1. Trump did not say You must respect. He didn't even say You must stop disrespecting. He only made an observation about cause and effect: If fans stop attending games because the showing of disrespect is part of the spectator experience, it will create market pressure on management and players to improve their product to win back their customers.
2. There is a difference between outward display and what is in a person's heart, but you can refrain from displaying disrespect toward people and things you don't respect because you, in fact, do have a sincere appreciation for peace and civility or because it's in your social or economic interest. That's something most of us do every day, when we refrain from vocalizing random unkind thoughts or smile and speak pleasantly to people who are bothering us for one reason or another.
3. Let's assume that management gets the message that the product — a football game — is unacceptable to the customers — the spectators — without the traditional opening ceremony — all players standing as a group and not drawing attention to their own individual opinions. How can management insure that every single player goes along? Trump's idea is: Just make it clear that it's a firing offense. Presumably, then, every man would stand there as required.
4. Now, the problem raised by rhhardin is that we would know they were all just standing there like that because of the firing threat. When the camera shows the faces of the players, there'd be static in the old-time fan-fantasy that these guys really love our country. We might think: Oh, he's just doing what they forced him to do.* That's not real love. He might be seething inside, hating the country even more, because he knows he's doing it for the money. ("[T]he average salary of an NFL player is only $1.9 million per year.")
5. The serious question — as I hear rhhardin's pithy comment — is what is the satisfaction for the fans? How will they experience the new product? It may look like respect, but we know what some of them are really thinking, and they're only acting respectful because their livelihood was put on the line. Let's do a poll:
_______________________
* As I read this post out loud, this sentence makes Meade start singing the same Bob Dylan line that was in my head as I was writing: "Sooner or later, one of us must know/That you were just doin' what you’re supposed to do..."
ADDED: Poll results:
Posts
337 comments:
1 – 200 of 337 Newer› Newest»Thread winner on post below on the question of "Forced respect is submission" was comment "Bake me a cake" .
Or perhaps "Make floral displays for my wedding".
The love that dare not speak its name has become the love that just won't STFU.
I think pro football is in trouble and was the past couple of years.
This is making it worse. The Anthem thing is only a small part that is visible. The St Louis Rams came out for a game last year with the black players holding arms up in the "Don't Shoot" posture. This year they are in Los Angeles and have 50% attendance at games.
The teams are starting to move around looking for money but the well is drying up.
"Thread winner on post below on the question of "Forced respect is submission" was comment "Bake me a cake" ."
Yes, I was just coming in here to recognize that comment, which was by Greg Hlatky:
"Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission."
Bake me a cake.
If President Obama had called for a boycott of the NFL until the league forced the Washington Redskins to change their offensive name Ann and her minions would have freaked out.
That shows you where Ann's heart is.
Good on you, Greg Hlatky. Very good indeed.
There was a time the NBA fined (and I believe suspended) a player for not respecting the national anthem.
Looking at kneeling from the opposite direction:
Football as Church.
Do you stand as the others kneel?
I am Laslo.
If President Obama had called for a boycott of the NFL until the league forced the Washington Redskins to change their offensive name Ann and her minions would have freaked out.
I bet Althouse would have supported Obama.
That makes no sense. If I attend a USA-Russia or Canada-Russia hockey game, I will stand quietly for the Russian anthem. I won't have my hand on my heart and I won't sing along, but I will show a quiet non-disrespect. That's all that these over-paid thugs need to do.
Progressives buy the lies Rachel Maddow and CNN sell them, and they react with knees, pig socks, anger, rage, -
It's Ferguson. It's robbing, looting and burning down local businesses because your rage must be assuaged. and your rage is based on a lie.
Someone must pay for "hands up don't shoot" even though "hands up don't shoot" never happened.
The left has been destroying social norms and mores for the last fifty years, but lose their shit and whine if Trump, a conservative or a Republican does the same.
If President Obama had called for a boycott of the NFL until the league forced the Washington Redskins to change their offensive name Ann and her minions would have freaked out.
I bet Althouse would have displayed ruthless neutrality.
There are plenty of non-Americans in the NHL, and a few in the NBA. They are capable of showing respect without adherence.
If President Obama had called for a boycott of the NFL until the league forced the Washington Redskins to change their offensive name Ann and her minions would have freaked out.
How little you know.
There would have been no boycott by fans who 85% were not Obama voters.
The big sponsors might have gone along. Leftist boycotts work on people like O'Reilly but Rush Limbaugh has made himself immune by relying on local sponsors for his radio show.
A question posted on the earlier thread...
Ho would the NFL react if a player refused to wear pink during the annual Breast Cancer Awareness display of virtue?
There should really be another option in the poll: "Making this a "Safe Zone" from unwanted or needed political activism would allow fans of all political persuasion to concentrate on the game."
It is like the unspoken agreements I have with friends who far to my left. Don't kick me in the shins, I won't kick you in the shins, and we can both enjoy the hobbies and activities we do have in common. It works amazingly well.
My question is, why is the kneeling different than streaking?
It occasionally happens, and whichever network is broadcasting the game goes out of their way to not show it, because showing it would encourage others, detract from the game, hurt ratings. Sure, you can find it on youtube, because fans have cell phones. But it would not be in the face of the fans watching from home.
Opening ceremonies have been irreparably harmed.
My father once told me that he was a German father, next to God, and I would respect him. I replied that respect had to be earned. Luckily he didn't land the punch he swung at my face.
Some things can't be fixed.
Has the NFL Players Union proposed removing the Anthem from the games?
If not, why not?
Is not the Anthem anathema to them and their solidarity?
Is there a reason for enduring the death of a thousand paper cuts?
Remove the Anthem and let the fans decide their response.
I am Laslo.
I'm retired military, so I guess my biases speak for themselves (although I know several retired military who disagree with me). That being said, the standing for the National Anthem at the beginning of sporting events is a social convention, so there is an expectation that people will stand and show the flag respect (I put down my beer, remove my hat, face the flag, stand at attention - that was the military courtesy that I, as a veteran, am pretty much required to render). The minimum I think is to stand up, remove one's hat, and keep quiet (or sing along, if you must - except at Camden Yards, where the fans emphasize the "O" in "O, say does that star spangled banner yet wave" - O for Orioles - get it? Ugh).
Anyway, I think the outward display is what's important. I know it's superficial, but much of what we do is superficial (like the smile at someone who is really annoying you). I grow tired of the "he has a right to protest!" argument. Of course he does. I have the right to burn the flag, but SHOULD I do it? It's basic manners, I suppose.
Lastly, I also cringe at the whole media commentary that salutes athletes for "getting involved" - what they mean is involved in left-wing causes (or at least causes they agree with). If a football player took a knee to protest the number of abortions in this country performed every year, I doubt there would be as much praise for getting involved.
Jason has it right
https://twitter.com/WhitlockJason/status/779436527164141568
The collective left would love to replace our national anthem with some sort of moral preening guilt-song. Perhaps the Dixie Chicks can pen a song more fitting?
Oh say can you see
The evil white racists who didn't vote for Hillary
What so proudly we hailed
now democracy dies in darkness
pig socks pig socks pig socks
hands up don't shoot
You evil red state goot.
or something.
Here's a bit of a bizarre thought: Did Trump do this to demonstrate to the Norks and China that he is still a bit unbalanced, willing to push a cause that he knows he's going to get negative pushback on, but just doesn't care? You know; causing a sort of "What is this guy going to do next?!?" thought process. (I did say bizarre.) There has to be a reason other than he's pissed at Colin Kaepernick or Steph Curry. There HAS to be more to this than meets the eye.
