"I was trying to explain to her that I was trying to get directions to Rochester High [School]. And she kept yelling at me. Then the guy came downstairs, and he grabbed the gun, I saw it and started to run. And that's when I heard the gunshot."
Said the black 14-year-old boy quoted in "Black teen misses bus, gets shot at after asking for directions in Rochester Hills."
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212 comments:
1 – 200 of 212 Newer› Newest»Althouse are you in Michigan right now? I just saw this story on tv, moments before you posted it.
You're probably wondering when you can get together with me for a large mug of delicious hot coffee to discuss Scott Adams' latest Periscope...
lol!
Maybe she thought he was a school shooter? In all seriousness, this is the problem with low trust societies and non-local schooling. If his school was in his neighborhood this woman would have seen the kid around most likely and also he wouldn't have to ask for directions halfway into a (doesn't say how long) walk to school. That said, people are too trigger happy. Who shoots at someone who has already complied with the demand to get off one's property?
Why are you arguing with a frightened woman?
Go to the next house.
I am betting there is another side to this story.
“Who shoots at someone who has already complied with the demand to get off one's property?“
You are taking a story from the media at face value in a post where you mention low trust society.
Wheels should be turning in people’s heads right now.
I'm glad there's video of the encounter. If it happened as described in the linked story then this is clearly attempted murder.
Maybe the fact that he had their television under his arm had something to do with it.
If you're really that frightened, don't answer the door. You might be afraid that not answering would motivate the person to break in, thinking the house is unoccupied, but if you've got a gun and are ready to shoot the intruder, just don't answer the door and see if there is a break in.
I observe that we don't know if the teenager is telling the truth, and we don't have the full story, but as it is, it is so highly inflammatory.
@Chuck I hate to tell you but news crosses state lines pretty easily these days. Your question should be when does a local story go national. It's damned easy to see the elements of virality here.
So, without his phone, he didn't know the route to his own school? That could be true, I guess, because he's probably used to looking at his phone while riding to school rather than looking out the window. Sad. This in no way excuses the violence.
Some robbers knock on a door to determine whether or not someone is home. If someone answers the door the perp pretends to ask for directions. If not, they break in. So I also see where she might have been suspicious.
Was he wearing a hoodie and eating Skittles while casing the neighborhood? Did he just rob a convience store? Is this another bullshit SJW media narrative?
You know it is.
"And that's when I heard the gunshot,"..."I found out later the only reason [the man] missed is because he forgot to take the safety off."
I assume it was a situation where he tried to pull the trigger, realized the safety was on, turned it off, then took a shot but the kid was too far away by then?
Oakland County Sheriff Mike Bouchard is a Republican, and a playa in Party politics. He may be the next County Executive.
Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica Cooper is a Democrat, not a playa, a bit of a functionary who parlayed some name recognition as a former Circuit Judge into an election to the Prosecutor's Office.
They will definitely charge the shooter with a felony, and he will not have much of a defense. He'll be a guest of our state for several years.
The funny thing (it can be funny because nobody got hurt) is a kid who needs a smart phone with GPS to walk to school after missing a bus. Huh? You need Google Maps to find your way to school along a route you've been taking all year?
Well no gun in our house, so the kid is safe. That said in my upper middle class neighborhood on hillside suburb, we've had more than a few in home invasion style assaults, break ins, theft form parked cars etc over the years. There's good freeway access in and out of the neighborhood, and that makes us a target. I can understand a woman being frightened of something unknown at her door.
"And that's when I heard the gunshot,"..."I found out later the only reason [the man] missed is because he forgot to take the safety off."
Safeties don’t make a gun miss.
That is not how guns work.
Ann Althouse said...
@Chuck I hate to tell you but news crosses state lines pretty easily these days. Your question should be when does a local story go national. It's damned easy to see the elements of virality here.
You're right of course! All of these #BlackLivesMatter-style incidents involving gunshots and teens who look like they could be Barack Obama's son seem to travel at the speed of light.
I apologize for that diversion, but I literally went to the coffee shop in our building within this hour and that story was playing on the shop's tv as I was in line. (I am just now realizing that it may have run earlier, and was being re-run.)
Maybe. I mean if you trying to break into someone's house and got shot at, wouldn't you make up this kind of story?
But who knows. In any case, you can't shoot at a fleeing criminal Unless you're the police.
Chuck demonstrates why this is a bullshit story. If the kid had a phone he had no reason to trespass. It is indeed likely that he was testing to see if anyone was home before he broke in.
Does he have a juvenile record?
Or was he a pure innocent on his way to apply for college like Michael Brown?
There is (or was) the Joe Biden solution available. You stand on the balcony and fire a twelve gauge shotgun into the air. Silly husband didn't have a twelve gauge to hand.
If the facts as reported are true the homeowner is an ass and a felon who deserves time in prison.
That said I would never trust the initial reporting but one thing that stood out to me is why in the world would a 14 year old need directions to a school he would have been driven to and from every day for months? It's possible of course he was a recent transfer but are teenagers that clueless? I could walk to my quite distant school with my eyes closed by the time I was 6.
Don't trust a word that e social justice warrior media tells you.
As RH says it is soap opera bullshit to excite liberal old white ladies like Althouse.
How about STOP knocking repeatedly on the door of people who
1. You don't know who they are
2. Are yelling at you to stop and go away.
AND take some other actions:
3. Go away
4. Move on to other places to get directions
5. Go home since you are already late and it probably isn't the first time anyway.
You do know the way to your house at least? right.
Play stupid games....win stupid prizes.
Its a good rule to never open the door for strangers. I'm sure there are exceptions, but we don't even answer calls from people we don't know.
I suppose they could be warning you about an alien spaceship that just landed or want to give a million dollars - but I doubt it.
Does he have a juvenile record?
Or was he a pure innocent on his way to apply for college like Michael Brown?
Like the victim in Bonfire of the Vanities he is probably an honor student.
"I found out later the only reason [the man] missed is because he forgot to take the safety off."
That makes sense, I suppose, almost as much sense as a kid older than 6 who doesn't know how to walk to his school.
"Black teen misses bus, gets shot at after asking for directions in Rochester Hills"
Compare that headline to these mysterious "teens":
"BART takeover robbery: 40 to 60 teens swarm train, hold up riders"
"Police: Dozens of teens involved in fight at Hanes Mall in Winston-Salem"
Gotta love them MSM.
I predict (~ 60-70%) that the guy they arrested was black since they didn't say otherwise.
I wonder if he's another Trayvon Martin - just a small child out for some tea and skittles.
Rochester Hills Michigan....outskirts of Detroit. Population 70K plus. I would be armed and wary too.
They don't know you are 14. You can be any age. You are pounding on their door. You won't stop.
Geeze kid. Get directions from someone else. Situational awareness...it is a thing.
If you take this story as true from the teen's description, I have some choice lots to sell you in Okeechobee Acres...
Wife shouting someone is breaking in?
Grab your gun.
Suspect runs away.
Put away your gun and call the cops.
>>"I got to the house, and I knocked on the lady's door. Then she started yelling at me and she was like, 'Why are you trying to break into my house?'"
That's not a question most people would ask somebody just knocking on their door. "The lady" probably had a reason she asked him that question.
"I have some choice lots to sell you in Okeechobee Acres..."
The police have some sort of security thing on their doorbell that recorded the interaction.
Dust Bunny: Rochester isn't on the "outskirts" of Detroit. Rochester is the better part of an hour's drive from downtown Detroit. In between the area of the shooting and the sketchy parts of Detroit, are miles of suburbs. Royal Oak, Warren, Sterling Heights, Troy...
