"But that does not necessarily mean that the opposite choice — the clichés of floral or frilly garments often associated with the word 'girlie' — is the answer.... But there’s no question that the dominant dress code and mind-set about dress still hews to the Elizabeth Warren/Hillary Clinton/Kirsten Gillibrand mold.... That mold says the pantsuit — and its cousin, the stewardess skirt suit — is the Garment Least Likely to Offend Any Interest Group, and thus the garment of choice. All else is a risk...."
From a NYT article by Vanessa Friedman titled "It’s 2018: You Can Run for Office and Not Wear a Pantsuit/As unprecedented numbers of women enter the political arena, what does it mean to 'dress to win'?"
I clicked on that title because I thought it was going to say that it's a mistake for female candidates to wear pants (in any form) rather than a skirt/dress (of some kind). But the article lumped skirted suits and pantsuits together.
To my eye, women in pants look less dressed up than a man in a standard business suit, and I don't think women should put themselves at that disadvantage, especially since pantsuits look sloppier on a woman's body than a business suit on a man's body.
I don't mean to insult women by saying that, but women's bodies are (generally) shaped differently than men's and women's pants are (generally) fitted differently from men's suit pants. Men's suit pants do not hug the legs or crotch, so they completely deflect attention away from the lower body. Men's suits bring us right up to the shoulders — the idealized shoulders — and and then, via shirt and tie, aim us straight at the face.
Women's pantsuits are more fitted in the leg and use color in a way that draws the eye downward, and they often do things with the jacket — such as making it very long — to cover up what's happening down there in the legs. But then the jacket is distracting.
In the 2016 campaign, Hillary Clinton's jackets were flat-out weird, with perplexing patch pockets. In fact, I don't like Vanessa Friedman's reference to the "Elizabeth Warren/Hillary Clinton/Kirsten Gillibrand mold," because Warren and Gillibrand wear very low-key things and Hillary Clinton launched into clothes that we struggled to understand, that got compared to loungewear or sci-fi costumery.
I don't really know what the best answer is. It depends on the individual. But you're asking to be trusted with responsibility, not to be enjoyed as a pop star or fashion maven. You don't want to look as though you're seeking power for purpose of expressing your individuality. Rather than go into more detail on that subject, I'll just give this post my tag "I'm for Boring."
June 21, 2018
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Sarah Palin didn't seem to have any problem with this.
Let’s face it. Hillary’s suits are more like Kim Jung Un than any other politician male or female, living or dead.
Coincidence?
Palin was perfectly feminine and wire everything well. In fact I was surprised at how busty she looked in a T shirt because her “working” outfits were so modest, and kept attention on her face. I’m not sure how she pulled it off but she never got enough respect for her style.
It's not the pantsuit. It's the voice. HIllary's voice is a sure loser. Grating.
Normals cannot stand to listen to her screech.
“wore” not “wire” in that first sentence. Ack.
Gilliibrant is skinny enough to make pantsuit pants look good. Most middle aged women, especially politicians, aren’t.
Men’s suit have evolved to help make men look good - they help to conceal those extra pounds. Women’s suits are much more unforgiving, for the reasons Anne states.
Neither did Violetta Chamorro, Corazon Aquino, Park Geun-hye, etc. etc.
Some candidates should only run in very cold weather.
An overcoat and a muffler works on almost anyone.
They could try dressing the way the Queen does now, complete with funky, matching top hat.
Do any of them wear hats?
While trim women can wear them, the pantsuit has become the tent of choice for the frumpy-looking and/or overweight female candidate.
Indeed. Sarah was hot in a pantsuit.
She had to be destroyed.
Hillary looks best in a Bohemian Mao muumuu.
Hillary asks a helluva lot from her clothes. They always look exhausted.
I glanced at the article and without fail it said it wasn't fair.
Yawn.
I deal with women every day who dress in a way that is functional, expresses competence and does not draw attention to their bodies in a sexual way.
The photo of the state of the Union speech showed a bunch of women doing that. What is notable is the glum look on their faces.
