November 21, 2017

Seeking the "purity" of "younger women."

Talking Points Memo quotes what Pastor Flip Benham said on the radio last night:
"Judge Roy Moore graduated from West Point and then went on into the service, served in Vietnam and then came back and was in law school. All of the ladies, or many of the ladies that he possibly could have married were not available then, they were already married, maybe, somewhere. So he looked in a different direction and always with the [permission of the] parents of younger ladies. By the way, the lady he’s married to now, Ms. Kayla, is a younger woman. He did that because there is something about a purity of a young woman, there is something that is good, that’s true, that’s straight and he looked for that.”
Audio at the link. The discussion continues, with Benham, under questioning from the show hosts, saying that it is acceptable for a man to "court" a 14-year-old girl if he has her parent's permission.

I'm interested in the appeal to the value of "purity," because I've been reading Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion," which posits 5 foundations of moral reasoning, one of which is sanctity/degradation. Haidt has studied how conservatives and liberals do moral reasoning, and liberals stick to only 2 of the 5 foundations — care/harm and fairness/cheating — which is why they have a terrible time understanding (and appealing to) conservatives, who use all 5. (The other 2 are loyalty/betrayal and authority/subversion.)
The Sanctity/degradation foundation evolved initially in response to the adaptive challenge of the omnivore’s dilemma, and then to the broader challenge of living in a world of pathogens and parasites. It includes the behavioral immune system, which can make us wary of a diverse array of symbolic objects and threats. It makes it possible for people to invest objects with irrational and extreme values—both positive and negative—which are important for binding groups together.
Of course, to the liberal mind, the idea that there's "something about a purity of a young woman, there is something that is good, that’s true, that’s straight" just sounds horribly sexist. And I find it hard to believe that liberals don't think about purity too. They just aim their thoughts at the impurity of the older man — the creep — who's going after young girls. His interest in their purity is impure. 

67 comments:

Unknown said...

It's the old chivalrous bit that Christianity employed: Women are important and worthwhile, and therefore the male should protect them and keep them safe.

Modern leftists think women aren't important or worthwhile, so it's ok to degrade and demean them. And have them kill their children, so they can participate in more degrading and demeaning activities.

By the way, most conservatives aren't too keen on guys chasing every girl they see either, just for the record.

--Vance

Jim said...


Saw the new Picasso exhibit at KC’s Nelson. Found out 46 yo Picasso was boning his 17 yo model. I don’t think he made an honest woman out of her and I don’t see people hating on Pablo, who was never called an asshole. If I’m ever going to understand cubism it will be because of this exhibit. Check it out if you’re in KC.

tim in vermont said...

He is a creep, or was a creep a long long time ago, and by last months rules, the other guy is a racist who said in an ad that 'there were very fine people on both sides of the Civil War."

If this was really about keeping him personally out of the Senate, they could have released the story earlier than the exact day that he could no longer be replaced on the ballot. This is a power play for a Senate seat, nothing more, and the same people who were able to live with Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy have zero credibility on this, so looking for deeper meanings behind their reaction to Moore is pointless.

It is utterly partisan.

walter said...

Somehow..it never occurred to me that the guys who waited in their Trans-Ams in the high school lot around 3pm were seeking purity.

rhhardin said...

There's a good book on Picasso and his models, and how his relationship changed over his lifetime, in his drawings.

The Artist, His Model, Her Image, His Gaze : Picasso's Pursuit of the Model by Karen L. Kleinfelder.

It's online but without the very necessary illustrations, and too expensive used. Look in university libraries.

She comes to a woman's conclusions which is obviously not right but it's a good read.

Mr Wibble said...

I'm in my mid-thirties and trying to date is frustrating, so I can understand Moore's decision to look towards younger women. Women in their early thirties are for the most part either married or in long-term relationships. The ones who are single by and large have serious defects (obese, personality disorders, career-obsessed, etc.) or are single-mothers.

D said...

I though Lenin boiled down the reasoning part of the New 20th Century Man to "who/whom"

Mr Wibble said...

Somehow..it never occurred to me that the guys who waited in their Trans-Ams in the high school lot around 3pm were seeking purity.

They aren't. Or, they are, but for different reasons than Moore, who wasn't hanging around the high-school lot at 3pm.

rhhardin said...

