August 13, 2017

"There was no police presence. We were watching people punch each other; people were bleeding all the while police were inside of barricades at the park watching."

"It was essentially just brawling on the street and community members trying to protect each other."

Said Brittany Caine-Conley, of the Sojourners United Church of Christ, quoted in "McAuliffe Counters Critics of Police Response to Charlottesville Violence" (NYT).

What is Governor McAuliffe's answer to the critics?
“You can’t stop some crazy guy who came here from Ohio and used his car as a weapon. He is a terrorist.”
That doesn't explain doing nothing about the fighting and brawling Caine-Conley describes. And if the police had managed the crowds, perhaps the car incident would not have been triggered.

Interesting that McAuliffe is calling Fields a "crazy guy." So many people seem intent on characterizing Fields as part of a significant political movement.
Jason Kessler, the organizer of the so-called Unite the Right rally... complained that the authorities had “exacerbated the violence” by failing to separate his followers from counterprotesters, leading to the melee.
I've seen how the police have managed crowds here in Madison, Wisconsin — huge rallies with opposing sides. I'd like to know how the police in Virginia could be so impotent. Are they so afraid of being accused of doing something wrong that they protect themselves by doing nothing?
Asked about the brawling and why police did not do more to control it, Brian Moran, Virginia’s secretary of public safety, said in an interview on Sunday that “it was a volatile situation and it’s unfortunate people resorted to violence.’’ But, he said, “From our plan, to ensure the safety of our citizens and property, it went extremely well.’’

Governor McAuliffe also defended the police response, saying, “It’s easy to criticize, but I can tell you this, 80 percent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons. You saw the militia walking down the street, you would have thought they were an army,” he added. “I was just talking to the State Police upstairs; they had better equipment than our State Police had,” he said, referring to the militia members. “And yet not a shot was fired, zero property damage.”
Pathetic. The police were afraid of the guns? But no shots were fired, even in response to punching and brawling. That makes it sound as though those people with guns were quite restrained, and yet they terrified the police.

319 comments:

1 – 200 of 319   Newer›   Newest»
Hagar said...

CYA all the way in the USA!

Quayle said...

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand....

Jim at said...

"but I can tell you this, 80 percent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons."

Uh-huh.
Suuuuuuure they did.

Listen, assclown. If that were the case, you'd have a lot more than one person dead. And it wouldn't have been the result of a car being driven by a maniac.

Michael K said...

"I'd like to know how the police in Virginia could be so impotent."

They were ordered to be. I already posted a link to the ACLU confirming they were tld to stand down.

This is what we saw in San Jose and Berkeley. Left wing Mayors and police chiefs, who of course are also politicians, have a motive.

Make right wingers and Trump look violent.

Big Mike said...

Heather Heyer died because police failed to either disperse the mob at Fourth and Water, or failing that, to close off the entrance to Fourth Street above Main. Does that count as protecting the community?

Khesanh 0802 said...

It is obvious that the police were unprepared and unwilling. How long had the people of Charlottesville and the state of VA known this confrontation was going to occur? The reality is that McCauliffe should have had the state police there and quite likely some riot troops from his national guard. Irresponsible, incompetent behavior by the big M. Then to claim that a bunch of citizens were better equipped than his police forces makes him look even more incompetent. Then again the German police in Hamburg were incapable of controlling the mobs there and they had at least a couple of years to prepare. Lack of leadership; lack of seriousness; lack of intelligent assessment of risk because none of these lightweights want to look too "mean".

My wife asked me what happened in Charlottesville and I told her that if it had not been for the idiot driver the whole thing would have pretty much have blown over.

n.n said...

Peacekeepers, with a predictable outcome. Was there international oversight?

They should have held their parade in a community known for its tolerance. Although, with progressive liberalization, that window may soon close.

stever said...

McAuliffe didn't want the woman to be killed but otherwise this was perfect for him.

antiphone said...

That makes it sound as though those people with guns were quite restrained, and yet they terrified the police.

White supremacist Americans are being gun shamed. So unfair!

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

BTW, I'm a bit spread thin, so I gots to make sure I'm on the record re one of the traps I set.

I.e., the Ta-Nehisi Coates one.

Nuff said.

The Vault Dweller said...

Obviously aside from the murder, the police non-response is going to wind up being the most glaring malfeasance of this event. Some have suggested that the police were given an order to stand-down and basically let the two sides go at it. If there is evidence of this, and it was done with the intention of shutting down the original protest, this should result in a big civil rights lawsuit.

Now as far as the car incident goes, to me at least it looks like a murder. I know we don't know all the facts yet but those videos seem pretty convincing that the driver, drove into that crowd deliberately and intentionally. I haven't seen any good evidence of premeditation or what his motivation was, but looks like enough for 2nd degree murder as is. That being said if I were speculating on the changing state of the driver while he was there, my guess is he originally went there with no criminal intent. He merely wanted to take part in the protest. He probably heard about the permitting issue where the city tried to stop his side from being able to even protest. Then after the protest and counter-protest were declared illegal by the police for safety reasons, he was mad. He probably was subjected to lots of abuse as he and his side left. Then as he was driving away, he sees the other side on the streets still doing their protest even though his side was forced to leave and did in fact comply with the police order. As they were chanting "Who's streets? Are streets!" He lost it. He was so angry at what he believed to be a perceived injustice done to his side, that he decided to drive his car into a group of what was the other side.

Now obviously this wouldn't justify the action, but I think it is a plausible scenario. But the telling thing is, if this scenario or something close to it is correct, had the police done their jobs and protected the original protesters did their protest and they were allowed to finish, then I bet the subsequent murder would never have happened. When people feel like the police are knowingly and intentionally failing to protect their rights, they sometimes feel entitled to protect their right by their own means.

clint said...

"Are they so afraid of being accused of doing something wrong that they protect themselves by doing nothing?"

As recently as Friday, the local government was trying to shut down the protest. A judge ordered them to allow it.

On Saturday, just before the scheduled start of the legal protest, the police cancelled the protest -- because of the violence.

It doesn't take a tinfoil hat to suspect that the police intended to let *some* skirmishes take place to justify cancelling the protest.

Fabi said...

Is it true that Antifa did not have the proper permit(s)?

n.n said...

Now, they are trying to force association of American militias and progressive liberal [class] diversity. They tried that before, until they met the actual members, [class] diversity and all, and the narrative was dismembered as a baby processed by Planned Parenthood corporation.

buwaya said...

They still write about the great salonnieres of the 17th century. Althouse fills that position in the present day, a Marquise de Ramboulliet, perhaps, for our time, a charming and clever hostess.

Who knows, really, who it is that frequents chez Althouse? The modern style is to attend in disguise, as in a masque, arrayed as harlequins and pierrots.

AReasonableMan said...

It is telling that Althouse attacks the police on this one issue, when she defends the police on almost every other issue. The fascists who invaded Charlottesville, against the will of the people of Charlottesville, carry the responsibility here. They were not wanted. How sanguine would Althouse be if hundreds of heavily armed young men carrying torches and bearing fascist symbols began strutting up and down the streets of her neighborhood? Let's tell the truth here - these people are agitators, nothing more and nothing less. Normally Althouse would be against agitators, but not this time.

Mr. Majestyk said...

Does Virginia have a state version of FOIA? If so, maybe someone like Judicial Watch will try to see if the police were ordered to stand down.

Crimso said...

"Althouse fills that position in the present day, a Marquise de Ramboulliet, perhaps, for our time, a charming and clever hostess."

The ghost of a racehorse used to occasionally make similar observations. What was it, "Theatre of Topicks?"

Big Mike said...

@Vault Dweller, there's a lengthy exchange of comments regarding the car incident a couple Althouse posts down.

The facts are (1) antifa protesters blockaded the intersection of Fourth and Water streets. (2) Water is just below Main street, which is closed to vehicular traffic. (3) Fourth is narrow and one-way, by the time the driver realized that he could not get through, he was effectively entrapped by the antifa.

