Althouse: What did Urban Meyer know and when did he know it?

August 3, 2018

What did Urban Meyer know and when did he know it?

74 comments:

David Begley said...: Does this guy always fidget behind the podium?

More interesting to me is the video by Veritas about his abuse of FL players. Brutal.; 8/3/18, 5:56 AM
FIDO said...: This is an obvious conspiracy set up by the Thugs Of Michigan who are tired of losing to Urban Myers brilliance.

But now it is not just a crime for a man to have a less than positive encounter with a woman.

No, if any MAN knows domestic violence occurs (but certainly not a woman), the Academy will require you be in loco parentis for GROWN WOMEN.

How is Urban Myer responsible for this, but the woman and her friends...are not?

Feminism has made women insane and pathetic.; 8/3/18, 6:01 AM
rhhardin said...: Some woman somewhere is unhappy. Find the maximum ratings blame placement.; 8/3/18, 6:01 AM
rhhardin said...: I lost track of OSU coaches after Woody Hayes, and I live here.

It takes an absurd interest in sports to even think this guy is ratings bait.; 8/3/18, 6:04 AM
traditionalguy said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/3/18, 6:05 AM
traditionalguy said...: Motivation by portraying ones self as a committed idealist who expects similar virtuous sacrifice from young men is a hard act to sustain. Not while a Coaching Staff are paid multi millions and the young men are unpaid. More disclosure of truth that hurts. And this one was done by an investigative Conspiracy Theorist willing to report truth.; 8/3/18, 6:07 AM
Oso Negro said...: I watched a bit of the Courtney Smith interview. I found myself unable to generate any sympathy for her. The pathology of men is legislated against, the pathology of women is celebrated in story and song. And can help a girl land a gig at the New York Times.; 8/3/18, 6:07 AM
tim maguire said...: Just yesterday, The Volokh Conspiracy wrote about a case in New Jersey where a person was held to have a duty to report when a co-worker was in a criminal relationship, even though the crime had nothing to do with work and nothing to do with the relationship with the co-worker (and the co-worker didn't technically know, it was one of those "should have known" situations). So there you go.

What's weird here is that the alleged crime had already been reported and adjudicated. So what was Meyers supposed to report and who to?; 8/3/18, 6:15 AM
David Begley said...: FIDO

This case takes the legal rule of respondent superior to a new level. What if this assistant coach had a drinking problem, the head coach sort of knew about it and then the assistant kills someone in a drunk driving incident?; 8/3/18, 6:18 AM
Humperdink said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 8/3/18, 6:20 AM
Humperdink said...: What we need here is a Mueller type investigation to review the entire OSU operation. I am not talking just football or sports. I am talking the whole enchilada, from the regents to the president, down to the students. There is a crime there somewhere. We need subpoenas, wiretaps, whatever it takes to root it out. Lavish spending habits probably involved. Obstruction of justice. Tax evasion. Just looking for the truth here *cough*.

Sign me an unbiased observer.
Humperdink PSU '73.; 8/3/18, 6:23 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Just yesterday, The Volokh Conspiracy wrote about a case in New Jersey where a person was held to have a duty to report when a co-worker was in a criminal relationship, even though the crime had nothing to do with work and nothing to do with the relationship with the co-worker (and the co-worker didn't technically know, it was one of those "should have known" situations). So there you go. What's weird here is that the alleged crime had already been reported and adjudicated. So what was Meyers supposed to report and who to?"

But they can avoid all those questions by focusing on whether he lied (i.e., was less than fully straightforward). The commentators in the video are going off on the "it's the coverup" theme (which is why I used the Nixonesque post title).; 8/3/18, 6:23 AM
rehajm said...: I went to a Division III school.; 8/3/18, 6:24 AM
DKWalser said...: Can we stop with applying today's rules retroactively? I was taught when I learned that someone may have been involved with sexual harassment I was to immediately turn the matter over to HR. I was NOT supposed to investigate the question myself. That's what Myers (claims he) did here. When HR's investigation of the original claim came back empty, the guy got to keep his job. When the subsequent claim initially came back empty, he also got to keep his job. When HR found something, he lost his job.

Now, under today's rules, Meyers is expected to be more proactive. But those rules weren't in place back in 2009 or 2015!; 8/3/18, 6:26 AM
Tom said...: The need to touch his nose/upper lip when discussing the 2009 incident suggests deception from the beginning. It may or may not be a criminal level of suggestions.

