"... perhaps even his own, because rather than simply shielding students from gunfire, he could have drawn his weapon, fired and killed the assailant — putting a tidy end to the rampage. This is absurd. More likely, had Mr. Feis been armed, he would not have been able to draw his weapon (a side arm, presumably) quickly enough to stop the shooter, who with an AR-15 would have had the coach outgunned. Even if the coach had been able to draw his weapon — from where? his athletic shorts? — any shots he managed to fire would have risked being errant, possibly injuring or killing additional students. As some studies have shown, even police officers have missed their targets more than 50 percent of the time. In firing a weapon, Mr. Feis would have only added to the carnage and confusion...."
From "I Was a Marine. I Don’t Want a Gun in My Classroom" by Anthony Swofford (NYT).
February 25, 2018
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«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 546 of 546After Columbine, police tactics with active shooter incidents changed. It was no longer wait for SWAT, set up perimeter, etc. It changed to confront & attack the shooter as quickly as possible. There is a lot of ignorance about this, especially with anti-gun types. They still seem to believe that some sort of military style command and control is used to stop mass shootings. The way you stop a mass shooter is to put bullets on the target, I suppose a civvy could do that in a pinch.
TTR: "So how are the NRA and Hamas different, Drago?"
Oh, I don't know.
Probably the menus at the company picnics I suppose.
Do you have any numbers of kids murdered by NRA members?
Pretty much every one that was gunned down by the permission the NRA granted to his murderer. I believe in strict liability that way. Any reason you can think of for why the gun manufacturers are unique among industries in being granted a special form of legal immunity for the dangers their products have posed and the mayhem they wrought?
"The left disapproves of the entire constitution!! After all, it's, like, over a hundred years old or something!"
This is exactly right. Ritmo and his fellow members of the progressive hive want to scrap the Constitution in favor of the latest socialist bromides they have cooked up under their pussy hats.
Their end game is the confiscation of your guns and the abrogation of your rights. As Americans under our Constitution.
...shit-eaters to complain about the taste after opening your mouths wide and saying "Ahhhh..." to every bad idea under the sun...
You mean, like every bad idea sold to them by the NRA?
$20 says langford peel never read a constitution.
And not just the U.S. Constitution. Any constitution.
He mistook it for his constitutional.
TTR: "Pretty much every one that was gunned down by the permission the NRA granted to his murderer."
Remember, all permission slips must be completed in triplicate.
This "permission" angle will be an interesting one come time for the trial.
I suggest you forward your novel and intriguing legal theory to the killers defense team.
You see, it ONLY appears as if this crazy kid was a killer surrounded by sustained (years long) governmental incompetence.
The reality is that its time for TTR and gang to go The Full OJ and mound an investigation and search for "The Real Killers".
Good luck to you in your quest TTR. (try to avoid Las Vegas jails, I hear they aren't too great)
To be clear, the current boom in gun sales began, perhaps, around 2005-06.
It went to extreme rates of increase @2010 - or at least that seems to have been an inflection point.
The overall "excess" in gun sales, based on per capital rates pre-2005, is about 90 million or so.
Given that these are per purchase, and tracked purchases may cover multiple firearms, I think it's safe to assume that something on the order of 100 million extra firearms have been sold over the last dozen years. This is about double the "normal" number of transaction one would expect with a stable market. And this increase was itself accelerating. The normal rate based on pre-2005 data should be 9-10 million, 2016 was 27 million, and 2017 24 million.
This is an absurd number, a ridiculous number.
It is not tracking any increase in hunting or suchlike.
Nor does it track increasing crime.
TTR: "And not just the U.S. Constitution. Any constitution."
What if one takes a daily constitutional?
Can we grandfather someone in for that?
They both solely define their entire political existence through the lens of armed struggle, do they not?
No, they do not. The only weapons of the NRA are the lawsuit and the ballot. The fact that you can't draw a simple distinction between shooting someone you disagree with and taking him to court shows you are either insane or astoundingly ignorant (though both could be true and likely are.)
People that recklessly supply some likely killers with murder weapons generally don't have immunity.
In the case of firearms, the NRA convinced congress that they should.
Sounds like that's something you're happy with.
I'm not surprised.
Erika said...
Don't worry; Ritmo goes to 11. Hundreds of times in a single thread when he really goes on an Althouse bender!
11/13/12, 7:56 PM
Every attack on the NRA by the gun grabbers results in more members and more people going out to buy more guns and ammunition.
Thank you for your help. Heck of a job Ritmo.
The gun manufacturers thank you. Their profits were down when Trump was elected because most people thought that the gun confiscation party was not in charge. Now they have surged because of the constant attacks of CNN and their menagerie of crisis actors.
Toothless:
The US ranks well behind much of Europe in deaths/population and in frequency of mass shooting events.
Deaths/million(2009-2015)
France .347
Switzerland .142
Finland .138
USA .089
Frequency of mass shooting events/million population
Switzerland .142
Finland .184
France .092
USA .078
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
These shooting incidents tend to bring out the ani-Americanism of the Left, don't they? The Bill of Rights is evil, half or more of their countrymen are evil . . .
TTR: "People that recklessly supply some likely killers with murder weapons generally don't have immunity."
Where the hell is that NRA gun store?!!
Something is wrong with Google maps....
The only weapons of the NRA are the lawsuit and the ballot.
Oh, not only.
They also love deploying the bloody rhetoric of armed struggle.
We hear it all the time. Typically even on this blog.
You know, tyranny is right around the corner. Charlton Heston asked to have their fetish objects pried from his cold dead hands.
Why not just admit that you have a fetish for these things? Just admit it.
The rhetoric is one of bloody armed struggle. The NRA wouldn't have a lobby without it, let alone one as powerful as theirs.
Tyranny paranoia sells well in America. A gun in every hand. And five in every foot.
That's their vision. Pretty soon it won't be enough to train everyone to kill the criminals that predominate in their neighborhood life. They'll have to train everyone to shoot two guns at once in both hands. You know. Because it's not enough to outnumber the criminals; you have to outnumber the number of firearms any one of them can wield at any one time.
We need to increase the pace of this arms race.
TTR: "In the case of firearms, the NRA convinced congress that they should."
Egads!