The linked article sounds hinky -
"A woman who lived in the house called the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office to report a man had been trying to break into their house and her husband had chased him off with a shotgun. Deputies determined the 58-year-old husband had fired one blast from a 12-gauge shotgun."
Man oh man the racists assumptions are strong in the Althouse comments today.
Rochester isn't on the "outskirts" of Detroit. Rochester is the better part of an hour's drive from downtown Detroit
Ok. I only "Googled" it and that was the description.
"Geeze kid. Get directions from someone else. Situational awareness...it is a thing."
14 year olds can be too young & trusting of adults.
Ann Althouse said...
If you're really that frightened, don't answer the door. You might be afraid that not answering would motivate the person to break in, thinking the house is unoccupied, but if you've got a gun and are ready to shoot the intruder, just don't answer the door and see if there is a break in.
The assumption that people think about these things ahead of time or act calmly and clearly when scared is a bad assumption.
I observe that we don't know if the teenager is telling the truth, and we don't have the full story, but as it is, it is so highly inflammatory.
You mean the media may have an agenda in which stories it magnifies and reports?
Heresy!
I know. Old white lady assumes black thug is innocent.
Racist.
The smart doorbell recorded a video of the entire thing. I'm wondering, if there was a working doorbell, whey didn't he ring it instead of knocking on the door? It's not something to shoot at someone over, but it's still weird.
Retired firemen aren't the type of people that I would expect to jump to conclusions and over-react.
The police have video:
http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-news/black-teen-misses-bus-gets-shot-at-after-asking-for-directions-in-rochester-hills
Lisa was at work when she got the call. She says her husband is deployed in Syria, so she was assuming she was getting a call about him until she realized they were calling about Brennan. She dropped everything and immediately went to the substation to be with her son.
That's where investigators told her the family's Ring doorbell recorded the encounter. Investigators watched the video with Brennan and his mom. She says the video confirmed their suspicions.
David said...
Man oh man the racists assumptions are strong in the Althouse comments today.
It is racist to assume the media is lying and misreporting the facts?
Just look at the "Russian Collusion" lie they have been pushing for over a year now.
It should just be assumed the MSM is lying.
Another horrible outcome caused by forced busing.
Why not let our little brown brother be happy in a safe space in his own community?
"It is just absurd that this happened," says Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard. "I feel terrible for the young man; I feel terrible for the mom and the anxiety that they had to go through. We are going to ask for every charge permissible for this guy, who stepped up and fired a shotgun because someone knocked on his door."
Brouchard should seek charges. And he should also seek charges when cops do much worse harm and blow people away without objective, reasonable justification.
langford peel said...
Chuck demonstrates why this is a bullshit story. If the kid had a phone he had no reason to trespass. It is indeed likely that he was testing to see if anyone was home before he broke in.
What are you talking about? In this story, the kid did not have his phone. He said he would not have needed to stop and ask for directions if he had his phone. (If memory serves me, I think the kid said that his mom had taken away his cellphone/privileges. Prolly for staying up too late, reading the Althouse blog and Scott Adams' Periscopes on the phone, and then getting up too late for the school bus.)
14 year olds can be too young & trusting of adults.
Oh Puuuleeeze.
Fourteen year old people are old enough to be aware of their situations. If not they should not be allowed out alone.
Your situation is suspicious. First you are on the streets during school hours. You don't live in the neighborhood. You are pounding on some stranger's door. You are being yelled at. You are warned. You are told to leave.
You don't do it (leave) Not doing it and giving the homeowner time to get his/her weapon....isn't too trusting. It is stupid or malicious. Maybe both. I don't care what color you are. Black White Jehovah's Witness :-D......stupid is as stupid does.
He is lucky he wasn't really shot. Learn from your mistakes dummy!
"The police have video:"
There was no video at that link.
It is Fox News also. Why do the leftists here suddenly have such trust in fox news?
There will be an investigation.
In the mean time I expect the leftists to call everyone they disagree with racist for actually, you know, wanting to see the results of the investigation.
This is also going to be used to disarm Americans. You know. Priorities.
langford peel said...
Another horrible outcome caused by forced busing.
wtf?
There's no forced busing in Michigan. Michigan produced the leading anti-busing case in all of U.S. law: Milliken v. Bradley, 418 U.S. 717 (1974).
"Oh Puuuleeeze.
Fourteen year old people are old enough to be aware of their situations. If not they should not be allowed out alone.
Your situation is suspicious. First you are on the streets during school hours. You don't live in the neighborhood. You are pounding on some stranger's door. You are being yelled at. You are warned. You are told to leave.
You don't do it (leave) Not doing it and giving the homeowner time to get his/her weapon....isn't too trusting. It is stupid or malicious. Maybe both. I don't care what color you are. Black White Jehovah's Witness :-D......stupid is as stupid does.
He is lucky he wasn't really shot. Learn from your mistakes dummy!"
Yeah.
Don't identify as black. It marks you as dangerous and stupid.
Are we sure he didn't have his phone?
I think the facts will come out that a homeowner in his own home was justified in firing a warning shot to stop a potential home invasion.
How many home invasion had there been in this neighborhood? What is this kids real record. Not the bullshit hits mama spots for the camera.
It will all come out in court. But I bet it will never get to court.
Soap opera bullshit for ultra liberal old white ladies like Chuck and Althouse.
This page was designed to be difficult to use:
Inmates INCARCERATED in the last 72 hours
All busing is forced busing. You can't tell me this kid wasn't bused for racial balance.
It is not called forced busing anymore but it is none the less. This kid should have gone to a school in his neighborhood he could have walked to and not get lost.
langford peel said...
Are we sure he didn't have his phone?
I think the facts will come out that a homeowner in his own home was justified in firing a warning shot to stop a potential home invasion.
How many home invasion had there been in this neighborhood? What is this kids real record. Not the bullshit hits mama spots for the camera.
It will all come out in court. But I bet it will never get to court.
Soap opera bullshit for ultra liberal old white ladies like Chuck and Althouse.
You're on. What are our stakes?
In fact, I am going to guess that there are at least three actions, all in the Circuit Court for the County of Oakland. A civil action for damages (the white couple has a homeowners' insurance policy no doubt, and the insurer's declaratory action to deny coverage for an intentional, criminal act; and the third will be the felony charge after the man is arraigned later today in the 52nd District Court.
Get back to me about what the stakes are for your bet.
The video will be fascinating.
People do react differently to anyone unknown knocking at their door now versus 30 years ago. Door-to-door sales are much rarer, people rarely need to ask for directions, etc. You don't shoot at the ones that DO knock, though. Geez.
"Brennan Walker" is a nice, suburban-prep-school name.
I'm impressed that the husband is retired at fifty three. As for the kid, maybe he was casing the joint or maybe it was exactly as he said. Either way once he didn't assault the woman and was retreating from the house the husband had no right to shoot at the kid.
"People do react differently to anyone unknown knocking at their door now versus 30 years ago."
This is good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Swzvm-gXHg
I'm impressed that the husband is retired at fifty three.
Standard, 30-and-pension union contract.
langford peel said...
All busing is forced busing. You can't tell me this kid wasn't bused for racial balance...
I am telling you that there is no cross-district busing for racial balance in Michigan, and I am also telling you that there is no racially-based busing within the Rochester School District.
I am telling you, and if we were standing in front of each other I would be telling you and jabbing your sternum with my index finger and sneering at you and doing everything in my power to convey to you that anybody who calls me a "pussy" better be able to back it up if you know what I mean, sport.
\
I want to see the video. Just telling the video exists and shows some described event isn't enough for me any longer- I simply don't trust the media.