BUT, Project Veritas has discovered some horrific stories about Urban Meyer at U of Florida.; 8/3/18, 6:26 AM
William said...: I got up early. I can't tell if it's virtuous early rising or insomnia. Anyway, who knew that people get up early and fret about Ohio State coaches.........I think it was insomnia. I'm going back to bed. Nothing that I have learned about this coach will trouble my sleep. I just hope Demi finds some way to get over her drug problems and that she and Justin can get back together.; 8/3/18, 6:28 AM
FIDO said...: He will sue them into next year and walk away with a huge packet of money.

But let's let the DOE follow up on this for inappropriate sexual relations between professors and students...and who KNEW about these things!

All should be suspended. Anyone who has an inkling.

How many classes would have to be cancelled?

Professor Althouse, how many inappropriate relationships did YOU know about? Not to prosecute, but to inform what kind of snake pit we would find if anyone investigated the Academy like they do everyone else.; 8/3/18, 6:35 AM
rhhardin said...: Can we stop with applying today's rules retroactively?

Applying them at all is giving in to the hysterical mob, which mob is the audience that the news is produced to attract. They sell the mob to advertisers.

Don't take ideas from women, is a good rule for the beginner, as a result.

It didn't matter much when the mob was impossible, and the back fence was the only way female idiocy could spread. It never got far, and that's just how women are took care of it.; 8/3/18, 6:37 AM
Ralph L said...: $38 million!

The wife must have thought her husband had a chance at a bigger slick of that monster pie, or she's pathetic.; 8/3/18, 6:38 AM
rhhardin said...: Legislator says "that's just how women are."

He'd be gone in a day. And, as usual in these cases, he'd be right.; 8/3/18, 6:39 AM
FIDO said...: This just affirms the wisdom of men not listening to the problems of women. You can be sued and indicted.; 8/3/18, 6:45 AM
MadisonMan said...: Let us all now rush to judgement.; 8/3/18, 7:15 AM
Ralph L said...: I read he had large numbers of FSU? players in the criminal justice system. Allegations must have seemed like small potatoes.; 8/3/18, 7:23 AM
Sebastian said...: "if any MAN knows domestic violence occurs (but certainly not a woman), the Academy will require you be in loco parentis for GROWN WOMEN."

But, but . . . equality.; 8/3/18, 7:25 AM
Jake said...: Do you think Courtney Smith ever laid hands on her ex husband? If I understand the 2009 incident, Zack cane home drunk with another woman. He asked his then pregnant wife if the other woman could sleep over. Wife says no and drives the other woman home. When wife gets home husband is asleep in bed. Wife starts fight because she wants husband to sleep on couch. She says at some point he picked her up by her shirt and pinned her against a wall. Are there more details? Was she physical with him first? Was he responding to that physicality? He sounds like a shit but I’m not sure she’s a saint either. That said, fuck tOSU and Urban Meyer and people that batter women.; 8/3/18, 7:40 AM
Curious George said...: I think some are confusing Meyer's legal obligation (and risk) to employment obligation (and risk). I think regarding the former he probably has little. But he clearly knew and let it continue. He should be fired. He's a creep and Ohio StTate can do better. And I'm a Buckeye fan.; 8/3/18, 8:02 AM
mezzrow said...: Wowsers - check out the Veritas video...

O'Keefe has done it again. Devastating. I knew there was something about that guy, and note that Kevin Wilson had no problem getting a job at OSU after similar allegations led to his dismissal at Indiana.; 8/3/18, 8:04 AM
Sydney said...: I know a lot of OSU mega-fans who are also SJW-types. They must be having massive migraines from the cognitive dissonance right about now.; 8/3/18, 8:08 AM
T J Sawyer said...: Who names their kid Urban?; 8/3/18, 8:20 AM
Virgil Hilts said...: Agree with David Begley and others. The Veritas stuff is gruesome and for me the big story. I do think football is dying; it was not designed to be played the way it is now by players this big and fast; each September I'm shocked at how disgustingly violent it has become. Laquon Treadwell's breaking his leg entering the end zone in the Ole Miss - Auburn game a few years ago almost ended football-watching for me.; 8/3/18, 8:20 AM
narayanan said...: please stop confusing me -

- it's not "respondent superior"
- but respondeAt superior; 8/3/18, 8:35 AM
narayanan said...: Folkd - admit it - college football is slavery plantation culture writ large; 8/3/18, 8:38 AM
WK said...: Urban Meyer is going to get caught on a Title IX violation. As a supervisor/coach/manager he has a duty to report any allegations of violations of OSUs Title IX policy. Even third party allegations against an OSU staff member. The text messages “suggest” his wife may have informed him. As a university employee, she may have had a duty to report as well.

