How did I get there this morning? I was reading something in Psychology Today and clicked on something in the sidebar — "The Girl Logan Paul Rode With No Handlebars Speaks Up/Eliza Johnson has some advice for the YouTube star" — and it sent me to "Logan Paul's Suicide Forest Video/Part of a series on Logan Paul" at Know Your Meme, which got me looking at trending memes.
I guess the original topic I'd been reading about in Psychology Today was too much to swallow without a deviation into something less relevant. Wouldn't it be funny if the topic was attention deficit disorder? It wasn't, but you know, I just finished reading the Jordan Peterson book ("12 Rules...") and he used the phrase "pay attention" 24 times in that book:
A child who pays attention, instead of drifting, and can play, and does not whine, and is comical, but not annoying, and is trustworthy— that child will have friends wherever he goes. (p. 142)....I paid attention to that in part because I remembered something I wrote in my "normblog profile," back in 2004. The question is normblog's:
Aim up. Pay attention. Fix what you can fix. Don’t be arrogant in your knowledge. Strive for humility, because totalitarian pride manifests itself in intolerance, oppression, torture and death. Become aware of your own insufficiency— your cowardice, malevolence, resentment and hatred. Consider the murderousness of your own spirit before you dare accuse others, and before you attempt to repair the fabric of the world. Maybe it’s not the world that’s at fault. Maybe it’s you. You’ve failed to make the mark. You’ve missed the target. You’ve fallen short of the glory of God. You’ve sinned. And all of that is your contribution to the insufficiency and evil of the world. And, above all, don’t lie. Don’t lie about anything, ever. Lying leads to Hell. It was the great and the small lies of the Nazi and Communist states that produced the deaths of millions of people. (p. 195)....
If you pay attention to what you do and say, you can learn to feel a state of internal division and weakness when you are misbehaving and misspeaking. It’s an embodied sensation, not a thought. I experience an internal sensation of sinking and division, rather than solidity and strength, when I am incautious with my acts and words. It seems to be centred in my solar plexus, where a large knot of nervous tissue resides. I learned to recognize when I was lying, in fact, by noticing this sinking and division, and then inferring the presence of a lie.... A totalitarian never asks, “What if my current ambition is in error?” He treats it, instead, as the Absolute. It becomes his God, for all intents and purposes. It constitutes his highest value. It regulates his emotions and motivational states, and determines his thoughts. All people serve their ambition. In that matter, there are no atheists. There are only people who know, and don’t know, what God they serve. (pp. 221-222).
What would be your most important piece of advice about life? > Pay attention.
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55 comments:
"What would be your most important piece of advice about life? > Pay attention. "
that's certainly the most important piece of advice about fishing.
That's the interesting thing. There are many things in fishing and regular life that are the same questions; with the same answers.
This is important, because it means that things you need to know about the more important one, you already know from regular life
You’ve fallen short of the glory of God. You’ve sinned.
(reposted from the end of the dead thread):
Peterson claims that all psychologically healthy people are familiar with Bible stories, which is obviously just nonsense.
"The Bible is a series of books written, edited and assembled over thousands of years. It contains the most influential stories of mankind. Knowledge of those stories is essential to a deep understanding of Western culture, which is in turn vital to proper psychological health (as human beings are cultural animals) and societal stability. These stories are neither history, as we commonly conceive it, nor empirical science. Instead, they are investigations into the structure of Being itself and calls to action within that Being."
I prefer Einstein's opinion of Bible Stories: "childish".
"The structure of Being itself" LOL.
That kinda stuff is why I think he's mostly a shyster mystic (he might believe his own stuff), not because he thinks parents have more influence on children than they probably actually have.
On advice for improvement, it is easier to intellectualize than internalize. For me, that’s an unfortunate experience; but need to keep trying.
Teaching my daughters to drive, I tried to get across that the one most important thing behind the wheel is: pay attention. In life as well.
Fernandistein:
While you are obviously someone of intelligence, you should hesitate to criticize Peterson’s ideas based on these quotes which are very low resolution summaries of hundreds of hours of teaching and analysis. You don’t have all the information to make that judgment.
