April 26, 2018

"Some self-identified incels... have developed an elaborate sociopolitical explanation for their sexual failures, one that centers on the idea that women are shallow, vicious, and only attracted to hyper-muscular men."

"They see this as a profound injustice against men like them, who suffer an inherent genetic disadvantage through no fault of their own. A small radical fringe believes that violence, especially against women, is an appropriate response — that an 'Incel Rebellion' or 'Beta [Male] Uprising' will eventually overturn the sexual status quo.... These incels post obsessively about so-called 'Chads,' meaning sexually successful and attractive men, and 'Stacys,' attractive, promiscuous women who sleep with the Chads. Both are positioned as unattainable: The Chad is the masculine ideal, one incel men cannot emulate for reasons of poor genetics, while the Stacy is whom every incel man wants to sleep with but cannot because they aren’t a Chad. It’s this embrace of helplessness, of their certainty of their own sexual doom, that makes the more extreme incel communities so dangerous... They see the world through the lens of entitlement: They are owed sex but cannot have it because women are shallow. This manifests in a deep and profound hatred for women as a group.... They see themselves as a class, oppressed by a social system that’s rigged in favor of other men. One post on an incel subreddit compared their worldview to Marxism, with incels playing the part of the proletariat and Chad the bourgeoisie...."

From "Incel, the misogynist ideology that inspired the deadly Toronto attack, explained" (Vox).

220 comments:

1 – 200 of 220   Newer›   Newest»
Michael K said...

They used to be 85 pound weaklings who could grow muscles with "Dynamic Tension," which does work.

I don't think the "chads" were kicking sand in their faces, though.

Big Mike said...

In your shoes, Althouse, I wouldn’t count on Vox to explain how to read a digital clock. Though they may have a special insight into beta males.

rhhardin said...

while the Stacy is whom every incel man wants to sleep with but cannot because they aren’t a Chad

Who[m]ever or the person who[m], not bare whom.

It has to be a predicate for "is" as well as an object in its clause, since the clause itself is not the predicate of "is."

chickelit said...

The gamete is rigged for hanging chads.

Ralph L said...

One day they'll learn the Stacys are train wrecks AKA crazy hot.

rhhardin said...

It seems like an impossible fantasy of an explanation to me.

Men get along without women just fine.

rhhardin said...

The woman's job is to convince the guy that he's better off with her.

MayBee said...

"self-identified incels" As if someone else would identify them that way.

MikeR said...

Dunno. I was kind of a loser like that in college. I don't think I would have joined a special group of losers.
Anyhow, it isn't the muscles, it's the attitude. There are groups that train you in attitude. I think that might work better than a group that trains you to be an angry loser.

mockturtle said...

Holy cow, will the victimhood never end? Should unattractive women protest that pretty women get all the 'best' men? The issue, as implied in the article, is that unattractive [physically or economically] men often see themselves as somehow deserving of supermodels.

mockturtle said...

Rhhardin rationalizes: Men get along without women just fine.

Ray - SoCal said...

Legalizing prostitution would solve the issue.

Rob said...

The answer, obviously, is that women should put out more often. If it saves just one life . . . .

exhelodrvr1 said...

I bet all of them are Democrats.

etbass said...

Rh instructing the great Althouse on uses of "whom", "whomever", etc. That's rich.

mockturtle said...

...women are shallow...

How many of these guys would find a deep-thinking fat woman attractive?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Incel is involuntarily celibate.

Is there a term for involuntarily promiscuous? Because that's what he has to look forward to in prison.

rhhardin said...

Rhhardin rationalizes: Men get along without women just fine.

Men can jerk off. Ejaculation produces a hormone flood that completely turns off sexual interest, for a while.

That's something that shows men that they're being saps when they're interested in women, something that's played for humor in fact. Nevertheless they are interested in women, say you can find one who's funny or fun to be around. But that's not a sexual need.

Men also like other stuff. Paglia says math is an escape from women. You can stay interested in a problem all day with no trouble at all.

Probably sports also.

John Lynch said...

Do what you need to do to get what you want.

If you aren't willing to do what you need to do, you don't want it bad enough.

That's ok, change what you want. Everyone does this. You can't have everything and must make choices. What do you most want?

People who say they want something but do nothing to get it are pathetic. I respect people who try and fail. I don't respect those that never try.

Sebastian said...

Just wait until Incel comes to China and India.

Titus said...

I used to be really skinny as a kid, now I am a total chad.

tits.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

mockturtle said...

How many of these guys would find a deep-thinking fat woman attractive?

Find them attractive? ~0%. Want to fuck them anyway? ~100%.

For guys, when it comes to sex, better than nothing is a very low standard.

rhhardin said...

Rh instructing the great Althouse on uses of "whom", "whomever", etc. That's rich.

Whom is mostly obsolete (except as the object of fronted prepositions: for whom the bell tolls) so if you use it, it has to be correct. It's a claim to know what you're doing.

Using who is mostly always safe.

Nonapod said...

So "incel" is a term I just learned.

I guess the unwritten rules for creating a victim grievance group is you first must create a label for your group. Ideally it should be be simple with few syllables, but its meaning should be vague enough that it requires someone asking for a definition. That way you have an opportunity for an explanation and lecture.

Freeman Hunt said...

This ideology was new to me. Always new radical groups wanting to kill people.

Surprising that they think Stacy will wake up one day and want to sleep with murderers.

Comanche Voter said...

Ah you look at this and your first question is, "Who writes this stuff?"

I could figure out what "incel" meant; I mean after all I've been able to comprehend "cisgender" and maybe even LGBTQQ.

But the ways that people can put labels on faux misery and create new classes of victims continue to astound.

John Lynch said...

Also,

Notice how all of these lone murderer types have a problem with women?

My name goes here. said...

"Should unattractive women protest that pretty women get all the 'best' men?"

They already do. It is called feminism.

Or Queen Bee syndrome.

Or Hypergamy.



mockturtle said...

Rhhardin, I contend that women can live without men more easily than men without women.

Darrell said...

No one is owed sex. You either earn it non-monetarily or pay for it.
Tattoo that on your forehead, if you must.

gilbar said...

these guys sound alot like rush limbaugh's femmists

Freeman Hunt said...

Unattractive men who scorn unattractive women to pine sulkily for especially attractive ones are repugnant. There's nothing repugnant in someone simply being unattractive. It's the rejection of camaraderie and companionship to wallow in unfulfilled feelings of entitlement that's so off-putting.

buwaya said...

Muscles aren't that hard to get.
Much easier than living in bitterness.
And jeez, the world is full of women ready to be scooped up by first world men. It just takes a bit of initiative.

The bigger problem (other that the occasional proclivity to mass murder) is all the Western women not forming families and having babies due to ridiculously neurotic cultural memes. Talk about incels.

Aunty Trump said...

All anybody who cannot get laid has to do is lower their standards. There's something deeper here not about sex.

William said...

Now that he's a mass murderer, the marriage proposals will come flooding in. Women find homicidal insanity a very attractive trait in a man. He should, however, take more of an interest in his appearance. His hair is kind of fuzzy and balding. I think he'd look a lot better if he shaved his skull. A shaved skull would really complement that bad boy, mass killer thing he's got going on.....If he makes the effort, he could easily outdo the Parkland shooter in his quest for female admiration. That Waffle House killer is a total Chad, however, so even in the rarefied world of mass killers, he will have to accept his limitations. No every mass killer can be a Tsarnaev, but there's a woman out there for every homicidal maniac.

