1. Trump did not say You must respect. He didn't even say You must stop disrespecting. He only made an observation about cause and effect: If fans stop attending games because the showing of disrespect is part of the spectator experience, it will create market pressure on management and players to improve their product to win back their customers.
2. There is a difference between outward display and what is in a person's heart, but you can refrain from displaying disrespect toward people and things you don't respect because you, in fact, do have a sincere appreciation for peace and civility or because it's in your social or economic interest. That's something most of us do every day, when we refrain from vocalizing random unkind thoughts or smile and speak pleasantly to people who are bothering us for one reason or another.
3. Let's assume that management gets the message that the product — a football game — is unacceptable to the customers — the spectators — without the traditional opening ceremony — all players standing as a group and not drawing attention to their own individual opinions. How can management insure that every single player goes along? Trump's idea is: Just make it clear that it's a firing offense. Presumably, then, every man would stand there as required.
4. Now, the problem raised by rhhardin is that we would know they were all just standing there like that because of the firing threat. When the camera shows the faces of the players, there'd be static in the old-time fan-fantasy that these guys really love our country. We might think: Oh, he's just doing what they forced him to do.* That's not real love. He might be seething inside, hating the country even more, because he knows he's doing it for the money. ("[T]he average salary of an NFL player is only $1.9 million per year.")
5. The serious question — as I hear rhhardin's pithy comment — is what is the satisfaction for the fans? How will they experience the new product? It may look like respect, but we know what some of them are really thinking, and they're only acting respectful because their livelihood was put on the line. Let's do a poll:
_______________________
* As I read this post out loud, this sentence makes Meade start singing the same Bob Dylan line that was in my head as I was writing: "Sooner or later, one of us must know/That you were just doin' what you’re supposed to do..."
ADDED: Poll results:
Posts
337 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 337 of 337"the idiotic standing=patriotism convention"
Any convention is idiotic from some standpoint. Demanding that only non-idiotic conventions be followed might work in a Habermasian ideal-speech situation, though even there it might slow things down a tad, but nowhere else. To call any respect "forced" by the essential requirements of groups life "submission" is to retreat into the narcissism of pure reason.
Which is not to imply that any particular conventions are beyond any particular criticism. Had it been up to me, I would not have demeaned the flag and anthem by associating them with mere sports. I am happy to debate which rituals are more or less idiotic and by what standards. But given the actual state of play in the NFL, I doubt the kneelers want any debate that goes beyond slapping me in the face. Given the state of play in the culture war, I assume the left wants to seize power and to destroy what it cannot control. Since there's no rational debate to be had, I will join my fellow righties in giving as good as we get, while we still can.
rhardin sees this comment: "That's because we're watching it on TV."
And writes this:
"I thought you loved your country. Apparently not in private."
That's not bad.
It may look like respect, but we know what some of them are really thinking, and they're only acting respectful because their livelihood was put on the line.
I don’t care what these pampered millionaire gladiators “are really thinking.” They can hate the flag, the anthem and America all they want outside the stadium. They can hire PR directors, schedule press conferences and bloviate about race issues all they want without objection from me. But not at any event you expect me to attend, view or otherwise support. If they haven’t already, I’ll bet the failing NFL, its owners and Goodell are going to regret that they allowed this to happen.
Even owners who are Trump allies understand he is being divisive.
And disrespecting the flag and the anthem is not “being divisive?” The owners have maneuvered themselves into a lose/lose situation.
BTW, one issue doesn’t necessarily cancel out another. Just because the kneeling controversy is foremost at the moment does not mean the concussion issue disappears forever from the public consciousness; the two issues could even augment one another.
Playing the National Anthem before every sports … Of course it'll need to go. Problem solved.
Another “problem solved” … what I’ll be doing on Mondays, Thursdays and Sundays. No anthem – no football for me.
Blogger harrogate said...
It's reported that the entire Steelers team stayed off the field for the anthem today.
...
Good, bring on rapid escalation. A terrible thing to wish for, given we've left Trump out there to fight alone. He's going to look heroic win or loose.
Walter
Everything has a beginning. As noted, politicians talk all the time about issues but do very little. Why hold NFL players to the same standard as politicians? Would doing nothing somehow be better, or more acceptable? I personally do not care if players are far right, far left, religious, atheistic or just a jock. Doesn't matter. But change can and does happen when you raise awareness regardless if the issue is right or left.
The anthem is a waltz, by the way. Nobody marches to it for a reason.
Nope. The British anthem is a waltz in 3/4 time, though most danceable waltzes are 6/8. The Star-Spangled Banner is an heroic poem in the same meter as the Illiad, which was in its original form sung, btw, not merely recited.
Gee I just worked Tina in Liechtenstein and my antenna isn't even pointed that way.
It appears to be a young lady hb0/dl5yl (German call operating in Liechstenstein) yl usually indicating "young lady."
One in 3000 contacts. Not a high female/male ratio.
Blogger harrogate said...
It's reported that the entire Steelers team stayed off the field for the anthem today.
One player, a former Army Captain and Ranger came out and stood for it.
Sometimes you're left "out there to fight alone" because you're wrong, sometimes because you're an asshole. It doesn't always make you look heroic, in any case, even if you "loose" out there fighting on your own.