JohnAnnArbor said...
I'm impressed that the husband is retired at fifty three.
Standard, 30-and-pension union contract.
Detroit firefighter. For sure. He's probably retired from two jobs.
30 years as a fire fighter in Detroit? The guy deserves not just a pension but a medal for combat bravery.
The race card has lost its power. And if all you have is a hand full of race cards, it's time to fold.
I was looking at the Google Maps Street View of the street the house is on and at the regular map, trying to see where a nearby school is. I'm curious what school he was trying to get to and where he was coming from. The only school I can find nearby just goes through 6th grade and it's not obvious to me, from the map, how this street would be a route anyone would walk to get to a school.
John Tuffnell said...
"People do react differently to anyone unknown knocking at their door now versus 30 years ago."
This is good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Swzvm-gXHg
OK, THAT's funny. A co-worker showed me that video a few weeks back!
30 years as a fire fighter in Detroit? The guy deserves not just a pension but a medal for combat bravery.
When he started, the Oct. 30 firestorms would have been at their height. Not fun.
The only school I can find nearby just goes through 6th grade and it's not obvious to me, from the map, how this street would be a route anyone would walk to get to a school.
Dude normally takes a bus. So it's more than a short walk.
He was going to Rochester High School (as opposed to Rochester Adams, where Madonna went for a grade or two, and of which she has spoken rudely since).
Dust Bunny Queen said...
30 years as a fire fighter in Detroit? The guy deserves not just a pension but a medal for combat bravery.
Bravery perhaps, but not combat firearms or marksmanship.
And now, he might need another badge for surviving several years in the Alger Correctional Facility in the far Northern Peninsula, near Lake Superior.
"When he started, the Oct. 30 firestorms would have been at their height. Not fun."
Lived in the Detroit burbs from 1977-1989. There were so many Devil's Night fires that the city would just let them burn.
Just read this book that brought back some memories of the Big D: https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Night-Other-Tales-Detroit/dp/0804171408
Chuck said...
Detroit firefighter. For sure. He's probably retired from two jobs.
And working at a third, sometimes doing the same thing at one of the same places he "retired" from. The game-playing for dollars is nuts.
And now, he might need another badge for surviving several years in the Alger Correctional Facility in the far Northern Peninsula, near Lake Superior.
I thought only the long-termers went to the UP prisons.
He's going to prison, but I'm guessing at one of the lower-peninsula ones for a few years.
Do you to twist my nipples too internet tough guy?
Stick with abusing woman and children that is just your speed.
I don't believe a word you say. I have no doubt that this kid was bused for racial balance. They might not say that is why but that is what it is. Otherwise he would be in a school in the hood that he could walk to and not one so unfamiliar that he had to break into someone's home to find his way there.
The story stinks to high heaven. It is another manufactured racial incident when it is just a home invasion gone bad.
The story is based on two witnesses. Even then, it seems the first witness, the visitor, was belligerent, and the shot fired did not miss, but was a warning with the intent to dispel. Also, the second witness, the video, does not support a presumption of diversity, which suggests that the comment was generic, and that any inference by the police et al was diversity-motivated.
I observe that we don't know if the teenager is telling the truth, and we don't have the full story, but as it is, it is so highly inflammatory.
Agree that we are only getting only one side of the story, and agree strongly that the story is highly inflammatory.
Nevertheless, under no circumstances can I side with the homeowner and I strongly agree with the authorities jailing him and charging him with "every charge permissible" -- hopefully including attempted murder. Once the kid is running away he no longer represents a threat to the homeowner or his wife, and there is no reason to pull the trigger on a gun.
The part I don't get is the statement: "I found out later the only reason [the man] missed is because he forgot to take the safety off." If the safety is on then the gun cannot fire (trust me on this -- I have a safety on my own shotgun). If she means that her son was effectively out of range by the time the homeowner got his safety off, then that just makes the homeowner's actions all the worse.
I guess I live in a pretty safe neighborhood. Same situation happened to me a few years ago- strange teen on the front porch in the snow said he missed the bus and it was too cold to walk to school, could I maybe give him a ride? I did, and no biggie. Turns out he lives on the corner and knew my son, though he hadn't met me yet. Never occurred to me to be frightened, just irked that I had to brush off my car. fortunately, he did that part for me.
He will ever do a day in prison. He might be ruined financially but with the right crooked lawyer it won't even go to court.
Infinite Monkeys said...
I was looking at the Google Maps Street View of the street the house is on and at the regular map, trying to see where a nearby school is. I'm curious what school he was trying to get to and where he was coming from. The only school I can find nearby just goes through 6th grade and it's not obvious to me, from the map, how this street would be a route anyone would walk to get to a school.
Rochester H.S. is at least a couple of miles away. That area is largely new subdivisions. New, but not a lot of sidewalks. Lots of individual subdivisions and condo developments, all separated by woods and hills. Suburb and exurb.
I have to say, I also don't get why this kid could not figure out a pathway that he knew, to get to school. Early on, on this page, I said I did not get that part. I still don't. Unless this is a generational thing where some millennials and post-millennials are so totally phone-oriented that they honestly could not navigate a walk without GPS guidance. That could be a truly interesting aspect to this story.
"Bravery perhaps, but not combat firearms or marksmanship."
Spent some time recently with a guy who just retired after 30 years with the Milwaukee FD. He said it was unbelievable how many times he would go to a call for help (usually not a fire) where the person injured was armed, even just car accidents and such. Guns dropping out of pant legs, in waistbands, etc. You're right that they aren't shooting, usually, but city firefighters deal with guns on the streets alot if that anecdote was true.
I have no doubt that this kid was bused for racial balance. They might not say that is why but that is what it is.
Dude, black people DO live in the suburbs now. And MANY kids of all stripes could not find their way out of a paper bag without the GPS on their cell phone.
The police do NOT believe the retired firefighter, and they have the guy's own video. This isn't going the way you think it is.
This is outrageous as reported. If it does turn out to be a story ginned up to help The Narrative that's outrageous also.
So either way this is going to be news for quite a while.
Once the kid is running away he no longer represents a threat to the homeowner or his wife, and there is no reason to pull the trigger on a gun.
Exactly. I'd add the words "any potential" ahead of the word "threat."
You can't understand it Chuck because he wasn't legitimately trying to get to school. He was looking for trouble. He found it.
This is just a racial fairy tale for SJW morons and the RHINOS who wash their balls.
A 14 year old can kill you just as fast as a 41 year old.
Infinite Monkeys,
I actually did exactly what you did- from the story, the incident took place on a street called S. Christian Hills, which is a meandering residential street within the normal gridded rectangular main streets- here is the street on Google Maps. Here is the High School that the boy claims to have been walking towards. Of course, the missing detail we need is the boy's home street.
That area is largely new subdivisions. New, but not a lot of sidewalks. Lots of individual subdivisions and condo developments, all separated by woods and hills. Suburb and exurb.
I have to say, I also don't get why this kid could not figure out a pathway that he knew, to get to school.
Well, it's easy enough to walk on the subdivision streets with no sidewalks (I hate those; stop cheating out and put sidewalks in, people!). But the main roads, if no sidewalks, are more dangerous; Oakland County drivers are agressive. And things look different from a car than walking, especially if you spend the ride to school with your nose in your phone.
I'm too lazy to go to Google Maps to check about sidewalks.
"Cheaping" out. Thanks, autocorrect.
Langford peel; you wanted a bet and I accepted. I asked you what the stakes are.
You are telling all of these readers that the case "won't even go to court." Back it up. Put your money where your foul mouth is.