Fritz said...

Blogger mockturtle said...
Rhhardin, I contend that women can live without men more easily than men without women.

Until they need to make gasoline, build houses or fish for crabs.

Aunty Trump said...

Freeman nailed it.

Henry said...

It’s this embrace of helplessness, of their certainty of their own _____ doom, that makes the more extreme _____ communities so dangerous... They see the world through the lens of entitlement

This is a really interesting sentence. If you switch out "sexual" for "economic" or "political" or "cultural" you can replace "incel" with almost any violent community.

* * *

Philip Roth had an early book, whose title escapes me, about the responsibility of unattractive people to woo and mate attractive people to harmonize the gene pool. Of course, the plan goes awry.

traditionalguy said...

With all due respect, all the stupid incels need is a set of York barbells. The rest can be learned with trial and error, or a female life coach. Chads are not built in a day.

rhhardin said...

Rhhardin, I contend that women can live without men more easily than men without women.

If they don't long to be taken care of, or wanting a family, or the biological clock ending. Stuff women want.

AlbertAnonymous said...

Hey, if these “incel” guys can’t get a Stacy, maybe they need a new plan. I hear that Stacy’s mom has got it going on...

Thank you! I’ll be hear all week. Tip your servers!

mjg235 said...

So it's identity politics for the sexually unsuccessful. And of course Vox finally sees the marxist undertones, the ease with which it justifies injustice, not because they have even a high-schoolers insight into the ideological danger of identity politics, but because it pattern matches as anti-feminist.

Modern journalist as dog chasing its own tail. If dogs could sink to the level of blind partisanship, that is.

Roger Sweeny said...

This is the funhouse mirror reflection of Susan Brownmiller's "Rape is a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear."

Professional lady said...

How did people come to hate each other so much? Seems like envy is at the root of a lot of it.

Larry J said...

I guess some people need Lowered Expectations.

AlbertAnonymous said...

“Here” not heat. Ugh! damn autocorrect

AlbertAnonymous said...

Ughhhh

Ann Althouse said...

"Men get along without women just fine."

If it works to tell yourself that, then you are, as you say, fine. But you can't really control your mind, so what if you flip into feeling aggrieved that you deprived of love? Then you are not fine. And that's a problem even if you would also not be fine if you did have a woman. There are people who get into the mental position where they like whatever it is they have, and there are people who do exactly the opposite.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

tim in vermont said...

All anybody who cannot get laid has to do is lower their standards.

I think this is off-target. I suspect the real problem is not too-high standards. The real problem is they are unwilling to risk rejection.

The guys who succeed with women are the ones who try. Sure, they get rejected sometimes, but then they move on to someone else and eventually find someone who does not reject them. In the process, they adjust their standards, and/or up their game.



Ann Althouse said...

"Rh instructing the great Althouse on uses of "whom", "whomever", etc. That's rich."

Well, I just cut and pasted text, so the instruction didn't apply to me. The only way I'm going to get "whom" grammatically wrong is by ditching it in favor of "who" because it doesn't sound like the way anyone speaks.

Roger Sweeny said...

"Whom" should go the way of "thou."

Ann Althouse said...

"Surprising that they think Stacy will wake up one day and want to sleep with murderers."

I don't think they think that. They think they are permanently excluded from the good life believed in by their culture and so they decide the only way to go is destruction.

It's like the cliché murder motive: If I can't have you, no one else will.

rhhardin said...

If it works to tell yourself that, then you are, as you say, fine.

Or it might be an observation.

tcrosse said...

It's hard to get in on the Identity Politics thing if you're just an ordinary zhlub. You have to get imaginative and push the box outside the envelope to find some oppression.

Nonapod said...

If there's a winner in the idiotic who-needs-who more category, don't spinsters typically live longer than confirmed bachelors? At any rate, we're gonna find out once hyper realistic sex robots become commonplace. Maybe the end of the species will be because of excessive self indulgence.

Achilles said...

Plastic surgery should be cheap and freely available. The world will be a better place as it becomes more available.

In the not far off future, i.e. most of us will be alive, there will be modifications available that will only be limited by imagination.

rhhardin said...

The particular whom mistake was an interesting one. Willing to write something that sounded slightly wrong because it must be right, without seeing how a single word wouldn't work for the situation.

AlbertAnonymous said...

I do think envy and jealousy (and self absorption) have a lot to do with it.

Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes.

Guy throws a costume party “come as your favorite emotion” as the theme. Night of the party the doorbell rings and at the door is a guy dressed all in green. Host says “lemme guess, you’re ENVY?” Correct. Next one at the door is a woman dressed all in red. Host says “lemme guess, you’re ANGER or RAGE?” Correct again.

Third time the doorbell rings, the host finds on the doorstep a man, naked, with a piece of fruit (a pear) stuck to his member. The host is shocked and also stumped as he cannot figure out why the guest is dressed this way. Finally he says, I think you’re at the wrong house. This is a “come as your favorite emotion party”.

The guest says “I know, I’m fuckin’ despair”

Heartless Aztec said...

All the incels need is a good dose of Chateau Heartiste and his 16 Commandments. A lttle practice and they should be good to go for babe aquisition a McLoving life.

Sebastian said...

"women can live without men more easily than men without women"

Without power and central heating, without cars and computers, without ships and trains and airplanes, without most pharmaceuticals and forms of surgery, without classical music and the means to listen to it: enjoy!

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Sebastian said...

Without power and central heating, without cars and computers, without ships and trains and airplanes, without most pharmaceuticals and forms of surgery, without classical music and the means to listen to it: enjoy!

Approximately none of which would have been created if the guys weren't trying to get laid.

Henry said...

It's like the cliché murder motive: If I can't have you, no one else will.

There's a whole strain of country music based on that conceit.

Mr Wibble said...

Ray said...
Legalizing prostitution would solve the issue.


Not really. Some guys might be fine just getting laid, but I suspect that a lot would be unhappy because they don't just want sex, they want companionship.

Char Char Binks said...

They can't get women, just like their fathers couldn't. It's genetic.

The coming sexbot revolution will solve this problem. Men will have no use for women as sexbot technology moves past the uncanny valley into the promised land of sexbots to rival, and surpass, any woman ever, even Gene Tierney. Every Chad will give up his Stacy for a new, improved robo-Stacy.

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

There has been some mention in the coverage that the murderer has Asperger's. I guess it is considered more humane to say a killer holds an evil ideology, he must be held more or less responsible (allowing for evil teachers and internet sites), etc. than to say a disability is associated with crime. But isn't it part of Asperger's to feel lonely--wanting ordinary social company, usually failing to achieve it--and then to be drawn to some group that makes you feel included? Could be a cult, could be an ideology? Could be right or left?

Rance Fasoldt said...

I knew a guy who would walk up to a bar, turn to the woman next him and say, “Wanna get laid?” If she rejected him, he’d turn to the woman on the other side, and … it seemed awfully crass to me, but he got laid a lot.

Balfegor said...

Re: Freeman Hunt:

Surprising that they think Stacy will wake up one day and want to sleep with murderers.

Yeah, I wonder where they got that idea. So surprising, yes.

Ken B said...

You believe what you read on Vox??

Sebastian said...

"They think they are permanently excluded from the good life"

This. And there will be more.

No PUA commandments or sex robots are going to solve it.

Robert Cook said...