Not everything in 3/4 time is a waltz.
" Trump has no authority over the NFL and he has no authority over fans who want to watch."
Where did he ever suggest that he did have any such authority? Reading what you wrote it occurs to me that the Left thinks Trump is Hitler because they themselves are predisposed to goose-step.
Next time you see someone flash gang signs, give them the finger. Doing nothing is submission. Send your medical bills to rhhardin.
Blogger Comanche Voter said...
Thread winner on post below on the question of "Forced respect is submission" was comment "Bake me a cake" .
Yep. That though finally hit me this morning. So sad to see I'm not the first.
Even owners who are Trump allies understand he is being divisive.
The ultimate argument of the left — if you don't agree with me, you're being divisive.
Now who, exactly, is being asked to submit?
Michael K,
"One player, a former Army Captain and Ranger came out and stood for it."
I just read that. Well done, CPT Alejandro Villanueva!
"By kneeling they send a message about inequality and racism. The communites and kids who get their support are listening. They are the future and the one's who will make a change. The fact that it can start with a football player expressing his freedom is pretty cool."
The communities were also reading the views of a google engineer who stood up against fascism,discrimination and sexism. Liberals said it was not cool for him to stand up for what is right andgoolge fired him.
Did you stand up for the google engineer?
Matt said...Everything has a beginning.
--
..and an end. This looks to accomplish nothing more than piss people off and hasten the end of the game that gives them their "privilege" to "raise awareness".
But you know, if you really don't care what spectrum these sorts of "raising awareness" gestures emanate from, let's get them rockin' across the spectrum. Let's see, what gesture might symbolize LGBT equality? What might a white player pissed off about players kneeling do?
A complete mime circus on the field.
Not a single dollar to the NFL in any form. Not a single minute spent watching anything they're involved with.
I think Trump made a political mistake here wading into the NFL's troubled waters.
I love football, but steering in Leftwing politics is a mistake. Football is uniquely American, but there are a lot of options out there. If these spoiled millionaires start insulting their fan base, it is axiomatic they will lose fans. Pay checks will invariably shrink too. The white patriotic types will probably remain silent because they are outnumbered.
Only the Left could politicize our National Anthem. But that's what these idiots do.
Trump said what 70% of the people in this country were thinking. Representative government at work.
It is nice to have a president people can disrespect and it isn't RACIST!!!!
Matt wrote: "Symbols and gestures do have an effect. Obviously so in this case because so many people are talking about it today."
And what is the value of just talking? I like to understand problems and attempt solutions. Talking is for liberals who love to hear what they have to say, but can't organize a one-car funeral.
I am starting to understand the idiocy of the enduring legacy of Obama and Hillary among liberals. Thanks Matt. You must be an academic or at least brainwashed by them.
interview that the NFL should make a new set of rules restricting the free speech rights of football players while they’re on the field.
I'm pretty sure they do have some free speech restrictions when they are on the field. There are certainly some celebrations they can't do.
I remember a few years ago some players wanted to make it against the rules to say the n word on the field.
Althouse wrote: Let the brain damage continue. We've got a culture war to fight.
What about my collection!
I think Trump made a political mistake here wading into the NFL's troubled waters.
I disagree. It is amusing to see the left, which hates football as aggression and injury ridden, defending football against Trump.
His instinct for the public is amazing. I'm rereading Buchanan's book about Nixon, the new one, and if only Nixon had had Trump's sense of where the public was. His "Silent Majority " speech was as close as he came and the left in academia is now teaching kids that the Silent Majority was white people who refused to accept the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
There are certainly some celebrations they can't do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchdown_celebration
Butkus was great with the rules in played with. The Pass game was much less important then. You could manhandle the Tight ends and WR's within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage and bump them if the ball wasn't in the air. Today, if you touch them its pass interference.
I wonder if Butkus would have the speed to play in today's game.
"When a president says that it is not a just an opinion."
It's not? The POTUS directly controls the NFL?
It's as if it's a trick to get the crowd to shup up and pay attention. Something that management thought up in the 1800s.
How ingenious! What a good idea, if true.
The unspoken norm is you stand or you get your kneecaps broken by a self-appointed patriot.
9/24/17, 1:46 PM
Is that what happened to you? Is that why you're a shut-in whose life consists of Morse, DVDs and dedication to the removal of all affect?
The fake patriotism thing is there to enhance somebody's power.
Whose, rh, whose?
The constitution is what makes us Americans.
The Constitution is a piece of paper. (Parchment, vellum, whatever.) Just like the flag is a piece of bunting and the anthem is a piece of beer hall music to you.
One is the black problem. They're screwing themselves by projecting their anger at their mother for driving out their father onto white racism. You get nowhere if you're pissed off at the people who want to give you a job.
The other is the fake patriotism cheap grace problem. It's all over.
Do you have any IRL friends whatsoever?
Blogger Matt said...When a president says that it is not a just an opinion.
--
What is it? An executive order? Quote the tweet without paraphrasing. Presidents express opinions routinely.
"When a president says that it is not a just an opinion."
Come get me when Trump tells the NFL that he's the only thing standing between them & the pitchforks.
Short memories out there.