What we don't know is the extent to which he was verbally abused (just sit and take it) or his safety threatened, though there is some indication that his car was the target for stones and clubs. He may well have felt endangered and hoped that he could bull his way through the blockage. If he panicked after violence done to his car and threatened against himself, his actions are more understandable.

Big Mike said...

@Fabi, when you're in the antifa you don't need no effing permits.

Birkel said...

Rights ARM has criticized:
1. Right to travel,
2. Right to peaceably assemble,
3. Freedom of speech,
4. Right to bear arms, and
5. Right to self-defense.

If ARM suggests soldiers should be housed for free in your house he will complete the set.

Fabi said...

That's what I thought, Big Mike!

Rabel said...

I'll bring this one up here. It's from NBC:

"The press conference ended when a man in a plaid shirt punched Mr. Kessler. Although the police detained him briefly, he was not arrested."

Rabel said...

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right.. nah, fuck it.

Gospace said...

Blogger The Vault Dweller said...

Now as far as the car incident goes, to me at least it looks like a murder. I know we don't know all the facts yet but those videos seem pretty convincing that the driver, drove into that crowd deliberately and intentionally. I haven't seen any good evidence of premeditation or what his motivation was, but looks like enough for 2nd degree murder as is.


There's lots of video. Go to gatesofvienna.net for an analysis of one of them. You may change your mind.

buwaya said...

If ARM needs help re quartering of soldiers, it certainly can be done, and has been, on US territories.

Fabi said...

Quit being retrograde, Birkel -- those freedoms are only afforded to those practicing goodthink.

Ann Althouse said...

"It is telling that Althouse attacks the police on this one issue, when she defends the police on almost every other issue."

That is.a distorted perception of yours. You can click on the "police" tag and check the accuracy of what you've said. You might want to spend some time doing that and let us know what you find.

There are 379 posts with that tag. You could code them pro-police, anti-police, and neutral. Maybe several people could do this independently and compare results.

Cheryl said...

The (repugnant) white supremacist groups got a permit to protest. Is that right? And then counter-protesters organized and held their own event, kind of, but without a permit. The police would not get between the groups, would not act to separate the groups. And then the two groups started fighting. Do I have this basically right so far?

Things started getting ugly (an understatement), and only then, in an effort to make everyone disperse, the state declared the white supremacists to be out of control and shut them down. In the process of shutting things down, someone was killed in an attack with a car. In spite of many, many guns reportedly there, the only deadly weapon used was a car. Is that right?

The group that wanted to protest, and got a permit, was shut down. It seems to me that this was the desired outcome, because the group could not legally be denied a permit. Why did they have to get a permit in the first place, if an un-permitted counter protest could shut them down? What does a permit entitle you to?

I am in no way trying to defend the white supremacists. But it seems to me that the law should be blind to the political opinions that a group holds. Once the state starts picking winners and losers based on who merits protection, we are on a path that at a minimum doesn't lead to free speech. This seems very scary. If I have facts wrong, please correct them.

YoungHegelian said...

@Big Mike,

Remember that the City of Charlottesville attempted to move the Alt-Right rally to a different location & was blocked by a judge, who declared that the rally could take place in its original venue.

It's clear the Righties had a permit, because they went to court to hold teh city to its terms. So, that leaves two choices for the Antifa crowd:

1) The City of Charlottesville offered them a permit whose terms were so broad there was no reason for them to protest. If so, why did the city favor them & not the Alt-Righties?

or

2) The Antifa crowd had no permit & simply showed up to attempt to shut down the rally by their use of the heckler's veto & the threat of violence, which is what happened.

I can find absolutely no mention anywhere of the Antifa crowd having a permit, & the permit was such a big deal for the Alt-Righties you think it would get mentioned. Has Antifa gotten permits for their riots in the past? But, as has been said "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", maybe there was a permit, but it sure as hell doesn't look like it.

Ann Althouse said...

I'm more likely to post when I'm critical of something, so the natural skewing would be anti-police, but I think I react to certain kinds of things police do, and I'm critical, and I also have posts that are critical of people who are jumping to blame police when they don't know enough about what happened (e.g. Ferguson).

Henry said...

40 MPH.

AReasonableMan said...

Curious to know how many pro-agitator posts there have been as well.

Michael K said...

"failing that, to close off the entrance to Fourth Street above Main"

I've never been there but there was a fire truck parked across the cross street, maybe the Pedestrian Mall. Had the street been blocked that the protesters were blocking by by a truck or similar large vehicle, all would have been well.

Ann Althouse said...

"How sanguine would Althouse be if hundreds of heavily armed young men carrying torches and bearing fascist symbols began strutting up and down the streets of her neighborhood? Let's tell the truth here - these people are agitators, nothing more and nothing less. Normally Althouse would be against agitators, but not this time."

I've experienced KKK rallies and Westboro Church things and the anti-Walker protests in Madison. My standard position is to support free speech and not give these people the respect of being awed by the kind of power they would like to project. I prefer the more-speech response, particularly in the form of ridiculing people. I tend not to get scared or angry at people who are doing demonstrations. I think it's an American tradition, part of free speech, and people are often just terribly misguided or trying to get attention and action. I don't think they should be pumped up by citizens and cops acting all scared.

Gospace said...

Since all thes Charlottesville threads are going to run together... In a comment on an earlier post someone wondered why whites might feel threatened. In a way that implied it was a totally nonsensical view to hold. Gay Patriot has a roundup of a dozen or so links that go a long way towards explaining that. In any of the links for white substitute black or Asian or aborigine or Indian (dot or feather) or Arab or Chinese or Pakistani or any other ethnic or racial grouping. Then imagine how many minutes it would take for the idea to be condemned by every politician in America along with every editorial page in every publication.

Henry said...

The group that wanted to protest, and got a permit, was shut down.

The Friday night torchlight parade did not have a permit. They attacked counter-protesters with pepper spray.

"The police eventually declared an “unlawful assembly” and separated the groups."

antiphone said...

Once the state starts picking winners and losers based on who merits protection, we are on a path that at a minimum doesn't lead to free speech.

Just to follow your logic, who should decide whether the statue of Robert E. Lee stays or goes?

Dr Weevil said...

Vault Dweller:
I agreed with you as long as I'd only seen the collision from the side. Then I followed a link Rabel provided on a previous thread, showing it from behind (up 4th Street). What convinced me the driver may well be acquitted is that after he hit the other cars, 7-10 people with black masks and baseball bats jumped on his car and started smashing it. One of them knocked a hole a foot long and a couple inches wide with a single blow - pretty impressive when dealing with safety glass. This all happened within two (2!) seconds of the collision, and all but one came from behind him: the one was already on the sidewalk right next to the collision. In other words, it appears that he was being chased by a fair-sized mob with baseball bats before the collision. After it, he sped away in reverse the way he had come, running over several of the assholes and morons (they're both) who were attacking him. I'm guessing they're a fair percentage of the people in critical and serious condition. I'm also guessing that if he hadn't managed to get away, they would have killed him, and his remains would have been spread fairly widely. Don't believe me? Follow the link and see how they behaved when they thought they had him trapped.

This view of the event matches very well the claim on Twitter that the dead woman and all of the injured (maybe just all the more seriously injured) are IWW, IS, and DSA, i.e. not innocent bystanders out for a stroll or bringing groceries home. That was from Jeet Heer of the New Republic, who seemed to mean it as a compliment.

YoungHegelian said...

I suspect that as the various legal cases that arise from these riots work their way forward, it's going to start to look real bad for the Charlottesville officials & the governor. I'm sure it'll come out that the authorities wanted things to get just a little ugly so that they could shut down the rally that they never wanted. But, things got out of hand & turned major ugly, & the authorities simply lost control.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a career-ender for most of the involved parties. If it fucks over Gov. McAuliffe, that sleazy bag-man for the Clinton machine, then the Nazis, racists, & Stalinists will have unwittingly done the Republic a great service.

Michael K said...

In previous comments it has been pointed out that many of these "alt right" demonstrators are teenaged boys.

America right has a war on boys, Books have been written about it.

Many teenaged boys have been poorly educated and probably know nothing about Nazis other than they are considered bad ass.