Trump rewrote the book. He dressed well, but his hair, weight, even dour look became his signature.
The trick is to have something meaningful to say when people look at you.
It you aren't smart enough to do that, indeed life isn't fair.
The Mu Mu was never really given a chance. It's the colors, stupid. Pastels are bad because they wash out the face. Blacks, reds and all whites are good because they frame the face. The face is the communication tool that people are searching to figure others out. And the face imprinted into memories makes one a "celebrity"which explains all PR is good PR.
Theresa May, no spring chicken, manages to dress and carry herself well. So does Angela Merkel, who is no less dumpy than Hillary.
Anyone not will to accept the results of an election is a danger to democracy.
--Hillary Clinton
Your fashion choices are limited when you have to be tossed into the back of a waiting van at any minute. And Hillary loved Mao.
I reject the notion we’re rejecting certain female candidates because of their clothes.
It’s because you suck.
There's always the Liberty Leading the People look.
It's romantic. Notice the man without pants.
Hillary never wears the same thing twice. Major funding for Mao MuuMuu/ Shower Curtain. I thought her orange pantsuit was the best.
Your fashion choices are limited when you have to be tossed into the back of a waiting van at any minute
Auto racing fire suits have strategically placed grab handles.
What the Hell was Hillary's obsession with intergalactic overlord collars on those hideous outfits? Who wants to project a pin-head look by making the collar large enough to swallow a warthog? I just didn't get that aspect of Hillary's wardrobe choices.
Blogger Henry said...
Sarah Palin didn't seem to have any problem with this.
That's why she had to be destroyed and that idiot she was running with helped the left to do that.
Nicole Wallace who was her "handler" in that campaign is now on MSNBC where she belongs.
Hillary Clinton launched into clothes that we struggled to understand, that got compared to loungewear or sci-fi costumery.
I have given the GOPe plenty of criticism, but I must admit, slipping a GOP operative into Hillary's campaign as her stylist was a brilliant move.
The article's author seems to be unaware of how unusual it is for men to wear a suit these days. Lawyers, corporate executives, and politicians are the only people who routinely wear a suit to work. Wearing a suit to work is an assertion of power or at least that you are seeking power. Women are going to have to dress in such a way as to show that they too are serious people who can be trusted with power. I agree with you about how pantsuits look, but some women don't have the legs for a skirt, so that is the best compromise they can come up with.
intergalactic overlord collars... *with a nod to Mao.
LOL - yes.
Blogger Henry said...
Sarah Palin didn't seem to have any problem with this.
That's why she had to be destroyed and that idiot she was running with helped the left to do that.
Nicole Wallace who was her "handler" in that campaign is now on MSNBC where she belongs.
The male political candidate’s uniform is the men’s suit, chosen to demonstrate that men could fit into a male-dominated world.
But that does not necessarily mean that the opposite choice — the clichés of t-shirts and baseball caps often associated with the word 'dude' — is the answer.... But there’s no question that the dominant dress code and mind-set about dress still hews to the "only your necktie can vary" mold. ... That mold says the suit — which doesn't have a cousin — is the Garment Least Likely to Offend Any Interest Group, and thus the garment of choice. All else is a risk....
"only your necktie MAY vary"
Somebody should write The Pantsuit Monologues.
intergalactic overlord collars
Did Hillary read the "Evil Overlords Guide?" I submit that she did not.
http://www.worldconquer.org/evil_overlord.html
Ralph,
This one wears a hat all the time...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederica_Wilson
But the phrase “All hat, no cattle” comes to mind.
Sarah Palin vs Hillary Clinton
https://tinyurl.com/y7oqguhr
https://tinyurl.com/ybd2653b
To be fair to Hillary, there is nothing that is going to make her look good. Not even a boatload of scotch.
"to cover up what's happening down there in the legs"
Not just there.
Anyway, a corollary to the Althouse Law that differences between men and women are presented to favor women: differences that (seem to) favor men are presented as unfair.