"His instinct for the public is amazing. I'm rereading Buchanan's book about Nixon, the new one, and if only Nixon had had Trump's sense of where the public was. His "Silent Majority " speech was as close as he came and the left in academia is now teaching kids that the Silent Majority was white people who refused to accept the 1964 Civil Rights Act."
I hope Trump is smart enough to know that playing a legal strategy & obeying the rules isn't enough when the Left wants to destroy you. Nixon thought the SCOTUS would save him or he'd be able to play some legal game and win. I also hope that Trump is smart enough to keep loyal people around him, unlike Nixon who had John Dean as his legal counsel.
I'm warming to the mime circus approach. Might reduce CTE.
From Hot Air
"Think it through. If they kneel in solidarity with Kaepernick and in opposition to Trump, Trump wins. But if they ignore his baiting and refuse to kneel … he also wins, because they’ll have left Kaepernick marginalized and allowed Trump to dictate the terms of what is and isn’t an acceptable form of protest. Anyone who’d let a politician use reverse psychology to maneuver them into when and how to demonstrate is signaling that they care less about their cause than about spiting that politician.
To the extent the protests grate on fans on the right, I think it’s less the kneeling itself that does it than the commentary-class pressure to admire the protests that does."
Trump's ,racist taunts were not just addressed to that sob black man who took a knee last year, but also against Curry who did stand durning the national anthem, but exercised his right,as did Tom Brady, not to attend a White House meeting. This spill over against any black athlete who does not bow down to the king is most telling and why there will be mass protest against the tweeter. This must be separated from the head injury issue,although Trump would like to see the sob sissies hit even harder.
Matt wrote: "It seems you are expecting them to be Ghandi, Churchill and MLK and / or get results immediately or do nothing except play football."
Actually, I have far lower expectations for professional football players. It would be nice if they had read a book or two in their lives. It would be nice if they had reading comprehension beyond the 8th grade. It would be nice if they (and other liberals) had some idea of what issues they are protesting. (hint: It's not Trump). It would also be nice if they had the ability and courage to think independently.
Is that too much to ask?
"If they kneeled or stood for right wing causes would you be as dismissive?"
You mean Tim Tebow who kneeled to thank God for his success? That "right wing cause?"
The left went after him with the full arsenal you guys approve.
Until the IRS gets involved, everything is pure symbolism.
Waste of time. In two weeks, the next pet rock will be born.
" It would be nice if they had read a book or two in their lives."
A well known running back at Cal had graduated and was with the SanDiego Chargers before they figured out he was illiterate.
He always wore glasses but I don't why. I guess it made him look like he could read.
Trump's racist taunts …
Readers, have you notice as I have that Trump’s alleged “racist taunts” are NEVER quoted? In poker it’s called a “tell.”
Isn't submission what modern sadomasochistic "liberalism" is all about? Either submitting dutifully to Big Brother (as "liberals" are always admonishing those "damned rebel" Tea Partiers to do); or even more fun, forcing others into submission.
The kneeling protest is idiotic, but it's trading on the idiotic standing=patriotism convention. Both sides are wrong. The convention shouldn't be there, and the constitution shows a way forward even if you don't like the history.
The flag is a symbol that points to the constitution.
I think you're projecting your own sperginess onto the people who like to "show respect to the flag". You assume they're taking it all literally, like you. "It's just a piece of cloth". But all of culture is just "a piece of cloth" that is prior to, and supports, the abstractions that you (erroneously) believe stay magically suspended in air with no supports.
The constitution is what makes us Americans. There are rules, and we more or less watch out for each other's rights.
No, the constitution is not what "makes us Americans". Unless by "American" you mean "citizen of a culturally incoherent country where people interpret laws gnostically (aka making up shit as they go along), and that is getting more fractured and more incoherent by the day. In a very real sense, we have to agree upon what the rules are (the thousand tacit cultural assumptions) before we can agree upon what the rules are (formal law).
The constitution is the abstracted, codified set of rules that arose out of, and is embedded in, a particular concrete culture, a particular world view developed over centuries. You can't respect the constitution, or even understand it, once the cultural underpinnings are gone. And as a culturally unmoored set of abstractions, it can mean anything or nothing - as ought to be obvious to anyone observing contemporary jurisprudence.
Find that tweet, Matt?
You're right that Trump shares his opinions more frequently..via twitter and in this case on mic. But in that context, the manner in which he does so as well as th e topic itself informs as to what is opinion vs some kind of order from him.
The left seemed to have no problem with Obama saying the police "acted stupidly".
But yeah, despite his stated opinions..there were periods where Obama kinda went underground...surfacing only via long lens on a golf course.
Let's get back to fostering the mime circus...must-see tv IMHO.
"He always wore glasses but I don't why. I guess it made him look like he could read."
Maybe he was myopic.
@ Michael K,
The Buchanan books on Nixon are excellent and relevant here.
The Left hated Nixon, but at least there were legitimate fights. The Vietnam War was a biggie.
Here in 2017, the Left is as ferocious in their opposition as they were in the Nixon years - but they focus on trivial matters: Robert E Lee statues, Trump Tweets, National Anthem in football. Totally pointless outrage.
Trump upset the establishment - and good for him. But if he makes too many unforced errors and too many unecessary fights, he risks a similar fate as Nixon.