"In the not far off future, i.e. most of us will be alive, there will be modifications available that will only be limited by imagination."

Stanislaw Lem, Poland's premier science fiction writer, wrote a short story on that subject decades ago. I can't remember the name of the story, as I read it 30 years ago or more. It was quite funny, as people were having themselves changed into all manner of baroque non-human shapes.

buwaya said...

"if I can't have you, no one else will" is an extremely common theme in Mexican/LatAm music.

Freeman Hunt said...

The women who write love letters to criminals are baffling.

"I don't think they think that. They think they are permanently excluded from the good life believed in by their culture and so they decide the only way to go is destruction."

Yes, I think that's the motivation too, but it said that their movement also believes society will change by their actions.

Sebastian said...

"Approximately none of which would have been created if the guys weren't trying to get laid."

Goes to show, ignorance is bliss.

(Kidding, kidding. Mostly.)

Ken B said...

Rance Fasoldt: My best pick up line was “Hi, I'm John D Rockefeller the fourth.”

Mr Wibble said...

All anybody who cannot get laid has to do is lower their standards.

Yeah, but even I have limits to how low I'm willing to go.

One problem, I think, is that at least with women there's a huge spread between the prettiest girls and the ugliest. The lower end keeps dropping. I see a lot more women who are obese, tattooed, multiple piercings, dress horribly, etc.

The Vault Dweller said...

"How many of these guys would find a deep-thinking fat woman attractive?"

Yeah I think this is it. Lots of these guys are just trying to bat out of their league. But I suspect this happens with both sexes. It is hard to convince lots of young women that the unatheletic, slightly short, pudgy guy might be a decent partner. These guys should just hang in there. Even if they aren't a hot commodity in their young twenties, things change as men and women age. As a very crude group, with a crude song, with crude lyrics put it.

"Women are like dog-doo, now hear me through don't interupt,

tcrosse said...

I was a cis incel, but as a teenager I transitioned.

madAsHell said...

Chelsea Clinton is already scheming to exploit the ivtersectionalities between antifa and incel.

Hillary has found another political identify to blame in her next book. The working title is "Twat Happened".

Yeah....I know. I'm lame. I've already used the "Twat Happened" line, but hasn't Hillary published two blame-all books?

The Vault Dweller said...

It's just the older they are the easier they get to pick up."

Oops left off the last bit of the lyrics.

madAsHell said...

damn!! intersectionalities isn't in my spell checker

jwl said...

Psychiatrist Scott Alexander had terrific post at his blog about this topic.

----------------

I had a patient, let’s call him ‘Henry’ for reasons that are to become clear, who came to hospital after being picked up by police for beating up his fifth wife.

So I asked the obvious question: “What happened to your first four wives?”

“Oh,” said the patient, “Domestic violence issues. Two of them left me. One of them I got put in jail, and she’d moved on once I got out. One I just grew tired of.”

Or to spell it out very carefully, Henry clearly has no trouble attracting partners. He’s been married five times and had multiple extra-marital affairs and pre-marital partners, many of whom were well aware of his past domestic violence convictions and knew exactly what they were getting into.

Meanwhile, here I was, twenty-five years old, never been on a date in my life, every time I ask someone out I get laughed at, I’m constantly teased and mocked for being a virgin and a nerd whom no one could ever love, starting to develop a serious neurosis about it.

And here I was, tried my best never to be mean to anyone, pursued a productive career, worked hard to help all of my friends. I didn’t think I deserved to have the prettiest girl in school prostrate herself at my feet. But I did think I deserved to not be doing worse than Henry.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/

Bay Area Guy said...

Vox has gone full Beta Male.

Never go full Beta Male.

Nonapod said...

Stanislaw Lem, Poland's premier science fiction writer, wrote a short story on that subject decades ago. I can't remember the name of the story, as I read it 30 years ago or more. It was quite funny, as people were having themselves changed into all manner of baroque non-human shapes.

Years ago there was an episode of the cartoon "Batman Beyond" (the show took place in an unspecified near future) depicted teenage kids getting all sorts of genetic modifications to look cool. They'd get things like cats eyes, canine teeth, fur, and the like. I remember thinking "Oh yeah, that's totally gonna be a thing".

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Titus said...
I used to be really skinny as a kid, now I am a total chad.


You missed an opportunity to mention how you where hanging, This is not like you.

Rick said...

The issue, as implied in the article, is that unattractive [physically or economically] men often see themselves as somehow deserving of supermodels.

This strikes me as a misinterpretation driven by ideology. There's no support for the charge he's only focused on the tiny percentage at the top. This is just what the left says to pathologize those who criticize feminists.

Aunty Trump said...

Personality disorders come with rigid confirmation bias even or, maybe especially, intelligent people can be fooled by it. It's nice to try to mock these people out of their debilitating patterns of thought, but it won't work.

Maybe suicide booths are the answer for people who can't believe that there are people who want to and can help them, because they seem pretty firmly trapped. And Ignorance is Bliss is right about facing rejection but if they get focused on a single woman, they perceive the stakes as enormous or they generalize a couple of rejections across all women.

Whatever is mentally ailing this guy is not going to be sussed out in this thread though.

madAsHell said...

You know......Chad sounds like the name of a gay actor. Rock Hudson? Tab Hunter? Chad!!

Stacy just sounds like a diesel dyke.

The Vault Dweller said...

I wonder if one of the side effects of feminism in society is that it has shaped men's personalities to make them less attractive to a large subset of women? I certainly think the reverse is partially true.

Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...

mock: Holy cow, will the victimhood never end? Should unattractive women protest that pretty women get all the 'best' men?

I think that franchise has been up and running concurrently with its male equivalent since...forever.

It appears to have gotten more pathological on both sides lately.

madAsHell said...

Holy cow!! The Urban Dictionary includes an entry for chad.

madAsHell said...

The Urban Dictionary includes an entry for stacy.

Aunty Trump said...

"Whom" should go the way of "thou."

And steak should be outlawed because a baby can't chew it.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

The label "terrorism" is the Chad and Stacy of bad things. The other labels - like mass murder here - are envious of Chad and Stacy. Twenty years ago Vox would have labelled the Toronto killings a hate crime. Hate crime used to be a Chad and Stacy.

mockturtle said...

I suppose unattractive women could move to China, where women--any women!--are at a premium.

Xmas said...

It isn't "Chads" and "Stacys". It's The Virgin vs. The Chad.

Though, it's funny because all of these weird internet subgroups all get mashed together and labelled misogynist.

MGTOW - Men Go Their Own Way - Women are just too much trouble to deal with so I'm just gonna play video games and watch porn, work my tech job and spend my money on the things I want. You don't get friendzoned if your not a friend!

Red Pill- Hypergamy - Women have an innate drive to mate with more successful males. They are instinctually always on the lookout for something better and they are prone to rationalize or spiritualize their instinctive actions. (e.g. "Eat, Pray, Love"). Men have to be aware of this instinct in order to understand the actions of women. These guys get pretty racist, sexist and creepy. But at the same time...

PUA - Pick up artists/Game - Beta guys using Alpha behavior to try to trick women into thinking they are more attractive than they actually are. Or, just guys that are trying to remove behaviors and actions that women find unattractive. PUA get a lot of heat for "negging", saying things that are emotionally hurtful to women to put them in a defensive stance in the conversation. A lot of cross-over with the Red Pill (with popular Red Pill guys also being PUA coaches and authors), but it's not the same.