Purification is achieved by the use of scapegoats, a theme of Kenneth Burke's, who saw no hope for humanity with that tendency.

Adolph Guggenbuhl-Craig says the innocence of the child is a partial archetype that produces pure villians as a grammatical reaction and hence the pedophile hysteria.

Let the child learn to take responsibility for her part in stuff, to encourage rather than blocking growing up. The hysteria blocks growing up and so damages victims.

rcocean said...

Moore married his wife when she was 24 and he was 38.

BTW, Bogie was 24 years older than Bacall. Jackie O was 12 years younger than JFK. Chaplin was 54 when he married his last wife - who was 18.

The May-December romances only seem "Creepy" when its someone the Left dislikes.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it, its less the age DIFFERENCE than the absolute age of the man and woman.

Jim said...

Rhardin thanks. This exhibit has his collection of “primitive “ masks and shows their influence. It is very good and I wasn’t a fan going in.

Real American said...

lefties don't just think that it is sexist. It's more that they don't want to be judged. If being a virgin is "pure" then being a ho is the opposite. Feminists that promote promiscuity don't use lack of purity as a big talking point. Sure, you'll be "empowered", but there are social consequences. Liberalism has spent the better part of the last 50 years trying to remove all social and natural consequences from promiscuous, perverted and dangerous sexual behavior, especially by women. Their ideas have consequences and not just on women. What they created was Bill Clinton, Anthony Weiner and Harvey Weinstein.

Sounds like Roy Moore is more of an an outlier than a predator.

David Smith said...

"His interest in their purity is impure."

Unless he's a Democrat.

Howard said...

It sounds better than the Joseph and Mary comparison.

Bob R said...

If he was seeking out 30-year-old virgins, purity might be an argument. But it's clear that he was seeking out girls over whom he would have great power. He sought out political office, which gave him power over others. Where else in his life did purity matter? Everything he has done points to a focus on power. This makes the rape charges (statutory and otherwise) believable to me.

Unknown said...

These years in retrospect are going to be hilarious. Witch trials, prudery, purges, and surgically mutilating the insane. Oh, that wacky 21st century!

robother said...

"His interest in their purity is impure."

Not at all like Roman Polanski's interest, which is Art.

Unknown said...

Yeah yeah, they’re seeking purity? So why did Moore take off the 14 year old Leigh Corfman’s clothing and have her rub his erect penis through his tightly whiteys? Sounds like he was trying very hard to make the teenager impure. Sounds more like these men who seek teen girls can’t deal with a grown woman because they have some personal attribute, either physical or personality, that is a turn off to women his own age. Teen girls can be very gullible and easily fooled.

His interest in the teen girls purity is to sully it and to have someone pliable to control.

walter said...

Blogger Mr Wibble said...
Moore, who wasn't hanging around the high-school lot at 3pm.
--
Ah..you know this how?

Michael K said...

" But it's clear that he was seeking out girls over whom he would have great power."

This is adopting the left's narrative, If you want to do that, it's up to you.

If you are a leftie like Inga or Ritmo, it's like home to you. To the rest of us, it seems like a lie but some want to believe lies and some don't.

I don't honestly know what the truth is but, based on the history of the WaPoo and its lies, I will wait until after the election.

Ann, did you watch that video I sent you ? Powerful stuff with a lot of the explanation of what has happened.,

Robert Cook said...

"...Moore, who wasn't hanging around the high-school lot at 3pm."

No, he was hanging around the shopping mall.

Unknown said...

“No, he was hanging around the shopping mall.”

And the dance recitals of 15 year olds, where he first saw his future wife.

Robert Cook said...

"The May-December romances only seem "Creepy" when its someone the Left dislikes."

Or perhaps decades ago such pairings were not seen as so unusual. Many considered women to be entering prime marriage age by their mid-teens. There was once not such a clear distinction between older children and youngish adults. Heck, Hawaii only raised its age of consent from 14 to 16 in 2001.

Mary Beth said...

All the talk of older men and teenage girls made me think of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. The protagonist, Randle McMurphy, is in the mental hospital because he though pretending to be insane was a good way to avoid a short prison sentence. He was in trouble in the first place for statutory rape - he had sex with a 15-year-old.

