October 5, 2017

"16 Unanswered Questions About The Las Vegas Shooting That The Mainstream Media Doesn’t Want To Talk About."

From Michael Snyder (a Republican candidate for Congress in Idaho’s First Congressional District). Excerpt:
#1 Photos of Stephen Paddock’s hotel room have been leaked, and one of those photos appears to show a suicide note. Why hasn’t the public been told what is in that note?

#2 Were there additional shooters?... #3 Why were law enforcement authorities discussing “another suspect on the fourth floor”...

#4 As Jon Rappoport has pointed out, it would have been impossible for Stephen Paddock to kill and wound 573 people in less than five minutes of shooting with the kinds of weapons that he is alleged to have used. So why won’t law enforcement authorities acknowledge this fact?

#5 How in the world did Paddock get 42 guns and “several thousand rounds of ammo” into his hotel room without anyone noticing?...

#7 Why was one woman telling people in the crowd that they were all going to die 45 minutes before the attack?...

#15 Why were nearly all of the exits out of the concert venue completely blocked?…
ALSO: "Before targeting the Route 91 Harvest music festival, Paddock rented a room at a condominium complex overlooking the Life is Beautiful music festival, another downtown event held between September 22 to September 25.... 'Was he doing pre-surveillance?'..." (CNN).

AND: In case you're wondering why I linked to that and whether I'm a conspiracy-theory nut, I got to that list of #16 via Drudge who has this list of links at the top of the page today:
MORE: "There was a note in his hotel room whose exact contents the authorities have yet to reveal. Sheriff Lombardo said that it contained numbers that were being analyzed for their relevance, and that it was not a manifesto or suicide note" (NYT).

216 comments:

1 – 200 of 216   Newer›   Newest»
rhhardin said...

Speculation that uses profiling works better. It plays the odds.

rhhardin said...

Pay a fraternity to secretly assemble a complete automobile in a hotel room as a test.

Ralph L said...

NaturalNews?
Herbalife covers Herbadeath.

Darrell said...

15 Why were nearly all of the exits out of the concert venue completely blocked?…

Because one man's "out" is another man's "in."

Todd said...

Darrell said...

Because one man's "out" is another man's "in."

10/5/17, 8:21 AM


Can we please leave sex out of a conversation just once? /sarc

Ralph L said...

assemble a complete automobile in a hotel room
The unibody won't fit in the elevator, much less the room door.

BDNYC said...

I'm guessing many of the wounded were not hit by bullets but instead fell and were trampled upon.

rehajm said...

There’s logical theories for most of these. A few: Gunfire echoes off of buildings and things making it seem like it’s coming from multiple sources. Were 573 people hit by gunfire or injured by falls, trampled...Guns are easy to take apart and lead into gym bags or gold bags and casino floors are filled with people wheeling luggage to/from their rooms. Exits are blocked during events to prevent throngs of people from coming in...


Althousians have hashed out all of these already:

Ralph L said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Darrell said...

If you listen to this tape at 0:45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iooW2Lev1qw

The quiet--distant--shots start first and then you can hear the loud close shots because the cab driver is right below his windows. It is not an echo unless it's Bizarro World where the distant echo comes first.

Now I Know! said...

Ann, why do you continue to traffic in this shit? You are becoming just another right wing conspiracy nut.

tim in vermont said...

"You are all going to die" is the strongest piece that shows there were more than likely multiple conspirators.

Kate said...

There was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.

HT said...

It's weird you would reprint something saying it's a suicide note.

I pointed out several days ago about the Life festival. Old news.

Ann Althouse said...

""You are all going to die" is the strongest piece that shows there were more than likely multiple conspirators."

Do we really know that happened? It could be a lie or a distorted recollection that got twisted in the retelling. Did anyone get that on video?

Darrell said...

Kate repeats what she said days ago. Must be an echo.

Original Mike said...

If there were more people shooting from different rooms wouldn't there have to be additional broken out windows?

lgv said...

Has no one seen the movie "Parallax View"? It was a setup. Part of the NWH. Just like the fake 9/11/01 plane crashes. Shortly, one of the 20k+ people there will note shots fired from a different direction or hotel level.

It could be a Russian plot to get us to disarm.

Big Mike said...

Everyone wants there to be multiple shooters, and I have seen a video taken during the shooting that appears to show muzzle flashes from a spot in the center area of the hotel roughly timed to the sound of the gunshots. But the flashes continue after the gunshots pause, so can't be part of the shooting.

As to "impossible" to shoot 500 people? I beg to differ! The people were packed in tightly enough that a single bullet could have accounted for wounds to multiple people. How long did the shooting last? How large were the magazines?

Larry J said...

How many of those people who suffered injuries were shot as opposed to those who got hurt in the stampede? I've seen no figures on the number of gunshot injuries. Also, depending on where a bullet strikes someone, it can sometimes pass through one person and hit another. With a crowd that size, it's quite likely that there were some cases of multiple injuries from a single bullet.

tim in vermont said...

Supposedly, the only time ISIS has claimed a terror attack, also on a casino, and not been proven right, no alternative explanation was proven either. They don't make false claims, and they seem not to have been worried, within a very short time of the attack, that they were going to be proven wrong. Paddock could easily have used disposable phones, there are ways around the NSA. Disposable phones on both sides, the calls are lost in the giant heap of hundreds of millions or more of calls that are made every day in the US, and the tens of millions of calls or more that go international.



Ann, why do you continue to traffic in this shit? You are becoming just another right wing conspiracy nut.

So you are not interested in any answers but what are handed to us by AUTHORITY. Got it. Never question authority! You could explain why they are not legitimate questions. Or you could read some of the millions of other blogs in the internets.

Darrell said...

Do we really know that happened? It could be a lie or a distorted recollection that got twisted in the retelling. Did anyone get that on video?

The taped witnesses seem reliable and well spoken. And they gave those interviews right after the shooting because the Daily Mail had them up. There was no controversy at the time.

Ralph L said...

How are we going to trust what the "authorities" say about this officially, assuming they finally do?
I blame the Warren Commission and Oliver Stone. And the Soviets.

Darrell said...

Bizarro World. Lefties trusting the authorities. Or is that only when the authorities contradict Lefty talking points?

CJinPA said...

Is this guy a fringe candidate? He's now a candidate for the fringe.

I see Snopes calls him an "end-time enthusiast," for what it's worth.

Ralph L said...

Perhaps the shouter didn't like the music.

tim in vermont said...

Did anyone get that on video?

Nio, but if you look at the interview with the young lady who reported it, her recollection was quite detailed and she seemed perfectly rational and calm as she related the incident. It seems like a pretty bizarre lie to come up with on such short notice. They have miles of videotape to go over, so I can be patient to see if she is borne out or not by video, or interviews with security personnel who supposedly escorted the couple out. Not to mention they don't want to tip off possible co-conspirators.

Patience gets to the bottom of these things, unless they go into full cover-up mode, as they have in Charlottesville.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Bullet point #4 is, frankly, stupid.
The argument is that it had to be multiple shooters because it seems like one person couldn't hit that many people. Bullet point #15 shows WHY it would have been possible to hit that many people quickly, though: the people were very densely packed in a small area and were not able to easily disperse. Further, and more importantly, the mass of people DID NOT KNOW they were under attack at first. I watched one of the combined videos of the attack last night--stitched together cell footage from people at the concert and at neighboring hotels. The second clip in the video was really terrible--the person taking it caught not only the report of the shots but the *snap* of the bullets going by. Even that clip, though, shows people not immediately reacting. The asshole murderer was able to fire several volleys, over a relatively large amount of time, before most of the people in the crowd reacted at all. Once they did react many of the people didn't know where to go or what to do, and you can see that a lot of them just dropped down flat, in place. Those people were then outstanding targets since from the murderer's position they were completely exposed.
I would bet that many of the people wounded were hit while lying flat like that.

The article linked to support #4 is wrong almost right off the bat. It says So, Paddock didn’t fire 360 rounds in 240 seconds because he had to stop and change magazines…probably 30 round mags. but we know that's wrong--even from the few leaked photos you can see several big oversized AR15 mags--those are at a minimum 60 round mags, so the initial assumption that guy's relying on as "proof!" there was more than one shooter is already on shaky ground.
I keep reading people saying the sounds don't make sense for just one shooter, but I don't hear most of those people discussing the actual topography of the location--with the large buildings, "canyons" between them, and open spaces. If you're not accounting for the echos & sound artifacts you'll get from that kind of space then you're starting off with bad assumptions again--and honestly you'll probably need an audio expert to tell you what you should "expect" to hear in such a weird environment.

tim in vermont said...

I see Snopes calls him an "end-time enthusiast," for what it's worth.

Worth the same as any piece of propaganda out of a cabal of known liars.

Darrell said...

Five minutes of actual shooting. Around 800 rounds expended. 573 victims, killed or wounded.
That's some shooting.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

CJinPA said...I see Snopes calls him an "end-time enthusiast," for what it's worth.

Yeah but who isn't these days? If we don't immanentize the eschaton who will?
Don't blame me: I voted for SMOD.

tim in vermont said...

The witness to the "You are all gonna die" lady claimed to have seen it directly.

Darrell said...