The leaders of some of these organizations should know better but it is pretty risky to condemn all these young men as beyond the Pale.

Leftists are asking for big trouble with a lot of this stuff,.

MayBee said...

I'd guess the police and the city didn't want to look like they were allowing White Supremacists to protest in their city. They didn't want to get caught looking like they were protecting their right to free speech.

Michael K said...

America right now has a war...

AReasonableMan said...

antiphone said...
who should decide whether the statue of Robert E. Lee stays or goes?


Amongst all the various complex issues this one is easy, the people of Charlottesville.

HT said...

would not have been triggered.

O, I see.

Please stop - NOW - speculating what we all would have been saying had it been a "leftist." You're language is such a giveaway.

Unknown said...

"Then I followed a link Rabel provided on a previous thread, showing it from behind (up 4th Street). What convinced me the driver may well be acquitted is that after he hit the other cars, 7-10 people with black masks and baseball bats jumped on his car and started smashing it. One of them knocked a hole a foot long and a couple inches wide with a single blow..."

What is wrong with you? They were hitting the perp's car AFTER he hit several people so hard that they flew up in the air. Then he ran over more driving backwards. It's really telling how badly you people want to see him walk. Despicable deplorables that you are.

Mutaman said...

"Normally Althouse would be against agitators, but not this time."

Ann woke up today and had to make a decision- how far should I go to placate my teabagger base? Not being the sharpest pencil in the box, Ann decided to go as far as she could even to the extent of defending Nazis and the KKK. Not a smart decision.

As a result she is once again the laughing stock of the internet and reasonable folks are again reminded what she is really all about.

Big Mike said...

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a career-ender for most of the involved parties.

Sorry, but I'd be stunned if this impacted the careers of any of the local officials. McAuliffe had been touted as a possible presidential candidate, however I doubt he could carry his "home" state right now, so there's that.

MayBee said...

Gospace-

We heard a similar thing here, brought to us by Althouse about the Google firing. They said....imagine if he had written that biology based criticism about black people or gays, and you would see how bigoted it is.
And you are right. We could take what BLM says and make it about whites, and it would be deemed racist. You could take the guys from this weekend and change what they said to be about black people, and it would be deemed perfectly ok.
You can say things about white people- and even use "white" as a derogatory term, and that is pretty much fine with the social justice people.

mockturtle said...

"but I can tell you this, 80 percent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons."

LOL! This is something I would like verified by objective analysis of videos.

Cheryl said...

Henry--thanks. I did not know that (obviously). But they were still permitted to protest for an hour or so on Saturday? That seems weird.

Antiphon--I would agree with AReasonableMan here. If the elected City Council votes to remove it, then it gets removed.

antiphone said...

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a career-ender for most of the involved parties. If it fucks over Gov. McAuliffe, that sleazy bag-man for the Clinton machine, then the Nazis, racists, & Stalinists will have unwittingly done the Republic a great service.

Chief Strategist Bannon will be pleased. All has gone according to plan. Winning!

MayBee said...

It's funny about the guns because anti-gun people are always saying an armed populace won't stop the government.

Unknown said...

"In previous comments it has been pointed out that many of these "alt right" demonstrators are teenaged boys. America right has a war on boys, Books have been written about it."


This is just demented. Oh those poor misunderstood "boys".

mockturtle said...

So...these antifas attack a group of demonstrators, 80% of whom are armed with semiautomatics. Smart.

Night Owl said...

"The fascists who invaded Charlottesville, against the will of the people of Charlottesville, carry the responsibility here."

The person who drove into the crowd is the one responsible for the death. As for who is responsible for the violence that led up to the death, aren't the counter-protesters equally to blame as the "fascists" exercising their right to assemble? And if the police were lax in their duty to keep the peace, how are they free of any responsibility?

Why are you casting aspersions on Althouse for asking legitimate questions? What are you accusing her of?

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

What is wrong with you? They were hitting the perp's car AFTER he hit several people so hard that they flew up in the air. Then he ran over more driving backwards.

People who are not out to start trouble do not walk through downtown areas with baseball bats in their hands. That the protestors had these weapons ready at hand showed that they were not Boy Scouts out for a lark, but essentially, rioters.

That video that Weevil & Rable have discussed will spring that sorry-ass kid. He'll get up there on the stand, say he feared for his life, & the defense will show that video of all these lefty punks with bats at the ready, the jury will then have reasonable doubt & they'll say "Not Guilty".

Just wait.

Dr Weevil said...

Unknown:
My point was that numerous people wearing masks and carrying baseball bats were chasing him before he hit anyone. I'm told that they'd hit his car with a bat at least once already, though I haven't seen that video yet.

Have you watched the video? Do you get it? Do you understand that he was almost certainly in fear for his life before the collision, and that his fear was entirely justified? That the thugs with the masks and bats had put him into a 'fight or flight' mode, and are therefore partially (arguably mostly, perhaps even entirely) responsible for the death and all of the injuries, including their own?

Of course you don't. You're the moron who never apologized for saying this happened on a pedestrian mall, even when I linked to Google Maps to show that 4th Street in Charlottesville(unlike 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th) is not a pedestrian mall but a through street where cars have the right of way.

Henry said...

America right now has a war...

The big march called out 100 marchers. They only managed to assault anyone with impunity when they marched illegally on Friday night. When they get outnumbered on Saturday they whined about police protection. Richard Spencer complains 'that he was kicked by police officers holding shields.'

This is a war the fascists will lose. Again.

AReasonableMan said...

I am basically sympathetic towards the communities from whom the agitators are drawn, poor and dispossessed whites, and if they had been protesting some sane issue, like wages or working conditions or unemployment levels or just about anything that could improve the lot of their community I would have considerable sympathy. But this was an insane issue, they have no right to tell the people of Charlottesville what to do with their own fucking statue. All the agitators want to do is cause trouble for people who are much more successful than they are. This is the politics of resentment in its most ugly form. And this is something Althouse would not normally touch with a barge pole.

Narayanan Subramanian said...

The interesting question is who were the cops more afraid of ... Group that followed procedure and obtained a permit or those who showed up with weapons to disrupt needed no permit.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Why don't some docs and lawyers understand the vastness of the chasm between them and genuinely successful folks?

Can't you F-ing imagine that there are plenty of folks that are more than a thousand times further away from you than you are from some dude sleeping in a box? Don't they teach basic arithmetic to docs and lawyers?

As a thought experiment, try to understand where you stand compared to true success. And then, act accordingly, so as to not embarrass/humiliate yourself.

Sheesh.

Henry said...

Henry--thanks. I did not know that (obviously). But they were still permitted to protest for an hour or so on Saturday? That seems weird.

@Cheryl -- The police seemed to be operating on the idea of being present, doing nothing, and hoping nothing would happen. That proved wrong. Anyway, that's my take.

n.n said...

People think that selective-child is less progressive than one-child.

The [class] diversitists are a greater blight on society than the color supremacists.

Both the national socialists and fascists, including Antifa, need to lose.

antiphone said...

You could take the guys from this weekend and change what they said to be about black people, and it would be deemed perfectly ok.

This is a great thought experiment. What would that look like from your point of view?

Dr Weevil said...

Henry:
This is also a war the fascists will win, because they're fascists on both sides. People who go around in black masks clubbing people with bats can call themselves "anti"fascists but there's nothing anti about their fascism.

The Vault Dweller said...

In other words, it appears that he was being chased by a fair-sized mob with baseball bats before the collision.

I had not seen the video you referred to earlier and I can see how that video gives that impression. However, I think think this video which is shot from further down the street from the direction the car initially came from suggests that the people in the video you linked were not chasing him down the street with bats and were more likely near where the collision occurred and reacted after the collision by striking the car. At least to my mind it seems like the car was traveling too fast and traveled too far both before the collision and the distance the car continued to travel forward after the collision for armed people on foot to have been behind him chasing him and still have been those same armed people in your video. Especially considering how quickly after the collision the armed people in your video struck the car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVkD7c2D6H0

YoungHegelian said...

@Henry,

This is a war the fascists will lose. Again.