The best look for a woman is a jacket and dress. Something with princess seams that skims her body and has a hemline just above, at the middle, or just below the knee. Since there's no seam at the waist, she's not cut in half, and she looks taller. The jacket can be short or long. It adds the business look to the dress. Check out how Kate Middleton, Melania Trump, and other tall, slender, beautiful women wear this look. Then look for an older, heavier woman like Madeline Albright, maybe Delta Burke, and see how they look in the same style. It flatters anyone.
Henry @8:49AM mentioned Corazon Aquino, and that's who I immediately thought of when I read your post. If I recall correctly she wore plain dresses with simple cuts that looked very good on her. More women politicians should dress like that.
Bottom line: Hillary had no sense of style. Some of her outfits looked like they were stitched together from cheap carpet remnants.
This is all about helping Kamala Harris. She’s got great legs.
Shrug.
Most female politicians are old.
Most female politicians are overweight.
Most female politicians are ugly.
Most female politicians are Feminists.
They dress accordingly.
Queen Noor of Jordan, Italian and French Female Politicians. Sara Palin. All seem to pull this off easily and effortlessly.
So the question isn't to 'society'. It is to these women.
What looks best on a woman is a waist.
If you make it hard to tell whether it's a man or a woman, there's more concentration on finding out. It almost always matters which you are.
This makes me miss the Petite Sophisticate. I used to love that store. It had fantastic suits, pant suits, and dresses.
"Blogger holdfast said...
Gilliibrant is skinny enough to make pantsuit pants look good."
Maybe once. But look again.
Designers virtue signalled by refusing to work for Melania.
Did not hear who was designer for Hillary's coronation gown?!
Was anybody up to that challenge?
Merkel wears utilitarian outfits. She’s built like Churchill and sort of dresses like him, too. I think a cigar in the corner of her mouth would help.
Gillibrand has a gunt
Thatcher didn't wear pants suits, and she could kick liberal ass at will. We need another one like her, or a dozen.
Of course, the conspiracy theorists believed Hillary was covering up a back brace. That's why she kept wearing those weird heavy jackets all the time.
I'd like to see a male candidate wear shorts exclusively, or even a kilt. Add a fanny pack, a mullet, and velcro shoes.
I'm wearing velcro shoes right now. I hate laces. I'm pretty active, working dawn to dusk always moving around with my hands full, and laces somehow untie multiple times per day. Ain't nobody got time fo dat. Why are we still using the same way of securing our footwear as the cavemen did? Life is too short for unnecessary hassles.
Anyone not will to accept the results of an election is a danger to democracy.
--Hillary Clinton
Well, everybody always knew that whatever comes out of her mouth is only as true as she needs it to be at the moment. She’s like Inga that way, can’t remember all of the things she said prior, and not worried about what she might have to say in the future.
Interesting how so many body size judgments are placed on women politicians. A suit favors an overweight man, hides a multitude of rolls and buldges. Women wearing suits can take advantage. Alls fair in overweight politicians wearing suits.
Tim, do I live rent free in your brain?
Tim--
Send Inga a bill for past due rent.
She admits the debt.
AA said..."In the 2016 campaign, Hillary Clinton's jackets were flat-out weird..."
I would suggest it is the soft-shelled turtle look.
Inga concedes the point.
The more I look at that picture of Hillary that I posted the URL to, the more convinced I am that she has seen Cthulhu. Look at the eyes!
"The nightmare corpse-city of R'lyeh…was built in measureless eons behind history by the vast, loathsome shapes that seeped down from the dark stars. There lay great Cthulhu and his hordes, hidden in green slimy vaults."
Tim in Vermont said...
Anyone not will to accept the results of an election is a danger to democracy.
--Hillary Clinton"
The devil is in the details since elections are decided by who counts the votes as per Hillary's idol Joseph Stalin. Give the Democrats their due, they sure do try hard to get the vote count right. By Any Means Necessary.