"A child who pays attention, instead of drifting, and can play, and does not whine, and is comical, but not annoying, and is trustworthy— that child will have friends wherever he goes. "
Is that TEACHING a child how to behave, or just telling those that can't do those things that they're screwed?
I long ago realized that I will not have friends wherever I go, and I'm fine with that.
So what's he saying? My ADD and didn't allow me to make it all the way through the summary.
Blogger Karen said...
Fernandistein:
While you are obviously someone of intelligence
Karen, the only thing she hates worse than Psychology is religion.
What would be your most important piece of advice about life?
Don't be an asshole.
"investigations into the structure of Being" Not necessarily shyster BS. But the key question is, investigations based on which assumptions? In the Bible's case, God and sin figure rather prominently. Which structures Being before the investigation gets started.
Same with "pay attention." Since you can't pay attention to everything, attention to what, in what way? Gotta pick some axioms too.
Of course, you could argue that any choice of axioms is itself arbitrary (or not)--perhaps the meta-question raised by the Bible.
I have no idea what this post is about.
"Is that TEACHING a child how to behave, or just telling those that can't do those things that they're screwed?"
It's telling parents that if they allow children to do things other than that they will be sending their children out into the world basically screwed. Read the whole chapter on Rule 5 — "Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them." It's full of detail on how parents can bring up children that will have qualities that will keep them in contact with other people (and maximize their chances of getting good feedback on how to be a good person throughout their lives).
"children that"
children who
"I have no idea what this post is about."
Have you been paying attention?
Have you been half-asleep? And have you heard voices?
Garfield provides snide commentary on the world around him? Where'd that get his namesake, President Garfield? Nobody needs that.
I have no idea what this post is about.
Sometimes Althouse throws up a melange of ideas/themes/topics that she finds interesting, tacitly inviting commentary on any part and/or all of it.
"paying attention" is valuable advice once you understand what that means.
Paying attention means being conscious of your purchases. Is this something I need or something I want (there's a difference). Does it have value to me, or am I spending money to fill something empty, either time or a lack of love.
Paying attention means examining your relationship with your wife and thinking about how you treat her. Is she finding pleasure in your company? Can you imagine, as you schlep about in your bathrobe, unshaven, and grumpy, her looking at you and wondering "what am I getting out of this?"
Paying attention can mean examining an opponent's argument -- really looking at it -- and wondering if there's something there of value.
Paying attention means getting involved in this world, this moment, this person. It's so easy to run on autopilot or thinking "good enough" is the best you can grab in the limited time we're alive.
"Peterson claims that all psychologically healthy people are familiar with Bible stories, which is obviously just nonsense."
Well, your paraphrase is bad. He said, as you quote
"Knowledge of those stories is essential to a deep understanding of Western culture, which is in turn vital to proper psychological health (as human beings are cultural animals) and societal stability."
I'd say: To get to the best psychological health ("proper"), you need a deep understanding of your own culture (he assumes we are Western), and you don't have that deep understanding without knowing the story of Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel.
Michael K made up another tiresome, stupid lie...
Karen, the only thing she hates worse than Psychology is religion.
Mr. Poopy Head is wrong again.
I'll address Michael K's next four posts in advance:
Mr. Poopy Head is wrong again.
Mr. Poopy Head is wrong again.
Mr. Poopy Head is wrong again.
Mr. Poopy Head is wrong again.
Well, your paraphrase is bad.
That seems to happen a lot when Jordan Peterson is concerned.
Knowing the bible is certainly valuable for enjoying Western Culture. The culture part.
I don't think "pay attention" is useful advice in a general sense, since by default one pays attention to something, and if at times not so much as when one is sleeping there's not much one can do about it without reducing future ability to pay attention, and so practically what on average mostly determines whether one is paying attention to something is whether one is paying attention to something else. Paying attention to others is at times good, yes, but so is paying attention to oneself (e.g., necessary in order to be true to oneself and to be independent) in respect both of recent and past impressions. As for spiritual impressions, e.g., God or beautiful spirits, yes it may be good to pay attention to them also, but it presumably is bad to only pay attention to God or spirits or whatever, because then one is like a slave, and an especially annoying one at that because one is forever seeking oversight. There's a reason tombstones often have RIP on them--if ghosts exist they presumably don't want to be continually pestered/invoked/served with mindless slavishness.