Citizens petitioning Congress!
Why, I never!!
You know, perhaps we should have the "sort of a God" obama team up with self-described "amazing leadership" Sheriff Israel to tour the country to change that darn Constitution?!!
What a wonderful example they could set for us deplorables!
Hey everybody! Did I miss anything? I just got back from the NRA store!! They got machine guns 2fer 19.99!!!
I haven't seen prices that good since 111/9/2016.
Scoop em up. Sending my grandkid to get me some more, but I'm worried; he just got his driver's license... and if he does something stupid to put a scratch on one of those babies, I won't let him use the car for the prom.
That little turd.
Makes my blood boil, the scamp.
So what's up?
Every attack on the NRA by the gun grabbers results in more members and more people going out to buy more guns and ammunition.
Thank you for your help.
Well we knew that was your aim, all along. You just needed a scapegoat to blame it on.
After all, you're willing to sacrifice kids to the gods of your gun fetish - so personal responsibility is not your side's strong suit.
Unmitigated BS, embarrassingly easy to rebut:
The Capitol Police officers who were providing security for that GOP baseball practice in Arlington, VA, were also only armed with handguns, facing a shooter with a comparable semi-automatic rifle to the one used by the Parkland shooter. By reacting immediately and in coordination, they were able to use fire from their handguns to disrupt the shooter's plans, keep him under cover, and eventually — when joined by Arlington PD police also armed with handguns — to flank and finish him.
Number of innocents accidentally killed by these handgun-armed heroes in blue: ZERO. Number of innocents saved by these heroes: A whole bunch, certainly including Steve Scalise's. Number of bad-guys who won't clog up the court system or ever draw another breath due to these heroic police using their handguns: Exactly one. This is an elegant set of statistics, no?
This supposed Marine genius apparently thinks only a bullet that delivers a kill is useful in a firefight. That's some kind of stupidity or, more likely, outright deceptiveness. He's the guy who I don't want in our classrooms -- likely the soulmate to the cowardly Broward Deputies.
TTR: "They also love deploying the bloody rhetoric of armed struggle"
Oh no!!
Not just the rhetoric of armed struggle, but the "bloody rhetoric of armed struggle"!!
Unleash the Veloci-adjectives!!
It is not tracking any increase in hunting or suchlike.
Nor does it track increasing crime.
People keep forgetting that guns are a good hedge against inflation, especially for those who don't have major assets.
A few years ago, I sold four shotguns that I had not used in years. They sold for ten times what I paid for them.
I'm not saying that is a big factor but it is not zero.
Eric Landgraf said...
Thirdly, your candidates must be constantly trained to make "kill shots". This means deliberately taking a human life. It also means shooting the perpetrator in either the "golden triangle" (i.e. the eyes, nose and mouth) or in the upper central torso (heart, throat and lungs) or in the back of the head or torso if you are approaching from the perpetrator's rear flank."
I've taken gun safety and self defense courses and this is the first I've ever heard of the "golden triangle." Aiming at an attackers head would be extremely stupid, especially from a distance. You are taught to aim center mass, ie at the torso.
More humor will help you forget about those kids, Drago.
I mean, it would if you'd ever given them a second thought. Or even a first.
Which of course you didn't. Politicking is more important to you.
TTR: "Well we knew that was your aim, all along."
Of course! Why else would the NRA have delivered a permission slip to the killer?!
I mean, duh.
Iron-clad logic and sound legal reasoning.
I can't wait to see "the NRA" dragged away in handcuffs.
BTW, do you think the arrest warrant will name Mr Association, or will it be Mr Rifle-Association?
Stop the gun violence against animals. Kill an animal, go to jail.
We are sacrificing kids to your gods of political correctness. Is Cruz had been incarcerated because of his behavior this would not have happened. If the cops and the school had done their job and heeded the warnings they got none of this would have happened.
TTR: "More humor will help you forget about those kids, Drago"
Don't you have more MS-13 members to let into the country? You'd better get busy.
Kate Steinles family thanks you for your humanitarian outlook and virtue signalling.
It's a great comfort, no doubt.
Nor does it track increasing crime.
I accidentally posted the last comment before addressing this point.
Crime rates have fallen as gun ownership has risen.
James Taranto would be asking for Fox Butterfield, the NY Times reporter who remarked on how odd it was that crime fates had fallen as the prison population went up.
Have the lefties nominated the Broward County Deputy Coward for a Congressional Medal of Honor yet?
I wonder what's taking them so long?
Coddled loose cannon gets reported dozens of times and excused/covered up by the school, police, etc for years. The "security" watches and waits until rampage is over. And law abiding NRA is at fault? Sure, go with that.
Nor does it track increasing crime.
What it tracks is the political fortunes of the Democratic Party. When Hilliary Clinton looked to a waltzing to an overwhelming win in 2016, the price of firearms skyrocketed. Though the Democrats promise "gun control", what they seek is gun confiscation, something the courts will not countenance. Therefore any action HRC could have likely taken could only affect sales of new guns during her administration, and not those already in hand by the end user. When Trump won, the bottom fell out of the civilian arms market. Rifles that were selling for $1000 dropped below their wholesale price. Currently, there is a shortage. Manufacturers have found it difficult to meet demand profitably. If the Dems look good to retake Congress in August, prices and demand will balloon once more.
www:
I find it funny that suddenly, when you outline the problem, suddenly you get shy about spending money. This supposed fiscal rectitude never showed up when Obama was in office.
But what is on offer? A number of ways to control the PROBLEM. And the problem is some crazed nobody teen deciding to make a name for himself by going out in a blaze of glory shooting all his school enemies and giving the Lefties the vapors. (Republicans are fine with shooting him and leaving him in an unmarked grave and never mentioning him again. It cuts back on that nonsense in the long run)
But when you are offered a number of perfectly valid fixes: doors, guards, armed teachers, but...alas, don't involve you jumping on the gun rights of ADULTS, well, suddenly you make Ebenezer Scrooge look positively Obamaian in his profligacy.
So not a dollar for safe students, but millions for Planned Parenthood. Got it!
Seems you guys have fondness for using dead kids to push various agendas. This is not a good look for Democrats.
I shouldn't be so hard on that deputy.
