From "Step Away From the Orb" by Maureen Dowd (NYT).
"The Orb" refers to this:
That is our President, Donald J. Trump, and much of the column is, as you might expect, about him. I chose to highlight the "Even Hillary Clinton" part. There's also an "Even Barack Obama" part:
Even Barack Obama, who had no love lost for the Saudis, refused for eight years to release a classified document from 2002 detailing contacts between Saudi officials and some of the 9/11 hijackers, including checks from Saudi royals to operatives in contact with the hijackers and a connection between a Bandar employee and a Qaeda militant. (Bandar’s wife, Princess Haifa, wrote charitable checks that ended up in the hands of two hijackers.)And there's a set of matching photos of Trump, Obama, and George W. Bush bowing their head to receive an idiotic medallion from a Saudi King. Dowd begins with a story about the time "a Saudi muck-a-muck" slid a velvet box of "expensive jewelry" across the table to her and, after she refused, attempted to hand it to her under the table.
ADDED: "During the first gulf war..." — odd not to capitalize "gulf." It's not as though "gulf" is a type of war (as in "trade war" or "war of nerves"). It's the Persian Gulf. If "Persian" were attached — and why isn't it? — the need for capitalization would be obvious. Elsewhere in the NYT archive I'm seeing either "Gulf War" or "Gulf war." I'll give this my "Althouse the pedant" tag, but I'm not just nit-picking. I'm noticing what is downplayed and wondering why.
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93 comments:
Women in Saudi Arabia by law only whine to their husbands.
The role of Saudi Arabia in keeping the mideast under control is being downplayed. That would be the reason nobody complains about weird Saudi customs. Cost and benefit.
Concessions to factions are made to prevent violence from breaking out, the value of the concession being proportional to the ability to cause trouble. That's the usual political structure in shithole countries.
A lot of western customs have to be adopted at once to get out of that trap. This is why nation building won't work.
Backsliding into shithole country status is always possible too, like what the Dems are working on. Drop a few western customs and go for concessions.
I really get tired of this "we need to be nanny/policeman" to the whole world. The Saudi's have a lot of Oil, which makes the world go round.They also have tons of money.
Not being a Muslim, I wouldn't like to live there. But different strokes...and isn't diversity great?
We're told that Obama "really didn't like the Saudi's BUT" - Really? What's that based on?
bowing their head to receive an idiotic medallion from a Saudi King
I got a Busch and Lomb science medallion in high school but it came in a plastic box.
But what gifts did Maureen Dowd accept? How common is this practice?
I can’t read the article given its paywall. But, aren’t women driving there now? Because of MBS influence?
paywall: open the link in a private-browsing window. They use cookies to cut you out. Private looks to them like you've never been there before.
Trump, the chump and Jared the jejune, gotta give it to Dowd, very apt. As Dowd pointed out, we are awash in oil, we don’t need their oil. It’s time the US stopped bowing to Saudi Kings. Dowd said Khashoggi was dismembered while alive. We excuse this because of money, arms sales?
Read the article in “Private” setting.
“I can’t read the article given its paywall. But, aren’t women driving there now? Because of MBS influence?”
So? He’s jailing women for speaking out at the same time.
All the trouble women are having everywhere come from a lack of self-awareness. It's just how men deal with it that differs.
“Now you say it's time stop bowing. Where were you from 2008-16 when King Barack of Hyde Park was touring the world in a permanent hunched state?”
You didn’t like Obama bowing? Take a look at Dowd’s article. She pictures Bush, Trump and Obama bowing. Guess who bowed the lowest?
“All the trouble women are having everywhere come from a lack of self-awareness.”
Oh. Ok.
If Mohammad had had and encouraged free-spirited daughters, feminism would be running wild in Islam today, demanding this and that.
The world's societies are organized by what they do about women nagging.
Western societies are organized by bemusement.
Oop said: "It’s time the US stopped bowing to Saudi Kings"
Hump responded: “Now you say it's time stop bowing. Where were you from 2008-16 when King Barack of Hyde Park was touring the world in a permanent hunched state?”
Oop further responded: "You didn’t like Obama bowing? Take a look at Dowd’s article. She pictures Bush, Trump and Obama bowing. Guess who bowed the lowest?"
You're confusing form with volume. Not surprising.
Islam needs to adopt bemusement. A standoffishness dealing with crazy people.
“You're confusing form with volume. Not surprising.”