Did he stop (assuming he did have 2000 rounds) because he had already set the US record?

Ralph L said...

If this is a regular concert venue, the owners and the city government could be in big trouble about blocked exits.

I thought it was the John Davidson concert fire that brought out that problem (it had too few exits/too many people/no warning sys), but it must have been that much earlier nightclub fire in Boston? that had locked exits (and paper decorations).

Curious George said...

"#4 As Jon Rappoport has pointed out, it would have been impossible for Stephen Paddock to kill and wound 573 people in less than five minutes of shooting with the kinds of weapons that he is alleged to have used. So why won’t law enforcement authorities acknowledge this fact?"

I don't find this persuasive at all. I'm surprised more weren't killed. SIt was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Did he stop (assuming he did have 2000 rounds) because he had already set the US record?"

Of course he did. He had to masturbate.

I am Laslo.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Ann Althouse said... It could be a lie or a distorted recollection that got twisted in the retelling. Did anyone get that on video?

Or it could be completely unrelated to the actual mass murder. People say and do weird things all the time, but since nothing big happens afterwards no one remembers the weirdness or gives it any import.

I am trying to work out WHY people are so eager to JFK this! When Alex Jones (or whoever--I'm not positive it was him) did that around the Sandy Hook mass murder we all agreed it was despicable. I would have thought prudent people would at least have a little more reluctance to jump in on this one so quickly.

tim in vermont said...

I pointed out several days ago about the Life festival. Old news.

I agree that it wasn't a suicide note, but you might want to drop the Clintonism "old news" if you want to keep your credibility, since usually that is what they said about true things that they didn't want to talk about.

Laslo Spatula said...

The fact that no one is mentioning a dead hooker in his room means there was a dead hooker in his room.

I am Laslo.

Pettifogger said...

As for getting the guns and ammo into the hotel room, he was checked in for several days. Coming and going with a suitcase and perhaps even a briefcase would take care of the ammo and guns that break down. Never mind that you could get much of it in when you first come by using a self-help cart loaded with several suitcases and a couple of golf bags.

Several thousand rounds of ammo isn't all that bulky. Your main limitation would be its weight. You don't want to collapse the cart.

Henry said...

#17 Why am I sourcing my questions to alternative news sites?

tim in vermont said...

Or it could be completely unrelated to the actual mass murder. People say and do weird things all the time, but since nothing big happens afterwards no one remembers the weirdness or gives it any import.

Could be! But it is a loose end that it would be nice to see tied up by investigators, since she seemed pretty clear headed and well spoken, and the interview happened right after the thing was over. You should watch the interview before you dismiss it. It is pretty convincing.

Bill, Republic of Texas said...

Anything big will generate conspiracy theories. That is why it is essential that the law enforcement, government and media are creditable. Once people loss faith in their institutions the society is in trouble.

Unfortunately our institutions have destroyed their creditably so now conspiracy theories will have more traction.

The trust in the FBI and federal law enforcement has been wiped out. Look at Scalise shooter investigation, Ft Hood work place violence, the editing of the Pulse 911 call that replaced Allah with God and many more instances where "motive will never be known".

CJinPA said...

Worth the same as any piece of propaganda out of a cabal of known liars.

Fair enough. But we should frame this post by noting that his candidacy is not serious. He hasn't raised any money and is waging it via eye-catching blog posts. He posted some crazy hurricane stuff that went viral.

I'm saying the quality of his candidacy matches the quality of these questions.

Unknown said...

I'd suggest "You are all going to die" could be friends joking around. I know I've said stuff like that to friends. Fortunately afterward, no one was killed.

tim in vermont said...

I'm saying the quality of his candidacy matches the quality of these questions

Then why don't you just take the one you think is the strongest, and blow it away for us! Why don't you think it is worthwhile to try to understand what is going on? Why not come up with a list of better questions?

Because you are just trolling, seems to be the answer, but maybe I am wrong.

mockturtle said...

Original Mike asks: If there were more people shooting from different rooms wouldn't there have to be additional broken out windows?

That's what I assume. The only point listed above that has me curious is the first one. There does appear to be a note in the room, secured to the table and arranged so as to be found. So why, if they are searching for motive, would they not divulge the contents?

The fact that he had been casing other venues and that, in May, ISIS had called for such an event in Las Vegas ABC News makes me wonder if the 'radicalization' thing might have legs.

tim in vermont said...

I know I've said stuff like that to friends. - Quelle surprise!

As has been said, it could be nothing, but it is a lead and should be followed up and if it is nothing, they should make that known, and how they determined it. Unless you want the whole thing kept a secret for some reason.

Darrell said...

At the DM site, the English conjecture was that the Mexican woman was a Bruja that saw Grim Reapers present--hence the prediction. No one here offered that explanation. At least.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

If this guy is a radicalized antifa or a radical leftwing progressive democrat - we will not learn about it.

EDH said...

Isn't there some media speculation he fired in the direction of some nearby fuel storage tanks hoping to cause a fiery spill?

Would that change in aim alter the sound?

And how sound was his plan if he thought he could cause such a leak?

Chuck said...

A prepper/rapturist, being cited on Althouse? Is this Althouse trolling her audience?

So here is what I want to do. I want these conspiracy theories presented directly to President Trump on a live broadcast. Does the Trump Administration see "mounting evidence" that there were two shooters, missing evidence, a wider conspiracy?

I am vey much of a wedge issue kind of guy. I want to know how closely TrumpWorld aligns with the prepper/rapturist/conspiracy world.

Given the notions of Barack Obama having been born in Kenya, etc., maybe they overlap pretty closely.

I am looking for the break point, between mainstream Republicans like me (and the majorities in both houses of Congress and in most state houses across the country), and the prepper/rapturist/conspiracists, and the Trump Administration.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Darrell said...Five minutes of actual shooting. Around 800 rounds expended. 573 victims, killed or wounded.
That's some shooting.


It really isn't, though. People are focusing on the distance and the high number of hits. People are missing the target density and utter lack of cover for his angle.
Take the total area in front of the stage (where people were effectively penned in) and divide it by the number of people--then understand that shooting from an elevated position means the fire is coming down at an angle against that plane of people.
The murderer chose his spot and target so that he would not have to be all that accurate.

Honestly the stuff I'm reading today about hits to the big avgas tanks across the way is probably evidence that he wasn't all that accurate. You'd have to be stupid to think you could blow up those tanks with standard small caliber ammo (not tracer or incendiary, even)--that fuel is difficult to ignite and those tanks usually have inert-gas systems designed to make an explosion almost impossible. The murderer was apparently a pilot so you'd assume he would be familiar with the fuel and its properties. All of that is to say I'm not certain he was aiming at/trying to hit those tanks at all.

Oso Negro said...

We are still in the "who the fuck knows?" stage of this incident. In the absence of good information, humans indulge in the wildest speculation. What we have in the USA is authorities who manage information for their convenience, media that speculates for profit, semi-crazed theorist who can find a conspiracy in tap water, and a public who will believe almost anything. Best of times.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Laslo Spatula said...

The fact that no one is mentioning a dead hooker in his room means there was a dead hooker in his room.

Why would they mention a dead hooker in his room? Who amongst us hasn't had a dead hooker in their Vegas hotel room? Might as well mention that he had a Gideon's Bible in there.

Chuck said...

Trump just left Las Vegas talking about what a great job that law enforcement had done in stopping the shooter, in responding and investigating the crime.

Is Trump full of shit? Is law enforcement actually presiding over a grand hoax?

CJinPA said...

Then why don't you just take the one you think is the strongest, and blow it away for us! Why don't you think it is worthwhile to try to understand what is going on? Why not come up with a list of better questions?

Because I'm in no rush. The facts almost always are revealed in these things, eventually. Legitimate questions may surface as well. I am being patient.

I don't have time to troll. I was providing perspective. This man has said things in the past to get attention that are not credible. Doesn't automatically mean his questions are weak, although I think they are.

tim in vermont said...

So here is what I want to do. I want these conspiracy theories presented directly to President Trump on a live broadcast. Does the Trump Administration see "mounting evidence" that there were two shooters, missing evidence, a wider conspiracy?

What is the difference between a rabidly irredentist Cruz supporter who can't accept that his guy will never be POTUS and a Moby? None, as far as I can tell.

Darrell said...

It's not media speculation--it is a fact. Two bullets hit the tank and one penetrated it. There were a few more close misses. There was no fire or explosion and the tanks have a built-in fire/explosion protection system (and the fuel isn't that explosive in liquid form, especially when the tanks are full.

Chuck said...

They are already scaling back the number of "injured." There were less than 500 injured. And perhaps less than half that number were hit by bullets.

Is there a number on that yet? How many people were hit by bullets?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Holy shit, the Life Long Republican comes through again! That's almost impressive, man--there's no topic that can't be hijacked to serve the "insult Trump & Trumpkins" agenda, huh?
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure President Trump's response to questions about specifics of this mass murder has been to say that people should be patient and wait for the ongoing investigations to provide answers. Right? I will search for the quote if I have to, but if that's accurate then he's actually saying what you would want him to, right? And yet your post is still about how Trump is bad and doing the wrong thing.