To his credit, not a single brick of the building was harmed in any way.
I'm outta here. I'm going to take a shower to go wash off the filthy, Hizbullah-esque adoration of guns that is the chief interest of the NRA-types polluting the thread here.
Go have your little gimp FullMoon repost that over and over again.
So, why are tens of millions of not-so affluent men, or more pertinently, millions of men suffering from unemployment and reduced incomes and career prospects, purchasing @$1000-2000 weapons (probable typical all in investment in weapons accessories and ammunition)
The US public turned armaments into one of the few boom industries 2008-today.
Arms sales were booming as consumer confidence and disposable incomes fell.
Not a good time to be buying toys one would think.
But the unspoken reason here is a serious one.
This is not a good sign, and it's not a good thing.
The vast majority of these things are not held by the public to play with.
It's more like nerve damage as a symptom of diabetes.
Kill an animal, go to jail.
Trumpit wants to arrest kitty cats.
Figures.
Tim: "Coddled loose cannon...."
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!!
According to our lefty betters, you are not even allowed to insult this little murderous ray of sunshine, because it might be stigmatizing!!
Why, that would be like saying Bowe Bergdahl was not a regular Audie Murphy! How dare you sir! How dare you!
Now the lefties will be demanding even more money for counseling for this innocent lad who was led astray by the NRA, Congress, nay, even our very society!
...(cue Otter's speech in Animal House)
TTR: "I'm outta here. I'm going to take a shower to go wash off the filthy, Hizbullah-esque adoration of guns that is the chief interest of the NRA-types polluting the thread here."
If we are so hezbollah-like, why can't we get even ONE of the Redgrave family members to any of our Oppressor Picnics and Barn Dances?
Hmmmm?
Is Cruz had been incarcerated because of his behavior this would not have happened. If the cops and the school had done their job and heeded the warnings they got none of this would have happened.
Right. No room for any error on the part of any cop or school because the NRA that got those manufacturers legal immunity and the paranoia to push for a gun in every hand is exemplary in the amount of responsibility they take. I guess asking for responsibility on the part of armed struggle-tyranny demagogues like the NRA would just not leave them with as potent a rhetorical and psychological stranglehold over America on the part of their filthy propaganda.
Tim said...
. . .
And law abiding NRA is at fault? Sure, go with that.
2/25/18, 3:40 PM
We are talking about people who hold mostly middle aged & white NRA members responsible for the gun crimes committed by young Black and Hispanic men.
White middle aged men, say the libs, have moral agency, while minority kids do not. It's racism, straight out, stamped with the liberals' seal of approval.
US: I'm on fire
CANADA: jump in the water
US: water won't work, i need more fire
UK: we used water when we caught fire
US: it won't work for us we like fire too much
US: I'm burning
AUSTRALIA: here is a video of water putting out fire
US: *stuffs fire in pockets*
hey langford, you stated, in another thread, that Trump doesn't care about gun rights - or words to that effect - because he wasn't around them.
Perhaps you should consider that PDT spent years at a military school. I can't say specifically that his did, but I have never heard of a military academy NOT having extensive training in firearms. 'Extensive' meaning a familiarity with operation and maintenance procedures as well as frequent range qualification.
So, if I remember your position correctly, you may be in for a pleasant surprise.
I'm always such a ray of hope, aren't I?
TTR: "No room for any error on the part of any cop or school..."
LOL
Gee, we only got 45 calls on this kid....plus multiple FBI reports!
THAT'S ALL WE GOT!!!
Everyone knows cops shouldn't get too interested in an armed and potentially dangerous suspect until you've received 50 reports/complaints!
Sheesh people, have a heart. Some of those donut shops don't even open until 8am!
TTR wrote: I'm outta here. I'm going to take a shower...
Every Sunday, whether he needs one or not.
UK: we used water when we caught fire
But they're still on fire...
Man, when your narrative/memes are blowing up in your face (TTR) and not even Jake Tapper is playing the stupid game anymore but you still are....it's time to re-evaluate.
Perhaps after your shower.....
Perhaps TTR and his lefty pals can "cure" the "problem" of the NRA the same way the lefties "cured" "Down Syndrome" in Iceland....
Did TTR leave? Too bad, it makes reading the comments so much faster. Makes you feel productive, too, when you get to the end and see you've read 457 comments in just a couple minutes, all the while conveniently 'forgetting' that you skipped over half of them.
Kindalike having a diet soda and a Mars bar; it's a sham, but you feel better.
"I don't want anybody and everybody to have access to pentobarbital-filled syringes either, and these are vastly less effective killing machines than an AR-15."
Sorry, but a lot more die from the syringes every year. Nationally, long guns are rarely used in homicides. Year in and year out. Partly because handguns are much easier to conceal, and partly because they are easier to commit suicide with.
There were about 800 homicides ruled 'justifiable' in 2015. Prior years more or less hover around that number. About 60% of that number was committed by the police. The remaining were all 'good guys with guns'.
I subtract that number from homicide stats. Too bad there isn't a way to know how many people were saved by those ggwg's.
But who gives a shit about them, anyway?
why are tens of millions of not-so affluent men, or more pertinently, millions of men suffering from unemployment and reduced incomes and career prospects, purchasing @$1000-2000 weapons (probable typical all in investment in weapons accessories and ammunition)
I have not see a good profile of the economics of gun buyers.
My stepson who is a non-college grad building contractor in Oregon has a few guns but is not into large numbers.
His brother-in-law, who builds winery machinery for the wineries in that area is doing very well and has a huge gun collection.
He also restores and collects 1933 Ford Model As. He has six or seven.
These guys are non-college grads who are doing very well economically. Not Eric Schmidt well but pretty well.
I suspect the out of work types are not the buyers.
Maybe the "Millionaire Next Door" types.
Previous poster described a lack of seriousness on the part of authorities in stopping this shit. Notice how Cruz's deterioration did not even get him re-evaluated. He wasn't interdicted, plain and simple. Epic failure there. So why was his brother committed the day after?
The Toothless Revolutionary said...
I'm outta here. I'm going to take a shower to go wash off the filthy, Hizbullah-esque adoration of guns that is the chief interest of the NRA-types polluting the thread here.
Low flow,save the earth shower head, I hope ?