Good grief. Who speaks louder in deference regarding Saudi Kings and despots? Trump again just said how the “Crown Prince was a strong person who loves his country.” Which dictator’s ass hasn’t Trump crawled up yet? Your whataboutism doesn’t cut it.
Trump is negotiating. His ego turns on and off depending on the situation.
The original ad hominem argument was one that flattered your opponent.
Contra hominem took over the term and arguments stopped working.
There a new sheriff in Saudi Arabia and the new powers seem to be allied more closely with our interests while at the same time, not working against our interests like the previous crew. The Globalists want the old status quo. Munitions are big business.
See who is prominent in that "Orb" picture? Melania. And she's not wearing a head covering or bending a knee--like the Democrat Bozos.
A RANDOM RANT:
Let me get this straight. Saudi Arabia sponsored the 9/11 hijackers, stones rape victims to death for being unchaste, hangs people for being gay…and NOW you’re upset with them?
What changed?
Oh….
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/310962/
Poor Maureen Dowd has never gotten over being dumped by Michael Douglas. Did she know about his sex addiction?
Obama supported the Saudis (and Putin) by saying “We can’t drill our way to energy independence.” Also by not permitting pipelines. I guess 911 was nothing compared to a wapo oped scribbler.
This whole Khashoggi thing is just filler until the “caravan” of Central Americans arrives at the US border—right before the midterm elections. More crying babies at the border! Maybe more babies in cages!
Hey! Maureen! It’s not about the oil. It’s about toppling the Mullahs in Iran! Yeah, and dumping Obama’s greatest forign policy fiasco—the tawdry, delusional, dangerous, despicable Iran deal.
Oop retorted: "Good grief. Who speaks louder in deference regarding Saudi Kings and despots? Trump again just said how the “Crown Prince was a strong person who loves his country.” Which dictator’s ass hasn’t Trump crawled up yet?"
"We came, we saw, he died." Remember that? Who said that? Oh yeah, Hillary (not-your-president) Clinton said that after Gaddafi, Qaddafi, Kadaffi (pick one) was deposed. That worked out real well, didn't it?
Or remember when the Shah was given the boot? Another big win for the western world, right? The mullahs are on your side Oop.
Commie-pinko libs are so short-sighted. Trump continues to play the long game while the libs can't think beyond lunch time.
The battle between the House of Saud and the Turks reminds me of “Lawrence of Arabia”
And as was true then and is true now it all ends with the Arabs fighting over power and the spoils.
The end games beginith. The next question that must be answered is whether Bill and Hillary get to keep their Secret Service protection while doing time at NSGB.
T.E. Lawrence: We do not work this thing for Feisal.
Auda abu Tayi: No? For the English, then?
T.E. Lawrence: For the Arabs.
Auda abu Tayi: The Arabs? The Howitat, Ajili, Rala, Beni Saha; these I know, I have even heard of the Harif, but the Arabs? What tribe is that?
Bandar’s wife, Princess Haifa, wrote charitable checks that ended up in the hands of two hijackers.
Well, the Saudi women may not be allowed to drive, but they sure can write checks!!!
Maybe they are those stay at home fake feminist women that Kystern Sinema is ranting about. Leeching off of their husbands and writing checks to 911 hijackers?
Nice to see Melania's hair.
Althouse's Brewers fandom must have been a pose since she obviously isn't hungover.
Inga said: Who speaks louder in deference regarding Saudi Kings and despots? Trump again just said how the “Crown Prince was a strong person who loves his country.” Which dictator’s ass hasn’t Trump crawled up yet? Your whataboutism doesn’t cut it.
Which just illustrates that most women do not have the ability to understand negotiations and the art of making deals.
Don't go used car shopping by yourself, dear.....take a man or a woman who does know how to "make a deal"
Obama literally cowtowed to the Saudi king.
And not Joe Biden literally.
Inga got the check:
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/10/dnc_top_sekret_plan_for_midterms.html
Say what you will, but the Prince has liberalized the country more in the last 2 years than the last 200. Movie theaters, fashion shows, concerts from pop artists, increased participation in international sports, and women can now drive. Bold steps for that part of the world.
Which is why he will have to retrench to hold the support of the allegiance council, and the jihadis have a martyr.
The peculiarities of foreign cultures should not be our concern.
So when Logan, was raped in tahrir square, a detail David Kirkpatrick left out of the paen he wrote to the brotherhood scam
So fracking is good because it promises to reduce our dependency on Saudi oil, right?