As someone who supports the bakers and the wedding-site operators who do not want to participate in same-sex marriages, I tread very carefully on the subject of "forced speech." Even if the subject(s) are millionaire NFL players putting on a show carefully choreographed by the NFL.
What a stupid thing for Trump to walk into in his usual blundering way, in the form of a Tweet most particularly.
Where have you gone, Tim Tebow
Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you
Wu wu wu
What's that you say, Mr, Commissioner
Tim Tebow has left and gone away
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey
I am Laslo.
Trump did not say You must respect. He didn't even say You must stop disrespecting.
Actually he did. In addition to suggesting a boycott he wants the sons of bitches (his words) fired. Its pretty much act like a "true patriot" or lose your job.
I will point out the gross hypocrisy of many of the commenters here. A couple weeks ago when it was a Google employee complaining about affirmative action, you were outraged that he was fired. Now, you are only too willing to shitcan football players for staging a silent protest.
Trump says it is a privilege to play in the NFL. (In fact it is totally determined by merit.) Trump is now buttressing those on the left who say it is a privilege to serve as a CEO, etc.
If a football player took a knee to protest the number of abortions in this country performed every year, I doubt there would be as much praise for getting involved.
Again, Tim Tebow was mentioned last thread,
Only the Left is allowed to "demonstrate" as any whites involved are "white supremacists." Unless, of course, they are wearing masks and attacking ATMs.
only
I sadly remember those lean years when I only made $1.9 million a year
There has to be a reason other than he's pissed at Colin Kaepernick or Steph Curry. There HAS to be more to this than meets the eye.
Really?! What in Trump's history suggests this?
Let's have some players take a knee to protest abortion in America.
Things will escalate quickly.
I am Laslo.
"In fact it is totally determined by merit."
No, it is determined by size and agility which has nothing to do with merit.
Are all lefties this dumb?
Just saw Richard Taylor's 11:16 comment re: abortion protest.
Indeed.
I am Laslo.
Submission is sufficient for the left (in fact, it's their goal), why wouldn't it be sufficient for the right?
Fine Michael K, playing in the NFL is a privilege, just like serving as a CEO.
So here I am, Sunday, preparing to watch a bunch of black guys, on PED's, many of whom are barely literate not withstanding their 'College Degree', denigrate their country's flag, and what it stands for while pushing a silly little oblique ball up and down a field to the delight of white fantasy footballers, gamblers and others who just like to watch the pig squeal.
@Malcom Great piece! So painfully true. Thanks.
No, it is determined by size and agility which has nothing to do with merit.
What a silly argument. Size and agility are part of the merit that is required to play football. To reach the NFL you have to have a whole lot more skill and commitment than simply "size and agility"
I agree with Richard Taylor.
This problem makes me think of Lee v. Weisman, the Establishment Clause case about coerced prayer at a graduation. The assembly only had to listen respectfully while a rabbi read a prayer, but the majority regarded this as coercion. In dissent, Justice Scalia wrote:
"The Court declares that students' "attendance and participation in the [invocation and benediction] are in a fair and real sense obligatory." Ibid. But what exactly is this "fair and real sense"? According to the Court, students at graduation who want "to avoid the fact or appearance of participation," ante, at 8, in the invocation and benediction are psychologically obligated by "public pressure, as well as peer pressure, . . . to stand as a group or, at least, maintain respectful silence" during those prayers. Ante, at 13...
"But let us assume... that the nonparticipating graduate is "subtly coerced" . . . to stand! Even that half of the disjunctive does not remotely establish a "participation" (or an "appearance of participation") in a religious exercise. The Court acknowledges that "in our culture standing . . . can signify adherence to a view or simple respect for the views of others." Ante, at 13. (Much more often the latter than the former, I think, except perhaps in the proverbial town meeting, where one votes by standing.) But if it is a permissible inference that one who is standing is doing so simply out of respect for the prayers of others that are in progress, then how can it possibly be said that a "reasonable dissenter . . . could believe that the group exercise signified her own participation or approval"? Quite obviously, it cannot. I may add, moreover, that maintaining respect for the religious observances of others is a fundamental civic virtue that government (including the public schools) can and should cultivate — so that even if it were the case that the displaying of such respect might be mistaken for taking part in the prayer, I would deny that the dissenter's interest in avoiding even the false appearance of participation constitutionally trumps the government's interest in fostering respect for religion generally."
No Freder I am looking for consistency. If NFL players are violating the terms of their employment (most likely) , as Damore apparently did, then perhaps they should be treated the same way. That is essentially what Trump said. Why? God knows - other than he is a warrior against PC.
Trump should have just invited Colin Kaepernick to the White House. To debate Heather Mac Donald. On live television.
"Donald Trump Presents the Culture War Debates Series."
I have never been at a stadium standing during the National Anthem and seeing anyone else in the stands sitting. Fans stand, not only for patriotic reasons, but also because their fellow fans expect them to stand.
One of the reasons fans stand is because there is a general sense that it the right thing to do (regardless of what they feel in their heart). I think this is a key point.
Fans are right to feel that if they make the effort, the players should as well. During all these protests, I have never seen the camera focus on anyone sitting in the stands during the National Anthem. Probably because no one is sitting in the stands.
NFL players must be a protected class against firing, unlike private citizens who get doxxed for making their views known.
We need a Constitutional amendment to protect their rights.
@Freder His election victory while doing many similar things is quite suggestive.
Doin' what you're supposed to do has benefited humanity for eons. Why stop now?
The problem is there are some kneelers on every team, like oil in the cake.
So:
Trade kneelers to teams whose owners support kneeling.
Trade those who stand to teams whose owners reject kneeling.
The SJW Conference and the Patriot Conference.
Would make some games more exciting.
I am Laslo.
Trump has chosen the dumbest, Trumpiest way of approaching a problem where I might actually agree with Trump.
Instead of carefully taking apart the substantive arguments of Colin Kaepernick (which can and should be done), Trump appeals to the lowest of low common denominators; it's disrespectful to the flag, and the country, and it's bad business for the NFL.
Let's have some players take a knee to protest abortion in America.
Things will escalate quickly.
Exactly.
"A couple weeks ago when it was a Google employee complaining about affirmative action, you were outraged that he was fired. Now, you are only too willing to shitcan football players for staging a silent protest."
This is the society that liberals build. Now we need to force them to live to according to its rules.
Now go and bake me a cake.
The Scalia opinion I mention above says " The Court acknowledges that "in our culture standing . . . can signify adherence to a view or simple respect for the views of others." Here's how the majority opinion (by Justice Kennedy) put it:
"There can be no doubt that for many, if not most, of the students at the graduation, the act of standing or remaining silent was an expression of participation in the Rabbi's prayer. That was the very point of the religious exercise. It is of little comfort to a dissenter, then, to be told that for her the act of standing or remaining in silence signifies mere respect, rather than participation. What matters is that, given our social conventions, a reasonable dissenter in this milieu could believe that the group exercise signified her own participation or approval of it."
Note the words "mere respect," which seems to undercut the original rhhardin assertion in the post title. "Respect" isn't that much. It's less than a conveyance of agreement. The problem in Lee had to do with whether there is a distinction between showing respect and being forced, essentially, to express belief in something you have a right to be free not to express.
Let them protest as they wish about what they wish. Perhaps put a small sign to your side to see what you are pissed about today. Large groups of kneeling for the hot topics, lesser groups for the less current fashion, solo for the individual outrages we all face.
Even a "this space for rent" sign for the guys not able to make it on that $1.9 million average.
Let players sign whatever song they feel appropriate. But I draw the line at auto-tune. Some things are sacred.
Penalties can be modified:
- 15 yards and ejection from the game for white privilege.
- 5 yards for holding onto outdated concepts of morality.