"AUSTRALIA: here is a video of water putting out fire"
Australians (most of my extended family is Australian, these days) are much, and I mean very much, more trusting of their government and society in general than Americans, especially these days. They are rule-followers compared to the US, the Crocodile Dundee image is way out of whack with reality.
And even then their turn-in picked up only a fraction of the guns estimated to be held by the public (I heard @25% of estimates of guns required to be turned in according to the rules). My uncle had a few .303 Enfield sporters, a very common weapon in Australia, and he would head for the bush on occasion to pot a Kangaroo, especially when he was working on the Snowy Mountains hydro project.
His widow still has them, never turned in.
And Aus had an order of magnitude fewer guns in civilian hands PER CAPITA compared to the US.
No, what you need to do before you can enact Australian or Canadian rules is
1. To create a state of social trust like Australia or Canada,
2. or replace white people (by far the biggest gun owners, and the most resistant) to the same degree that has happened in California - which has firearms restrictions easily in the Canadian category, if not more so. There is going to be trouble here. There is already a large smuggling racket from out-of-state, and the worst restrictions only kicked in two months ago.
#2 is one of those processes that does not help #1, social trust.
Gee, we only got 45 calls on this kid....plus multiple FBI reports!
Yep. With all of Trump's hatred for and demoralization of the FBI there's no reason to think that law enforcement wouldn't have all the tools it needs to do a good job.
Britain had gun restrictions long before, severe ones post 1939, and never had a "gun culture" anyway.
Guns were rather rare. The Dunblane business affected very few in an already highly regulated system.
You will find a similar case all over Europe, most of which has had strict gun laws for centuries. Spain since the middle ages.
Squeaky clean cowardly climate hysteric lives up to promise:
TOOTHLESS Ritmo Brasileiro said...
It's good to know that the stupidest threads are just ripe for the threadjacking. I'll be sure to leave a trail of turds on every one of the brain droppings here that suit my fancy. Getting you shit-eaters to complain about the taste after opening your mouths wide and saying "Ahhhh..." to every bad idea under the sun is very satisfying, I must admit.
10/16/10, 10:28 AM
I actually had an on-point comment or two to make on this thread, but instead I walked the dog. And in the blink of an eye (walk) Ritmo has shat the thread. Soo tired of this.
Even so, his Cruz not not held to account because of Trump demoralizing the FBI (and Broward County for good measure) takes the cake.
“But the unspoken reason here is a serious one.
This is not a good sign, and it's not a good thing.
The vast majority of these things are not held by the public to play with.
It's more like nerve damage as a symptom of diabetes.”
I think that you have a good point there, that the level of gun buying that we have seen over the last decade or so is symptomatic oft some serious underlying issues. I see it as resistance to the left wing progressive/statist/socialist direction that our country has been headed during that time. You get the feeling sometimes that the left is trying to force their version of reality, their policy choices, down the throats of the rest of the country at the point of a gun (through state action). If they don’t have the votes to do so, they will just import enough illegals here, and pay them (via welfare) to vote the way that they are told. BLM, white privilege, male privilege, cis privilege, etc. “Undocumented” trans lesbians weren’t what made this country great. It was predominantly mostly Christian whites, and esp white males. The Dems seem willing to do anything for power, even if that means destroying the fabric of our society with unassimilating immigrants, single parenting, eliminating religion, etc. This is why Trump was elected. And, why, I think, that gun sales went through the roof with Obama in the White House, and his Administration effectively making being a white male Christian close to illegal. And electing Crooked Hillary would have mean four more years of Making America Shitty Again.
As a note - I did my part. I purchased another handgun the day before the election. Mostly, I think, because I expected her Administration to be even more draconian in terms of firearm regulations. Sure, even a Dem Congress wouldn’t have passed any new gun laws, but we saw with Obama how far a Dem President could push regulations, far beyond what was legally supportable.
There is already a large smuggling racket from out-of-state, and the worst restrictions only kicked in two months ago.
I have read that smuggling guns in Australia has been a booming enterprise.
My impression was that Britain had shotguns and there were not many rifles.
The gun ban thing just stirs up gun sales.
Aussies used to have a reputation as independent. I think there are still some left in Queensland.
If you're not willing to defend yourself or your students from what you consider a "grave concern", then maybe Teaching isn't for you. The world needs ditch-diggers.
Even so, his Cruz not not held to account because of Trump demoralizing the FBI (and Broward County for good measure) takes the cake.
Goofy Revolutionary Logic: Trump hurt their feelings so they responded by retroactively failing to do their job
But if course:
http://dailycaller.com/2018/02/25/sheriff-scott-israel-past-handling-mass-shooting/?utm_source=site-share
TTR announces: I'm outta here. I'm going to take a shower
High time, TTR. High time. The stench is overpowering.
With the current focus on the FBI [i.e. neglecting to follow up on the highly detailed Tipline warning re Nikolaus Cruz and Peter Strzok's being so busy at work he ha time to send 50,000 text messages to his mistress], it was good to hear that the FBI has the resources to record 3,000 hours of phone calls to investigate college basketball coaches. Kudos to whoever sets the FBI's priorities.
Self Described Ladies Man Ruthless Evolutionary up until 11:pm commenting on Saturday nights Clinton thread.
No dates for the lonely heart.
HaHa SAD!
> Some of those donut shops don't even open until 8am!
Heh, I still remember taking an early dawn walk down to the riverside park one summer in NYC, up around 170 street on the West side. The park was an amazing sight, it was absolutely covered with parked police cars with the lights off.
It's amazing the amount of material a well-fed troll can produce.
@tcrosse, you trying to invite him back?
Glancing through this thread reminds me of the arguments against concealed carry. "You can't allow concealed carry! Normally law-abiding citizens will reach for their guns at the slightest provocation and it'll be like the Old West!!!"
Or in this case: "You can't allow schools to defend themselves! They'll kill the students by mistake!!"
TTR announces: I'm outta here. I'm going to take a shower
High time, TTR. High time. The stench is overpowering.
He was back in four minutes. Quick rinse-n-hold.
@tcrosse, you trying to invite him back?
God, no ! Did he ever wait for an invitation ?