Yes, I know it's fiction, but the character has been treated like a hero. In fact, according to Wikipedia, the character was nominated for (but didn't make it onto) the "heroes list" for AFI's 100 Years... 100 Heroes and Villains.

"She was fifteen years old, going on thirty-five, Doc, and she told me she was eighteen, she was very willing, I practically had to take to sewing my pants shut. Between you and me, uh, she might have been fifteen, but when you get that little red beaver right up there in front of you, I don't think it's crazy at all and I don't think you do either. No man alive could resist that, and that's why I got into jail to begin with. And now they're telling me I'm crazy over here because I don't sit there like a goddamn vegetable. Don't make a bit of sense to me. If that's what being crazy is, then I'm senseless, out of it, gone-down-the-road, wacko. But no more, no less, that's it."

Maybe they'll do a new list and he can make in on the "villains" one this time.

raf said...

From the way they turn on those who deviate from the narrative, it seems clear that Loyalty/Betrayal is very important to those on the left.

Darrell said...

Didn't we have a couple of States where the age of consent was 7? In New England, if I recall.

Unknown said...

"His interest in their purity is impure."

A very conservative point of view. And reasonable.

Che Dolf said...

To the liberal mind, the idea that there's "something about a purity of a young woman, there is something that is good, that’s true, that’s straight" just sounds horribly sexist.

Reality is sexist. "Women who cohabit prior to marriage or who have premarital sex have an increased likelihood of marital disruption. ... This effect is strongest for women who have multiple premarital coresidental unions."
- link

Michael K said...

The left is truly insane and I don't know what can be done about it.

Aside from the obvious.

Unknown said...

Regarding Haidt's framework: It's moral emotions, not moral reasoning. A critical distinction for Haidt.

Sebastian said...

"And I find it hard to believe that liberals don't think about purity too. They just aim their thoughts at the impurity of the older man — the creep — who's going after young girls."

You mean, the "liberals" who applauded Roman Polanski are worried about the "impurity of older men"? Riight.

Just a touch of heterosexism in this post. But then, homonormative as they are, liberals don't give a damn about the impurity of older men going after younger boys. They are happy to reelect them to Congress.

Like any other part of their situational ethics, purity is just a prog tool.

Clyde said...

There was a discussion of August Strindberg the other day. He's another man who liked women of a certain age, no matter what age he was. Wikipedia notes:

"Strindberg was age 28 and Siri was 27 at the time of their marriage. He was 44 and Frida was 21 when they married, and he was 52 and Harriet was 23 when they married. Late during his life he met the young actress and painter Fanny Falkner (1890–1963) who was 41 years younger than Strindberg. She wrote a book which illuminates his last years, but the exact nature of their relationship is debated."

Big Mike said...

My son did a one year TDY in Huntsville, AL, and he reported that women do tend to marry young in Alabama. Most women his age were already married with kids, or not interested in men. So there are elements of believability to this story.

Hagar said...

Voltaire: "I can take care of my enemies myself, but please Lord, do you protect me from my friends!"

mccullough said...

It appears that Moore didn't "court young ladies" who had a father in their lives. That's consistent with predatory behavior.

n.n said...

How about the older woman? That was a progressive foundation of the sexual revolution. "=" or something made viable through sex, drugs, and surrogates.

Anyway, dating perilously close to the age of consent is negotiable. Courtship below the social threshold is questionable. Sexual relations... just wait.

retail lawyer said...

I read the Haidt book twice (psychology is hard for me) and I recall he said that most rules of morality (worldwide) are health based - treatment of corpses, food handling, taking shoes off indoors where people poop in the street . . . And there is a relative health advantage associated with youth as far as STDs are concerned.

But I think the pastor Flip is just being hard core religious, like Muslims from primitive societies or Mormon bigamist cultists. I don't think this is about morality or purity in the Haidt sense.

This is certainly not something that will be a winning political message in modern America.

n.n said...

it's clear that he was seeking out girls over whom he would have great power

And yet, he exercised none. Perhaps they had a separation of courtship and sexual relations that is lacking in the modern age of "friendship with benefits" (e.g. "casting couch" relationships).

n.n said...

based on the history of the WaPoo and its lies, I will wait until after the election

Or due process, whichever may come first. However, neither a Pro-Choice standard of inconvenient, unwanted, or profitable (i.e. presumed guilty) nor a trial by press should be tolerated in a civilized society.