Churchill is supposed to have said "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." That's not quite enough to describe someone who actively changes OTHER, unrelated subjects just to vent their fanaticism, though. Sad.

tim in vermont said...

Legitimate questions may surface as well. I am being patient.

There are legitimate questions, for sure, and lots of not so legitimate ones. I am being patient too, but I am noting things that I expect to be accounted for in the final analysis.

The Drill SGT said...

1. The cyclic rate of fire for an M-16 class weapon is between 700-950 RPM.

2. large capacity mags

3. people ask, why so many guns? perhaps he fired 10 rifles, one at a time with 1 large mag each. That's 300-400 rounds. You could do that in 60-90 seconds.

4. The second time around, you'd have to swap mags, but rotating weapons does solve some barrel heat issues

5. he fired for 10 minutes. So he could generate 2000 shots in that time. Calculated differently? 200 RPM for 10 minutes is possible for most anybody with a couple of weapons and enough mags. gonna scorch some rugs though :)



as for multiple strikes from one bullet, not so much with plunging fire from 32 floors up.

I suspect there are tramples in the count of the injured.

Chuck said...

tim in Vermont:

When the Althouse comments turn against me personally, I know that I have made a valid point.

Scott McGlasson said...

As Jon Rappoport has pointed out, it would have been impossible for Stephen Paddock to kill and wound 573 people in less than five minutes of shooting with the kinds of weapons that he is alleged to have used.

Something else that struck me when I saw the graphic showing the immediate area that this took place in. 1100 feet from the window to the concert area. While that's within the effective range for some of the weapons shown, it's not exactly an easy shot without extensive training.

AReasonableMan said...

This lunatic list automatically disqualifies him from office.

Robert Cook said...

"'CJinPA said...I see Snopes calls him an "end-time enthusiast," for what it's worth.'

"Yeah but who isn't these days? If we don't immanentize the eschaton who will?"


It was the year when they finally immanentized the Eschaton. On April 1, the world's great powers came closer to nuclear war than ever before, all because of an obscure island name Fernando Poo...I happen to know all the details about what happened, but I have no idea how to recount them in a manner that will made sense to most readers.

Freeman Hunt said...

#5 How in the world did Paddock get 42 guns and “several thousand rounds of ammo” into his hotel room without anyone noticing?...

This seems easy. Who would think anything of someone taking luggage up to a hotel room?

Ralph L said...

A UM-W protest fit for Laslo: Cocks, not Glocks

mockturtle said...

I am looking for the break point, between mainstream Republicans like me (and the majorities in both houses of Congress and in most state houses across the country), and the prepper/rapturist/conspiracists, and the Trump Administration.

Chuck, I would like a sensible middle-ground between the Deep State and the Preppers.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Our media are as corrupt as Hillary.

Darrell said...

I know that I have made a valid point

Only with your head.

tim in vermont said...

If he had penetrated the tank, started a small leak of jet fuel, that leaked fuel would be easier to start that what was in the tank, once started, it could have gotten nasty. Sparks from bullets hitting the stream of diesel. As one who used diesel to start fires like burn piles, I know that it is not that easy to start even spilled out, but it can certainly be done.

Freeman Hunt said...

This lunatic list automatically disqualifies him from office.

I agree that this is a goofy list.

tim in vermont said...

When the Althouse comments turn against me personally, I know that I have made a valid point.

No, your monomania has produced pushback. Not the same thing.

CJinPA said...

There are legitimate questions, for sure, and lots of not so legitimate ones. I am being patient too, but I am noting things that I expect to be accounted for in the final analysis.

Fair enough.

Chuck said...

5. he fired for 10 minutes. So he could generate 2000 shots in that time. Calculated differently? 200 RPM for 10 minutes is possible for most anybody with a couple of weapons and enough mags. gonna scorch some rugs though :)

Exactly. And it appears that calculated very roughly, he hit a person with about 1 out of 10 shots. Killing about 1 out of every 4 people that were hit with bullets.

That latter ratio actually feels a little high to me. Modern surgery is actually pretty good in treating gunshot wounds. But if this guy was shooting a heavy round like a 7.62 (or larger!), and if there was such mass confusion, fear and inability to transport bleeding victims (what EMS crew would venture into the concert venue until they knew for sure that the shooting was over?), then I think I can understand it better.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

tim in vermont...Could be! But it is a loose end that it would be nice to see tied up by investigators, since she seemed pretty clear headed and well spoken, and the interview happened right after the thing was over. You should watch the interview before you dismiss it. It is pretty convincing.

Sorry if I wasn't clear: I don't doubt the interview subject's recollection nor her explanation of what she saw & heard. I am perfectly willing to believe there was a strange woman telling people in that area that they were all going to die & speaking in a menacing way. What I'm saying is that the incident described may be unrelated to the murderer's actions.
It's definitely something that should be investigated! I'm a pretty solitary guy but I have a hard time believing someone could plan and execute something like this without anyone else knowing something was going on--I would expect there to be someone else who knew something.

I'm just saying when we list the possible explanations of the behavior the woman interviewed described we ought to include the possibility that it was unrelated to the murderer. I'm certainly not dismissing that story and I agree it'd be good to have an explanation for it.

Ralph L said...

as for multiple strikes from one bullet, not so much with plunging fire from 32 floors up.
But if it's 1000 ft away and people are closely packed?

tim in vermont said...

Basically, reading the list again, and seeing who wrote it, the "You are all gonna die" question is the only one I actually care about.

traditionalguy said...

The Las Vegas police chief says he wants some answers too. He said that he cannot finish his investigation until he sees how this old and sick guy did that much work hauling in gear in total secrecy without a support system.
And who assisted him by covering up of the massive weapons cache in the hotel suite for three days. We're the maids and room service blind people?

Rumor has it that this hotel is Soros connected, and it conveniently, immediately cleaned its computer of all info generated about the shooter. That cover up was not done by a mentally ill loner. It was carefully planned by his support system.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Scott McGlasson said...

While that's within the effective range for some of the weapons shown, it's not exactly an easy shot without extensive training.

It would be a difficult shot to hit a specific individual. It would be an easy shot to hit the crowd.

Later in the shooting, as the crowd thinned out, you might be able to judge his accuracy based on hits and misses. But I'm not sure there is enough information ( which shots were taken when, how dense was the crowd at that point, etc. ) to tell.

tcrosse said...

At the Sheriff's presser last night they trotted out an FBI guy from Central Casting, who gave the sort of boilerplate speech that Robert Stack used to give on the Untouchables. It did not inspire confidence, the credibility of the FBI having been compromised.

Scott McGlasson said...

It would be a difficult shot to hit a specific individual. It would be an easy shot to hit the crowd.

Yep, that thought occurred to me immediately after hitting PUBLISH YOUR COMMENT :)

Ralph L said...

If he had penetrated the tank
An industrial engineer at JOM said tanks are 1-2 inches thick steel.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

There were less than 500 injured. And perhaps less than half that number were hit by bullets.

Fewer. I agree that some of the reported injuries are probably not from gunshots/direct wounds. Mass murderers target crowds in part because people in the crowds will injure each other unintentionally.

[The type of terror attack I fear uses a few people and fire/flames/smoke in a coordinated way--I can think of several low-cost scenarios along that line that would result in a lot of deaths and injuries.]

Original Mike said...

"He said that he cannot finish his investigation until he sees how this old and sick guy did that much work hauling in gear in total secrecy without a support system."

For the record, 64 is not old and sick.

tcrosse said...

The crazy old lady was right. We are all going to die.

Chuck said...

As I have said many times in 2017, Trumpism is The Onion's worst nightmare. How can they top today's actual news?

I emailed this to Althouse but in her editorial wisdom she hasn't blogged it. This is so freakishly appropriate to this post, I can hardly believe it.

"Man Worried Any Crazy Person Could Get Hands on Congressional Seat":

http://www.theonion.com/article/man-worried-any-crazy-person-could-get-hands-congr-57107

William said...

The guy was a sick fuck. You wouldn't think that a sick fuck would be capable of engineering and executing such an elaborate murder scheme.......I guess he was clever and resourceful in his way, but it just seems so intricate and well thought out for a psycho. Mass murder is an impulsive act. These killings were as plotted as D-Day.......Maybe he acted alone and for his own reasons, but the circumstances are suspicious,

Fernandinande said...

Note:
- Milk
- Wonder Bread
- Cheetos
- Case of bullets

Bob Boyd said...

BDNYC said...
"I'm guessing many of the wounded were not hit by bullets but instead fell and were trampled upon."

That's a good point. I wonder if we'll get a breakdown on how many of the wounded were shot.
Letting people assume they were all shot helps the gun control push. The shooter is still responsible for all the injuries, of course.

mockturtle said...

Tcrosse notes: At the Sheriff's presser last night they trotted out an FBI guy from Central Casting, who gave the sort of boilerplate speech that Robert Stack used to give on the Untouchables. It did not inspire confidence, the credibility of the FBI having been compromised.

Local law enforcement is always more credible than the FBI.

Bob Boyd said...

"16 Unanswered Questions About The Las Vegas Shooting That The Mainstream Media Doesn’t Want To Talk About."

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

mockturtle said...