Well, yes, the real fascists will lose. There are very few of them.

However, all those millions of Americans that the Antifa crowd considers to be every bit as fascist as the Alt-Righties? They're not going to lose...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

'Oh, I bill at $250 an hour (not to mention my cut of staff), I have a helicopter, I'm sooooooo cool.'


Idiots.

Ann Althouse said...

Remember the guidelines for commenting: "For everyone else, try to be responsive to the post, don't make personal attacks on other commenters, bring some substance or humor to the conversation, and don't do that thing of putting in a lot of extra line breaks."

I've had to delete at least three comments in this thread because of the extra line breaks problem. I delete those without reading them, so don't imagine that there's some substantive censorship going on here. I just reject the formatting. Wise up!

Narayanan Subramanian said...

@ARM. How does their protest affect anything Charlottesville may decide to do?

Trumpit said...

Peaceful protest means not bringing weapons to the venue. Check the film "frame by frame" as some ninja turtle suggested. Metal detectors should be used to crack down on violent thug protesters. Anyone possessing a weapon should be charged with a weapons violation, neutered, and sent down the trash chute.

Big Mike said...

The (repugnant) white supremacist groups got a permit to protest. Is that right? And then counter-protesters organized and held their own event, kind of, but without a permit. The police would not get between the groups, would not act to separate the groups. And then the two groups started fighting. Do I have this basically right so far?

@Cheryl, yes you do. In fact, to go further, everyone seems to be in agreement that the fighting was initiated by the group that did not have a permit, and that the white supremacist group, though armed, did not retaliate except insofar as they needed to defend themselves. Despite their being armed, no shots were fired.

Things started getting ugly (an understatement), and only then, in an effort to make everyone disperse, the state declared the white supremacists to be out of control and shut them down. In the process of shutting things down, someone was killed in an attack with a car. In spite of many, many guns reportedly there, the only deadly weapon used was a car. Is that right?

Almost right. The police declared the permitted demonstration to be an unlawful assembly because of the "breach of the public peace." Since the breach of the public peace was initiated by the counter-protesters, one would think that there are grounds for a lawsuit against the city. The automobile may have been trying to flee from a violent attack (see my comment at 7:32).

The group that wanted to protest, and got a permit, was shut down. It seems to me that this was the desired outcome, because the group could not legally be denied a permit. Why did they have to get a permit in the first place, if an un-permitted counter protest could shut them down? What does a permit entitle you to?

My cynical answer is that the permit tells the Democrat Party's thugs when and where you'll be so you can be physically attacked.

I am in no way trying to defend the white supremacists.

Good, that.

But it seems to me that the law should be blind to the political opinions that a group holds.

That's how I interpret "equal protection under the law." The courts, too, mostly.

Once the state starts picking winners and losers based on who merits protection, we are on a path that at a minimum doesn't lead to free speech. This seems very scary.

Understatement. Are you British?

If I have facts wrong, please correct them.

The only question was whether young Mr. Fields deliberately entered Fourth Street with an intent to use his car as a weapon, or did he do so because the police, in their ineptitude and despite a violent mob blocking the intersection of Fourth and Water, failed to seal off the street. In the latter case he was trapped and may have threatened and/or assaulted, and subsequently panicked.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

For the record: I'm talkin' a shitty helicopter that is meant to say 'a have a helicopter, not a shitty plane'.

If a lawyer or doc actually had an baller copter, they'd deserve props.

Unknown said...

"People who are not out to start trouble do not walk through downtown areas with baseball bats in their hands. That the protestors had these weapons ready at hand showed that they were not Boy Scouts out for a lark, but essentially, rioters."

I don't care if they used their bats against that car after what the guy had done. As for why the Alt Right white supremacists had weapons and shields, you don't bother asking.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Althouse,

You can delete everything I've ever typed, and will ever type.


Don't care.

YoungHegelian said...

@trumpit,

Anyone possessing a weapon should be charged with a weapons violation

Kind of tuff to do in a state like VA with very lenient Open Carry laws.

Ralph L said...

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a career-ender for most of the involved parties.

Nagin was reelected in New Orleans. Thankfully, Virginia has one term governors.

HT said...

Trumpit, if you read only this blog, you'd think that none of the supremacists had any weapons at all. Hell, one commenter (at least) already KNOWS that the initial response (driving into protesters) of the driver was nothing more than fight or flight. Even Ann has strongly suggested that. The NYT has photos of both the nationalists and counterprotesters (anarchists) with weapons. I saw only the nationalists with guns. But many had sticks and shields and wore helmets, so they came to party too.

n.n said...

Anyone possessing a weapon should be charged with a weapons violation

A scalpel, a bat, etc. can be both tools and weapons. It depends on how they are Planned.

Dr Weevil said...

Vault Dweller:
Thanks, that does change things, but doesn't help the prosecution much. If he'd already been attacked leaving the parking garage, or even seen others attacked, seeing a bunch of guys with black masks and baseball bats ahead of him may be exactly why he hit the gas, trying to get past them. Were they checking every car for guys with fascist-looking haircuts? I'm going to guess that's exactly what they were doing, or what he would have thought they were doing.

mockturtle said...

Trumpit opines: Anyone possessing a weapon should be charged with a weapons violation, neutered, and sent down the trash chute.

Presumably this included baseball bats.

n.n said...

Nagin was reelected in New Orleans.

You're kidding. He was the principal cause of the dysfunction that forced excessive personal injury and property damage.

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

As for why the Alt Right white supremacists had weapons and shields, you don't bother asking.

I would if there is any evidence they used them, legally or illegally.

Sorry, Un. It looks like, once again, the lefties started the violence on Saturday (I'm suspending judgement on Friday night's torchlight parade until I know more facts).

There were other examples of the Left beating on the Righties, the use of at least one makeshift flame thrower, & human waste being tossed on not just the Righties, but also reporters. In other words, Antifa being its normal self.

Henry said...

There was one firearms arrest:

James M. O’Brien, 44, of Gainesville, Florida, was arrested and charged with carrying a concealed handgun.

http://wset.com/news/local/three-more-suspects-arrested-after-unrest-in-charlottesville

Unknown said...

"Sorry, Un. It looks like, once again, the lefties started the violence on Saturday (I'm suspending judgement on Friday night's torchlight parade until I know more facts)."

Sorry, but you know no such thing.

mockturtle said...

There were other examples of the Left beating on the Righties, the use of at least one makeshift flame thrower, & human waste being tossed on not just the Righties, but also reporters. In other words, Antifa being its normal self.

Shit warfare.

The Vault Dweller said...

@Dr Weevil

I have also seen another short clip that looks like it shows the car in question before any of these other videos exciting a parking garage. And while exciting at least one person in what I assume are Antifa protestors strike his car with a bat. However, I don't know for sure if it is the same car, (though it does appear to be the same make, model, and similar color) or how long before the collision occurred.

If it is true that certainly would have an effect on the state of mind of the driver. Whether it is enough to justify self-defense, mitigate it to voluntary manslaughter, or perhaps do nothing and leave it at 2nd degree murder I don't know. But like always this does look like a case that needs to be fully investigated. I think it is interesting that despite the police chief saying it was premeditated, and despite the many politicians and those in the media calling it terrorism, the suspect is still only charged with 2nd degree murder. Suggests to me they are lacking clear evidence of premeditation and motive still.

I'll see if I can find that video and post it later.

Gahrie said...

That makes it sound as though those people with guns were quite restrained, and yet they terrified the police.

Armed citizens always scare the government, which is why they try so very hard to disarm us.

Fabi said...

"...poor and dispossessed whites..."

Did you review all of thier bank statements, ARM? The kid involved in the incident had a nice ride -- not sure I'd label him poor or dispossessed. What are you basing your assessment upon -- other than stereotypes?

YoungHegelian said...

Un,

The Righties had the permit to be there. The Lefties didn't. Strike one against the Lefties.

Go look at the photos of the righties who were beaten up. The gleeful tweets of using aerosol cans as flame throwers, which Weevil linked to in a previous thread. The complaints by the news media of being abused in various ways.