Jim said...

Mary Beth. Good on McMurphy catch.

Jim said...

Jerry Seinfeld dated 17 yo. Where were the cries of’perv?’

Tim said...

Yeah yeah, they’re seeking purity? So why did Moore take off the 14 year old Leigh Corfman’s clothing and have her rub his erect penis through his tightly whiteys?

so she says, today, 40 years later.

Unknown said...

“The lady that he’s married to now, Ms. Kayla, is a younger woman. He did that because there is something about a purity of a young woman, there is something that is good, that’s true, that’s straight and he looked for that,”

Wasn’t Ms Kayla a divorced woman with a child when Moore married her? I don’t think she was pure in the sense the good preacher is asserting.

RichardJohnson said...

Haidt has studied how conservatives and liberals do moral reasoning, and liberals stick to only 2 of the 5 foundations — care/harm and fairness/cheating —

Liberals don't do loyalty/betrayal? Consider how black conservatives are treated. Blacks, according to white liberals, are supposed to be 100% liberal all the time. Those blacks who don't remain liberal are seen as traitors.

Liberals don't do authority/subversion? What is "97% of climate scientists support AGW" if not an appeal to authority? What about all the "scientists say conservatives are.." studies? More appeals to authority.

Liberals don't do sanctity/degradation? Consider the issue of the environment. Sounds to me like attitudes towards the environment have a lot to do with sanctity/degradation.

Another example of sanctity/degradation is the way liberals label their opponents. "Deplorable"- sounds to me like degraded to me. Liberals see themselves as the holy ones because they are neither bigoted nor racist nor homophobic nor Islamophobic.

Haidt used too narrow definitions.

wwww said...
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openidname said...

Actually, liberals do adhere to loyalty/subversion -- except they believe subversion is the positive value and loyalty is the negative value.

wwww said...
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wwww said...
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Etienne said...

Moore writes that the men in his military police platoon, all wanted him dead. He put sand bags in his cot and slept on top of them. As the men had threatened to frag him, and the common method was to throw a grenade under the officers cot.

He went to Vietnam late in the war, when it was already lost. None of the men wanted to get killed, so they didn't take any shit from gung-ho white officers.

He was obviously moved farther to the rear to finish his tour, otherwise he would have been dead.

Unknown said...

Officer Gary, tasked with guarding the purity of young ladies in Gadsden, Alabama.

“Retired Alabama police officer told MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell on Tuesday that she had to keep an eye on Alabama Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore in the 1980s at local high school football games because he would regularly harass the team’s teenage cheerleaders.

Faye Gary, who for 37 years was an officer at the Gadsden Police Department, explained to Mitchell that Moore’s reputation for pursuing underage girls was widely known throughout the community.

“We were also told to watch him at the ballgames, and make sure that he didn’t, you know, hang around with the cheerleaders,” said Gary.

Gary also said she learned that Moore had been barred from entering the local shopping mall because he had been “harassing” young women who worked there.”

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/alabama-ex-cop-says-she-was-tasked-with-keeping-roy-moore-away-from-cheerleaders-at-high-school-games/

n.n said...

Went after the girls without fathers

If true, then that is circumstantial evidence (a data point) to support the allegations, not evidence of illegal behavior.

However, the trial by press is being prosecuted with a religious/moral framework.

Separation of Church and State. Pro-Choice, right? Presumed guilty.

Jonathan Graehl said...

We're supposed to believe that men don't traumatize women now?

If a man wants a virgin or something close to it, it means he believes most men do some psychic damage to the women they handle roughly. Isn't the belief that women are better before men ruin them at least allied to the feminist view that men collectively and individually bring ruin to women?

To sum up: 'baggage'.

n.n said...

So, have Franken and other liberal clowns been granted moral authority to molest unconscious women? Or does that right extend to all clowns?

Boobies! You had to be there.

Perhaps we need a Planned Politician (PP).

The Godfather said...

Am I correct that there have been no claims that Moore misbehaved after he married in 1985? Would that be the case if he had a pathological attraction to teen-aged girls?

Henry said...

There is an interesting episode from First Kings:

1 Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.

2 Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat.

3 So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king.

4 And the damsel was very fair1 Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.

2 Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat.