Fernaninande speculates: Note:
- Milk
- Wonder Bread
- Cheetos
- Case of bullets


You forgot the Hostess Twinkies.

Robert Cook said...

"Mass murder is an impulsive act."

Not at all...or, at least, not in most cases. What makes you think so?

Ignorance is Bliss said...

traditionalguy said...

The Las Vegas police chief says he wants some answers too. He said that he cannot finish his investigation until he sees how this old and sick guy did that much work hauling in gear in total secrecy without a support system.

They're called bellhops.

And who assisted him by covering up of the massive weapons cache in the hotel suite for three days. We're the maids and room service blind people?

It's called a do not disturb sign. They come with the room.

Ingenious support system he worked out there.

chickelit said...

mockturtle noted: That's what I assume. The only point listed above that has me curious is the first one. There does appear to be a note in the room, secured to the table and arranged so as to be found. So why, if they are searching for motive, would they not divulge the contents?

I'm curious about that note too. Hopefully, it wasn't just some sort of Jackie Treehorn prank.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Chuck said...
tim in Vermont:

When the Althouse comments turn against me personally, I know that I have made a valid point."

That's more comforting than realizing that they have turned against you because you are as boring and obsessive and hateful as any leftist.

Gahrie said...

As I have said many times in 2017, Trumpism is The Onion's worst nightmare.

Honey...the dog shit on the carpet again......

Darrell said...

The Las Vega newspapers estimated 800 rounds--based on listening to tapes and talking to cops that counted the empty magazines. But go ahead and pull numbers out of your ass. And don't watch linked tapes. The second window only offers a line of sight at the airport fuel tanks, and apparently he didn't throw that many shots at them.

Gahrie said...

That's more comforting than realizing that they have turned against you because you are as boring and obsessive and hateful as any leftist.

It's one of the reasons I think he really is a Moby.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

EDH said...
Isn't there some media speculation he fired in the direction of some nearby fuel storage tanks hoping to cause a fiery spill?

Would that change in aim alter the sound?

And how sound was his plan if he thought he could cause such a leak?


I presume if you had a fixed microphone at the appropriate angle recording the shooting you could determine a suitably large shift in the aim point/angle of the fire. I'm not sure there are any such fixed point recordings, though--what I've seen so far are (understandably) shaky cell phone recordings where people are running around. Who knows what a forensic audio expert could eventually work out, though.

[side note: my city uses a technology called "Shot Track" or something like that to pin down the location of gunshots. The system has a large number of fixed microphones networked to computers, and when they detect a gunshot the computer compares the sounds and triangulates the location of the shot. I don't know how well it really works but they claimed they could pinpoint locations very accurately in near-real time.]

On the tanks I'm still skeptical. With as much gear as he had I have to assume he could have/would have purchased ammunition designed to start fires if that was his goal--it isn't all that difficult to acquire tracers or incendiary (even "API" - armor piercing incendiary) ammunition in larger calibers and with all the time and expense he put into his planning I'd think he would have picked up a few of those.

But I don't know any more about it than anyone--maybe he had a bunch in a different mag and didn't get around to using them. It's certainly possible.

rcocean said...

"Ingenious support system he worked out there."

This guy was a rich gambler. Casino's comped his rooms. His brother bragged that he and shooter ate "thousands of dollars" of suhshi for free at a LV hotel.

He had TWO large Rooms with great views on the 32nd floor. He had bellboys bring his bags/suitcases up the rooms. He had bags/suitcases in his closets. Maids don't open closets and rummage through your luggage.

The only REAL question remaining is WHY?

Roughcoat said...

Until and unless I learn otherwise, I'm going to assume the simplest explanation: one shooter, acting alone.

Occam's Razor, and all that. Of course I could be wrong.

On the afternoon of 9/11 my wife's sister called me from her apartment on the Upper East Side of NYC. She was hysterical. She told me that she heard from a friend who heard from a friend that a friend was in line at the bank chatting with a dark-skinned Middle Eastern looking guy in the line in front of her who said, "Look, I like you. I want you to know that there's going to be another attack and that you'd better get out of the city. I'm telling you this because I like you."

I tried to calm her down, telling her that this was an instant myth, an instant urban legend.

In the course of the next few days I heard this story repeated, several times.

I don't believe the "you're all going to die" story, no matter how calm and collected the person telling it was.

rcocean said...

The Ratio of killed to wounded is way out of whack. 10-1. Usually its more like 3 or 4 to 1.

So yeah, a lot of those injuries must be people that got trampled.

Roughcoat said...

Then again, I didn't believe that my brother-in-law had been buried by a mudslide on St. Thomas during hurricane Maria.

You never know. Until you do.

rcocean said...

He had a lot of explosives in his car trunk. I wonder if his plan was to leave his room, go down to the scene, pose as a rescue vehicle and then blow himself up. Could've wiped out a lot more people.

Bruce Hayden said...

As some have pointed out he had several days to get everything up to his room. Maybe a duffle bag at a time. Or, he could just have paid the bellmen to lug it up. Part of their enumeration is to keep their mouths shut. Vegas is different from a lot of cities because of the volume of conventions, and many of the exhibitors haul up a lot of their stuff to their rooms to prepare for their booths and presentations. So, it is plausible that he just gave the bellmen enough money to lug it all up, and then to keep their mouths shut. They do the former a lot for conventions, and they are also the primary way that illegal drugs and hookers are acquired by hotel guests. What is going to be interesting is how he actually did it - they just have to look at the video of the hall by his room (and, yes, in a Vegas casino/hotel, they have it all on video) for the days running up to the shooting and see who is bringing in large items, or a lot of smaller ones. Then work backwards. This will also answer the question of whether or not he was working alone.

I still wonder how he was able to maintain that rate of fire and still hit the target(s). Some of the photos seem to suggest that much of his arsenal had "bump stock". Maybe too erratic, but they might explain the firing rate (as noted above, a little slower than an M16, but still fast). The problem, though, as I understand it, is that using a bump stock takes a bit of practice, and is apparently exhausting, which would make it even harder for someone his age. Moreover, the plunging fire without training is also problematic. That said, I have seen videos of people experienced with using a bump stock and shooting fully automatic weapons keep their firearm on target for most of a magazine. On a bi/tripod, which he apparently had for a couple of the guns. Again though, this should be fairly straight forward to figure out - whose fingerprints were in which rifles? And, if they are really ambitious, which gun fired which slug recovered from the concert venue.

We shall see - but I think a lot of people will question the results if there is any apparent stinting of the forensics.

traditionalguy said...

Ingenious system he worked out to haul up gear and conceal its existence had to be more than hope bellhops, maids and room service overlook you. That is a system that relies on chance. And he was a gambler. But that was pure luck if it worked that way, "deranged loner luck."

Bill Crawford said...

Question: What is it that makes this a federal matter? Is the FBI involved in a consulting role, providing a certain expertise the local law enforcement doesn't have? If the FBI has jurisdiction, why?

mockturtle said...

Roughcoat comments: I don't believe the "you're all going to die" story, no matter how calm and collected the person telling it was.

Supposedly, a security guard showed her out. The security guard, one would think, would be able to dispel or confirm this allegation. Why has he not been interviewed?

Curious George said...

"Original Mike said...
For the record, 64 is not old and sick."

Correct. Just old.

Bruce Hayden said...

Let me add the obvious to my last point. Pretty much everything in casino/hotels like this one in Vegas is under video surveillance 24/7, except for private rooms and restrooms. Definitely most of the time from when he unloaded his car, until his luggage (etc) entered his room. Which is why OJ was so stupid to try an armed robbery in another such casino/hotel. I also know a bell captain forced to quit because she was caught on video having sex with her boss. Not actually fired, due to the union (The casinos are most typically heavily unionized - which was Harry Reid's power base). But demoted from bell captain, where she was making > $100k a year, mostly under the table, to being a maid.

Their big problem is the volume of video that they record. Under normal circumstances, much of what might have prevented this massacre is missed due to the noise of so much video. But it is there, and they are adept at following people camera to camera back and forward through the casino/hotel, once they get interested. Almost 20 years ago, we experienced the police in Reno find where a certain woman was picked up in the bar in one casino, then through another one to a parking lot, where they were able to get the guy's plates as they got in his truck. She turned up dead later in the desert. All within a couple hours. They had a BOLO out, and the guy in custody before he left the state.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

rcocean said...He had a lot of explosives in his car trunk. I wonder if his plan was to leave his room, go down to the scene, pose as a rescue vehicle and then blow himself up. Could've wiped out a lot more people.

That's an old Hezzbollah tactic, isn't it? I know the PA used Red Crescent ambulances to smuggle bombs and arms for years. I'll have to search for it but I remember reading about an Israeli attack where the security forces killed the attackers quickly and then found their accomplices readying an ambulance packed with explosives--the idea was the first group would cause a bunch of casualties and then the bombers would park the ambulance in with the other rescue vehicles and take out first responders. Nasty stuff.

I know the Colorado theater murderer intended to blend in with police/SWAT guys and escape that way--he apparently geared up to mimic this local SWAT's uniforms. I don't think he wanted to continue killing while dressed that way, but I wonder if the Las Vegas mass murderer had some similar plan (intending to blend in with the responders in some way in order to escape).