This is the same media that gave you "Hands Up Don't Shoot." The college professor who hung a noose on her own door. All the way back to Tawana Brawley and the rise of Reverand Al.
This is another bullshit story ginned up to inflame white guilt in old women.
Ladies go back to your soap operas. Nothing to see here.
"My mom says that, black boys get shot because sometimes they don't look their age, and I don't look my age. I'm 14; but I don't look 14.
Interesting observation.
Maybe we should wait for more facts.
JohninAnnArbor,
The nearest main street had no sidewalks, and I wouldn't want to walk along it if I didn'have to based just on the traffic visible on the street view.
Chuck I am not going to bet with you. You are a known liar and welcher who would never pay up in a million years.
Why not go back to whacking off watching nipple twisting videos. There are men talking here.
JohnAnnArbor:
I picked Alger, because that is where Theodore Wafer (the Dearborn Heights porch-shooter) is doing the next 10 years or so.
As for sidewalks, it just took me less than a minute to figure out that a kid could walk up Adams Road to Avon Road to Livernois to Rochester H.S. and it is sidewalk/bike path all the way.
I do not get the business about the kid getting lost and asking for directions. Just do not get it.
Tank said...
Maybe we should wait for more facts.
Next you will calling for Reason.
Fascist.
She says her husband is deployed in Syria.
I don't believe we have boots-on-the-ground in Syria. I think we have air power focused on Syria, but nothing deployed in Syria.
The article is only interesting because of what is NOT said.
Tank said...
Maybe we should wait for more facts.
That's crazy talk. This is the internet. A comment section on the internet.
langford peel said...
Chuck I am not going to bet with you. You are a known liar and welcher who would never pay up in a million years.
I'm no welcher. I made one bet with another Althouse commenter. I won, and he paid up. I'm not a welcher, the other person was not a welcher.
Where do you step off, with these allegations?
As the story has been told to date this is not an ambiguous story. The perp has been arrested and will get his day in court.
Nipple twisrer said:
"I do not get the business about the kid getting lost and asking for directions. Just do not get it."
You don't get it because it is a lie. Pure and simple. An excuse made up after the fact.
The story are reported is ambiguous. There is no evidence of a diversity motive. There is no evidence that the shot was fired in the direction of the visitor. Unlike scalpels that lack a safety, and, in our society, a moral restraint, a gun does not fire while the safety is engaged, and can be directed for purposes other than to commit an elective abortion.
According to fake news reports this innocent homeowner was supposed to be arraigned on Friday. Today. Did that happen?
The ever comical ARM doesn't know what ambiguous means, what a surprise.
ARM, we have one side of the story, that is the very definition of ambiguous. I note that the video has not been publicly released- had it been, then, perhaps, we could be sure of what happened, but we haven't seen it, and I don't trust anyone's description of what it might show. This leaves me ambiguous. If the situation were not ambiguous, there would be no need for a trial, right? Right?
and can be directed for purposes other than to commit an elective abortion.
Ofte, discharging a firearm is against local law, without reason (that is, no genuine threat).
Langford peel; you chicken. You pussy. You loser. Make the bet. Stand up and be counted. Back up your trashtalk, you weenie.
I saw a photo of him and his mom's in the article.
Check out her teeth.
She looks like a crack whore.
Seems very credible.
I don't believe we have boots-on-the-ground in Syria. I think we have air power focused on Syria, but nothing deployed in Syria.
Incorrect. We have plenty of special forces and Marines there. Recently some Russian mercenaries “accidentally” put artillery on our guys and we retaliated with air support killing approximately 300 of their mercs. Who do you think was supporting the Free Syrian Army?
"I have to say, I also don't get why this kid could not figure out a pathway that he knew, to get to school. Early on, on this page, I said I did not get that part. I still don't. Unless this is a generational thing where some millennials and post-millennials are so totally phone-oriented that they honestly could not navigate a walk without GPS guidance."
1) 14 years old. Some are more resourceful and act like 16 year olds. Some are less resourceful and act like 12 or 13 year olds.
I've gotten disoriented with north and south, so I don't find it that surprising.
2) What you said about the phone. They can't go to the bathroom without their phones. They call for help on their phones. They don't know what to do without their phones.
"My mom says that, black boys get shot because sometimes they don't look their age, and I don't look my age. I'm 14; but I don't look 14.
Well.....at least he has this much self awareness. NOW. Try to be more self aware of your location/situation/how others may perceive you. And...when told to stop knocking on the door and go away...for God's sake....DO IT.
How anyone can take a bus daily to a location and not have some sort of clue on the route is unbelievable.
How anyone can take a bus daily to a location and not have some sort of clue on the route is unbelievable.
Again, nose perpetually pointed at phone. Not hard to imagine.
The one day he doesn't have the phone, he can't navigate.
Imagine the wild scrambling here to rewrite comments if it were suddenly learned the homeowner was actually black and the student white.
Again, nose perpetually pointed at phone. Not hard to imagine.
The one day he doesn't have the phone, he can't navigate.
Then perhaps we should let Darwin's law prevail. If you are too stupid to pay attention to your surroundings then you probably shouldn't be procreating.
Idiocracy....was't just a movie. It is a window to our future.
"I am telling you, and if we were standing in front of each other I would be telling you and jabbing your sternum with my index finger and sneering at you and doing everything in my power to convey to you that anybody who calls me a "pussy" better be able to back it up if you know what I mean, sport."
You would do no such thing. Perhaps you would lie sobbing in a puddle of your own blood and urine, you silly mangina.
I really don’t understand the people upthread who focus on the actions of the kid. Maybe he’s lying, maybe he’s not. Maybe he is partly telling the truth and partly lying. DOES NOT MATTER! Unless Michigan law differs a lot from everywhere else, the homeowner didn’t just break some minor law — he attempted to commit murder. Period. You are allowed to defend yourself and your family, and even strangers you don’t know. But once the guy is running away, he is no longer a threat and you are not allowed to shoot.
If any of you commentators upthread don’t grasp this but do own a firearm, then I urge you to take a concealed carry class, not to carry a concealed weapon, but to learn the relevant laws. Or else sell your guns.
I see that someone mentioned Joe Biden. DO NOT FOLLOW HIS ADVICE!!! You will be arrested for illegal discharge of a firearm. More importantly, you do not want to be caught reloading your shotgun if the person does break in.
Big Mike said...
Unless Michigan law differs a lot from everywhere else, the homeowner didn’t just break some minor law — he attempted to commit murder.
If the story is reported accurately, you are correct. It is possible that the story is inaccurate, and that the man only fired a warning shot. Still almost certainly illegal, but not nearly as bad. Hopefully the video shows the direction he was firing.
"Why are you arguing with a frightened woman?
"Go to the next house.
"I am betting there is another side to this story."
No, there's the just the obvious one: racism.
Unless Michigan law differs a lot from everywhere else, the homeowner didn’t just break some minor law — he attempted to commit murder.
Michigan has a "stand your ground" law. It was enacted when a lot of other states like Florida enacted them (2000-2008 general time period) and it was signed into law by Michigan's then-Governor, Democrat Jennifer Granholm. Who had to answer for it, when her gigs on MSNBC and CNN got, uh, complicated after the Trayvon Martin shooting.
This case would not qualify as a "stand your ground" case.
************
MCL 780.972 “Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
Sec. 2.
(1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.”
************
"If any of you commentators upthread don’t grasp this but do own a firearm, then I urge you to take a concealed carry class, not to carry a concealed weapon, but to learn the relevant laws. Or else sell your guns."