The Righties did none of that. For one thing, they were massively outnumbered, so it makes sense why.

It surprises you that a bunch of Nazis would have better mission discipline & cohesion than a rag-tag bunch of "anarchists" & commies? It makes perfect sense to me.

AReasonableMan said...

Well if they are not either poor or dispossessed in some way then they are just a bunch of privileged whiners who no one could feel much sympathy for.

Earnest Prole said...

I've had to delete at least three comments in this thread because of the extra line breaks problem.

I think there may be a new formatting glitch with Blogger and certain browsers. I assure you I know how to format.

Dr Weevil said...

Why did the Nazis bring shields? Most likely because they heard what happened at a demonstration in Charlottesville by the Klan five weeks before. (I thought it was the same park and statue, but apparently a different park with a Stonewall Jackson statue.) Here's CNN:

". . . three people were taken to the hospital -- two for heat-related issues and one for alcohol usage.
"Twenty-two people were arrested. Police originally said 23 people were arrested but one person was counted twice.
"It was not clear what they were charged with or whether those arrested were Klan supporters, counterprotesters or some from each group."

If you read the previous part of the story, it's obvious that most if not all of the threats and violence are coming from the anti-Klan side. It's also obvious that an event with 22 arrests and only 3 hospitalizations, none for violence, is a resounding success for the police at least. It looks like the Charlottesville police are perfectly capable of keeping order when the politicians let them do their job.

Of course, it would be nice if we could some better poster-boys for the First Amendment than the Klan and the Neo-Nazis.

Unknown said...

"The Righties had the permit to be there. The Lefties didn't. Strike one against the Lefties."

So how does this prove the Lefties started the violence?

"Go look at the photos of the righties who were beaten up. The gleeful tweets of using aerosol cans as flame throwers..."

I've seen plenty of pictures of Lefties that were beaten up and the hateful faces of the white supremacist rightists.

mockturtle said...

I may never defend White Nationalists but I will defend their civil rights same as I do those of BLM, et al, so long as they obey the law.

mockturtle said...

Those who believe that 'alt-right' folk don't deserve to live are the epitome of hate and intolerance.

n.n said...

We should treat [class] diversitists (e.g. DNC, Antifa) and color supremacists (e.g. Black Panthers, National Socialists) with equal tolerance but not normalization, lest they force a progressive condition that denies individual dignity and human value.

Howard said...

Blogger 3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
Why don't some docs and lawyers understand the vastness of the chasm between them and genuinely successful folks?...
This fact and the unmasking of Dr. Bill Harford (Tom Cruz) where he learns that he is just another whore plaything to the real powerful is the main theme of Eyes Wide Shut. Most people got distracted by the sex.

The Vault Dweller said...

Regarding the various commenters on 'poor and disposessed', in the article in an earlier Althouse post about the suspect, it mentions that his father was killed in a drunk driving accident either shortly before or after he was born. It also mentions that he received control of a trust created by his father when he turned 18. However, I suspect this trust wasn't the uber family wealth, family trust types, but rather one created by a probate court handling his father's estate. Given the suddenness of his father's death he likely didn't have a will. The intestacy laws in Kentucky apparently award 1/2 the estate to the spouse and the other 1/2 to the children. Since he would have been a minor the court would have likely created a trust to hold his share until he turned 18. My guess is this wasn't much and may have been just enough for him to get a nice car which a normally foolish 18 year old man very likely could have done. Also his mother is a paraplegic so she probably would have had some significant costs of her own to deal with, so it is doubtful she could have given him much.

CWJ said...

"I've seen plenty of pictures of Lefties that were beaten up and the hateful faces of the white supremacist rightists."

Oh my goodness! Hateful faces. Well if only fewer of the Antifa wore masks, we just might see their faces as well.

Lem said...

ACLU of Virginia tweeted that the police were "ordered to stand down".

https://twitter.com/acluva/status/896386562484731904

Bay Area Guy said...

The police "stand-down" order means that the government is supporting the side administering the beatings. At UC Berkeley, they give cops the "stand-down" order while Antifa is smashing windows, burning stuff and slugging people in the head with skateboards.

The Left has some very violent elements.

FleetUSA said...

This is the sort of analysis which should be the hallmark of the MSM but most regrettably they aren't up to it. Fortunately we have our most honored Professor Althouse to clarify events. Bravo.

This is why I visit this site at least once a day and always use the Amazon portal as my small contribution to the blogs continued existence.

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

So how does this prove the Lefties started the violence?

Uhhhhmmm, that they broke the law by showing up to shut down a perfectly legal rally that a judge had decided could go ahead?

Unknown, has there ever been a peaceful Antifa demo? Ever? They're street fightin' men (& women) & proud of it!

Fabi said...

"Well if they are not either poor or dispossessed in some way then they are just a bunch of privileged whiners who no one could feel much sympathy for."

So you have no clue about their financial condition, but, for some reason, wanted to frame it as the politics of resentment. So noted.

Ralph L said...

it shows the car in question ... exciting a parking garage.
Guess it raised all the toll barriers.

Chest Rockwell said...

Some riveting photos here... https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-protests-unite-the-right.html

Unknown said...

"So how does this prove the Lefties started the violence?"

".....that they broke the law by showing up to shut down a perfectly legal rally that a judge had decided could go ahead?"

And how does this prove that the Lefties started the violence?

The Vault Dweller said...

@Ralph L.

Yeah I'm tired. I noticed the typo afterward. My fault for just right clicking the red squiggly line and hitting the first word I saw. However, in my defense I repeated the same error, so I at least have consistency in my favor.

n.n said...

If there was no threat to his life, then he should be tried for committing one count of elective abortion. If there was a credible threat (a la Reginald Denny), then it was an act of self-defense in response to mob violence.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Blogger Bay Area Guy said...
The police "stand-down" order means that the government is supporting the side administering the beatings. At UC Berkeley, they give cops the "stand-down" order while Antifa is smashing windows, burning stuff and slugging people in the head with skateboards.

The Left has some very violent elements.
8/13/17, 8:55 PM

Some of them in power. Sessions should smash these lib municipalities allowing this to go on. Didn't we learn from the civil rights era? Selma and all that?

Unknown said...

"The popular white supremacist site Daily Stormer called Trump’s remarks “really good,” noting that he “didn’t attack us.” They were also pleased he ignored a question about white supremacists after making his statement."

Trump comments were good. He didn’t attack us. He just said the nation should come together. Nothing specific against us.

He said that we need to study why people are so angry, and implied that there was hate… on both sides!

So he implied the antifa are haters.

There was virtually no counter-signaling of us at all.

He said he loves us all.

Also refused to answer a question about White Nationalists supporting him.

No condemnation at all.

When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room.

Really, really good.

God bless him.

Char Char Binks said...

There are no opposing sides in Madison. The only reason the Occupy folks didn't get into any brawls is that they had no one to oppose them, aside from a handful of Republican legislators from Actual Wisconsin, whom they did their best to harass. This was very disappointing to some the rowdier protesters, and they were again let down during their various Thug Lives Matter festivities, starting with Trayvon and including convicted armed home invader Tony Robinson Jr.

Lem said...

Mayhem in Seattle now.

Richard said...

Whatever Fields' motivation was, his defense can show the Reginald Denny footage.
Problem is, the left needs a villain and the right needs a sin-eater to cleanse them from assertions the right is all like that.

Henry said...

The Righties had the permit to be there. The Lefties didn't.

For all the talk about first amendment principles in this thread, you don't need a permit from the government to be somewhere. You need a permit to march.

The fascists had a permit to march. The antifascists came to the march.

And "Righties"? The guys that had the permit to march showed up with Nazi and Confederate flags. Claim them if you want.

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

And how does this prove that the Lefties started the violence?

Please stop being so thick! Please.....

If you show up unlawfully with the express intent of shutting down a lawful assembly of your fellow citizens, that is violence.

When you act to subvert the constitutional rights of your fellow citizens by massing against them armed with weapons, that's violence!

I'm done here with you for the evening. If this doesn't sink in, I have no idea what will or possibly can.

Henry said...