Quaestor said...

When the Althouse comments turn against me personally, I know that I have made a valid point.

Seek help, Chuck.

Amadeus 48 said...

Actually, I am kinda with Chuck on this. This is an Infowars sort of post from Conspiracy Central.
One of the real wedge issues between the media and popular sentiment is the willingness press to bury things that reflect badly on Democrats and play up things that advance the liberal agenda. Did the Dems call out to Rep. Scalise (who was almost killed by one of their supporters)and make his attempted assassination a cause celebre? ? Not much. Who is talking about that on CNN?
How does this incident compare to the mass murders in San Bernardino, Paris, Orlando, and Manchester? The death totals were higher in Paris and comparable in Orlando and Manchester. France has tough gun laws (didn't help much), Britain has tough gun laws (he used a bomb), and Orlando is Orlando. San Bernardino was an example of a guy becoming a terrorist in plain sight. Isn't mass murder mass murder?
Apparently, this guy was working on a bomb alternative and did shoot at aviation fuel storage tanks, intending to create an inferno at the concert site.
There will be plenty of interesting developments here, but this list is way premature. What other choices are there in the GOP primary?

Roughcoat said...

which would make it even harder for someone his age.

Now, that right there is some funny shit. Got any more of that, Sparky?

Dust Bunny Queen said...

It would be a difficult shot to hit a specific individual. It would be an easy shot to hit the crowd.

Exactly. Like fishing with dynamite. Accuracy doesn't matter.

Agreeing with Hoodlum in that the person saying 'you are all gonna die' could have nothing to do with the event as there are crazy people walking around all the time bringing messages from God or their Alien Overlord Contacts or Bob the Cat.

Still something that should be investigated.

Bruce Hayden said...

"Ingenious system he worked out to haul up gear and conceal its existence had to be more than hope bellhops, maids and room service overlook you. That is a system that relies on chance. And he was a gambler. But that was pure luck if it worked that way, "deranged loner luck.""

Bellhops are essentially bribed to keep quiet. As I noted above, much of their renumeration is borderline illegal. Or at least their big tips. Not as much anymore, but still exists. And, in Vegas, they willingly take large items up to rooms, thanks to the large convention business there. Maids are handled with a "Do Not Disturb" on the door - given that people gamble all night and then crash during the day, bothering a guest with DND on the door could be a firing offense. We usually post DND wherever we stay, and just pick up extra towels and toiletries from the maids in the hall, or call the front desk and have them delivered - when we are in the room (Vegas hotels make clear to you that if you have DND on the door, they can't and won't enter the room without your specific permission). Room service is handled similarly- you just meet them at the door, and take it in yourself. Done it many times.

Bruce Hayden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bruce Hayden said...

"which would make it even harder for someone his age.

Now, that right there is some funny shit. Got any more of that, Sparky?"

Guy looked a bit soft and overweight. He had held down mostly white collar jobs. I don't think that I would have had the stamina for doing what he apparently did, being similarly situated. Yes, I know guys that old who could have. But that guy? Maybe not.

Birches said...

Blogger HoodlumDoodlum said...
Ann Althouse said... It could be a lie or a distorted recollection that got twisted in the retelling. Did anyone get that on video?

Or it could be completely unrelated to the actual mass murder. People say and do weird things all the time, but since nothing big happens afterwards no one remembers the weirdness or gives it any import.

I am trying to work out WHY people are so eager to JFK this! When Alex Jones (or whoever--I'm not positive it was him) did that around the Sandy Hook mass murder we all agreed it was despicable. I would have thought prudent people would at least have a little more reluctance to jump in on this one so quickly.


I agree with every word of this.

I think the reason people are looking for conspiracy is because the man's motives are so unknown. And that's a bit unsettling. He was very methodical, trained beforehand and rich. I take comfort in the fact that most mass murderers aren't capable of all three.

Bruce Hayden said...

"Apparently, this guy was working on a bomb alternative and did shoot at aviation fuel storage tanks, intending to create an inferno at the concert site. "

Apparently he had watched too much TV and movies, and missed the Myth Busters episode where they tried to blow up a car by shooting the gas tank.

FullMoon said...

ALSO: "Before targeting the Route 91 Harvest music festival, Paddock rented a room at a condominium complex overlooking the Life is Beautiful music festival (featuring rappers), another downtown event held between September 22 to September 25.... 'Was he doing pre-surveillance?

Soon as I saw that a couple of days ago, I assumed it was a diversion to say"He was going to target black people first, slaughter has nothing to do with targeting white country music fans".

If the stories about fuel tanks being targets are true, that is a better target because of potential explosions and fires.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Amadeus 48 said...How does this incident compare to the mass murders in San Bernardino, Paris, Orlando, and Manchester? The death totals were higher in Paris and comparable in Orlando and Manchester. France has tough gun laws (didn't help much), Britain has tough gun laws (he used a bomb), and Orlando is Orlando. San Bernardino was an example of a guy becoming a terrorist in plain sight. Isn't mass murder mass murder?

The most bananas, gaslighting-type willful obfuscation I've seen from the Media so far on this was yesterday when several prominent Media types said something like "if it'd been a Muslim using high powered weapons to commit mass murder the Republicans and NRA would be calling for bans, too." Like...did the Orlando Pulse mass murder not happen?! I know it did, and I know it was a Muslim dude who did it, and I know that murderous asshole Muslim made statements indicating he was committing those murders for a religious-terroristic purpose.

That wasn't even very long ago, but several people still felt that incident, or the "done buy a Muslim guy for extremist religious terrorist purposes" part of that incident, had been sufficiently memory-holed that that they could premise their unfair attack on the nonexistence of a thing we all should know exists! It's nuts.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

A count of the shell casings in the rooom will answer some of these questions and perhaps raise others. Does the hotel have liability for being used as the perch? (Stock price seems to say no.)

I'm curious whether Paddock got his stake in the real estate business from his father's bank robberies. Perhaps other members of the family got staked too, which would be a big family secret they are still protecting.

The brother who said Paddock owned only a couple of guns should be understood in the sense of the blackout drunk driver whose buddies say he had only a couple of beers. But it does appear Paddock started stocking up on weapons big time about a year ago. What happened back then?

Where did Paddock learn to use the bump stock? If they are not illegal in Nevada, could he have learned at a run of the mill Nevada shooting range?

Are we done with the it's not automatic it's semi-automatic bullshit?

Chuck said...

Right. I presumed, without even checking, that Althouse got to the website of a prepper/rapturist via a Drudge link. Over the last 36 hours, Drudge has even linked to InfoWars. Without irony.

MountainMan said...

This doesn't really contribute much to the conversation but I was catching up on Facebook yesterday and came across a posting from the retired CEO of the investment advisory firm I use. He had been in Vegas for a week or so with his older daughter and was in the Mandalay Bay in the corresponding room four floors above where Paddock did his shooting. Fortunately they were in their room at the time but it took them a while to figure out what was going on and that the shooting was coming from directly beneath them. They just hunkered down in their room until it was all over, terrified the whole time.

Birches said...

I assume all the casinos have a lot of information on him that they are doing their best to keep quiet as it could be damaging to them.

Casinos with the bottom line are not going to leak like a sieve. So we just wait.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Bruce Hayden said...Guy looked a bit soft and overweight. He had held down mostly white collar jobs. I don't think that I would have had the stamina for doing what he apparently did, being similarly situated. Yes, I know guys that old who could have. But that guy? Maybe not.

I hate to say it like this, but in all honesty it doesn't take very much strength or stamina at all. You can find plenty of videos of kids--literal children--successfully firing AR-15 style weapons without a problem. We're not talking about a very long period of time here, and even granting that the recoil at the rate of fire the murdererous asshole apparently achieved would be much greater all you'd need is a shooting rest, mount, bipod/tripod or similar to take care of almost all of that.

It's physically strenuous to carry around tons of ammo and march/maneuver through difficult terrain to find the enemy--infantry typically has to hump a heavy ruck to hell and back before they get to pull a trigger and that requires a strong, fit person. If your ammo is already there & loaded, your weapon has a rest or mount, and all you have to do is hold it and fire...that doesn't seem like something that takes a lot of strength or stamina, to me. Factor in adrenaline & the short time involved and it takes even less. Unfortunately.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Are we done with the it's not automatic it's semi-automatic bullshit?

What is the bullshit? The rifles are semi automatic weapons. The bump stock accessory turned them into 'sort of' automatic weapons. They are still not fully automatic weapons which are a completely different thing.

Because the semi autos were converted doesn't make the initial legal gun anything other than what it still is...a semi automatic weapon. Or mean that the original thing, semi auto rifle, should be banned because of the modifications that can be made.

It is the same thing as taking a manufactured vehicle and converting it into a nitro racing machine that is illegal on any street. Should we ban Dodge Chargers because someone might make a racing car out of them?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Chuck said...Right. I presumed, without even checking, that Althouse got to the website of a prepper/rapturist via a Drudge link.

You say prepper like it's a bad thing. Sneer all you want but the people in Puerto Rico probably wish they had a few more preppers around right about now.

tim in vermont said...