Throwback uniforms could be white robes and hoods.....
Serve it up NFL/NBA/MLB there are lots of ways to be entertained in this world.
"Instead of carefully taking apart the substantive arguments of Colin Kaepernick (which can and should be done), Trump appeals to the lowest of low common denominators; it's disrespectful to the flag, and the country, and it's bad business for the NFL."
President Trump is using the liberal playbook against liberals. You don't negotiate with fascists, you destroy them.
sign = sing, of course.
"Fine Michael K, playing in the NFL is a privilege, just like serving as a CEO."
You don't understand but that is no surprise.
A football player is born with the basics of what is needed. A lot of practice and motivation is necessary.
They are privileged because someone is willing to pay for watching of them play a game.
A CEO is born with the IQ and motivation but the rest is not a game. The people paying him/her expect a return other than watching a game.
CEO salaries are high because there is so much that is not predictable about success and the ability to make money is hard to find.
Steve Jobs was a marketing genius. He was fired from the company he started and it failed. He was hired back and it thrived.
"Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission"
Think about that and Islam.
Perhaps I don't tune in at the correct time (early enough) but I never see the playing of the National Anthem before NE Patriots televised games, or Red Sox baseball games. When I do see it before NHL hockey games, the players, nearly to a man, appear distant and disinterested.
The tradition of playing the anthem before professional sports matches does strike me as odd. Personally I'd be ok if they did away with it.
-sw
Players are already forced to suppress personal feelings, for example not over-celebrating a touch down or showing poor sportsmanship, or wearing your own personal wardrobe choices. It's not cheating, and doesn't affect the score, but the NFL decided it was bad for the game, so they simply make it a penalty. What is so different about this, except that many fans find it far more offensive. I know it's impossible for the left and other immature posers to accept, but in employment situations and contracts you simply have rules, and they should be enforced or changed if needed. If you break them before they are changed, you get the enforcement. You feel strongly against the rule, you pay the price for your courage.
"You feel strongly against the rule, you pay the price for your courage."
Go to work out of uniform. See how that goes.
Trump is exploiting a wedge issue. He's picking a side and forcing people to do the same, as Obama did time and again. He picks different issues. Trump is generating a response but doing it in a harmless fashion via twitter rather than executive order, dear colleague letters or policy decisions. I think Mr Trump will prove to be better at this game than his predecessor because he isn't a pedantic bore.
Trump is using the office of the Presidency to tell owners of private companies how to run their businesses. He is calling for a consumer boycott if they don't follow his edict.
This precedent will be very useful for the left in the future.
While at UCLA, Bill Walton came to the year's first practice with a beard and told John Wooden he had a right to do so. Wooden replied, "I admire people with the courage of their convictions. Bill, we're really going to miss you."
Re: My earlier post, I guess I should say that I think Trump should have kept out of this and that it is a bit unseemly. The pearl clutching is what one would expect, though.
"Doin' what you're supposed to do has benefited humanity for eons. Why stop now?"
You're assuming that "what you're supposed to do" is clear. If someone in authority coerces you — for example, with economic pressure — is that now what "you're supposed to do"? In this case, the protesting players claim that they are morally "supposed to do" something else.
But I think it could be easy to say that standing respectfully does not express agreement with what the playing of the National Anthem means, but there are at least some times when it is morally cowardly to remain silent when you are conspicuously in the presence of a statement that you object to. I don't think the playing of the National Anthem falls into this category. The protesting players seem to me to be appropriating a speech platform created by a huge business and a huge group of customers and using it to make and amplify their individual statement.
But sometimes people feel morally called to object to things that most of us might see as not important enough. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses believed that saluting the flag was worshiping a graven image and were having their children kicked out of school because of that. Even if you think they were wrong about perceiving a sin and going to that extreme to avoid it, you might want to say we ought to accommodate their scrupulosity.
"I will point out the gross hypocrisy of many of the commenters here. A couple weeks ago when it was a Google employee complaining about affirmative action, you were outraged that he was fired. Now, you are only too willing to shitcan football players for staging a silent protest."
Yes. The Trump sychophancy has become pervasive. These people are not only hypocrites, they no longer have a center of balance, any principles or morals, or did they truly ever? Trump just pointed the way to Crazyland, they happily followed.
The NFL is entertainment. As entertainers you don't want to alienate 62,979,984 members of your potential audience. But then on the other hand Hollywood does this everyday.
Players not supportive can come to the bench later.
The ultimate question being decided here is whether we have anything in common, as a nation, right now. It seems more and more that the answer is no.
The fools are protesting the very thing that gives them the right to protest. Wouldn't it be more logical to step forward and hold up a flag or a copy of the Bill of Rights while the anthem played?
At a graduation, students are not being employed and paid to perform in a certain way. What should be done about an actor playing King Lear if he insisted on doing it in hot pants and a tube top to protest cisgenderism?
Damore was criticizing his employer.
Maybe they should play Peter, Paul & Mary's rendition of If I Had A Hammer.. Right thinking players and spectators who wished to protest against protests could take the knee. Those who wished to demonstrate their passion for social justice could sing along and maybe raise a clenched fist on high.....Win win for everybody. People like to go to football games to demonstrate their political allegiances. That's the number one reason they go to games.
I was wondering when Ms. Althouse would address this part of the issue. The leftists are in a really, really tough spot on this one as is the NFL itself. The CTE issue is going to bankrupt the teams within 20 years, and it will only happen faster with the fans abandoning because of the infusion of politics both on television and at the stadiums now- neither of which was started by Trump or even his voters. Roger Goodell is a fool, and Trump is playing him like one.
Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission.
Not necessarily true. You do not have to be actually "respectful" or be reverent about something to show the proper social clues as to not offend others who DO truly respect or revere something.
I had often attended Rotary meeting as part of my business. The clubs that I frequented would usually have an invocation or mild prayer in the beginning as well as a salute to the flag. OK. Whatever.
I'm not especially religious, but other people are. Should I sit, pout, sulk and stare at the creamed chicken? Refuse to stand quietly while others are seriously praying? (Perhaps, they also are not that serious but who can tell) Maybe I should erupt into a loud diatribe about Atheism or the falseness of religion and the stupidity of people who believe in God? (Yah….not likely for many reasons.)
Or do you do the socially polite thing of just standing silently and think about your grocery list or something. It doesn't make me submissive. It doesn't inflict religion onto my psyche or make me scream Hallelujah! It isn't submission because it is just a momentary social nicety to respect the respect of OTHER people for their institution and their customs.
Being at Rotary is a voluntary action and if I am truly offended by the invocation, I can opt out and go do something else instead. Being a paid player on a NFL or NBA team is different. It is a JOB. When you are an employee you are obligated to follow the rules of your employer. Things such as standing in a respectful manner during certain events. Respectful manner. This doesn’t demand actual respect. It just demands that you stand because it is part of your JOB.
"Yes. The Trump sychophancy has become pervasive. These people are not only hypocrites, they no longer have a center of balance, any principles or morals, or did they truly ever? Trump just pointed the way to Crazyland, they happily followed."
Conservatives are making the liberals to live according to the rules the liberals force on conservatives. And liberals are upset.
Well, what can I say - except the obvious... "Bake me a cake".
Nationalism is frowned upon by the prog-left. Prog-left control entertainment. ESPN = prog left.
In France, Nationalism is fine. USA = If you show any outward pride towards your country, you must be a white supremacist Nazi .
Google slogan was do no evil.
Firing him they marked him.
Debate is about validation of the mark.
"In this case, the protesting players claim that they are morally "supposed to do" something else. "
They could claim that they are morally opposed to playing a game that damages players brains. That would be much more defensible. If they refuse to play for that reason should they be fired?