You do realize a woman is dead and multiple people injured by the guy in the car. Yes?

The Vault Dweller said...

@Char Char Binks

The only reason the Occupy folks didn't get into any brawls is that they had no one to oppose them,

There aren't brawls at left wing rallies because the right has no desire to disrupt them and instigate violence there. There were no fights at Bernie rallies or Hillary rallies during the primary and general, because the right wasn't there. (Though to be fair no one was at Hillary rallies unless they were getting a free concert in exchange)

YoungHegelian said...

@Henry,

The antifascists came to the march.

No. You do not have the right to assemble with intent to riot. The Antifa clowns came armed, Henry. They didn't come & lock arms like the lefty clergymen did. That's "showing up to the march". That's not what the Antifa crowd did. Big difference.

Crimso said...

"Of course, it would be nice if we could some better poster-boys for the First Amendment than the Klan and the Neo-Nazis."

Little Sisters of the Poor?

AReasonableMan said...

Fabi said...
So you have no clue about their financial condition


You and I both know that something has gone seriously wrong in rural white America. If you want to ignore this that is your right, but it does make you look foolish.

Tyrone Slothrop said...

ARM keeps telling us how the people of Charlottesville didn't want a right-wing demonstration in their town, and that this in some wise justifies the "fascists'" First-Amendment rights being abridged, not to mention their being met with baseball bats.

The people of my state don't want millions of illegal Mexicans flooding communities and overwhelming our infrastructure. Thanks for the permission to go at them, ARM.

AReasonableMan said...

Henry said...
You do realize a woman is dead and multiple people injured by the guy in the car. Yes?


No. Violence only comes from the left.

Unknown said...

"And "Righties"? The guys that had the permit to march showed up with Nazi and Confederate flags. Claim them if you want."

And they had really good guns too.

n.n said...

the right needs a sin-eater to cleanse them from assertions the right is all like that

No, judge them by the content of their character, not the "color of their skin". The left-right paradigm has a relative meaning in individual nations. In America, the conservatives represent the center. The individual-oriented movements (e.g. libertarian) are the right. The socialist, fascists/antifascists, [class] diversitists, abortionists, monopolists, anti-nativists, etc. are all on the left.

There may be a real problem, but only because the left has managed to normalize institutional racism, sexism, "=", etc., and they retain a perception of good faith through redistributive change and premier public platforms.

The Vault Dweller said...

@Crimson

Little Sisters of the Poor?

Not that part of the 1st amendment silly, the free speech part. Plus when it comes to the religion parts all the cool kids know that the only real important part is the establishment one, not the free exercise part.

AReasonableMan said...

Tyrone Slothrop said...
ARM keeps telling us how the people of Charlottesville didn't want a right-wing demonstration in their town


Correct. Everything else is a product of your imagination.

YoungHegelian said...

@Henry,

You do realize a woman is dead and multiple people injured by the guy in the car. Yes?

Yes, henry, we've been discussing that topic for the past two days! Did you read any of those threads or did you just drop into this one to drop some pearls of your wisdom upon us?

We're still trying to figure out if that was murder or an attempted escape & self-defense gone wrong. I think it was second degree, but I also think he'll walk because the jury will not be able to move past reasonable doubt that it was a panicked self-defense. YMMV.

Unknown said...

"You do realize a woman is dead and multiple people injured by the guy in the car. Yes?"

Apparently she deserved it.

chuck said...

The proposal to remove the statue was a provocation. The alt-right showing up was a provocation responding to the first provocation. The ordering of the police to stand down was excitement to riot. The whole thing was a big bundle of politics which, unfortunately, we have to experience. This is what happens when a political party -- the Democrats -- is based on racial division. I have no idea how this will play out. I predicted that racial division would be encouraged by Obama, but I also predicted that it would be played out by now. I'm a lousy prophet.

Unknown said...

"We're still trying to figure out if that was murder or an attempted escape & self-defense gone wrong. I think it was second degree, but I also think he'll walk because the jury will not be able to move past reasonable doubt that it was a panicked self-defense."

He meant to say, "Nah we don't care about the dead leftist bitch, she deserved it. We really just want to talk about if our Nazi boy will get off scott free."

Fabi said...

"You and I both know that something has gone seriously wrong in rural white America."

Do you mean they're trying to act like the big cities with all the murders and drug overdoses?

AReasonableMan said...

chuck said...
The proposal to remove the statue was a provocation


Bullshit. If people don't want a fucking statue in their park they have every right to get rid of the fucking statue. Grow up and stop being such a whiner.

YoungHegelian said...

@Unknown,

He meant to say, "Nah we don't care about the dead leftist bitch, she deserved it. We really just want to talk about if our Nazi boy will get off scott free."

Did you translate that using your Random House English to Bitch dictionary?

Unknown said...

Ohhhh now ARM, you know that statue is worth at least 10 dead leftists, too bad their Nazi boy only got one.

chuck said...

Sorry, ARM, removing the statue was a considered political play. Are you naive, or just stupid.

mockturtle said...

PB, I find it hard to believe that the average house in Seattle is worth $700. I doubt you could even rent a room for the night for that.

AReasonableMan said...

Fabi said...
Do you mean they're trying to act like the big cities


As Titus and 3PB will be happy to tell you, the big coastal are cities are doing great. They are the wealth generators of the nation. Rural America, not so much. Now it may be that the system is rigged against rural people but the rational economists will tell you that the highly distributed way that money was made in the last century is no longer maximally efficient and the cities now offer opportunities for wealth generation that the middle of the country will never match. As a consequence, the smart people move to the cities to find their fortune and it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle, just like every other economically advanced country.

AReasonableMan said...

Even if Machiavelli rose from the grave and wrote the decree himself, it is still the right of the burghers of Charlottesville to decide what fucking statues they put up in their own fucking park.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

Absent the plan to remove the statue of Robt. E. Lee, Charlotte would be business as usual today. I blame the City leadership. Dumb idea, rewriting history. Dumb and dangerous.

Big Mike said...

@Henry, one doesn't have "claim" a group in order to be appalled at the lack of police protection provided to that group. Our Constitution and laws protect the reprehensible every bit as much as they protect the pure in heart. That's what equal protection under the law is all about.

One group showed up yesterday with Nazi flags but following the letter and even spirit of the law. Another showed up to foment violence and applied Nazi tactics to prevent the first group's peaceful exercise of their First Amendment rights. However reprehensible the first group may be, surely you see that the second group is even more reprehensible? You may claim them if you want, and in fact I gather you already have.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Mock,

You've sussed out a chink in my alpha-ness, I have a phobia of the shorthand for $1000.

'G' is generally understood.

But, I'm used to 'M', which is typically misunderstood to mean million (which is actually 'MM').

Anywho, if your point is that I suck:

We can agree to agree.

chuck said...

Yes, ARM, but why did they decide to take down the statue? Votes, perhaps? To rally black folk to the cause? Do you think blacks will be more or less influential in the city after this? It was a play for power and politics all the way down.

hombre said...

"80% of the people had semi-automatic weapons...."

It is evident from the myriad of photos of the events that this is a lie. It is also clear that not a shot was fired by these "scary" gun-wielders.

Is it even possible for Democrat politicians to tell the truth or for the leftmedia to notice when they lie?

tcrosse said...

All because Hillary Clinton lost the election. Maybe they should have nominated somebody else.

Fabi said...

That's a very myopic view, ARM. My line of work is private equity, predominantly in the southeast -- an average of fifteen deals per year. The minimum outlay is five million; others exceed fifty million. Some of it is in the larger cities, e.g., Atlanta, Nashville, but plenty are in smaller towns, and a few in rural areas. These are all technology deals -- IT, bio, aerospace. There is serious money being made away from the coasts -- to suggest otherwise only displays ignorance.

Unknown said...

"One group showed up yesterday with Nazi flags but following the letter and even spirit of the law. Another showed up to foment violence and applied Nazi tactics to prevent the first group's peaceful exercise of their First Amendment rights. However reprehensible the first group may be, surely you see that the second group is even more reprehensible? You may claim them if you want, and in fact I gather you already have."