Simulated sex with penetration is not the same thing as real sex just like a jerry-rigged semi automatic is not a real automatic because reasons.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Left Bank of the Charles said...The brother who said Paddock owned only a couple of guns should be understood in the sense of the blackout drunk driver whose buddies say he had only a couple of beers. But it does appear Paddock started stocking up on weapons big time about a year ago. What happened back then?

Yeah, the news this morning said of the 40-something weapons he owned he bought 33 in the last 12 months. From the couple of pictures I saw it seemed like he had relatively high-quality stuff (pretty sure one AR was a Daniels Defense and they're higher-end), as well. I'm not sure what all of that means as far as motive, though.

tim in vermont said...

It was an airbnb, no maids, no room service.

tcrosse said...

All this is distracting from Hillary's book tour.

Chuck said...

A visit to the "50 most popular headlines" from the last few days of Drudge shows that #2 was Drudge linking to an InfoWars story with a headline asking if the shooter had been "radicalized."

http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/dsp/popular/index.htm

And Hoodlum; "prepping" for a hurricane in the Caribbean sounds rather logical to me. That kind of prepping would involve storm shutters, a generator, and a devotion to a safe and resilient public utility system.

Sensible "prepping" for a hurricane in the Caribbean would not involve semi-automatic weapons, body armor or camo overalls.

I suppose that there is a rather large gray area here. Flashlights, batteries, duct tape, toilet paper, water. Are those things the domain of what we think of for "preppers"? If so, maybe the term doesn't have much independent meaning.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

tim, I genuinely don't understand your objection to people using the correct terms. Being accurate HELPS your argument!

You want to prevent the availability of weapons or modifications that allow for a very high rate of fire. Automatic weapons achieve a high rate of fire by their nature--their standard operating mechanism is designed to easily allow a high rate of fire. Semi automatics with modifications like bump stocks make a high rate of fire possible, as well. A semi with a bump stock is still a semi--BUT it is capable of a higher rate of fire than a semi without a bump stock (capable of more-easily achieving that rate, anyway).

So if you want to prevent weapons that can achieve a high rate of fire being available then calling a semi an auto and saying we should ban autos works AGAINST your goal. You should instead say you want to ban autos and anything that makes it sufficiently easy for a semi to achieve a rate of fire comparable to an auto.

The people here saying you should use accurate nomenclature/descriptions aren't doing that to obscure some point or smuggle a false premise in, tim. You treating those people like they're acting in bad faith is not fair.

Bob Boyd said...

"I'm curious whether Paddock got his stake in the real estate business from his father's bank robberies. Perhaps other members of the family got staked too, which would be a big family secret they are still protecting."

From what I read, Paddock's father, Big Daddy Hoskins, got about $25,000 from robbing 3 banks in Arizona in 1960, after which he was arrested and sent to prison. He escaped in '69 and lived on the lam for 10 years in Oregon where he ran a bingo parlor. Eventually he was arrested for other crimes including rolling back odometers.

Unknown said...

LOL!

"Christian blog[edit]
Snyder has recently created a new blog where he attempts to interpret the Bible, called What The Bible Says About.... Considering his older signs of insanity claims to fame, this blog doesn't disappoint. It is filled with the same writing style and format, along with headers leading people to buy books by other fundamentalist cranks. Great topics include:

Christians can drink, but if they feel any effects of alcohol it's a sin.[11]
We are all lawbreakers of God's will. Including loving anything more than God at any time, doing anything on the sabbath, not honoring your mother/father completely, ever hating or holding anger towards anything/anyone, or lusting after a women (even thinking, including your own wife).[12]
Those who haven't accepted the word of God like Snyder has are comparable to rapists, murderers, and child molesters.[13]
Divorce is only acceptable if there is adultery or if one's spouse is not Christian. This does not include abuse. Snyder states that this is "because God knows best."[14]
Snyder is against homosexuality, and all sex outside of marriage. He does state first and foremost one thing that stands him out from the pack of fundamentalists, in that people should still love gays like every other one of God's creations.[15] So, y'know, at least there's that."

RationalWiki

HoodlumDoodlum said...

I suppose that there is a rather large gray area here. Flashlights, batteries, duct tape, toilet paper, water. Are those things the domain of what we think of for "preppers"? If so, maybe the term doesn't have much independent meaning.

Or maybe the term is general/generally understood meaning is different from the epithet you take it to be.
Yes--the things you list are 100% the domain of preppers, even of the looney "doomsday" type preppers you seem to be thinking of. Why would sensible hurricane prepping not involve personal weapons? The news from PR was that people on the interior could not get police or other first responders there for several days AND that there were some gangs/groups holding up trucks and doing some minor looting. Seems like being prepared to provide for one's own defense in a disaster situation where the government men with guns may not be around for a while is sensible, no?

Anyway, it's fine--just say "crazy preppers" or something and we'll drop it there. As a Life Long Republican I'm sure you understand why someone would object to someone insulting the ideas of self-sufficency and self-reliance or equating those things with insanity.

[shorter: Some preppers are crazy conspiracy-types, but a great many are not; conflating the two is needlessly insulting and is the kind of insult a big-government dependent Leftist might use.]

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bob Boyd said...

"a jerry-rigged semi automatic is not a real automatic because reasons."

It's really not automatic. The trigger still has to be pulled for every individual shot. The bump stock just makes that happen faster and more consistently.
Having said that, when I first read about these bump stocks a couple years ago I was surprised they hadn't been banned simply on the grounds that they sounded like fun.
Full disclosure, I've never fired a gun with a bump stock or even seen one in the flesh.

The sex isn't real sex argument worked for Bill Clinton...sort of.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

I notice a distinct lack of concern over a potential "backlash" after this mass murder.
That was a thing, right?
Like..."the real tragedy would be if we let this horrific act change how we feel about X."

Seems like that means something--that the Media hasn't really bought that up and definitely hasn't made it a focus of their coverage...seems meaningful.

This means something--this is important.

Bruce Hayden said...

The problem with banning bump stacks is that they are, apparently, very easy to build. Easiest, of course, with a modular firearm, like much of the AR family. They are something that can be, and likely would be (if made illegal). Manufactured in a myriad of garages around the country. Definitely not rocket science. Add to this that a trained shooter can shoot an AR-15 accurately awful quickly. Watched the guy in the next lane over do this last year at an indoor range. He blew through a 30 round magazine in maybe 10 seconds, which translates to almost 200 rounds per minute. And when he ran the target back in, he had shredded the center of it.

So, how do they ban bump stocks? Turning them legally into machine guns would stretch the current definition maybe to its breaking point. And then you would have the problem that millions of them out there would now be illegal? Sounds like a big Takings problem. Unless they were grandfathered like older machine guns were. But that would mean that there were millions of unregistered new machine guns out there. And maybe open up the entire subject of quasi-banning fully automatic firearms, which has always been problematic due to the Militia Clause of the 2nd Amdt. And, then there would be the fact problem that with millions out there, why haven't there been more people killed by shooters using them? If spread out over the years since first invented, we are in kids drowning in mop bucket territory statistically.

tim in vermont said...

achieve a high rate of fire being available then calling a semi an auto and saying we should ban autos works AGAINST your goal. You should instead say you want to ban autos and anything that makes it sufficiently easy for a semi to achieve a rate of fire comparable to an auto.


Which you want precisely defined so that a workaround is available the next day.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

But of course, multiple shooters destroys the official narrative and opens the door to an investigation that could expose, for example, an intentional false flag operation.

That's from the linked article but it's stupid. Why would a false flag operation require multiple shooters? I'll agree that a conspiracy/false flag operation would involve multiple PEOPLE/PARTICIPANTS, but why would such a plan REQUIRE more than one shooter? Furthermore why would the presence of more than one shooter make it more likely to be a false flag op? It would mean, definitionally, that there's a conspiracy, but that conspiracy need not be directed by nor involve government/people perpetrating a false flag op.
Stupid.

tcrosse said...

I notice a distinct lack of concern over a potential "backlash" after this mass murder.

Rich old (straight) cis-gendered white male gun-owners are already sufficiently hated.

Gospace said...

He was shooting down, not across. In a crowd, shooting across without aiming means if you miss one person, another should be in line. Shooting down, a person has to be in the square where the bullet is landing. I've seen some photos of chairs and lounges left behind. People were not packed like sardines in the concert area.

I saw 3 leaked pictures of his hotel room floor, including where his corpse lay. I counted less then 50 casings. The floor should have been littered with brass. He wan't policing the area after each magazine like he was on a range.

Reports state he fired over 200 rounds at the security guard on the 32nd floor. More casings.

The casualty count for the reported number or rounds fired is way abnormally high for what amounts to random shooting down into a crowd. And from that distance using the weapons he was using, with his complete lack of weapons training, it amounts to random shooting into a crowd, not aimed shots. Lots of shots would be landing in the same square.

The numbers make no sense for a single shooter from that distance. A wound analysis of victims should show the same thing. An angled shot through the body, high entry low exit.

Gospace said...