What were Trump's ",racist taunts", r/v? You can replace the bad words with "{blank}" if it makes it less traumatic for you to repeat them.
Is racism really that prevalent in America today? I'm Caucasian so I may not know what I'm talking about I guess. And what exactly is being protested? I mean, I want to be a nice guy, but how far do you go along with idiocy just to be civil? It's not a one way street.
JPS:
I just read that. Well done, CPT Alejandro Villanueva!
I am a rabid avoider of all things sportsball, but I'll second that, and break my avoidance rule to go find a clip.
Whatever Trump is, he's great at winning the support of at least 50% of the USA. Somehow its ended up with Trump, Patriotism, respecting Vets, and standing for the National Anthem on one side, and unpatriotic, spoiled Millionaire NFL players and owners on the other side
To make it even better for Trump , Schumer and Pelosi might "take a knee" and come out against the National Anthem.
LOL.
Dick Butkus was the best, as compared to his peers.
To make even more incredible, the NFL players in London, "Took the knee" during the Star Spangled banner but stood for "God save the Queen".
All We need now, is for the NFL to play a tape of Rev. Wright saying "Goddamn America" before every NFL game.
But, sooner or later, one of us must know
You just did what you’re supposed to do.
In other words, duty — morally obliged action.
We celebrate freedom of speech a lot in this country. It's the fashionable thing to do when the speech in questions levels gratuitous insults at the heteronormative bourgeoise, by the same token there is no freedom when the speech upsets a "progressive". However, there's more to living successfully in a society, however small, than free speech — duty for one, a word very seldom used by anyone not wearing a uniform, which in itself ought to be an ominous portent. Duty may have the reinforcement of legal sanction, but generally not.
I slept, and dreamed that life was Beauty;
I woke, and found that life was Duty.
Was thy dream then a shadowy lie?
Toil on, sad heart, courageously,
And thou shalt find thy dream to be
A noonday light and truth to thee.
Good manners derive from duty, but they aren't just a matter of morals. Duty is owed whether it serves self-interest or not. However, good manners, particularly in matters of commerce, are in the self-interest of the mannerly, quite apart from any moral obligation involved. When I bill my clients I always thank them. Why? They owe me the money. I thank them because it is in my enlightened self-interest to do so.
The fact that Kaepernick and the other kneelers cannot recognize their own self-interest reveals just how poorly educated many pro athletes truly are.
clint said...
...
Chuck said...
"Trump has chosen the ... Trumpiest way of approaching a problem where I might actually agree with Trump."
Yep. And if he hadn't, we wouldn't be talking about it.
Welcome to the age of Twitter.
We're talking about it, under circumstances in which much of the world is uniting in opposition to anything that Trump stands for. In this instance, Trump has even gotten former supporters like Bob Kraft to turn against him.
If Trump had not gone all Trumpy and yelled about firing the s.o.b.'s, and had instead gotten one of his better speechwriters to work on a message, we might now actually be advancing the ball against the Kaepernick silliness.
Rich Lowry was on Meet the Press today, pointing out that the "Stand" v. "Kneel" issue is a winner for "Stand," all day long. Only when Trump starts to get petty, and personal, and veering away from careful argument and into trashtalk land, does he begin to lose that issue.
Rush Limbaugh has made the case that football fans don't want politics; they want entertainment. Now, Trump has just fused politics into football for as far as the eye can see.
The flag is a symbol that points to the constitution...
More than pithy — profound. Well done, Angel-Dyne.
Blogger Paco Wové said..."What were Trump's ",racist taunts", r/v? You can replace the bad words with "{blank}" if it makes it less traumatic for you to repeat them."
You didn't hear those dog whistles whistling?
The Cal running back who wore glasses was Chuck Muncie. He had a successful NFL career. He wasn't illiterate but he did have drug problems and did time in prison as a result. Finally turned his life around and did a lot charitable work.
Sorry Chuckie,
You are either in the beginning stages of dementia or you have become delusional in your hatred for Trump.
In either case, you have as much relevance as a supposedly Republican election judge in Detroit who saw nothing illegal.
"Nothing. I saw nothing,"said Sgt. Schultz.
LOL!
"But if he makes too many unforced errors and too many unecessary fights, he risks a similar fate as Nixon."
Oh, I agree but he seems to have a better sense than Nixon had about what people want. Nixon had no interest in domestic affairs. Buchanan says he kept OEO and gave it to Rumsfeld but Rumsfeld, in his own book, says he told Nixon "I voted against OEO" and Nixon said, "That's why I'm giving it to you." He added that if Rumsfeld found any projects that were worth funding, he should go ahead but Nixon was OK with it if he found none.
Nixon was also more paranoid than Trump and had been poor. I don't think Trump is paranoid. He is very open and that is what has so many flummoxed about him.
We're talking about it, under circumstances in which much of the world is uniting in opposition to anything that Trump stands for. In this instance, Trump has even gotten former supporters like Bob Kraft to turn against him.
I think "the world" is made up mostly of those who want something. Coolidge advised what to do about them.
Kraft may or may not be turning "against him." Kraft has a lot of money invested. We probably won't know what is going to result from all this until the end of the season. Some disruptive players might get traded.