Interesting that you seem to know the intent of the Lefties but seem to draw a blank on the intent of the Nazi's.

Dr Weevil said...

If (as seems likely) the Taliban was supported by 50.1% of the people in the pertinent area, was it perfectly OK for them to destroy the Bamiyan Buddhas? If (as seems plausible) 50.1% of Germans agreed that books by certain authors deserved to be burned, were Nazi bookburnings therefore perfectly OK? For both questions, you may answer in legal, moral, or ethical terms, but be specific!

Unknown said...

"All because Hillary Clinton lost the election."

WTF? I thought you were a reasonable commenter, but Jesus, what complete utter shit you just posted.

AReasonableMan said...

The irony here is that at one time Northern Aggressors such as Chuck would have been appalled at the idea of Charlottesville erecting a statue to General E. Lee and harrumphed loudly about how it was all political.

antiphone said...

The proposal to remove the statue was a provocation.

Is it really to much to ask that conservatives use the democratic process.

AReasonableMan said...

Fabi said...
That's a very myopic view


Well, then, they've got nothing to complain about and the whiny bitches should get a proper job rather than waste their time harassing the happy and well adjusted burghers of Charlottesville.

chuck said...

@ARM AFAICT, Chuck has yet to comment on this thread.

The problem with these political ploys is that they work, e.g., the Boston Massacre. So I expect we will see more of them as the Democrats struggle to regain power and influence. Interesting times, but I would rather a bit more boring.

Jack Wayne said...

The police stand down in California, Ferguson, Baltimore, Charlottesville, etc. The lack of law and order causes vigilantes to emerge. Unexpectedly.

Mutaman said...

When commentators and Althouse are to the right of the New York Post, that's saying something.

http://nypost.com/2017/08/13/trump-badly-missed-the-mark-on-charlottesville/

Guildofcannonballs said...

"Apparently she deserved it."

She deserves to have her presumed wishes, that discussion be only about blacks harmed, not whites like she, be honored by all of us.

How man blacks died yesterday, racist? Focusing on one white women when millions of people of color are killed and/or discriminated against makes you worse than Hitler, serious.

William said...

Trifecta: Antifa assholes, ineffectual policing, white supremacists, and the cherry on top, a panicky twenty year old kid behind the wheel of a car......I reserve the right to be judgmental and morally superior to all the parties involved in this.......I don't have any strong feelings about statues of Robert E. Lee, but people who get so hyper, pro or con about such an issue, are damned fools.

Earnest Prole said...

There are perhaps ten thousand people in this country on the left and right respectively whose deepest fantasy is to kill each other. They have nothing to do with the politics peacefully practiced by hundreds of millions of people. As with all violent, squalling children, "who started it first" is irrelevant and a diversion, so to hell with them.

chuck said...

> Is it really to much to ask that conservatives use the democratic process.

Of course, but that doesn't make it wise, or helpful to anybody. But I am happy to see that you are committed to letting Trump have his day, I would have thought otherwise.

Guildofcannonballs said...

As with Kopechne, if this white person were alive, I bet she would agree better it was her harmed than a(nother) person of color. I won't sit back and let anyone post-humously libel her as a racist white who placed her own life above people's of colors.

Shameless.

Fabi said...

"Well, then, they've got nothing to complain about and the whiny bitches should get a proper job rather than waste their time harassing the happy and well adjusted burghers of Charlottesville."

Exactly how do you know they don't have "proper jobs", ARM?

MaxedOutMama said...

Well, after seeing the video posted here the picture becomes more, not less confused. Certainly the guy fled from a mob when he drove backward. What happened when he struck the car(s) in front, with people intervening, is less clear. It could have been intentional desire to harm. It could have been panic. It might even have been a gas-pedal-instead-of-brake-pedal thing. I can't tell at all.

It does make me distrust the eye-witness accounts who omitted the attack on the car by the thugs with bats, which was an out-and-out attack.

From press descriptions I had not realized that the guy was driving on the street where cars normally do. This makes things harder to analyze. Thanks to those who posted different video clip links.

mockturtle said...

Just finished watching football--my beloved Seahawks winning handily--and it occurred to me that, while I root passionately for my team, I never want to see anyone on the other team get hurt. And the players afterward shake hands and exchange jerseys with their opponents. Good sportsmanship after a hard fought game. Why can't we be that way with our political opponents? I fear the left would be the side that refused to shake hands.

Snark said...

Comment at WaPo: "Nothing says "I need a hit of Viagra" like guns, camo and a garden torch."

LOL. I hope I remember to laugh at that again when I wake up in the morning!

Big Mike said...

Interesting that you seem to know the intent of the Lefties but seem to draw a blank on the intent of the Nazi's.

The antifa made their intent to foment violence perfectly clear ahead of time, and as far as I can tell from YouTube videos and on the scene eyewitnesses, the violence that occurred was in fact initiated by them. Moreover the police could have kept the two groups apart, but chose not to. The intent of the neo-Nazis is unknown, but if It was to appear to be the more reasonable and law-abiding next to the lefty mob, the mayor of Charlottesville, and Governor McAuliffe, they succeeded.

AReasonableMan said...

Too many fucking chucks.

Henry said...

YoungHegelian -- And why try to figure that out now, in a blog comments section, based on fragments of video and disregard for eye-witnesses? I have no interest in the arm chair forensics. A man drove a car at a high rate of speed into a crowd.

When I first heard the news I hoped that it was accidental, as if that would make it better. But a woman would still be dead and many people critically injured.

Was the driver panicked into driving his car into a crowd of pedestrians? Maybe he was, but we don't know yet. It would take the terrorism tag off the incident, but it won't bring the dead woman back to life.

I see the frustration with easy media narratives that drives a lot of the commentary here; it is something that gets to me too. But the counter narrative is equally speculative, and, bizarrely to me, consists of excuses for the guy behind the wheel.

AReasonableMan said...

Fabi said...
Exactly how do you know they don't have "proper jobs",


I read the newspaper. You should try it. They are on the interwebs these days and are very informative.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

OK, I can' take it any more:

[Could someone note that this murdered SJW's image has been released for quite a while?]

[[Even if ya cons don't want ta be explicit re the source of your new found concern (white gal down) re the evilness of the white driver who plowed down a SJW, it's now ok to go down that path, less explicitly.]]

[[[Maybe, ya need to wait for Althouse, or DJT, or whoever is your mental traffic cop.]]]



Carry on. [[[[Sad!]]]]

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

The idea that it is the job of the Police to prevent violence and keep us safe is, when you think about it, nonsense.

Sure, the Police have their motto "To Serve and Protect." They are civil servants. Bureaucrats. And bureaucrats gonna bureaucrat. Make their job important so they get a bigger budget next year. More people on the payroll, another supervisory position opens up.

But the hard fact is, the Cops don't really got your back. They cannot. What? You want a personal bodyguard 24/7? For everybody in town? Ain't gonna happen.

Wake up and get real. Take responsibility for your own protection. That could begin with don't go lookin for trouble. If it looks like their might be a riot, smart guy would stay away.

The famous Libertarian Xavier Onasis said it best. "When it comes to your personal safety, you must..." - Xavier Onasis

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

ahem. save your own asses.

PeterK said...

why didn't the police intervene?
Because the mayor told them to stand down.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-13/charlottesville-police-called-when-violence-began-%E2%80%9Cwe%E2%80%99re-leaving-it%E2%80%99s-too-dangerous%E2%80%9D

Fabi said...

The newspaper said that none of the alt-righters had proper jobs? That's quite impressive, ARM, and required some serious investigation! Do you have a link?

iowan2 said...

The proposal to remove the statue was a provocation.

Is it really to much to ask that conservatives use the democratic process.

8/13/17, 10:03 PM

Absolutely! Assemble to seek redress of their grievance. So you support the Nazi's. Good to know.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

I see it's blame the victim day here at Althouse. The police are not required to put themselves in the middle of every dangerous situation that comes along. Has there ever been an open carry demonstration in Madison? Apples and oranges.

MaxedOutMama said...