One can hone one's ability to pay attention to particular things, for instance a visual artist might improve his ability to notice visual detail by making art with the right mindset, perhaps enabling him to store the important part of his visual impressions with greater efficiency. I suppose while he is creating art he is focused on trivialities such as for instance the shape, color, etc., of the edge of a flower pot or something else that is largely of no importance whatsoever except in so far as it improves his ability to pay attention to visual impressions. But he could be paying attention to God or Aunt Bertha or honing his ability to pay attention to logical arguments by studying math or to plants by studying botany, etc.
Bill Peschel said...
Paying attention means examining your relationship with your wife and thinking about how you treat her. Is she finding pleasure in your company? Can you imagine, as you schlep about in your bathrobe, unshaven, and grumpy, her looking at you and wondering "what am I getting out of this?"
That's why I leave the bathrobe untied.
Aim up. Pay attention. Fix what you can fix. Don’t be arrogant in your knowledge.
That sounds like Marcus Aurelius:
Blame no one. Set people straight, if you can. If not, just repair the damage.
Sebastian said...
"investigations into the structure of Being" Not necessarily shyster BS. But the key question is, investigations based on which assumptions? In the Bible's case, God and sin figure rather prominently. Which structures Being before the investigation gets started.
I don't know Peterson's religious views, and do not presume to speak for him. But Judaeo-Christian values have had a strong influence on western culture, and you could argue that they are a key to its success. So the Bible can be viewed by a non-believer as a guide to a successful set of values, independent of whether those values were of divine origin or if they just evolved out of human experience over time. The fact that this set of values "works" says something about the structure of Being ( where Being means existing within a society of other humans. )
Karen, do you see why I assume she is a "she?"
I agree that we are always paying attention; the difficulty is to what we are attending. One could specifically say "Watch where you are going when you are driving", which is a refinement of "pay attention" since I am paying attention to what is in front of or behind the car I am propelling. Really, the focus is more "pay attention" to what needs your concentration and thought for your survival and benefit. Sometimes, that is the "outside world", sometimes the "inside" world. For example, one could say that an "ideologue", those pesky people on Facebook for example, are attending far more to their own personal fears and ensuing beliefs than to the "outside" world. Not so simple, really.
@Ignorance: "you could argue that they are a key to its success"
You could, though I take it that Peterson makes a more culturally-specific and individually-oriented argument, to the effect that the Bible stories shape the culture, and that living meaningfully within that culture requires an understanding of how they structure our lives.
Success is a little problematic here. Choosing an intrinsic yardstick, derived from the terms of the culture, always proves the point. Choosing an external, potentially cross-cultural yardstick, like economic success, raises the question how the terms of the culture contributed to it--the West got more "successful" precisely at the time it became less religious, and the UK's advance in particular is only tenuously related to its biblical roots.
Just a religion. A behavioral protocol with an author[ess].
"Strive for humility, because totalitarian pride manifests itself in intolerance, oppression, torture and death."
Well, gilbar..drop those fish stories before you kill us all.
> the West got more "successful" precisely at the time it became less religious
That doesn't graph out very well. Cultures which tried to extrapolate on that idea have proven miserable failures. Certainly the tens of millions of lives lost don't look like success.
I finished the book yesterday. It's really wonderful. Possibly the wisest non-fiction book I've ever read.
It seems that Peterson has been paying attention his whole life -- to the stories of our culture, to the books he's read, to to the patients he's served, to the tragedies in his own life. And he's made an extraordinary effort to integrate all that stuff into one cohesive point-of-view. I just found it to be incredibly inspiring.
But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes
Indeed you're gonna have to serve somebody
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody…
No Dylan tag?
I teach kids "situational awareness" not to "pay attention", that's Mommy's job.
Bible stories are children's stories... that doesn't make them less valuable. The problem with bible stories is that they get weaponized by con men to control sheep.