"He wasn't illiterate but he did have drug problems "
People with the Chargers said he was illiterate.
Not asking for actual respect. Asking for appropriate conduct for the occasion, which is standing. Kneeling or sitting on purpose as part of a political protest is highly inappropriate and offensive. It takes a moment of unity and hijacks it for politics. It is very divisive
roesch/voltaire said...
Trump's ,racist taunts were not just addressed to that sob black man who took a knee last year, but also against Curry who did stand durning the national anthem, but exercised his right,as did Tom Brady, not to attend a White House meeting. This spill over against any black athlete who does not bow down to the king is most telling and why there will be mass protest against the tweeter. This must be separated from the head injury issue,although Trump would like to see the sob sissies hit even harder.
9/24/17, 2:45 PM
So, carrying a lot of that white guilt, eh? Have to go along with your peers, or else. Don't blame you, as you are an example of white privilege. Ancestors go back to 1700's, slave holders, upper middle class all your life. New shoes and clothes that fit at beginning of school year. New bike, mommy and daddy paid for tuition and new car. Substantial allowance.
You, and old white men like you, have a lot to answer for, and to be ashamed of.
I had a journalism major apartment mate who had a pair of round Lennon style glasses that had non-prescription lenses...selectively worn depending on the woman he decided to chase.
I said it on the other thread. Trump's best response would have been to call on congress to revoke the NFL's anti-trust exemption.
I'm at every football game my daughters' high school plays, because one daughter is in marching band and a other is in ROTC and they do the presentation of the colors. The stadium is always packed and and you could hear a pin drop during the colors and the anthem.
This is in a majority Hispanic town, BTW. And there's a good number of black players and families too.
Hasn't reached us yet, I suppose.
I honestly never really cared about players taking a knee. Though I can see how it can perturb some. What does bother me however is NFL players acting as if people saying they don't like it when people take a knee during the national anthem is some violation of their human rights. It reeks of ignorance and detachment from reality. Do they think some guy who works at BEST BUY can head into his store and start preaching about a Single Payer healthcare system? Almost any business, unless its underlying purpose is political, well always try to avoid any political messaging. Unless it is the most benign of things, like putting up American flags during the 4th of July. I suspect this problem will resolve itself next time the Players' Association renegotiates its collective bargaining agreement. When they go into the negotiations and the owners have collectively lost 100's of millions of dollars in revenue form the previous season, something tells me Players will wind up being prohibited from protesting in this fashion.
Peeps don't get it, do they?
The problem isn't that a few knuckleheads don't want to stand for the national anthem, its that the NFL owners are taking their side.
I repeat, the NFL owners DO NOT respect "freedom of speech". They're OK with NFL players being Unpatriotic and spitting on Vets and the USA - BUT against any "homophobia" or supporting the police, or praying on the field.
If Kap had "taken a knee" because the USA was a godless unchristian country that did X, he would've been disciplined so fast your head would've spun.
This is all about the NFL owners - who control everything.
Football is a great sport at the HS/College Level.
The NFL can go to Hell.
I am watching the NFL on rabbit ears. No record of my watching equals no ad revenue for people who hate me.
I want the free service while denying them money.
"When they go into the negotiations and the owners have collectively lost 100's of millions of dollars in revenue form the previous season, something tells me Players will wind up being prohibited from protesting in this fashion."
I still think they should be allowed but the NFL should fine them. Let's see how their principles survive 1/16th of their annual salary for every infraction.
pacwest said...
I mean, I want to be a nice guy, but how far do you go along with idiocy just to be civil? It's not a one way street.
Trump is doing this to change the rules governing the battle space in the culture wars.
Like many in positions of power, the NFL owners viewed it as easiest to "go along to get along" rather than take a stand, because even though they'll probably take a financial hit, the fan opposition to the player demonstrations was disorganized.
Trump just organized the opposition among the fan base, and now the owners are in a tough spot.
"something tells me Players will wind up being prohibited from protesting in this fashion."
Probably fines if the owners can detect dropping revenue and connect it to this stuff,
"Money talks, bullshit walks." The golden rule.
All of us here are not watching the NFL. I watched four college games yesterday,
>But if he makes too many unforced errors and too many unecessary fights, he risks a similar fate as Nixon.
Only three major fights Trump lost is the one with the Gold Star Father (set up, and he took the bait), Megan Kelly, and his comment on McCain (way below the belt).
On all the others since he started to run for Presidet, he gave as good as he took, at a minimum.
Comey It's too early to tell...
"When a president says that it is not a just an opinion."
So the basketball teams were supposed to take Obama's brackets as gospel?
Football is a great sport at the HS/College Level.
The NFL can go to Hell.
How many college players will continue to allow themselves to be endangered and exploited several years for no pay without the prospect of a pro career dangled in front of them?
Let me be right up front about this; I couldn't possibly care less about the NFL or about football. As far as I'm concerned, they can all go bankrupt.
However, I REALLY despise overpaid overwrought ignorant savages (i.e., most football players) making arrogant demands to re-form the culture of the United States to conform with their own petty prejudices. I understand that racial prejudice and discrimination is bad, and that slavery was terrible. Some of my ancestors died in a war to end slavery 150 years ago, and we've paid our dues. African-American families were doing far better back in the 1950s and '60s than they're doing now. The problems NOW are mostly the fault of a minority of black men doing drugs and destroying their own cities and culture.