Incel - Involuntary Celibate - Women hate me because I'm not super handsome. Incels find the beliefs of the other 3 groups to be wrong because they require the man's behavior and beliefs to change. Whereas Incels think they don't need to change, it's women that need to change.

Michael McNeil said...

With regard to “whom” and its supposed demise, Language Log blog a couple of years back pointed to a “large-scale statistical study of what correlates with numbers of responses to online dating ads” — finding among other things that men who use “whom” in their ads get 31% more responses from members of the opposite sex than those who do not!

As long as that remains true, I suspect that whom will survive.

(Another result: men who have tats get more responses, but women who say they do do not! Smile)

mockturtle said...

'Thou' and 'thee', you and ye are, like 'will and shall' definitive in their applications. People don't have to use these word but they should not be tossed out as redundant just because people can't be bothered to learn the distinctions.

jwl said...

I know a man with asperger's in his 50's and he has never had a girlfriend. He says he learned he was unloveable when he was in his 20's and tried to commit suicide.

In his 30's he decided to find a prostitute that was near his age and then see only her once or twice a month and see if he could develop a relationship. It worked, my asperger friend has seen two different prostitutes for about a decade each time and social relationship was formed, they would go on dates where each person paid their own way and then have sex afterwards, which my acquaintance paid for.

Michael McNeil said...

It’s probably a good idea to use “whom” correctly in that case, and the Language Log posting tries to provide guidance in this regard.

Bob Boyd said...

Radical Islam is also full of involuntary celibates who turn to violence.

Aunty Trump said...

" Whereas Incels think they don't need to change, it's women that need to change."

Accepting reality is another weakness people sometimes have a hard time with. Twelve Rules should be required reading. Right now our whole system of education has been hijacked by people who think our culture and politics should be torn down, razed and the rubble buried.

The Vault Dweller said...

With regard to success rate of men who use 'whom' in online dating I wonder if that it just limited to written usage or if it works in person as well. Using 'whom' in writing might make the man appear smarter, which is generally a plus. But if they use 'whom' in person it might make them seem snobbish. Which sounds more normal in conversational English?

"Who are you talking to?" or,
"To whom are you speaking?"

If the woman doesn't regularly hear the second it might come off as just slightly off-putting.

Aunty Trump said...

Women are headed in historically unexplored territory based on faith in certain beliefs absent evidence, of course there are going to be problems.

Big Mike said...

I think Xmas has a point. Assuming there is some truth in what Vox published (an often risky assumption) the incels have to start looking at women as real humans with whom one can share experiences and enjoy good times — not just as something you dump your sperm into.

Bay Area Guy said...

@Mockturtle,

"I suppose unattractive women could move to China, where women--any women!--are at a premium."

Hell, Yeah. We should export all the "Gender Studies Majors" at most universities to China. The ratio of attractive to non-attractive girls would go off the charts here, untold millions of nerdy Chinamen would be thrilled, and diplomatic tensions between East and West superpowers would greatly recede.

You could get the Nobel Prize for this, Mock!

Aunty Trump said...

Anyone who thinks that our culture and institutions are worth saving is a white supremacist or an Uncle Tom.

The Vault Dweller said...

"Hell, Yeah. We should export all the "Gender Studies Majors" at most universities to China. The ratio of attractive to non-attractive girls would go off the charts here, untold millions of nerdy Chinamen would be thrilled, and diplomatic tensions between East and West superpowers would greatly recede"

I don't know about the diplomatic success of that plan. My initial reaction was that it might be considered casus belli.

Mr Wibble said...

"I suppose unattractive women could move to China, where women--any women!--are at a premium."

Would the really do any better over there? It strikes me that for a culture with as much emphasis on homogeneity and as much cultural racism as the Chinese, having a foreign wife could be seen as worse than being celibate.

Ann Althouse said...

"Unattractive men who scorn unattractive women to pine sulkily for especially attractive ones are repugnant. There's nothing repugnant in someone simply being unattractive. It's the rejection of camaraderie and companionship to wallow in unfulfilled feelings of entitlement that's so off-putting."

I know! Just try for less attractive women until you find out what "league" your in. There's someone for everyone.

Aunty Trump said...

I wonder what the findings are for men who use semicolons; asking for a friend.

robother said...

Weaponized identity politics is a really bad meme, replicating itself in all sorts of ways the original "victims" never imagined. But like most viruses, once it reaches critical mass of infection, we may just have to wait for the cultural equivalent of the immune system to catch up.

Rick said...

incels have to start looking at women as real humans

There's no evidence they don't. They are just people who don't know how to connect and are casting about for justifications for their predicament.

Martin said...

I would like to think that we are approaching the end of identity politics, or at least that with "incels" now defining a group identity and then finding they are unjustly persecuted and plotting revenge on those they think torment them, there is nowhere left for identity politics to go.

But that would be too optimistic, I fear. The havoc and destruction of identity politics is nowhere near exhausting itself, and it will take tremendous effort and good fortune to avoid it destroying not only the USA but the West.

Unknown said...

Ignorance is Bliss said...
Incel is involuntarily celibate.

Is there a term for involuntarily promiscuous? Because that's what he has to look forward to in prison.

Another prison rape joke. Hilarious.

Aunty Trump said...

" I know! Just try for less attractive women until you find out what "league" your in. There's someone for everyone. "

It's not about sex, it's about power. If we were still living in bands, like we did for 99% of our evolution, this guy would have challenged for leadership and would have won, or been killed, or banished, but nowadays evolution never happened.

Unknown said...

Thank you, rhhardin for the "whom" comment. As a Grammar Nazi, it is one of my pet peeves. I was taught that if you ask the question, who(m) is being referred to, if the answer is "he, she or they", the correct usage is "who". If it's "him, her, or them", the correct usage is "whom". I do not know if this is 100% effective, but it has worked for me for decades. I could, of course, be way off base. In any case, I'll be eating steak.

Jupiter said...

Blogger The Vault Dweller said...
"I wonder if one of the side effects of feminism in society is that it has shaped men's personalities to make them less attractive to a large subset of women? I certainly think the reverse is partially true."

Women who once would have thought they needed a man now believe they do not. This has obviously lowered the demand for men, but not the supply.

Aunty Trump said...

Whomever is the one form that I use in casual speech, BTW.

rcocean said...

Getting rid of the whom/who distinction will be a giant step in the progress of Mankind.

After that's done, lets get rid of affect and just use effect. I'm tired of looking it up all the time.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

Holy cow, will the victimhood never end? Should unattractive women protest that pretty women get all the 'best' men? The issue, as implied in the article, is that unattractive [physically or economically] men often see themselves as somehow deserving of supermodels.

I blame online porn. Seriously, young guys grow up watching pornography and get totally unrealistic expectations regarding sex. And, as somebody upthread said, their real problem is that they are socially awkward and unwilling to do the work needed to rectify that. Also, they are stupid. There is also a movement called MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) which is similar, but proposes that men should abandon marriage and dating all together. If you listen to the videos they put on youtube you'll quickly realize their real problem with woman is not societal favoritism towards woman, as they claim, but that they're afraid of beautiful women and resent not being able to "get" one.

Ann Althouse said...

"I know! Just try for less attractive women until you find out what "league" your in."

That's "you're in"...

Freeman Hunt said...

They should all watch Marty.

Aunty Trump said...