I haven't had time to read the comments. But this former Marine is insane. He might think he doesn't want a gun, but if he were in that situation he would be glad he had one.
"Mr. Feis would have only added to the carnage and confusion". I just don't see how anyone with a brain could say that. He might have made things slightly worse, or he might have saved seventeen lives - a good deal. Or the murderer might not have shown up at all if he knew that people on campus were armed.
TTR: "Yep. With all of Trump's hatred for and demoralization of the FBI there's no reason to think that law enforcement wouldn't have all the tools it needs to do a good job"
LOL
Many of the calls were received long before Trump became President.
Unfortunately for TTR, history did not begin anew on January 20, 2017.
It's all Trump's fault.
Of course, this isn't the first time something was missed by our intrepid folks at the obama politicized FBI.
"Following the 2016 Pulse Nightclub shooting in Orlando, Fla., the FBI acknowledged that it had conducted a 10-month investigation into shooter Omar Mateen three years earlier after the shooter had made inflammatory remarks to colleagues at a Florida courthouse where he worked as a armed security guard.
Mateen had been interviewed three times before the case was closed.
In 2015, Comey acknowledged that Dylann Roof should not have been able to purchase the gun police say he used in the Charleston, S.C., church massacre.
Comey said an arrest record detailing Roof's past drug arrest by the Columbia, S.C., Police Department was not included in materials reviewed by the FBI's National Instant Check System, which performs criminal background investigations on gun purchasers in 30 states. The contents of the record, the FBI director said, would have prohibited the the shooter's purchase of the .45-caliber handgun allegedly used in the church attack, which left nine dead."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/16/fbi-failed-pursue-january-tip-parkland-school-shooter-suspect/345571002/
Stupid USA Today! Didn't they get the word that these things only happen because Trump dared criticize the folks who attempted and continue to attempt a coup?
You know why the FBI missed all these many, many, many terrorist attacks and mass shooters in years prior to 2017?
Donald J Trump.
And the NRA.
Just ask TTR/OJ Simpson. They'll tell you who the real killers are.
Possibly also high cholesterol. And Global Warming.
The hardest part about being an FBI agent in the era of Trump is getting the Way Back Machine to function properly so you can go back and screw up investigations prior to Trump becoming President.
Well, that and what you think you'll want to wear to Hillary's Victory Party.
If you polled all of the light weapons infantrymen in Viet Nam (or Iraq or Afghanistan) and talked to only those who had been shot at (and survived) you'd find that a whole bunch of them and punched the other guy(s) tickets. People shoot--they miss--people shoot back, sometimes they miss, sometimes they hit. There are lots of different ways those scenarios turn out.
Guys have been shot have been known to keep on shooting until the other guy is down.
Life--and shooting at others---is messy.
The US is a pike when it comes to mass shootings defined as:
four or more people killed in a public place, and not in the course of committing another crime, and not involving struggles over sovereignty.
We are #11 (0.089/mm) among European countries and Canada. Behind Norway (#1 at 1.88), France (0.347), Switzerland, Finland, Belgium and others. For years 2009-2015.
You know what those countries have in common? Gun control laws.
Worst school massacre in the US was in Bath Michigan and killed 38 children and 4 adults and injured 50 more. In 1927. He did not use an AR-15, he used dynamite.
As for wonderful Australia, look how well they have done since disarming their citizenry, at least the law abiding members, a few years back. They've had 3 since 1911. If they were the population of the US, that would be 42, where we had 29.
Tell me again how safe Oz is.
John Henry
Or the murderer might not have shown up at all if he knew that people on campus were armed.
Nope. Unpossible.
I've been shamed for even remotely suggesting such a thing.
It's poppycock.
PackerBronco said...
Glancing through this thread reminds me of the arguments against concealed carry. "You can't allow concealed carry! Normally law-abiding citizens will reach for their guns at the slightest provocation and it'll be like the Old West!!!"
I actually had a lib tell me that C&C was bad because people would hear a firecraker go off or a car backfire & a dozen people would draw their guns and start shooting.
What kind of world do liberals think that we inhabit?
"I Was a Marine. I Don’t Want a Gun in My Classroom"
Telling word there -- "WAS". I'm late here, so I'm sure it's already been noted, but for a real Marine, once a Marine, always a Marine. For a true Marine, there is no "was."
"I Was a Marine. I Don’t Want a Gun in My Classroom"
Not wanting to cast doubt on Anthony Swofford's credentials, I believe he was a Marine. But I think he must be pretty untypical.
All the marines I knew were very comfortable around guns, lots of them were cops or had cc permits. Also, former Marines call themselves former Marine.
> But I think he must be pretty untypical.
I have known would be writers who joined the service for the experience, because Hemingway, Mailer, James Jones. I have no idea what Swafford's motivation was.
Visiting the range frequently to keep your skills up does get expensive. If I owned a range, I'd offer a substantial discount to teachers.
Swofford is saying "was a Marine" like it is no longer part of his DNA, not something he is proud about. Wondering why? Am I mind reading?
But as horrendous and enraging as Parkland was, it's not by itself the best basis for arming tens of thousands of teachers or declaring a general lack of confidence in cops. If well-armed, well-trained cops can't protect us, isn't it naive to imagine teachers can?
I don't give a shit if it is naïve or not. I just think I deserve the chance to defend my self and my students since the government has proved it can't and it won't even try.
When Trump won, the bottom fell out of the civilian arms market.
Cabela's is showing a 5.56 Smith&Wesson at $700. I think I'm buying tomorrow.
@John Henry, of course Australia is unsafe. Every animal there is trying to kill you. The Sydney funnel web spider, the world’s only venomous octopus, the largest crocodiles, Box Jellyfish, a bunch of the world’s most venomous snakes, Great White sharks, a cone shell so venomous that you barely have time to take a step between being stung and being dead. And now thus government has turned gun running into a lucrative but fairly safe form of crime.
So how are the NRA and Hamas different, Drago?
I don't believe that the NRA has come out against the existence of Israel yet...have they?
I used to think arming teachers was madness. But given the dismal performance of the police in Florida, I'm beginning to think that having a small number of carefully screened and well-trained individuals carry isn't such a bad idea. I think it ought to be up to the parents and teachers whether that happens.