"I will point out the gross hypocrisy of many of the commenters here. A couple weeks ago when it was a Google employee complaining about affirmative action, you were outraged that he was fired. Now, you are only too willing to shitcan football players for staging a silent protest. "
Let's unpack Freder's observation.
This is a comparison between a Google engineer posting long email making an argument buttressed with facts and studies about a company policy, in a space the company set aside for just such discussions. He didn't protest, he didn't condemn Google, he didn't release a public statement nor make a public display.
Compare that to an NFL employee who makes a public display of himself, piggybacking in a place that has nothing to do with the problem, stealing the attention of a crowd there for another purpose. He is not an off-camera activist, and his actions have a direct effect on the company's bottom line (particularly since the NFL is not only enabling him, but encouraging more such displays of pique).
The outrage in the Google case is because they laid down one set of rules and assumptions (free discussion of issues) and revoked them when the CEO was uncomfortable when it was used in a way he did not like. It was especially egregious because Google's behavior ran afoul of California law, to use a hammer to smash a butterfly. Google could have said, "We respect what he says. We don't agree with it and will continue to pursue our policies," and I doubt anyone would have criticized them.
The NFL could have said to Colin, "What you do on your own time is your business. Just play football when you're in our house." That would have been a good compromise, too. Colin would have still been booed for his opinions, and he still would have been cut for his bad play, but the underlying support for free speech would have been maintained.
That's what I object too most, is the overreach in suppressing free speech by a company by firing the employee. This encourages the lynch mobs.
Not hypocritical at all.
Rereading my post, I would have deleted the "not hypocritical at all" because my position is not the same that Freder is criticizing. Sorry about that.
He did Not stage a public protest in front of tens of millions of people while at work. He send a letter to his boss.
"Google on Monday fired a software engineer who wrote an INTERNAL MEMO that questioned the company’s diversity efforts and argued that the low number of women in technical positions was a result of biological differences instead of discrimination."
I believe military people, who get a lot of formal, solemn, sometimes supposedly divine occasions, will sometimes say they've had their fill, but they have to do them anyway. True, they have more or less signed their lives away, but I think requiring outward conformity shows decent respect; trying to control their thoughts is tyranny.
"Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission."
That's what the engineer at google was trying to tell liberals, and he was fired for this. This is the country we live in now.
Liberals want the people to submit to their rules, so president Trump is making sure liberals are not above the law.
I applaud him.
How dare NFL fans insist players show TOLERANCE towards traditional expressions of patriotism?
Does anybody remember the old Seinfeld prairie with the AIDS ribbon?
I have a hard time imagining these same Lefties arguing that people should be allowed to express disapproval for gay pride of grand acceptance or whatever and still keep their jobs. Remember Brendon Eich?? Just donating some cash to the wrong cause is enough to get the Left to call for your job. Seems like the same logic should apply to the NFL players, no?
In other words: bake the fucking cake!
"Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission."
Yea, so what? Do you force your kids to respect things they don't naturally respect? Do you respect the cop's authority when he pulls you over even when you feel innocent? Do you show a commanding officer respect regardless of your personal feelings. That's mostly how respect works. It can be truely felt or just displayed for the sake of cohesiveness, but the value of it is still there. Of course it's better when it's also truly felt, but perfect is the enemy of good.
@Unknown,
I will point out the gross hypocrisy of many of the commenters here. A couple weeks ago when it was a Google employee complaining about affirmative action, you were outraged that he was fired. Now, you are only too willing to shitcan football players for staging a silent protest."
I suggest you guys go back & read the comments, rather than just make shit up about the commentariat. We were outraged because it seemed like a stupid thing for Google to do. Bad PR, much ado over nothing, indicative of a management that valued being SJWs over actually managing a company, etc. While the firing may have been illegal under California law, no one was hanging their hat on that peg. It just struck us as indicative of corporate management having lost their minds.
The discussion here, too, hinges as much on what the NFL, as a corporation must do to survive as a viable business & what part its employees must play in maintaining the business' image before its customer base.
Oh, & by the way, for all you "coercion" folks: what you must do as an employee is rarely "coercion" (e.g. the curtailment of mandatory religious observation on the job, like an Orthodox Jew wearing a yarmulke). If you don't like the terms of the job, quit. That multi-millionaire football players get a dispensation from this rule while cashiers who'd like to tell rude customers to go fuck themselves but can't is just a sign of a very ugly class privilege.
You're assuming that "what you're supposed to do" is clear.
The subject of the thread is about what can be called social graces and those who are offended by pampered millionaires doing the equivalent of farting in a packed elevator.
It's clear what they are supposed to do, and that's why they "bravely" take their hefty paychecks and and knee, at the same time. They feel like they can flip the bird at convention and the simple niceties we all do. I say fuck 'em.
Stand up, be a team player, don't bite the hand that feeds you, stop sticking a thumb in the eye of your fans. I hope the NFL suffers so much that players have to start living on six-figure incomes, and see how this stupid posturing pays off.
A "sports" league that pays its players bonuses if they manage to seriously injure a player on the opposing team claims the moral high ground?
And, of course, the players who compete for such bonuses.
The Google thing was the engineer attempting to get his employer to respect their own policy. The equivalent in the NFL would be writing a letter to the commissioner suggesting that they stop the players from using steroids and then getting fired for that letter.
This is such a loser for all these idiot football players that they have no idea.
1) Those who watch football are generally on the right.
2) Those who would like to see football and other brutal sports fail are on the left.
3) No more football for me. I was already sad that the chargers left San Diego. Now I will just stop watching.
"Trump is wrong on the flag and the anthem. Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission."
There is no force involved here, or did I miss the heads with pistols held to them?
The really relevant point is that the protests are simply wrong on a factual basis, but you could argue that with the SJWs till the end of time. The facts don't matter. It's the act of protest itself that is the goal of most leftist protests today. They often can't even express what they are against or for with any clarity.
"This precedent will be very useful for the left in the future."
In the future ? Ask O'Reilly about that. Rush Limbaugh survived the numerous attempts to boycott his sponsors by going to a widespread system of local sponsors that must have been a lot of work to set up but his national sponsors were all attacked by the left.
He is secure. The left is all about boycotts. Fox News is constantly attacked through sponsors.
Comanche Voter said...
Thread winner on post below on the question of "Forced respect is submission" was comment "Bake me a cake".
There *is* force in that issue (namely prison if they don't cooperate), but respect isn't involved, just cakes. Making a cake for someone doesn't mean you respect them.
Yeah, Trump has free speech rights too.
I would surmise that the bulk of NFL players are not on the brilliant end of the bell curve. Also, they have lived in a country that has more or less ridden itself of the blatant racism of the past. They missed the chance to be heroic on the Pettus bridge, missed the chance to be set upon by dogs, missed the chance to have the wind knocked out of themselves by fire hoses, missed the chance to ride the freedom rides, missed the chance to be jailed for their beliefs, missed the chance to be told they couldn't sleep in the motel, drink from the water fountain, go to the zoo on the weekend, be considered for university, get elected mayor. They missed all these chances and have been deprived of a heroism that was surely theirs. Now they are "brave" to kneel during an anthem. Their lack of brilliance gives them the sophomoric argument that this kneeling is a free speech issue. The actual footballing that goes on in a game is less than 20 minutes. The amount of work they do for their huge salaries to entertain is stunningly tiny.
"The left is all about boycotts" says someone who has been urged to boycott football teams that kneel by our Republican President and others on the right.
Both posts today are about this, but lets blame the left for it.
Wow, autocorrect.
Seinfeld episode.
Trans acceptance.
Richard Taylor at 11:16 nailed it.