Domestic violence falls under the sexual assault category. From the OSU website. https://hr.osu.edu/wp-content/uploads/policy115.pdf

In addition to the requirement of reporting incidents of sexual assault, the following members of the university community have an additional obligation to report all other incidents of sexual misconduct, when they receive a disclosure of sexual misconduct or become aware of information that would lead a reasonable person to believe that sexual misconduct may have occurred involving anyone covered under this policy. These individuals must report the incident within five work days of becoming aware of such information:
1. Any human resource professional (HRP);
2. Anyone who supervises faculty, staff, students, or volunteers;

Conduct that would meet the definition of a felony or misdemeanor crime of violence committed by the complainant’s current or former spouse or intimate partner, a person with whom the complainant shares a child in common, a person who is or has cohabitated with the complainant as a spouse or intimate partner, or individual similarly situated to a spouse under domestic or family violence law, or anyone else protected under the domestic or family violence law of the jurisdiction in which the offense occurred. An individual need not be charged with or convicted of a criminal offense to be found responsible for domestic violence pursuant to this policy; 8/3/18, 9:05 AM
rhhardin said...: Both violence AND zingers are prohibited.

Adolf Guggenbuhl-Craig "The Blessings of Violence" _From the Wrong Side_ p.67, obsolete.; 8/3/18, 9:11 AM
David Begley said...: Speculation here in the Cornhusker state that if Urban gets axed then OSU would hire alum and former Corn head coach Bo Pellini. Bo is now at Youngstown State. Nebraska is still paying him his full salary. The General Counsel at UNL never figured out a mitigation of damages clause.

Even OSU can't pay him $38m and then get a new coach.; 8/3/18, 9:11 AM
rhhardin said...: The law ought to include more paradoxes.; 8/3/18, 9:12 AM
rhhardin said...: Put the women on the football team and the football players in HR.; 8/3/18, 9:14 AM
etbass said...: "He's a creep and Ohio StTate can do better."

Well don't waste your time coming after Nick Saban. He just signed a new 8 year contract worth $74M and said he will be at Bama for the restofhiscareer. Not sure but he might be the highest paid public employee in the country.; 8/3/18, 9:15 AM
hombre said...: Lying to the mediaswine is a suspending offense? The mediaswine lie to everybody.

What a country!; 8/3/18, 9:15 AM
rhhardin said...: Always tell the truth, but put it in a zinger.; 8/3/18, 9:17 AM
rhhardin said...: When Veep made a retard joke, she had to apologize to some retard from the mental disabilities council.

Nobody sees the over-the-top humor in all this real life news when it's perfectly apparent to any Hollywood scriptwriter.

HR and title 9 from outer space are comedy characters.; 8/3/18, 9:21 AM
rhhardin said...: The legal mind: how can we make this pile of shit work.; 8/3/18, 9:23 AM
traditionalguy said...: FTR: Urban is the name used by 7 Roman Catholic Popes.The first one is a Saint prayed to in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Meyer has a lot expected from him.; 8/3/18, 9:23 AM
Birches said...: What's most interesting to me is that people are trying to tie Meyer to Jim Jordan. Hmmmm.; 8/3/18, 9:24 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Professor Althouse, how many inappropriate relationships did YOU know about? Not to prosecute, but to inform what kind of snake pit we would find if anyone investigated the Academy like they do everyone else."

I heard rumors about perhaps 3 male professors, but I don't think that I really knew anything. In any event, what do you mean by inappropriate? In the old days, I don't think there was any particular rule that was supposed to be enforced. I remember getting schooled on some new rule that required the reporting of student-teacher relationships. They were not forbidden. There was just a reporting requirement.

You know the university was full of professors who were married to their former students, and these people didn't want their marriages impugned (and they weren't).; 8/3/18, 9:30 AM
rhhardin said...: Kenneth Burke said one of the appeals of teaching what that teaching was like impregnating.; 8/3/18, 9:41 AM
rhhardin said...: Stuff that used to work before tech gave us mobs.; 8/3/18, 9:42 AM
Known Unknown said...: "Wowsers - check out the Veritas video..."

Four disgruntled players after coaching over 350 at Florida? That's less than 1%.; 8/3/18, 9:42 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "Who names their kid Urban?"

Fans of Urban Shocker?; 8/3/18, 9:45 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "In the old days, I don't think there was any particular rule that was supposed to be enforced. "

There is the federal law on sexual harassment, but I'd need to know a lot of details to know what crossed the line there, and I'd need to study the case law applying the federal law, which I've never done in any detail. The university in later years tried to follow federal law by adopting rules and making us go to sessions explaining the rules, but as I said, we were told of a rule about reporting relationships, which clearly said you could do it if you did it the right way.