One last oddity- reports are the musicians on stage heard the shots. WTF? There's absolutely no way musicians on stage heard shots from that distance with the music noise around them.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

tim in vermont said...Which you want precisely defined so that a workaround is available the next day.

tim, buddy, I'm trying here but I'm still genuinely baffled. ANY precise definition in the LAW is going to to be subject to people working around the letter of the law, yes. That's essentially what bump stocks and similar devices do today. That's the nature of law, tim, and has nothing at all to do with whether you use the correct definition for a thing falling within the law or not.

I am not arguing that you can't make bump stocks illegal, tim. I'm not even arguing that you shouldn't! I'm saying that if you want to make something illegal or propose changing some law it will HELP your cause to be accurate when describing what you want to ban.

Again, accurately describing the thing you oppose will help you. If you call for a ban on automatics then you won't accomplish your goal--bump stocks & similar modifications are NOT automatics so you ban wouldn't do away with them.

It's a bit like people complaining about "tax loopholes," tim. If people are following the letter of the law then change the law. You can't just say "things I don't like should be banned, but anyone who asks me to be specific and accurate when describing what I want to be is unreasonable."

Bob Boyd said...

If it turns out occasional massacres of this type actually are the price of freedom, then what?

Bruce Hayden said...

We aren't really talking "prepped" territory here, but rather government conspiracy theories. JFK grassy knoll territory. But think of this - the FBI is the lead agency here. They have the capability to have fingerprinted the arsenal of firearms collected to see if there was a second shooter, and if there were, probably to identify them. If that person has shot very much, then their prints are very likely in their database - they have better than a dozen copies of mine, including one set for each of my 3 CCW permits. And they should likely know which firearms were used to shoot which casings. We haven't heard a thing, of course. Why not trust the FBI? This is, of course, the agency whose former head illegally leaked conversations with the President in order to get a special prosecutor appointed to take him down. Who stood in front of the American people, laying out probable cause that Crooked Hillary committed hundreds, if not thousands, of felonies, with her private email server, then recommended that she not be indicted. The same agency that probably lied to a FISA judge to get a FISA warrant to surveil Trump's former campaign manager, likely resulting in the recording of conversations with the incoming President, allowed political operatives in the Obama White House to unmask the identities of those whose conversations were intercepted by their FISA wiretaps (etc), and is currently stonewalling Congress about it.

As for the Clark County Sheriffs office (apparently, they do the policing for all the cities in the Las Vegas area), Vegas is a gambling town that was originally built by the mafia. And the mayor fairly recently was a mob lawyer. Sure, a lot of the corruption has moved to the boardroom, but probably the biggest private employer in the area is, I believe, MGM, which owns (I believe) the Mandalay Bay (after apparently buying it from Steve Wynn, who can't get a gaming license in his own name, thanks to his mob connections). Maybe they are clean now, but haven't always been.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Gospace said...One last oddity- reports are the musicians on stage heard the shots. WTF? There's absolutely no way musicians on stage heard shots from that distance with the music noise around them.

Respectfully, Gospace, there are videos on YouTube from the concert itself--including one very near the stage--that answer your question/objection. The videos are not difficult to find.
The main singer was at the center of the stage when the first long string of shots occur (I think there was at least one shorter string before that). On the video you can hear the sound of the shots clearly--they aren't loud compared to the music and they don't sound like movie/TV gunshots, but you can hear them. The singer doesn't immediately react and may not have heard them himself, but he turns around and looks at someone behind him and then hustles back off the stage--I'd bet someone at the back of the stage saw or heard the shots and told the people up there to get the hell back.

Anyway from the video you can hear more than 50 shots. I'm not sure if you've ever fired an AR-15 or similar style weapon in an enclosed space (like a bay at shooting range) but the brass doesn't land in a neat pile in one place. Since the window was open it's possible some cases went outside, as well. Also unless I've missed them we haven't seen pictures showing a comprehensive/full view of the two rooms/suites and for the pictures that did leak I'm not sure we know with certainty where those are in relation to the position(s) from which he was shooting.

Anyway "the leaked pictures we've seen from the interior of the room show fewer spent casing that I expected to see based on the current estimate of the number of shots fired and/or the number of shots I believe were fired in order to wound and kill as many people as were" is maybe not the strongest evidence or form of evidence.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Bob Boyd said...If it turns out occasional massacres of this type actually are the price of freedom, then what?"

"Part and parcel of living in a big city." Yeah, we haven't heard that this time, either.

Bruce Hayden said...

In regards to the FBI, they are the agency whose sharpshooter shot Randy Weaver's wife, apparently mistaking the baby in her arms with a firearm, and while the ATF started the siege at Waco, the FBI is the agency that ended it, resulting in the incineration of so many people, including a number of children. A lot of people still remember these incidents. (Note - I am currently sitting less than 100 miles, by air, from Ruby Ridge, where Mrs Weaver was assassinated by the FBI).

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Bruce - ok, sure, but if your starting position is that the FBI and Clark County/LV investigators are both already untrustworthy then I'm not sure what evidence could possibly be presented to change your mind. That's tantamount to a religious belief, then: if the nature of your belief or claim is unfalsifiable, by structure or by design, then there's not much point in arguing, right?

The FBI is preemptively dirty/compromised/untrustworthy. Ok. But that means anything the FBI does, says, or influences will be subject to rejection for just that reason (no matter how otherwise-compelling) and since the FBI is and will be involved in the investigation you essentially have a veto or "free to ignore anything" card to use any time. Right?

The investigators can't be trusted and any purported "evidence" that will be presented in this case should be rejected if I don't like it. Ok, but then the only thing left is your own hunch or feelings or predetermined conclusions, right? That's fine, but since those are impossible to objectively refute it precludes all debate or substantive discussion.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

(Kinda weird to find myself the one arguing that it's not productive to automatically assume the worst about government agencies--specifically about federal government agencies!--but here we are.)

Brookzene said...

One last oddity- reports are the musicians on stage heard the shots. WTF? There's absolutely no way musicians on stage heard shots from that distance with the music noise around them.

Firing starts. Musicians can soon see something happening in the audience - doesn't look good at all. Several people go down. A number of people near a person who is suddenly shot act panicky - start running. Doesn't seem hard to imagine some musicians see this even from the distance of the stage. They may not know what it is but they are alarmed enough to stop playing their instruments. Noise level lessens.

Brookzene said...

In an absolute sense the more we are subject to being massacred while going about our business the less freedom we really have.

tim in vermont said...

In an absolute sense the more we are subject to being massacred while going about our business the less freedom we really have.

If you look at absolute numbers, then the above is true only if you surrender to irrational fear. Like you are not free to fly on an airplane, drive in a car, that kind of stuff. My suggestion is Xanex.

Brookzene said...

Irrational or not, I wonder if other commenters feel certain that a lot of people will never go to a concert again because of what happened in Brussels and Las Vegas. I haven't heard anything on this but it's my sense and my belief that a lot of people have silently resolved to stay home and watch tv instead.

tim in vermont said...

it will HELP your cause to be accurate when describing what you want to ban.

Since you, DBQ, and many others here have made a convincing case that you can't effectively ban techniques for making a semi-automatic into an automatic, I would say that the design of the semi-auto needs to be changed, and the current ones treated like machine guns have been.

Chuck said...

Bruce Hayden you are walking right into the question I raised above; Trump has been out saying that law enforcement in Vegas has been wonderful and heroic and doing a great job and everything. Are you saying that the FBI and the LVMP and the Clark County Sheriffs are all unreliable and/or corrupt? Is there a conspiracy of some kind that President Trump is overlooking, or glossing over? Is Trump such a feckless president that he can't see what you are seeing, and straighten it out?

tim in vermont said...

Irrational or not, I wonder if other commenters feel certain that a lot of people will never go to a concert again because of what happened in Brussels and Las Vegas.

This is the reason that despite Obama's rhetoric, he doubled down on the Patriot Act, which we all know he politically abused later on, and probably earlier. A political party can't stay in power if they ignore the safety of their citizens, even if they ran on goofy platforms of increasing the exposure to terrorism, as Obama did.

Bob Boyd said...

"My suggestion is Xanex"

That's what Stephen Paddocks doctor said.
And then the troubles began.

Sofa King said...

Since nobody else mentioned it, I'll just point out that a light that strobes at some high frequency, such as some fluorescents and some LED bulbs, can appear to strobe at a much lower frequency when viewed through a shutter of a different frequency. This could possibly account for the strobing light that appears in one of the windows.

buwaya said...

"I would say that the design of the semi-auto needs to be changed, and the current ones treated like machine guns have been."

There are at least 20 million of these things (semi-auto rifles of similar capabilities, basic designs based on AR-15, AK 47, Mini-14, and misc others) in the hands of the US public already.

And they aren't difficult to make. And there is a huge decentralized cottage industry making and modifying them, to the extent that it is a folk art. And there are huge parts of the public that will bitterly oppose being disarmed.

And the whole problem above is just a symptom of deeper social-cultural dysfunction.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

tim in vermont said...Since you, DBQ, and many others here have made a convincing case that you can't effectively ban techniques for making a semi-automatic into an automatic, I would say that the design of the semi-auto needs to be changed, and the current ones treated like machine guns have been.

OK! See? Perfect--that's exactly what you should say, tim--that's accurate in a technical sense and accurately expresses what you want to argue for. You want to make ownership of an automatic weapon or any weapon capable of being fired at a rate approximating an automatic to be impossible or at least subject to very heavy regulation.