I don't understand the first thing about why people think it's patriotic.
It's just group enforcement. My feeling is that everybody resents it.
My suspicion is that it's introduced in grade school as a means of control. Get the kids to shut up and pay attention, school is starting. It's a transition move.
As the kids grow up, they take over the school's enforcement role. If you're not standing, you're not patriotic.
But flag ceremony is a military thing. You want discipline and prescribed moves, not inidivuality, to make the team work as a team.
The Marine standing at attention by Trump's helicopter isn't bursting with love of country, but bursting with discipline. That's what you want there.
In civilians you don't want that at all.
Love and respect for country isn't a feeling at all.
It's like, if you don't take your kid to the dentist, we say that you don't love him. It's not a remark about feeling but about responsibility. Love isn't a feeling. That's why you can count on it. Otherwise it would be fickle. Who knows what you'd be feeling tomorrow. Constancy is in something else.
The decline of the NFL began with one of its greatest successes - The original Monday Night Football. It started with huge ratings, appeal to wider demographics and mo' money. It's also when the league (and most of its moving parts) decided that 'entertainment' trumped 'sports'.
Welcome to Super Bowl halftime shows that go on forever, literally changing a fundamental aspect of the game - the length of time to regroup between halves. Broadcast ratings may increase depending on what celebrity entertainer is grabbing his package or otherwise demonstrating his/her inner-edginess but the people watching this overproduced crap are not the same people who tuned in to watch the game. Ditto the people who want to see the commercials. Has there EVER been a Super Bowl halftime show better the Grambling Marching Band?
Welcome to Pink Month, Special Weird Uniform games, Constant uniform redesigns, stadium names that have no relationship to the team, the city it calls home or the traditions and history it honors. Don't forget the owners constantly threatening to move if taxpayers won't build new stadiums.
This year, the league 'improved' the sport (show) by allowing more elaborate end zone celebrations. Great runs and catches are now just warm-ups for dance moves or other look-at-me stuff. There was a time it was about the sport.
Now we've entered the social justice era and the league is terrified of being seen as insensitive, racist or oppressive. 'Team' is subordinate to 'individual'. 'Uniform' is subordinate to 'do your own thing'. Fans are subordinate to... oh, just fuck the fans!
The inmates truly are running the asylum.
""The left is all about boycotts" says someone who has been urged to boycott football teams that kneel by our Republican President and others on the right."
What happened first? The cause comes before the effect.
The court is arguing about forced speech. I'd rather argue about patriotism.
I mean, the forced speech could be anything. The questsion what patriotism is is something else.
"It's just group enforcement. My feeling is that everybody resents it."
This is what the engineer at google was saying. And he got fired for this...
I haven't watched sports since the Heidi Bowl. That was great, the screwup to end all screwups.
And there was one good football game before that played in a 0-degree blizzard that I enjoyed. Then they started doing them indoors where you can't hope for much more than a roof collapse.
Every time I have watched a game in a bar, no one removes their hat, stands, or even stops talking during the Anthem.
Shouldnt we be getting up off our bar stools (or couches at home) to sing along if this is so important?
Average working Americans appreciate NOT having the ill-considered opinions of millionaire entertainers being shoved down their throats. Even if the most virulent anti-American NFL player stands respectfully at attention it acknowledges the deference due to the audience, and will be repaid, just as a customer at McDonald's deserves a smile and a cheery greeting from a teenaged cashier in return for the 7 or 8 bucks he intends to spend for a cardboard hamburger and cold, tasteless fries.
In the ancient past, entertainers (a professional athlete is just that, is he not?) were often on the lowest rungs of the social ladder. They owed deference to their audience, thus the tradition of the bow. Without giving the expected acknowledgement of the obligation an entertainer could not expect to eat, let alone escape a flogging. Today, the roles are reversed. Today the paying audience have become the underlings. I can't say when it started, but it was well underway by the Sixties. Musicians stopped bowing. Maybe that was at first a matter of "socialist" principle (anyone who denies that Marx dominated the Woodstock counter-cultural infinitely more than Locke hasn't done his homework) We're into equality, so no deference need be shown. Perhaps. But it quickly devolved into sheer arrogance — I'm a fucking star. I'm more popular than Jesus Christ. You're lucky I let you breathe the same air as I do. Pay up and shut up, proles, you're about to be schooled.
The trend spread to Hollywood. I couldn't say who broke the tradition of gratitude. But the Oscars as a show of social superiority was epitomised by Marlon Brando who sent a fake Indian princess with a fake name in a fake outfit to lecture us average joes on the worthlessness of our lives and loyalties. That's 45 years ago, give or take. In the meantime, the trend has only gotten worse. The Hollywood star without a harebrained opinion he feels entitled to foist on his audience, whether it be a vehement attack on the fresh produce industry "for the children!" or contemptuous insults directed at the work-a-day taxpaying heretics of the Climate Change religion, is a pretty rare beast these days, endangered one might say.
Pro footballers aren't blazing any new ground. They've just discovered that monetary riches aren't nearly as much fun as power over others. They want to be the kind of stars who can say fuck your feelings — shut up and fork it over.
Why don't they just stop playing the National Anthem before games?
There was Colonel de Coverly in Catch 22 who was too stupid to understand the patriotism proved in signing a loyalty oath to get food in the cafeteria and put an end to it just be pissing on the idea.
Why don't they just stop playing the National Anthem before games?
It will be taken as unpatriotic again, the same mistake.
Its actual function was to get the crowd to stop milling around, shut up and pay attention. A transition move, as it is in grade school where it started.
It plays on the existence of self-appointed enforcers in the crowd for its effect.
hat makes no sense. If I attend a USA-Russia or Canada-Russia hockey game, I will stand quietly for the Russian anthem. I
That's a good point. The crowd at the Olympics shows respect to whatever flag and anthems are being raised and played. The winter Olympics are coming up in a few months. Will we see Americans sitting out the Russian anthem because we don't believe in Russia.
According to the 'minds' of the left and the NFL:
Not standing for the flag and National Anthem? Not divisive.
Calling out said players for not standing for the flag and National Anthem? Divisive.
Fuck these people.
" Are all lefties this dumb?" I know some lefties whom I consider more misguided than dumb. Emphasis is on the word "some."
That said, I will miss my first Chicago Bears game in a long time. I go back to Dick Butkus, Gayle Sayers, Johnny Morris, Bill Wade, Doug Atkins and Rosie Taylor coached by George Halas at Wrigley Field. I am not done with the Bears. I will never again watch any team play the Pittsburgh Steelers.
They can exercise their freedom of speech all they want. I will exercise my own constitutional freedoms.
It will be taken as unpatriotic again, the same mistake.
But that's where we are now.
Otherwise, how does this stop? Will it eventually just disappear, like the protests against the name "Redskins"?
Because it isn't like the police are going to be able to reform to the standards of whatever this protest wants. And the past can't be changed.
bagoh20 said...
"Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission."
Yea, so what?
+1
Amirite that 20 years ago such would have been handled within the locker room? Or the guy get canned?
Nobody is forced to do anything. You can quit football anytime you don't want to behave within normal limits.
As kinda said on the other thread: Bake me a game!
The fan isn’t looking for “respect”. The fan just doesn’t want to see an act of “disrespect”.
"This precedent will be very useful for the left in the future."
The left set the precedent. Time and again.
Now that you're being bludgeoned by your own rules, you're having a sissy fit.
Tough shit.
And this.
"But why did President Trump choose this weekend to show the players the same lack of respect a few of them are showing the country?
John McCain.
The senator from Arizona just killed the Republican effort to repeal and replace Obamacare.