I heard a long interview with the actor Dax Sheppard some years ago. I didn't really have a feeling for him one way or another -- I guess vaguely negative.
But he did tell a story about his stepfather who apparently would always confront him when he was a teenager with the questions "What are doing right now," by which he meant "always have a sense of what it is you're doing moment to moment."
That advice seems to have influenced the actor, and it's stuck in my mind as well since hearing it.
the West got more "successful" precisely at the time it became less religious
Tell that to the French and Russians who had revolutions and tried to get rid of religion.
Teaching kids using the Socratic method ensures humility. First of all, always tell the truth and speak to them like an adult. Answer questions with a series of questions that breaks down the topic into simple bite-size pieces. Always include uncertainty analysis. In any event, this way lets the kid know that a moron could have figured out the answer, so they are not yet to the level of moron.
When the kids get a little older, purposefully give them bullshit answers and let them tell you you are wrong.
Mike: I think she has a little crush on you... white coats turn her on. She's been bad and Daddy's angry.
Probably worth noting Peterson's other book Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief. It's quaint to see people dismissing his perspective on Bible stories based on their strongly held feelings about the Bible, but people should probably pay better attention to what the Bible actually says than what they remember about it from bad experiences in Sunday School.
Blogger Howard said...
Mike: I think she has a little crush on you... white coats turn her on. She's been bad and Daddy's angry.
Howard, I didn't start it. I still don't know why she is so hostile.
Some people don't like doctors but this goes beyond it.
trumpit I understand and Ritmo is just angry at the world.
It's a mystery.
"That doesn't graph out very well. Cultures which tried to extrapolate on that idea have proven miserable failures. Certainly the tens of millions of lives lost don't look like success."
"Tell that to the French and Russians who had revolutions and tried to get rid of religion."
These are not, umm, logical refutations of the historical claim that "the West got more "successful" precisely at the time it became less religious."
Of course, I yield to no one in my contempt for the depredations wrought by atheist communists.
I knew I put too many "thats" in my comment, but I had to get back to work.
These are not, umm, logical refutations of the historical claim that "the West got more "successful" precisely at the time it became less religious."
When did the West get more successful?
Greece and Rome were arguably the most advanced civilizations of their time. Europe from about the 16th century to modern times had the most successful civilization, but serious secularization didn't begin until the 19th century.
Name a successful civilization (or nation) that was based on atheism.
Things Peterson has repeated in his classes, lectures and speeches that have stuck with me, so far:
Pay attention.
Make your bed and clean your room before you go out and try to change the world.
Never trust a resentful person who wants to change the world.
What is real? Pain! Well at least you act like it is.
When you become self aware, you realize what pain and suffering are. And, when you know what causes pain and suffering in you, you know how to bring pain and suffering to others.
"When did the West get more successful?" In sustained growth: UK late 1700s, thereabouts, a bit later elsewhere.
"Greece and Rome were arguably the most advanced civilizations of their time" A lot can be argued, but not that their advancement was due to biblical roots, the Peterson-related point that started the thread.
The Greeks were quite religious, just not Jews or Christians.
The Romans were less so but still religious. The reason why the Industrial Revolution did not get going earlier has more to do with law, especially property and patent law.
Christianity was more fertile ground than Islam or the religions of the middle east.
China was doing pretty well until the 1400s and regressed severely after that. That regression was political.
"Christianity was more fertile ground than Islam or the religions of the middle east."
Christianity is a religion of the middle east.
Be careful which observations about women you share, better to go with "All women are queens. "
Char Char Binks said...
"Christianity was more fertile ground than Islam or the religions of the middle east."
Christianity is a religion of the middle east.
"...'other' religions of the middle east."
There, fixed it.
Greece and Rome were arguably the most advanced civilizations of their time" A lot can be argued, but not that their advancement was due to biblical roots, the Peterson-related point that started the thread.
The comment I replied to talked of "religion" not "Christianity". My point is not that religion or Christianity caused the advancement of civilization, but rather that an advanced civilization (or society or nation) is impossible without religion.
Every attempt at remaking civilization without the influence of religion has ended in bloody failure.
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