One thing we could do as "decent and good" people is to ratchet down the negative energy that we put out about "betas" and "ugly chicks" to make it easier for some people to feel included, but we don't have a responsibility here! That once would have been considered kind and generous.

Aunty Trump said...

Maybe if we dumped less on "ugly chicks" guys would not feel like such losers dating women who don't cause neck injuries in men just walking down the street.

That's just stupid tim!

Achilles said...

Ann Althouse said...

"Unattractive men who scorn unattractive women to pine sulkily for especially attractive ones are repugnant. There's nothing repugnant in someone simply being unattractive. It's the rejection of camaraderie and companionship to wallow in unfulfilled feelings of entitlement that's so off-putting."

I know! Just try for less attractive women until you find out what "league" your in. There's someone for everyone.


I am in a masters program with a bunch of 20-25 year old people, most with advanced degrees. It is full of beta males on the one hand and Stacy's on the other.

I tell the guys to take what you can get now but to really start looking for girls in a year after they are making 6 figures. Rich software developers do just fine if they take showers and don't get grossly fat. I also tell them going to the gym would help but that gets less interest.

jwl said...

I came across this stat the other day, large groups of males not having regular sex is something that been happening for long time.
--------
Prof Baumeister - Is There Anything Good About Men?

Recent research using DNA analysis answered this question about two years ago. Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men.
I think this difference is the single most underappreciated fact about gender. To get that kind of difference, you had to have something like, throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced.

https://psy.fsu.edu/~baumeisterticelab/goodaboutmen.htm

mockturtle said...

They should all watch Marty.

Good movie. But these guys think they are in the market for trophy wives. Although we live in an 'everyone gets a trophy' era, it seldom extends to mating.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"incels have to start looking at women as real humans

There's no evidence they don't. They are just people who don't know how to connect and are casting about for justifications for their predicament."

Which the Internet is only too happy to provide. It's always been kind of an assumption that social media can make crazy people crazier, but I am now seeing, in my own extended family, a young person being led deeper into genuine madness by the (ostensibly) well-meaning support she's getting from people on social media. The affirmation of the ignorant is a dangerous thing.

mockturtle said...

Bay Area Guy sez: You could get the Nobel Prize for this, Mock!

Thanks, but the Nobel has lost it's luster since Bob Dylan won it.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Ann Althouse said...

I know! Just try for less attractive women until you find out what "league" your in. There's someone for everyone

That doesn't work for the Incel types. They build up the Stacys in their minds to be the ultimate validation to the world. Any one less than a Stacy and the world knows they are a losers and will laugh at them. That's how the Incel's think. Most seem be caught up in a whirlwind of immaturity and narcissism. I've known quite a few, it's a hazard of being in IT.

Freeman Hunt said...

To come home to someone who is happy to see you, appreciates you, cares for you and enjoys your caring for them, who loves you and sticks by you, who has engaging conversation with you, listens to you, supports you, stands with you, and yes, sleeps with you--those are the great pleasures of happy marriages.

There's too much focus on babeliciousness. Reject it!

Commercial culture is sex-drenched because of the arms race for quick attention grabbing. It's all biologically programmed attention grabbers now. Fear. Sex. Violence. Cheap sympathy. Bah!

The real world offers much better.

Wilbur said...

"The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done them but from the sense of their inadequacy and impotence."

Eric Hoffer

mockturtle said...

To come home to someone who is happy to see you, appreciates you, cares for you and enjoys your caring for them, who loves you and sticks by you, who has engaging conversation with you, listens to you, supports you, stands with you, and yes, sleeps with you--those are the great pleasures of happy marriages.

Sounds like a dog would fill the bill for the most part.

Bay Area Guy said...

" I know! Just try for less attractive women until you find out what "league" your in. There's someone for everyone."

Exactly. If you're a nerdy dude -- go find some nerdy gal. If you're fat, go find a fat chick. If you wear thick bifocals, find a gal with thick bifocals.

All this stuff was known decades ago, before the sexual revolution, before internet porn, before tinder and grinder.

So, if you write for Vox, but have: (a) never thrown or caught a touchdown pass, (b) never been in a fistfight and (c) never gotten a blow job in the back seat of gas-guzzling, American car, well, there's still hope for you!

Go find a nerdy biochemistry major -- and treat her real nice. Good things may blossom.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

mockturtle said...
Thanks, but the Nobel has lost it's luster since Bob Dylan won it.


This is the kind of commenting that we need more of.

YoungHegelian said...

The problems don't arise from believing that women are crazed. The problem comes from believing that men are any saner.

What could possibly be more primal & irrational than our sexual urges? On this both the traditional religious faiths & many secularists (e.g. Freud) agree. Gone, however, are not only the social strictures that held such urges in check, but also the rigorous social training in "comportment" that took the misfits at the margins & taught them how to fit in.

A little forgiveness of the "failings" both of ourselves & others goes a long way here. But forgiveness, too, is a social virtue that needs to be taught in a structured setting from an early age.

FullMoon said...

Red Pill- Hypergamy - Women have an innate drive to mate with more successful males. They are instinctually always on the lookout for something better and they are prone to rationalize or spiritualize their instinctive actions. (e.g. "Eat, Pray, Love"). Men have to be aware of this instinct in order to understand the actions of women. These guys get pretty racist, sexist and creepy.

The Toothless Revolutionary said...

I take the red pill every day on gender and identity politics. It didn't take me long into college and then the work world to realize that American women hate their bodies and will take that out on American men and that the employers seem to think that protecting this sentiment/behavior is one of their most important missions.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Freeman's post To come home to someone who is happy to see you, appreciates you, cares for you and enjoys your caring for them, who loves you and sticks by you, who has engaging conversation with you, listens to you, supports you, stands with you, and yes, sleeps with you--those are the great pleasures of happy marriages. reminded me of one of my favorite songs. The lyrics of which are very apropos to the topic at hand.

Someone to Watch Over Me.

There is somebody
I'm longing to see
I hope that she
Turns out to be
Someone who'll watch over me
I'm a little lamb
Who's lost in the wood
I know I could
Always be good
To one who'll watch over me
Although she may not be the girl
Some men think of
As pretty
To my heart
She carries the key

Won't you tell her please
To put on some speed
Follow my lead
Oh, how I need
Someone to watch over me

Focusing on the outer characteristics, physical beauty of the "Stacy or Chad" figures of desire instead of the inner soul of the person is foolish and setting yourself up for failure. Shortsighted and self destructive.

I don't feel sorry for the Incels at all. Besides being a stupid made up name they are stupid people who are harming themselves.

Bruce Hayden said...

(Women w/o men)
“Without power and central heating, without cars and computers, without ships and trains and airplanes, without most pharmaceuticals and forms of surgery, without classical music and the means to listen to it: enjoy!”

It’s worse than that. Men make more money than women, accumulate more, etc. And women tend to end up with it. I am seeing an interesting dynamic right now, as my generation is entering retirement: guys who never really had a woman, or at least for the last 40 or so years, but have plenty of money, and women who are facing living on dog food. Thinking of a couple guys I know pretty well. Both multimillionaires. One with two houses, and three cars, fully paid for. No girlfriend for 40 years, but kept trying until he was maybe 40. And some women who are hoping for help from their kids. One in particular had 5 kids out of wedlock, no income above the table, so no social security. Still working, as she nears 70, so she can afford her apartment, but for how much longer? Yes, I am generalizing from incidents to the general, but I can’t help believing that a lot of these people would have been much happier in their old age, if they had married. If the women had settled for betas, and not insisted on alphas, that they couldn’t keep, if they even managed to snag one for a couple nights, or a kid or two. And if the Incels had not insisted on Stacey’s, instead of settling for what they couldn’t have, or at least keep.