President Trump changed subjects. The president taking on the NBA and the NFL became the story. Instead of talking about the failure to repeal and replace Obamacare, the media was talking about Trump taking on unpatriotic ingrates who beat up women in their spare time.
Trump is not difficult to figure out, if you use a little observation and logic. He's a normal man.
Well, for being a billionaire president."
http://donsurber.blogspot.com/2017/09/why-trump-picked-on-nfl.html?spref=tw
bagoh20 said...The really relevant point is that the protests are simply wrong on a factual basis, but you could argue that with the SJWs till the end of time. The facts don't matter. It's the act of protest itself that is the goal of most leftist protests today. They often can't even express what they are against or for with any clarity.
--
That's where the phrase "raising awareness" becomes very handy.
"bagoh20 said...
The really relevant point is that the protests are simply wrong on a factual basis, but you could argue that with the SJWs till the end of time. The facts don't matter. It's the act of protest itself that is the goal of most leftist protests today. They often can't even express what they are against or for with any clarity."
Really good point. This shouldn't get lost in the blather about whether or not calling for a boycott is an impeachable first-amendment violation.
The #BLM rhetoric is not only factually wrong and racially divisive, it has actually stirred up violent riots and gotten cops killed. And that's before we get into the second-order effects of less-effective policing in minority communities.
Chuck said...
"Trump has chosen the ... Trumpiest way of approaching a problem where I might actually agree with Trump."
Yep. And if he hadn't, we wouldn't be talking about it.
Welcome to the age of Twitter.
I'm so old, I can remember when the 30-second Sound Bite was dumbing down the political discourse.
Freder Frederson said...I will point out the gross hypocrisy of many of the commenters here. A couple weeks ago when it was a Google employee complaining about affirmative action, you were outraged that he was fired.
--
An internal discussion.
Because, ya know, us black players should stand for the Queen because British Colonialism was so gentle on the Wogs.
That's it. Pack it in. What the NFL needs now is a good mortician & Foddah O'Malley to say the Requiem Mass over its supine form.
Just put standing for the National Anthem in their pay package, like number of passes caught or sacks made in a season.
"That said, I will miss my first Chicago Bears game in a long time."
I go back to Whizzer White and "Luckman, Lujack, Lane and Blanda" days.
A family friend was a starter for the Cleveland Rams before the war. He was a big guy, about 6 -4 and 230 pounds.
Can you imagine what it takes now to play at FBS or pro level ?
He also worked the rest of his life as playing pro football was fun, not for money. He had his degree and did very well in business.
Ben Shapiro tweets
"If you kneel because you're "showing Trump," you're helping him: the flag isn't Trump, and he wants to identify with that symbol."
That's just it. The democrats = Trump does ____, we do the opposite. The left are now a pack of America hating weirdos. Good luck with that.
Blogger Laslo Spatula said...
The problem is there are some kneelers on every team, like oil in the cake.
So:
Trade kneelers to teams whose owners support kneeling.
Trade those who stand to teams whose owners reject kneeling.
The SJW Conference and the Patriot Conference.
Would make some games more exciting.
I am Laslo.
....
Brilliant.
Attendance would go through the roof. I would pay whatever the asking price was.
"This precedent will be very useful for the left in the future."
They've been doing this for years. I'm delighted with Trump's tweet. When the Right finally gets serious about boycotting you're going to see a far more centrist/apolitical corporate culture. Which will actually be better for everybody, Right and Left, Black and White.
Why don't they just stop playing the National Anthem before games?
9/24/17, 12:35 PM
And stop the tributes to the military as well. Eliminate any US flags at the stadium. And the Patriots need to change their name.
Seriously this whole thing has become a joke. When one guy was doing it, I guess it was newsworthy. Now you have random players in various sports doing it, many of whom no one outside their most devoted fan based even knows who they are, or what the message is supposed to be anymore. It's now not a message about police brutality or racial injustice, it's anti-Trump. Purely political. Easy to dismiss as just cheap posturing by a bunch of rich ungrateful losers who wanted Hillary Clinton to win the election.
"As I read this post out loud, this sentence makes Meade start singing the same Bob Dylan line that was in my head as I was writing...."
Ah, how sweet. Shared interests are very important.
"Every time I have watched a game in a bar, no one removes their hat, stands, or even stops talking during the Anthem."
You can't be this stupid. You just can't.
Is anybody at that bar jumping up onto the bar - or their tables - and making an explicit point of NOT respecting the anthem? I highly doubt it.
But your precious NFL boys are doing exactly that.
Seriously. Fuck you people.
War.
I won't have my hand on my heart and I won't sing along, but I will show a quiet non-disrespect. That's all that these over-paid thugs need to do.
This is common courtesy almost everywhere. I was reading a comment in the online DM from a retired RAF officer who spent much of his career stationed in the USA. Every morning he saluted the Stars and Stripes while the originally anti-British "Star- Spangled Banner" played over the loudspeakers. Military courtesy demands a show of respect to the traditions of a host country. Americans stationed in Great Britain stand to attention and salute the Union Jack. Americans stationed in Japan stand to attention and salute the Rising Sun. If the European war had ended on the same terms as the war in the Pacific, our soldiers would likely be saluting the swastika! Not out of submission, out of courtesy.
Consider the Olympic Games and the deference shown to national colors and anthems even by countries technically at war. Olympic medals have been rescinded and athletes disqualified for the kind of disrespect the NFL is encouraging amongst its players.
There are four groups of voters:
(1) those who disagree with Trump on everything.
(2) those who mostly disagree with Trump but agree on some things
(3) those who mostly agree with Trump but disagree on some things
(4) those who agree with Trump on everything
Trump is targeting group 2, 3, and 4, while giving the finger to group 1.
I read today that the Steelers are doing away with the anthem before the game. That's where we're heading next, I'm sure. Playing the National Anthem before every sports event is something that goes back to America's early jingoistic days. Of course it'll need to go. Problem solved.
Removing the anthem would only revert the protests to goofy mime gestures.
But those would at least be more creative and specific.
Kneeling for the anthem comes across as an FU to the country itself.
The whole thing brings to mind the '68 Olympics, and raised fists. How was that finally settled? I got tired of Obama's social interventionism, and I don't like it with Trump either. To me it just looks like SJW stuff coming from a 180° angle.
This is common courtesy almost everywhere.
I'd go for civil inattention instead. You've got the anthem guys playing their anthem and doing the favored body posture and others milling around and not minding.
When you demand common courtesy you're demanind submission.
We're doing our sacred ceremony and you have to shut up.
All I know, is that anyone making 10 million a year, can't possibly know what a chronic unemployed person feels, and their opting-out of the National Anthem is not going to help them much.
It's like sending cake to starving and imprisoned debtors.
Blogger gspencer said...
"Forced respect isn't respect, it's submission"
Think about that and Islam.
They know. Islam means submission to god. Literally.
And the Patriots need to change their name.
Lot's of sports teams need a name change.
The San Francisco Selfish Bastards (with Kaepernick at QB)
The Chicago Thugs
The Los Angeles Semi-Literate Goons
The Milwaukee Millionaire Morons
The Washington Wife-Bashers
the list goes on...
(reposted with typo fixed)
It's just being polite to show respect. Good manners don't have to reflect deep feelings, they just avoid conflict. If you want conflict, bad manners are good way to get there. And now we have a fight. Shrug. Not all fights can be avoided without paying a price.
I love how the MSM and the left always get to frame the debate, so their side/values win out.
When someone says/does something the Left dislikes, its framed as "How, you can be such a thoughtless dickhead, don't you know that [insert protected group] are offended by your words/actions? You're a [insert insult label]. Then in the MSM we get quotes from the offended group saying how the infamous words/actions were "daggers to their heart" "made them scared" etc.