Obviously, asking for sex in return for some for some favor would be sexual harassment, but I never even heard a rumor that anyone did that.; 8/3/18, 9:50 AM
rhhardin said...: asking for sex in return for some for some favor would be sexual harassment

It's just an offer. Take the deal or not.; 8/3/18, 9:53 AM
Chuck said...: The question that I keep asking is why didn't Courtney Smith go to the press two years ago, or six years ago?

The answer is clear, at least to me. Courtney Smith did not want her ex-husband to lose his $340,000/yr. job. One which her support payments were based. Courtney Smith aided and abetted the matter of keeping it all relatively quiet, at least insofar as it would get Zach Smith fired. She stipulated to the sealing of the court records.

And now, the moment that Zach's OSU paycheck of about $20,000 per month is gone, she goes public as a newly-minted professional victim. I have zero doubt that her ex-husband was a frightening, threatening asshole and that she did the right thing by calling police, getting a PPO, and ultimately getting a divorce. I am not victim-blaming. I am just making the plain observation that if the critical question as to when Zach Smith should have been fired, I think part of the answer is that our victim in this case was very much interested in Zach NOT being fired.

As for those bullshit recordings of Florida players, every college coach and every strength and conditioning coach in the country is going to laugh at the football-illiterates who think that coaches would deliberately hurt their own players in the weight room, or that an injury in the weight room actually could be the result of any deliberate directions of the head football coach.; 8/3/18, 9:54 AM
Chuck said...: Althouse at least one of your commenters got it right in that it may be Title IX reporting requirements that could hurt Meyer the most.

The second thing is that I have reviewed the .pdf of Urban Meyer's 2012 contract and the three or four amendments thereto, and Urban might be in breach of that contract (if OSU wanted to enforce it that way) as to reporting improprieties among his staff (and of course players are included as well).

The third thing is a Clery Act (reporting) violation; now there it gets a bit more tenuous insofar as Courtney Smith the victim is not an OSU student or staff member, and the offending occurrences were off campus.

This whole thing is going to turn on "reporting." It is so far LESS serious than the matter with Jim Tressel; because what nailed Tressel was lying to investigators in a sworn statement. (To be sure, the subject of Tressel's lying was much more trivial; players trading game-worn memorabilia for tattoos.) Urban may not have to do any lying, and his failure to report the alleged domestic violence seems a bit beside the point when Courtney Smith had already reported the matters to police who were investigating and intervening.; 8/3/18, 10:02 AM
Known Unknown said...: Chuck is correct. There are specifics in this story that lead me to believe that Urban may be reinstated.

The amendments that he signed on to were added in April of this year.

It would take a broad interpretation of Title IX to affect Meyer.; 8/3/18, 10:12 AM
WK said...: The link I posted above is to an OSU policy based on Title IX requirements. So - I guess it would be more of a university policy violation than Title IX. Meyers wife is also a university employee in an instructor/faculty role - not sure what her duty to report in this situation might be if she had direct knowledge.; 8/3/18, 10:23 AM
Francisco D said...: I don't have any thoughts about Urban Meyer as a football coach because I do not follow college football much. He seems to be very successful. That may be his greatest offense.

Liberal sportswriters have the long knives out for him. Getting his scalp would be a great coup. (OK. Enough Native American references). The sportswriters think they know more about the game than coaches and athletic directors/general managers. I suspect many of them were marginal athletes in HS and resent their inability to succeed in that area. IOW, it's all about inflating their egos and "journalist" chops.

As far as I can tell, Meyer's big mistake was trying to counsel Zach Smith and his wife instead of requiring them to go to marital counseling. The domestic violence issues would have surfaced earlier and the proper authorities may have gotten involved. Meyer's intentions were probably good, but his instincts were flawed. He did not take domestic violence seriously enough.

When I was practicing, I saw several patients who indicated that their spouse/partner had slapped or pushed them. My initial response was to warn them that things were likely to escalate and they need to be prepared to leave and/or call the authorities. Any hint of physical violence in a relationship needs to be taken seriously.; 8/3/18, 10:47 AM
Anthony said...: Except for the BS-edness of it all, ESPN long ago turned into MS-ESPN with (slightly) better video that I don't take it or their incessant PC blathering at all seriously. If I can get many college football games to watch on something other than MS-ESPN Ill dump them in a second.; 8/3/18, 10:53 AM
FIDO said...: I heard rumors about perhaps 3 male professors, but I don't think that I really knew anything. In any event, what do you mean by inappropriate? In the old days, I don't think there was any particular rule that was supposed to be enforced. I remember getting schooled on some new rule that required the reporting of student-teacher relationships. They were not forbidden. There was just a reporting requirement.