Aunty Trump said...

It says a lot about you whether you think kindness and generosity come from strength and security or weakness and fear.

Morkoth4682 said...

MikeR said...
Dunno. I was kind of a loser like that in college. I don't think I would have joined a special group of losers.
Anyhow, it isn't the muscles, it's the attitude. There are groups that train you in attitude. I think that might work better than a group that trains you to be an angry loser.

4/26/18, 9:05 AM

-----------------

Yeah... similar thing here... Women used to really intimidate me... Whenever I was around a pretty girl, my anxiety would spike and I'd become all twitchy, trying to think of something clever to say, and would usually end up getting that look like, "Ugh, get away from me you freak...", which would just re-enforce the anxiety feedback loop...

For a lot of years I thought it was that it was because I was a dork w/ glasses who was not very tall or muscular or attractive and that I would never get "that kind of girl"... I eventually "settled" on someone that I wasn't really in-love with, and we were married for 16yrs before getting divorced...

When I started dating again afterwards, it was a completely different experience... Using Tinder and other dating apps, I was able to talk to girls online before meeting them in person, and learned how to have a normal conversation without all the anxiety...

I learned to not be intimidated by women and I grew more confident as I became more comfortable with myself... I learned to not take it personally when things didn't work out, but instead focus on just trying to have fun, try new things and go on some adventures... During that time I met and had liaisons with numerous beautiful women, who I would never have even dared to talk to when I was younger... And over time I realized its not so much about looks (at least not for normal women), but about attitude, aptitude, confidence and being able to read the non-verbal cues / signals that make-up so much of female communication...

Finally, after about a year of serial dating, I found the girl who was the perfect "fit" for me... And we've been together ever since...

Yancey Ward said...

Well, the corrosive power of envy is a new-fangled idea. Glad to see the geniuses at Vox are on the job.

Yancey Ward said...

"What are you willing to kill over?"

"Whadda you got?"

Paddy O said...

when we ontologize sexual orientation, everyone's experiences must be categorized and pathologized accordingly.

Freud is back, and this time he's angry!

Rick said...

Glad to see the geniuses at Vox are on the job.

This article is by the guy who criticized Israel for impeding traffic on the bridge between Gaza and the West Bank.

Paddy O said...

Another thought, is we define personhood socially according to sexual expression, than those who do not have (for whatever reason) sexual expression are considered less than human. I blame popular media for the alienating and dehumanizing way they are defining people.

JAORE said...

NOW has blood on their hands!

Xmas said...

@FullMoon,

I thought I was clarifying that bit about Red Pill guys being racist, sexist and creepy by posting a link about Hugh Hefner and the playboy bunnies he was sleeping with when he was 90. Red Pill people say some pretty terrible things about men and women and their behavior. But those things they say are often backed by real world studies or well publicized anecdotes that match their beliefs.

If you want to get into your personal observations regarding Institutional Patriarchy and how it hurts women in the classroom and workplace, I'm more than happy to discuss it. Personally, I find that certain branches of Feminism mirror the MGTOW view of the world. If men could simply stop viewing women as sexual beings, then women would be free to pursue the life and careers of their dreams. It's the male gaze that oppresses women and keeps them away from the levers of power.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Dunno. I was kind of a loser like that in college. I don't think I would have joined a special group of losers.
Anyhow, it isn't the muscles, it's the attitude. There are groups that train you in attitude. I think that might work better than a group that trains you to be an angry loser.”

Essentially, the PUA group mentioned above. Guy who had the next office for awhile was really into that sort of thing. And it does seem to work - a lot of women react fairly emotionally to guys (not saying that guys don’t do the same, because many do). Funny thing to me is that the PUA Training makes betas appear to be alphas to women - but sexual success is one key to being an alpha so, in the end, might it be training to actually be what they pretend to be?

As for muscles - the guy who I knew in college who was getting laid by the most women was dumpy and a bit overweight. He was funny, and got a reputation for having good hands, for giving good massages. And, I know some former college football players who had little success in college. Much of it is attitude. I got lucky - I was seduced when I was a freshman in college by a high school senior, in a college where most of the kids entered as virgins. So, I had a year or two edge on most of the other guys there. Then, the next year I got into a long term relationship where I was able to learn a lot about female sexuality. Sex was fairly easy after that - but probably because I have a type (straight A type A nerds who inevitably have less relationship and sexual experience than I). Still, I am thankful that I got lucky freshman year in college. Guys I know who had more social success in high school (e.g. had prom dates), earned more money, had more muscles, etc, didn’t have that luck, and never married, or did so briefly. Much of it was attitude.

ALP said...

Achilles:
"I also tell them going to the gym would help but that gets less interest."

Another irritating quality of this group of men: they expect to attract women who put some effort into their appearance while doing nothing themselves while clearly looking like they need to. I once knew a guy in his late 20's that had never dated. His hygiene was awful: terrible teeth due to lack of brushing (missing teeth, bad breath), only washed his hair 2x a month when it was glommed to head with excess oil, and needed a better deodorant or more frequent showers. I mean, he made being around him unpleasant for everyone, not just women.

One day he asked me what he could do to make himself a more attractive to women. I said: "Cleaning yourself up with better self care would be a start". A friend and I took some time to lay out a simple way to make himself more attractive in general, to everyone. Sometimes I wonder if it is related to anorexia - total misalignment in how you perceive yourself, like a woman with anorexia.

Did he do anything? NO! Nothing. What kind of delusion do you have to develop to let yourself go that bad and not get a clue?

Xmas said...

"Unattractive men who scorn unattractive women to pine sulkily for especially attractive ones are repugnant. There's nothing repugnant in someone simply being unattractive."


@FreemanHunt

You don't get it. Unattractive women are scorning the unattractive men, not the other way around. The mildly unattractive women in their 20s are dolling themselves up, going out to bars, and getting pumped and dumped by moderately attractive men. This is giving moderately unattractive women unrealistic expectations, not the moderately unattractive men. The incels are angry because the girl that just right for him is going out every Saturday night and giving blowjobs to a Mike Sorrentino-clone in the alley behind the bar. Then on Monday she's complaining to the incel about how she can't find a nice guy like him.

Ken B said...

jwl, thanks for the Slate Star Codex link. Very good. As usual, I wish there was a Scott Alexander Compressor.

Jonathan Graehl said...

Asking for the old monogamy cartel against female sexual freedom is wrong ... yet redistribution of wealth is okay.

Jonathan Graehl said...

(to be less opaque: I mean no one seems to care about the losers in the sexual marketplace like they do about losers in the financial one)

Inga...Allie Oop said...

Fake news, he’s really a Muslim.

Sarc

Jonathan Graehl said...

anyway, grooming and exercise and game seem like better prescriptions than about-facing the societal ship

FIDO said...

Feh,

Everyone (well, I haven't read EVERY response) is getting it wrong. This isn't a 'victim' group. It was a) about men and b) from Vox.

It is a created ENEMY group!

This is a reaction to MGTOW, which is Men Going Their Own Way.

You have an entire tribe or interest group of men who have decided that between the demonizing, the horrors of divorce court, having kids held hostage, and having half their stuff stolen that they are opting out of the marriage game...and they are not particularly polite to women when they discuss the matter either! 'Gold Digging Whores' is as good a summary as any.