But when its something the Center/right dislikes, then its framed as "Why are you oppressing this person and FORCING Them to be quiet or do something they don't want?" Suddenly,its no longer about not offending others, its about "Free Speech" and the "Right of the individual".
So, if offended by X and you're a "protected group" we should force people to not say X. But if you're offended by Y and not part of "protected group", then go pound sand.
The NFL is perfectly willing (and has) censored the players and demanded they do/not do certain things on and off the playing field.
But they aren't willing to discipline their players for being unpatriotic. In fact, the NFL attacked the POTUS when he suggested they should be disciplined.
The NFL is going Global and most of the Owners are typical Globalist Billionaires. They see American patriotism as old fashioned and don't like it. My response: Fuck the NFL.
Employees often submit to "forced respect".
Now..if ticket holders were ejected for not standing or paying proper ttention, that's a different equation.
They could choose to sew messaging patches on their uniforms, stickers on their helmets a la NASCAR.
Oh wait..no they can't. Submission.
@Kennedy: "There can be no doubt that for many, if not most, of the students at the graduation, the act of standing or remaining silent was an expression of participation in the Rabbi's prayer. That was the very point of the religious exercise. It is of little comfort to a dissenter, then, to be told that for her the act of standing or remaining in silence signifies mere respect, rather than participation. What matters is that, given our social conventions, a reasonable dissenter in this milieu could believe that the group exercise signified her own participation or approval of it."
There can be a lot of doubt. That was not the only point of the exercise. No sensible dissenter needs the comfort of being told remaining silent can signify mere respect, since that is obvious to anyone. Given our social conventions, a reasonable dissenter could reasonably believe, like most courteous dissenters with any respect for communal mores rather than religion as such, that the groups exercise signified anything more than common courtesy and respect for the the actual participants.
To think that Tony's drivel has the force of law. This is America.
rhhardin wrote: When you demand common courtesy you're demanind submission.
I bet you're a lot of fun at family Thanksgiving feasts as you hurl the turkey across the room because your mother-in-law spurned your demand for oyster stuffing.
Your description of common courtesy as a demand for submission is not only jejune (Submission to what? The demands of the State or a set of simple rules that engender our survival?) it's borderline insane — it smacks of textbook paranoid narcissism.
I never thought I'd want rhhardin's brain for my collection. Best get a jar ready.
The NFL is planning to play games in London. If some players, decided to Kneel when they played "God save the Queen" or showed any sign of disrespect while they played the UK national anthem, the media and the NFL would come down on them like a ton of bricks.
But if its the USA national anthem? Meh.
Now..if ticket holders were ejected for not standing or paying proper attention, that's a different equation.
Or dressing like Tom Selleck.
Instead of carefully taking apart the substantive arguments of Colin Kaepernick (which can and should be done),
Yeah, not sure there are clear arguments anymore, if there ever were. Little kids doing it because the big guys do it. Trump haters doing it because they hate Trump, many of them because they believe he is a Nazi, etc., Kapernik fans doing it because they like him,Blacks doing it cause K is black. Some doing it because of peer pressure.
Michael K.,
I did not know that South Siders were allowed at Wrigley Field. I used to take the "B" train from Howard Street to Addison for the games.
In your opinion, who was the best middle linebacker: Bill George, Dick Butkus, Mike Singletary or Brian Urlacher?
The team owners have a business decision to make:
1-piss off the majority of their customers and take the financial hit by doing so
2-fire the players and Goodell.
It's not a difficult decision to make.
The players can express their views to their thug hearts content on their time but not on company time.
Trump is either brilliant or amazingly lucky. By doing what he has done with the NFL he is cementing the voters who voted for him to him and if the boycott against the NFL succeeds it will result in a huge financial hit to the networks who are no friends of Trumps.
"I never thought I'd want rhhardin's brain for my collection. Best get a jar ready."
RH seems to be a contrarian. Some people get a kick out of being different, just for the sake of being different. If everyone says "B" - they say "not B". If everyone says "Not B" - they say "B".
Why don't these protesters take some of their gizzilion dollars and do something about it?
It's quite simple folks: You never have the right to use your professional position, while on the job, to advocate for a political position or perspective outside of that which your boss explicitly endorses and supports.
If you choose to do so anyway then you ought to be immediately fired for cause.
When I ran MCSNet anyone who did such a thing would have been instantly fired. This would have been true even if I supported the political position in question personally because to choose to do so without the explicit endorsement and participation of the corporation is to abuse your position at the firm for your personal political advocacy.
That is simply not your decision as an employee to make. Such an action constitutes gross insubordination and that's a fireable offense anywhere I've ever worked from the most-lowly job to the most-prestigious.
End of discussion, full-stop, done.
Among other things such an action may lead customers and potential customers to choose to shun the company and its products. That is a trade-off you, as a "star employee", do not have the right to evaluate or commit the firm to; it is a decision that management has the sole right to make.
Trump is exactly correct and the NFL commissioner is flat-out wrong. Since the NFL Commissioner thinks that players have the right to choose what a franchise owner must support in terms of political positions as independent acts, obligating the franchise owner to the economic consequences of same, it is my position that we should all give them plenty of economic consequences.
IN SHORT, BOYCOTT THE NFL AND EVERYTHING THAT TRADES ON SAME FOR PROMOTION, ADVERTISING AND RELATED ENDORSEMENTS.
It's reported that the entire Steelers team stayed off the field for the anthem today.
Interesting
Big question now, will there be riots at bars and pizza parlors showing the game? Trump haters showing up to protest Trump boycott, drunk, rowdy, diehard pizza/bar regulars/fans pissed at newcomers crowding the joint...
Common courtesy demands that you stop talking now.
Common courtesy demands that you stand up and stand still now.
My experience with common courtesy is that it's not demanded. If it's demanded, take a closer look at it. It's something else going under the same name.
Blogger Rae said...
"The ultimate question being decided here is whether we have anything in common, as a nation, right now. It seems more and more that the answer is no."
Bingo.
The left are enemies of everything else this country stands for. Every single issue they side against freedom and for the state.
It's common courtesy for all the players to kneel when one player kneels.
What a powerful word, common courtesy.
Anyway, back to forced respect. Its submissive effect depends on the nature of the "force" and on what the meaning of "respect" is. In most rituals, like the anthem & flag thingy, the force is the force of public opinion and the respect is shown to the acting group itself--not necessarily any grander principles for which symbols are supposed to stand. Public opinion "forcing" group members to show common courtesy to the rituals of the group itself enforces a kind of respect but is the most minimal submission. It is the "submission" that makes any group life possible.
In the NFL case, Trump tweets notwithstanding, no one is forcing anyone to show respect. Even if a rule is in actual NFL contracts (which I doubt), conscientious objectors can work somewhere else. Players should be, and are thus far, free to show disrespect. Fans should be, and are, free to dis the disrespect. Trump is not forcing anyone to do anything, though he is encouraging disrespect for disrespect. By getting NFL execs to complain about division, the only thing he is forcing is the contradictions.
The right player move durng the anthem is toss the football around and loosen up.
"When you demand common courtesy you're demanind submission."
Civilized society is based on "Submission" to common group standards and beliefs.
There's never been a group of people from 2017 USA to a bunch of cavemen that didn't have group norms and enforce "submission".
The right fan move during the anthem is buy beer and chat up your date.
Telling players they can't open up their fly and take a whiz on the field is "enforcing submission".
There's never been a group of people from 2017 USA to a bunch of cavemen that didn't have group norms and enforce "submission".
There's no anthem reaction in bars or at home. Apparently it's a strong stadium-only norm.
Why is that?