"All of us here are not watching the NFL."
Well, I'm watching the Packers, but that's different.
Original Mike,
I missed the Bears-Steelers game to make a point. I am a life long Bears fan and used to be a Packer hater.
I'm watching the Pack and rooting for them.
Michael K said...
Blogger harrogate said...
It's reported that the entire Steelers team stayed off the field for the anthem today.
One player, a former Army Captain and Ranger came out and stood for it.
You forgot the Bronze Star.
You're welcome here, Francisco. We don't discriminate here.
I too am watching the Bengals game.
Rabbit ears so nobody gets money for ads.
CPT Alejandro Villanueva - the one player who came out of the locker room for the anthem.
Read that name again.
Is it time for "White Hispanic" to get deployed again? I can hear the hate tweets already.
CPT Alejandro Villanueva - the one player who came out of the locker room for the anthem.
Read that name again.
Is it time for "White Hispanic" to get deployed again? I can hear the hate tweets already.
9/24/17, 4:21 PM
Only player on team courageous enough to do it.
All of us here are not watching the NFL. I watched four college games yesterday,
No NFL here, either. Watched poor Brewers lose and catching a bit of golf [final round of the Tour Championship]. Actually, while I have them on, I'm not really watching much. Watched my Washington Huskies win big yesterday. :-)
Politics was infused in sports the first time a player or a team refused to show up to the White House. Happened quite a bit during the Bush Administration--many years before Trump.
Just looked Villanueva up, he appears to be pure Spaniard. Like me, actually!
How will the Narrative deal with him. Is it only the blood of indigenous peoples that make Hispanics noble? Heh. To ask is to answer it, as long as we keep pretending it isn't 100% about ideology.
Lois Lerner took a knee to the tea party and claimed 5A refuse to answer and kept her job .. Country and culture have been mauled in many ways. Trump is giving us booster shots to fight the infection.
Misplaced reports: I'm at every football game my daughters' high school plays, because one daughter is in marching band and a other is in ROTC and they do the presentation of the colors. The stadium is always packed and and you could hear a pin drop during the colors and the anthem.
This is in a majority Hispanic town, BTW. And there's a good number of black players and families too.
Hasn't reached us yet, I suppose.
Interesting. I now live most of the year in a Hispanic majority town [2/3 to be precise] and there is a lot of patriotism here, too. It was a Trump county.
"The anthem is for all Americans and kneeling simply points out that not all Americans are getting a fair shake."
And when did we all get that fair shake. Do think we all will someday. The basis of the protests is simply not true, and less true today than ever. It's just stupid, and I especially hate being disrespected by stupid rich guys who provide little in return for their enormous income. That income is derived by them making me happy, period. They are not earning their pay, are encouraging others to do the same, and are proud of it. That would certainly be a firing offense at my company, but we only get a fair shake here. How would that go over at your job?
Villanueva is a friend of a friend. He thinks the world of him:
All of us here are not watching the NFL. I watched four college games yesterday.
Quaestor predicts widespread kneeling in next week's NCAA games.
Best policy: Give up the sports habit, unless you're the "sport" and not the potbellied, beer-swilling sports fan. There are more profitable habits to cultivate which do not involve gross quantities of potato chips.
Pro sports have made us passive and fat and prone to useless emotions about absurd activities. Getting over the NFL may be the best thing for our country since the M-1 Garand.
It was a Trump county.
Citizens of Hispanic heritage are just like most other citizens. They resent having our laws and traditions flouted and disparaged.
"How many college players will continue to allow themselves to be endangered and exploited several years for no pay without the prospect of a pro career dangled in front of them?"
That slavery should be ended. They should be paid, and well. Their work and talent is being stolen from them. This is something they should actually be protesting.
"Being in politics is like being a football coach. You have to be smart enough to understand the game and dumb enough to think it’s important."
Eugene McCarthy Quoted in The Washington Post, Nov. 12, 1967
"Is it only the blood of indigenous peoples that make Hispanics noble? Heh."
Steve Sailer likes to point out that the Mexican upper classes, and also the people who get to fill the "designated hispanic" slots near the top of most organizations in the U.S., are essentially pure European in ethnicity – if not for an accident of geography, or an ancestor's detour through Latin America, they'd be considered as "white" here as your average "white" American.
When you're in someone's house, how do you behave?
We stand at our National Anthem. We also wear hats, which were not supposed to do, and kind of talk during it at games.
Who cares what's in everyone's hearts?
If u went to a game as a kid, did you wonder if the people around u wanted to stand?
This isn't new.
When in Rome.
You don't like it, don't take the money. Go somewhere that's more agreeable to you.
No ones forcing them to stay.
And no ones forcing me to watch them or buy their merchandise.
I am being forced to subsidize this.
Matt asks (2:34pm) what he seems to think are devastating questions:
"Are you opposed to players having a political position at all? Or are you just opposed to a specific political position or opinion? If they kneeled or stood for right wing causes would you be as dismissive?"