"Dowd begins with a story about the time "a Saudi muck-a-muck" slid a velvet box of "expensive jewelry" across the table to her and, after she refused, attempted to hand it to her under the table."
Man, women have it hard.
American Feminists ignore the plight of women in other countries, because it would force them to acknowledge just how good they actually have it in the United States, and stop the whining and bitching.
"Dowd begins with a story about the time "a Saudi muck-a-muck" slid a velvet box of "expensive jewelry" across the table to her and, after she refused, attempted to hand it to her under the table."
Cheap jewelry is more her style.
You didn’t like Obama bowing? Take a look at Dowd’s article. She pictures Bush, Trump and Obama bowing. Guess who bowed the lowest?
This is a comparison of them bending down so that the medal can be put on them. If you watch the video instead of looking at just the photo, you can see that Trump bent his knees to shorten himself first and then bent his head slightly so that the king could put the medal on him.
It's the other bowing (upon meeting the king) that previous presidents did and that Trump doesn't do.
Dowd begins with a story about the time "a Saudi muck-a-muck" slid a velvet box of "expensive jewelry" across the table to her and, after she refused, attempted to hand it to her under the table.
When the Democrats were bitching about Gen. Kelly talking to Russians, they were tripping over themselves trying to see the Russian Ambassador to get hooked up with Russian Oligarchs. Dozens of Democrats. Word had spread that the least you get out of it was a top-of-the-line Rolex watch.
And bandars daughter is being proposed as the Saudi ambassador.
Why do we only hear about Khashoggi and not about Meng Hongwei?
30 senators but that was different, now Prince talal has lost 58% in the last four years, reason for revenge?
I scrolled down the comments and did not see one mention of the present GOP Senate candidate in Arizona who refused to wear an abaya off the base and, when ordered to do so, sued Rumsfeld and won. That was the end of US service women being required to dress as Saudi women.
Her name is Martha McSally and she told me Rumsfeld donated the maximum to her campaign.
Mary Beth asks: Why do we only hear about Khashoggi and not about Meng Hongwei?
I've been wondering the same thing. Surely the fate of the head of Interpol is more important than a quasi journalist.
Or the fate of a quasi journalist.
The most frightening thing I have heard about Saudi Arabia of late is allowing women to drive. A fine people, but they drive like utter maniacs. Putting women behind the wheel on those sandy roads will be a real terror.
Mary Beth said...
"Why do we only hear about Khashoggi and not about Meng Hongwei?"
Change the word "hear" to "care" and it answers itself. Khashoggi matters (at the level he functioned on) because he was hooked up with us, America - The Post - and nothing more. I've been waiting 12 years now, for my nation to redevelop some ethical backbone, but it still ain't there - yet.
I'd even bet you good money Maureen really kept those jewels. She definitely got more elsewhere.
Oso... sandy roads or asphalt... they are a terror! Menfolk same same.
Inga: sorry to break it to you but we still "need" Saudi oil, even with the success of US fracking. Not US specifically, but the world economy in which we have fingers in every pie: The USA, grabbing the world by the pussy since 1776. That said, rhhardin has a good point: the Saudi's are too big to topple. Samey same in Iran, but they are weak enough so we are angling for destabilization and counter-revolution.
Blogger Michael K said...
I scrolled down the comments and did not see one mention of the present GOP Senate candidate in Arizona who refused to wear an abaya off the base and, when ordered to do so, sued Rumsfeld and won. That was the end of US service women being required to dress as Saudi women.
Her name is Martha McSally and she told me Rumsfeld donated the maximum to her campaign.
You gotta salute that.
You read his guardian piece, khashoggi a month after 9/11 made clear he was glad it happened like his boss Prince talal has stated.
So fracking is good because it promises to reduce our dependency on Saudi oil, right?
Yes, we now buy $40 Billion less (down 66%) per year of Saudi Arabian oil than when Hillary was Secretary of State.
I remember when Wyche Fowler, Clinton's then-Saudi ambassador, was regaling a crowd of Democrat operatives at Manuel's Tavern, a Democrat watering hole down the street from the Jimmy Carter Center. I don't remember if Carter was there that night, but Carter, Clinton, Fowler and Andrew Young were all pandering to the Saudis grotesquely back then. Young has used his credentials as a civil rights leader to run cover for Saudi human rights abuses for decades, and he and his very high profile law firm have profited handsomely from his willingness to literally whitewash Saudi evil through use of his status as a civil rights leader. He abets slavery, repression and torture of women in exchange for fat Saudi speaking fees.