It's as if it's a trick to get the crowd to shup up and pay attention. Something that management thought up in the 1800s.
Matt wrote: "It might help too if he (Trump) tries to understand WHY some players are kneeling."
It might help if the players understood why they are kneeling. What solutions are they proposing to perceived injustices?
What solutions are you proposing?
My experience with common courtesy is that it's not demanded.
So rhhardin admits to being insufficiently experienced. Good to know for future reference.
My father liked, during tne anthem during a baseball game, one of the announcers asked on a hot mike, "Who goosed the soprano?"
I regard a football player who kneels during the national anthem as disrespecting me, as an American. I don't need to tune into a channel showing a game where the players disrespect me.
And I don't.
"The anthem is for all Americans and kneeling simply points out that not all Americans are getting a fair shake. "
Especially millionaires who do not have college degrees.
Erving Goffman has books and books of norms that you didn't realize existed but that you live by.
One of them was not anthem playing and standing.
That's so coerced that everybody notices it.
"Who the heck is requiring this?" is on everybody's mind. "Why do we have to pretend this to watch a ballgame?"
The unspoken norm is you stand or you get your kneecaps broken by a self-appointed patriot.
Francisco D
Many players give back to their community via charity or time. Many attempt to make a positive contribution. By kneeling they send a message about inequality and racism. The communites and kids who get their support are listening. They are the future and the one's who will make a change. The fact that it can start with a football player expressing his freedom is pretty cool.
Nose-picking, for example.
It's okay to pick your nose if you're alone, but you're expected to stop if somebody comes into the office.
I am free to sneer and snub everybody I want to. ..except there are the perpetually offended favored folks who can have me fired, blacklisted and shunned at will that demand my outward submission.
But no matter what, we have to respect the gods of football, or it will never rain again or something.
"In your opinion, who was the best middle linebacker: Bill George, Dick Butkus, Mike Singletary or Brian Urlacher?"
Hard to choose. They all played in very different eras. We were Cub fans, too.
Butkus might have been the best but, as players got bigger, those guys would not do today.
Blogger Matt said..kneeling simply points out that..
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Maybe, maybe not. Might be interpreted in a variety of ways.
That's the problem with gestures instead of words.
The NFL used to try hard to appeal to the largest fan base they could by keeping the "product" generic and controversy free - fines for complaining about refs, fines for excessive TD celebrations, fines for obscene gestures, suspensions for bad/controversial behavior on and off the field, tight controls on what the players wear on the field, etc. Now the NFL and the players are trying to have their cake and eat it too - by using the NFL as a political platform to push leftist, progressive ideology at the fans and expect everyone to support it or at least accept it. They won't and they aren't. Big surprise. The players and owners live in the same celebrity bubble that Hollywood stars do - and they all think that everybody loves them and agrees with their opinions. Bad assumption.
I've been an NFL fan and fantasy football participant for decades. As of this year I am done and don't plan to watch another NFL game ever or ever play fantasy football again (I was in an ESPN league for many years and I don't plan on ever watching ESPN ever again either). The NFL product has become rotten - it has deteriorated over many years (thug/gangster lifestyle/attitudes of players, criminals allowed to play with no consequences, poor sloppy play, costs to attend a game, ES(JW)PN, etc.) but it is now to the point I don't want to buy the NFL product any more. I reached my tolerance threshold.
If the owners, the NFL, the players/coaches and the MSM (ESPN, ABC, etc.) want to cut the NFL fan base by 50, 60, 70% or more that's all their doing. It's their choice to kill their gold laying goose. Their leftest/PC/Kaepernick-loving agenda they are pushing is part of why we got Trump. Trump isn't causing people to stop watching ESPN or attend/watch NFL games. Trump just stated an opinion that many, many people agree with - and when he states an opinion that a majority of people agree with his popularity rises. That's smart politicking at the NFL's (and MSM's) expense.
The kneeling protest is idiotic, but it's trading on the idiotic standing=patriotism convention. Both sides are wrong. The convention shouldn't be there, and the constitution shows a way forward even if you don't like the history. The protesters don't have any way forward other than being pissed off in general as a way to avoid any responsibility for their condition.
The anthem is a waltz, by the way. Nobody marches to it for a reason.
"There's no anthem reaction in bars or at home. Apparently it's a strong stadium-only norm."
That's because we're watching it on TV. When Trump gave his inaugural address, I got up and took a whiz. If Chief Justice Roberts had done that, it would've been unusual to say the least.
Matt,
Try coming up with solutions so you can understand the problems.
Sending a message is virtue signaling at its worst.
Both sides are wrong.
One side is much less wrong than the other.
That's because we're watching it on TV.
I thought you loved your country. Apparently not in private.
What solutions are you proposing?
Here's one: If Black lives matter then they should matter more where more Black lives are snuffed out by violence. This isn't in Ferguson, Missouri — not by a long shot. Nor are Black lives being destroyed by "racist cops." Not by a long shot. A mere glance at crime statistics, out-of-wedlock births, and academic statistics demonstrate clearly the provenance of the deaths and suffering the BLM movement claims to deplore. If the left used half the time and energy against gangster culture as they do against bourgeois morality, the problem would resolve itself.
Blogger rcocean said...
When Trump gave his inaugural address, I got up and took a whiz. If Chief Justice Roberts had done that, it would've been unusual to say the least.
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Haaaa!!!
Both sides are wrong.
One side is much less wrong than the other.
They're different problems.
One is the black problem. They're screwing themselves by projecting their anger at their mother for driving out their father onto white racism. You get nowhere if you're pissed off at the people who want to give you a job.
The other is the fake patriotism cheap grace problem. It's all over.
A couple weeks ago when it was a Google employee complaining about affirmative action, you were outraged that he was fired.
I was bothered that the articles and comments complaining about what he wrote did not match up with what he actually wrote. I think many of them misrepresented what he said and then Google went along with that misrepresentation.
Is the intent/purpose of the NFL protesting players being misrepresented?
"The convention shouldn't be there, and the constitution shows a way forward even if you don't like the history."
The Constitution has nothing to do with it. The players are employees of the NFL and are required to behave by their employer in a certain manner. The NFL is OK with their employees pissing on the USA. Other people don't like it, and have said so. Solution? Complain. Or stop watching the NFL or giving them $$$.
If you go to Starbucks and the place has a big "Fuck America & Trump" sign, then the obvious "Solution" is to not patronize Starbucks. The Constitution has nothing to do with it.
NFL supports the protest but at the same time supposedly is blackballing CK. Both cant be truth at the same time
The fake patriotism thing is there to enhance somebody's power.
Going to a political rally can be viewed as pointless also. Some demogogue making political rhetoric and people cheering but getting nothing done. A silent protest OF ANY KIND is a beginning. Symbols and gestures do have an effect. Obviously so in this case because so many people are talking about it today.
Michael K.,
Butkus was a monster for his generation: 6'3 and 250. He played both ways at U of Illinois, so he never seemed tired. Teams that beat the Bears during their inglorious days, used to lose the next week because Butkus and company beat the crap out of them. He was also great against the pass.
That said, Brian Urlacher was a little bigger than Butkus, probably the best MLB against the pass and he closed on runners with such speed that he rarely missed tackles. The main difference is that he didn't strike fear into opponents the way Butkus did.
The constitution is what makes us Americans. There are rules, and we more or less watch out for each other's rights.
That's the way forward.
Even it its history is screwed up in various corrupt ways, it still makes that promise and so has a future.
The black protesters don't see that. They go for being pissed off as a political osition instead. There's no future in that.
Yes Matt, "raising awareness".
Working wonders for the actual issue.
The fake patriotism thing is there to enhance somebody's power.
All fake Left outrage is there to enhance their power.
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