Maybe people should hope for more concealed carry permit holders rather than fewer. At least people take a class for concealed carry.
Another downside of bussing.
"I don't believe we have boots-on-the-ground in Syria. I think we have air power focused on Syria, but nothing deployed in Syria."
We have boots-on-the-ground in places all around the globe.
Has Spike Lee tweeted any addresses yet?
No, there's the just the obvious one: racism.
If a 14-year-old black kid shows up at my door - banging on it - and claims he's lost on his way to school? Yes. I'm going to think he's up to no good. Because there is no way somebody can find his or her way to my doorstep looking for some school. White or black.
But if that makes me a racist? OK. So be it.
What else you got?
Why no phone? Where was kid's starting point. If you mapquest the street you'll see that High school is straight north bout a mile and one half. I've traveled the area in question since 1973. Sunny day, rising in the east, easy to find the northern /westward path. Overslept, didn't have the phone because of parental "discipline" doesn't know how to get to school... smells lot like Trayvon. Did ring video function properly? Start and finish captured? Shots fired isn't right, but there's two sides.
Dearborn shooting? Lotsa "inadmissable" background here, like Trayvon. Extreme filters suggested for Detroit papers advised.
If he missed, I would think it would be hard to prove attempted murder or even assault with intent to commit murder. Isn’t the defense lawyer going to argue it was a warning shot or an accidental discharge in the fog of the situation. Who is the witness? The kid running away? The wife?
If you retired from the Detroit Fire Department you most likely have PTSD. In Fallujah one could at least return fire. Firemen and EMT can't even carry mace. I have family and friends working Detroit at the street level and it is some truly ugly, vicious drug crazed shit. First responders risk it all, every day, day after day. Consider that.
Sounds like someone was looking for a house to break into.
WWWW... seek competent therapy. Your comment is the racism of low expectation.
People do react differently to anyone unknown knocking at their door now versus 30 years ago
I just about FREAK when someone knocks on our door and I realize it's not locked. We're back about 100 yards off the road and it feels pretty spooky sometimes.
And it's 99% white around here. Plenty of lowlifes to go around.
I just about FREAK when someone knocks on our door and I realize it's not locked. We're back about 100 yards off the road and it feels pretty spooky sometimes.
Althouse did a post on this subject a short while back. She linked to a story about how the cellphone generation never uses doorbells anymore. They text each other, to say, "Hey I am here."
Any white person with a brain in the head would not give a shit about being called a racist.
Of course you can't talk about how you really feel because the fascists would destroy you as they did people who were protecting their own lives like the cop in Ferguson or George Zimmerman.
This story is just a small step away from the one in England where a 78 year old man was arrested for killing a burglar who invaded his home. He took the weapon away from him and defended himself and was charged with murder. People like Chuck and Althouse want us to become England. Instead of siding with a hero fireman they take the side of a youte who must have been up to no good.
Being called a racist doesn't mean anything anymore.
Big Mike said...
"Unless Michigan law differs a lot from everywhere else, the homeowner didn’t just break some minor law — he attempted to commit murder."
Unless Michigan law differs a lot from everywhere else, simply discharging a firearm where someone else can hear it may be a crime, but it is not attempted murder.
"You are allowed to defend yourself and your family, and even strangers you don’t know. But once the guy is running away, he is no longer a threat and you are not allowed to shoot."
Again, assumes facts not in evidence. If you believe someone poses a threat of serious harm to you or another person, you have the right to shoot him. It is entirely possible that a person who is running away from you at the moment poses a threat of serious harm to you or another person. He could be running to get behind cover, so he can safely shoot you. He could be chasing some other person. If you have a reasonable belief that he is armed, then the question of whether he is dangerous is arguable.
The purpose of the trial is to reach the standard of no reasonable doubt, not to know what happened. That's the purpose of common sense.
If the accused didn’t run off at the mouth and his lawyer is half smart, this is an unlawful discharge of firearms case blown out of proportion by the race baiters and an angry mom.
Reportedly a shotgun? Missed him? With a shotgun? Unlikely, if he was actually aiming at him. Or perhaps this kid is an Olympic sprinting prospect.
"Zeigler told the court Friday, “There’s a lot more to the story that what’s being told. I was in bed yesterday and my wife started screaming and crying. It will all come out in court.”
The juge told Zeigler his arraignment was not the appropriate time for him to make such statements and he will have the opportunity to defend himself later."
What we are being asked to believe is that this all happened because someone knocked on a door. Uh-huh.
Althouse did a post on this subject a short while back. She linked to a story about how the cellphone generation never uses doorbells anymore. They text each other, to say, "Hey I am here."
I'd prefer that to what my neighbors do...they sit in the car and blow the horn until the person they're waiting for comes out of the house.
"Earlier Friday, the Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations had called on Oakland County prosecutors to level strong charges against the man who discharged his firearm at the African-American teen.
“The shooter should be robustly charged according to our state’s criminal law for shooting at the unarmed teen who simply came to a home asking for directions,” said Dawud Walid, CAIR-MI’s executive director. “We suspect that the alleged shooter may have been motivated to attempt to murder the unarmed teen due to racial bias.”"
Did someone mention Islam?
Again, assumes facts not in evidence. If you believe someone poses a threat of serious harm to you or another person, you have the right to shoot him. It is entirely possible that a person who is running away from you at the moment poses a threat of serious harm to you or another person. He could be running to get behind cover, so he can safely shoot you. He could be chasing some other person. If you have a reasonable belief that he is armed, then the question of whether he is dangerous is arguable.
@Jupiter, nice straw men, but apparently you did not read the article. There is a video. The claim is that it shows the kid running away. And HELL YES you can miss a moving target with a shotgun! I've done it myself, in competition.
Hey, langford peel! This thing that you said "would never go to court..."?
Well Jeffrey Zeigler, 53, has just been arraigned on a charge of assault with intent to murder and felony firearms violations. The cash bond is $50,000. I don't know if he is out yet.
Is that "court" enough for you?
What do I win, for saying that he'd be arraigned today in the very court I described further up on this page?
So he was arraigned?
Chuck I apologize to you. You are entirely correct. You must know the cuck social justice warrior justice system of Michigan better than me. It takes one to know one.
Since you are a product of the Michigan legal community I guess we have to expect that a hero fire fighter will be arrested and tried for firing a warning shot to stop a home invasion that terrified his wife.
If he gets a "Bronx" jury he will probably get the chair.
>>Unless Michigan law differs a lot from everywhere else, the homeowner didn’t just break some minor law — he attempted to commit murder
Attempted murder requires an intent to kill. If there's video of this, and it shows the guy shooting into straight up into the air, then that would be fairly convincing evidence of a lack of such intent.
Maybe it's YOU that should be going for remedial training in firearms law?
Nice shit hole state you have there.
OTOH, anyone who thinks a 14-year-old of today could find his school without directions or a GPS just because he rides the bus there daily doesn’t know many 14-year-olds.
langford peel said...
So he was arraigned?
Chuck I apologize to you. You are entirely correct. You must know the cuck social justice warrior justice system of Michigan better than me. It takes one to know one.
Since you are a product of the Michigan legal community I guess we have to expect that a hero fire fighter will be arrested and tried for firing a warning shot to stop a home invasion that terrified his wife.
If he gets a "Bronx" jury he will probably get the chair.
Michigan felonies are arraigned in District Court, and then removed to Circuit Court for trials. He will get an Oakland County jury for his trial. Oakland County juries are routinely about 80% white, middle and upper-middle class and very slightly older than the other large southeast Michigan counties. The Oakland County Prosecutor's Office is one of the more aggressive prosecution offices in the entire state.