You know the university was full of professors who were married to their former students, and these people didn't want their marriages impugned (and they weren't)

Would such marriages pass muster these days? I sincerely doubt it. That 'power disparity'.

But I am not speaking to that. Professors should not be nailing students in general and theirs in particular. I'm sure it's a rule then and now. (What they did AFTER being students was between two consenting adults)

In this age of #MeToo, those rumors would have mandated that you DO report those three professors... or else you too would have been nailed to the wall like Urban Meyer.

It seems...very foolhardy for the Academy to bring themselves to attention this way. The Academy is rife with the same abusive power dynamics that Hollywood had.; 8/3/18, 10:59 AM
Howard said...: All I can fathom is Jim Harbaugh isn't losing any sleep over this.; 8/3/18, 11:10 AM
Chuck said...: WK said...
The link I posted above is to an OSU policy based on Title IX requirements. So - I guess it would be more of a university policy violation than Title IX. Meyers wife is also a university employee in an instructor/faculty role - not sure what her duty to report in this situation might be if she had direct knowledge.

You are correct, and your question(s) are spot-on.

OSU is a very odd place, administratively. The biggest small town in the Midwest. I truly don't know what to expect. They have been ridiculously hard on some p.r. disasters, as with ex-OSU Marching Band Director Jon Waters, they have been measured in others (the Jim Tressel saga), and utterly lax in others (OSU has an exceedingly checkered Title IX-compliance history).; 8/3/18, 11:28 AM
Ralph L said...: his failure to report the alleged domestic violence seems a bit beside the point when Courtney Smith had already reported the matters to police....

That was my reaction. If she went to the police, she can go to OSU authorities, who can then bury it. If she went to Meyer (it sounds like he just heard about it), he could be in trouble if he didn't refer her to the police.

It used to be judgement before trial was bad, now we have judgement before investigation.; 8/3/18, 11:29 AM
FIDO said...: For the record, I am with Heinlein where a professor can marry an EX student. Great way to meet people. But I have serious doubts that the...preliminaries would pass muster these days.

I am not driving those cultural shifts...but I am willing to apply them equally.; 8/3/18, 11:29 AM
Chuck said...: Ann Althouse said...
"Who names their kid Urban?"

Fans of Urban Shocker?

Well a guy who was already named Urban B. Meyer might name his son Urban B. Meyer Jr.

And when the family history is of devout Roman Catholics in working-class Toledo, naming a son after the line of Popes who were named Urban is not such a stretch.; 8/3/18, 11:39 AM
MayBee said...: I've lost track of what people aren't allowed to have jobs, and which employers must fire all the people who work for them who may have complicated lives.; 8/3/18, 11:58 AM
rehajm said...: I tried to watch the whole thing but I was impaled when that lady blinked.; 8/3/18, 2:14 PM
readering said...: Sounds like the big mistake by Urban Meyer (great name; Linus is better) was lying about a serious matter on camera at a press conference.; 8/3/18, 3:11 PM
readering said...: Any rad parents out there to name their son Telesphorus? (Remember Meyer could go by Frank if he wanted.); 8/3/18, 3:14 PM
Known Unknown said...: "Sounds like the big mistake by Urban Meyer (great name; Linus is better) was lying about a serious matter on camera at a press conference."

Lying to the media is not a crime.; 8/3/18, 3:19 PM
readering said...: It never occurred to me that he might be in legal jeopardy.; 8/3/18, 3:33 PM
ballyfager said...: "Who names their kid Urban"? Well, perhaps someone whose last name was Development.

Think of Catch 22 and Major Major Major. He could neither be promoted nor demoted.; 8/3/18, 3:55 PM
Anthony said...: I wish my parents had called me Ishmael.; 8/3/18, 5:10 PM
Anthony said...: Who's the chick anyway? I don't want to hurt my ears listening to their verbal diarrhea.; 8/3/18, 5:11 PM
readering said...: Meyer in his prepared statement seems to agree with me, but he substitutes "fail" for "lie".; 8/3/18, 9:00 PM
RMc said...: Does this guy always fidget behind the podium?

You mean "lectern". You stand on a podium; you stand behind a lectern.

Carry on.; 8/4/18, 8:36 AM