That night, Wyche Fowler kept making jokes about how great it was to live in a country where women were not allowed to drive. The Democrat lobbyists and elected officials -- the party elite -- howled with laughter. The leftist members of the Atlanta Journal Constitution editorial board were there snickering along as well. I asked the state head of the NOW how she felt about the jokes and response. She looked at me and said something to the effect of it not being anything to make waves about because Fowler was on our team.
Go team enslavement of women! Everything I needed to know about Democrats I learned by being a Democrat in Atlanta.
"Saudi Arabia sponsored the 9/11 hijackers"
They were FROM Saudi Arabia. They were NOT sponsored by the Saudi government.
It probably escaped your notice but the Saudi's supported us in the Iraq war and the 1991 Kuwait/Iraq dust-up. They oppose Iran and want to keep their Persian Gulf oil flowing to the West.
But who cares about that? After all, some soccer mom might be upset at all the "sexism".
,
The Saudi's involved in 911, were either illegal aliens or had gotten their visa under false prentenses.
IOW, 911 happened because the Democrats want defacto Open borders.
Well it's a little more problematic they received monies from princes and princess, trained in camps funded by other figures their lodgings were arranged by officials connected to the defense and foreign ministries.
Blogger rcocean said...
"Saudi Arabia sponsored the 9/11 hijackers"
They were FROM Saudi Arabia.
I have read that much of this is in doubt. Mohammed Atta was Egyptian. Some of the others were using false passports.
I understand that DNA collected at the WTC did not match relatives on the supposed hijackers.
That part of the world routinely produces leaders like Saddam, Assad, Qaddafi, the Ayatollah, and now this Saudi Prince. I think all those besotted madmen might have more to do with the people who live in the Mideast than with the foreign policy of various American leaders.......The Saudis don't seem to despise us as much as the others so I'd be inclined to let them be. Still, this Saudi Prince looks worse than the others --and it's a low bar. The Saudi royal family would be well advised to lose him. There's no way you can defend him, but, taking the long view, it's important to note that he's not so bad as, say, Saddam. I don't think the people of Saudi Arabia will regard us as liberators if we overthrow the Saudi royals.
@rhhardin:
The role of Saudi Arabia in keeping the mideast under control is being downplayed. That would be the reason nobody complains about weird Saudi customs. Cost and benefit.
Rather than "keeping the mideast under control," Saudi Arabian foreign policy has sown chaos and destruction in places like Syria and Yemen. Its attempt to diplomatically isolate Qatar was a failure. Most of the praise for MBS came from things he said that he was going to do rather than what he actually did. While there have been modest liberalization, Saudi Arabia has also backslide on either issues, such as its heavy handed approach to regime critics and dissidents. This atmosphere has led to massive capital flight from the country despite MBS' claim of wanting to make the Kingdom more open to foreign business. The two adjectives that probably best describe MBS' reign are impetuousness and incompetence. It was wrong of Obama to try to placate the Saudis with weapon sales and supporting the Yemen War. And it is wrong for Trump to double down on those policies.
There is some of that:
http://narcisoscorner.blogspot.com/?m=1
However they've been fighting In Yemen off and on, since the beatles were in hamburg
Dowd tells a good story. It's probably based on a story she heard about Ivanka. It will add to her legend. I like the way the Saudi makes a second under the table attempt. He certainly showed more savoir faire than Harvey Weinstein.
Jamal Khashoggi was retroactively aborted.
Abortion--safe, legal, and rare, and fully supported by the Democrat Party.
Why do you guys hate the USA? Because it's not a tyrannical theocracy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Saudi_role_in_September_11_attacks
Saudi Arabia pre-2016 =/= Saudi Arabia post-2016
@Darrell:
Saudi Arabia pre-2016 =/= Saudi Arabia post-2016
In what ways?
People who were supporting terrorism and working against our interests (and the Saudi's) were stripped of their money and put under house arrest. A coup was stopped. Since then significant changes have occurred. But you know that, don't you?
Don't be an ass. SA is not going to become England overnight. Assholes made the same mistake with the Shah of Iran. He moved his country forward by 600 years--but that wasn't good enough for the assholes.