That's easy. The answers are No, No, and Yes. I don't give a damn about what they say off the job, but on the job they need to show a little respect for the paying customers of both parties and of no party. Here's an example of what I mean:
A few years ago, without any warning, the checkout clerk at a local grocery store subjected me to a rant about what a horrible evil man Obama is while ringing up my groceries. I found it deeply offensive and irritating, and mutttered "Uh, OK" or something when she said "Right?", and got out of there as quickly as I could, even though my opinion of Obama was probably just as low as hers (though rather less knee-jerk, I like to think). I was not surprised that I never saw her there again, and assume that she was quite rightly fired for ranting about politics on the job. Who needs that kind of crap, when he's just trying to buy some damned groceries? Or trying to watch a damned sports event?
What I find interesting is that the kneeling protest (like the raised fist protest) has power only because we allow it to. Ignore the protests and they lose their power. Better yet, make kneeling, a sign of respect and it skewers it even more.
Seriously, if EVERYONE knelt, what's next, lie down?
I disagree that employees should be fired for their political views.
Now let me address this as a fan of the NFL. The NFL is, to me, entertainment. With any form of entertainment the question must be repeatedly asked: "Is there something else I would rather be doing?" And, so, it has become clear that a sizable minority of NFL football players are un-American, or at the very least engaging in un-American acts, with the support of the league apparently. Today, I found that I would rather being doing something else. I mowed the lawn.
(And please do not argue with me that kneeling for the anthem is not un-American. Denouncing Trump or any other politician is not un-American. Criticizing American policy is not un-American. The anthem and the flag are American symbols. Disrespecting them is disrespecting the country for which they stand. I will grant you that the players may not be smart enough to realize that, but honestly I'm not sure if it is worse to be genuinely un-American or a useful idiot.)
One good thing that could - and should - come out of this. How about canceling all future trips of winning sports teams to the White House?
Other things, too. Trump skipped the Kennedy Center honors this year, once it was clear that some of the winners would either back out if they thought he was coming, or insult him to his face. I hope he will just cancel the whole series for the future, and lay off whoever's in charge of arranging it. It's way too noblesse-obligey and royalistic for a democratic republic anyway. If anyone complains, tell them to blame the ungrateful bastards who were the final set of winners and didn't have the grace to behave themselves to the series would continue.
Also, those committees of big-businessmen advisors whose members kept quitting a few weeks ago: shut them down, all of them. None of us had ever heard of any of them until members started quitting - over what? I've already forgotten! - and it would be a first step towards balancing the budget to get rid of them all.
To make even more incredible, the NFL players in London, "Took the knee" during the Star Spangled banner but stood for "God save the Queen".
So they just said FU America to the world.
Ok.
Maybe it's time to start burning jerseys in the stadium parking lots before the games. Since that's what they want. I mean jerseys you have.
No buying anything.
NarSub comments: Trump is giving us booster shots to fight the infection.
Well put. Which reminds me, I should get my flu shot next week.
The Olympics is going to be '68 Mexico all over again.
Great.
Joe said...Seriously, if EVERYONE knelt, what's next, lie down?
--
Mime circus, Joe. Mime freaking Circus! All viewpoints across the spectrum translated into gestures. Race, religion, gender issues, gay rights
I mean..it wasn't long ago when we saw the beginning of that.
Taking a knee looks less childish than the hands up bit..and tagging it to the anthem gives more time to display it.
Standing for the national anthem at a sporting event is an element of decorum, similar to how people in a court are expected to rise when the judge enters or when a moment of silence is asked for a recently deceased person. They're just things that are done as part of societal norms.
The anthem's presence in sporting events mostly isn't there for the players, it's for the fans. Unlike apparently a good number of NFL players, a lot of the fans in the stands and at home do have pride in the country, and playing the anthem pre-game is a means of stirring up emotion for the event to come (or, in the case of the Olympics or similar events, afterward to evoke feelings of national pride in a victory).
Players can certainly act like self-centered jerks and hijack the anthem for their own ends. They should be ready to accept the consequences of doing so however, which are likely to be less fan admiration and ultimately less dollars as fans turned off by this go elsewhere.
To rhhardin and those who suggest that the Anthrm be dropped from sports events: my take is that you are advocating diversity and multi-culturalism. Most studies I have seen suggest that these are the cultural impulses that destroy a nation, not enhance it. The same for teaching that this nation was founded by morally inferior people or that a Constitution is not worth much. I believe there is a lot to be said for binding disparate people together through public displays of cultural norms. Calling this submission really misses the larger point.
Welcome to the world of right wing political correctness.
In ye olden days, Professional team sports were considered bizarre. Teddy Roosevelt was a supporter of College Sports and Amateur Boxing - he thought they built character. But he thought Professional Boxing was a sewer of corruption, and WATCHING professional sports a defect of character.
Teddy Roosevelt believed that instead of sitting around watching professionals play a kids game, we should go out and play our own games, or go out hiking, fishing or camping. Now, I understand why some blue collar guys or someone too old or crippled might disagree, but otherwise, I think he's right.
Since they care so much, maybe they should start at home and become good role models? The NFL could use that.
And in the offseason, work in Those neighborhoods that need help. Put in their time and money.
Still waiting to hear from roesch/voltaire about those alleged ",racist taunts"...