One thing that both Hillary and Trump agree on is that not accepting the results of an election is a threat to democracy. That's why Trump called the media the enemy of the people, and that's why he was right.
I don't mean to insult women by saying that, but women's bodies are (generally) shaped differently than men's
Wait, wait, wait...are you saying that there are biological differences between men and women and that gender is not a social construct?
Heresy! Where's the Feminist inquisition?
I'd like to see a male candidate wear shorts exclusively, or even a kilt. Add a fanny pack, a mullet, and velcro shoes.
that's hot.
As John "Dress for Success" Molloy and Manolo the Shoeblogger used to point out, women project more authority wearing skirts than pants. There's nothing wrong with pantsuits per se, and many women look quite attractive in them, but they're not the equivalent of a man's dress suit in terms of formality and authority-projection. Pantsuits are inappropriately sporty, they reveal too much about a woman's legs and rear end (because women are built differently from men and their clothes have to be tailored accordingly), and they can look disconcertingly masculine, as though the wearer is trying to pass herself off as just as tough as a man.
The female equivalent of a man's suit is something skirted (an actual skirt or a dress) with a jacket. The jacket is essential. It is modest, it looks dignified, it blocks the bustline, waist, and hips (which are distracting, whether because attractive or because unattractive)and it draws the viewer's attention up to the face, just as a man's suit jacket does. Needless to say, the skirt must be knee-length or a mite above the knee at the very shortest. Women whose legs aren't the greatest can wear midi-length skirts to great advantage. Hillary wore those sometimes as First Lady, and she looked just fine. Why she abandoned feminine midi skirts for garish, ugly pantsuits is beyond me.
The best-dressed women politicians in my opinion are Theresa May--who always wears skirts for public appearances--and Carly Fiorina, who looked terrific and projected requisite authority during the GOP debates with her slim, perfectly fitted, elegant skirted suits and classy high heels. She held her own visually in a sea of men in their dress suits. Kate Middleton, although not a politician, is another good role model, as are Queens Sofia and Letizia of Spain.
The only woman politician who can get away with pants outfits on state occasions is Angela Merkel. That's because she chooses extremely well-tailored items in high-quality fabrics and muted, neutral colors that go with her extremely muted and neutral-looking face, hair, and body type. It also helps that she's Angela Merkel, ruler of Europe.
It also helps that she's Angela Merkel, ruler of Europe.
Black mourning dress worked just fine for Queen Victoria, ruler of the world.
Great analysis, Charlotte.
The picture at the link looks like an ad for 20 packages of Ex-Lax.
It's good for he, she or xe, whatever those Dems want to claim to be.
The huge, plain collars were a nod to Ellen DeG and her crowd.
Granted, a poorly designed female pantsuit can hide a multitude of sins: back brace, insulin pumps, bulletproof vests...
People forget exactly how 'beloved' Hillary is by the other side of the electorate.
This thread would benefit from Trooper York's views.
Charlotte has it covered. I would add that the skirt length should be at the Golden Ratio from the shoulder (in whatever shoe is worn with the outfit) to the floor.
Also, as much as I dislike the woman, Pelosi nails the woman politician look even when she doesn't wear a jacket.
Most female politicians are ugly.
Nah.
Compare the women in the House Republican Conference vs those in the D Caucus.
Adjust your statement accordingly.
"Men's suits bring us right up to the shoulders — the idealized shoulders — and and then, via shirt and tie, aim us straight at the face."
After discussing the "idealized shoulders" looks like you got flustered. Btw, I've heeded your advice on shorts, and steer away from them anytime I want to be taken seriously.
"You don't want to look as though you're seeking power for purpose of expressing your individuality."
Good advice for all genders and ages.
Very Petersonesque.
Boring is good in an interview, until the interviewer invites you to discuss interesting things. Sometimes it's a trap, though. Be careful. I never lay that trap. I'm always interested in what people genuinely have to say, but I'm interviewing rarely and for high level positions. Boring is professional, and until you've distinguished yourself in some significant way, it makes a lot of sense to act professionally. When you act professionally in a professional organization, your contributions are recognized by managers. Managers aren't always the smartest people in the organization. However, a good organization will have excellent coaches in managerial roles. And coaches want you to act a certain way. In business, especially bigger business, that way is professional.