But I also think that the "gun violence restraining orders" (which enable the police to confiscate firearms that some nutcase has access to) are very good ideas as well.
Swofford was deployed during papa Bush's war. Wrote book Jarhead, also made into movie. During baby Bush's war. Post 9/11.
@madAsHell, if you are determined to go 5.56 then consider also the Ruger mini-14 ranch rifle. Still semiautomatic, but the stock is wood so it doesn’t scare the dum-Dems as much.
There's almost no chance you're going to get elementary, jr. or high school students running en mass towards a man with a semi-automatic.
Back when I was teaching eighth grade religious education, the Virginia Tech shooting happened. Not being able to avoid talking about it, we did, after some prayers for the deceased, injured and their families.
Anyway, I told them that they needed to think about what they would do in a shooting situation and they needed to decide what it was they would do. Because in the heat of the moment there would be no time to figure it out. So we went down the list of all possible courses of action: jump out the window and run away, lock the door and hide under desks -- and in both of those options, listen to the gunfire as other students were being killed -- or they could prepare to defend themselves or defend others.
Look around the classroom, find something that could be used as a weapon -- scissors, pens, heavy objects -- or if need be, simply rush any shooter with their bodies. The students understood that these defensive actions (or going on the offensive) could very well get them killed. But they would save the lives of other people. At Virginia Tech, one professor did exactly that, blocking the shooter from entering a room, thereby allowing many students to escape. He gave his life so they could have theirs. And, of course, this being religious ed, we remembered what Jesus said, "There is no greater love than to give one's life for another."
Let me tell you -- there were quite a few students in that class who were quite ready to do what it took to stop a shooter, even at the cost of their own lives.
Those thick(enned) text books should be as good as kevlar for body armor too.
Reading through a few hundred comments, it's seems an intellectual debate of who should do what, when, and where when faced with a life threatening crisis wins the day.
I find it odd that some think saving your own life should be left to the professionals. Civilians are flawed- After all, man is flawed, and will undoubtedly harm the innocent. Yet, other men are without flaw, and will not. After all, they care more about saving your life than you do, and will do so with impeccable efficiency.
Probably too late in this thread for a reasonable question but....
Since the two sides are not going to reach any agreement on this, why not allow school districts to establish "concealed carry" campuses and "gun free" campuses just like they have "magnet" schools? Those who wish to provide their own self defense can risk the accidents at the concealed carry campus and those who fear guns in any form can go to the gun free. At the concealed carry campus, a guy like the parkland shooter would be treated like the NRA wants i.e. disciplined and tagged so he couldn't buy or carry a gun. At the gun free campus, he would be treated like he was in Broward County.
That way the "marine" gets his wish and the NRA guys get their wish. Nobody forces their views on the other, each gets to choose. The "marine" can occasionally volunteer to provide "security" at his campus and properly credentialed NRA guys can drop in to provide security on their campus.
oldmanrick use very bad word ,,,choose,,, very bad word.
Toothless, you're off your meds. Again.
The public schools are already prisons.
Badly secured, undisciplined prisons.
And I hated Sig Sauers, cheap plastic crap that didn't fit my smallish hands.
My favorite hand guns are CZs.
EMyrt, the best gun for you is the gun you're most comfortable shooting. I like Glocks and Sig Sauers. I have no experience with CZs.
Holy cow... very few times I've seen the number of commentaritations reach 500.
I tell you what's going on.
This is just how Scott Adams describes Trump's negotiating strategery.
Trump's starts out at an extreme end of an issue and then thru negotiations ends up where common sense dictates he should be at.
is all strategery.
What are the common elements to all these shootings? Fatherless boys, mood altering drugs, and schools. The boys get the drugs to quiet them down in schools. How about banning schools or at least public schools?
It's a good thing those sheriff's deputies wisely chose not to bring more guns to the shooting inside the school. Think of the resulting extra carnage! They should get raises, promotions, and medals.
My favorite hand guns are CZs.
Same here. The best full-size service weapon made, IMHO.
"Swofford was deployed during papa Bush's war. Wrote book Jarhead, also made into movie."
That explains a lot. I remember that book snd how it trashed real Marines.
why not allow school districts to establish "concealed carry" campuses and "gun free" campuses just like they have "magnet" schools? Those who wish to provide their own self defense can risk the accidents at the concealed carry campus and those who fear guns in any form can go to the gun free. At the concealed carry campus, a guy like the parkland shooter would be treated like the NRA wants i.e. disciplined and tagged so he couldn't buy or carry a gun. At the gun free campus, he would be treated like he was in Broward County.
Because that would produce "evidence" of "disparate results" that would be unfavorable to the Left.
Exiled, sorry to be snarky about Sigs, but they were talked up when I first learned to shoot (in my 50s!) and I never saw what the hype was about.
Ditto Glocks.
Glad I got to try many models before finding what worked for me.
Dr Z has his 1911s, which I can shoot, but not comfortably.
Hey, Questor, glad to hear it.
Finding CZ was like coming home, with a great fit for my hands and fine price performance ratio.
And the Rami subcompact is the perfect Natasha Fatale gun.
How about an experiment in the other direction ...
Instead of grabbing guns, every household is required to have gun. With penalty for those who object to keep arms a la individual mandate,
Discuss.
Two headlines on NBC News web site:
1. In bipartisan trend, Washington state advances bill to abolish Death Penalty.
2. 18 women sentenced to death in Iraq for joining ISIS.
I've got big hands so I prefer a 1911.
There was a time when terrorist gunmen targeted Israeli schools, now they use rockets. Care to guess why?
“Terrorist gunmen” in Israel — since nearly all such come from beyond the frontier in Palestinian Gaza or the West Bank — are kept out of Israeli schools and other parts (neighborhoods, homes) of Israel principally by two things: First, the (Israeli) Wall.
Beyond that, constant and diligent efforts to find and destroy surreptitious tunnels under that wall which Palestinian terrorists from the other side are constantly building on almost an industrial scale. (And oh, by the way — the Obama administration provided Gaza Hamas with the cement supplies needed to construct them.)
While I’m sure having one or more motivated and trained armed soldiers/security guards on-site at every school (and other critical installations) in Israel assists in their overall security, nonetheless I think it’s obvious that even with those guards in place some schools (and other institutions) would have been thoroughly and murderously shot up by now except for that Wall and the security that makes it work.
