say. I have extreme skepticism.
Skepticism will soon be outlawed.
“Now - ugly bird-killing noisy eyesore wind-turbines all over.”
Um, no. They aren’t “all over”. I live in Wisconsin and there is a large field of them near Horicon. That’s the only place I’ve seen them. There may be a few more. If you’re really feeling “cancer in your heart” over wind turbines, you should see the sand mining operations in western WI and what they have done to the landscape and farms near them.
“...to see it scarred by the church of the proggy.”
What a dumb comment. Have you forgotten who was Governor from 2010 until 2018?
This was all part of a rambling incoherent monologue that portents early signs of dementia and. tilting at wind mills.
In this age you have to disprove it or it is so. This is the standard the AGW "scientists" use. Hold them to their own standards. Any study proving noise doesn't cause cancer? Remember the claim cell towers were causing bees to die off.
They say CO2 is gonna kill us all in 10 years.
They say central American peasants will Reconquista the estates uni-dos
Walker was critical of the wind industry. In 2010 he said that wind power was “an expensive, inefficient source of electricity and thus any further construction of wind turbines simply is not a policy goal or objective that should be pursued further.”
Good news. Google and facebook only want to move to states with vast amounts of ugly wind farms.
Horicon? no. The wind turbines I saw, and there were many, were someplace else.
Blogger Gospace said...
The link below is an analysis of wind and solar power in Germany. One problem with both with no matter how much you have installed- there are days when both the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. And the sun never shines at night. Another problem is- if you've installed more than your demand- if the sun shines brightly and the wind is blowing hard- what do you do with the excess power?
I can probably find the link if pressed but last month I was reading an article about wind power in Australia. The argument is that by having the windmills dispersed over a wide area (Harder to service), and lots of excess capacity (expensive) all tied together in a national grid (a good idea even with normal power generation)they would always have power since the wind is always blowing somewhere, right? If there is no wind in Melbourne, it will probably be blowing in Brisbane or Sydney.
Except that there have been a a number of days, dozens over the past 5 or so years, where there was no wind blowing in tens of thousands of square miles. Basically all of southeastern Australia. Not in Sydney. Not in Brisbane, not in Melbourne, not anywhere.
It caused some serious outages.
John Henry
Windmills have a capacity factor ranging from 5 to 25%. Almost never better than 25%. Ever. Anywhere. (With a very few exceptions) That means that a windmill that is nominally rated at 1MW, (1,000KW) is the functional equivalent of a 50 to 250KW fossil fueled generator. That 500 foot tall windmill will put out less power than many 1/2 ton pickup trucks. Maybe not even as much as my Hyundai sedan.
And that is under "good" wind conditions.
John Henry
Oh, Inga, Inga, Inga. Bless your heart.
There's this thing called Wikipedia? Ever hear of it? You can look of things like windmill farms on it. Here's the link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Wisconsin
Here's a list of some of them. Windmills are probably 1-1.5MW so divide the MW rating by that to get the number of windmills at each site. The link does give total counts for some though not all. For example there is a windmill farm in Fond du Lac with 90 windmills. Another in Columbia has about 100.
Some of them go back to 1990.
Glenmore 1.2
Lincoln Turbines 9.2
Rosiere Wind Farm 11.2
Byron 1.3
Montfort Wind Farm 30
Cedar Ridge Wind Farm 68
Blue Sky Green Field 145.2
Butler Ridge 54
Forward Wind 129
Shirley Wind 20
Glacier Hills Wind 162
Cashton Greens Wind 5
Epic's Galactic Wind 9.9
Quilt Block Wind 98
I have read that Altamonte Pass in California is the single best wind site in the US in terms of wind speed and steadiness. If it is not THE best, it is certainly one of the best.
From Wikipedia:
The wind farm is composed of 4930[2] relatively small wind turbines of various types, making it at one time the largest wind farm in the world in terms of capacity. Altamont Pass is still one of the largest concentration of wind turbines in the world, with a capacity of 576 megawatts (MW), producing about 125 MW on average and 1.1 terawatt-hours (TWh) yearly.[3] They were installed after the 1970s energy crisis in response to favorable tax policies for investors.
Interstate 80(?) runs right through it. I've driven it and it is a horrifying, post-apocalyptic sight. Windmills as far as the eye can see. I've read that only about 50% are functional because it costs too much to tear them down or fix them.
That 125 average megawatt is the capacity of a medium gas turbine that would fit on a rail car.
A typical utility generating plant is in the 500-1,000MW range and will run at about 95% over the course of the year.
In Puerto Rico, the power authority has not reported the numbers since before the hurricane but in 2017, they were paying 2 different windfarms 18 cents/KWH. They pay 17 cents for solar. Looking at the quantity purchased over the course of the year, I calculated 15-20% capacity factors.
We also have a large combined cycle/cogeneration gas turbine facility that is privately owned. It runs on LNG. The price they sell for varies with the cost of natural gas but has been as low as about 7.5 cents and as high as 11 cents over the 2 years I could find data for. It ran at about 90%.
Oh, yeah, our legislature passed and our governor is supposed to sign (if he has not already) legislation requiring 100% renewable energy by 2050.
Signing may be delayed by a trip to DC to punch out President Trump for only sending $40-80 Billion (with a B) in hurricane relief. $40-80 Billion because there does not seem to be agreement on how to count it. One thing all our pols do agree on is that whether $40bn or $80bn they want more and it's all PDJT's fault we even had a hurricane in the first place and are not getting more aid in the second.
I am embarrassed to mention this since that money comes out our your pockets. Keep that in mind week after next. (tax day)
John Henry
BTW: I do NOT pay US income tax since I am a resident of Puerto Rico.
I do pay local income tax and probably at a higher rate than most people in the upper 50 pay in state and federal income tax.
I do pay Social Security taxes and every other federal tax.
John Henry
I wondered about that John Henry, the Orlando stations dont fill in those details, twice ths cost and probably half the power.
Trump says a lot of shit. Not my job to clarify.
It seems we need to build some sort of wall. Rather nuts out there today.
I have read that Altamonte Pass in California is the single best wind site in the US in terms of wind speed and steadiness. If it is not THE best, it is certainly one of the best.
From Wikipedia:
The wind farm is composed of 4930[2] relatively small wind turbines of various types, making it at one time the largest wind farm in the world in terms of capacity. Altamont Pass is still one of the largest concentration of wind turbines in the world, with a capacity of 576 megawatts (MW), producing about 125 MW on average and 1.1 terawatt-hours (TWh) yearly.[3] They were installed after the 1970s energy crisis in response to favorable tax policies for investors.
Interstate 80(?) runs right through it. I've driven it and it is a horrifying, post-apocalyptic sight. Windmills as far as the eye can see. I've read that only about 50% are functional because it costs too much to tear them down or fix them.
That 125 average megawatt is the capacity of a medium gas turbine that would fit on a rail car.
A typical utility generating plant is in the 500-1,000MW range and will run at about 95% over the course of the year.
I live less than three miles from a 2 gigawatt nuke plant. For the most part, you would never know it's there.
Inga gets her information from Rachel Pravda Maddow.
Has anyone asked Mann about the child miners, or the destruction the habitat from cobalt mining in Africa?
It's not just Africa, the Swedish govt is licensing companies to take private land for cobalt exploration and mining. These companies level forests and contaminate lakes.
Green energy is not "free" and it's not "green"
I know that was six months ago but still:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/parry-sound-wildfire-wind-farm-1.4930354
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