I bet all this is pissing Kim off.
This weekend was supposed to be all about him.
Why should Trump call on Congress for anything? His strategy is to NOT stop them from losing all relevance in coming election cycles.
"Welcome to the world of right wing political correctness."
Liberals built it, conservatives simply live in it.
Paco, you'll get those as soon as Howard answer whether he's going to protest at work in solidarity.
In ye olden days, Professional team sports were considered bizarre. Teddy Roosevelt was a supporter of College Sports and Amateur Boxing - he thought they built character. But he thought Professional Boxing was a sewer of corruption, and WATCHING professional sports a defect of character.
Teddy Roosevelt believed that instead of sitting around watching professionals play a kids game, we should go out and play our own games, or go out hiking, fishing or camping. Now, I understand why some blue collar guys or someone too old or crippled might disagree, but otherwise, I think he's right.
Yes, he was right. TR was my favorite President. My daughters and I were on the phone today [and texting] to discuss our disgust with the protests and the fact that we've wasted a lot of our lives watching sports when we could be actively involved in physical activities. So maybe this whole thing is a blessing for our nation!
The constitution is what makes us Americans. There are rules, and we more or less watch out for each other's rights.
I was surprised when I found out there's no constitutional right to vote.
rhhardin wrote: It's common courtesy for all the players to kneel when one player kneels.
Stupid.
What a powerful word, common courtesy.
Accidentally profound. Whole civilizations have functioned with courtesy at the core.
Not vouching for correctness, just passing this on from Twitter:
pages A62-63 of the league rulebook:
“The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.
“During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.”
Moon my white privileged background includes a blue collar stepfather with an eight grade education, a mother with a tenth grade education and as a result I worked my way through a state college, which is why I empathize with the hard working football players/students who took my classes and others on their way to play in the NFL and are not the dummies ,white or black,so many on this blog seem to believe.
Thank you, Sebastian. I appreciate that information.
I was surprised when I found out there's no constitutional right to vote.
Why?
Blogger roesch/voltaire said...
Moon my white privileged background includes a blue collar stepfather with an eight grade education, a mother with a tenth grade education and as a result I worked my way through a state college, which is why I empathize with the hard working football players/students who took my classes and others on their way to play in the NFL and are not the dummies ,white or black,so many on this blog seem to believe.
Sure. That explains your reluctance to embrace school choice for disadvantage, and your hatred for the only president to run on it as part of his platform.
Now, Trump has just fused politics into football for as far as the eye can see.
Yeah..the assholes actually injecting politics into sorts aren't responsible, the man responding to the assholes injecting politics into sports by calling them out is responsible for interjecting politics into sports.
The only reason Curry was disrespectful to the president is because he knew Trump would respond disrespectfully.
I was surprised when I found out there's no constitutional right to vote.
Why?
Because Democracy was given so much lip service, now I know there's not even a sanity clause.
The actual play in an NFL game is 11 minutes. 16 games for the season. 3 hours of actual play each season. That is for both sides of the ball. Not a bad gig.
"Still waiting to hear from roesch/voltaire about those alleged ",racist taunts"..."
Dang. r/v popped in and still didn't provide any racist taunts. I'm beginning to believe that maybe the racist taunts don't really exist, and r/v was just stretching the truth a bit when he made that claim. Just a bit. You know, not quite lying.
Ok, maybe roesch/voltaire was just lying. Hey, r/v, were you lying when you wrote that? Enquiring minds, etc.
R/V virtue signaling again.
In spite of what Ritmo blabs about, my father dropped out of high school at 15 and joined the Navy. My mother did graduate and attended a business college as they called them in those days.
I went through private college and medical school on full scholarship. And I think the players are being assholes.
I like Thomas Sowell who said "I am so old, I remember when the racist were all white."
"Getting over the NFL may be the best thing for our country since the M-1 Garand."
And I want one.
Catching up after watching "American Assassin" which is an imitation Jason Bourne movie.
"Resistance is futile."
Because Democracy was given so much lip service, now I know there's not even a sanity clause.
Lip service? The Constitution was deliberately designed to limit the influence of democracy to r=the greatest extent possible. Most of the problems we have as a country are a result of attempts to make the country more democratic.
FullMoon said...
CPT Alejandro Villanueva - the one player who came out of the locker room for the anthem.
Read that name again.
Is it time for "White Hispanic" to get deployed again? I can hear the hate tweets already.
9/24/17, 4:21 PM
Only player on team courageous enough to do it.
9/24/17, 4:25 PM
I heard it alleged today, by a woman fresh from Deep Steelers country, that once the captain went out to stand, the rest of the team joined him. For what it's worth.
Francisco D & Michael K.,
Butkus, Lanier, Nitschke and many other great middle linebackers can't be compared to our modern era. The rules were different and therefore a completely different game. Today's rules favor the offence for higher scoring games and supposedly safety of players. In the "old day" spearing was allowed, offensive linemen couldn't use their hands, defensive backs and linebackers could beat the shit out of receivers as long as the ball wasn't in the air. Someone mentioned the "Hammer" Williams in a post here recently, what he did was "clothes lining", it would get a player suspended now days. Actually, it's meaningless to compare eras.
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