Incels are, in many ways, corollaries to Feminists: old, fat lesbians who, out of the gate, have lost the mating game by dint of temperament, looks, or health problems.

Men in generally desperately try to be incredibly nice and generous...until they aren't. That is ugly.

Feminists start slamming men for having preferences about the time they trade pampers for panties.

The only reason that 'incels' are supposed to be scary is that Feminists aren't as strong as men because boy howdy do they seem to love their Female privilege of assaulting men in public. Just check youtube for horribly acting women.

See Collen Campbell and Anjali Ramkisson for examples. Young, hot and full of snot.

Then again, these aren't feminists per se since they don't HAVE to be Feminists, They won the mating game. They are just violent entitled women.



This is simply Vox trying to gin up scare tactics and demonize men by making a scary group.


Ken B said...

Let's not forget, Vox has nothing. He didn’t kill just women, he has made no statement, there is no psychological assessment, there was more going on in his life than virginity (he washed out of the armed forces for example), and has given no interviews. But Vox and Althouse JUST KNOW.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“Sounds like a dog would fill the bill for the most part.”

Rhhardin always has a female dogs.

YoungHegelian said...

@Jonathan,

to be less opaque: I mean no one seems to care about the losers in the sexual marketplace like they do about losers in the financial one)

What you say is very true. I remember years ago a satirical column in National Lampoon calling for the nationalization of sexual resources. The article trotted out a laundry list of rock stars & athletes who had consumed far more than their share.

Strangely enough, if you look at the voters who back governmental care for the financial losers, they tend to be majority female. I think many of those same voters see themselves as possible recipients of the redistributive largess. But, I believe they'd see themselves as victims of any attempt to expropriate sexual favors to the struggling masses.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

For those who doubt Vox’s reporting.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/24/incel-sexual-frustration-rebellion-at-center-toronto-attack.html

“The 25-year-old man accused of mowing down pedestrians in Toronto with a van, killing 10 people and injuring 15 more, reportedly warned of an “Incel Rebellion” on Facebook before the attack.

A spokesperson for the social media company confirmed suspect Alek Minassian’s post that praised mass killer Elliot Rodger to The Globe and Mail. Rodger was a 22-year-old man who killed six people in a 2014 vehicle and shooting rampage in California before killing himself. Rodger left behind a manifesto, in which he reportedly called himself an “incel” and decried women for not dating him.

The term “incel” means “involuntarily celibate.” It existed as a Reddit message board for some time until it was banned for encouraging violence, including rape against women.”

Freeman Hunt said...

"The mildly unattractive women in their 20s are dolling themselves up, going out to bars, and getting pumped and dumped by moderately attractive men."

Why do they want to go out with these women who sound immature and not at all ready for real relationships? There are other women not doing that.

Balfegor said...

Re: Inga:

For those who doubt Vox’s reporting.

I don't think anyone here is doubting the "Incel" phenomenon -- Vox is just kind of suspect as a source, the same way any excessively biased source would be. Like Breitbart, they do report real news. But like Breitbart you, uh, you'd probably want to check that with another news source with opposing biases first. Sort of like what you've done here with Fox News.

FullMoon said...

Inga says

The term “incel” means “involuntarily celibate.” It existed as a Reddit message board for some time until it was banned for encouraging violence, including rape against women.”

4/26/18, 1:34 PM


So, govt shuts down Craigslist Personals and Backpage. All of a sudden, horny loser mows down a bunch of innocents.
Unintended consequences.

Ima go out on a limb and suggest these guys are not your average man who cannot get a date. These are the guys who get a date and expect to get a bj or get fucked for the price of coffee and cake.
Not to mention, incel or not, gotta be crazy to murder for no profit.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Inga...Allie Oop said...

“Vox is just kind of suspect as a source, the same way any excessively biased source would be. Like Breitbart, they do report real news. But like Breitbart you, uh, you'd probably want to check that with another news source with opposing biases first. Sort of like what you've done here with Fox News.”

Yet Althouse links to them and doesn’t link to Breitbart (unless I’m mistaken), so I suspect they aren’t on par with each other as being excessively biased.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
langford peel said...

I wish Chuck would comment.

He surely could give us some insight into living as an incel.

Kyzer SoSay said...

"Oh, and three for her, one for me, minimum."

Unless she's been getting on your nerves. Then you get yours and leave it at that, and leave her guessing. She knows you CAN, but wonders why you WOULDN'T.

Instant attitude adjustment.

Women have their ways too, once you know what to look for.

Krumhorn said...

Rhhardin, I contend that women can live without men more easily than men without women.

Guys will generally do just fine on their own.....until they discover that there is no one to go to the fridge to get them a beer.

Women will too.....until they look around and can’t find anyone who adores them.

- Krumhorn

Ken B said...

Inga
What evidence is there he mowed down men and women because of the incel stuff? There is none. Vox though just baldly asserts that is the reason. That is speculation not fact. Speculation used to advance a political agenda from those unwilling to wait for facts. That’s pretty much the epitome of unreliable.

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Balfegor said...

Re: Inga:

Yet Althouse links to them and doesn’t link to Breitbart (unless I’m mistaken), so I suspect they aren’t on par with each other as being excessively biased.

First, however much I like her blog, I'm not going to outsource my view of bias to her.

Second, sure she does.

n.n said...

So, "incel" is a transgender spectrum disorder. One that notably lacks a sexual orientation. You're a guy. She's a girl. Figure out what makes each other tick. Opening abortion fields is probably the wrong Choice. Although, there are female chauvinists who may welcome your partnership.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...


Probably sports also.

4/26/18, 9:15 AM

rhardin, pro athletes are not known for their celibacy.

Sheridan said...

I wonder how "incels" would have fared in the days of arranged marriages? Do "Incels" exist in current-day cultures that still practice arranged marriages? There's something vaguely biblical about an "Incel" protesting "Chads" and "Stacy's". Old Testament stuff perhaps?

Balfegor said...

Re: Ken B:

Inga
What evidence is there he mowed down men and women because of the incel stuff? There is none. Vox though just baldly asserts that is the reason. That is speculation not fact. Speculation used to advance a political agenda from those unwilling to wait for facts. That’s pretty much the epitome of unreliable.
.

The evidence may not be dispositive, but it's highly suggestive, as reported. To wit, he apparently posted on Facebook, shortly before he started running people over:

The Incel Rebellion has already begun!
We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys!
All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!


Elliot Rodger is the Californian who murdered a bunch of people, and explained via Youtube that he wanted to punish women for rejecting him and sexually active men for having sex.

So, you know, not dispositive. But if you heard a Muslim man cried Allahu Akbar while running over a bunch of people, and then discovered that his Facebook page was full of Islamic extremist nonsense, it would probably not be unfair to infer a causal link between his religious beliefs and his murder spree.

Same here.

Bilwick said...

There was a book (I write "was" because I think it's out of print now, probably because it didn't fit into Yuppie Careerism of the late Seventies and Eighties*) that as I recall helped me keep my head on straight for most of the time; and it's message seems to me to apply here. It was called BEYOND WINNING AND LOSING. I forget who wrote it but as I recall he had a somewhat Zen approach to life, without being hippy-dippy-ish. It's main thesis was not to judge yourself against the people society holds up to be "winners" and "losers." (Most of the people I meet who seem like society's "winners" have tended to be shallow jackasses.) In short, not to let society's standards rule you.