I understand exactly what you mean and no one can give you a hard time about using the wrong term or not being specific enough.

Thanks!

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Brookenze said.... Doesn't seem hard to imagine some musicians see this even from the distance of the stage. They may not know what it is but they are alarmed enough to stop playing their instruments. Noise level lessens.

Yep, and what's more you don't really have to imagine it--there's cell phone footage of it happening. The singer guy's center stage, looks around, the music stop and he or someone else on mic says "what" or is cut off from saying something, he turns around and looks backwards and then moves quickly off stage, directly to the rear. I think a couple of people from the side of the stage move back just before that, too.
All of that happens just after a long string of shots, which as I said I think was not the first string that the murderer fired.

Todd said...

tim in vermont said...

Which you want precisely defined so that a workaround is available the next day.

10/5/17, 11:43 AM


The workaround is already available and has been before the latest "evil made physical" bump-stock became a thing. You can do the same thing that a bump-stock does using just the belt-loop on your pants. Check youtube, there are dozens of videos showing it being done. You want to ban belt-loops on pants?

Spoons don't make you fat, pencils don't write mis-spelled words, cars don't drive drunk, and guns don't shoot people. Banning things does not work. Country has been trying for over a hundred years to ban "bad" things away and it just does not work.

Edmund said...

@HoodlumDoodlum said The singer doesn't immediately react and may not have heard them himself, but he turns around and looks at someone behind him and then hustles back off the stage--I'd bet someone at the back of the stage saw or heard the shots and told the people up there to get the hell back.

Most music acts today have earpieces in both ears that feed the mix from the soundboard to the performers and also act as ear protection. They may not have heard the shots if it wasn't picked up by the stage mikes or was faint.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Since you, DBQ, and many others here have made a convincing case that you can't effectively ban techniques for making a semi-automatic into an automatic, I would say that the design of the semi-auto needs to be changed, and the current ones treated like machine guns have been.

Finally! we get to the truth of the matter. You want to ban a tool, a weapon that is legal, safe when used responsibly and owned by millions (I'm guessing about the numbers) of law abiding citizens because some lunatic has been able to modify said legal and common tool.

You want to punish everyone for the actions of a minuscule group. You want to take away the rights of and the property of millions of citizens.

Thanks for making your position crystal clear.

Birches said...

Reading through these comments I'm reminded of a line from "The Boxer:" Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

Some of you are a hoping a little too much for conspiracy.

Fritz said...

I scanned the comments and didn't see this cited. Anyone who wonders about the old guys (he was about my age) ability to be bat shit crazy and still carry this out needs to read this.

A Theory on Las Vegas

I'm not saying this is what happened, but it sure could.

HT said...

Scott Adams is outraged that WH only thinking of banning the bump. Let me refresh Althouse to read the post.

They need to be banned today, period, he says.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Edmund said...Most music acts today have earpieces in both ears that feed the mix from the soundboard to the performers and also act as ear protection. They may not have heard the shots if it wasn't picked up by the stage mikes or was faint.

Yeah, I started to speculate that someone said something to him in his earpiece and that's what made him turn around but I'm not sure if those act as just a monitor (putting out what the stage mics pick up) or if someone backstage can talk on that line, too. I'd assume they can (for coordinating stage directions/moves, etc) but I didn't want to guess. I'm...not in showbiz, myself.

Earnest Prole said...

In case you're wondering why I linked to that and whether I'm a conspiracy-theory nut

You edited out the nuttiest questions.

HT said...

Brookzene said...

Irrational or not, I wonder if other commenters feel certain that a lot of people will never go to a concert again because of what happened in Brussels and Las Vegas. I haven't heard anything on this but it's my sense and my belief that a lot of people have silently resolved to stay home and watch tv instead.
10/5/17, 12:57 PM


Yes, I think you're right. Scott Adams said he doesn't go to events with large crowds for that reason (and didn't, before Sunday night).

HT said...

"I agree that it wasn't a suicide note, but you might want to drop the Clintonism "old news" if you want to keep your credibility, since usually that is what they said about true things that they didn't want to talk about."

I see you like my word salad, though. Otherwise, I really don't understand what you mean, and it doesn't matter anyway.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

tim in vermont said...

...I would say that the design of the semi-auto needs to be changed, and the current ones treated like machine guns have been.

You'd probably save many more lives by fixing the design flaw in automobiles that lets them go faster than the speed limit.

HT said...

"Country has been trying for over a hundred years to ban "bad" things away and it just does not work."

I know. If only the lung cancer rate had gone down.

Brookzene said...

NRA saying bump stops should be better regulated. Interesting.

Todd said...

HT said...
"Country has been trying for over a hundred years to ban "bad" things away and it just does not work."

I know. If only the lung cancer rate had gone down.

10/5/17, 2:56 PM


Cute but I can still legally purchase cigarettes, cigars, pipe tobacco, etc.

On that subject, if folks really want to help, they should be handing out e-cigs but they don't because helping is never the point. Nannyism and power over others always is. Yet another reason I like having the 2A...

Robert said...

"#4 As Jon Rappoport has pointed out, it would have been impossible for Stephen Paddock to kill and wound 573 people in less than five minutes of shooting with the kinds of weapons that he is alleged to have used. "

Why does he assume every injured person was shot? I'd guess quite a few injuries occurred from the mad scramble to avoid getting shot, and to escape the penned in area.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

NRA saying bump stops should be better regulated. Interesting.

Not really interesting. It is just a way for the NRA to give in on a meaningless point and might satisfy the slavering gun control people....for a while anyway.

Ban or regulate bump stocks. Fine. Who really cares? Some other method will be devised. The American people are nothing if not inventive. You don't even need an accessory as other have pointed out. Where there is a will, there is a way.

So the NRA concedes a nothing point and comes out looking more reasonable or less inflexible.

Brookzene said...

I just don't think the NRA has ever concede a point before. That's part of what makes it interesting.

William said...

It's my understanding that bump stops cause the weapon to jam or overheat. They're only useful if you have a few more weapons to spare. Also, it only takes a modicum of mechanical aptitude to jury rig the contraption. So this is much ado about nothing......it does seem that mass killers in America are more resourceful and better planners than the imported ones.

Jim at said...

"Ann, why do you continue to traffic in this shit? You are becoming just another right wing conspiracy nut."

Why don't you provide us all the answers then.

tim in vermont said...

"Ban or regulate bump stocks. Fine. Who really cares? Some other method will be devised. The American people are nothing if not inventive."

Sigh, I guess all of the posts on persuasion were wasted, because that's not persuasively arguing that semi-automatic is a misnomer.

Bruce Hayden said...

@Hoodlum. - actually, right now, I am more trusting of the local LEOs than of the FBI. I worked for one of the biggest law firms in NV, and didn't really hear of much actual corruption. I was setting out a justification for mistrusting the investigation. A lot though distrust the FBI right now, and I would attribute much of that to Comey and the people he left at the top there. They seem to be an integral part of the "deep state", trying to delegitimize and/or remove Trump and his people. I will maybe start trusting them if and when we start seeing indictments coming down for all the leaking going on. Much of was illegal. Most here, at least know that, yet, the govt leakers did so with apparent impunity. The comments about Ruby Ridge and Waco were to show why a number of people are disposed to distrust them.

'TreHammer said...

How do you break open two windows on the upper floors of a hotel and not have anyone notice it?

Gahrie said...

How do you break open two windows on the upper floors of a hotel and not have anyone notice it?

Do it at night, during a country western concert, and immediately start killing people.....

Bruce Hayden said...

Talk about a small world. Was composing my last post (above) while waiting for a guy to sight in a couple riles while at the range today. He was going antelope hunting tomorrow. I was shooting a handgun, while he had those two rifles, so for safety reasons had to alternate. I was complaining about one of my Magpul Glock magazines jamming. Finally got it disassembled, and turned out that one of the rounds stuck in it was too long, and hence the jam. We laughed at it, and then the discussion turned to politics. He was a former state Senator, so was well informed. Got into the Las Vegas shooting, and I mentioned the FBI. He commented that he met a number of them while a working in the state capital, and the lower level agents were straight shooters. But the management, not so much (Expect that Dr K's FBI daughter would agree). Then he mentioned that he was at the state fair this summer in Kalispell, and ran into a father and daughter named Randy and Sarah, respectively. Started talking to them, and, sure enough, it was the Weavers, who had moved to that area after the Ruby Ridge shooting of their wife/mother. He got them to autograph a book of theirs.

Bruce Hayden said...

Sorry - not state fair, but Flathead county fair.

Jupiter said...

Chuck said...

"When the Althouse comments turn against me personally, I know that I have made a valid point."

And it is rare indeed, for Chuck to comment without making a valid point. The same valid point every time, as a matter of fact.

mockturtle said...

They're saying the note was not a suicide not. So....what did it say?

grackle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
HoodlumDoodlum said...

No,I get it, Bruce--my point is that I am usually the one who pushes distrust if Big Gov & their Media pals. You will have to try hard to get me to take the other side of that argument, so my temporarily occupying it in this thread is unusual and possibly ironic.
A little TOO ironic, don't you think?

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