I do not envy Mr. Zeigler's near-term future.
hombre said...
OTOH, anyone who thinks a 14-year-old of today could find his school without directions or a GPS just because he rides the bus there daily doesn’t know many 14-year-olds.
I am here to tell you; I do not know many 14-year-olds. Seriously; I really do not.
Is it any wonder that Detroit and the state of Michigan is in the state it is in.
This poor guy worked as a firefighter protecting that community. He moved to get far away from it if he could.
But it still came and tried to break down his door. Terrifying his wife.
Firing a warning shot to protect his wife and his property is enough to have him convicted in the court of cuck opinion.
Like I said. Nice shit hole state you have there.
If he gets convicted I hope the God Emperor gives him a pardon.
Chuck is only an expert on eleven year olds like a certain President child.
I do think someone should check his browser history.
Get Zuckerberg on the phone.
@DanTheMan, you wrote if there's a video of this, and it shows the guy shooting into [sic] straight up into the air ...
Well, per the article there is a video, and per Chuck's comment at 2:47 the charge is assault with intent to murder, which suggests that Zeigler was not pointing his shotgun up into the air since they have more than enough to put him in jail without the assault charge. Also, per my comment at 1:24 shooting your shotgun up into the air would be about the stupidest thing you could possibly do.
Ann Althouse said...If you're really that frightened, don't answer the door.
Tsk tsk tsk, victim-splaining. Deplorable.
"If those women were really emotionally harmed by Cosby's actions they wouldn't have kept in (friendly) contact with him."
"If she really didn't consent to the sex she would have gone to the police the next day and not kept text messaging him & only later carry a mattress around campus."
I mean, I could do a million of 'em. I guess SOMETIMES it's ok to have expectations about how a frightened/traumatized woman behaves and SOMETIMES it's not ok.
Big Mike: “And HELL YES you can miss a moving target with a shotgun! I've done it myself, in competition.”
The point is: If he missed, how does the prosecutor prove he intended to hit the kid unless he admitted it?
But, of course, he will be charged with all the traffic will bear. The prosecutor is a Democrat. (Although the prosecutor may not have reviewed the case yet, in which case I will apologize. LOL.)
@langford peel, please notice that neither Chuck nor I are saying that the wife was wrong to be frightened, and I'm not even saying that Zeigler was wrong to pick up his shotgun. But the law (correctly in my opinion) says that once the threat stops, you are no longer shooting in self-defense.
If you don't feel like obeying the law, but you are registered Republican, may I politely suggest changing party registration, and joining the party that thinks the law doesn't apply to them?
Big Mike said...
"@Jupiter, nice straw men, but apparently you did not read the article. There is a video. The claim is that it shows the kid running away."
I have, in fact, read the article. I don't necessarily believe everything it says, but the only passage making a claim about a video is this one;
"... investigators told her the family's Ring doorbell recorded the encounter. Investigators watched the video with Brennan and his mom. She says the video confirmed their suspicions.
"One of the things that stands out, that probably angers me the most is, while I was watching the tape, you can hear the wife say, 'Why did "these people" choose my house?'" she says, before taking a long pause. "Who are, "these people?" And that set me off. I didn't want to believe it was what it appeared to look like. When I heard her say that, it was like, but it is [what it looks like]."
So, it appears that the source for the information about what the video contains is the boy's mother, and she thinks it demonstrates improper usage of plural pronouns.
Speaking of grammatical infractions, you wrote "The claim is ...". That is a poorly constructed sentence. I think you were trying to use the passive voice, so as to describe an action without naming the actor. But you need another verb.
You could try, "It was claimed that the shot occurred while the boy was running away". That is suitably vague, but of course, if you reread the article, you will see that the person making that claim is the boy. And then we have the following;
"Thankfully, the man missed. Brennan kept running, hid, then cried." No source is cited for this information, but the range of possibilities is narrow.
I suppose it is possible that Ziegler ran out onto his front porch, pointed his shotgun at Walker and fired it, and that is all recorded on the video. It seems unlikely, and it certainly is not claimed in the article. You needn't apologize for the "straw men" allegation, unless you believe that owning up to one's mistakes is a good way to avoid repeating them.
@hombre, depends on the video, doesn't it? I do partly take back what I wrote at 3:07. Even more stupid than shooting up into the air would be shooting in the general direction of a running person but deliberately missing. At the very least you are likely to damage a neighbor's house, you might injure or even kill a neighbor.
I wish people would get over the notion that you cannot miss with a shotgun. You can, and Zeigler did, and if he hadn't he'd be up on second degree murder (the "depraved mind" charge).
may I politely suggest changing party registration,
I suspect a Moby, but regardless no one who should be thought much of.
Profile includes:
Favorite Movies Birth of a Nation, American History X, Do the right Thing.
Favorite Music John Philip Sousa
That can't really be a fish you're standing on, can it?
No it is your mothers cunt.
>>shooting your shotgun up into the air would be about the stupidest thing you could possibly do.
I agree with that completely.
But we haven't seen the video. But I have heard the victim say the homeowner asked why he was breaking into her house. That suggests he did something more than "just knock on the door".
As to his being charged, you may be right. The local police may have seen the video and it confirms everything he and his mother say. But I suspect very strongly there is a lot more to this story...
Oh, and Florida just updated it's SYG law to include warning shots...
I still don't think this will go to trial.
They will force a plea bargain on this poor guy. Or they will ruin him financially the way they do.
>>They will force a plea bargain on this poor guy
Maybe. I would be interested to see if the other neighbors have security cameras, and what they show. They are very common now (we have a set on our house running 24x7). The doorbell camera may only show a small slice of a larger event.
Why would I be a Republican?
A party of losers and cucks.
I am an independent waiting for the new America First party.
You just don't want to hear anything that upsets your namby pamby politically correct world.
As far as obeying the law. That ship has sailed pal. Only a mug obeys the law these days. Just don't get caught.
hombre said...
Big Mike: “And HELL YES you can miss a moving target with a shotgun! I've done it myself, in competition.”
The point is: If he missed, how does the prosecutor prove he intended to hit the kid unless he admitted it?
But, of course, he will be charged with all the traffic will bear. The prosecutor is a Democrat. (Although the prosecutor may not have reviewed the case yet, in which case I will apologize. LOL.)
It is almost always a different prosecutor, and team, that does the arraignment in District Court. When it is assigned for trial in the Circuit Court, it will inevitably be somebody else. And it won't be Jessica Cooper trying it. And the Oakland County Prosecutor's office to the Southeast Michigan Republican Party what the Toledo Mud Hens are to the Detroit Tigers. It's filled with young Republicans with political ambitions.
The husband was responding to the wife's hysteria. Lock him up.
warning shots inside city limits illegal, guilty as charged. Murder, not sure how a shotgun could miss if pointed in the general direction of the fleeing victim. Also not sure how a shotgun pointed a fleeing victim misses the house across the street.
Ann Althouse said...
"If you're really that frightened, don't answer the door. You might be afraid that not answering would motivate the person to break in, thinking the house is unoccupied, but if you've got a gun and are ready to shoot the intruder, just don't answer the door and see if there is a break in."
They had a ring doorbell, which not only does video but allows you to answer the door by way of computer or mobile device, just like an intercom, I once answered the door when I was out shopping! They had the option to communicate without opening the door.
Missing information
What kind of shotgun. 20 gauge? 12 gauge?. Buckshot? Birdshot? Slugs? Pump shotgun? Semi Auto?
How far away was the running away person? 10ft? 50 yds? A 12 gauge shot gun is really ineffective at more than 40 yards. Your likelihood of killing someone (not a quail but a person) is next to nil at that range.