As I get older I see that this approach may have resonated with me because I did not go to one of those high schools I see in movies and television, where the schools have an elite of Ken-and-Barbie jocks and cheerleaders. For one thing, it was an all-male Catholic boys school, so no cheerleaders to vie for; and with the schools heavy emphasis on liberal arts (i.e., education for gentlemen) jocks were not worshipped. (Neither were they denigrated.) The scenario of the "Alpha Male" jocks beating up the nerdy bookworms simply did not apply. Many of the Christian Brothers who ran the school practiced what was once called "Muscular Christianity" and would have come down hard on any such shenanigans. A witty, cutting remark was often considered as devastating as a punch in the nose. So I wasn't brought up in that kind of fang-and-claw environment and never saw what was so great about the kind of people I would later find were "winners" I should look up to, and hate myself for not being.






*I read it circa 1970.

Sal said...

"I know! Just try for less attractive women until you find out what "league" your in."

And women who may not be attractive standing up often look pretty good when on their back.

Sheridan said...

Shorter version - there is nothing new under the sun especially in regards to how human beings think and feel and behave. What has changed in the last three hundred years is the speed with which human thoughts are communicated to large audiences. Question - could Christianity have survived today's 24-hour news cycle?

Balfegor said...

Re: Sheridan:

I wonder how "incels" would have fared in the days of arranged marriages? Do "Incels" exist in current-day cultures that still practice arranged marriages? There's something vaguely biblical about an "Incel" protesting "Chads" and "Stacy's". Old Testament stuff perhaps?

I guess I would be curious how arranged marriages worked (or even work today) in groups with low status and low wealth. In advance of arranged marriage meetings today, there's obsessive focus on who your parents are and what they do, what your job is, what your educational history is, and things like that. And there's concern about dowries and bride-prices and the exchange of gifts between the families and all that. I mean, those play a role in love matches too, but it's all much more up-front in discussing an arranged marriage. I have difficulty envisioning what those discussions would look like for people with neither wealth nor status.

If they had better outcomes, I would guess that would have little to do with their sexual outcomes, and more to do with the way that societies which practice arranged marriage typically have much tighter, more structured familial networks, where it would be harder to end up feeling completely isolated and alone the way many of these people do.

There's a sort of person who will find navigating those kinds of familial relationships frustrating and stifling. I admit even I sometimes rankle at having to defer to my elders: my elders had a big discussion amongst themselves, the upshot of which was that they made my take down some mirrors I had hanging on the "wrong" wall. After they left, I put them back up. And i know there are people who rankle at continually being compared to their cousins, or their uncles, or the second cousin once removed's in-laws or whatever. I can imagine family environments that people find so smothering that they blow up. But nevertheless, I think that kind of environment can help keep people socialised.

But these incels -- are they coming from the kinds of families that could provide that kind of socialisation and support? I don't think so.

Michael K said...

And women who may not be attractive standing up often look pretty good when on their back.

Especially after 2 AM and a dozen beers.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“First, however much I like her blog, I'm not going to outsource my view of bias to her.”

And neither do I, however, I trust her to be less biased than many of her conservative commenters.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Inga...Allie Oop said...

“Yet you want to entrust your childrens' lives to the French. No thanks.”

Trump sure did love the way the French put on a military parade though, so much so that he wants to emulate them.

Inga...Allie Oop said...

“I think a tremendous thing for France and for the spirit of France and people don’t know what great warriors they are in France, but when you see that and you see all the victories, it was a tremendous thing.”

Donald Trump

Earnest Prole said...

I don’t know what Mr. Incel Drypecker is so upset about. As recently as 8,000 years ago, seventeen women reproduced for every one man. We’ve come a long way, baby!

buwaya said...

"Trump sure did love the way the French put on a military parade though, so much so that he wants to emulate them."

The French Army was generally the model for the US Army, its structure, organization, and many of its procedures and customs. Of course it developed its own culture and etc., but the US copied a great deal from France well into the 20th century.

Military parades were indeed, traditionally, something that the US copied from France. This is not new at all. The US Fourth of July celebrations are also copied from France.

FIDO said...

One thing to remember.

One of the dating sites had a 'appearance' grading exercise of the various members of the opposite gender.

For men, the arrangement of females was close to a bell curve.

For the women, 80% of the men were 'below average' in appearance.

Which may suggest something.

FIDO said...

Dalits marry Dalits.

Incels marry incels. In India, almost EVERYONE gets married. Even that guy with the snaggle teeth. Even that morbidly obese woman.

It's called 'arranged' for a reason.

FIDO said...

So that being said: having a free mating market makes for a far prettier race.

So let's get them sex robots tinkered up so them incel men have something to bang and we can have our roads back.

Incel women can join feminism and buy some Labadors and a hot tub.

Jason said...

Roger Sweeny: ""Whom" should go the way of "thou."

Just whom the hell do you think you are?

tcrosse said...

Roger Sweeny: ""Whom" should go the way of "thou."

Him and me think so. Us both do.

Bill Peschel said...

We've moved away from why women love murderers (yes, I'm exaggerating), but I still want to drop this link to Mark Twain's "Lionizing Murderers," to show it ain't a new thang.

Bill Peschel said...

Of course, it would help if I give the link too:

https://americanliterature.com/author/mark-twain/short-story/lionizing-murderers

Char Char Binks said...

It's a seller's market.

A major part of the problem for this monobrowed Armenian-Canadian Miniassian, Elliot Rodgers, and Chris Harper-Mercer, et al, is that society degrades them. It used to be a straight man could be called a "life-long bachelor" without anyone thinking ill of him. He could maybe come into money, or otherwise become attractive, and get a wife. Now it's considered the most perverse of "sexual orientations", if that's what it is. Men are expected to be free-wheeling sexual adventurers, and if they're not, they're damaged goods, or creepy weirdos, or losers no matter how you look at it.

It's mostly about the stigma, I think. Not that these men don't want sex, but what they crave is acceptance by a society that will never accept them. Some of them will learn now to attract women, how to become alpha, or at least adorkably beta. Some will learn how to make a lot of money and suddenly discover that they have irresistible personalities and a strange draw for beautiful women, but there will be a few who seek revenge on the world that shuns them.

Char Char Binks said...

"No every mass killer can be a Tsarnaev, but there's a woman out there for every homicidal maniac."

Minassian may find himself suddenly getting a lot of female attention. Before, he was a loser, but now he's famous, and chicks dig that.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said...I don't think they think that. They think they are permanently excluded from the good life believed in by their culture and so they decide the only way to go is destruction.

Yes. This understanding extends to many things. It's a bit of a drive to "this is how you got Trump," but it's on the same road.

People who confidently assert that structural racism/sexism/homophobia/etc is behind every problem or neurosis or dysfunction in this or that social group should probably be less inclined to sniff at or mock another group's assertion of being the victim of similar or analogous discrimination--even when the group in question is me who are not sexually successful. But, you know: the out group is the out group, so mockery it is.

Bob Loblaw said...

This ideology was new to me. Always new radical groups wanting to kill people.

It's not an ideology. It's just a bunch of frustrated guys commiserating with each other on the internet. Those guys have always existed; it's just that now they're hammering away on computer keys instead of getting drunk at the local bar.

And yeah, every once in awhile the frustration gets to be too much for someone who wasn't quite right to start with, and he lashes out. But this isn't a new thing either.

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