If you don't act professionally in an organization that expects it, even if you're a strong contributor, those contributions may be missed. Seen it many times. I've brought that very situation on myself. Unless you're in a start-up or you're already a big swinging dick or pussy, act professionally boring and put your nose to the grindstone. Once you're a big deal, you can act any way you want. Prior to that, unless you're in a venture funded start-up that specifically encourages individuality, you're doing it wrong. And those organizations that encourage individuality? Guess what folks: you can't encourage that. People are either individualistic or they're herd creatures. If you're encouraging individuality in your organization, you're creating a herd of "individuals."
And that's why I too was impressed with Ms. Amlen's approach to being offended and pulling a THAT'S NOT FUNNY move. She didn't freak out and say DON'T PUBLISH! or I'LL EMBARRASS YOU IF YOU PUBLISH IT! She just said to her boss she didn't want to write it up, and he stepped in. I imagine Ms. Amlen's demeanor to be highly courteous and professional, even if she's utterly lacking in a sense of humor. That's ironic given that she edits a games column, but this is after all The Age of That's Not Funny!
She probably has a sense of humor, but as a herd creature with a high profile job, she probably didn't want to risk her own public shaming. My guess: she had no problem at all with the puzzle personally, but she was worried about the consequences she'd face in her social circle or even professionally if she wrote it up. She's a bit of a wimp, but at least she acted professionally.
Depending on the job, I'd consider hiring her. Definitely not for a leadership position, but she seems smart and she'd make for a productive worker bee. She's have a better chance if she wore a skirt suit, but my guess is Ms. Amlen wears pant suits. And flats.
Probably very little makeup and not enough hair product either. Too boring.
Nikki Haley knows how to dress.
Just sayin.
"that got compared to loungewear or sci-fi costumery."
She had one outfit that looked like a giant pot holder. Not attractive.
I think that if a woman were stupid enough to emulate Hillary Clinton, she might want to develop a pair of Crazy Eyes to go with the pantsuit. That would go down well in a job interview.
rehajm said...
Nikki Haley knows how to dress.
Just sayin.
All these pesky rumors about affairs might bother some people, but I suspect she enjoys that sort of attention. She's a powerful lady. The press have long noticed that Nikki Haley is a woman who knows how to have an impact with her considerable good looks.
"...and Madame Secretary chose fashions by SPECTRE, from their 'Blofeld' Collection"
Why don’t political women wear clothes that are flattering and not attention grabbing? Hillary’s choice was to dress and look like an Oompah Loompah - not a great look. And then the voice. Yikes!
Pantsuit was probably necessitated by Clinton's legs/ankles. Not an unreasonable solution, but she did not generally choose the best suits. The suit she wore for the nomination was actually pretty good (apart from the legs -- needed more volume in the legs, I think so tue fabric could flow more loosely), but the decision to go with white was a mistake. If she had taken thay same cut and had it done up in shades of navy and grey, and maybe a beige, she wouldn't have looked stylish, but she would have looked fine. Given her body type, white is kind of a risk, frankly. The Mao collar everyone makes fun of is also not a great fit for her, like a three button suit on a portly man -- she would benefit from something a little more elongating, which the mens-suit-style lapels from her nomination suit would do, particularly paired with the contrasting blouse/shirt.
Tasteful, of simple design in a solid color should be the order of the day. Well tailored is essential. Pelosi dresses well [except I'm not fond of the beads] and so did Palin and Fiorina. Hillary nearly always looked frumpy. The only good outfit I ever saw her in was in a photo where she wore a navy blazer over a white cami. She looked smart and quite elegant. Why she picked the wardrobe she did for her campaign is a mystery that may never be solved. But if it helped in any way at all to lose her votes, I'm grateful.
Gendered hips.
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