Is there anything between him and the shooter? Cars? Bushes? Mitigating barriers to a clean shot?
If I were using a shotgun in this guy's position, for house protection and wanted to fire off a warning shot.....and given that this looks like a congested urban setting....I would fire my shot into the ground. Not straight at the running away person because
1. It is probably too far away to do more than pepper him with shot if you are lucky and
2. I don't want to damage my neighbor's houses, cars etc. with stray pellets/shot.
An attempted murder charge is going to be pretty tough to prove. Unless the kid was really close at the time the shot was fired, it was just a warning shot.
Taking the kid's word for how far away he was at the time, seems like a pretty weak case since he couldn't even figure out how to walk around without a cell phone.
"If you're really that frightened, don't answer the door. You might be afraid that not answering would motivate the person to break in, thinking the house is unoccupied, but if you've got a gun and are ready to shoot the intruder, just don't answer the door and see if there is a break in."
Good idea. Because once he is IN your house THEN you can kill him with impunity. It makes a mess of your carpet and sheet rock though. Bring the intruder into the house and THEN NAIL HIM!!
:-D
"An attempted murder charge is going to be pretty tough to prove."
Unless the video is very different from what is being alleged by the police then it won't be especially tough. He may plea bargain down but it looks bad for the shooter. As it should.
Unless he wants to argue that based on what he heard from the wife he had a reasonable belief that he or she was under threat of imminent harm. That possibility might get him a lesser charge in the plea bargain. But he's still going to jail.
@Jupiter, no apologies are forthcoming, now or in the foreseeable future.
There's a lot of internet whoop-asses in here today. I'm scared, but lucky for me I've got a cyber 12 gauge handy.
It looks like George Zimmerman got him a wife he could keep and moved to Michigan. What was the shooter's name again? But I hear riots are fun to watch.
Good idea. Because once he is IN your house THEN you can kill him with impunity.
Not quite, but close. Once you believed that the person is really attempting to break in then call 911, tell them that there is home invasion in progress (that brings them very fast!) and that the homeowner is armed and retreated to a position of safety (and really do retreat). You will probably be told to stay on the line. Only then, once the intruder is inside the home, while the police are listening and recording, you say something to the effect of "stop, don't make me use this." Then hold him at gunpoint for the police, or shoot if he continues to advance.
You and I generally agree with things, but I don't hold with taking a life except to save someone else's life. And I'm not sure that you're advocating for it except to exaggerate for effect. Maybe the kid, looking down the twin barrels of a 12 gauge, will be scared straight. Who knows?
@ Big Mike: Once you believed that the person is really attempting to break in then call 911, tell them that there is home invasion in progress (that brings them very fast!)
Fast? Maybe where YOU fucking live. A normal fast Sheriff response here (not police..sheriff) is 30 to 45 minutes. That would be lickity split fast. In the unlikely event they happen to be geographically close to your position, it would be a miracle. It isn't their fault. We just don't have enough officers to cover the square miles.
If you think that cowering in the closet for almost an hour is an option, you are crazy.
I'm not sure that you're advocating for it except to exaggerate for effect.
Actually, I was being kind of snarky and sarcastic about the idea that you just let the invaders into your house. The best thing is to keep the intruders out and scare them away. If it takes a warning shot over their heads or into the ground, then that is what you do. They will remember your house and avoid it in the future.
Purposely letting home invaders into your house is a nutso idea.
Rochester Hills Michigan is one of the safest cities in the country.
There was no need to be that frightened of a teenager at your door.
In fact, according to FBI statistics, Rochester Hills is the safest city in Michigan.
I'm getting a Granny Clampett "rock salt" vibe from this incident.
Rabel said...
"Unless the video is very different from what is being alleged by the police then it won't be especially tough."
I have read two articles on this incident, one in the Detroit News, and one on Fox 2. Only the former mentions a video, and it does not quote any one other than the boy's mother as to the contents of that video.
Is there another article, in which the police describe the video they have not released?
At 14 I would meander a lot on my way to school. I’d walk through neighborhoods to imagine things. I’d get lost. A lot of dead ends. A lot of barking dogs. A lot of trying to find short cuts through woods and over barbed fences if I could see what was beyond. I never knocked on someone’s door. I always was looking for a public store. As someone said above there is a story where this kid was just naive and innocent. There is another story he may have been more mature and was casing houses. His circle of friends should reveal which is which.
How much threat have these homeowners watched on TV? Do they both have jobs that offer them the chance to interact with people or are they mental shutins on a decline? I don’t have a loaded shotgun in my house.
There is another story he may have been more mature and was casing houses.
As your free Michigan lawyer (worth every penny you are not paying), I'll give you a bit of advice. If someone knocks on your front door, and you think that they are "casing" your house, and you shout something or do something else that causes the person to run away, DO NOT take a shot at them with your shotgun as they are fleeing.
Because, uh, the county prosecutor will charge you with assault with intent to commit murder and other felony firearms violations. Just like today.
@DBQ, I had forgotten that you live in a very rural area. I usually put down the gun grabbers for imagining that every place in the US is just like where they live in an urban or suburban locale. Then I fell into much the same trap.
I'm not advocating "cowering in a closet." Plan a defensive position where you can cover the door with some safety. Get the police on the line and keep them on the line. Don't go looking for trouble; let it come to you.
In my book a home invasion in a rural area has to be just about the most dangerous situation around, not least because surely the invaders are expecting to find that the homeowners are armed. I cannot think of any rural dweller of my acquaintance who does not own at least a shotgun, and usually a hunting rifle -- bolt action, lever, or semi-automatic -- as well. So firing a warning shot strikes me -- not that I'm an expert! -- as a waste of time. If they are attacking a rural home then surely they are already expecting to face gunfire. All you are doing is wasting a shot you may need later to save your life.
Having your actions on tape is a good thing. When I took my CCW class the instructor told us of a case where a guy tried to break into a rural farmhouse and was shot dead by the farmer. The police asked him why, if he was such a devout Christian, he felt it was okay to violate the Commandment against killing. The farmer said that he felt God would understand his need to protect his wife and children. In court, the policeman testified under oath that the farmer said "God told me it was okay to kill him."
Take no chances. Warn them while they're still outside that you have a gun. Let them break in while you are in a position to cover their entry. Give them a chance to surrender or at least run away. If you must shoot, shoot to kill and be sure you have audio that supports your story that there was no safe alternative.
Then say nothing to the police expect that you were frightened for your life until you can get a lawyer. Some places are understanding; others are too close to big cities and you may find yourself in the grip of an ambitious young prosecutor and an urban or suburban jury.
That's what I was taught. YMMV.
The police asked the farmer why, if he was such a devout Christian ...
Sorry about the inadvertant antecedent issue.
DBQ said: "How anyone can take a bus daily to a location and not have some sort of clue on the route is unbelievable."
I disagree. It is common for school buses to carry students from grades K through 12. The routes often stop at multiple schools (grade school, Jr High, Sr High) and students may switch buses along the way.
My bus as a grade school kid took me first to the Sr High school, where I transferred to another bus that took kids to two different grade schools. Riding on the bus didn't mean knowing the way to school.
NE reports: I don’t have a loaded shotgun in my house.
Then you don't live in a rural area.
Jupiter, there are multiple quotes online from the Sheriff and the DA, both having seen the video, that back up the bulk of the teen's story.
The retiree screwed up big time and will pay for it. Like I said above, he may have been reacting to what his wife was saying or it may be that he is a little bit nuts, but even if the teen is embellishing his version and even if he had ill intent, it's hard for me to see that the law would try to cover up any actions of his which constituted an attempted break-in. That's not impossible but with the video on record it seems unlikely.