As for the continuing severe danger to Israel from terrorist tunnels snaking under the Wall, see this news piece from a couple of years back.
With regard to the point about cement supplies to Gaza mentioned above, as the foregoing piece reports (quoting…):
[T]he Obama administration reneged on its promise to ensure cement entering Gaza would be used to repair war-damaged homes.
“Thanks to former State Department official Dennis Ross, we now know what happened to all those US promise,” [journalist Stephen M. Flatow] writes. “‘I argued with Israeli leaders and security officials, telling them they needed to allow more construction materials, including cement, into Gaza so that housing, schools, and basic infrastructure could be built,’ Ross disclosed. ‘They countered that Hamas would misuse it, and they were right.’”
(/unQuote)
What do you think T's quick draw and accurately fire his G42 from its holster, in his back armor score is where he has to discriminate between good and bad pop-ups? How much time does he spend practicing with the SS in the basement range? Besides it's more fun than golf. There's nothing like an armed high value client to help guards and their families sleep at night, even though they'll likely be killed or injured, when they know they are not the last line of defense, one more nightmare gone for that guard. There are always failures and evil, Where do you think the comment about shoot someone in central park came from? Because like most everything else he says he could.
We have to face the fact that Pumpkin Spice is a paid Russian agent that is not interested in anything beyond his navel and only sowing foment for his Kremlin master.
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"I find it odd that some think saving your own life should be left to the professionals. Civilians are flawed- After all, man is flawed, and will undoubtedly harm the innocent. Yet, other men are without flaw, and will not. After all, they care more about sa"
I think that it is telling that so many politicians and celebrities who tell you to trust the cops to protect your life themselves have armed security.
Another part of this ties into a discussion we had several hundred comments ago about the political climate in this country. The left in this country believes in big government. Some naïvely believe that government experts can better plan the world and the rest of our lives. Their leaders, by and large, know better, and are in it for the money and the power. You just have to look at the Clintons, feeling our pain, from taking tax write offs for donating their used underwear to > $100 million, plus a $billion$ in their foundation. Bill's VP, AlGore may have done even better. Finestein and Pelosi too have done as well, diverting some of the graft to their husbands.
Our discussion earlier was about how the political climate has been driving gun sales. Part of it is fear that the Dems will take their guns away, and if this last week is any indication, that fear is completely justified. But I think that it is also a political statement. Buying guns, in many cases, is a vote against big government. Against progressive politicians and politics, telling them that they will never control you, as they so desperately want to. An armed citizenry is the final defense against a tyrannical government. Everyone , on both sides of the debate, knows this. That is why the left so desperately wants to disarm the civilian populace, so that they, and their friends, cronies, and supporters (including many of the criminal class) have a monopoly of power. And why the rest of us support gun rights, and the more zealous of us are buying more and more guns. For the most part, I don't think that it is criminals that we worry about, or at least the type of criminal who can expect to go to prison if caught. Rather, much more to be feared is the type of criminal who can come within several thousand votes of the Presidency after blatantly committing literally thousands of felonies with impunity. The Obama Administration probably stole better than a $Trillion$ from the American public to give to their cronies and families during their eight years, and weaponized the IRS, DoJ and FBI in order to perpetuate their hold on power, to keep the power in their own hands and to keep the money rolling in. Of course, these weren't the only agencies. We saw the BLM SWAT team dispatched to help round up the cattle that strayed near the solar panels owned by a client of Harry Reid's oldest son. All sorts of agencies now have SWAT teams and armed agents. And part of the ammunition shortage a couple years ago was apparently the federal govt buying billions of rounds of handgun ammo. The Feds under Obama were militarizing, and a large number of the citizens who are supposed to be their bosses were arming up even faster in response.
There really are two Americas now. There is the one that greatly distrusts government, that follows all the twists and turns of the DoJ and FBI investigations, that would string up Lois Lerner if they could, who get their news from Rush, Fox News, talk radio, and the Internet. And the other America, blithely unaware of the rampant corruption in our governments, who get their news from the MSM and late night comedians, if they get it at all. Or, they just don't care. The CNN "town hall" was aimed at the latter, and maybe some of the few in the middle. It was completely stage managed, down to the scripting of the questions, for just one thing - to advance the cause of disarming the American citizenry, so that those who control the government have a monopoly of power in this country. And it was well done. Much of America will just remember the high schoolers, after losing friends and teachers, screaming in anguish for change. They likely don't know that Sheriff Israel was lying through his teeth while up on the stage, that his deputies had dozens and dozens of runins with the shooter before his rampage, and did nothing, and that four of his deputies were on the scene before the shooting stopped (one was already therewhen it started), but did nothing, hiding safely outside until officers from another jurisdiction arrived and entered the school building first. And even fewer probably realize that that the reason that the shooter could buy his gun was that the Sheriff, in order to maintain his own power, and to maximize income from Obama DoJ grants, decriminalized violent criminal behavior in order to achieve racially equal arrest and conviction statistics. (And the left wonders why we won't give up our guns).
Narayanan Subramanian said...
"How about an experiment in the other direction ...
Instead of grabbing guns, every household is required to have gun. With penalty for those who object to keep arms a la individual mandate,
Discuss."
More than a third of the population is already armed. I don't see how forcing anyone to exercise a right is lawful.
I suspect that a good portion-maybe half-of the leftists calling for gun control have a firearm or two at home. It can't be all conservatives buying them.
More people with firearms increases the chance that someone will fight back. Depending on one guard doesn't work if it turns out he is a coward. We just learned that.
If you don't want firearms in schools, I understand that. You can't solve mass shootings by taking away firearms rights for everyone. The public won't go for that. What I'd suggest is limiting media coverage so murderers aren't notorious. I'd also look at why almost all school shooters have divorced parents, and most live with their mothers.
John Lynch said...
You can't solve mass shootings by taking away firearms rights for everyone. The public won't go for that.
Both statements are incorrect.
They've been right for 50 years.
I suppose we could lower the murder rate by suspending some other Bill of Rights amendments, especially the 4th. I imagine that speech causes some murder, so the 1st needs to be limited, too.