Yes look at the list of detained, bin Mahfouz ( daughter is featured in vogue) alamoudi, bin laden, bin talal, what do they have in common?
There are some disturbing parallels however pahlavi was taken out by an alliance between the mullah (imams) and the merchants (most of those figures mentioned above. Land reform list him the latter.
Blogger Howard said...
Why do you guys hate the USA? Because it's not a tyrannical theocracy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Saudi_role_in_September_11_attacks
Howard, why not research the question of whether this Saudi passports were forged?
Atta was Egyptian. Some of the others did not match DNA with the detectable evidence.
Most were Saudis but far from all.
Well many not all of these folks had been to Bosnia Chechnya, all areas of interest to the regime, so quite possibly they were given a pass with regards to entry authorization
What have me a little sense of de javu was there was another waleed al shehri 17 years supposedly among the crew in Ankara, I say supposedly because his name has not been listed among the detained.
@Darrell:
People who were supporting terrorism and working against our interests (and the Saudi's) were stripped of their money and put under house arrest. A coup was stopped. Since then significant changes have occurred. But you know that, don't you?
No, I actually do not know that. The Saudi purges were conducted under an "anti-corruption" and were much more about MBS consolidating his position than reforming a system. Also, I do not believe there have been "significant changes." There have been very modest opening ups in some areas but in other areas the regime has become more authoritarian.
Don't be an ass. SA is not going to become England overnight. Assholes made the same mistake with the Shah of Iran. He moved his country forward by 600 years--but that wasn't good enough for the assholes.
Saudi Arabia will likely never "become England." Not overnight and not in a hundred years. News stories about the imminent modernization and reform of Saudi Arabia have been a feature for 40 years. And it is interesting to bring up the Shah. One of the problems, of course, was that by being such a close client of western powers, the Shah did not have a great deal of legitimacy within the country and was widely viewed as a western puppet. That doesn't mean that what came after is better, but it should still inform the conversation. And it is perfectly logical
The third time the charm:
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/10/in_iran_retirees_join_truckers_shopkeepers_teachers_on_strike_agains_the_mullahs.html?fbclid=IwAR3_AKmOerGBlDhrdT8ewqtofznOV-mIrBKmGB3kWXe8O9xeHyWrCbjHW2U#.W8zr2Tt0cAw.facebook
Geographically they were close to Russia, hence 1905 caused an echo (belys Petersburg) they had long standing ties with the UK from their confrontation in the 1850s,
Narciso observes: The third time the charm:
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/10/in_iran_retirees_join_truckers_shopkeepers_teachers_on_strike_agains_the_mullahs.html?fbclid=IwAR3_AKmOerGBlDhrdT8ewqtofznOV-mIrBKmGB3kWXe8O9xeHyWrCbjHW2U#.W8zr2Tt0cAw.facebook
No doubt J Farmer will be along to refute this article.
OTOH, how can 'retirees' go on strike?
@mockturtle:
No doubt J Farmer will be along to refute this article.
Do me a favor. Name a single argument I have ever made that you believe this article contradicts.
So far it seems to be primarily a merchant matter, Rouhanis has no understanding of how to run an economy, this brushfire doesn't seem to be going away.
Blogger Howard said...
Inga: sorry to break it to you but we still "need" Saudi oil, even with the success of US fracking. Not US specifically, but the world economy in which we have fingers in every pie:
The US has to keep the EU and China supplied with Saudi oil or they will not be our friends. We feel like the king being told by the EU in the castle parapets that they will taunt us a second time.
10/22/18, 12:48 AM Delete
"During the first gulf war..." — odd not to capitalize "gulf."
Publishers were once able to afford editors. Now such errors are common, even in less ephemeral publications such as books.
As for Saudi Arabia, it's not as if everyone doesn't realize this place is the closest thing to a medieval monarchy to be found in the contemporary world. Why would anyone be surprised that its leaders act medieval?
Assuming "regime change" is a really, really bad idea (because what would replace it likely would be far worse), practical realpolitik consists of balancing Sunni interests against Shia. The high point in applying this was the Iran-Iraq war: just get 'em to commit atrocities on each other and they'll leave the rest of the world alone.
As long as pedantry is on the table, what about "Obama, who had no love lost for the Saudis"?
"No love lost" is the state of the relationship (unfriendly); it's not a feeling one has about someone. Dowd's editor should have corrected it to say Obama "had no love" for the Saudis.
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