This whole thing is very disturbing. And very confusing. I still can't quite understand how the whole protest/counter-protest thing played out administratively, much less the vehicular manslaughter.

antiphone said...

The intent of the neo-Nazis is unknown...

It's outreach and Trump supporters look like easy marks, follow the leader, no questions asked.

Guildofcannonballs said...

I hope Sen. Warren points out this didn't happen because of one person.

This guy arrested didn't build that car, the government combined with employed Detroit workers did that. And he didn't pave the streets that he used to drive his car into the crowd. Taxes and local politicians and government administrators and working workers at work did that. No taxes, no roads here, nobody run over in a Dodge muscle car.

We all, all of us, were driving this vehicle, enabling it through takings we justify at our own peril.

It does take nuance to understand the only solution is a drastic increase in all forms of taxation, currently in existence or potential new revenue-discoveries also.

Although too ironic for the epistemically-closed, and greatly despite the title, the feature motion picture Dunb and Dumber starring the legendary Jim Carrey was absolutely spot on economically: you can spend every last dime you can get your hands on or charge to the generation into eternity as long as you write an IOU. Too profound for most to comprehend, this method of money management guarantees peace, prosperity, and liberty for all. Only Hitler, Little Hitlers, and Rich Mellon Scaife oppose this common sense, supported fully by over 97% of experts.

AReasonableMan said...

Fabi said...
My line of work is private equity, predominantly in the southeast -- an average of fifteen deals per year. The minimum outlay is five million; others exceed fifty million. Some of it is in the larger cities, e.g., Atlanta, Nashville, but plenty are in smaller towns, and a few in rural areas. These are all technology deals -- IT, bio, aerospace. There is serious money being made away from the coasts


This oddly dovetails with 3PB's post earlier about most doctors and lawyers not understanding that they are not genuinely rich.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Heather!

How many non-ugly dudes can't relate to intimately knowing a Heather, or two?

Hits home, now.

I'm guessing that 'round here 'Heather' sympathy means somethin' more personal than 'Reneshia' would. I make this guess because some folks are offended when folks say that black lives matter. [BTW, being fussy opposed to saying that BLM, means you're a racist. Check the OED if ya aren't sure 'bout that.]

Anywho, know I'm remembering good times: H&R.


Carry on.

MaxedOutMama said...

I have to agree with Henry. If the driver was intentionally trying to kill/injure people, then it's terrible. But if it was simply a situation out of control in which someone panicked, then objectively, the result is not better.

I'm struggling with the suspicion that the goal of these things, from the local government's POV, hasn't often been to create a situation in which further protests MAY be banned on the grounds of public safety.

Whatever the totality of the circumstances, what went down in Charlottesville is disturbing on multiple levels. The car incident is just one of them.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

"This oddly dovetails with 3PB's post earlier about most doctors and lawyers not understanding that they are not genuinely rich."

Plus, IIRC Fabi has that Corsa image, but doesn't actually race.

Sorta embarrassing. Fake-ish.

IMHO.

antiphone said...

I'm struggling with the suspicion that the goal of these things, from the local government's POV, hasn't often been to create a situation in which further protests MAY be banned on the grounds of public safety.

Why don't you ask yourself what a 20 year old from Ohio was doing there at all. He must really care about that Robert E Lee statue, huh?

Guildofcannonballs said...

"As with all violent, squalling children, "who started it first" is irrelevant and a diversion, so to hell with them."

Pushing grandma out of the way of a speeding bus is the same, exactly, as pushing her to steal her purse. Only unnuanced don't get it, like the scotUS and the fantasy writers of "Justified" with their preschool wishcasting lines about who pulled first.

We can all agree the Declaration put no blame on Brittan for Independance, like some toddlers would have done!

ihasch said...

A few months back there was a precursor of sorts called the Battle of Berkeley. In that event the alt-right/alt-lite demonstrators got a permit, were told to disarm and then antifa showed up, the police disappeared and it turned into a running street battle with videos all over youtube. Some of the violence was serious, including assault with deadly weapons, but luckily no one died and it was predicted that eventually someone would be killed. A second event happened at Berkeley a few weeks later, antifa did not show up, the police actually stayed and there was no violence.

We do not know exactly what preciptated the car incident. Could have been premeditated. It could have been triggered by a violent confrontation at the event. Or it could have been self-defense if the guy was in his car, got surrounding by an antifa mob and was trying to get away. Point is call the righwing demonstrators whatever names you want but if antifa showed up they were there to cause violence.

Fabi said...

"This oddly dovetails with 3PB's post earlier about most doctors and lawyers not understanding that they are not genuinely rich."

That's an interesting point, ARM. Very few in that group are wealthy. Affluent? Sure. Wealthy enough to risk the exposure of my deals? Rarely. I have two surgeons -- both retired -- and one trial lawyer as investors. In my practice, "wealthy" starts at twenty-five million liquid.

pacwest said...

"But the counter narrative is equally speculative, and, bizarrely to me, consists of excuses for the guy behind the wheel."

I've noticed that too. And I'm shocked by it.

Antifa is despicable, and I can see the case for them having blood on their hands, but they were not driving the car.

If police don't find a way to quelch these situations, we are going to look like a third world country. Time for them to forget about the optics and come down hard and fast on the troublemakers. I'd like to think that the problem is a lack of political will, but am worried that it is the reality of a political agenda. That would be a bad thing.

chickelit said...

This oddly dovetails with 3PB's post earlier about most doctors and lawyers not understanding that they are not genuinely rich.

Jelly has embarrassing wealth. I presume that's why he flaunts it here from time to time. Conspicuity.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Oh, the Corsa image is gone.

At least he's courteous enough to keep the name.

Unlike me. And, others.

Achilles said...

ARM said...

Now it may be that the system is rigged against rural people

In Washington State Seattle runs Olympia and the rural parts of the state have to deal with insane growth management regulations. In addition manufacturing, like Alcoa for example which is now out of business, face extreme regulation and taxation that companies like Boeing are exempted from.

Why is it the giant megacorp in Seattle doesn't have to pay the taxes the smaller corporations in rural parts of the state have to pay?

Why is it that i Chelan County WA. you have to have a 5 acre parcel to build a house? Because Seattle says so.

It was really awesome when the Seattle Politicians showed up and told the farmers on the east side of the state they had to build full code housing for seasonal workers who worked on their farms.

So yes the cities are rigging the system against the rural areas. There are numerous examples of urban busy bodies using government to tilt the scales. I doubt we are the only state with such issues.

chickelit said...

If a guy like Terry McAuffle can give voting rights to felons in order to swing elections, why should we doubt that he ordered law enforcement to back down and protect felons? He is, ipso facto, a priori, sine qua non, anti-law enforcement.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

BTW, I lie in these threads.

Have always said so.

mockturtle said...

This oddly dovetails with 3PB's post earlier about most doctors and lawyers not understanding that they are not genuinely rich.

I think he said 'successful', ARM, not rich. And of course I would disagree, as anyone who gets through medical school or law school and passes the boards has succeeded, in my book.

Big Mike said...

Why don't you ask yourself what a 20 year old from Ohio was doing there at all. He must really care about that Robert E Lee statue, huh?

And if he does, what's it to you? Who put you in charge of deciding which statues people get to like?

Unknown said...

"Why don't you ask yourself what a 20 year old from Ohio was doing there at all. He must really care about that Robert E Lee statue, huh?"

Didn't his mother say he was there for Trump? Or because of Trump? She said she didn't know a thing about the Nazi stuff, lol.

Guildofcannonballs said...

"Why can't we be that way with our political opponents?"

Those aborted can't be that way, or any way, because they are dead.

Achilles said...

Not one leftist here has condemned the violent Antifa mob. Not a single one.

You are not here in good faith. But we already knew you were essentially enemies of freedom.

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

Ach,

We still got a supper regressive tax code. Which happens to be the best way to enhance economic growth, i.e. taxing consumption, but not capital.

If Seattle (WA) can keep that we'd be better than fine.

Even better yet: get rid of the loons on the city council and ship bums to CA.


Bonus: it's easy (state reg) to have a conceal permit.

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