3 So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king.

4 And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not.


There's a profound interaction between the old King and the woman that cherishes him that is distinct from fucking.

But King David was very old. A surety.

Henry said...

As for Roy, the people in Alabama should focus on redeeming him and let go the idea of voting for him.

Mac McConnell said...

MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell didn't interview the manager of the mall that stated Moore was never band from the premises. Or the sheriffs deputy and three waitresses who worked at The Olde Hickory they never saw Moore in the place and disputed the accusers description of the parking lot, it was well lit on all sides.
Mitchell or anyone at MSNBC or WAPO never figured out that the intersection the 14 year old said Moore picker up was a mile from her mothers house across a major thoughfair, not around the corner. They didn't bother to look at court records of why the mother and 14 year old were in court the day Moore supposedly got her number. The mother was giving her back to the father because the daughter was "out of control".FYI the father got custody, he lived in another town.

Achilles said...

Unknown said...
Yeah yeah, they’re seeking purity? So why did Moore take off the 14 year old Leigh Corfman’s clothing and have her rub his erect penis through his tightly whiteys?

None of that happened. Numerous local people have come out and called Cofman out as a liar. Mac's post above detailed some of the numerous holes in story. Additionally she has falsely accused 3 pastors of sexual abuse as well.

And you had to be 16 to work at the Old Hickory.

The woman is a serial liar and only despicable people are still using her accusation.

Bad Lieutenant said...

After the s*** he saw as a commander of MP's in Saigon, I'm sure that purity was important to him.

Darrell said...

Moore's wife, Kayla, had a father in her life. She served as a bookkeeper for his successful small businesses after college. So much for another fucking Lefty theory/lie.

Darrell said...

Moore writes that the men in his military police platoon, all wanted him dead.

Yeah, because his predecessor was killed when someone rolled a grenade under his bed when he was sleeping. His unit was involved in taking down drug dealers/trafficers and that involved current and former members of the military and drug lords in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia. They were doing more than just rolling up drunks in Saigon bars.

FIDO said...

It is 'buffet' purity, Ms. Althouse.

They want the 'women don't lie' stuff. They want the 'men protecting them' stuff...unless they don't. Give them two helpings of 'men pay for diner' and it seems...somehow, that women are exonerated from 'white guilt' except by the black women whose boyfriends these white women are stealing, hence the birth of intersectional feminism.

Women should, in fact, be able to walk into a bar naked with a bag of gold, put down a whole bottle, pass out and wake up with her bag and hymen intact because 'women'.

Oh yes, and they need extra money, extra promotions, extra child care and you men better shut your filthy mouths if a woman is on the planet Earth, just in case she hears.

So yeah...there are a lot of aspects of 'purity' even for the Leftists. They just renounce the idea that anyone should be allowed to shame (Democrat) women.

Lucien said...

Jim:
Don't think the "Pablo Picasso was never called an asshole" reference went unappreciated.

Roger Sweeny said...

I think Haidt is wrong about liberal's lack of concern for purity and pollution. Liberals simply care about different kinds of pollution. They don't want where they live and work polluted by bad thoughts, by racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.

Environmentalism is all about combating pollution. And not just obviously bad things like lead or salmonella bacteria. For many, also genetically modified organisms (though scientific evidence says they are safe) and non-native species, which are viewed as the alt-right views immigrants.

Jim said...

Lucien, thank you.

Herb Bitman said...

I am going to take a stab at this.
First - We always assume that the only motivation men have when pursuing women is base sexuality. I think it's more complex than that - especially when men are attracted to younger women (girls!). The idea of purity is close but not just sexual purity and not so much for dominance as been suggested. Men want to be admired - especially by women - but the older you get the harder it is to impress women unless you are extremely successful. Younger women are frankly easier to impress than older women. Girls mature earlier than boys and a man with a good job and disposable income looks much more grown up and mature than the the girl's peers who are still pimpled, unsophisticated and immature. An older man can look like a god if he shows them some attention and treats them like the young adults that they see themselves as. And, for a man, being looked at with abject worship is intoxicating.

Char Char Binks said...

I remember young women going gaga over Richard Gere when he first started going gray, one saying he looked "so distinguished!". I don't recall seeing "distinguished-looking" ladies on pinup posters at my friends' houses.

Men are different than women amirite!