Either the 2nd is a individual right, or it's not, and if it isn't you need to show why it isn't. Scholarship has failed to do this. People who keep pushing the idea that somehow this one amendment is different are being dishonest. Enough time has passed that the idea that it's a collective right is totally discredited, and if you won't admit it you are past the statute of limitations for ignorance. It's partisan hack territory now. Honest gun controllers call for the repeal of the 2nd. OK, that's fine, now do it.
Some background: my father was at UT when Charles Whitman went nuts and started murdering people. My dad had to hide in a bush. He was led to safety by the groundskeeper that later led the cops to the tower basement so they could get inside and kill Whitman. If Whitman had noticed my Dad, I wouldn't be here.
My father never became a gun control activist. He also volunteered for the draft in 1967. Make of this what you will.
No one has tried taking away firearms from everyone in this country. In countries where this is largely true, mass shootings are vastly rarer.
A majority or people in this country favor more restrictions on gun ownership.
As long as it isn't a right you care about, and it has some good, then it's OK to take it away?
I vote to suspend your 1st Amendment rights, then.
ARM shows up with more lies.
Fascists do that I guess.
"A majority or people in this country favor more restrictions on gun ownership."
Ditto abortion. But gun ownership is guaranteed by the bill of rights, and abortion isn't. Weird, huh?
But I also think that the "gun violence restraining orders" (which enable the police to confiscate firearms that some nutcase has access to) are very good ideas as well.
Depending upon who decides what constitutes a 'nutcase'. I could foresee a scenario in which 'wrongthink' is called 'mental illness'.
NRA didn't kill these kids. Hollywood did.
“I vote to suspend your 1st Amendment rights, then”
They really should have reversed the order here of the Amendments. The Declaration of Independence pointed out that we are endowed by our creator with the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The 2nd Amdt protects the first, while most of the rest of the Bill of Rights protect the second. Without life, liberty is meaningless. Which is why self-defense is, maybe, the most fundamental right there is. And, why Heller found that the 2nd Amdt protected an individual right - essentially the right of self-defense, to life itself.
“Either the 2nd is a individual right, or it's not, and if it isn't you need to show why it isn't. Scholarship has failed to do this. People who keep pushing the idea that somehow this one amendment is different are being dishonest. ”
I think that the collective rights argument is a very hard argument to make now, esp after Justice Scalia tied the 2nd Amdt to the inalienable, natural, right to life, and, thus, to self-defense. So what you have instead are opponents like ARM trying to bypass the issue by pointing at polls that show that a majority want gun control. But, of course, that is irrelevant. But does illustrate why the 2nd Amdt is so fundamental to our freedoms in the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was not enacted to give the majority its say, but, rather, just the opposite, to protect a minority from the majority.
Sigh, a bit of history, reals pearls before real swine.
The NRA supports background checks. They were one of the key proponents of the current system. To be honest that was likely in response to the universal wait periods.
BUT they wanted:
All relevant agencies to supply the needed data (note the USAAF failure)
They wanted adjudicated mentally ill added, often missed,
They wanted to make sure all convicted felons were included, and
They wanted enforcement of those violating the law discovered by the background checks (the numbers are DISMAL, i.e. no deterrence at all).
They DO oppose things like a father passing a gun to his son being required to go through a FFL check.
By the way, there are numerous states already allowing armed teachers. I am not aware of the wave of accidental shootings that followed... anyone?
“Either the 2nd is a individual right, or it's not, and if it isn't you need to show why it isn't. Scholarship has failed to do this. "
No. You've failed to research it. The documentation that it is an individual right is extensive.
Either the 2nd is a individual right, or it's not, and if it isn't you need to show why it isn't. Scholarship has failed to do this
Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution is all the proof you need.
First of all it gives the Congress the power to issue letters of Marque and Reprisal. This power would be meaningless if private individuals were not allowed to own modern military vessels armed with modern individual and crew served weapons.
Secondly, it creates and organizes the militia. Thus the Second Amendment is not about creating a militia, that had already been done.
But Gahrie. They just want "reasonable" regulations.
You want to be reasonable don't you?
It's interesting that we've gotten to "let's arm the teachers" as a suggestion of what to do in these scenarios, because it seems kind of extreme and last-ditch, but that seems to be where we are these days. However:
Common sense things like enforcing the laws and rules we already have doesn't work if the enforcing agencies won't do it. It represents systematic failures in law enforcement, school systems, etc.
Common sense cultural issues that cause young people to turn to violence seems to be passed over as well--I guess we can't make laws or policy about such unsexy things as parenting and behavior, or cultural expectations of children. (I have lots of thoughts about the cultural aspects of this issue, but this thread may not be the place for them)
Since we can't talk about these things it seems, or have obviated ourselves from dealing with them, we get to talk about things which seem ridiculous on their faces. If we had exhausted all these other options, talking about arming and armoring schools wouldn't seem so crazy. I feel like we're missing so much we could be doing to save kids, but that involves caring, hard work, consistency, discipline, and other un-fun things that require work. (I'm sure some of you have raised awesome humans. As a cultural trend, though, I fear this is not the case)
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I thought Marines were supposed to be staunch 2A defenders.
I thought Marines were supposed to be staunch 2A defenders.
They do swear an oath to protect it.
The stupidity in this article is enraging. The author would condemn brave people to death rather than see them have the ability to successfully defend themselves.
It doesn't take specops training to be sufficient... just ask the Viet Cong, the Afghans, etc. Any person who has the desire can learn how to shoot a handgun sufficiently well to hit a basketball with the contents of a cylinder or magazine firing a shot per second. Unlike the author's shamefully stupid example, that coach was athletic, coordinated, and motivated enough to prevail.
I don't understand why anyone would prefer or prescribe helplessness and hopelessness in the face of evil. It must be due to arrogant elitism (I'm better than most of you), or fear. Neither justifies sacrificing others' lives.
"Secondly, it creates and organizes the militia. Thus the Second Amendment is not about creating a militia, that had already been done."
The right of the people to defend themselves exists. By this right they are armed. Therefore a militia exists.
This right is not awarded to the people by government. It is the individuals right ex-government. It cannot be taken away except by force.
He called the AR an assault rifle, what an idiot.
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