Eventually we'll probably get to see the video/audio and can make a more informed judgement, but right now I'm thinking that a dumb ass did something very stupid and very criminal.
"In fact, according to FBI statistics, Rochester Hills is the safest city in Michigan."
I reckon so. They'll shoot you if you come knocking. That's a solid deterrent.
@ Big Mike So firing a warning shot strikes me -- not that I'm an expert! -- as a waste of time. If they are attacking a rural home then surely they are already expecting to face gunfire. All you are doing is wasting a shot you may need later to save your life.
Yes. It is very different living in a rural area. I am glad that you are able to make that distinction. It does irk me to hear the arguments about guns, gun control and who needs guns all from the perspective that the police are just minutes away and blah blah blah blah.
I'd rather fire a warning shot to scare the intruders off, than have to actually shoot at a human being. In my experience and of those who have been victimized, most of the thieves (in our area) are looking for easy pickings. They want to steal, grab and go so they can get things they can easily sell for money to buy drugs or other substances. Mostly they are just inept and drunken or drugged losers. Mostly. They are cowards and not really ready for resistance.
Obviously, we are not going to shoot at just anyone who happens to drive onto our property or politely knocks on the door. That would be crazy and.....would put the Jehovah's Witness people in danger :-) They may be annoying, but they don't deserve to be shot at.
It is also easier for the would be intruders to back off if they haven't already made the commitment to be IN the house. Back off before IN the house, before we been able to see them or have been identified.
Once they know you are an armed household and willing to shoot....even into the ground....what do they know? that you are shooting into the ground or at them? They are by this time (hopefully) running away and don't generally know how many people or guns are in the house, the likelihood of them returning is less. We (people in this area) also have posted our property, with the approval of the Sheriffs officers to indicate the armed and ready status.
I look at it (warning shots) like the method we use to discourage feral dogs, coyotes and other garbage can raiding pests. Liberally seed the top of the can with old meat that has been doused in lots of cayenne pepper. Once they get a big mouthful of that burning cayenne and go yelping off across the property, you won't have your garbage cans raided for some time again. We can poison the animals, but they will learn their lesson in a less lethal way with cayenne. We also use warning shots for the mountain lions because...who wants a wounded lion when you can scare it away.
>>The retiree screwed up big time and will pay for it.
Right. Let's not wait for the evidence. He's been accused, that's enough. Crucifixion, post haste, please.
>>and you shout something or do something else that causes the person to run away
How about if you shout at them, asking why they are trying to break into your house, and they DON'T run away? What would a reasonably prudent person deduce from that behavior?
After 15 years living in Baltimore City, I would call the police if a stranger came knocking at my door. I started after a big guy came pounding on the door at dusk claiming to have a package for my neighbor. Accepting packages for my neighbor, was a frequent occurrence, but something felt off about the guy so I refused. I was tempted to call the police about him, but as a southern woman I was frequently told i must be racist so I figured I was and didn't do anything. He got in about 5 doors down and raped a woman.
I'm not sure if it's racism or just the difficulty of reading cross cultural signals.
A few questions.
How big was the kid? What was the kid wearing? What was his body language? How did he knock? (no doorbell?). Front door or back door? Why did he chose that particular house? Was the house isolated? in the middle of a street full of other houses? no one around on the street to ask? No stores around? Were there home invasions in the neighborhood recently that made the old folks fearful?
>>I'm not sure if it's racism or just the difficulty of reading cross cultural signals.
Christy, I'm sure it was fear of getting raped by a stranger. You made the right call.
A warning shot is assault with a deadly weapon. Shoot or shoot not. There is no warn.
Nancy Reyes said...
A few questions.
How big was the kid? What was the kid wearing? What was his body language? How did he knock? (no doorbell?). Front door or back door? Why did he chose that particular house? Was the house isolated? in the middle of a street full of other houses? no one around on the street to ask? No stores around? Were there home invasions in the neighborhood recently that made the old folks fearful?
Good questions! Here's one more; if the kid is running away, having never shown a weapon of any kind (and no reason to expect him to have a weapon) after having never entered the house or even threatened to enter the house, why shoot at him?
>A warning shot is assault with a deadly weapon. Shoot or shoot not. There is no warn.
Not in Florida.
Two tangential thoughts:
1.) Listening to Takemitsu's "River Run" piano concerto. Takemitsu and Kurosawa didn't get along very well; as such the former only scored a couple later films of the latter. Brought my Racist Mind to my favorite outside of "High and Low," : "Rashomon." We're being presented here with four points of view, as opposed to the classic three: a.) defendent b.) plaintiff c.) surveillance d.) interpretations given of the above.
2.) It's wicked interesting to look at all the points of attack from the different commenters. You've got the folks with the On the Ground Information, the folks with commentary based on their own situations, who are open to other ones, the trolls.
Little bit on myself: origins are 1/2 Detroit-like exurb, 1/2 hyper-urbanized Disdained "Liberal." My next door neighbor is an early retired firefighter. God Bless him. Wish he would stop raising the Confederate Administrative flag under Old Glory, in the name of "States' Rights," though.
Given that I'm not in Mountain Lion country (only opossums / feral cats / turkeys / neighbors who can't seem to pick up after or curb their d@mned dogs), I only keep a baseball bat nearby. Have only had to use it once, while looking fake threatening.
I generally tend to not look Black People, even males, as threats, given how many I've worked with in areas that I'd probably assume most people here have never dealt with.
FWIW: It's been a *long* time since I've shot anything beyond archery. I thought that firing to the ground was worse than firing in air, due to the danger of ricochet, much less predictable than how a bullet might land when fired in air?
Why did he chose that particular house?
On the video linked to in that Fox News piece it said that the young man picked that house because he saw a neighborhood watch sticker on it and so figured it'd be a safe place to approach. Ha.
How is a warning shot not assault in FL? Because of Marissa Alexander? There was an exception made for her to make up for the Zimmerman verdict, but that doesn't change the law. Anyway, she MISSED her shot; that doesn't mean she was trying to warn.
>>after having never entered the house or even threatened to enter the house
Then why did *he* say the homeowner asked him why he was trying to break in?
As a lawyer, you seem awfully quick to assume allegations are facts....
This guy was either a horrible shot or he fired a warning blast. A 12 gauge shotgun has a range that would amaze. I have a friend who was hit with penetrating pellets from a 28 guage at 100 yards. He will get off or charged with discharging a weapon in the city.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/politics/2014/06/21/gov-rick-scott-signs-warning-shot-bill/11204137/
It WAS a statutory change, not an "exception".
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/politics/2014/06/21/gov-rick-scott-signs-warning-shot-bill/11204137/
I agree that Marissa missed, and was not firing a warning shot.
As a police officer, I was trained to fire for effect, or don't shoot. That still seems like good advice.
Rabel said...
"Jupiter, there are multiple quotes online from the Sheriff and the DA, both having seen the video, that back up the bulk of the teen's story."
Really. Well, good. That should make it really easy for someone to link one or two of them.
"How is a warning shot not assault in FL? Because of Marissa Alexander?"
Law was changed in 2014 because of the Alexander case. As I understand it, the wording of the previous SYG law did not have an allowance for "warning shots."
The new law allows for that but only if you would have been justified in using deadly force to begin with. So it wouldn't help the retiree here even if he had been in Florida.
Unless I'm wrong and the shooting was justified, somehow.
"That should make it really easy for someone to link one or two of them."
If your internet is broken call your ISP.
I stand corrected.
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